Post by: lordnincompoop on March 19, 2011, 03:40:18 am
Welcome to Beginner's Mafia XXII!
(Thanks to Argembarger for the OP template!)
(Thanks to Argembarger for the OP template!)
This version of the game is aimed specifically at players who are new to the game, are still relatively inexperienced. Here, it's more about having fun and learning than anything else, so don't give up hope if you find yourself in a bad position!
This Beginners' Mafia will feature playing ICs. This means that two more experienced people will join in the game to help you guys out and will actually be playing in the game. They can also be scum too, so always stay suspicious!
The ICs will never lie to you about the game mechanics though, and will usually have a special IC voice to use when they want to teach you guys, since their goal will be to get you guys ready for a real Mafia game. Just because they're playing doesn't mean you can't learn!
In Mafia, you are divided into two parts: 7 Town players and 2 Mafia players:
If you are Town, your goal is to lynch the Mafia. You do this by convincing others that one of the group is scum, and getting enough votes on them to lynch them. The Town does not know who else is Town.
If you are Mafia, your goal is to kill off the Town until there is an equal number of them to you by getting them to lynch other Town or by killing them. You are given a kill each Night to kill any player in the game. All the Mafia members know each other, and can communicate privately.
Each Day, everyone votes to lynch a player. Vote for a player by posting their name in red. You may change your vote at any time, remove your vote, or vote for No Lynch. Whoever has the most votes at the end of the day gets lynched, even if there is no majority. (Example: Nobody votes except for one guy, who votes Generic_Steve. Generic_Steve would get lynched). If you have a great deal of suspicion for someone, but don't want to vote for them just yet, point their name out in blue.
The Day will not end prematurely unless people vote to shorten the day. That is, there is no "hammer" in Beginner's Mafia, where X amount of votes (more than 50%) on a single person immediately ends the day with a lynch on that person. Some games do that, but not this one, and you would be explicitly informed in the rules if the hammer is active.
If there are tied votes for who gets lynched at the end of the day, the day ends in a no-lynch. (Two people vote for Generic_Steve, two people vote for Unassuming_Mary. Nobody gets lynched.)
Each Night, you send in your actions. The cycle continues until one side wins. Days are 72 hours and nights are 24 hours. Weekends count for zero hours.
Game rules & guidelines:
- You may not PM other players other than the mod. The mafia will have a place to talk to themselves.
- Never edit your posts, even to fix typos! If you make a mistake, just double post- it's permitted here. Violation of this rule can lead to deadly repercussions. I recommend using the preview button every time you post.
- Never quote your role PM or any other PM sent to you by the mod.
- If you need more time to discuss, you may ask for an extension. If more players ask for one than those who decline one, the day will be extended by 48 hours.
- There are no limit to the number of extensions allowed per day.
- Please don't forget about this game if you sign up! If you cannot continue playing, please ask for a replacement! I will prod you via PM if you do not post in 48 hours to remind you that this game exists!
- Note that a Mafia game usually takes a long time to finish: two weeks at least, and sometimes even longer than a month. Be ready for this.
- Upon receiving your second prod, you are forcibly replaced (Another player takes your place) or modkilled (removed from the game) for inactivity. Beware.
- Upon being killed, you are entitled to one "Bah!" post, but you are not allowed to post any game-related content. After your Bah post, you MUST NOT POST AGAIN unless you somehow come back to life (impossible in this setup) or replace back in (you must have been town to do this). Failure to comply with this rule can lead to a bad reputation amongst mods, and difficulty in joining other games.
- Never underestimate your importance, and always play to win!
In this setup, there are the possibility of extra roles. These roles are Cop and Doctor for Town, and Roleblocker and Godfather for Mafia.
- A Cop inspects any player at Night. They are told that player's alignment, but not their role.
- A Doctor may protect any player at Night. This stops that player from being killed.
- A Roleblocker stops an extra role from using an action. This stops Doctors and Cops but does nothing for Townies.
- Roleblockers do not actually discover if their attempts were successful or not; that would be too powerful because the roleblocker would know they found a town power role. It isn't an investigative role (the same goes for the Doctor)! The Mafia needs to find the town power roles the old-fashioned way: analyzing behavior and voting patterns.
- Townies do not receive a message if they were blocked by a Mafia Roleblocker. Only a Cop or a Doctor will receive a message.
- A Godfather, if investigated by a Cop, looks just like a normal Townie.
There is a 50% chance for any of these roles to show up. It is possible to end up with no extra roles.
Extensions require support from at least one of the players. You may oppose extensions as well, which cancels out an extension request. For example, if there were five players, with two requesting and two opposing, there would be no extension. (2-2 = 0 of 5)
Along with opposing extensions, there is also the option to Shorten/End the Day. They work differently from extensions, 33% required to pass with no objections. Shortening the Day ends the Day makes the day end as quickly as I can process it. Due to the nature of these requests, they also act just like Counter-Extensions.
Please bold requests/opposition to extensions, and Mod/my name if you want to ask me a question in-thread. (IE: Mod: I have a question!)
Players:
ICs:
webadict, Secret Agent (Mafia)
Player Replacement Queue:
Frequently Asked Questions:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Resources:
Our own Bay12 Mafia tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0)
The Notable Games archive. Read a famous game from start to finish! Learn some Mafia history. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=64229.0)
The Mafiascum wiki. Lots of theory, terminology, and game analysis. (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
An Interactive Flash tutorial by one of the Mafiascum.net people. Helpful visualization! (http://cataldo.freeshell.org/mafia/mafiascum04.swf)
Spoiler: Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible, reposted here for your convenience (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: A List of Common Scumtells (click to show/hide)
If you're still confused, join anyhow and we'll teach you!
And if you have any other questions, just ask!
Post by: Vector on March 19, 2011, 03:43:16 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 19, 2011, 03:46:31 am
Happy now? :P
Post by: Supercharazad on March 19, 2011, 03:51:48 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 19, 2011, 03:52:56 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 19, 2011, 03:53:35 am
Players leaving midgame and needing a replacement is annoyingly common.
Post by: Heliman on March 19, 2011, 01:49:23 pm
Post by: Supercharazad on March 19, 2011, 05:23:07 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on March 19, 2011, 06:02:03 pm
Post by: breadbocks on March 19, 2011, 06:07:31 pm
Paying special attention to these:
Quote from: do's
Never underestimate your importance, and always play to win!and
Quote from: don'ts
Resigning yourself to being lynched.
Saying something like "there's no way for me to avoid being lynched so I won't bother trying"
Voting yourself for any reason.QuoteGuilty of breaking all of them. :C
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 20, 2011, 10:43:53 am
Post by: webadict on March 20, 2011, 10:46:40 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 20, 2011, 10:56:36 am
You can definitely join as a normal player though.
Post by: Ottofar on March 20, 2011, 12:33:04 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 20, 2011, 02:00:09 pm
Post by: breadbocks on March 20, 2011, 03:46:59 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 20, 2011, 03:49:51 pm
TKoE has 27 posts across the entire boards. 19 or so of them are in one thread in OG, 7 are in the dfm forum, and one is here.
How is this relevant?
Post by: breadbocks on March 20, 2011, 03:53:55 pm
Just pointing out that he would probably be a bad IC. Just a guess, though.TKoE has 27 posts across the entire boards. 19 or so of them are in one thread in OG, 7 are in the dfm forum, and one is here.
How is this relevant?
