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Finally... => Creative Projects => Topic started by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 01, 2011, 07:20:32 am

Title: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 01, 2011, 07:20:32 am
What is the Zombocalypse?
The Zombie Apocalypse. Z Alpha. A zombie game, inspired by the gameplay of Liberal Crime Squad, with graphics and audio, and playable in a browser window. The initial game release will lose a lot of the LCS scale and will focus instead on creating satisfying action-roguelike combat and exploration with a sole survivor, in an urban setting. I hope to organically expand from there into a more strategic dimension after a core solo game is in place.

(http://www.jonathansfox.com/ZSS/zss_preview_screenshot2.png)

Friday Dev Log
January 20th, 2012 - This week I fixed a couple of bugs, then got started on the next core gameplay element -- melee attacks and zombies hitting you. This went pretty quickly because I'd already implemented it in the earlier build, seen in the latest preview video, so it finished up fairly early, including a completely new weapon (the knife). Once player death was in the game, I added a reset button and tweaked some numbers to play with balance and feel for the game, such as making zombies handle difficult terrain much more slowly than humans, making zombies sturdier, and slowing down your move speed.

I then enabled door opening, and added door closing by holding shift when bumping into the door. I'm not sure if that's the best way to handle it; maybe clicking the door, or having shift be a global interaction-on-bump key, complete with icons over things you can interact with while holding it (push/pull icon over a piece of furniture, open/close icons over doors, etc). I have to think about that some more. I moved on to flashing the player and zombies when they take damage, which I think is a small thing that really helps the feel of the game. The videos showed zombies flickering briefly when hit, but I prefer this. I then added a minimap in the bottom of the screen, which shows a scrolling view of the local area of the city you're in, and remembers what tiles you have explored, so you can start filling out your map of the area. The underlying map used by the minimap can later be used in a larger map too.

After serious consideration, I think that point-and-shoot isn't very compatible with the way I'm physically presenting the world, and the very tile-based gameplay I'm going for, so I started to think about other ways to target enemies of your choice. The last thing I did for the game was put the ability to click a zombie and force all attacks to go for that target. The lock-on is only lost if the zombie dies or drops out of range or view; you can shoot past other zombies to target one in the back.

January 13th, 2012 - I started the week by working to optimize the lighting and field of view calculations, substituting a faster but more restrictive algorithm. Performance gains seem to be good, but I'm still testing on a relatively fast machine, and will need to hear how the game is running on other computers as well. I added zombies, zombie movement and hunting, window breaking, and shooting. I needed a break from just re-implementing old features, so I also added a crosshair that shows on the currently targeted zombie if the attack button is being held.

The previous overlay for bullet trails actually used a map-sized bitmap in memory that was written to and erased from on a frame-by-frame basis, which was forgivably clunky on a small map, but proved completely unfeasible on the huge map I'm currently using. The new tracer fire looks almost the same, but should run much faster -- the only major difference is that the layering has the gunshots drawing on top of the player and the zombies, rather than the characters drawing over the gunshots. I liked the other way more, but I'll need to change how the characters are drawn to support moving them off the map layer.

Of the things in the preview video that aren't yet re-implemented, the major remaining features are melee attacks, blood, door opening, and items. Weapons are only half-made -- they can shoot, and track ammo, but aren't in the world and don't interact with the HUD properly.

January 6th, 2012 - I'm in the middle of extending the new engine to support the large open world of the previous engine and integrate the city-generator for the first time. The game is partially disassembled and I'm going through it slowly putting features back in -- I've done this twice now, because my inexperience with engine architecture keeps catching up with me. Many things, such as enemy AI, combat, and opening doors, are currently inoperable, but can be re-added fairly easily. The city generator is now integrated for the first time, and one sample building is being loaded in. I'm not satisfied with the way the buildings are interacting with the street layout, and have been thinking of different ways to arrange buildings around streets.

Friday Alpha Build - January 20th, 2012
www.jonathansfox.com/ZSS/Z_Alpha_Week3.swf
- Click the screen to give it keyboard focus. Click enemies to mark them as a preferred target.
- Use WASD, number pad, or arrow keys to move.
- F to toggle flashlight. No flashlight makes you super stealthy.
- Hold shift when moving into an open doorway to close the door instead.
- Hold space to attack, or bump into enemies to melee them. 1-3 to switch your primary weapon.
- Press escape to reset the game if you die.


Screenshots
December 14th, 2011 - New Sprites (http://www.jonathansfox.com/ZSS/zss_preview_screenshot2.png) (shown above)
December 9th, 2011 - Lighting, Blood, Death (http://www.jonathansfox.com/ZSS/zss_preview_screenshot.png)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on March 01, 2011, 07:33:34 am
Alright, thread round two, start!
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Supercharazad on March 01, 2011, 07:48:42 am
INB4ACCIDENTAL/VIRALDELETION
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Miko19 on March 01, 2011, 09:08:43 am
What about Easter Egg characters, like the M16 toting 'nam vet' Bill?  :D
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Majestic7 on March 01, 2011, 09:16:45 am
A smoking zombie that tries to give survivors French kisses?

Will the infection have a backstory? Is it a virus or something occult?

How about making the game randomize it whether the zombification is biological or occult. Then there could be some skills - like science and occult/sorcery - that are helpful with the right scenario and useless with the wrong one... and you can't know which one the game is about till after you've played a while. These skills could mainly be used for small bonus stuff, like, I don't know - developing immunisation to the infection with scientific skills or building anti-zombie amulets with occultism that grant defense bonus vs zeds in combat.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Zangi on March 01, 2011, 09:22:52 am
How bout... a choose your own zombie game?

Rate it with difficulty level... :P   Add more abilities/perks to zombies, increase difficulty!  Fun for the nub and veteran alike?!
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Rolan7 on March 01, 2011, 10:47:07 am
Sounds exciting!  I'm eager to see what you come up with, and maybe participate (though my flash-fu is my weakest fu).  From what you described, it's a refreshingly survival-oriented game.  I love Left4Dead to death but it doesn't really convey the desperation of an apocalypse, once you realize you have infinite ammo and the survivors are permanently immune (even to death, basically).
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Strife26 on March 01, 2011, 10:56:11 am
I'm still interested!
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Deon on March 01, 2011, 12:27:58 pm
What will it be, a 2d art based game? If so, I would like to participate in spriting. ;)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Gatleos on March 01, 2011, 05:54:32 pm
What will it be, a 2d art based game? If so, I would like to participate in spriting. ;)
Same here, I need practice.
Title: .
Post by: Yannanth on March 01, 2011, 08:59:31 pm
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Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Innominate on March 01, 2011, 11:07:57 pm
I think that, looking at the win conditions Jonathan has planned, that may not be a problem. A few of them are amenable to being solved piecemeal, especially founding a permanent settlement. Even flying to Madagascar and curing the zombie virus could work nicely like that; for the plane ending, clear out an airport, get a plane, repair it (assuming it is damaged, which, for the sake of the narrative, I think it should be), get enough fuel for a long flight, enough food and equipment to let you kick off life in Madagascar and getting a pilot or teaching someone.

As for curing the zombie virus, it could also be broken up into stages with some creativity. Maybe you need to capture zombies and experiment on them, get equipment from labs (possibly find the research from ground zero if it's a "science gone awry" start scenario), devote time to the research and contact immune survivors to get anecdotal evidence (or experiment on them for the "saved the world but at what cost" trope).

What type of gameplay will it have, by the way? I assume a top-down perspective, but will it be LCS-style turn-based, tactical turn-based (e.g. Fallout Tactics, Ogre Tactics, etc.), or real-time shooter?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: GTM on March 01, 2011, 11:57:39 pm
Quote
This should be a key principle in all game design, I believe as a gamer, and it should be present in this game in some way, shape or form

And all music should have a pop hook so everyone can appreciate it.  And all movies should be simple with lots of action scenes for mass appeal.  Your advice is great for earning revenue, but not necessarily for making a game people will still be talking about 5-10 years from now.

DF and LCS are not hard at all, they just have gnarly graphics and unusual UIs that turn some people off.  The actual gameplay is easy unless you impose challenges on yourself or play on a hard difficulty.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: flap on March 02, 2011, 05:47:44 am
Good luck with your project ! I am looking forward seeing the result !

And this gave me the desire to keep working on my simulation spreadsheet (my post was deleted with last thread, but luckily I made the same in another forum : http://forums.zafehouse.com/index.php/topic,445.0.html ).

I plan to add the following mecanism :
- Before the outbreak people work (to bring in food, maintain various things). At present time, even without outbreak, people would starve

- New causes of death :
-- Crushed in the rush to get supplies, leave town
-- Cholera
-- Deshydratation

- New activities :
-- kill the infected (but not turned into zombies), with a chance to kill uninfected one.
-- Activelly search zombies
-- Maintain order (to avoid stamped where supplies is, and fight riots)
-- Gather information (on where zombies are -more efficient to avoir them, more efficient to find them, where supplies, weapons and medicines are)
-- Riots (against killing the infected and quarantine)
-- Waste management (avoids cholera)
-- Reconstruction of basic network system

- Basic description of the outer world (out of the infected area)
-- Based on awareness of the infection, would send supplies, quarantine, army
-- Make these intervention discrete (not every day, but once a  week, or every few days).
-- Question : should I make soldiers sent in town another class ? Or normal citizens with weapons ?

- Some city services
-- Electricity (exact use to be defined)
-- Water supply
-- Waste disposal
-- Communication (lets outerworld know the situation on what happends in infected area, and maybe inside improves awareness of problem and general knowledge of Zd's,...)
-- Food supply
-- Transportation

- Concepts :
-- I might add the awareness of the infection (in the population and outerworld). It would have a large impact on each others reaction according to fighting infection, surviving or trying to keep working, supplies sent,...
-- Also, I wont model group size, but might add something such as social cohesion.

Whouhou ! that's a lot of things ! But the beauty with work on a spreadsheet is that it is 10 times quicker to test something than when creating a video game.

Maybe some ideas coming for you Jonathan ! (Even if you don't look at the initial time, at least having an idea how things might have happened ...)
Title: .
Post by: Yannanth on March 02, 2011, 11:00:14 am
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Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Sithlordz on March 03, 2011, 04:17:08 pm
snip

i agree with what yann is saying here; the lack of goals is primarily why i play adventure mode in DF a lot more than fortress - it requires a lot less intellectual involvement and planning compared to the task of creating a working settlement, and i find it rather difficult to motivate myself for the latter task without a real reason to do so.  and i never pay attention to any self-imposed goals i set (because i'm a big n00b :<), so every fortress just fizzles out after i get the basics like farming and brewing working.  there actually IS an overarching objective in LCS, so every fascist and GODDAMN CONSERVATIVE SCUMBAG FROM HELL A BAD PLACE that i dispose of feels like a 'step', rather than an unfocused flail as in the fortress of dwarves.  i am quite happy with just the general goal of 'liberalise everyone' that is present in LCS, but i wanted to step in to defend yann's idea: it's not a commercial step, it's just something to keep people playing and help them discover some of the really cool shit present in bay 12's games.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 03, 2011, 05:23:45 pm
Will the infection have a backstory? Is it a virus or something occult?

How about making the game randomize it whether the zombification is biological or occult. Then there could be some skills - like science and occult/sorcery - that are helpful with the right scenario and useless with the wrong one... and you can't know which one the game is about till after you've played a while. These skills could mainly be used for small bonus stuff, like, I don't know - developing immunisation to the infection with scientific skills or building anti-zombie amulets with occultism that grant defense bonus vs zeds in combat.

How bout... a choose your own zombie game?

Rate it with difficulty level... :P   Add more abilities/perks to zombies, increase difficulty!  Fun for the nub and veteran alike?!

I like these ideas. Sometimes you need a witch or a priest... sometimes you need a scientist. What other kinds of zombie origin stories exist?

Sounds exciting!  I'm eager to see what you come up with, and maybe participate (though my flash-fu is my weakest fu).

What will it be, a 2d art based game? If so, I would like to participate in spriting. ;)

Same here, I need practice.

I appreciate the desire to help, but since this is necessarily a for-profit game (I'm seeking sponsorship money and advertising revenue; I have no intention of charging for the game), I'm hesitant to outsource any art or other tasks. I need to make money so that I can pay rent and continue to be an independent game developer after this game is complete.

It will be 2d art; I haven't decided how much of a mix of vector art and raster art it'll use. Vector graphics is the style of graphics you see in the simplified cartoony art style of most flash games. Raster graphics is the style of graphics you see in hand-crafted pixel art flash games and all games from the late 80s and early 90s. The images in the first post are (intentionally pixelated) raster art.

Piloting as a skill, you say?

One of the problems LCS has, I believe, is the lack of having a goal. There is the mammoth task of making America liberal of course, but it needs to be broken up into smaller tasks to make it easier for someone to get into.

For example, in this game, you maybe had to bomb a graveyard in the island or something via a sequence like the one in LCS. Do not take this idea to heart because it is clearly not thought out, but it's very important to think about this as a game developer in general.

The reason achievements and stuff have become so prevalent in modern video games is because they make the player feel like they must complete something. A fully open world would be terrible for this reason, and this is one of Dwarf Fortress's greatest downfalls in my opinion, to cite an example. I am able to understand it, but I just stop playing because I feel like I'm not really working towards something. This should be a key principle in all game design, I believe as a gamer, and it should be present in this game in some way, shape or form.

I generally agree. The Sims 3 is a fantastic example of an extremely open-ended game which uses shrewd game design to fill the game with direction and purpose; every Sim has a very ambitious life's goal, and you're perpetually beset by optional, non-intrusive, dynamically generated mini-quests you can accept or ignore. The nature of these quests is determined by what is happening right now in the world, your Sim's life goal, and your Sim's personality, making them seem relevant. I don't know for certain what I'll do about this in the game, but it's something I will be keeping in mind.

I think that, looking at the win conditions Jonathan has planned, that may not be a problem. A few of them are amenable to being solved piecemeal, especially founding a permanent settlement. Even flying to Madagascar and curing the zombie virus could work nicely like that; for the plane ending, clear out an airport, get a plane, repair it (assuming it is damaged, which, for the sake of the narrative, I think it should be), get enough fuel for a long flight, enough food and equipment to let you kick off life in Madagascar and getting a pilot or teaching someone.

As for curing the zombie virus, it could also be broken up into stages with some creativity. Maybe you need to capture zombies and experiment on them, get equipment from labs (possibly find the research from ground zero if it's a "science gone awry" start scenario), devote time to the research and contact immune survivors to get anecdotal evidence (or experiment on them for the "saved the world but at what cost" trope).

I would like to have the goals be pursued piecemeal, yes. I would also like to have some "discovery" of the goals; have the idea that this is achievable come up part way through the game. That leaves a challenge of what your initial goal is, beyond just stay alive.

What type of gameplay will it have, by the way? I assume a top-down perspective, but will it be LCS-style turn-based, tactical turn-based (e.g. Fallout Tactics, Ogre Tactics, etc.), or real-time shooter?

This is the #1 biggest design challenge I'm facing. The more complicated combat resolution gets, the longer it will take to implement and the more likely it will take time to make it fun and work out any kinks in the system. More complicated combat systems will also require more time working on content and map algorithms for the building interiors, and will increase the art demands. I've considered many different options, including real-time shooting, X-COM-style tactical battles, and LCS-style combat.

One possibility I'm kicking around is to focus on the strategic game and remove the tactical game entirely (perhaps add it in a sequel?), replacing it with an ultra-spartan system that doesn't show building interiors, but instead just shows a screen where you can see your character's status, with icons showing their ammunition and health. The game then simulates the fight abstractly in real-time, playing gunfire and zombie moans, and showing their ammunition tick down and kills rack up, and a number on the side showing the number of zombies remaining in the building ticking down. At the end, it tallies what was looted from the building and racks up experience for your squad. I'm confident that I can make this system fun to play with, and it will allow me to release the game sooner, which puts me at reduced financial risk.

Whouhou ! that's a lot of things ! But the beauty with work on a spreadsheet is that it is 10 times quicker to test something than when creating a video game.

Maybe some ideas coming for you Jonathan ! (Even if you don't look at the initial time, at least having an idea how things might have happened ...)

More ideas are always welcome!

You did good work on the spreadsheet before, it was fun to play with and interesting to see how things turned out with different assumptions. I hope all the new features work out well!
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Servant Corps on March 03, 2011, 06:19:31 pm
Quote
I like these ideas. Sometimes you need a witch or a priest... sometimes you need a scientist. What other kinds of zombie origin stories exist?

How about a third style of Zombification that mixes the two? Zombies would be essentially normal (or perhaps the "mentally insane") human beings in undeveloped third-world countries such as Haiti that were forcibly enslaved through the use of social engineering, neurotoxins, and hallucinogens. These zombies are essentially mindless brutes that do not recall anything and only serve to do hard labor. These Zombies have always existed in secret and served as a cheap and reliable labor supply, but there's always the fear that these zombies may rebel...

In this case, zombie infection would take a pretty long time to do, and I'm not sure if the zombies themselves would have the intellect to actually infect others.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on March 03, 2011, 06:24:12 pm
Quote
This is the #1 biggest design challenge I'm facing.

Personally, the "select your inputs and shake the box" abstraction of tactical gameplay only really stays fun for me if:

-There are updwards of 30 or 40 inputs to experiment with.
-There is a window of time where you can do something while the sim is running.

You could do a two-tiered development style, where in you focus on the strategic portion, get the abstraction working....and in stage two, you make the automated tactical portion optional, or allow the player to take control....and design the tactical module from that point on.

Quote
What other kinds of zombie origin stories exist?

Let's see....

Wrath of God. (Standard supernatural zombie.)
Hubris of Science. (Man-made virus.)
Nuclear Fallout. (Mind-melted human.)
Random Mutation. (Genetic Freak Mutation.)
Natural Disease. (Zombie virus.)
Zombie Master. (Voodoo Priests making legions of mindless slaves. See: Serpent and the Rainbow.)
Zombie Machines. (Not really true zombies, but I've always seen legions of automatons bent on killing much the same as zombies.)

Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 03, 2011, 07:02:08 pm
Quote
This is the #1 biggest design challenge I'm facing.

Personally, the "select your inputs and shake the box" abstraction of tactical gameplay only really stays fun for me if:

-There are updwards of 30 or 40 inputs to experiment with.
-There is a window of time where you can do something while the sim is running.

You could do a two-tiered development style, where in you focus on the strategic portion, get the abstraction working....and in stage two, you make the automated tactical portion optional, or allow the player to take control....and design the tactical module from that point on.

This approach would be more along the lines of your lead designer writing the GDD in Game Dev Story than the fully-featured eye candy of Gratuitous Space Battles. Fights would be short and the details left to the imagination so that I don't have to art up the building interiors or simulate spacial combat.

I am definitely planning on using some kind of abstraction at first, and working on the strategic layer before the tactical layer. The possibility I'm considering is to not implement a tactical layer at all for the game. That doesn't necessarily prevent doing a tactical layer in the future, after the game is released, and making a sequel that features tactical combat, but it does make a difference in how polished and interesting the abstraction should be. It also greatly affects how the weapons and skills that affect combat are designed, since it's absolutely crucial that they make sense and have perceivable impact on the game.

One of the other options is to stick more closely to how LCS does it, with RPG round-based combat. The challenge there is to adapt the text-based combat resolution to be more graphical, which may mean using older Japanese RPG conventions -- well, older compared to today, but much more modern compared to LCS! Another challenge is how to do building layouts and exploration. I'd like to make it so you have a clear sense of clearing out the map of Zombies (rather than infinite random encounters), without making you wonder why you can't just shoot the Zombies from several tiles away. Adhering to JRPG conventions again may alleviate that issue.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on March 03, 2011, 07:17:29 pm
Quote
This approach would be more along the lines of your lead designer writing the GDD in Game Dev Story than the fully-featured eye candy of Gratuitous Space Battles. Fights would be short and the details left to the imagination so that I don't have to art up the building interiors or simulate spacial combat.

Yeah, I know where you're coming from.

It's an issue of expectations, I guess. Which aren't sacrosanct but....when I think zombie survival, on any level, there's that positional situation. Surrounded by zombies, seeing your only escape route, yadda yadda.

So even if it's got this interesting strategic overview of a zombie apocalypse...the lack of seeing actual zombies and manuevering to me seems like a gaping black hole. Basically X-COM without the tactical battles...and that game is two equal parts awesome, strategic and tactical, neither of which makes a full game without the other.

Just some food for thought. Lots of different ideas about zombie games are going around now. Like Dead State focusing on the psychology and outcomes of the survivors rather than focusing on killing zombies.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 03, 2011, 08:13:10 pm
Yes, that makes sense, and I will definitely take your concerns into account.

Edit: Wow, that sounds so corporate. I just mean that I'm not at the point where I need to make a decision yet.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Innominate on March 03, 2011, 10:09:52 pm
I like these ideas. Sometimes you need a witch or a priest... sometimes you need a scientist. What other kinds of zombie origin stories exist?
All the resource you will ever need about zombies (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ZombieApocalypse)

The origin story is important, but the other features matter more. The game I'm making is intended to have the kind of "choose your own zombie" feature mentioned above. Important aspects: infection dynamics and transformation properties.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Biag on March 03, 2011, 11:31:04 pm
With regards to the tactical combat bit- the combat (or really, lack thereof) in Rebuild was the reason I played it once, and only once. A zombie apocalypse just doesn't feel like a zombie apocalypse if you don't actually have to fight to survive, and from a monetary standpoint I think it will be worth your time.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: mainiac on March 04, 2011, 01:43:27 am
Corporate is another excellent zombie genre.  It would be thematically interesting in that the zeds are both your antagonists and the people you need to save.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: jester on March 04, 2011, 02:15:22 am
while input is great remember that all the really great stuff out there is ultimately the work of one determined and clever bugger.  You will never be able to please everybody and if you try it will usually be garbage.  Make a game you would want to play yourself and it shouldnt be too far wrong. 
  That said:
   I love games with a stupidly high amount of options for activities and equipment like DF or LCS
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Deon on March 04, 2011, 03:28:55 am
Quote
I appreciate the desire to help, but since this is necessarily a for-profit game (I'm seeking sponsorship money and advertising revenue; I have no intention of charging for the game), I'm hesitant to outsource any art or other tasks. I need to make money so that I can pay rent and continue to be an independent game developer after this game is complete.
Isn't there some way to "donate" graphics or something? So you could use them as your own?

Anyway, if you find a need for that, you know where to look :).
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Strife26 on March 04, 2011, 04:08:37 am
What about a "link up with military relief force" win condition as one for relatively simple survival in the long term? If you've survived for a longish enough time, you'd get a message that a military relief convoy is coming over shortwave radio, and could then get rescued by them and pulled out (or it'd be simple luck of them coming across your survivors if you couldn't contact them). If the convoy then tried to loop through the map and pick up all the survivors that they (or anyone that they rescued) knew about, that'd be really cool.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on March 04, 2011, 05:05:48 am
Even if the apocalypse is global, I can see a possible ending where you get picked up from the island by a navy ship, or even a submarine.

The army and air force are undead, but significant portions of the Navy put to sea and never looked back. Getting to that point would involve retaking the military base and using equipment there to get into contact with the remnants of the fleet. They, of course, desperately need supplies, and are happy to risk a small ship to pick up food and other equipment, if you can gather a substantial stockpile to hand over.

Much as they'd like to, it's not a rescue mission; they don't yet have a self-sufficient society on their handful of formerly uninhabited islands they've colonized, and they risk everything picking people up along with the supplies. However, they'll give you some weapons and other equipment to help you hold out, and promise they'll try to return when they can. Maybe you can bribe your way in early, and get some sympathetic ranking officer who really wants something special to slip you in among the crew.

Eventually, whether you've helped them or not, their uninhabited island venture succeeds, and they come back to pick people up. Of course, the rescue will go horribly wrong, and your intervention may determine whether hundreds escape to a new life or the ship's crew is infected.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Aqizzar on March 04, 2011, 05:17:23 am
I'm not totally up to speed on the technical details, but the idea of a Zombie Survival game based on the design principles of LCS writes itself.  I know you know what you're doing Fox, so I'm really looking forward to this.

I suppose I should read through the thread a bit, so I'll actually have real comments.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Majestic7 on March 04, 2011, 06:04:27 am


I like these ideas. Sometimes you need a witch or a priest... sometimes you need a scientist. What other kinds of zombie origin stories exist?


Aliens. Body snatchers and controlling parasites, fungi from outer space - something from out there.

Some kind of technological gizmo that makes people crazy, like the transmission in the Signal.

Control chips in the brains, ran by Skynet-type evil AI. Cyborg zombies, borg-style. 

I suppose a Cthulhu Mythos zombie apocalypse would be possible too, like In the Mouth of Madness, where a certain cultural product spreads the infection. (Have you seen the Yellow Sign? Have you read Sutter Cane?)

I think origin story is important in two senses. First, undead zombies should be tougher than virus zombies. No matter how strangely the virus mutates the human, there are limits what the body can take, for example, when shot at. A walking corpse on the other hand... to disable a walking corpse, you'd need to blow it into bits or snap the spine. Everything else is just making holes and many weapons, like, say, a spear or small-calibre pistols, are bound to be very ineffective.

Second, it tells how permanent the problem is going to be and thus what are viable solutions to the survivors. If the zeds are just sick and it turns them into..well...zombies, then just waiting it out is a good solution. If they can't take care of themselves, they'll die from thirst and hunger eventually. If the zeds are undead or directed by outside intelligence... well... much worse.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Deon on March 04, 2011, 06:57:28 am
Quote
I like these ideas. Sometimes you need a witch or a priest... sometimes you need a scientist. What other kinds of zombie origin stories exist?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_%28novel%29
One of my favourite :D.

P.S.
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Some kind of technological gizmo that makes people crazy, like the transmission in the Signal.
Wow, I just googled it, and it looks like the theme is close to the Cell. Awesome! Thanks for telling me, I am SO gonna watch it :D.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: flap on March 04, 2011, 06:59:15 am
Also, how do you destroy them ?
- If they are infected bodies by a virus, fungi - or human beings controlled by something else - anything normally killing a human should kill them (with more or lesse resistance). Though, that might not solve the problem of the infection agent.
- If they are magical/ highly mutated ones or infected by very special things, then the amount of destruction could be very different (each body part has its own life, then you have burn/dissolve everything ; or need to remove heart, severe head,...)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Deon on March 04, 2011, 07:01:41 am
Quote
- If they are magical/ highly mutated ones or infected by very special things, then the amount of destruction could be very different (each body part has its own life, then you have burn/dissolve everything ; or need to remove heart, severe head,...)
Tactical dismemberment (c)? :D
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Miko19 on March 04, 2011, 10:20:54 am
Quote
- If they are magical/ highly mutated ones or infected by very special things, then the amount of destruction could be very different (each body part has its own life, then you have burn/dissolve everything ; or need to remove heart, severe head,...)
Tactical dismemberment (c)? :D
Necromorph Zombie Outbreak?
I'm all in
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: kotor39 on March 06, 2011, 05:39:20 pm
I got a couple Ideas to toss around
First I will give an example of a short little free online game that is quite close to what you are talking about, its worth checking it out for 20 seconds. The part about it you might want to look at is the random events after each turn. http://armorgames.com/play/10572/rebuild
Second, I am going to give some possible end conditions if you are looking for some.
1.Have a fully functioning permanent settlement (With this you could work into a time lapse system like the LCS wait system when you pass months by. After your settlement works autonomously for 2-5 years, it could start throwing other random goals at you,
           Survive against Large zombie horde (20,000)
           Survive against the huge bandit army (2,000)
           Rebuild after natural disaster (ex. Hurricane, You could make holes in walls, destroyed buildings,          dead people, scattered resources)
           Get at least 200 people over to the small island
           Get at least 200 people over to the mainland
           Get the cure from the outpost 1,000 miles away
           Become the #1 city in all of Post Apocalypse mainland America
           
My questions
1. How big are you thinking, LCS sized squads or like 50 people squads or would it be dynamic sized, because personally I would like nothing more than seeing my squad of 5 people and then 300 turns later or whatever, seeing those same 5 people governing a functioning settlement of 100 people.
2.Would it be just survival, or would it be survive and rebuild.
3. Would this game have 1 release or would you constantly be sending out releases.

MORE TO COME
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: GlyphGryph on March 07, 2011, 03:19:32 pm
Aww, Majestic took the types I wanted to say :P

Alien - Think Chryssalids! Or the spider-zombies from the book Breeding Ground. No saving these guys though...
Cyborg Zombies - Like the cybermen! Well, probably more just enough cybernetic bits to control them... but with wounded zombies being dragged back to the factory to be repaired and come back at you again. Obviously no infection mechanic here, other than corpses getting taken and converted.

Anyways, I'm sure no matter what you decide on it will be really cool, but I've always been a fan of having an element of "discovery" where it's "what will work THIS time!?" (see: Strange Adventures in Infinite Space)

If you do go with things like random zombie source/random skills important and stuff, there's a lot of enjoyable potential there.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Tellemurius on March 07, 2011, 04:39:55 pm
Aww, Majestic took the types I wanted to say :P

Alien - Think Chryssalids! Or the spider-zombies from the book Breeding Ground. No saving these guys though...
Cyborg Zombies - Like the cybermen! Well, probably more just enough cybernetic bits to control them... but with wounded zombies being dragged back to the factory to be repaired and come back at you again. Obviously no infection mechanic here, other than corpses getting taken and converted.

Anyways, I'm sure no matter what you decide on it will be really cool, but I've always been a fan of having an element of "discovery" where it's "what will work THIS time!?" (see: Strange Adventures in Infinite Space)

If you do go with things like random zombie source/random skills important and stuff, there's a lot of enjoyable potential there.
Oh god Stroggs...
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Meanmelter on March 08, 2011, 06:56:04 pm
My Prediction

1.Jonathan releases a alpha (Buggy)
2.Jonathan Fixes lots of bugs (Still alpha)
3.Deon Makes huge graphics overhaul (And they're epic looking)
4.Jonathan does more updates, gets to Beta.
5.Source is opened a little bit.
6.Deon Makes Overhaul (ZOMBIES ERRYWHERE!)
7.Jonathan officially releases the game. (Still updates it)
8. Deon adds stuff to Official release (Also updates)
9.Jonathan and Deon Team up and make games.
10.Jonathan and Deon Own the gaming market, along with my future company. (TEE-HEE)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Deon on March 09, 2011, 02:13:07 am
Hehe. You overestimate my abilities I guess :). I only dabble in Delphi, python and C.

I would like to participate in game development seriously, but I didn't dare even to try it. Now all my income comes from system administration and translations from other languages. Games for me are hobbies, and I rarely pay for them and don't expect any income from modding or helping others. If anything, I enjoy it and I could pay to mod some great game, not earn from it :). Because it's one of my favourite types of Fun.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Dbuhos on March 10, 2011, 10:37:18 am
This sounds incredibly fun.
Good luck with the project man.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Zangi on March 10, 2011, 11:18:52 am
If you do go with things like random zombie source/random skills important and stuff, there's a lot of enjoyable potential there.
Genius, build your own zombies and random zombies option.

Replayableness for the win.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Geen on April 23, 2011, 01:52:11 pm
Definitely looking forward to this. Randomized zombies would be great, along with LCS mechanics. Another interesting idea: Perhaps the ability to change setting or time period, for example, you could have steampunk zombies or stone age zombies or even ninja zombies. Another interesting thing would be to play AS the zombies.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Tellemurius on April 28, 2011, 07:20:09 am
Well we don't like the guy that hired you then.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Supercharazad on April 28, 2011, 08:37:19 am
I am not interested in this game sorry.
I am not interested in this game sorry.

You felt the need to post that twice?
With no content?
I smell a smelly smell, and it smells of elves...
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Deon on April 28, 2011, 09:00:34 am
It's definitely a bot.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Supercharazad on April 28, 2011, 09:13:37 am
Doesn't look like a bot. Methinks it's a normal person.

A normal person with advertisements.
Because where did it get "game" from? It also has a thing in the pickup lines thread saying "lines" istead of game, so I'm guessing it's a person with a template and a space to add things to, to make them seem like a normal person.



Either way, we need a captcha on these forums.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on April 28, 2011, 09:23:45 am
Guys, don't sweat it. My response is "I hope I can change your mind eventually." Regardless of the specifics who posted that, I'm sure there are a few very real people who have the same opinion. After all, I can easily see someone who is a fan of LCS, and has no interest in a Zombie game. They would prefer the same effort go into improving or remaking LCS, and they just don't want to be rude. That's okay. If you're in that boat, I hope I can change your mind eventually.

I'm planning to talk a bit more about where the game is and how I currently envision it at some point next week, which is the point when I'm stepping it up to go into full time development.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Supercharazad on April 28, 2011, 10:26:05 am
Guys, don't sweat it. My response is "I hope I can change your mind eventually." Regardless of the specifics who posted that, I'm sure there are a few very real people who have the same opinion. After all, I can easily see someone who is a fan of LCS, and has no interest in a Zombie game. They would prefer the same effort go into improving or remaking LCS, and they just don't want to be rude. That's okay. If you're in that boat, I hope I can change your mind eventually.


Really?

Look at his sig. Now look as his posts.

So, understand where your pos tthere went wrong? Good.




Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Angel Of Death on April 28, 2011, 01:59:06 pm
I am not interested in this game sorry.
Wow. That's one intelligent spambot.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on April 28, 2011, 02:24:17 pm
Guys, don't sweat it. My response is "I hope I can change your mind eventually." Regardless of the specifics who posted that, I'm sure there are a few very real people who have the same opinion. After all, I can easily see someone who is a fan of LCS, and has no interest in a Zombie game. They would prefer the same effort go into improving or remaking LCS, and they just don't want to be rude. That's okay. If you're in that boat, I hope I can change your mind eventually.

Really?

Look at his sig. Now look as his posts.

So, understand where your pos tthere went wrong? Good.

This seems like a rather rude way of phrasing your point, but yes, I do see what you're saying. I went ahead and referred the issue to Toady so that he can take appropriate action. If the only reason you objected was because he appeared to be a spammer, then go ahead and disregard the part about "don't sweat it". But I don't think that's entirely the case for everyone, and that's part of why I responded.

I bet that if he'd said the opposite, and expressed anticipation, significantly fewer people would have jumped to skepticism about his authenticity. There's a very common knee-jerk reaction to contrary opinions that happens in groups. My point is that regardless of who he is, there are very likely other very real people who see this thread and are pointedly uninterested, even disappointed that I would let this distract me from working on LCS or something else they might be interested in. These people may not feel any desire to express their doubt, but I don't have a problem with that opinion, and I wouldn't have a problem with it even if they did post here.

I think it's always healthy to question whether your course of action is the best thing you can do with your time. It's easy to just assume something is a good plan, or the best plan, and ignore alternatives. Even if this guy was just a spammer, it's human nature that not everyone will be excited about the idea, and I'm happy to hear doubt about whether it's the best idea. As I said, it doesn't change my choice -- I just hope that I can prove that this will be a great game.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Supercharazad on April 28, 2011, 02:31:11 pm
Guys, don't sweat it. My response is "I hope I can change your mind eventually." Regardless of the specifics who posted that, I'm sure there are a few very real people who have the same opinion. After all, I can easily see someone who is a fan of LCS, and has no interest in a Zombie game. They would prefer the same effort go into improving or remaking LCS, and they just don't want to be rude. That's okay. If you're in that boat, I hope I can change your mind eventually.

Really?

Look at his sig. Now look as his posts.

So, understand where your pos tthere went wrong? Good.

This seems like a rather rude way of phrasing your point,

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound rude ^.^
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on April 28, 2011, 02:40:07 pm
Guys, don't sweat it. My response is "I hope I can change your mind eventually." Regardless of the specifics who posted that, I'm sure there are a few very real people who have the same opinion. After all, I can easily see someone who is a fan of LCS, and has no interest in a Zombie game. They would prefer the same effort go into improving or remaking LCS, and they just don't want to be rude. That's okay. If you're in that boat, I hope I can change your mind eventually.

Really?

Look at his sig. Now look as his posts.

So, understand where your pos tthere went wrong? Good.

This seems like a rather rude way of phrasing your point,

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound rude ^.^

No problem. I assumed I'd caused offense by implying you were overreacting.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Neonivek on April 28, 2011, 04:12:35 pm
Will infection be in this zompocolips? As in the ordinary kind...

Hmmm, you think antibiotics could be an important item?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Fniff on April 29, 2011, 12:58:51 pm
Excuse me.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Anyway, YES!

I love zombies! This should be the game for me.

Fakeedit: I think you there should be a few factors apart from the source that are randomly decided at the start of the game. I am sorry if these are stupid.

Fast Zombies Or Slow Zombies?: If you need to outrun some zombies, this is going to be crucial.
Is The Government Still Working?: If it is still going, that means that there could be evacuations, and supply drops!
Madagascar Infected?: Who is telling some infected guy had the same idea as you, and started a zombie outbreak on Madagascar when you escaped there? Hey, zombie film endings can sometimes be unfair.
Zombies Starve: Guess the reference and win! If this is unchecked, you'll never survive by outliving the undead.

That's all I can think of at the moment.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Angel Of Death on April 29, 2011, 04:29:28 pm
Madagascar will NEVER be infected, Fniff. The moment a man in Brazil coughs, everything will be shut down.


Are there going to be infections and stuff? I think you could have infections using a slightly modified version of the LCS wisdom system. Maybe there could be infection resistance, so you don't always become infected.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Mephansteras on April 29, 2011, 04:31:24 pm
Huh. This sounds promising.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: ZebioLizard2 on April 29, 2011, 05:50:58 pm
I'd like to see something with a bit micromanagement, rather like how Rebuild! was done, or maybe a bit of rogue survivor done as well.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Fniff on April 29, 2011, 07:24:47 pm
Madagascar will NEVER be infected, Fniff. The moment a man in Brazil coughs, everything will be shut down.

I get the meme.

That doesn't account for a state of chaos, people flying under the radar, smugglers, refugees, etc. It can and may be infected by the time you get there. That isn't even accounting for what happens if zombies can live underwater. It could be in the white by the time you get there.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Raul on April 29, 2011, 09:24:23 pm
Oh my, I'll definitely play this! Posting to watch.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 03, 2011, 02:38:04 pm
This last weekend, I graduated from DigiPen with a Bachelor of Science in Game Design, with honors, and as degree Valedictorian. I said that this week I would begin full-time development of the Zombie Game. With that, I have a couple of updates on the vision for the game, as it was outlined in the first post.

The game takes place after the fall of civilization, in a city completely overrun by zombies. One possibility I'm currently mulling is doing something like the experience of Rogue Survivor if you turn the number of humans up high in the early game, and having the start point be the moment of panic when civilization is collapsing around you, and you go running through the street, trying to find supplies, while an anarchy of zombies and humans are fighting around you. I wasn't planning on doing this, but I have to admit, it's a pretty badass start to the game in Rogue Survivor, and it leads nicely into the rest of the game. If there is power or running water, they will soon be lost.

You start with one person, you, and if you die the game is over. Originally, I was planning to allow you to recruit up to party of five people, but my work last week on LCS has made me lean toward allowing more characters, and allow you to develop a settlement yourself, along the lines of the game Rebuild.

The current plan is for the game to have two main game modes. The first is a strategic overhead map, with the ability to organize your survivors and direct their activities. The second game mode allows you to run around in the streets, and uses a large view, with many more tiles of vision than in LCS. Combat will take place on this map as you shoot at Zombies chasing after you in other tiles; I have this system prototyped and working, including Zombie pathfinding and your field of view/line of sight calculations.

Originally, I was planning the second game mode to be used only to clear buildings, just as in LCS. However, my prototype supports a 1000x1000 map large enough to encompass the entire city, with truly insane numbers of zombies on the map at once, without taking an inordinate amount of memory. If the game doesn't simulate other survivors, I can make it a continuous open world game, and have the strategic view interfaced through a cell phone or laptop. This strategic layer would require power to access (at least to charge the batteries), so you'd have value in setting up a safehouse with a generator. An open world game should also have the ability to jump around the map; this fast travel could come through use of cars. Car usage would depend on fuel. On the other hand, if I do want to do a lot of active humans in the city, this could slow down the game significantly for the type of large map needed to make it an open world game. It may be possible to abstract this convincingly in the background as you move around the city, but there are no guarantees.