Post by: Ottofar on March 20, 2011, 03:55:30 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 20, 2011, 03:56:47 pm
It wouldn't matter if he'd played on MafiaScum or somesuch. Here, we're much more aggressive.
Are we?
Post by: Ottofar on March 20, 2011, 04:00:45 pm
Because they lynch you if you're aggressive.
Post by: Vector on March 20, 2011, 04:02:36 pm
In any case, panicking is always a scumtell, whether it shows aggressively or calmly.
Post by: Jack A T on March 20, 2011, 04:03:08 pm
Post by: Vector on March 20, 2011, 04:08:02 pm
Yeah, there are huge differences between Bay 12 mafia and mafia at many other places. I recommend reading through Supernatural 3, when it comes to that.
When I was playing at xkcd, folks actually asked me if I was from Mafiascum >_>
Over there (on the xkcd boards), the first stage is always to speculate about flavor and game mechanics/strategies, rather than asking each other questions. It's kind of interesting, because they end up playing a lot of themed setups and pretty much nothing that was ever vanilla-vanilla. Even their beginner's games would have things like millers.
I managed to peg the scum after their first post on the first day of the game, but I seem to have pissed a lot of people off in the process. Frankly, I really prefer our behavior-heavy analysis to their methodologies. It helps, though, that none of them seem to have any idea about how to play scum.
Post by: Heliman on March 20, 2011, 05:31:57 pm
BTW vector I'd totally like to look at that XKCD mafia game, if you still have a link.
Post by: Vector on March 20, 2011, 05:52:01 pm
I had to quit partway through, but man... I had that thing pegged.
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 20, 2011, 06:41:48 pm
Yeah, there are huge differences between Bay 12 mafia and mafia at many other places. I recommend reading through Supernatural 3, when it comes to that.
When I was playing at xkcd, folks actually asked me if I was from Mafiascum >_>
Over there (on the xkcd boards), the first stage is always to speculate about flavor and game mechanics/strategies, rather than asking each other questions. It's kind of interesting, because they end up playing a lot of themed setups and pretty much nothing that was ever vanilla-vanilla. Even their beginner's games would have things like millers.
I managed to peg the scum after their first post on the first day of the game, but I seem to have pissed a lot of people off in the process. Frankly, I really prefer our behavior-heavy analysis to their methodologies. It helps, though, that none of them seem to have any idea about how to play scum.
Did we end up like this for any particular reason?
What were the xkcd methods, then?
Thanks for the link, it'll be interesting to see how they do it there. Maybe I'll play a game there too.
Post by: Vector on March 20, 2011, 06:50:54 pm
XKCD... I never played long enough over there to really understand them, but as I said, it was mostly about the immediate speculation and "Okay, how are we all going to as a group decide to manage this situation." I think we're more individualistic over here. They also don't employ an RVS of any sort. Ever.
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 20, 2011, 06:59:09 pm
Anyone want the IC position, by the way?
Post by: Toaster on March 20, 2011, 07:25:30 pm
Post by: breadbocks on March 20, 2011, 07:43:28 pm
Post by: Vector on March 20, 2011, 09:20:20 pm
I'd bet money the cause of the way we came out and XKCD came out differed because of the people.
Probably. On the other hand, I feel like we also have a far more close-knit community here outside of games. I definitely have closer relationships here than that board seemed to.
The other interesting thing is that it seems like people almost never respond to each other on that board, while over here we happily derail everything to discuss this or that aspect of whatever someone said.
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 20, 2011, 10:39:10 pm
Post by: Vector on March 20, 2011, 10:45:31 pm
Resplect(dot)justforum(dot)net. Same username. Modded one game played several. Happy to show more if that's not enough.
I took a look and it seems that the style is rather different. That's not necessarily bad, but I just want to make sure that you're not going to be getting in over your head.
Might I ask if you've read through any of the games here?
Post by: Toaster on March 20, 2011, 10:58:04 pm
I'll check some of those games tomorrow.
Post by: Heliman on March 20, 2011, 11:07:28 pm
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 20, 2011, 11:34:03 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 21, 2011, 12:04:49 am
Or wait for the next round of non-beginner's games to show your stuff.
Since I don't know anything about you I'd prefer to see you in action before I'm comfortable teaching a group of new players alongside you. I don't mean any disrespect, but I hope you understand where I'm coming from here.
Post by: Vector on March 21, 2011, 12:09:23 am
Really people. If it is that much of an issue then don't worry about it :/. I can't justify joining as a beginner though.
To be fair, a lot of people join beginner's games on their first time here, or if they simply haven't played for 5-ish months. It's not just a marker of experience with the game in general, but also with the site in general.
There are games where one player completely creams the others, and we can live with that.
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 21, 2011, 12:21:09 am
I've really only played IRC Mafia before, and that was a long time ago anyway.
Post by: Heliman on March 21, 2011, 01:47:33 am
Post by: breadbocks on March 21, 2011, 01:49:19 am
Also, player count is off. It should be 5/9.
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 21, 2011, 03:03:48 am
Crown too? Now it's a party!I wasn't aware that I cause parties to spontaneously occur, but okay then!
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 21, 2011, 05:20:12 am
in
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 21, 2011, 06:34:36 am
Only one more to go.
Post by: Toaster on March 21, 2011, 09:01:06 am
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 21, 2011, 04:47:56 pm
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 21, 2011, 05:04:16 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on March 21, 2011, 05:27:00 pm
Post by: Vector on March 21, 2011, 07:01:26 pm
Eh, I should play mafia again. In.
Ooh, good to see you again!
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 21, 2011, 08:50:20 pm
It begins....
... or not?
Post by: Bdthemag on March 21, 2011, 09:02:56 pm
It begins....whenever LNP starts it to be exact....It begins....
... or not?
Post by: Supercharazad on March 22, 2011, 12:04:12 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 22, 2011, 03:43:33 pm
Post by: breadbocks on March 22, 2011, 04:07:46 pm
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 22, 2011, 06:34:46 pm
..........…
*waits patiently*
Post by: breadbocks on March 22, 2011, 07:05:19 pm
TKoE, you seem oddly eager to get this going. What makes you so edgy? Why do you want this day over so badly? Do you, say, have a good player you want gone?
Post by: Heliman on March 22, 2011, 07:12:48 pm
LNC, you seem to be promising and not delivering. Put up or we'll string you up.
Promising information and never providing, Toaster's classic scumtell. Vote lordnincompoop.
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 22, 2011, 07:42:35 pm
lordnincompoop
Also,
I'm known?! From where, may I ask?Eh, I should play mafia again. In.
Ooh, good to see you again!
Post by: Heliman on March 23, 2011, 01:32:38 am
If you're all like:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
She will be all like:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on March 23, 2011, 01:42:46 am
I'm known?! From where, may I ask?
We played some games together, of course! A couple of BMs and Josh's Weirdo Mafia <3 I think we were in BMIV, probably BMII and BMIII as well~
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 23, 2011, 02:14:02 am
We were both in BM's 2 and 3, as well as weirdo mafia. Maybe that vote mafia I was in too.
Vector is memory ninja!
Post by: Vector on March 23, 2011, 02:31:14 am
I checked and you're startlingly accurate!
We were both in BM's 2 and 3, as well as weirdo mafia. Maybe that vote mafia I was in too.
Vector is memory ninja!
Hohoho, but of course! I have to remember everyone, so that when you're scum I'll know what to look for <3
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 23, 2011, 04:54:42 am
I checked and you're startlingly accurate!
We were both in BM's 2 and 3, as well as weirdo mafia. Maybe that vote mafia I was in too.
Vector is memory ninja!
Hohoho, but of course! I have to remember everyone, so that when you're scum I'll know what to look for <3
;D Yay
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 24, 2011, 12:46:31 am
(Woo, blatant bandwagon!)
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 24, 2011, 08:05:18 pm
Day 1 Has Begun!
Votecount:
Heliman - 0 -
Supercharazard - 0 -
Bdthemag - 0 -
Breadbocks - 0 -
CrownofFire - 0 -
The King of Eggs - 0 -
major_sephiroth - 0 -
Jim Groovester - 0 -
Toaster - 0 -
Not Voting - 0 -
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 0 -
Shorten - 0 -
You cough the water out of your lungs as you open your eyes and rise from the beach.
Your clothes are ragged, your body aches and the sun feels scorching on your back. You’ve no memory of what happened before, and how you got here. The last thing you remember is being at home, and a knock on the door, and then… You feel a cold shiver come down your spine. It seems whatever happened that brought you here doesn’t want to be remembered.
As you rise up on your feet and take a look around you, you feel a glimmer of hope as you see eight other people wash up on the glimmering white sand banks. It’ll be a while until they rise. Just a bit further in-land you see a circle of moss-covered stones – perfect to spend the night – and some forest.
Wait, perhaps – you spin around and fall with a thud to look toward the horizon, but no. Nothing. There’s no sign of what brought you here, and the plane – was it a plane? – has probably sunk into the ocean by now. You’ll have to find your own way out.
The others have all woken up now, and are gathering up to discuss what happened. Someone suggests they sit down at the circle. You all move there, but when you do so you spot something half-buried in the sand – a board, along with a pencil, engraved with the following words:
This is a prison.
There are two of your captors amongst you.
They hold the key to freedom.
Hunt and kill them.
Almost immediately, wild arguments erupt.
It has begun, then.
The Day will end Tuesday, 7PM GMT.
You need 3 to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 24, 2011, 08:13:47 pm
I will be a completely impartial source of advice that I will freely give at every opportunity, whether I am asked for it or I decide to give it on my own. You can trust that everything I have to say will be given in good faith, even if it comes at a personal cost to me in this game. If you do not listen to what I have to say, for any reason, you will severely hamper your ability to learn how to play the game. So, to reiterate,
Listen to what I tell you.
If you don't, then what's the point of me being here?
For those of you who don't know what to do, games usually start with the Random Vote Stage. You should pick a target randomly, vote them, and ask them a question. The sole purpose of this is to get conversation going when there would otherwise be no reason to do that. I'll start.
Bdthemag, I've never seen you around here before, so answer me a question. As a cop, how would you determine who to inspect at night?
Ideally you should ask game related questions in the RVS. Asking what kind of flavor of ice cream is a player's favorite does absolutely nothing to help you find scum, which is your primary goal.
And because it bears repeating: Your primary goal is to find scum. Everything you do should help you towards that goal. And I do mean everything.
If you're scum, you will obviously have a different goal: Avoid detection until the end of the game. The best way to do this is to look like you are trying to find scum.
Since many of you are going to have no idea what to do and will mangle scumhunting in just about every possible way, it does you no good to hold back. So be bold, and just do the best you can. Ask lots of questions, try to get a good feel for how the game is played. I'll be there to help you when you go wrong.
And yes, I did just copy this word for word from my opening post in BMXXI (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=77394.msg1986238#msg1986238), because I think it's still good and applicable.
Post by: Bdthemag on March 24, 2011, 08:40:15 pm
Supercharazard: Who do you think would be the most dangerous as scum in this game?
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 24, 2011, 08:49:44 pm
An answer by itself usually isn't enough. You want to tell everybody why. This reveals your thought process, which is what people want from you, and if you're town, is what you want to communicate to everybody. If you are aggressive and interested and active in finding scum, and your answers reflect this, then you will be considered town.
Unfortunately it won't be immediately apparent what sort of thoughts are supposed to be in your head to make you aggressive and interested and active in finding scum. That comes with experience. Just be bold.
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 24, 2011, 08:51:19 pm
CrownofFire, (And anyone else who feels like answering), What do you think is the most dangerous power role for mafia to have?
Post by: Heliman on March 24, 2011, 08:58:10 pm
Breadbocks, Out of all the new players here, who do you think would make the worst scum?
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 24, 2011, 09:56:24 pm
Let's get these random votes a-movin'Most dangerous? Now, that all depends on what power roles the Town has. Assuming that we have at least a Cop, then it'd be a Godfather, most definitely. A Roleblocker only works on a lucky guess, and a Godfather works regardless of who the Cop is, and even lends to their credibility as "Town".
CrownofFire, (And anyone else who feels like answering), What do you think is the most dangerous power role for mafia to have?
Now that that's out of the way, The King of Eggs. As my designated random-vote (and you haven't posted yet), answer me this: If you were scum, and you could choose ANY player new or old currently in this game, who would you choose to be your Scum buddy?
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 24, 2011, 10:53:24 pm
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 24, 2011, 10:56:36 pm
Well CrownofFire (Yes, OMGURS) as for my prefferd Scum buddy, I would, from this pool of humanity, choose a scapegoat actually.So in other words, you would choose somebody that you could easily bus?
Post by: Toaster on March 24, 2011, 11:19:52 pm
Jim pretty much stole my intro post, so let me just heartily endorse everything he said.
I'll add that when asking questions and reading the answers, you should not only look at the answer but how the person answered. Did they get snippy over a simple question? Are they covering for something? Did they dither around and not give a straight answer? More experienced players have learned not to give bad answers to questions- you need to look for questions being answered in a bad way. Look at the motivations behind people's posts: see if you can find people trying to mislead you or steer you to a certain conclusion.
That said, let's get going!
[And brackets are me explaining my actions in IC mode. Yes, I copy pasted this from last game.]
[One thing I'd like to add is that you should maintain a small degree of paranoia. If someone says or does something that doesn't make sense to you, ask them about it! It is always acceptable (and good!) to question someone's motivations. That is a good way to catch scum- identify deviations from expected behavior.]
[Generally, we start games here by picking someone, voting them, and asking them a question. You don't have to do it, but it's customary. This serves as a starting point to discussion.]
major_sephiroth: What do you hope to get out of this game? If you could pick one of the four possible power roles (Cop, Doctor, Godfather, or Roleblocker), which would you pick? Why?
[One thing to remember is that if you are asked a question, you should always explain why your answer is so- assume that the asker put a "Why?" at the end of the question like I did above.]
King of Eggs: You've said you're experienced from elsewhere. Can you give a brief summary of the style of play from your experience?
[This is mostly so I can read him better, as all RVS questions should be.]
If you have any questions for us ICs, ask away.
Finally, an apology in advance- my activity tomorrow will probably be low. I have many things going on RL.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 24, 2011, 11:57:03 pm
Well CrownofFire (Yes, OMGURS) as for my prefferd Scum buddy, I would, from this pool of humanity, choose a scapegoat actually.
Don't you have a question you want to ask CrownofFire?
That would be good.
Post by: Heliman on March 25, 2011, 12:21:45 am
And why is that?While I'm still awake, a big FoS on Jim Groovester for the bolded text in this quote. Groovester's tone in that sentence sounds as if he's speaking from the point of view of a scum, rather than an "impartial source of advice." This is especially odd considering the stressed neutrality of his words in his previous sentence.