I hate how followers usually work in Roguelikes, with them trailing behind you, getting stuck, distracted, blocking your movement, obstructing your aim, ugh, yuck. I'm strongly leaning toward putting your entire party in a single tile, and having you move and act as a unit, with attack command giving everyone the command to start shooting. After all, everybody knows that in a Zombie apocalypse, "let's split up" is the last decision you'll ever make. This leads to a possibility that I could re-assess the scale of the tiles, and make things consistent by having tiles be big enough to support multiple zombies as well, potentially allowing five or six zombies to move into the same tile as they close in on you.

I want combat to be fast. One of the strengths of LCS is that if anything gets boring, you can start speeding through it, including massive combat. To that end, I'm strongly leaning toward abstracting shooting from the way Roguelikes do it, and having the attack command auto-attack some of the nearby enemies, without prompting you to select a target. You might get a focus fire command to supplement this, in case you feel strongly about killing a specific enemy first.
Title: .
Post by: Yannanth on May 03, 2011, 05:52:40 pm
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Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: EuchreJack on May 04, 2011, 09:22:22 pm
I agree with Yannanth's comment about dividing the game up into different areas.  The rest...not so much.

Many game divide the map up among areas based upon theme.  For example, your average Zombie-Infested City would probably have a Downtown area, a University area, an Industrial area, and an Outskirts area.

As long as each area is decent, so as the player can avoid having to change areas every five seconds, it'll be fine.

Glad to hear you've got a prototype working!  Let us know when you got something to test!
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: quinnr on May 04, 2011, 10:40:47 pm
Sounds very cool, and I am greatly looking forward to it :)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 04, 2011, 11:02:07 pm
I don't disagree with anything! I see this as bringing the LCS vibe to more mainstream games, which is a good thing in any case! 8)
Originally, I was planning the second game mode to be used only to clear buildings, just as in LCS. However, my prototype supports a 1000x1000 map large enough to encompass the entire city, with truly insane numbers of zombies on the map at once, without taking an inordinate amount of memory.
Have you added a graphical interface to it yet? If you haven't, you might be very disappointed at the game's performance afterwards.

At the moment, the prototype is just running around and pressing a button to shoot as zombies shamble toward you. It has graphics, of a rudimentary (but proof of concept) form, but there isn't a graphical interface in the sense of buttons on screen, since there isn't much need for it yet. I'm in full agreement that the Roguelike/LCS style "memorize your keyboard" interface can't stand.

If the game doesn't simulate other survivors, I can make it a continuous open world game, and have the strategic view interfaced through a cell phone or laptop. This strategic layer would require power to access (at least to charge the batteries), so you'd have value in setting up a safehouse with a generator. An open world game should also have the ability to jump around the map; this fast travel could come through use of cars. Car usage would depend on fuel. On the other hand, if I do want to do a lot of active humans in the city, this could slow down the game significantly for the type of large map needed to make it an open world game. It may be possible to abstract this convincingly in the background as you move around the city, but there are no guarantees.
While I feel this has become a staple of game design that tried to incorporate too much--simply dividing the world into sections would be a much easier solutions. Yeah, walking from one open area to the same open area is unrealistic but it's acceptable. Changing the design of the map or whatever you are calling the world would be too much of a stretch and would ruin the openness I believe.

Oh, and do avoid dungeons! The last thing I want to see in an open world game is dungeons in which treasure shows up out of nowhere and the character is somehow destined to enter these seemingly worthless places.

I don't fully understand what you're saying here, when you're talking about walking from one open area to the same open area, and changing the design of the map. If you don't mind spending a bit more time to explain, will you give an example of a game that does this well/poorly, and point out what was good or bad about it?

The closest thing I can envision having to dungeons is notable buildings you may want to fully explore and loot. For example, a military base, hospital, science lab, or mall. They would be essentially what you expect.

My main concern with the game is its length. If you're going to do a flash game, I can imagine it ending up on Newgrounds and such websites where many people don't have huge attention spans. I used to play large-scale RPGs and similar games on NG a lot a while ago but I got fed up by the updates to Flash and what-not that deleted my savegames. So you shouldn't be aiming for something too similar to LCS in scope, but something that can be finished or played to an extent that satisfied the player in 2 hours TOPS. Things move fast on Newgrounds and you get the big hits of users when the game is first released and when it gets featured on the front page, which I trust it will! ;D

I think Flash games with larger scope actually do quite well. For example, in my market research, the most played Zombie flash game of all time was Sonny 2, an extended RPG. With that said, players do need to have fun in a short amount of time; the game can't have a learning curve that require pounding your head against a brick wall or checking a wiki. But, if the game doesn't end any time soon -- well, as long as they're having fun, many will come back, and that will make the game more successful.

Some of the conventions for how Flash games work are just conventions that evolved from the developers that work on them. I think there's definitely room for growth in the field.

Many game divide the map up among areas based upon theme.  For example, your average Zombie-Infested City would probably have a Downtown area, a University area, an Industrial area, and an Outskirts area.

As long as each area is decent, so as the player can avoid having to change areas every five seconds, it'll be fine.

One of the things that really sells using a larger map instead of going building by building is the ability to move from building to building in search of supplies, allowing you to quickly cover more ground in a single day. Your example of using districts, such as the LCS districts, fits nicely with that. It also enables easily creating a woodsy area that is distinct from a city area. I'll definitely consider this possibility.

Glad to hear you've got a prototype working!  Let us know when you got something to test!

One unfortunate convention in Flash game development is that it's not common practice to publicly share builds of the game prior to release. The reason for this is purely commercial; sponsors like to have a big reveal, a first time release of the game, to cash in on the wave of initial plays. I'm of two minds about this. On one hand, that's not really how I want to do it. My background with LCS is community-driven development. Even though this game won't be open source, I'd far rather have players actively playing the game and giving feedback. On the other hand, I don't want to risk one of the main sources of income for Flash games. I definitely have to think about this more.
Title: .
Post by: Yannanth on May 05, 2011, 06:32:35 am
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Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Keita on May 05, 2011, 06:53:47 am
Looks very interesting.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: EuchreJack on May 05, 2011, 05:04:32 pm
RE: Testing:

First and foremost, you'd best ask any potential advertisers what their limits are in regards to pre-testing.  They likely have strict limits on what can and can not occur prior to release.

That said, also ask if a closed beta is possible.  Your LCS regulars can recieve and review the game via email, and perhaps even hype the game a bit prior to release.  Just make sure nobody runs off and uploads it on you (AKA, keep it to whom you can trust).

Good luck, we'll support you however it goes.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Supercharazad on May 06, 2011, 01:59:36 pm

That said, also ask if a closed beta is possible.  Your LCS regulars can recieve and review the game via email, and perhaps even hype the game a bit prior to release.  Just make sure nobody runs off and uploads it on you (AKA, keep it to whom you can trust).


If you do do this, remember your old pal, Supercharazard. You know, that guy thhat sometimes posts here, on this forum? Great guy, I'd trust him with my life.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: slowbeard on May 07, 2011, 11:24:41 am
Congrats on your graduation

I am unbearably excited about this project; to an almost embarressing degree!

As an instant reaction to finding this post, I'd second the mention of Rebuild as a good source of inspiration - for a light-weight game, I thought the system worked well, especially in the sense of actually feeling a sense of community in your reclaimed town. I just thought it lacked a bit of depth and life, which I found much more in LCS and am just finding in DF, which I've only just discovered - the combination of both would be awesome. The ideas of loose goals to frame open ended play is also a good one.

As for gameplay mechanics, have you ever played Gangsters and/or Gangsters II? Ultimately flawed to the point of teethgrinding, however I thought the strategic (turn-based) planning had lots of potential

I'd certainly favour streamlined, report based combat over rogue-like fiddlyness also.

Keep up the good work!

Oh, and if there are vehicles to be had - please include the obligatory barricading-yourself-into-a-shopping-mall-with-trucks functionality. Ta.


Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: mainiac on May 07, 2011, 07:30:54 pm
Belated Grats on the graduation.

BTW, I don't think Sonny 2 was much of a zombie game since Sonny wasn't much of a zombie.  What was the second most popular zombie flash game in your research?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on May 08, 2011, 01:09:41 am
BTW, I don't think Sonny 2 was much of a zombie game since Sonny wasn't much of a zombie.  What was the second most popular zombie flash game in your research?

Regarding Sonny not being much of a Zombie, tell me about it. I never really understood that classification. Then again, I didn't play much of them (the combat system bored me tears). But, even if we take the Zombie out, the real point is that their complexity and length drew plenty of repeat plays and high ratings, rather than alienating audiences. Of course, I imagine the voice acting helps for making a strong first impression and getting goods reviews to draw in more viewers.

I think second most popular I found was the two The Last Stand games. This research wasn't exhaustive or authoritative; it was a manual survey of view counts on several major Flash portals.

As an instant reaction to finding this post, I'd second the mention of Rebuild as a good source of inspiration - for a light-weight game, I thought the system worked well, especially in the sense of actually feeling a sense of community in your reclaimed town. I just thought it lacked a bit of depth and life, which I found much more in LCS and am just finding in DF, which I've only just discovered - the combination of both would be awesome. The ideas of loose goals to frame open ended play is also a good one.

I have played Rebuild and I like the theme of it. Like you, I found it lacked replayability. I feel an ambition to do better than Rebuild, though it's certainly a solid game. Part of that is what LCS makes possible by opening up a world to you, and giving you the freedom to play in it. Want to go on shooting sprees? Want to kidnap people? Start a newspaper? Manage a sleeper network? There are many ways to win the game and many ways to lose horribly. It's up to you to figure out what you want to do, and how to execute that effectively. Even recruiting has lots of choices, from how you want to recruit, who you want to recruit, how many people you want in your squad, the structure you want your organization to have... there are ramifications to each choice you make, and reasons to weigh on all sides.

As for gameplay mechanics, have you ever played Gangsters and/or Gangsters II? Ultimately flawed to the point of teethgrinding, however I thought the strategic (turn-based) planning had lots of potential

Yes, I have played Gangsters, but not its sequel. I've been wondering if something along those lines is appropriate for the strategic play of this kind of game. You could certainly deal with multiple safehouses, and secured zombie-free territories in that way. I'm leaning toward having all out-of-safehouse actions be manually controlled, however, and using automation only for actions that kept inside the safehouse. I'm not sure though.

Oh, and if there are vehicles to be had - please include the obligatory barricading-yourself-into-a-shopping-mall-with-trucks functionality. Ta.

I'm not sure if I'll support manually managing barricades at all. It's not that it's unfun to construct barricades -- I personally like strategy defense games, and enjoy pushing wrecked cars to block a store entrance in Rogue Survivor -- but it might be out of the game's scope, with barricades managed through the equivalent of the [A]ctivation screen in LCS. To be determined, though.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on May 08, 2011, 01:52:58 am
Quote
I'm not sure if I'll support manually managing barricades at all. It's not that it's unfun to construct barricades -- I personally like strategy defense games, and enjoy pushing wrecked cars to block a store entrance in Rogue Survivor -- but it might be out of the game's scope, with barricades managed through the equivalent of the [A]ctivation screen in LCS. To be determined, though.

I concur. For what you have to do to adequately barricade in many games, the pay out is minimal. And they're always a second's reprieve from a decent hoard, and little else. So, not having to manually build barricades, and abstracting how good they are or how many you get to how many people you have on hand...would be preferable to me. 
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: jester on May 09, 2011, 04:12:29 am
Dont bother with gangsters 2.  There is no weekly orders screen and it was dumbed down to the point where it was nothing like the original, basically just an rts.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Zangi on May 11, 2011, 10:35:03 am
Dont bother with gangsters 2.  There is no weekly orders screen and it was dumbed down to the point where it was nothing like the original, basically just an rts.
It was dumbed down yes... but if it had a custom/random map mode, I'd have played it so much more...
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Oddysee on May 31, 2011, 08:05:46 am
So Jonathan, you're still working on this right?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 02, 2011, 05:25:20 pm
Oh hey, I'll just leave this here. (http://youtu.be/WWpqiyjb5l0)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 02, 2011, 05:28:03 pm
Quote
This video is currently being processed.

Oh, you tease.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 02, 2011, 05:29:45 pm
MWAHAHAHAHA!

I really did cackle cruelly when posting that. The video is now available.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 02, 2011, 06:05:30 pm
Looking promising so far.

What I really liked that you have so far: the auto-combat thing. Genius. Multiple party members + single targeting methods + swarms = tedious combat. The combat you've done very much streamlines it, but allows us the gameiness of saying "I, Hubert Jenkins, chose to smash that zombie's head in with a fire axe." If you can squirrel configurable AI options in there for the auto-combat AI, that would be sweet.

The action points bar is also something I've wanted to see in Rogue-likes for a while. Games like Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup would benefit from something like this, to explain combat speeds and performance much better. I'd like to see lists in-game that describe how much each actual action costs. Give us delicious data to plan the perfect team, down to their turn-by-turn capabilities.

While the player tile is a cute effect that hearkens back to LCS...it feels too small to me. The whole squad fitting on one tile. It makes me think that maybe zombies should stack since the player effectively stacks, and you can have a tile for a horde of zombies. That way you can cram more zombie in for less overhead. It's not "realistic" but the squad already breaking reality in that sense. It's up to you if you want to continue down the path it's presenting.

So, what I would like to see.

There was a web-based zombie game someone linked over in OG. You had your base, yadda yadda, but the city map was a series of plots. Some were residential, some were commercial, some were government. You started by securing the sites around your base and progressively you started exploring more of the world.

I found that plot-design really endearing. Combine that with what Fort Zombie does, which is random encounters while you travel that plop you into generated plots you need to escape from, I think you've got a good mixture of free roaming and simulation. It allows you to set up other things like: multiple bases. Various environments with different threat levels and rewards. Different scenarios for meeting and recruiting survivors. Plots of different sizes that may or may not take advantage of the 1,000,000 site tile cap. And you could make a fun little procedurally generated game map that whoever is doing your tile artwork could have a fun time doing.

Things it would require though:

-Another, top-level procedural plot generator.
-Lots of variety in the site map generator.
-Some sort of method to track the zombie pop moving through the city via plots. I'd poke around the work done on Rogue Survivor, as it manages to model this efficiently without bringing things to a halt. You don't want static sites because, obviously, the Zombie Apocalypse isn't a jRPG where you just systematically clear out the world. So even sites you "clear", you want roamers and the chance a horde moves through there.

If you can get a decent horde simulation going, that becomes a game in and of itself (like if you get scouting reports that X numbers of zombies were seen at Y,Z plot), managing the movement of the horde or responding to it. Again, Rogue Survivor does something like this, but it tends to focus a lot on the individual sightings, so information about large movements of ZEDs becomes hard to discern.

Anyways, that's just generic random thinking that popped into my head while watching this. These zombie rogue-likes to me benefit from as much procedural map gen as you can conjure and good zombie population simulation. The whole "zombies go to sleep and stand there when you aren't around" works, it's just the limit of what most zombie games of this nature can reach, and it would be cool to see someone go beyond that, by modeling the horde more effectively. Rogue Survivor has in a sense gotten there in a fun and interesting way, even if the game becomes unsurvivable past X because of it. Fort Zombie does it through smoke and mirrors, just a countdown timer to DOOM and a swarm. Something that captures both, the movement of the horde and the climatic but not necessarily inevitable conclusion, would be amazing.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: shaihulud on June 02, 2011, 07:13:03 pm
thanks for the preview Jonathan! really looking forward to it!
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 02, 2011, 07:23:55 pm
So what about this Jonathon.

What if the plot/site design were based around the building that defines the plot, rather than the 'character' of the area?

For example, if one was built around a large motel, rather than a large site containing a bunch of random plots, one of which is a building that says "motel."

Consider what almost all zombie games do now. They give you a large open grid, square buildings to form streets, alleys and sidewalks, and one district is much the same as the other, all that differs is what you find in each individual plot within the site.

So what if instead you end up with a city built of large building plots, each of which is a site you investigate. If you meet the zeds in transit between plots, it kicks you to some generated, generic street site for you to escape from.

That really, really opens up the possibilities for uniqueness, sites that are more detailed and focus less on quantity to make things interesting. While it does lose some of the open nature of the simulation, I think it greatly increase the value of actually playing it and exploring the game.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 03, 2011, 01:44:40 am
Woo! Thank you nenjin, thank you!

I've been thinking about having zombies stack up to 5 or 6 to a tile for the same reason. If you get 4-5 to a tile, why shouldn't the so-called "horde" be able to do that too?

At the moment, each building and rectangular chunk of street is its own plot of land, and they manage their own generation. The first thing I do in world gen is to section the city off into plots and assign types to them. Then I go through to each plot, and instruct it to construct a building of that type there. The record of what plots are where is never lost, and I can look up what plot any given tile is on. These plots of land also have records for amounts of food, medicine, and zombies they contain. These amounts are emptied when the supplies and zombies are placed in the world.

The game doesn't do this currently, but it would be very straightforward to repack all the zombies and supplies on a location into the plot's data. I could even retain the location of the supplies inside the plot. In doing so, it would be plausible to simulate horde movement from plot to plot.

It's also technically possible for me to make recursive plots. I could create a type that is, say, a military base, and have that military base internally subdivide itself into buildings. Or a mall that internally subdivides itself into hallways and stores. I don't want to get too carried away with what is "possible" since I might not get around to doing those things, but the system should be robust enough to allow fairly interesting large locations.

At the moment, I'm leaning toward doing world design similar to what you describe in your second post -- have an abstracted large city with hotspots you can send squads to, and make it possible for your squads to get intercepted and fight/flee on more generic maps as well. My understanding is that Fort Zombie does something similar, but I haven't played it. I'll check it out for sure. (I think I have played the other game you were talking about; it sounds like the Flash game Rebuild, which came out shortly before I started this project.)

Thanks again!

For anyone that missed it due to the obscure link above, I uploaded a 13-minute video of the current build of ZSS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWpqiyjb5l0
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: MetalSlimeHunt on June 03, 2011, 02:02:31 am
If you're going to add six zombies to a square, I would suggest adding a simulation of the effects of crowd crush. A group of people all pushing in one direction onto each other can exert massive amounts of force, enough to tear down or tip over walls and fences. It also risks harming those inside it, but with zombies that isn't really an issue unless they get your survivors up against a wall.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: jester on June 03, 2011, 02:13:22 am
Just keep at it at this stage, really looking forward to it
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 03, 2011, 03:31:54 am
Quote
At the moment, I'm leaning toward doing world design similar to what you describe in your second post -- have an abstracted large city with hotspots you can send squads to, and make it possible for your squads to get intercepted and fight/flee on more generic maps as well. My understanding is that Fort Zombie does something similar, but I haven't played it. I'll check it out for sure. (I think I have played the other game you were talking about; it sounds like the Flash game Rebuild, which came out shortly before I started this project.)

Fort Zombie presents you the map each day. There are stick pins at randomly placed distances from the base, that represent a mission type. How far the mission is from the base, i.e. how much travel time it requires to get there and back (how long before nightfall, and how long you're vulnerable to an attack while traveling) is a big part of the tactical decision making and variation in challenge. Every day you get a new selection of missions, and the unfinished ones get scrubbed.

Fort Zombie doesn't divide the city into districts. Rather, each time you go to a mission (or have a random encounter) a map is generated, it plops in plots of houses or whatever, and it seems to loosely draw some kinds of districts within the map it creates based on themes. So you might get a brick of residentials, some commercial, some industry, a park, some military stuff....ect...in the map you're playing for each mission.

On a per map basis, Fort Zombie does it very well and I recommend watching some Youtube videos. It's 3d so it's not completely applicable to what you're doing, but if you look at it from a top down perspective it still works.

Where it falls short IMO is the actual map abstraction. The city is faceless and generic and the only thing that adds something there is the random nature of the daily missions and figuring out your travel time. But even those have no real rhyme or reason or...I dunno, guiding mechanic. None of the maps that get generated for missions are ever saved. So while it's really random and that's good, it's really random and that's bad. Because you always have something new to look at, but you get no sense of progress aside from your base and your survivors.

So a system with a city map that breaks up each plot into single or large-sized complexes, and generates that at the start of the game, would add the randomness to keep it replayable while not making it unrecognizably random while you're playing. That and the variation between what you get near you at game start adds that tactical variation that rogue-likes thrive on. The size or scope of each plot could go either way....but I find I'm getting pretty bored of generic cityscapes at this point, because no one ever leaves enough room for each plot to be different. A square building sub-divided three times is still a square building with a pretty recognizable pattern. I don't know how involved it would be to procedurally generate more interesting buildings...but I imagine if you're not forced to constrain each one within a 20x20 square tile, that's in a 500x500 tile grid....you might be able to create more evolved shapes.