An answer by itself usually isn't enough. You want to tell everybody why. This reveals your thought process, which is what people want from you, and if you're town, is what you want to communicate to everybody. If you are aggressive and interested and active in finding scum, and your answers reflect this, then you will be considered town.
Unfortunately it won't be immediately apparent what sort of thoughts are supposed to be in your head to make you aggressive and interested and active in finding scum. That comes with experience. Just be bold.
I'm not saying that it isn't Pro Town, but it sounds off.
Post by: Heliman on March 25, 2011, 12:23:22 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 25, 2011, 02:03:00 am
Very well. I shall step aside. Heliman will be your IC because he clearly knows all there is to know about the game of mafia.
You've missed the whole point of my opening post, which is that you shouldn't doubt the impartiality of my advice. I'm going to give it to you even if it works against me, because, for me, the purpose of the game isn't to win but to teach all of you. I will never give advice in bad faith. Is that clear? You need to answer this, because if you don't, I am going to have a very difficult time teaching you and you are going to have a very difficult time learning.
Now, about the point you brought up: it actually is good advice. If you are town, you don't want to waste everyone's time by making yourself a suspect. You have better things to do. But how do you not make yourself a suspect? By being active and aggressive and interested in finding scum. Isn't it amazing how the same things that help you find scum are the same things that make you look town?
I'm going to commend you for your instincts. You saw something odd, and you brought it up. You were wrong, but that's besides the point. You did exactly the sort of thing I want to see out of a new player. So keep asking questions anytime you see something odd.
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 25, 2011, 02:07:33 am
major_sephiroth: What do you hope to get out of this game? If you could pick one of the four possible power roles (Cop, Doctor, Godfather, or Roleblocker), which would you pick? Why?Well, I'd want to be a Cop, as my scumhunting skills are lacking. It'd help the town - assuming I could convince the town of my results. Godfather is a close second, due to it being a goldmine of WIFOM.
More random votes.
Breadbocks, if you were a doctor, who would you protect?
And some questions for people:
Supercharazard, what do you think of lurking as a strategy?
Bdthemag, who would you want to be scum in this game?
Heliman, what do you think is the biggest scumtell in mafia?
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 25, 2011, 02:35:29 am
King of Eggs: You've said you're experienced from elsewhere. Can you give a brief summary of the style of play from your experience?
For a start I don't believe in the shot-for-shot style of RVS expressed by Jim.
Well CrownofFire (Yes, OMGURS) as for my prefferd Scum buddy, I would, from this pool of humanity, choose a scapegoat actually.
Don't you have a question you want to ask CrownofFire?
That would be good.
Clearly I do not have a question for him? If I had wouldn't I have asked one?
Good for whom exactly?
RVS, I believe; feel free to correct me on this since you ‘knows all there is to know about the game of mafia’; stands for Random Vote Stage… yes? Then requiring a structured response seems counter intuitive.
Sorry if i wandered a bit there.
My style of play revolves around finding the motivations behind seemingly irrelevant posts. As you may have noticed I am rather aggressive some times. I apologise for any offence this may cause in advance.
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 25, 2011, 03:35:35 am
RVS, I believe; feel free to correct me on this since you ‘knows all there is to know about the game of mafia’; stands for Random Vote Stage… yes? Then requiring a structured response seems counter intuitive.I believe the point behind it is that the setup is random. So there's no point in going after somebody specific (that'd be bringing feelings over from the metagame). The questions are really meant as prodding, to get people to break down or slip up. And because you have no idea who the scum is, you go after a random person. And of course, since the scum wants to act like Town, they follow suit. Any kind of question can be enough to get some people to crack.
Sorry if i wandered a bit there.
And continuing on, it appears that supercharazard and breadbocks are the only ones that have yet to post. As long as they at least show up, we're good.
But until then... Toaster, nobody's picked on you yet. You and Jim are to be mentors here, but at the same time trying to further your own goals as Mafia or Town. How would you see that interfering with your goals if you were scum? If you were scum, how far would you go to advise the players versus ensuring your own victory as the Mafia? What if Jim were the other scum? (This is also partially to Jim as well)
(By the way, I try to bold names when I mention one, for easy reference)
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 25, 2011, 04:35:14 am
I'd like to add to and sort of extend Jim's post and say that everybody is considered scummy at some point in the game (and if they aren't, they should). Your job is to look like you're Town, no matter what side you're on. The more you look Town, the less likely you are to be lynched, and the more likely somebody ELSE will be lynched. Both of which are good no matter what side you're on. Everybody is viewed as scum by the Town, even other Town. Mafia is a game of suspicion, not investigation. Everybody is guilty until proven innocent, including you and me. The Town players try to confuse people to find a scum-slip. The scum are trying to do the same to throw suspicion off themselves, and to mimic the Town. Don't get confused by anybody. If you're scum, that means your death. If you're Town, that means time is wasted chasing you. (This is meant as a friendly piece of advice. I am not the most experienced, take all of this with a grain of salt)
This is mostly correct. I disagree that people are guilty until proven innocent; the burden of proof to show a person is scum lies upon the attacker, not the defender. More than a few people have fallen to the trap that since a person can not prove they are town, they must be scum. That line of thinking never works. Find good reasons by yourself and nail people for them; don't rely on other people to fail to defend themselves.
RVS, I believe; feel free to correct me on this since you ‘knows all there is to know about the game of mafia’; stands for Random Vote Stage… yes? Then requiring a structured response seems counter intuitive.
Your emphasis is misplaced.
It's the Random Vote Stage. Random votes are the basis, but to say the whole thing is random is stupid. It's not an incredibly helpful stage of the game but you are greatly misled if you think you can't get anything useful out of it.
Asking hypothetical game related questions to everyone in the game is the best course of action. Anything else is a waste and a misuse.
My style of play revolves around finding the motivations behind seemingly irrelevant posts. As you may have noticed I am rather aggressive some times. I apologise for any offence this may cause in advance.
I hope that's not all you're going to do. And I hope that you're not going to sit on your hands and wait for seemingly irrelevant posts to come around.
Clearly I do not have a question for him? If I had wouldn't I have asked one?
Good for whom exactly?
Good for you, of course. Asking hypothetical questions is a good way to stay active in the beginning stages of the game. Activity is important, you know.
If you don't have a question for CrownofFire then why are you voting him? Reasonless votes are suspicious even in the RVS.
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 25, 2011, 05:42:32 am
I mean it in more of a general sense, really. While you're convinced that particular person is scum, everybody is probably thinking that there's somebody else who is more likely to be scum. It's more of a sense of that at first, you have zero reason to believe anybody isn't scum. So... I don't know.I'd like to add to and sort of extend Jim's post and say that everybody is considered scummy at some point in the game (and if they aren't, they should). Your job is to look like you're Town, no matter what side you're on. The more you look Town, the less likely you are to be lynched, and the more likely somebody ELSE will be lynched. Both of which are good no matter what side you're on. Everybody is viewed as scum by the Town, even other Town. Mafia is a game of suspicion, not investigation. Everybody is guilty until proven innocent, including you and me. The Town players try to confuse people to find a scum-slip. The scum are trying to do the same to throw suspicion off themselves, and to mimic the Town. Don't get confused by anybody. If you're scum, that means your death. If you're Town, that means time is wasted chasing you. (This is meant as a friendly piece of advice. I am not the most experienced, take all of this with a grain of salt)
This is mostly correct. I disagree that people are guilty until proven innocent; the burden of proof to show a person is scum lies upon the attacker, not the defender. More than a few people have fallen to the trap that since a person can not prove they are town, they must be scum. That line of thinking never works. Find good reasons by yourself and nail people for them; don't rely on other people to fail to defend themselves.
Anyway, it just occurred to me as a shorthand way to refer to what I was thinking. The fact that it's 3 AM might have something to do with it too. Tired is a bad place to be when playing Mafia.
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 25, 2011, 05:43:28 am
Well CrownofFire (Yes, OMGURS) as for my prefferd Scum buddy, I would, from this pool of humanity, choose a scapegoat actually.
Do I really need to quote myself?
And again for emphasis
Well CrownofFire (Yes, OMGURS) as for my preferred Scum buddy, I would, from this pool of humanity, choose a scapegoat actually.
Also how can you say that I have not been promoting conversation? Have you seen the back and forth here? Plenty of evidence here ... of what, is the question. May I recommend you stop trying to pick at other players. You like Questions? Fine then, Who do you consider to be Scum and why? Jim Groovester
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 25, 2011, 06:21:55 am
And you never did answer my second question, The King of Eggs. I advise ye answer, lest ye be hung! (Posting while tired leads to strange results)
Well CrownofFire (Yes, OMGURS) as for my prefferd Scum buddy, I would, from this pool of humanity, choose a scapegoat actually.So in other words, you would choose somebody that you could easily bus?
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 25, 2011, 06:48:43 am
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 25, 2011, 07:04:39 am
Sorry kinda missed your question. basically i would pick someone i could if i needed to yesSo you would pick a person that looks scummy on purpose? Or maybe a person that isn't good at acting non-scummy?
Because otherwise, that could literally apply to anybody. I don't see a reason why you couldn't bus anybody unless the Town was convinced they weren't scum (which is fairly unlikely).
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 25, 2011, 07:07:01 am
So. You like questions?
(These are directed at The King of Eggs)
If you were a cop, who would you investigate, based on the day so far?
If you were a vigilante, (even though there can't be one), who would you kill?
Also, if you could elaborate on this:
basically i would pick someone i could if i needed to yes
On another note:
Supercharazard and Breadbocks.
You two need to start posting. I've asked both of you questions in an earlier post. Answer them.
On yet another note:
Crown's got a point there - the other scum are there to help you, not for you to be a hero.
Woo questions all round! Mostly.
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 25, 2011, 07:14:31 am
On another note:Hey, give them a break, it's only been 5 hours. Not to mention you posted at midnight my time, which is around 3 AM their time; assuming they're on the east coast US, which seems to be the case on their profiles. Be a little more accommodating to our non-nocturnal and/or European friends, yeah? :P
Supercharazard and Breadbocks.
You two need to start posting. I've asked both of you questions in an earlier post. Answer them.
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 25, 2011, 10:06:32 am
The King of Eggs, it could just be your different style of play, but you come off as heartless and overly defensive to me. I mean WANTING a scumbuddy you can bus? Wouldn't you much prefer a scumbuddy who's just skilled? I SUFFER FROM PARRANOIR, I TRUST NO ONE NOT TO BUS ME FIRST.
So. You like questions?
(These are directed at The King of Eggs)
If you were a cop, who would you investigate, based on the day so far? JIM, HE IS A POWERFUL TOWN ALLY OR A POWERFUL MAFIA MEMBER, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHICH
If you were a vigilante, (even though there can't be one), who would you kill? I WOULD TARGET JIM WITH THIS POWER ROLE ALSO, AS IF I CAN NOT BE SURE OF HIS ALLIGENCE THEN I CAN NOT CO-EXIST WITH HIM. OF COURSE VIG USSUALLY DON'T KILL N1, AND I FOLLOW THAT PRACTISE
Also, if you could elaborate on this:basically i would pick someone i could if i needed to yesI MEAN THAT I WOULD CHOOSE SOMEONE I COULD USE AS A DISTRACTION QUICKLY IF NEEDED
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 25, 2011, 10:29:51 am
IN ORDER TO SAVE ON QUOTE TAGS MY COMMENTS ARE GREENThe King of Eggs, it could just be your different style of play, but you come off as heartless and overly defensive to me. I mean WANTING a scumbuddy you can bus? Wouldn't you much prefer a scumbuddy who's just skilled? I SUFFER FROM PARRANOIR, I TRUST NO ONE NOT TO BUS ME FIRST.[/caps]
So. You like questions?
(These are directed at The King of Eggs)
If you were a cop, who would you investigate, based on the day so far? JIM, HE IS A POWERFUL TOWN ALLY OR A POWERFUL MAFIA MEMBER, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHICH
If you were a vigilante, (even though there can't be one), who would you kill? I WOULD TARGET JIM WITH THIS POWER ROLE ALSO, AS IF I CAN NOT BE SURE OF HIS ALLIGENCE THEN I CAN NOT CO-EXIST WITH HIM. OF COURSE VIG USSUALLY DON'T KILL N1, AND I FOLLOW THAT PRACTISE
Also, if you could elaborate on this:basically i would pick someone i could if i needed to yesI MEAN THAT I WOULD CHOOSE SOMEONE I COULD USE AS A DISTRACTION QUICKLY IF NEEDED
Okay then, mister "parranoir", you seem to want to target Jim a lot. Any particular reason for that, other than him being experienced? Because vigging a powerful Town player seems like a really bad idea in my book. I'd rather eliminate someone that looked suspicious. Because you can always lynch a guy, but vig kills are limited until the vig dies. Coexisting with your fellow players is the best way to victory, anyway. If you don't want to coexist, then you don't want the Town to exist. You seem to want to eliminate a powerful Town player, any particular player has a higher chance to be Town than scum. Not to mention that you are completely ignoring Toaster, the other "powerful" player.
Ah, a distraction. Well, I would think that calling your scum buddy nothing but a "distraction" a little rude, don't you think? Bussing is a fairly major scumtell as well. Having a backup plan doesn't really make any sense, anyway. The only time you'd want to "quickly" use a distraction is when you're in danger of being lynched, and then you just gave away BOTH the scum players, instead of just yourself. Which is something that scum definitely does not want.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 25, 2011, 11:30:52 am
Jim Groovester: I would probally inspect the person making the most accusations of other people.
Supercharazard: Who do you think would be the most dangerous as scum in this game?
Toaster and Jim, because they are the most experienced.
Supercharazard, what do you think of lurking as a strategy?
It's a terrible strategy, even if you are confirmed townie, there are some who'd go with a policy lynch because you were lurking.
Be a little more accommodating to our non-nocturnal and/or European friends, yeah? :P
Northern Irish, actually. He posted it about half an hour before I awoke, and I don't check my computer in the mornign before going to school.
Now, for the fun bit:
CrownofFire
What was that? Did you fail at quoting?
What do you think is the worst case scenario for roles?
Post by: Supercharazad on March 25, 2011, 11:31:30 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 25, 2011, 02:28:56 pm
JIM, HE IS A POWERFUL TOWN ALLY OR A POWERFUL MAFIA MEMBER, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHICH
. . .