Again, for what I think each playable map should look like, check out Fort Zombie. It manages to do a plot design that really hides the subdivisions in a way that's believable and interesting. For what I think the meta-city map should look like to be the most fun or interesting, yeah, Rebuild.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: shaihulud on June 03, 2011, 08:05:06 am
i dont know if this is possible but i would love to see more managment type of gameplay. Say it like you could switch over from adventure mode to managment mode, build your strongehold in managment mode and then you could actually plays a part in defending your strongehold. Scavenge in adventure mode for food and recurits then when you bring them back to the stronghold you'll need to manage them. Population VS food, manage people to form squads, train their stats(like DF)....etc. Other than Zombies factions would be nice too, survivors still have ideologies, but when you defeat an enemy you might able to recurit them somehow(like LCS?), thats all i can think of right now, just some silly ideas.

and does the damage system include body parts? please make it so like in LCS and DF...
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jamini on June 03, 2011, 04:06:19 pm
While I understand that you are trying to avoid the rougelike follower problem, it would be nice to be able to order your squad members to  act in squares independant of yours. Perhaps a "Hold this point" or "Go there" option which removes them from your party (temporarily) and sends them to the designated location.
 
Ideally they wouldn't need to move more than that, unless injured or in very serious danger (in which case, they run back to you or straight away depending on the nature of the threat and maybe a stat or two.) Such a system would add a lot of tactical depth to the game, without turning it into a TBS (not that a TBS is a bad thing mind) or giving you the rougelike followers problem. Naturally, if you leave the site your followers would follow you out.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 03, 2011, 05:00:40 pm
Being able to split the party up on a limited basis might be pretty cool actually, especially if can still engage in combat automatically. Kind of like putting up overwatch positions from Spacehulk.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Servant Corps on June 03, 2011, 07:20:37 pm
Quote
Other than Zombies factions would be nice too

I'd like to see rival Zombie factions, each Zombie faction aiming to destroy other Zombies rather than the Humans. Would be pretty interesting.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Aqizzar on June 03, 2011, 09:43:59 pm
I like the interface, sans polish obviously.  I think the minimap could stand to be a lot more focused on the area - save the full-city map for its own screen, and the minimap for the immediate area.

The semi-realtime mechanic is a fantastic addition to the (kinda) roguelike design, but it strikes me that an enemy who's faster than the characters could really fuck them over.  How does it handle that, since the pausing seems to be just based on party members reaching an action stage?  And can you do anything besides move when the meter isn't full?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Conservative Swine on June 05, 2011, 03:10:25 pm
Sounds like a good idea for a game.

Suggestion: Scarcity of resources should be the idea and the bottleneck here. If the number of people and perhaps enemies are going to be tracked, then the resources are going to need to be tracked as well.
 
Building a settlement shouldn't end the game because settlements have ongoing needs that have to be met.

 Food, labor, and supplies(gasoline, ammunition, medical, and so on) aren't going to just appear out of the skies and shouldn't be randomly generated in cars and stores. Food will have to be grown by people who aren't zombies. Searches will need to be carried out by people who aren't zombies. Supplies will have to be collected and stored by people who aren't zombies.

Can those people make more bullets? Will they have to rely on primitive weapons once the bullets are gone? How will the defenses stand up to the horde when the barricades are manned by people with pointy sticks. How will your science guys research a cure with no lab chemicals? What if those guys die and come back as zombies? Can anybody just decide to research until their skill hits 12 and then boom, they can make a cure? How frequently will the zombies attack? Do the zombies die permanently or can they keep coming back like in Urban Dead?

Question: Is there going to be some kind of world generation phase like in dwarf fortress?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Rumrusher on June 05, 2011, 03:41:48 pm
So will we be able to smoother people to death with a pillow?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Hiiri on June 06, 2011, 01:50:48 am
Quote
Other than Zombies factions would be nice too

I'd like to see rival Zombie factions, each Zombie faction aiming to destroy other Zombies rather than the Humans. Would be pretty interesting.

.... what?

Was this a joke?  :D
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: shaihulud on June 06, 2011, 02:06:19 am
haha would be fun to be having factions like demons(evil), zombies(Neutral no-brainer) and human (the "good" ones)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: shaihulud on June 06, 2011, 02:16:29 am
but to be realistic and honest, factions between humans could work, forming allies to defeat/defend zombies horde, trade or war against each other for resources. Can also be a reputation system with human factions, the higher your reputation more survivors are willing to join you. If the goverment military are being too abusive you can choose to go against or work with them.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Oddysee on June 06, 2011, 07:18:55 am
Looks really promising.  I'm really looking forward to this.  Great work.  :)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Servant Corps on June 06, 2011, 10:58:09 am
Quote
Other than Zombies factions would be nice too

I'd like to see rival Zombie factions, each Zombie faction aiming to destroy other Zombies rather than the Humans. Would be pretty interesting.

.... what?

Was this a joke?  :D

No, I really like the idea of not portraying zombies as merely an element of "nature" to be attacked and triumphed over. Then again, I was raised up by Urban Dead, which protrays zombies as being hyper-intelligent elite soldiers and humans as being a horde of mindless trenchcoaters...
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Strife26 on June 10, 2011, 05:45:29 am
Woo! Gameplay!
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Rumrusher on June 10, 2011, 06:53:55 am
horrible faction of the undead fighting over turf and food, you got the mutant strain zombies, the necromancer magic zombies, the Cursed to forever to unlife zombies, the Hell over the cap limit zombies, and the demon possessing corpses zombies.
All different but still fall under the rotting corpses.
Playing a group of survivors of the zombie Apocalypse you might not know about the other factions and to the human eye from afar it looks like two groups of zombies fighting over food.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Conservative Swine on June 11, 2011, 06:12:15 pm
Zombie factions doesn't fit with the atmosphere of survival horror and it isn't at all appropriate to a human vs zombie survival game.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: kilakan on June 11, 2011, 06:22:55 pm
posting to follow and say this looks neat.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: NRDL on June 14, 2011, 08:26:29 am
This zombie game seems awesome, I really hope Mr. Fox can release it soon. 
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 15, 2011, 04:43:16 pm
I have sad news: I haven't touched the game in a week. It's been finals in my online classes, and I've been pouring an inordinate amount of effort into getting this web page (http://www.jonathansfox.com/cmst138/) online. So much for "full time" development! Thankfully, that's over now.

As an apology for the pause, I'll whip up a video showing some world gen stuff I did based on maze generation techniques to create street layouts. It breaks up the city into many generic buildings, with major plots allocated to significant buildings, and draws on some of the ideas discussed two weeks ago. You can find the video here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZu3XUuqWm0)

Up next, I have some designs for the graphical interface of the strategic mode where you manage your safehouse, survivors, and squads. I'm going to work on converting those designs into a functional interface, which will provide the skeleton for the strategic mode that ties the game together.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Deon on June 15, 2011, 11:15:03 pm
Heheh, I've found this video through my sub box. Looks cool, I am happy that you have time to work on this.

Also looking at colored "key bindings", not all of them are square. Cool.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 16, 2011, 08:43:44 am
In 10 years, Rule 34 is going to apply to map generation, because it's that sexy.

Great work. Always looking forward to more.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Strife26 on June 17, 2011, 01:00:54 am
Is that first page on the site country specific? Because I totally thought that it was actually blocked by the UAE, which there's a fair chance my internets go through right now.


Edit: Yeah, the site is awfully leany, I have to say. Especially, especially, especially the wikileaks page.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: NRDL on June 17, 2011, 01:06:53 am
I saw the video, and it looks pretty cool.  Can't wait for the game to come out  :).
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 17, 2011, 01:49:57 am
Is that first page on the site country specific? Because I totally thought that it was actually blocked by the UAE, which there's a fair chance my internets go through right now.


Edit: Yeah, the site is awfully leany, I have to say. Especially, especially, especially the wikileaks page.

Haha, no, it isn't. But the splash screen IS a real page that used to show up in the UAE. Nowadays, it's a more shiny blue page (I checked by bouncing my signal through a UAE proxy and hitting the block), but the basic message is the same. I like that they're very upfront, instead of just dropping the packets; they tell you it's blocked, and even give you place to go complain about it. Censorship with dignity.

And yeah, the guy who did the Wikileaks page did a great job.

On topic, I'm working on the UI for the survivors list at this very moment, or was until Flash crashed a moment ago and led me to take a break. I'm really happy with how it's turning out. Flash is a great program.
Title: .
Post by: Yannanth on June 17, 2011, 06:43:06 am
.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 17, 2011, 02:08:42 pm
One of the reasons mainstream game development tends to avoid being too open is because features can get cut for time or even for design considerations. Right now, I'm considering limiting you to one safehouse and one squad. My reasoning is as follows:

One Squad
1. You can only take action with one squad at a time anyway.
2. Having one squad will allow tracking the time of day during site actions without creating strange paradoxes and other timeline crossing weirdness.
3. A single squad with time tracking could still hit multiple sites in one day, potentially staying out past nightfall. Fort Zombie shows the interesting risk-reward gameplay that can create.
4. Having one squad will simplify the management interface greatly. You can literally click a check box on the character list to include them in the squad, click it again to toggle them out.
5. Focusing on a smaller number of people increases the level of personal attachment to each character and amplifies the consequences of squad actions.

One Safehouse
1. The primary purpose of having multiple safehouses in LCS is to shake the police off your trail and mitigate risk to low-heat Liberals. There may be Zombie attacks, but the heat mechanic won't work in such a way that the same safehouse management tactics would help anyway.
2. Having one safehouse will simplify the interface, especially personnel and inventory tracking, and it will focus your safehouse investments on depth (lots of improvements/upgrades in one place) rather than breadth (get the same few improvements/upgrades in lots of places).
3. Attacks on your safehouse will be much easier to balance if all your eggs are in one basket, instead of having arbitrarily strong/weak safehouses scattered about.

In general, while multiple squads and safehouses are cool features conceptually, I feel they are secondary to the core strategy even in LCS, which centers around the application of your people and the growth of your organization. Not implementing them would allow me to avoid spending the development time and interface complexity to support them. And I really think having a simple check box to mark your survivors for squad duty would be amazing.

Your comments encouraged.

Jonathan, please check the video's comments. I based my comment on the Burgess model and most major British cities (not so much terraced housing in America I take it). I forgot to mention the irregular road patterns in my comment by the way.

Heheh, not to worry, I get all YouTube comments on any of my videos in my email. Big channels disable this feature because they get thousands per day, but I get only a couple at most, so I can afford to splurge. Somewhat unrelated, every edit on any page of the LCS wiki also ends up in my inbox.

I'd like to further differentiate the buildings in different parts of the city at some point, and I think that kind of approach -- having each area of the city have a different flavor, drawn from patterns seen in real-world cities -- is a good one. It's something I'll have to come back to at some point.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 18, 2011, 04:55:34 am
Quote
One Safehouse
1. The primary purpose of having multiple safehouses in LCS is to shake the police off your trail and mitigate risk to low-heat Liberals. There may be Zombie attacks, but the heat mechanic won't work in such a way that the same safehouse management tactics would help anyway.
2. Having one safehouse will simplify the interface, especially personnel and inventory tracking, and it will focus your safehouse investments on depth (lots of improvements/upgrades in one place) rather than breadth (get the same few improvements/upgrades in lots of places).
3. Attacks on your safehouse will be much easier to balance if all your eggs are in one basket, instead of having arbitrarily strong/weak safehouses scattered about.

I'm going to quibble with this assessment, because I think maybe you're extending LCS' game play beyond its genre.

To me multiple bases in zombie apocalypse games serve these additional purposes:

-Escape. Thought it's counter to the doomsday scenario of ZA games, it's a legit tactical consideration. While putting all your eggs in one basket might make things more defensible, it's still putting all your eggs in one basket. Always having an exit plan is just good ZA preparation, it's part of accepted wisdom of the genre. There's no point to having an escape plan if you've got no where to escape to.

-Reconnaissance. The BIGGEST problem with many ZA games is that, due to the design, exploration becomes exponentially more difficult the farther you get from home base. To the point where the risk almost completely outweighs the reward. Fort Zombie provided an excellent example of this. It was suicide to pursue a mission more than 1/2 way across the city map. You'd almost never make it back before nightfall, or in one piece. With multiple forward bases, exploration and risk scale better together. You don't necessarily create a 2nd mega-base, but you create a forward outpost that lets you extend your exploration radius without just throwing yourself to the zombies.

-Caches. This is the BIG one to me. No zombie games really account for this specifically, it's always a by-product of the item system and the fact the world is populated mostly by zombies. If you're setting up forward bases, the next logical thing is to stock those bases with a few supplies. Some extra ammo, food and medical supplies. Maybe you come back and visit a cache and find there's some bikers camping on it, because they stumbled on to a lot of supplies and thought they'd hit the lottery. Take Rogue Survivor for example. Caches there are important because everyone wants the goods you're stockpiling. It's also important in terms of logistics and security. I want a zombie game that acknowledges caches as important enough to commit some extra thought to them.

You don't NEED multiple bases to achieve some of these effects, but they all contain the spirit of game play that says "i'm not pigeon holed to where I started, I have some control over my environment and I can make many tactical decisions outside my base that don't involve loot, running, shooting or hiding."

It's harder to balance for sure, but I think the pay off in tactics, replayability and a connection to your in-game strategy makes up for it. Like, with Fort Zombie, I never felt like I was making meaningful decisions. Sure you pick the mission, build some barricades at base, tell people what to do with their time...but that was it. The simulation was very narrow. Compared to say, Rogue Survivor Alpha, where you don't get any formal base or survivor control mechanics but you get the freedom to choose where you set up. I think the freedom of choice wins out over just the standard Zombie Apocalypse base mechanic, even when it's dressed up with things like upgrades (which people will always try to get, the difference there is only in how much they have to sacrifice to get it or in what order they acquire them.)

I'm not saying I won't be happy without multiple bases. But really look into the possibility of achieving the same sorts of effects without straight duplicating the main base. For example, if we could "declare" buildings as an outpost or cache, and it might show up on the map or provide us some options like getting some working power, or something....that would be enough to satisfy me. It totally side steps the issue of multiple squads too, which I agree makes this simulation much more difficult to design, because it's not creating the expectation of a whole second base that could support 30 or 40 people. It implies that forward bases are small and functional but they never overshadow your main base for security, the breadth of options or as a living space.

Put another way: a 20x20 concrete maintenance shack out back of a school doesn't make a great base. But as a place to rest, hide, heal or store things it's ideal, and I hope the game achieve that in a way that's more fun and detailed than just "Pick a building and throw stuff in there, it will be there when you come back."
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Innominate on June 18, 2011, 06:17:37 am
I think a one-squad pseudo-multiple base system would be nice. Squads could take equipment to a secondary base or fortify it, or use it as a staging point for actions, but while doing so would be considered the "active" squad. Something like:

Perform squad action
[Choose destination
Choose action
Action completed] *repeated until returned to base, or a full day has elapsed, or whatever makes the most sense with your data structures

E.g.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Even though this takes two days to complete, you would not be able to form a new squad or do any non-base actions in the mean-time. Prolonged activity outside the base would still be dangerous; you would have to retreat to a less-fortified safehouse (perhaps only saved by the smaller numbers in your squad avoiding notice - though I'd love it if that could all come crashing down if you skirted too close to nightfall and got followed), and couldn't fetch any equipment or food for the main base while you were away. But it would reward players who managed to keep some of their eggs in a separate basket, and might become necessary as you exhaust the resources closer to the main base. So it provides what I think is a good compromise between strategy and the ease and quality of implementation.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 18, 2011, 06:29:53 am
Quote
E.g.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
(click to show/hide)

Exactly what I'm thinking. Perhaps after you "declare" a building as an outpost, it asks you to give it a designation. Forward Base Alpha, Camp Freedom, Adams School Safehouse, whatever. Depending on the movement mechanics of the squad, yeah, it gives you a place to travel directly to since it's a "known" location to your squad and allows them to think a little more deliberately about what they can do to the building (build containers, barricade and/or reinforce, power and lighting, creature comforts like a bed, ect...) By establishing forward bases you slowly extend your range of exploration....but all of these areas are still subject to zombie attacks or NPCs, so you don't really create a safety ring around your main base, more you create nodes of relative safety. But these things would take time and lot of a material investment you may not have or may not want to sacrifice over your base.

You wouldn't want them to get too over developed otherwise it becomes a game of hoarding, zombie-apocalypse style. And because it becomes semi-redundant to make 10 fortified outposts for 5 survivors.

Maybe the # of outposts you could create could be controlled by some factor. A player skill or perhaps how much of the map they've actually explored.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: chaoticag on June 18, 2011, 10:14:01 am
Yeesh, for a second, I thought the site was actually blocked. I grew up seeing that damn page, and the fact that they made the logo a bit grayer now isn't all that much an improvement.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 18, 2011, 05:29:42 pm
I think you make a good argument, nenjin, and I certainly wouldn't want to reproduce Fort Zombie's system of artificially diminishing the size of the city as a side effect of incorporating travel time and a fixed base. I can't help but think of XCOM, where starting a new base was a major investment that took a lot of time and money, but had substantial strategic benefits. New bases could be staging points to protect other parts of the planet, or just manufacturing/research centers, since those activities required space and personnel that could be better devoted to combat-related tasks in the staging bases.

At the same time, I think the Fort Zombie syndrome can be mitigated with things like a central location for your safehouse and allowing travel directly between locations (rather than always running home between), as well as simply making fast travel take less time than they do. The heavy consideration favoring these workarounds is that I have a fairly limited amount of development time before I simply run out of money to pay rent and buy food, so I need to make sure the core gameplay is in place. I would like to eventually be free of this concern, but that's not the case for this game. You make a good case that the game would be better with multiple safehouses, but I think I still have to list it as a "nice to have" rather than a "must have". I will keep the possibility in mind though.

In other news, here's what I've been working on:

(http://www.jonathansfox.com/ZSS/zss_survivor_list_1.png)

What you're looking at is preliminary UI for survivor list, character sheets, squad formation, and activity selection, all on one screen.

Let's take a tour:

1. Survivor list in the top left. Most of the effort went here. Basic info about the character, a drop-down (with mini scroll bar) for setting activites on the fly, a scroll bar for navigating the list, check boxes for putting people into and out of the squad. I'll make the check boxes for adding more people gray out when the squad is full (of course, they're already gray... I'll figure something out). I'm pretty happy with how it turned out overall, though a lot of hand-wringing went into what information to display and how to organize it. These entries used to be one line, but I really had trouble fitting both the drop-down and the check box in the available space. Maybe if the right sidebar is removed it could be collapsed back to one line. I'm not sure off hand if that would be stretching the information too horizontally or not; if so, and I still want to do that, I'll have to alternate colors between entries to aid visual tracking.

2. Character sheet in the bottom left. This should look almost exactly like an LCS character sheet right now, because I haven't figured out exactly how I want to lay it out. Needs weapon at least on there as well, and a button to toggle views (switch to all skills, any other views that need to be added later). I'm not sure if weapon should be chosen here or on the map screen where you dispatch the squad; it might be better to list your five squad members and their weapons along the bottom or side there, and that would help you to visualize the squad all in one place. I'll need to do some more work on this.

I don't like having the character sheet in a frame below the list. That was how I originally sketched this screen, but the sheet is bulky and there are some clunky issues with how it determines what character is there. If I set it by mouse over, you can quickly preview different characters, but you can't easily move the mouse to the character sheet to interact with it (it would mouse over other characters on the way and switch which survivor is displayed). If I set it by click, it turns each list entry into a button. But the list entries already have two buttons on them, which would mean nested buttons, which is pretty painful. What I'm currently envisioning is that the list stretches from top to bottom, and there's a button to expand each entry in the list. Expanding that entry would append the character sheet for that character below their list entry and push the rest of the entries below that. You could expand or collapse as many characters as you want.

3. Navigation sidebar on the right. This was part of my initial sketches for this screen, but I don't like it. Huge real estate used to display little of importance. It can almost certainly be shrunk, possibly even removed and turned into a bottom or top bar across the screen, instead of down one side. We'll see. Also, the squads screen won't exist, and I probably need a research screen. More design is needed here.

None of the content is hooked up with anything yet, so, for example, the list of activities in the drop down, and the skills on the character sheet, are just there for illustration purposes to help me visualize it. Also, the visual look I'm going for with this is kind of a text based game with a GUI. It still feels terribly gray though. Maybe a beige paper-ish look would be better? For that matter, should the font be something handwritten instead of Courier New? Sketchy font is a more common convention in zombie games, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's what I should do. This is another area where I haven't pinned down what I want for the game yet.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 18, 2011, 11:34:50 pm
Question: What can you use in terms of art for the character page? Just solid colors? Can you import like, a background image to lay over it?

It's terribly gray, yes. Some more detailed borders (even a double line) on the buttons or fields would make it pop and give it some depth immediately. Colored font, where appropriate, will reduce the amount of gray the player is paying attention to.

I wouldn't go with a paper-color emulation unless you can add some sort of graphical backdrop to it. In my mind, a featureless beige page with text would look even more funky than slate gray. On the other hand....if the font backs up the beige color, you might be able to achieve the illusion that the player is looking at paper. I personally wouldn't mind the spiral note book or note pad look: yellow and/or off white with translucent teal lines across the page. You can probably do that without any sort of background image. If you CAN use a background image, some sort of overlay that has paper-like wrinkles would be a nice touch.

On the other hand....that screen is already quite full. There's not a lot of room between fields or anything, so adding much visual depth to it might make it look crowded. What about a clipboard, rather than a piece of paper? Clipboard paper documents are always checklists and things with boxes, that would work pretty well. But again, really pulling that off relies on some art assets.

On font: Sick of sketchy, for real reals. Yes, it's supposed to look either drawn or slightly fear-prone....but often it looks childish to me and it's fairly over done. As for what you could use.....I dunno, I'd start by genre rather than going by the names. Genre might help you narrow down conceptually what you want your font to be. Like, industrial. Futuristic. Thin profile. Gothic. Stuff like that. Typical "horror" fonts tend to all look cartoony, especially if they're using squiggles to remind you of blood. Font is just one of those things you have to spend 2 hours looking through them before you find one that speaks to you.

On Character sheet in the bottom left: What about a button that takes you to a full character screen pretty much like what LCS does? Or are you trying to avoid using more screens than necessary? To me the bottom left micro view combined with a clickable full page view would be just fine. Perhaps shift the character micro view to the top left. For myself, that's where my eyes go for "header" information, which is what the character view panel is. It's the header for whatever field you're looking at.

On the rest: Time is ever the great enemy. Whatever gets you closest to your financial goals before you starve is what's best, for sure. That said, on a later front, I think favoring a smaller outpost system in the end would be easier and jive better with the ZA game than what X-Com did. Half of that game becomes economic management exactly because of the depth of base building and investment. I think it'd be interesting to try something akin to it, but of an entirely different scope.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 19, 2011, 01:36:52 am
I can do background images, gradients, alpha, vector art, masking, animations, filters, anti-aliasing, blend modes, rudimentary 3D, you name it... Flash isn't perfect, but it's definitely hot stuff, and Adobe has it well documented and presented too. Its only real Achilles' heel is performance, and that's not an issue with this kind of game. The limiting factors for how good the UI looks are my ability and time.

I'm trying it out with a lighter gray and bold Cambria font (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambria_(typeface)). Cambria is a collaborative project between Microsoft and God, it's pretty much the most amazing font ever invented. It's not the least bit genre relevant, but I'm happy to have a clean, readable font that doesn't do anything fancy. Cambria also has the advantage that even bold, it's narrow enough that there are rarely space issues, but still extremely readable. Once I have a bit more done (I'm also going to mess with getting rid of the sidebar and try to incorporate the character sheet into the list, as described in my last post), I'll post a version two for comparison.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 19, 2011, 01:57:17 am
Well, I know contributing work is a sticky wicket for anyone wanting to do a commercial venture, particularly because you don't want to end up relying on other people's art for completion, compensation, yadda yadda....but I don't doubt a few here would be willing to chip in some art if you put out a call for it.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 19, 2011, 02:08:07 am
Unfortunately, Cambria looks kinda ratty when processed by Flash's anti-aliasing instead of Microsoft's, and I'd have to embed it and hand processing over to Flash or it wouldn't show up on Mac/Linux boxes. So I'm currently leaning toward just using Arial. What a shame.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 19, 2011, 05:06:39 pm
Surely there's something nicer that Flash can anti-alias other than Arial?

Don't mind me, I'm just a font nerd. The right font does so much for my immersion, especially when its a game that's less driven by graphics.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 19, 2011, 05:17:58 pm
Heheh, I'd go for handwritten with really great handwriting if I can find an appropriate font. Pretty cursive isn't what I have in mind; it has to be very readable. Architect handwriting, not doctor handwriting.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 19, 2011, 06:30:11 pm
(http://www.jonathansfox.com/ZSS/zss_survivor_list_2.png)

Lighter color, different font, sidebar moved to bottom, incorporated full character sheet into the list itself. You can expand/collapse any character's entry by clicking the +/- button. Squad membership changed from a check box to an option in the activity drop down. Currently working on making the data actually functional; you can see this is already done for the character name, occupation, and attributes. Skills are up next (and they will be more properly formatted when that happens).

If needed, there can be button to show the full skill list. However, I'm thinking this amount of space might be enough to show the full skill list already. Then again, it's usually more useful to see a summary of the top skills, rather than have to visually hunt for what the character's best skills are. Hmm.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 19, 2011, 06:34:29 pm
Lighter font does a lot for readability and now it doesn't look like console output.

I feel like I want a vertical line between the job fields on the right and the Level 1(10 XP/20 Next) on the left. Trying to use all that space for the full skill list seems like too much, there's plenty of room for another button to go to a broken out character sheet.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 19, 2011, 06:48:58 pm
I don't see much point in an even larger character sheet. The only thing to display is one weapon, five attributes, skills, experience, and injuries. I have everything but the weapon displaying here and I still have massive white space. Worst case, I can just add another 50-100 pixels onto the bottom of it.

Though its proportions are similar, this is much much larger than the LCS mini character sheet. That has only enough room for five skills vertically and less space horizontally.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 19, 2011, 08:05:46 pm
Quote
I don't see much point in an even larger character sheet. The only thing to display is one weapon, five attributes, skills, experience, and injuries. I have everything but the weapon displaying here and I still have massive white space. Worst case, I can just add another 50-100 pixels onto the bottom of it.

Not yet. Consider that if you left a text field for people to type in a character backstory, that's reason enough. In the same way LCS records crimes committed, you might have room for zombies killed, days survived, personality and/or descriptive traits....Not to mention you're probably going to need an expanded skill list, at some point.

Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on June 20, 2011, 01:27:11 am
Thanks for all your feedback, nenjin, it's very useful for me to have someone to bounce ideas off of. UI isn't a very glorious part of game design, but it's a very important one. LCS is notorious for its difficult interface, and I really want to ensure ZSS doesn't inherit that problem.

(http://www.jonathansfox.com/ZSS/zss_survivor_list_3.png)

I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. It could certainly be a lot better (including easy cosmetic things like subdividing the character sheet visually instead of just randomly plopping text down), but it's functional, fairly reasonable on the eyes, and hopefully very usable, all things I'm very glad for. I'm not sure if I want to have skill caps tied to attributes; this is open to revision if I elect to incorporate variable skill caps. It's a cool mechanic in LCS, but it's another one of those things that feels like it's something to look at later if I have time, rather than something worth investing effort into when the basic game still needs to come together.

I have various more significant improvements in mind, such as the ability to reskin the character's entry in the list, tinting it red, blue, yellow, green, or whatever based on any criteria you prefer, highlighting skills relevant to the task at hand, and tooltips on attribute and skill text. Those are all secondary though, and I'm ready to set this aside and focus on the next screen.

I think I'll tackle the map screen next. What I have in mind is a moderately zoomed-in map of the city, revealing only explored areas. You would be able to drag it around and select an area to dispatch the squad to. The squad then goes to a street near there and spawns next to a van. You can then explore the city at will from there, but the van serves as your return point from which you can fast travel back to base. The van also serves as a large container you can stash stuff in and take stuff out of, perhaps coming loaded with extra ammunition or medical supplies. Returning on foot would leave the van there along with anything stashed inside.

I'm thinking about altering the inventory system to one based on weight rather than slots. The reason for this is both pragmatic and idealistic: I want to have lots of items, and I don't want to incur the overhead of making unique art for them all. If I do this, items will be described in text in lists and won't just sit openly in the world. Instead, they'll be in containers, similar to Fort Zombie. Unlike Fort Zombie, I wouldn't have a search skill; it's kind of cool thematically and it forces you to clear an area before you loot it, but it feels more grindy than a truly mechanically interesting part of the game. Another convention to be avoided is huge numbers of empty containers you have to search. I'll just make anything with loot in it obviously glow the moment you see it and change the color of the glow once you've opened it and seen what's inside, or remove the glow entirely if you looted everything. I feel like grabbing stuff from the world should be a pretty low-stress endeavor. Bump into a cabinet you know has stuff in it, click take all or only click the items you want, move on. Pretty easy.

I'm not certain how this would interact with weapons. I think having graphics for weapons is a very good thing, much more important than having graphics for food or medicine, and if doing this I might replace the square icons which are very hard to fit weapons in (agonizing, in fact, since most weapons are FAR from square) and use larger, more realistic art assets for guns and swords and such.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: NRDL on June 20, 2011, 01:59:41 am
Nice interface, Mr. Fox!
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on June 20, 2011, 10:07:02 am
It looks very nice. My only complaint is the amount of light grey that the player has to look at, seeing as it comprises most of the screen.

Perhaps you can have the top part of the character's entry be a darker colour than the rest of it? That way, when it's collapsed, the entry looks different from the expanded entries. Just an idea of something that you could tweak. It looks nice as it is.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on June 20, 2011, 12:08:25 pm
I like the van idea, so few ZA games ever try to factor cars in there.

It would be fun IMO to attach some gameplay ideas to that. I.e. needing to collect fuel for the van as well as generators, and perhaps the ZA version of LCS' car chases, except where you run the risk of driving into a horde and get the van swamped by baddies.

Fort Zombie has the scout skill, which reduces travel times and chances to attack while traveling. Perhaps some sort of navigation/driving skill could reduce the amount of game time passed while traveling, and reduce the chance of getting "stuck." Because I imagine being a good navigator or having a sound grip of logistics in the fire-gutted, power line-toppled, car-strewn city of the ZA can only help.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Geen on June 23, 2011, 11:19:53 pm
Hm... Lookin' good so far. Can't wait to see more!
Perhaps you could add a more complex inventory, because I hate clothes to be just one item, for some reason.
Maybe survival supplies? Like flashlights, rations, and whatnot?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Fniff on June 24, 2011, 09:21:14 am
I think random social events in the base would be excellent.

There should be occasions when you run out of a certain thing (For this example, food) or one of group does something (Play loud music to mellow out that could make zombies attack more often.) which causes an event. There would be three choices.

1: The Nice But Uncaring Choice. Do not restrict food at all. Helps morale but your dwindling food supply will go even faster.
2: The Neutral But Unadventurous Choice. Restrict food, just don't fully. No advantages or disadvantage
3: The Nasty But Fair Choice. Have your squad practically starve for a few months, but when the food supply goes up again give food out. Morale goes down, but food will probably skyrocket.

This would feel more like an actual zombie movie, with backstabbing ahoy and you can't trust your friends fully. This is an angle that hasn't be explored all too often, and probably wouldn't require impossible amounts of code, but if it does, then ignore this.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Zangi on June 24, 2011, 09:39:18 am
Rations like Oregon Trail:
Full
Normal
Meager
and maybe... selective...  of course that could cause other problems...

Doesn't really need to be an event... just a decision made and changed as your food supply rots or when you find a surplus...   Or for morale/health...
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: NRDL on July 09, 2011, 09:16:27 am
Status update, pretty please?  :)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on July 09, 2011, 06:58:17 pm
At the moment, I'm taking a break to work on another, smaller project, so that I don't burn out from working on one thing all the time. Where I last left off, there was a scrollable city overview map working, and you could mouse over each building to get information about that building, then click to select that building for fast travel. In doing this I also cleaned up a lot of the code for map generation and got the pretty maze algorithm for map generation fully integrated, so that it uses that city map to generate building interiors and streets. I also improved the code for placing doors (it's faster and much smarter, and avoids some of the weird corner doors and holes that were in the first video), and I added support for crosswalks and street striping, though I have only tested this on the overview map, and still need to verify all is well when you actually run around in the street.

I still needed to hook up the ability to then dispatch your squad to the selected building, and make sure that buildings are spawning you outside one of their entrances. Once you can move between the strategic mode and the tactical mode, I can start having data carry between them (the squad you pick is what you're dispatched with, collect food to building up your stockpile, obvious things like that). For now though, I'm monkeying with a little game tentatively called Politician Apollo: Starfighter for President, a remake of first computer game I ever made.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Servant Corps on July 09, 2011, 09:41:37 pm
That's that one game where you have to run for Senator by killing the current Senator, and you get campaign donations based on what you do within the game...right?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on July 09, 2011, 10:07:11 pm
That's that one game where you have to run for Senator by killing the current Senator, and you get campaign donations based on what you do within the game...right?

Yeah, Politician Paul was a traditional top-scrolling space shooter where you have to maintain poll numbers with your impressive combat skills in order to keep donations rolling in with which to buy special weapons and repairs. Also, you had to keep special interests happy, since they dictated how good the powerups were -- so you'd need to avoid polluting space with your smoking ship to please the environmentalists if you want sweet armor upgrades, you'd get better weapon powerups if the ammo conservation league didn't see you wasting a lot of bullets, and the rich tech companies would give you big cash infusions if you used every opportunity to show off their powerful but very expensive range of secondary weapons. Ultimately you can win the election by the polls, or just survive long enough to blow up Senator Radcliffe when he shows up as the final boss, assuming you can.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Aqizzar on July 09, 2011, 11:23:30 pm
Okay, that's a hilarious and very inventive game idea.  Where can I see this game, and hopefully play it?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Strife26 on July 09, 2011, 11:33:48 pm
If memory serves, he can't release it because it was a school project done on with a development programmed licensed for edumacational-type purposes only.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on July 09, 2011, 11:55:18 pm
Pretty close, I actually signed over copyright on the game to the school. But hey, if I finish the remake, then I can release it. :) (The IP for the game's design elements, code aside, isn't copyrightable. I can clone my own games without trouble as long as it it's really a new game rather than a direct recreation.)

If you're returning because the "new" led you see that this post was edited, I made the text in the parentheses more accurate.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Strife26 on July 10, 2011, 02:43:19 pm
I totally returned for the new marker, thereby allowing people to follow the new marker to this post regarding the former new marker.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Duuvian on July 14, 2011, 06:12:40 am
The UI is looking good. I look forward to it.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: BeforeLifer on July 16, 2011, 07:06:18 pm
(http://www.jonathansfox.com/zombies.png)


 or gassing up a plane and flying to Madagascar.

(http://www.jonathansfox.com/humans.png)

LOL. Pandemic 2 Reffernce FTW.
There have been SOOO many times were i infect every place but madagascar before the big shut down of everything...
SOOO annoying i have never gotten madagsgar before...
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Elodie Hiras on July 16, 2011, 09:36:23 pm
I wonder why all the fuss about Madagascar... I mean, Madagascar was infected in ALL my Pandemic 2 games... New Zealand was a bitch though.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on July 18, 2011, 05:59:38 pm
islands are hard to infect except green land it never shuts any thing down in my games
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Strife26 on July 30, 2011, 02:06:37 pm
I always had trouble with Madagascar shutting down. Greenland was always really struggling to the end though, I'm fairly sure that their hospital won't shut down if there's even one guy to stock it.



Soooo, progress?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Supercharazad on July 30, 2011, 03:40:56 pm
I wonder why all the fuss about Madagascar... I mean, Madagascar was infected in ALL my Pandemic 2 games... New Zealand was a bitch though.

Madagascar have ONE way in and out. The airport. Once it closed, you had to start over because you'd lost. If you started anywhere outside the East coast of the USA, you'd probably end up with it locking and never opening.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: chaoticag on July 31, 2011, 12:32:49 pm
It was the seaport, and the one time I managed to start off as madagascar in that they shut down their port before the virus left :\
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on July 31, 2011, 02:39:34 pm
thats why you go with something likle coughing or sneezing no one shuts down a nation for the cold or a bad cough
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on July 31, 2011, 03:41:32 pm
thats why you go with something likle coughing or sneezing no one shuts down a nation for the cold or a bad cough

Apparently, in the game, you are the only bacteria/virus/parasite to exist. I once had a game where I had no symptoms at all. No coughing, no sneezing, no nothing. All I had were the traits that allowed me to spread through water/air etc. Guess what? The countries in the game still closed down airports and handed out gas masks for a disease that had no visible symptoms what-so-ever. Just to spite them I eventually added all of the symptoms possible.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on July 31, 2011, 03:56:25 pm
Soooo, progress?

Still on pause: Like LCS, I'm sure I'll get itching to work on it and then come back in a flurry of progress all at once. When I do, I will be sure to share the progress. :)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: ryan5050 on October 11, 2011, 08:27:16 am
Oh Johnny Boy. When do you think there
Could be a playable Beta of something
Along those line's. ?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on December 09, 2011, 09:16:52 pm
New video preview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h36CNbOLTBg

And a screenshot:

(http://www.jonathansfox.com/ZSS/zss_preview2_screenshot.png)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Atomicdoom on December 10, 2011, 03:34:54 am
ZOMBIE FEASTS ON BRAINS
ZOMBIE FEASTS ON BRAINS
ZOMBIE FEASTS ON BRAINS
ZOMBIE FEASTS ON BRAINS
ZOMBIE FEASTS ON BRAINS
ZOMBIE FEASTS ON BRAINS
ZOMBIE FEASTS ON BRAINS
ZOMBIE FEASTS ON BRAINS
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Pesi on December 10, 2011, 07:33:22 am
When I thought this game would follow LCS a lot more closely, In my mind's eye the 'alert level' would depend on the loudness of the guns used. When I saw you using the shotgun, I thought I would see zombies coming in from off-map.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-famous-zombie-movie-weapons-that-would-get-you-killed/
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: EuchreJack on December 10, 2011, 03:17:17 pm
That does bring up a good point: Zombies should migrate from off-map.  The player should never feel that they can just clear out all the Zombies and then safely loot the building.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Servant Corps on December 10, 2011, 07:07:12 pm
Here's something that I think should be in your initial release:

A game needs an endgoal, but that endgoal require some objectives for you to find. Someone mentioned the Madagascar endgame, where you try to escape, but why are you looting random buildings (other than to survive)?

My idea is that you try to loot these buildings to find information, about the zombies, the town, the rival human gangs, etc. Said fluff could be randomly generated as well, but it does need to provide valuable assistance to the player.

Why this information? That's what you will use ultimately to "purchase" the helicopter to escape to Madagascar. Fiat money would collapse in a post-apoc situation, and even if it's not a post-apoc situation, there would be a quarantine to prevent anyone from leaving. It's going to be hard to bribe soldiers with the limited amount of cash you can find on the street. But...if you have knowledge nobody else has, maybe that will be your ticket out of this dump (because knowledge is a very valuable commodity, necessary if anyone want to survive the spreading zombie threat).
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on December 12, 2011, 07:34:44 pm
Reactions (all bearing in mind the pre-alpha state of the game):

1- Love the blood effect. Needs MOAR blood effect, for zombie impacts too. Maybe their blood looks darker and funkier and they don't leave blood trails.

2- Love the item view. Something about zoomed up pixel art that just clicks with me.

3- The zombies and PC are placeholders I assume? With smooth movement between tiles, it implies you'll be doing actual animations at some point?

4- The zombie tile was hard for me to distinguish what I was looking at. I knew it was "not player" but I couldn't exactly see the zombie in it.

5- Backpedaling seems too effective. Would it be possible to reduce movement speed when you're shooting in a direction opposite of your movement?

6- Smooth tile animations allows for some interesting zombie movement. For example, zombies could occasionally lunge or lurch an additional tile (basically randomly altering their movement speed per tick or based on player proximity.) Nothing is less dangerous than a target with finite and knowable movement capabilities. Zombies being able to lunge an additional tile would encourage people to keep their distance. And with smooth tile movement it would actually look like a lunge too, instead of a zombie moving two tiles rather than one like it would be in TBS. The game has this real-time action thing going on right now, which looks pretty good. But it seems fairly easy to trivialize the zombies, even if they could break through windows and doors. Randomly making them faster would add some more twitch goodness to this.