I WOULD TARGET JIM WITH THIS POWER ROLE ALSO, AS IF I CAN NOT BE SURE OF HIS ALLIGENCE THEN I CAN NOT CO-EXIST WITH HIM. OF COURSE VIG USSUALLY DON'T KILL N1, AND I FOLLOW THAT PRACTISE
You should never automatically suspect anyone just because of their experience.
(Yes, OMGURS)
And why is that a good reason?
Also how can you say that I have not been promoting conversation? Have you seen the back and forth here? Plenty of evidence here ... of what, is the question. May I recommend you stop trying to pick at other players. You like Questions? Fine then, Who do you consider to be Scum and why? Jim Groovester
Picking at other players has another name: scumhunting. Maybe you should learn how to do it sometime instead of telling people to stop.
I don't have any scum picks yet. It's too early in the game.
Is there any special reason why you suspect me? Or why you say you suspect me.
Post by: Bdthemag on March 25, 2011, 03:51:52 pm
Bdthemag, who would you want to be scum in this game?
I wouldn't know, since i've never played mafia with anyone here.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 25, 2011, 04:07:23 pm
Jim Groovester: I would probally inspect the person making the most accusations of other people.
And why is that?
Post by: Bdthemag on March 25, 2011, 04:09:45 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 25, 2011, 04:11:20 pm
Post by: breadbocks on March 25, 2011, 04:21:32 pm
Breadbocks, Out of all the new players here, who do you think would make the worst scum?I think TKoE. He'd need to pick up on local playstyle quite fast to not seem scummy, because IIRC, passivity can seem scummy here.
Breadbocks, if you were a doctor, who would you protect?Hard to pinpoint. If I were the doctor, I'd pick either the second best scum hunter, or the best scumhunter, depending on how experienced the person I think is scummy is.
Now. First day has, from my experience, been the most important day for getting scumtells. I'm going to preemptively put my vote into Extend. Also, Votecount?
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 25, 2011, 04:25:00 pm
Post by: Heliman on March 25, 2011, 04:51:17 pm
Just got home from school. I live in EST, and my school lets out crazy late. Ima scan for posts about me, then read the rest of the stuff. Let's see what we got here.A fair enough explanation of your absence, considering your average posting times.Breadbocks, Out of all the new players here, who do you think would make the worst scum?I think TKoE. He'd need to pick up on local playstyle quite fast to not seem scummy, because IIRC, passivity can seem scummy here.
Unvote Breadbocks
Heliman, what do you think is the biggest scumtell in mafia?A scum role-revealing that he is scum would probably be the biggest scumtell ever, the scum won it anyway and there was no jester.
Aside from that specific scenario, the biggest scumtell? Probably when a player becomes really, really pissed after only being pressed slightly. Come to think of it, it's exactly like what is happening to Egg right now. It's very curious, bearing in mind that he considers himself experienced to begin with.
Curious enough for me to want to see what happens when he's pressured further, at least.
Vote King of Eggs
Eggs. Are you typing in caps lock for any particular reason besides childish rage? It isn't exactly cruise-control for cool, you know.
You've missed the whole point of my opening post, which is that you shouldn't doubt the impartiality of my advice. I'm going to give it to you even if it works against me, because, for me, the purpose of the game isn't to win but to teach all of you. I will never give advice in bad faith. Is that clear? You need to answer this, because if you don't, I am going to have a very difficult time teaching you and you are going to have a very difficult time learning.I'm not questioning the validity of the point in any way, shape or form. I realize that ICs are obligated and indeed happy to post advice that can only aid the reader, regardless of the recipient and I greatly respect both you and your position in this mafia game.
However, I'm afraid that I cannot lower my FoS just yet (and admittedly, it would even be upgraded to a vote-press if Egg wasn't acting so darn suspicious now and I wasn't waiting for breadbocks to answer my question earlier.) Your advice, while essentially immune any and all Protown/Proscum related critique, should not be immune to accusations of Freudian slips, which is an entirely different ballpark, and is what I'm suspicious of you for. Instead of viewing it as a staunch refusal of your advice, think of it as having someone accept and even be eager to hear your ideas, but on the flip-side is also looking doing an in-depth analysis of all your diction. Your role here still carries with it a 2/9 chance of being scum, and if you are scum, it wouldn't be a good game for us beginners if you gave yourself up. If this isn't how I should be scum hunting an IC, Tell me, how else can I?
Post by: Supercharazad on March 25, 2011, 04:56:16 pm
it would even be upgraded to a vote-press if Egg wasn't acting so darn suspicious now and I wasn't waiting for breadbocks to answer my question earlier
Actually, you probably should have ignored Egg for the ime being, do the press vote and before tuesday, change your vote to Egg. As Jim has told me and others countless times before (him or someone else, I think it's him) "it's not like you can't change it".
Post by: breadbocks on March 25, 2011, 05:00:24 pm
Well, I'd want to be a Cop, as my scumhunting skills are lacking. It'd help the townWhy would you want to have a power role when you claim to be unable to scumhunt well? Because a cop is a powerful role, and to use it to glide by because you can't scumhunt the normal way is less than spectacular.
On the other hand, if a non-IC may comment, it seems like you are more than capable of holding your own in a BM, at the least. Like the OP says, don't go hating on yourself.
Heli, mind quoting your post at me? I missed it, I think.
Post by: breadbocks on March 25, 2011, 05:06:40 pm
Also, Super, he seems like he is more trying to vote-press Egg before he goes to Jim. It didn't come across as a "You're scum" vote so much as a "Explain yourself, and here's an incentive" vote. However, Heliand Egg, I'll be watching this volley closely.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 25, 2011, 05:12:14 pm
it would even be upgraded to a vote-press if Egg wasn't acting so darn suspicious now and I wasn't waiting for breadbocks to answer my question earlier
Actually, you probably should have ignored Egg for the ime being, do the press vote and before tuesday, change your vote to Egg. As Jim has told me and others countless times before (him or someone else, I think it's him) "it's not like you can't change it".
Nothing wrong with applying pressure onto TKoE. Nor would there have been anything wrong with pressure voting me. Heliman's doing fine right now.
You've missed the whole point of my opening post, which is that you shouldn't doubt the impartiality of my advice. I'm going to give it to you even if it works against me, because, for me, the purpose of the game isn't to win but to teach all of you. I will never give advice in bad faith. Is that clear? You need to answer this, because if you don't, I am going to have a very difficult time teaching you and you are going to have a very difficult time learning.I'm not questioning the validity of the point in any way, shape or form. I realize that ICs are obligated and indeed happy to post advice that can only aid the reader, regardless of the recipient and I greatly respect both you and your position in this mafia game.
However, I'm afraid that I cannot lower my FoS just yet (and admittedly, it would even be upgraded to a vote-press if Egg wasn't acting so darn suspicious now and I wasn't waiting for breadbocks to answer my question earlier.) Your advice, while essentially immune any and all Protown/Proscum related critique, should not be immune to accusations of Freudian slips, which is an entirely different ballpark, and is what I'm suspicious of you for. Instead of viewing it as a staunch refusal of your advice, think of it as having someone accept and even be eager to hear your ideas, but on the flip-side is also looking doing an in-depth analysis of all your diction. Your role here still carries with it a 2/9 chance of being scum, and if you are scum, it wouldn't be a good game for us beginners if you gave yourself up. If this isn't how I should be scum hunting an IC, Tell me, how else can I?
You can stop buttering me up. I don't really care. Just get to what you want to say without all the verbal fluff. It's distracting.