7- Seemed a little too easy to sneak past zombies. One would think they would have a higher detection radius than something bumping into them. Especially with the flashlight on.

8- Guns should have different styles of shots. For example, I expected the shotgun to have a spread fire animation. Right now you're abstracting the value of a close range shotgun blast because it's firing a single shot. If you changed it to fire a spread pattern, you could better emulate a close range shotgun blast by making it about how many pellets hit versus the range difference.

9- Zombies should home in on blood trails like flies to poop.

10- Melee seems underwhelming. I know this is an pre-alpha state, but looking forward to bumping stuff as a melee attack, I feel like it's going to need more to make it feel meaty. So, consider things like: knock back, knocking down or maybe even an attack animation (even something as minor as showing a strike animation on a zombie or a bite animation on the player when they take a hit.) Maybe it's just a purely visual thing right now....but there should be more cues. Like, the player tile should flicker when they've taken damage. You've got the sound effect and the life bar but it still feels a little hollow. Like it's still operating on a TBS philosophy. (In that cues are much less important because the player has time to look around and gather information. In real-time, the game has to do more of that work for the player.)

11- I don't know how keen you are on sound engineering, but I'll say I think ZSQ will benefit greatly from as much ambient sound as you can throw in there. Footsteps, doors opening, rain, wind, distant thunder, panting and groans of pain, I think these will all deliver on atmosphere in a way that even tons of lighting and fancy furniture tiles won't pull off. Since you've moved this to real time, the value of sound effects versus them in a TBS game just went up a lot.

Quote
A game needs an endgoal, but that endgoal require some objectives for you to find. Someone mentioned the Madagascar endgame, where you try to escape, but why are you looting random buildings (other than to survive)?

12- Agreed. If you're going the pure exploration/combat route for your first release, consider a goal-based objective. I.e., survive 20 days, reach a certain point in a certain building plot alive, find an item, find "the way out." Because without a serious dose of "you can't win this", games like this tend to only be good for a play through or two before you're seriously only playing it for its tactical purity. The thing about LCS ect...which I'm sure you're aware of, is the player attachment to their characters and to their grand strategic design. That's what takes LCS from "played it" to "love it." Without lots of customizable characters or a grand strategic approach to explore....the game will need something.

For example, compare Project Zomboid. It's got it all. Sound, graphics, combat, atmosphere, more mechanics than you can shake a dead cat at....and yet it still lacks that key goal for people to do other than "survive", which in their highly detailed but very limited world.....gets you about 2 to 3 play throughs before you're done and there's almost no drive to play. Even for games that claim to just be tests of survival, there's always got to be something more going on there than just the pure skill challenge.

I see ZSQ falling into the same trap, where focusing TOO MUCH on the minute to minute gameplay only leaves the player with minute to minute interest. I'm not trying to convince you to change your design plan, which seems like a solid route to go. I would leave yourself some space for other things to frame what the player is doing though. Because I'll be honest, most games that bill themselves as exploration games rarely have the content to actually justify it. And zombie apocalypse games tend to offer THE LEAST exploration value because they're always focused on finding the exact same things: food, ammo, safety. You know what's out there, the only mystery is what form it takes.

Compare that to a fantasy game where you're not only finding gear, you're finding special gear, you're finding unique environments, story elements and tons of additional game play things like trinkets, player abilities, and on......To me, that's exploration, where there are dozens of things I'm hoping to find, some of them with absolutely zero game play impact. For a zombie apocalypse game to really live up to an "exploration" claim, it has to have more than 100 buildings full of ammo, weapons, armor, zombies and food. Because by 30% of the game, you don't NEED those things. You may WANT those things, but they're not excellent compelling reasons to play.

As another example, Rogue Survivor had a few sites of interest. The CERBERUS or whatever organization with the cool buildings. There were sewers too, which were so horrifying I never had the courage to explore them. Beyond the world-based things of interest, there was this nice skill mechanics for humans and zombies that gave you reasons to try and survive longer, to play the game again and see what you hadn't seen. It was a good start and I think between that, and Fort Zombie, with its varying plot design, you can see what I'm getting at. Going through 12 generic buildings, even if they're reasonably furnished, to stock up on things to keep me playing longer, doesn't really make it an exploration game in my book. Once you're satisfied that you've got the structure down and it's fun, really focus on the world. Because it's your canvas, more than the mechanics, the zombies or the meta-game, and it's what people will rely on to entertain them. Even if all the other points of interest aren't as deep as they could be, an interesting world will keep me coming back just for the sense of being there, if it's been done well.

And as a last example, Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2. Some of the excellent moments in that game have nothing to do with shooting things or staying alive. I remember once when I actually stopped to look around at all the graffiti and wall textures...how much character leapt out at me. Messages to loved ones scrawled on walls, blood splatters, corpses in obviously staged positions telling little stories about what happened to them in their corner of hell. Not all of that is extensible to a top-down, 2d game but the spirit of it is. I'll kill as many ZEDs as I have to, to see a world detailed like that. (And one would hope it's done in a slightly more interesting way than what most zombies games do, which is writing "THE END IS NIGH" on every wall.)

Well that turned into a huge ramble but I hope you find some of that feedback useful.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on December 12, 2011, 10:17:05 pm
Just to expand on Servant Corps idea.

So you start the game with a clear objective: escape the infection zone.

Your first actual objective should be obvious though: find out where the evacuation point is.

You could fulfill this first objective in various ways. Maybe you walk by a radio and you hear a broadcast. Maybe you talk to a survivor. Maybe you read a bit of grafitti. Or you just run into it.

So your objectives update. "Head to the evacuation zone at (x)."

So you get to the evacuation zone after many trials and tribulations. But it's a security gate, and the gate is locked! New objective: Find the watch commander's key.

Maybe you find info to where they are, or you just search until you find their corpse. So let's say you find the key, but you get infected in the process. So now you need to find a cure before you can go through the evacuation point, since they won't let an infected person out.

So there's like, 5 sub objectives hidden under one master objective. With random placement and some decent scripting and varieties, it would make for a lot of replayability.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: EuchreJack on December 13, 2011, 02:43:02 am
While I agree that moving backwards should be slower than moving forwards, I imagine that kiting would be the most effective way to fight zombies in real life, so it certainly shouldn't be nerfed too badly in-game.

Which brings up another point: How about hiding the area of the screen from the player that is behind the player?  I'm totally stealing this concept from the RPG Unrealworld, but in that game the player simply can not see what is behind them, but they can hear noises.  Scares the cr@p out of me, and it's not even a horror game.

They have a demo, so you can see the concept in action: Download page]http://www.jmp.fi/~smaarane/urw_downloads.html]Download page (http://www.jmp.fi/~smaarane/urw_downloads.html)

You just download the game, and you can play each character for 10 days (in game, sometimes you get an extra day or two) without paying them.  Otherwise your character dies automatically (although in some of my games, it has basically been a mercy killing  :P ).

Actually, I've seen this mechanic in several other games.  In X-Com, the aliens would shoot at you from out of the dark.  In Mount & Blade, the evil AI seems to love getting behind me and stabbing me in the back (literally).  I've even seen the visibility limited to in front of the character in other RPGs.  I think it would greatly add to the fear in this game.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: klingon13524 on December 13, 2011, 05:52:43 am
Yeah, just be able to see one or two tiles behind you.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: ryan5050 on December 13, 2011, 12:06:01 pm
Hey jon i saw it it looked very cool. (Business face)  8)

Many people see zombie diffrently Some think zombies should be slow and jerky in thier movement (Do to Rigor Mortis)
Or some like the dawn of the dead (Newer one) or left for dead zombies So i believe there should be a option To change these
Zombies. 



Ryan5050
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: EuchreJack on December 13, 2011, 11:43:55 pm
Yeah, just be able to see one or two tiles behind you.

Actually, in all the games I've seen, you can't see any tiles behind you.  No early warning, just dying.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: klingon13524 on December 14, 2011, 07:02:44 am
Yeah, just be able to see one or two tiles behind you.

Actually, in all the games I've seen, you can't see any tiles behind you.  No early warning, just dying.
It would be logical to be able to hear if something is right behind you, and it would help some with game balance.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on December 14, 2011, 02:05:05 pm
Thank you for all the suggestions -- I especially want to thank nenjin, with his/your huge list of cool ideas and reactions. Awesome and thank you! I'm still thinking about many of the ideas presented in this thread, but I want to respond to limited vision and facing issues, because it is a cool idea that comes with a huge bucket of problems for me if I were to implement it.

One approach to implementing facing would be to have the game automatically figure out what direction you're facing. Are you facing the direction of movement? Then you can't shoot while backpedaling. Are you facing the direction of shooting? That's going to be very frustrating because the direction you're shooting isn't directly under the player's control. In both cases, you need the ability to look around while standing still and doing nothing.

Having a lot riding on what direction the character is facing means you really have to give the player direct control over what direction the character is facing. That means the player has to handle another axis of input, not only in the heat of combat, but to do boring things like walk around a building. In UnReal World, for example, I can be standing next to my campfire, but need to actively think about how to move my character in order to step away from it and build something while still keeping the campfire in my field of view. It's very awkward and really doesn't serve a purpose most of the time. I actually think URW would be a better game without facing -- it would lose a fancy feature, but that fancy feature is rarely adding to the fun and constantly in the way.

It's much worse when the game is in real-time, because you need very fast facing controls -- a control stick or mouse, for example -- to keep the game from feeling like you're controlling a clunky robot. Humans are exceptionally agile, they can literally turn on a dime. Simply having a "steadily pivot left" and "steadily pivot right" pair of keys doesn't cut it unless you're playing a turn-based game, and even then it's extra button presses that normally don't matter.

Not having facing in the game just abstracts your awareness and streamlines basic actions. I do agree that it would be cool to have zombies able to come up behind you, but I think the cost of porting that feature to genres beyond turn-based tactical games like X-COM and Frozen Synapse, or first-person games, is too high to be worthwhile. I'm glad for the suggestion though, because I had to put a lot of time and thought into it to come to this conclusion. In this case though, I favor ease of use over coolness.

As a side note, because I'm planning to have mouse interaction with the HUD, and the mouse can easily leave the window and lose input in Flash, I don't want to tie facing to your mouse position. If you can't click "inventory" without your character looking at the south wall and getting helplessly chopped up by the zombies coming from the north, the game has a serious problem.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on December 14, 2011, 04:46:48 pm
Quote
As a side note, because I'm planning to have mouse interaction with the HUD, and the mouse can easily leave the window and lose input in Flash, I don't want to tie facing to your mouse position. If you can't click "inventory" without your character looking at the south wall and getting helplessly chopped up by the zombies coming from the north, the game has a serious problem.

Well there goes my "do what Smash TV did" suggestion. On the other hand, with the right keyboard shortcuts (space to fire, 1 for slot 1, 2 for slot 2), it could be accommodated. I've played a couple games with position detection in the main game window for facing, but also using the mouse for UI input commands. I won't say it was great, but it worked. To me the scarier problem is losing the mouse in Flash. But if you could get that solved I think I could deal. I understand though that's probably not what you're looking for. It's weird, on your last update I never would have thought this would end up as an issue, before the jump to real-time. For me, when it comes to games like this, I sort of desire a certain level of interference. What made Smash TV hard was the incredible amount of enemies. With fewer enemies, I would think there's more time to move first, fiddle with the inventory second. Consider that it might actually be sort of a realism element for you to have to take your mouse off the main screen to manipulate your inventory, just like you might have to set your shotgun down to go into your backpack to find more ammo.

Alternatively, you could do exactly what Smash TV did instead of just sorta doing it. And have 4 keys for movement, and 4 keys for directional fire. That would be a significant departure from how most games of this type handle though.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on December 14, 2011, 06:25:56 pm
As you say, interrupting shooting to go into inventory is pretty tolerable. I don't mind mouse to aim so much if it's not also controlling your ability to look around and watch the far door. I might experiment with mouse shooting, though it'll take a bit of work to fundamentally alter the combat model. Right now, the gunshots are just a visualization; the enemy takes damage before they even appear. If there's mouse shooting, I'll have to collision detect based on the shot. That isn't too difficult (I'm already doing that for glass breaking from gunshots), but it's still an inversion of the current system. (I don't like "two-fisted keyboard" control for shooting and moving.)

On the topic of animations, I'm trying to avoid having to do them. I'm doing all the art myself and the volume of it increases dramatically when animating. The "chits" were an attempt to avoid them appearing to need it. I whipped up some alternate character art in the style of the David E. Gervais Angband tiles, shown below.

(http://www.jonathansfox.com/ZSS/zss_preview2_screenshot2.png)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on December 14, 2011, 06:38:45 pm
Well, if you put out the call to Deon or other forum members for some simple bit art, I'm sure they'll oblige. If that doesn't intrude on your total ownership of the content.

I'm also not a fan of two-fisted shooting, at all, just throwing out options.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: EuchreJack on December 16, 2011, 07:54:58 am
In UnReal World, for example, I can be standing next to my campfire, but need to actively think about how to move my character in order to step away from it and build something while still keeping the campfire in my field of view. It's very awkward and really doesn't serve a purpose most of the time. I actually think URW would be a better game without facing -- it would lose a fancy feature, but that fancy feature is rarely adding to the fun and constantly in the way.

Good point, the facing in URW tends to lead to walking into campfires, then to dying.  Stupid deaths are no fun to the player.  And to be honest, I sort of hate the fact that I'm always getting stabbed in the back in Mount & Blade.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on December 16, 2011, 11:04:40 am
Again, having seen this in Project Zomboid, I've become a fan. But it's doing it in a fairly refined way (sprites fade to black silhouettes when you can only "sense" them) and they don't completely remove your rear-ward vision. It's just enough to make you paranoically check your 6 every 30 seconds, and scares the hell out of you when you turn around and see a HORDE materialize out of the shadows.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Montague on December 16, 2011, 07:49:15 pm
Seems to me that your squad should shoot in any direction without penality and don't need to have facing. If the token represents a half dozen people, they don't all need to rigidly face the same direction like spearmen in a phalanx or something. Abstract it a little, for game purposes it makes more sense. The gameplay can abstract some things as "squad tactics". Moving away from zombies while firing can be representive of a tactical frog-leap, with some individuals firing and some sprinting away and then switching roles. An individual can probably run and shoot wily-nily without having to worry about shooting their team mates.

I'd suggest a larger squad simply moves somewhat slower then an individual. It seems to me that a group of people in a combat survival situation will move more delibrately to keep the group coherant.

Perhaps larger or smaller groups could determine the attributes or abilities of the squad. A smaller squad is quieter or more efficient, a larger squad could boost morale or confidence of the individuals, better protection against zombies in melee, ect. A skill like "tactics" or "leadership" might enhance the bonuses and dampen the penalties of large groups, which might stack.

Also, I think keyboard for movement and mouse for targeting/shooting/menu would be dandy.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: CriticallyAshamed on December 17, 2011, 08:10:56 pm
All this mention of squads is surprising, although I'll admit I zoned out and didn't read the full thread. This doesn't mean we don't have the -option- to play as a single character right? I mean some of us are so socially incompetent that we like to imagine the lone-wolf situation.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on December 17, 2011, 10:49:25 pm
All this mention of squads is surprising, although I'll admit I zoned out and didn't read the full thread. This doesn't mean we don't have the -option- to play as a single character right? I mean some of us are so socially incompetent that we like to imagine the lone-wolf situation.

At first "lone wolf" is going to be the only way you're allowed to play -- I want to add support for gathering more people and acting in squads at some point in the future though.
Title: .
Post by: Yannanth on December 19, 2011, 10:55:34 am
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Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Rumrusher on December 19, 2011, 02:04:01 pm
All this mention of squads is surprising, although I'll admit I zoned out and didn't read the full thread. This doesn't mean we don't have the -option- to play as a single character right? I mean some of us are so socially incompetent that we like to imagine the lone-wolf situation.

At first "lone wolf" is going to be the only way you're allowed to play -- I want to add support for gathering more people and acting in squads at some point in the future though.
That reply made me brimm up with nostalgia! My favourite game of all time (if you excuse the bugs and insane difficulty due to the unpredictability of the AI), Hidden & Dangerous 2, called these modes exactly the same!

I have an idea; along with the standard campaign mode (that's what it was called in that game), in H&D2 fashion, you should have a "lone wolf" mode in which perhaps you have to fight other survivors in boss-like battles and live on your own like some crazy bastard. Obviously, the difficulty would be higher but because you're just one poor sod among myriads of zombies and a few well-armed irritable survivors--their strength should be toned down a bit as well so not to make the game impossible.

Mind you, H&D2 was a tactical shooter in which you infiltrate enemy camps and stuff to steal plans (and kill numerous Nazis and Italians along the way) so don't take any inspiration from that, it's just an idea!

Completely unrelated, I'd recommend the book "The Road" for some inspiration as far the environment and stuff goes. It's post-apocalyptic, not zombie, but still very powerful and it's an easy read with rather simplistic language. Glad I picked it up. The focus is always on the environment--you don't even learn the protagonists' names! That's why I think it would be brilliant for you to check out, I'm sure others can vouch for me if you remain unconvinced. :)

Toning down other survivors just because someone wants to play hermit seems like a buzz kill.
Kinda like finding out the dwarf mode gives you easier enemies if you happen to kill every one but one guy and try to maintain a fort that way.
Title: .
Post by: Yannanth on December 21, 2011, 08:54:07 am
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Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Deon on December 21, 2011, 07:46:43 pm
Well, if you put out the call to Deon or other forum members for some simple bit art, I'm sure they'll oblige. If that doesn't intrude on your total ownership of the content.

I'm also not a fan of two-fisted shooting, at all, just throwing out options.
Sup!
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 07, 2012, 03:33:52 am
Happy New Year!

One resolution from me is to publicly update ZSS each week, with a development update and a playable release. That starts today -- even though the game is totally broken right now. Rain or shine, I'll be releasing updates each Friday.

I'm in the middle of extending the new engine to support the large open world of the previous engine and integrate the city-generator for the first time. The game is partially disassembled and I'm going through it slowly putting features back in -- I've done this twice now, because my inexperience with engine architecture keeps catching up with me. Many things, such as enemy AI, combat, and opening doors, are currently inoperable, but can be re-added fairly easily. The city generator is now integrated for the first time, and one sample building is being loaded in. I'm not satisfied with the way the buildings are interacting with the street layout, and have been thinking of different ways to arrange buildings around streets.

You can play the current build of the game here:

www.jonathansfox.com/ZSS/Z_Alpha.swf

WASD or number pad to move. F to toggle flashlight. Almost everything else is broken -- I'll have things in a somewhat more playable state next week.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on January 07, 2012, 03:36:11 am
Hey Jonathon, I thought I'd just mention there's a typo in your Hawking quote, unless you're trying to be clever. :P
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 07, 2012, 03:44:16 am
Hey Jonathon, I thought I'd just mention there's a typo in your Hawking quote, unless you're trying to be clever. :P

Well that sure takes away from the seriousness of it. Thanks.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: mainiac on January 07, 2012, 03:56:15 am
The smooth scrolling movement in this version makes it feel like the PC is skating if you hold down a movement key and sway from side to side.  Kinda hypnotic.  I suddenly wished there were a zombie apocolypse themed skate park that I could glide my way through, humming a jaunty tune while weaving between the undead.

Make roller skates an item in this game!  Penalty to melee attacks but bonus to speed.
Title: .
Post by: Yannanth on January 07, 2012, 01:15:35 pm
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Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on January 07, 2012, 01:21:59 pm
Glad to see this wasn't abandoned, I hadn't checked in a long time.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 07, 2012, 03:21:07 pm
text like "Fists" and the numbers in the boxes should not be selectable (I think you convert them to symbols? Haven't used Flash in a while but I used to be decent with it).

It's super easy, I just haven't bothered to fix that yet. Literally just one line to set a property on the text. textField.selectable = false.

The FPS is surprisingly low and I wouldn't expect the game to be doing many computations or anything! Even when moving, the game runs at a constant 8/9 FPS. I found this quite odd. With the flashlight on, it drops by 1 FPS. When switching tabs (Firefox), down to 4 or 5. Though it is almost always at 8 FPS.

I assume the "graphics update" had a high ms count, and logic would run multiple times and be very low ms despite this? The graphics update includes lighting and field of view, which is by far the most expensive operation I have running. I may need to change my algorithm -- it works nicely, but it's a major performance hit right now.

I wonder, will the character sprite change depending on what you are holding? He seems to be holding a shotgun or rifle and a pistol if I'm not mistaken, but I had just my fists "equipped". His shirt is a bit small as well! Or he's just really fat and it doesn't cover his enormous belly though that doesn't seem to be the case. :P I hope you'll be able to play as a female character too.

I wasn't originally planning to do this, but after playing a bit of DCSS, I may eventually want to make the character's appearance and equipment visibly change. We'll see!

As for the map generation, it needs a little bit of work. It seems that almost every building is a commieblock, really large and with a wide courtyard but billions of windows. Will you be able to go up and down the floors as well? Going down the road on the far left of the map makes all buildings seem enormous though, and with few places to turn.

Yeah, there's only one building being read in from file and stamped down, and everything else other than that is an LCS-style building. I want to make sure I have the block size decided before creating a bunch of custom buildings that may eventually be the wrong size. I'm also looking at altering the way buildings are clustered around streets, making many smaller buildings, few that a full block in size.

By the way, could you program the arrow keys for movement as well? I'm not left-handed but it would be nice, I'm just naturally drawn to those keys I guess!

Yes, that shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on January 07, 2012, 05:47:34 pm
Quote
I wasn't originally planning to do this, but after playing a bit of DCSS, I may eventually want to make the character's appearance and equipment visibly change. We'll see!

Beg, borrow or steal what you can from DCSS. I think for 2D Roguelikes, it's a title that really has its shit together, by virtue of having moved on to all the sundry details that really fill out the game. The customizable and gear-reflecting paper dolls are just one of several things that its maturity as a game has allowed. Then again, it's also a coordinated group effort.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 07, 2012, 05:53:22 pm
First off: graphics are quite decent though the flashlight effect could be a bit sexier.

Do you have any ideas of what would make the flashlight sexier?

Quote
I wasn't originally planning to do this, but after playing a bit of DCSS, I may eventually want to make the character's appearance and equipment visibly change. We'll see!

Beg, borrow or steal what you can from DCSS. I think for 2D Roguelikes, it's a title that really has its shit together, by virtue of having moved on to all the sundry details that really fill out the game. The customizable and gear-reflecting paper dolls are just one of several things that its maturity as a game has allowed. Then again, it's also a coordinated group effort.

I agree with this entirely. It's a fantastic game and is a tremendous credit to the genre. For anyone who hasn't played, you can grab it here (http://crawl.develz.org/wordpress/), or play online.
Title: .
Post by: Yannanth on January 07, 2012, 07:35:00 pm
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Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 07, 2012, 08:17:26 pm
I implemented a new lighting and field of view algorithm to speed the game up. Performance gain is small on my computer because I'm on a very fast computer, but it should improve framerates on slower computers substantially. The disadvantage is that the new lighting algorithm is not as generous about what tiles you can see, but I think it's a good tradeoff.

Spoiler: "Screenshots" (click to show/hide)


First off: graphics are quite decent though the flashlight effect could be a bit sexier.
Do you have any ideas of what would make the flashlight sexier?
I was thinking maybe a circular effect with a better fade towards the edges. In other words, the fading effect should not align to the tiles but be sort of independent. It's only a minor thing but the flashlight does seem to make thing really "blocky" right now and I know we're used to ugly interfaces (CLI) but for a mainstream audience it is better to polish out these things. But don't focus on it unless you feel like procrastinating. :P

Yeah, I'm probably going to stick to tile-by-tile lighting. I loosely know how to do sexier lighting, but the time investment on my part to implement it isn't really worthwhile here, to my thinking.

So what about the other stuff I mentioned, like sleeping? As for houses, maybe they can have certain random attributes... like being full of corpses (is this possible in a zombie universe?) or full up with food in some basement. Or an underground shed in the garden, as if they knew what was going to happen (but didn't live to see their plans through!). How about that?

I haven't nailed down these details, but they sound good. My approach to some of this gameplay stuff is going to be iterative -- implement some gameplay, play the game, decide what it needs. Like a cook improvising by tasting and deciding it needs more salt. I am planning to have hunger and tiring, but they're not implemented right now.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: mainiac on January 07, 2012, 08:31:24 pm
But what about the roller skates man?  Will there be roller skates?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 07, 2012, 08:33:58 pm
But what about the roller skates man?  Will there be roller skates?

It's too early for me to say. It sounds amusing and fun though.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Montague on January 08, 2012, 12:12:04 am
So, I guess this is critism, but dunno how excited I am about another game about zombies. I think if there is going to be a sort of successor to LCS I'd like to see it as a insurgency type game. The LCS model seems suited for a strategic game where the player controls a small force resisting against a much greater force. I think there is more gameplay and strategic possibility in a game that pits a player against something like an alien invasion or occupying Army or government, rather then just zombies. You'd have more types of enemies and more things to interact with and things to do in a terrorist cell/ war-type setting. With a zombie game, you just have zombies, which I'm not sure offers too much variety to keep it interesting in comparison to what you can present in a different setting.

I think the zombie genre has been done to death and I think it limits freedom of play a LCS-style strategy or simulation type game is capable of. I think the game in development now could be reworked as a sort of urban guerrila warfare game, with base and personnel management elements, equipment and things to be developed and a wide scope of goals and gameplay styles. I don't know how well these would work in a game about zombie survival. I's keep what has been worked on already as a "zombie apopcalypse mode" game option, or a result of player actions in the game (terrorists using a biological weapon) or something to that effect. A zombie strategy game alone, seems a little limited and boring to me.

The basic idea of an LCS successor is awesome, but why zombies?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 08, 2012, 06:56:05 pm
So, I guess this is critism, but dunno how excited I am about another game about zombies. I think if there is going to be a sort of successor to LCS I'd like to see it as a insurgency type game. The LCS model seems suited for a strategic game where the player controls a small force resisting against a much greater force. I think there is more gameplay and strategic possibility in a game that pits a player against something like an alien invasion or occupying Army or government, rather then just zombies. You'd have more types of enemies and more things to interact with and things to do in a terrorist cell/ war-type setting. With a zombie game, you just have zombies, which I'm not sure offers too much variety to keep it interesting in comparison to what you can present in a different setting.

I think the zombie genre has been done to death and I think it limits freedom of play a LCS-style strategy or simulation type game is capable of. I think the game in development now could be reworked as a sort of urban guerrila warfare game, with base and personnel management elements, equipment and things to be developed and a wide scope of goals and gameplay styles. I don't know how well these would work in a game about zombie survival. I's keep what has been worked on already as a "zombie apopcalypse mode" game option, or a result of player actions in the game (terrorists using a biological weapon) or something to that effect. A zombie strategy game alone, seems a little limited and boring to me.

The basic idea of an LCS successor is awesome, but why zombies?

I don't blame you for being unenthusiastic about zombies. There have been so many games and movies on the subject in the last five to ten years, we're in a kind of "zombie golden age" -- or a zombie ghetto if you're not so hot on the subject. There's still appetite for them though, even if it's not universal. You're right, the engine could be turned around to fit any number of themes, and I'm not planning to throw all the work I did on this game out once I've made a zombie game with it. Maybe another game that uses a similar engine would be appropriate. I certainly think a more direct LCS clone with a fancy interface and shiny graphics would be cool! That said, I'm pretty set on this theme for the game I'm making now.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: EuchreJack on January 09, 2012, 02:21:16 pm
I remember there used to be a game on BYOND where you were a drug dealer, interacted with the other gangs, bought and sold weapons/drugs/etc, and could even recruit random people into your gang.  I'd like to see this system used to make a game like that in the future.  Anyone remember what game that was?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Montague on January 11, 2012, 12:42:13 pm
I don't blame you for being unenthusiastic about zombies. There have been so many games and movies on the subject in the last five to ten years, we're in a kind of "zombie golden age" -- or a zombie ghetto if you're not so hot on the subject. There's still appetite for them though, even if it's not universal. You're right, the engine could be turned around to fit any number of themes, and I'm not planning to throw all the work I did on this game out once I've made a zombie game with it. Maybe another game that uses a similar engine would be appropriate. I certainly think a more direct LCS clone with a fancy interface and shiny graphics would be cool! That said, I'm pretty set on this theme for the game I'm making now.

That's cool, its not like a zombie theme is completely without merit or anything, just seems a simple premise for a strategy/simulation genre game, but I suppose that isn't such a bad thing if its the first project made with the new engine. Zombies or not, I'm definately going to check it out regardless.

I remember there used to be a game on BYOND where you were a drug dealer, interacted with the other gangs, bought and sold weapons/drugs/etc, and could even recruit random people into your gang.  I'd like to see this system used to make a game like that in the future.  Anyone remember what game that was?

I remember something like this, even had a commodity market determined by player trends for drug prices and whatnot. I think there are a lot of games like this out there right now, of various quality. I'd almost like to see something like a game where you play as a mercenary outfit/ PMC/ drug cartel, with freedom to do whichever gameplay style you'd like. Manpower, recruiting, training, equipment, money and base management and all that sort of thing. That always seemed like a good concept for a game, but never seen a really good example of one done well, most games with that sort of theme sucked. MGS Peace Walker, maybe, just because it didn't suck, but was'nt exactly very indepth or strategy focused either.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 13, 2012, 11:01:30 pm
Friday update!

Key Changes:
- New faster lighting algorithm
- Zombies with zombie AI
- Shooting (no melee yet)
- Window breaking
- New crosshair on targeted enemy

Playable Build:
www.jonathansfox.com/ZSS/Z_Alpha_Week2.swf
- Click the screen to give it keyboard focus.
- Use WASD, number pad, or arrow keys to move.
- F to toggle flashlight.
- Space to shoot.

I started the week by working to optimize the lighting and field of view calculations, substituting a faster but more restrictive algorithm. Performance gains seem to be good, but I'm still testing on a relatively fast machine, and will need to hear how the game is running on other computers as well. I added zombies, zombie movement and hunting, window breaking, and shooting. I needed a break from just re-implementing old features, so I also added a crosshair that shows on the currently targeted zombie if the attack button is being held.

The previous overlay for bullet trails actually used a map-sized bitmap in memory that was written to and erased from on a frame-by-frame basis, which was forgivably clunky on a small map, but proved completely unfeasible on the huge map I'm currently using. The new tracer fire looks almost the same, but should run much faster -- the only major difference is that the layering has the gunshots drawing on top of the player and the zombies, rather than the characters drawing over the gunshots. I liked the other way more, but I'll need to change how the characters are drawn to support moving them off the map layer.

Of the things in the preview video that aren't yet re-implemented, the major remaining features are melee attacks, blood, door opening, and items. Weapons are only half-made -- they can shoot, and track ammo, but aren't in the world and don't interact with the HUD properly.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: mainiac on January 13, 2012, 11:29:18 pm
Hooray for skating around and dispensing lead medicine to the undead!
Title: .
Post by: Yannanth on January 14, 2012, 09:46:16 am
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Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Fniff on January 14, 2012, 02:58:40 pm
Well, I learned that Radiohead is pretty good for "Running away from the undead" type situations.

Anyway, this is really good! Please, continue.
Title: Re: Gee
Post by: Rumrusher on January 15, 2012, 11:38:37 am
Toning down other survivors just because someone wants to play hermit seems like a buzz kill.
Kinda like finding out the dwarf mode gives you easier enemies if you happen to kill every one but one guy and try to maintain a fort that way.
Alright them Mr Grammar Nazi crossing eveything out, I got a bit confused with my use of language in my ecstasy of joy at hearing "lone wolf"! I was basically saying this: a mode in which you cannot have other survivors with you. But that would take a substantial chunk out of the game, not to mention it would make it devilishly difficult!

Hence, the strength of the baddies would be toned down a tiny bit and all the survivors that previously existed in the world are now your enemies!
You are not a hermit, you're a paranoid maniac who shoots anyone who comes by their way!
Grammar nazi? I was not crossing things out for Grammar, I was crossing things out for humor sake bad jokes only I got going back to discussion. Why not have a "EASY NORMAL HARD" mode and start off with no one? That way those who want to go Paranoid Maniac on their own whims can do so(with selection of difficulty they can play this easier or hard) and those who want to be a loner hermit who trades, at least peaceful can get their way, or go through the game normally.
I was thinking of those who want to role play.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: SealyStar on January 15, 2012, 12:08:17 pm
Very interesting so far.
But I'd really appreciate an ability to, y'know, choose which Zed I'm shooting at.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 17, 2012, 03:43:08 am
Talking of dark road, a cool graphic element could be a broken street light that keeps buzzing on and off. That would be sort of creepy, brilliant for atmosphere. You should look at this (http://armorgames.com/play/12009/the-last-stand-union-city) game for a bit of atmosphere. Con Artist always pulled off the zombie atmosphere really well in his Flash games.

The problem with that currently is that I believe lighting and field of view are by a good margin the slowest operations in the game; more dynamic lighting would probably slow the game down further. I'll need to work on optimization before I can get too fancy with the lighting, since the game still isn't hitting my target framerate.

I don't really understand the technical details of how trace fire works in the way you explained them but I would recommend that the trace is created after you step on a tile should you be moving. If it's created when you are halfway between two tiles, it seems like you're moving faster than the speed of light.

I don't fully understand what the issue you're identifying is -- the trace is created from the center pixel of the player's sprite, regardless of whether they're moving or not. It may be one frame off, so the trace may lag behind the player's center by one frame's movement when the player is moving. This isn't very noticeable on my computer, but I noted your screenshot has 3 logic updates per graphics update due to the low framerate, so it's possible the game is running slowly enough that the player is getting quite far ahead before the trace displays. Does that seem like it describes the problem, or am I misinterpreting?

The AI has a bit of a problem with this. I got stuck here for instance because I ran out of ammunition:

Spoiler: "image" (click to show/hide)

Obviously, I'd have my fists or a knife (+1 if you include a katana, or even better, a chainsaw) to back me up in situations like this but the way they all gang up on you feels a little unfair.

It makes sense that zombies would move slowly through obstacles, so I'll look at making it harder for them to go through windows. With the situation you depicted, I think once the zombies can beat you up and once you can kill them without a gun, being sandwiched like that will be a lot less annoying. You'll either chew your way out of it or you'll die. Both of those features will be ready for this Friday -- I can promise that because they're working on my computer right now. ;)

Finally, a radical recommendation: please make weapons work with clips rather than reloading from the number of bullets you have. It feels unrealistic otherwise. No, you don't need to implement a way to prepare clips by filling all the ones you have with bullets. No need for realism on this scale, but I believe having clips rather than reloading bullets directly (in just one second?!) would be a lot better and make the game that much harder. But not too much. It would make you consider your limited resources, though.

I'll have to think about that. I'm planning to have interchangeable weapons using common ammo, so you can use any pistol ammunition in any pistol. It's not super realistic, but that abstraction streamlines things. The problem that poses is that if I store ammo as a number of clips, the same amount of ammo magically turns into more or less bullets depending on the capacity of the gun you're using.

Nevertheless, this was a great release that definitely reaffirmed my faith in your skills, when is the release date? :)

A lot of the engine is done. Content and gameplay logic are flashier and more fun than working on engine code, so I'm hoping things move pretty quickly from here. That's just a hope though, and I can't say more yet; I may be better able to estimate when more of the game is in place.

When I get close to release, I'll have to stop releasing updates and pull the weekly builds down so that I can prepare to seek out sponsorship money. The sponsor will want the first release of the finished game to be on their website, and since they'll be paying me the moneys, I'll have to respect that. Once the finished game is online, it can be freely distributed throughout the internet. I'll link to it as well, of course.

Very interesting so far.
But I'd really appreciate an ability to, y'know, choose which Zed I'm shooting at.

To support that I'd probably have to use the mouse pointer to aim. Trying that is something I'll think about at least; it'll take a bit of work, but it's certainly possible.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: EuchreJack on January 19, 2012, 09:29:19 pm
I like the automatic firing, could that be kept with the manual aiming as extension of it?

On the other hand, I imagine most gamers find automatic functions on an action game to be counter-intuitive.  While automatic action and counter-intuitive actions are fine for us B12 gamers, Joe Gamer may not approve.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 20, 2012, 03:59:49 pm
Another Friday update!

Key Changes:
- Melee attacks, including a new knife weapon
- Zombies can attack you and kill you (you can reset the game with escape)
- Door opening and closing (close by holding shift while moving into the door)
- New minimap
- Optional mouse targeting to manually select enemies to attack

Playable Build:
www.jonathansfox.com/ZSS/Z_Alpha_Week3.swf
- Click the screen to give it keyboard focus. Click enemies to mark them as a preferred target.
- Use WASD, number pad, or arrow keys to move.
- Hold space to attack, or bump into enemies to melee them. 1-3 to switch your primary weapon.
- Press escape to reset the game if you die.
- F to toggle flashlight. No flashlight makes you super stealthy.
- Hold shift when moving into an open doorway to close the door instead.

This week I fixed a couple of bugs, then got started on the next core gameplay element -- melee attacks and zombies hitting you. This went pretty quickly because I'd already implemented it in the earlier build, seen in the latest preview video, so it finished up fairly early, including a completely new weapon (the knife). Once player death was in the game, I added a reset button and tweaked some numbers to play with balance and feel for the game, such as making zombies handle difficult terrain much more slowly than humans, making zombies sturdier, and slowing down your move speed.

I then enabled door opening, and added door closing by holding shift when bumping into the door. I'm not sure if that's the best way to handle it; maybe clicking the door, or having shift be a global interaction-on-bump key, complete with icons over things you can interact with while holding it (push/pull icon over a piece of furniture, open/close icons over doors, etc). I have to think about that some more. I moved on to flashing the player and zombies when they take damage, which I think is a small thing that really helps the feel of the game. The videos showed zombies flickering briefly when hit, but I prefer this. I then added a minimap in the bottom of the screen, which shows a scrolling view of the local area of the city you're in, and remembers what tiles you have explored, so you can start filling out your map of the area. The underlying map used by the minimap can later be used in a larger map too.

After serious consideration, I think that point-and-shoot isn't very compatible with the way I'm physically presenting the world, and the very tile-based gameplay I'm going for, so I started to think about other ways to target enemies of your choice. The last thing I did for the game was put the ability to click a zombie and force all attacks to go for that target. The lock-on is only lost if the zombie dies or drops out of range or view; you can shoot past other zombies to target one in the back.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: klingon13524 on January 21, 2012, 04:06:41 am
Now Curses gets to be an even slower forum!
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 21, 2012, 04:25:18 am
Now Curses gets to be an even slower forum!

I know, right? But it's not appropriate for me to co-opt it into Jonathan S. Fox's personal projects forum.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Urist McScoopbeard on January 21, 2012, 08:42:20 am
Quote
I'll have to think about that. I'm planning to have interchangeable weapons using common ammo, so you can use any pistol ammunition in any pistol. It's not super realistic, but that abstraction streamlines things. The problem that poses is that if I store ammo as a number of clips, the same amount of ammo magically turns into more or less bullets depending on the capacity of the gun you're using.

Streamlined? you fool, this is bay12 home of the MOST COMPLICATED GAME to exist why the hell do we want things simple? do a thousand different types of ammunition!!! (unless of course that's a bit too much to code)
Title: .
Post by: Yannanth on January 21, 2012, 10:01:27 am
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Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: mainiac on January 22, 2012, 01:20:18 am
Is it supposed to be that you can melee with space or bumping?

Given the chaotic nature of the movement it's difficult to melee by bumping.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 26, 2012, 03:17:55 pm
(Prepending edit:)
Is it supposed to be that you can melee with space or bumping?

Given the chaotic nature of the movement it's difficult to melee by bumping.

Yes, if you equip the knife, you can melee with space, otherwise you can just bump enemies to knife them, regardless of the weapon you have equipped. I'm not sure how to handle it being hard to bump them accurately -- the real-time nature of the gameplay means you tend to run around them part of the time, especially if they just moved, since then you'll just move into the space they were previously occupying. From a developer's perspective, I feel this needs work. From a player's perspective, I'd suggest equipping the knife and actively holding space when you want to knife zombies up for now.



I haven't worked on the game yet this week, taking a break to do other things. I spent a day preparing and paying state and federal taxes, another day updating my resume and looking into temporary contract design work, and the rest of the week so far trying out the roguelike Cataclysm. I always find it disheartening to see another game do what I'm trying to do better than I've done it so far -- especially when it's a casual not-for-profit game. Which is to say that Cataclysm is great in some dimensions, and anyone excited about what I'm doing should try it out, if you haven't already.