There wasn't any Freudian slip because I meant everything that I said. Just because the PM you received from the mod says that you are town, does not mean that you will be considered town. Town have to do their part to look town while they play.
I'm still not clear on exactly what you think you caught me doing. The Freudian slip you accuse me of is part of the advice I gave, and a fairly important part too.
However, Heliand Egg, I'll be watching this volley closely.
Why is that cause for suspicion?
Post by: breadbocks on March 25, 2011, 05:35:21 pm
The fact I'm watching the volley is both the cause and effect. Egg has the thin excuse of a different community he's played in to cover the fact that he all but questioned why we are scum hunting. For Heli, it's more that he seems to be sort of hiding his arguments behind walls of meaningless words. Thus I am initially suspicious, and then the fact that both Egg's excuse for a pretty grave thing for Town was weak at best, and the fact Heli is spending more time arguing with the IC than paying attention to others give me a particular interest in this exchange. It's one thing to continue an argument while pursuing others. It's odd at the least to single-mindedly pursue one person while ignoring the rest in this game. It doesn't help that "Y U MAKE CAPSLOCK" is a bs reason to vote, when he seemed all but convicted you are scum.However, Heliand Egg, I'll be watching this volley closely.Why is that cause for suspicion?
PREVIEW EDIT: Unvote Seph UnFoS Egg Hmm. Looking at my thoughts on metaphorical paper makes me think that I'm more interested in how Heliman responds to this. I'm still interested in how Egg covers for himself, but not as much as how Heli does.
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 25, 2011, 05:50:09 pm
Why would you want to have a power role when you claim to be unable to scumhunt well? Because a cop is a powerful role, and to use it to glide by because you can't scumhunt the normal way is less than spectacular.Unvote. Well, I must agree there. But still - someone who is poor at scumhunting would help the town more as a cop - providing they aren't lynched or NK'd Day/Night 1. They could roleclaim and the town gains confirmed information, barring claims of WIFOM. Alternatively, if they get a scum result, it might help them find scumtells to convince the town anyway.
While a good answer, I was after names. I'll second your call for a Votecount.Breadbocks, if you were a doctor, who would you protect?Hard to pinpoint. If I were the doctor, I'd pick either the second best scum hunter, or the best scumhunter, depending on how experienced the person I think is scummy is.
Bdthemag:
Even so, you know that there are IC's and beginners. Also, if you could answer Jim:Bdthemag, who would you want to be scum in this game?
I wouldn't know, since i've never played mafia with anyone here.
I asked you a clarifying question here that I want answered.Jim Groovester: I would probally inspect the person making the most accusations of other people.And why is that?
Heliman, great answer, except for one thing: Refuge in Audacity. While it 'never works' according to the first post, it does create WIFOM and the likes. I agree though.
The King of Eggs:
IN ORDER TO SAVE ON QUOTE TAGS MY COMMENTS ARE GREENOn to the fun part. Firstly: I'm paranoid too, mostly. And I wouldn't bus my scumbuddy unless they were going down anyway and/or useless. Pre-emptive bussing wouldn't help.The King of Eggs, it could just be your different style of play, but you come off as heartless and overly defensive to me. I mean WANTING a scumbuddy you can bus? Wouldn't you much prefer a scumbuddy who's just skilled? I SUFFER FROM PARRANOIR, I TRUST NO ONE NOT TO BUS ME FIRST.
So. You like questions?
(These are directed at The King of Eggs)
If you were a cop, who would you investigate, based on the day so far? JIM, HE IS A POWERFUL TOWN ALLY OR A POWERFUL MAFIA MEMBER, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHICH
If you were a vigilante, (even though there can't be one), who would you kill? I WOULD TARGET JIM WITH THIS POWER ROLE ALSO, AS IF I CAN NOT BE SURE OF HIS ALLIGENCE THEN I CAN NOT CO-EXIST WITH HIM. OF COURSE VIG USSUALLY DON'T KILL N1, AND I FOLLOW THAT PRACTISE
Also, if you could elaborate on this:basically i would pick someone i could if i needed to yesI MEAN THAT I WOULD CHOOSE SOMEONE I COULD USE AS A DISTRACTION QUICKLY IF NEEDED
Your cop target: Not bad. I did that one game - investigate the IC. It would've helped if I wasn't NK'd.
Your vig target: You'd risk the fact he was town? I thought you were paranoid. Also - you don't need to follow traditional practice. If I had a scumpick, I know I'd hit them N1.
Your elaboration: That isn't too scummy, but you are heartless.
My vote stays off you for now. The FoS stays on.
And to you guys who are worried about times: weekends count for 0 hours guys!
Post by: Toaster on March 25, 2011, 05:51:10 pm
major_sephiroth: What do you hope to get out of this game? If you could pick one of the four possible power roles (Cop, Doctor, Godfather, or Roleblocker), which would you pick? Why?Well, I'd want to be a Cop, as my scumhunting skills are lacking. It'd help the town - assuming I could convince the town of my results. Godfather is a close second, due to it being a goldmine of WIFOM.
Fair enough. Unvote.
TKoE: I see. I'm curious to see how it works for you.
CrownofFire: The best way I can answer that is to refer you to BM XXI (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=77394.0), where I was a IC and scum. I felt I did a pretty good job of separating the two jobs (encouraging good play as IC and seeking a win as scum) the first two days, but I got lazy day three. I'd rather have seven good players come out of this game than win as scum.
If Jim and I were both scum, I think we'd have to keep reminding each other to help people. Well, Jim would probably keep it up anyway.
Breadbocks: Using random.org to pick a RV target is perfectly valid. Advertising that choice takes all the pressure out of it.
Heliman, I want to pick your brain next. What do you think the value is of a townie convincing someone else that he is indeed town-aligned? How much self-defense do you think is too much?
BD: What would you look for in the ideal scum mate?
Post by: Heliman on March 25, 2011, 05:59:27 pm
Expect an answer to all of them when I return.
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 25, 2011, 08:46:12 pm
CrownofFireEr, yeah, I should have previewed that post. Way too late for that now, I suppose. Ah well, it's clear enough anyway.
What was that? Did you fail at quoting?
What do you think is the worst case scenario for roles?
Worst case scenario? Well, both of the possible Mafia roles rely on what the Town has. A Godfather is completely useless if there are no Cops, and a Roleblocker is useless with zero power roles in play. Given that, it's hard to tell. There's a maximum of one of each role, after all. So overall, it's probably zero Town roles. If it were possible to have more than one Godfather, then a Cop and two Godfathers.
CrownofFire, bussing is actually a legitimate scum strategy. It might not be the nicest strategy, but being nice doesn't win games. Unwillingness to vote your scum partner, especially if he's a sinking ship, is usually a more visible scum tell than bussing him.I understand that, but the way that The King of Eggs worded it made it seem like he would have to "quickly" bus his partner, which makes it seem to me that the only scenario he'd have is to throw suspicion off himself when he's in danger of getting lynched. In other words, it's not his partner that would be the sinking ship, it would be him.
I'll be reading into other posts after this.
Post by: breadbocks on March 25, 2011, 09:59:45 pm
Woah! A lot of questions here that I will get to after I get back from going to the gun range.Well, it seems someone likes shooting an awful lot. You've been gone 1 minute shy of 5 hours. Toaster's #1 scumtell.
Expect an answer to all of them when I return.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 25, 2011, 11:50:06 pm
Give it twenty-four hours or so.