Cataclysm captures a lot of good things in the post-apocalyptic survival genre. Scavenging in that game is extremely satisfying. The dual weight and volume limits work remarkably well to prevent packrat syndrome. Your strength determines how much weight you can carry without becoming encumbered, while your clothes determine how much volume you can carry, with your hands as a free slot that doesn't take up space. Wear cargo pants, a backpack, and a messenger bag to get copious carrying volume, but don't expect that to let you carry four heavy guns and still run quickly if you're too noodly to handle the weight. This forces you to focus on things that really matter, leaving behind guns, food, books, and craft supplies that aren't immediately useful to you, often returning to the same abandoned store multiple times as your needs change.

The clothing system is very impressive. It's flexible, realistic, and easy to understand. Each article of clothing covers a certain part of the body, and has an encumbrance value which reduces your performance using that part of the body. Wearing a backpack increases your torso encumbrance, while wearing steel-toed boots increases your feet encumbrance. Most items can be stacked freely, but stacking similar items adds additional encumbrance penalties (two pairs of pants worn simultaneously will encumber much more than the individual items would indicate -- an intuitive result for anyone who has layered up in cold weather). Some items, like shoes or a helmet, can't be stacked at all.

One of my favorite features is books. My sense in any post-apocalyptic scenario is that books become invaluable. After civilization collapses, the various skills and knowledge needed to carry on with daily life won't match up well with what the survivors have been practicing throughout their lives. A crazy survivalist may already know all about repairing radios, growing potatoes, and cleaning firearms, but a computer programmer probably won't know any of those things, and may not find anyone who does. Without power, the Internet's infrastructure of networked servers will vanish in a puff of smoke, and knowledge about how to maintain and reproduce the artifacts of civilization will be preserved only in books. Cataclysm contains libraries full of books. The novels are entertaining and improve your character's mood, but the real treasures are the non-fiction sections. From cookbooks to informative magazines to college textbooks, a large number of skills can be trained up by just reading the appropriate books. A lot of your skill gains won't come from practice, but from sitting down in libraries.

I don't love everything about it; Cataclysm is ASCII-based, and while that might not bother the majority of roguelike fans and people on this forum, my own hand-made graphics give my game a huge leg up on that count. Another thing that bugs me about Cataclysm is the scale. Streets are so gigantic that road stripes are twice the width of a person, and you can stand in the middle of a street and not see the buildings on either side. I mean, wow. I know why that happens -- Cataclysm's map architecture requires streets to be the same width as grocery stores, and he wanted stores to be big enough to have lots of shelves, but that explanation doesn't make it less strange. It's certainly something you can get used to after playing a few times, but I think the game would benefit noticeably from being scaled down by a factor of 2, so every 2x2 block becomes a single tile. This would also somewhat reduce the need for the game's most annoying feature, the kludgey Run/Safe mode, which freezes input when you see a monster. It's incredibly annoying, but is used to prevent you from getting instagibbed while holding down a move button to travel long distances.

Cataclysm is far from complete and new features are being added all the time, but I don't feel too threatened by it. Instead, I see its popularity, and some of its features, as an inspiration. I'm interested in other ideas people have about things one should be able to do in a post-apocalyptic survival game. What would you miss if I overlooked it? What would make a survival game feel awesome?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Aqizzar on January 26, 2012, 03:26:37 pm
Cataclysm is far from complete and new features are being added all the time, but I don't feel too threatened by it. Instead, I see its popularity, and some of its features, as an inspiration. I'm interested in other ideas people have about things one should be able to do in a post-apocalyptic survival game. What would you miss if I overlooked it? What would make a survival game feel awesome?

Y'know, it's ironic that I would hop into this thread just now.  I remember when you first posted about this game, I was certainly interested in it, but I stopped paying attention.  Meanwhile I've been playing Cataclysm a lot.

If anything, the great thing about games like this, "roguelikes" that are free to obtain (at least for now I guess) is that I don't find myself choosing one or the other.  Rather, playing any one gives an appetite for more that are like it.  The existence of Cataclysm is no threat to me wanting to play your game, it makes me want to play it and compare the differences.

And you some very good comments about Cataclysm's design, which should serve you well in making your own.  I'll be trying to keep up on this.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: jester on January 26, 2012, 06:51:34 pm
Id like to see alot longer term thinking than cataclysm, more base building and getting set up properly than the running about hoping to survive past day 3 that cataclysm is.  Stuff like scavenging/jury rigging a generator to do basic manufacturing/other stuff you need power for, say a freezer (waterpumps, well digging gear, a cow, 50 sheets of glass to make a hot house, cement mixers).  Snagging a forklift and armoring it up so you can then do a run to grab a metal lathe.  Seeing those big ticket items but really having to put work and planning into actually getting them back to the base rather than focusing on the small stuff like cataclysm, though ive gotta admit I have no idea how you add the survival part to the base building.

  Also adding the random character creation like LCS, Id like my team to be a combination of swat assault troops and crossbow toting survivalists, instead ive managed to drag a taxi driver, 2 crackheads, an 80 year old and a nicotine addicted circus monkey named pete out of the wreckage of society and will have to make the best of it
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Fniff on January 27, 2012, 01:48:06 pm
In my opinion, the two biggest problems with Cataclysm are these:

1. There are zombies EVERYWHERE. I know it's an apocalypse, but there should be an AI director style where sometimes you are given a chance at least. The Left 4 Dead style is annoying with hunger and boredom. I want a few quiet moments to contrast with the "FIRE FIRE THROW A MOLOTOV RUUUUUN!"
2. World seems flat. Nothing seems like it's looted if you didn't loot it already, there is no civvie corpses and there isn't even any fires. Even if there was an evacuation, there should be more signs of battle. I would be perfectly happy with just a few preset things, but it would be even cooler with randomly generated placements of corpses and barricades. Even the Alpha of this game at this point feels a bit more apocalyptic.

If you can fix these problems if you wanna take some notes from Cataclysm, that'd be great.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: mainiac on January 29, 2012, 02:30:08 am
This has probably been answered before but I've forgotten by now.  Will this game have LCS style management between raids?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 29, 2012, 09:33:20 pm
This has probably been answered before but I've forgotten by now.  Will this game have LCS style management between raids?

For awhile, that was the plan. Right now, I'm planning to make it a continuous single-character game, eventually adding recruiting other survivors after the initial release and moving toward more LCS-style features. I am planning to have some kind of management like that -- including an interface overlay, scrollable world map, some resource management -- but raids may just be implicit when you decide to leave the safehouse with other survivors in tow, not a once-per-day change in game mode. My thoughts in this area have changed over time, so these things may change when the game is further along.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: mainiac on January 30, 2012, 10:51:45 pm
I think the once-a-day raids should be in.  With zombie games it's very important to have a sense of climax and downtime.  That would work very well if every raid is it's own unique entity. You move into the zombie infested area and things are low key at much, the zombies are thinly spread and not very alert.  But as you move towards your objective more zombies arrive and they become more aggressive.  You get/do what you came for and then it's time to escape as the hordes arrive and overwhelm the location.  Once your escape is complete you return to your hideout to lick your wounds and decide where to go next.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 31, 2012, 12:02:58 am
I think the once-a-day raids should be in.  With zombie games it's very important to have a sense of climax and downtime.  That would work very well if every raid is it's own unique entity. You move into the zombie infested area and things are low key at much, the zombies are thinly spread and not very alert.  But as you move towards your objective more zombies arrive and they become more aggressive.  You get/do what you came for and then it's time to escape as the hordes arrive and overwhelm the location.  Once your escape is complete you return to your hideout to lick your wounds and decide where to go next.

I agree insofar as that's a really cool design and would work very well. I can see a much more LCS-loyal design than what I ended up waffling toward that uses a tile-based overmap and dispatches to local maps. The strategic game would be a hybrid between LCS and Rebuild, and the "massive conservative response" would be replaced by packs of zombies shuffling into the area in response to gunshots.

The decision to move toward a roguelike design rather than doing this was a direct result of deciding to focus on making the core combat as interesting as possible and set the grander strategic aspects aside for later. That really shunted a lot of LCS features off the immediate design table, replacing them with sandbox stuff. I think that if I were to approach this project again from scratch, with the same goals I had from the beginning, I would be far less ambitious about the combat system, and aim to make fights just a dramatized version of what LCS does. It would save me a lot of time and end up with a very different game than what my choice to use a more action-based combat system led me toward.

Ultimately, although I'm not doing this, I think it's a good idea. It's just that I can only do one thing at a time, and I think I need to push ahead with the current concept -- which has its own merits -- before going back to the drawing board. If I do get done with this project and decide it didn't achieve my initially established goals of creating a game that captures the gameplay of LCS, I won't rule out approaching the subject again, with or without this theme.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: MaximumZero on January 31, 2012, 12:49:27 am
And now I'm wondering why I just came upon this. Awesome work, as always, Fox!
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 31, 2012, 04:02:09 am
And now I'm wondering why I just came upon this. Awesome work, as always, Fox!

Thank you!

Also, while I haven't yet gone through and really thought through the suggestions in depth yet, I want to add a thank you to Aqizzar, jester, and Fniff, for your responses about Cataclysm and what you'd like to see in a game like this. I really value your input, and I don't want my lack of response to come across as not caring. I've just been distracted by other things recently (consulting job interview + personal relationship stuff + upcoming LCS release), and I want to revisit your posts when I'm able to give 100% focus to this game.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Flying Dice on January 31, 2012, 10:16:59 am
I am also rather shocked to have just now noticed this thread. This project is looking rather good, and I'm looking forward to a stable release!  :)


Regarding Cataclysm and this: In many ways, it isn't even a >zombie< game, more of a game which happens to have zombies in it. As other people have said, you should probably steer more towards a paced, cyclical feel to attacks, rather than the somewhat over-the-top constant, frantic action that is most of Cataclysm.


((Unrelated to this, but related to some of the comments: it is perfectly possible to last for weeks in Cataclysm, provided you put most of your effort into surviving while you set up 3 or 4 rings of spike pits around your shelter, and keep your main supply stash at least 1/4 of a map block away from your sleeping shelter, to protect against lightning strikes. Yeah, if you just rush about a city shooting off guns, you will die very quickly.))
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Fniff on January 31, 2012, 08:12:01 pm
Instead of idle speculation, I decided to knuckle down and make some more short-term, probably not great ideas.

I decided to turn off my flashlight and see how long it took me to get noticed. I wouldn't mind this becoming an actual mechanic, since it combines both stealth and the utter fear that these undead just standing around will rip you apart if you make the slightest move in the wrong direction. However, unless they are previously alerted to your presence, they just stand around. Even if you get really close and attack them. They just consider you non-existent without the flashlight. So, there is no disadvantage to sneaking about without the flashlight. Here is a few ideas I had on this.

When the flashlight is off, your view should be more limited, even out on the street. Like, 4x4 (You can add more or less) with the player in the center without the flashlight.

Zombies react to sound by investigating the noise. This could mean a door opening, a window breaking, etc. If they find a fellow zombie, then they ignore it. If they find you with the flashlight on, it tries to kill you. If you didn't have your flashlight on, they go closer. If the player doesn't go away, then the zombie will sniff you out and try to kill you, along with all the other zombies in the area.

If you get too close to an undead, they'll peg you aren't a zombie and kill you. If you escape the area, they will try to hunt you down for a while, then forget about you and wander off. If you come back, they notice you. Yeah, it is kinda meant to be like Amnesia.

Just a few additions to make sure that a certain way of playing isn't foolproof.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: mainiac on February 14, 2012, 07:50:51 pm
Bump?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on February 14, 2012, 07:56:03 pm
Shhhhh, he's working :P
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on February 15, 2012, 08:39:22 pm
Pressed pause to work on another side project -- a boss rush shmup. Making games as a job is nice, but I don't have the starting capital to work on an extended project without pausing to actually make money part way through. ;)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Fniff on February 27, 2012, 06:55:07 pm
How is this going right now? Might be a bit early, but patience... smaytience?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on February 27, 2012, 07:56:34 pm
How is this going right now? Might be a bit early, but patience... smaytience?

I think it's coming along well, but the later stages involve a lot of polishing and revising, so it's hard to say what the timeline will look like. I'll post when we have some stuff we're ready to show off. :)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Fniff on February 27, 2012, 07:58:12 pm
How is this going right now? Might be a bit early, but patience... smaytience?

I think it's coming along well, but the later stages involve a lot of polishing and revising, so it's hard to say what the timeline will look like. I'll post when we have some stuff we're ready to show off. :)

What do you think of my idea for stealthing around the undead?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: nenjin on February 27, 2012, 07:58:18 pm
Did I miss something some pages back, or did you pick up some helpers to get you through your Zombie Coding Apocalypse?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on February 27, 2012, 09:21:09 pm
How is this going right now? Might be a bit early, but patience... smaytience?

I think it's coming along well, but the later stages involve a lot of polishing and revising, so it's hard to say what the timeline will look like. I'll post when we have some stuff we're ready to show off. :)

What do you think of my idea for stealthing around the undead?

Emphasizing that this isn't related to the side project I'm currently working on (which is what I was writing about a moment ago), I agree entirely that your suggestion makes sense. In fact, it was previously working in the zombie game, and broke at some point in more recent versions. Zombies are supposed to track by scent, not just sight, and stealth felt pretty good for awhile, not absurdly perfect like it is now.

Did I miss something some pages back, or did you pick up some helpers to get you through your Zombie Coding Apocalypse?

I should have been more clear -- I was talking about a side project space shooter I'm working on with another independent developer; the zombie apocalypse is still on hold for a bit while we get this project done and out the door, since it represents more short-term income. People who make games as a hobby get sidetracked by "life" and "work" getting in the way; since this is my day job, I got sidetracked by working on a smaller project to keep the money flowing instead. The zombie apocalypse should come back into focus afterward, and is still a solo project, at least right now. I'll post updates here when I start working on the zombie game again.

I'll post some cool stuff about the space shooter here too, for those interested, once the game is near release, but we're keeping the development details a little more under wraps while we build the game. It has procedural boss fights and an unusual mechanic for how your attacks work; gameplay is more challenging than just "dodge bullets and fly below the enemy".
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Ehndras on March 20, 2012, 03:29:42 am
I'd be quite interested in hearing more about this space combat game once you've made some tangible progress.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: fred1248 on August 06, 2012, 09:02:42 am
I'm terribly sorry for necro-ing an old post, but is this still under development?
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on August 07, 2012, 06:39:39 pm
Well, the side project space game turned into a major endeavor that is only now nearing completion, so I can't say I've made any progress on bringing about the zombocalypse here, but it is something I still intend to do. I still intend to make weekly updates once I'm back on the job.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Fniff on August 07, 2012, 07:52:19 pm
That's awesome! I hope your space game is fun developing! Remember to post a link.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: MaximumZero on August 07, 2012, 07:55:39 pm
Indeed. I'd love to see your work, Fox.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Ehndras on August 08, 2012, 01:25:26 pm
Do it! The community supports you :-)
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Rexfelum on August 08, 2012, 09:06:48 pm
And I'll just toss in a "wow, yeah, I love seeing this stuff happen" for the pile.  Either the zombie or space pile.

--Rexfelum
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on August 10, 2012, 03:48:56 pm

The game I'm working on is a boss rush shmup (space shooter), where your attacks are powered by absorbing the boss's attacks and then releasing the very same weapons back on them. See a crazy cool weapon unleashed on you? Fly near to it with your absorb field up, charge up your batteries, then fire -- and the exact same weapon will be returned on the enemy. There are no small enemies, just boss fight after boss fight. We'll have a bunch of pre-made enemies, plus a fully featured editor (the same one we used) that lets you construct bosses out of ship parts, repaint them, rename them, change the weapons armed on it, the order they fire, how quickly they fire in sequence, and so on. We have many weapons to pick from and fight against, and some of them are very impressive, both in deadliness and beauty.

I'm working on it with Nathan McCoy (http://nmccoy.net/), who made the original game that this one is based on. We're both designing, programming, and arting; in these screens, I made the ship art, while he made the bullets, UI, and special effects. We're contracting out the music to John Axon (http://soundcloud.com/john-axon/), a musician Nathan has worked with before.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Rexfelum on August 10, 2012, 08:44:14 pm
Well that's cool.  There've been various "absorb enemy shots" implementations before, so how exactly do your mechanics work?  Are you invulnerable while charging, then vulnerable when you fire back?  Can you "overcharge"?  Can you get conflicting charges of different weapons?

--Rexfelum
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on August 11, 2012, 02:03:58 am
(Star Grazer questions answered)

Well that's cool.  There've been various "absorb enemy shots" implementations before, so how exactly do your mechanics work?  Are you invulnerable while charging, then vulnerable when you fire back?

You are always vulnerable, even when absorbing enemy shots. You extend a field around your ship to capture enemy attacks, but the individual bullets aren't absorbed when they enter the field -- they're absorbed when they leave it. Shots that enter the field and hit you will kill you. The field doesn't protect you at all, it rewards you for playing dangerously. And we keep the penalty for dying pretty light.

Can you get conflicting charges of different weapons?

Some weapons are compatible with one another, others aren't. It depends on the type of bullet they use. Two guns that act different but both shoot spinning purple footballs are compatible, while a giant laser cannon and a rocket launcher are not. We make it very obvious in game what is compatible with what -- it's color coded, sound coded, shape coded, the bullets even move differently depending on their type. When you're absorbing different attacks that are compatible, you'll fire the entire batch as the last type you absorbed. If you absorb incompatible bullet types, your old charge will be flushed out instantly, and you'll be back to square one.

You can't just ignore incompatible bullets and have them not be absorbed, and you can't drop the absorb field without using the charge you've built up so far to fire. We do this intentionally to force you to be careful and choose between firing prematurely, or risk trying to navigate through an incompatible attack pattern without absorbing anything.

Can you "overcharge"?

Yes. Each bullet type has a unique overcharge attack, more powerful than anything the bosses can throw at you, usable only if you max out your charge with that type.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Rexfelum on August 11, 2012, 09:16:59 pm
You are always vulnerable, even when absorbing enemy shots. You extend a field around your ship to capture enemy attacks, but the individual bullets aren't absorbed when they enter the field -- they're absorbed when they leave it. Shots that enter the field and hit you will kill you. The field doesn't protect you at all, it rewards you for playing dangerously. And we keep the penalty for dying pretty light.

. . . And now we know why you call it "Grazer."

Some weapons are compatible with one another, others aren't. It depends on the type of bullet they use. Two guns that act different but both shoot spinning purple footballs are compatible, while a giant laser cannon and a rocket launcher are not.

So let me see if I have this.  Say you're in the third screen shot, slurping up one side of the cyan double helix.  However much you get, even if it's just "one helix," can then be launched straight back as a double helix.  Yes?  So the player might hang out to the side of the attack pattern for, say, three boss attacks, then smash the boss with more gunpower than the boss has in the first place.

In other words, how long until us gamers can do that?

--Rexfelum
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on August 13, 2012, 06:29:42 pm
So let me see if I have this.  Say you're in the third screen shot, slurping up one side of the cyan double helix.  However much you get, even if it's just "one helix," can then be launched straight back as a double helix.  Yes?  So the player might hang out to the side of the attack pattern for, say, three boss attacks, then smash the boss with more gunpower than the boss has in the first place.

In other words, how long until us gamers can do that?

That's exactly right.

The time until release is probably still a couple of months -- although Star Grazer is nearly finished, we have some additional beta testing to do, then a fairly lengthy publication process. Once it's released, it will be free.

You can see a bit of the game in action in this instructional video on how to use the in-game editor:
http://youtu.be/xzWE9RUIFS8
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: MaximumZero on August 19, 2012, 01:07:49 am
That looks fucking awesome.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Strife26 on January 07, 2013, 08:39:05 am
Anything happening? Seems like your blog's a bit dead at the moment.
Title: Re: The Zombocalypse Is Coming
Post by: Jonathan S. Fox on January 07, 2013, 05:52:12 pm
Yeah, actually, I guess there is news.

We have a sponsorship deal with MoFunZone.com for Star Glaive (the new name for Star Grazer) and are in the process of rolling the game out. You can play it on the sponsor's site here:

http://www.mofunzone.com/online_games/star_glaive.shtml

It's not up on the big sites like Newgrounds and Kongregate yet, but it should be within a few days. We made a different build for public distribution that doesn't have achievements and tries to lure players into visiting the sponsor's site, but we're awaiting the final approval before uploading it.