Post by: Toaster on March 25, 2011, 11:52:34 pm
Woah! A lot of questions here that I will get to after I get back from going to the gun range.Well, it seems someone likes shooting an awful lot. You've been gone 1 minute shy of 5 hours. Toaster's #1 scumtell.
Expect an answer to all of them when I return.
It needs to be repeated to fall under T#1ST. Doing it once is benign- I do it too when I'm tired/busy/whatever.
Post by: Heliman on March 26, 2011, 02:55:45 am
*looks at some questions*
*Sigh*
You'll have to excuse the big words, I tend to make them when making an argument I find intricate.
Plain words then? Sure, why in the hell not.
Heli, mind quoting your post at me? I missed it, I think.You already answered question, because it was my first question. I said that I was waiting for you earlier, meaning past tense, meaning that you already answered it.
It's one thing to continue an argument while pursuing others. It's odd at the least to single-mindedly pursue one person while ignoring the rest in this game.Bread, I think it is a bit impossible to be "single-mindedly" pursuing someone when I have only made 6 posts(including this one) since the start of the game and accused 3 players in the process, that’s literally one new person every two posts.
It doesn't help that "Y U MAKE CAPSLOCK" is a bs reason to vote, when he seemed all but convicted you are scum.While admittedly I am genuinely curious as to why he's using so much caps, the real reason I'm asking him this question is not to see his reasoning, but to make him angrier. The more furious he is, the more scumtells he will have.
And two, show me where (I was going to say “he,” but who are you referring to here?) said that he was “convicted” that I was scum.
Heliman, I want to pick your brain next. What do you think the value is of a townie convincing someone else that he is indeed town-aligned? How much self-defense do you think is too much?The value of a townie convincing someone else of his alignment is obvious and two pronged: it prevents the town from wasting a day on a bum lead and improves the chances that the next person they target will be a scum.
As for the second question, it depends on the situation. The way I see it, as long as a bandwagon isn't forming against you there's no real reason that you should start to turtle. Votes against players tend to fall lazily like snow and blow away easily like dust in the wind, provided they have nothing to latch onto. However, if there is a bandwagon barreling toward my tender townie asshole, then I don't think there's such a thing as too much self-defense, because Town would be wasting a whole day if I didn't defend properly.
There wasn't any Freudian slip because I meant everything that I said.*pinches the area between eyebrows*
God Jim I know that you meant everything you said.
I'm merely suspicious of the way you unintentionally said it.
I'd blather on about it more but my suspicion here really doesn't matter anymore, because there is a really angry Egg bouncing around that I'd rather go chase and paw at like a kitten instead.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 26, 2011, 03:39:34 am
I meant everything that I said, and I intended to say every word of it.
It was worded that way deliberately.
Post by: Heliman on March 26, 2011, 03:40:59 am
Well then, I don't know what to say.
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 26, 2011, 03:55:05 am
If it were possible to have more than one Godfather
There can only be one.
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 26, 2011, 04:27:49 am
Putting my two cents in here. It does more than that - it may increase the townie's chance of being NK'd. It also allows the scum to pull out all sorts of WIFOM regarding the townie.Heliman, I want to pick your brain next. What do you think the value is of a townie convincing someone else that he is indeed town-aligned? How much self-defense do you think is too much?The value of a townie convincing someone else of his alignment is obvious and two pronged: it prevents the town from wasting a day on a bum lead and improves the chances that the next person they target will be a scum.
Also TKoE, You haven't spoken too much after that outburst. So you have at least one thing to say, answer this:
If everyone started to vote you, what would you do?
Post by: Heliman on March 26, 2011, 04:36:37 am
Actually, I think that it would be best to not weigh the value of defending yourself on the tactics of the scum, it's WIFOM in and of itself.Putting my two cents in here. It does more than that - it may increase the townie's chance of being NK'd. It also allows the scum to pull out all sorts of WIFOM regarding the townie.Heliman, I want to pick your brain next. What do you think the value is of a townie convincing someone else that he is indeed town-aligned? How much self-defense do you think is too much?The value of a townie convincing someone else of his alignment is obvious and two pronged: it prevents the town from wasting a day on a bum lead and improves the chances that the next person they target will be a scum.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 26, 2011, 04:53:35 am
I'm going to unvote Crown for now, as I could be doing more with my vote.
seph, if you were a doctor, who would you protect tonight?
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 26, 2011, 05:45:04 am
Votecount please.Assuming he doesn't get lynched, TKoE. He may be right, for all I know. And if he is not lynched, the mafia could NK him to put pressure on someone who wanted his lynch.
I'm going to unvote Crown for now, as I could be doing more with my vote.
seph, if you were a doctor, who would you protect tonight?
If he does get lynched, Crown. Similar reasons, different side of the arguement.
Plus, as an added bonus, if they were scum, it wouldn't be too bad - there's no vig that it'd stop. Also, I'd change targets each night unless there is a confirmed townie. Then I'd keep protecting them.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 26, 2011, 06:16:14 am
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 26, 2011, 06:42:16 am
Also TKoE, You haven't spoken too much after that outburst. So you have at least one thing to say, answer this:
If everyone started to vote you, what would you do?
Die :P
In all serriousness. I would ask for a logical argument from each accuser. Thereby giving the town more information.
... ALL CAPS IS FOR EMPHASIS :/...
I trust no one. Ever. Anywhere. I don't like a partner. If I'm anti town then I preffer a serial killer role
Mod: v/la notice. 3days. Sorry all
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 26, 2011, 06:47:15 am
Mod: v/la notice. 3days. Sorry all
What?
Also, votecount coming up soon.
Post by: breadbocks on March 26, 2011, 12:24:32 pm
That post was directed at Jim. He asked my reasons for the FoSs, and I followed up. That's what I'm supposed to do, no?It doesn't help that "Y U MAKE CAPSLOCK" is a bs reason to vote, when he seemed all but convicted you are scum.While admittedly I am genuinely curious as to why he's using so much caps, the real reason I'm asking him this question is not to see his reasoning, but to make him angrier. The more furious he is, the more scumtells he will have.
And two, show me where (I was going to say “he,” but who are you referring to here?) said that he was “convicted” that I was scum.
Post by: Heliman on March 26, 2011, 01:03:14 pm
In that case, no, I was never convinced he was scum, if I was I wouldn't be backing off of him right now and concentrating on Egg.
Post by: Heliman on March 26, 2011, 02:12:15 pm
The alternative would be a replacement, but that would be up to Lordnincompoop.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 26, 2011, 02:18:50 pm
EBWODP: also, seeing as Egg is going to be out of commission for the next three days with a lot of questions that he needs to elaborate on properly, I think we should Vote Extend at least an extra day or two after the current deadline. If we don't, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, he'll come back after the start of day 2, and no one should ever have a free passover of the noose due to RL reasons.
The alternative would be a replacement, but that would be up to Lordnincompoop.
If he lurks, he gets prodded and then modkilled.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 26, 2011, 02:56:06 pm
Mod: v/la notice. 3days. Sorry all
What?
Also, votecount coming up soon.
Vacation/Leave of Absence.
Post by: breadbocks on March 26, 2011, 03:10:26 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 26, 2011, 03:12:26 pm
TKOE slips off into the forest, mostly unnoticed.
Votecount:
Heliman - 2 - Toaster, Breadbocks
Supercharazard - 1 - bdthemag
Bdthemag - 1 - Jim Groovester
Breadbocks - 0 -
CrownofFire - 1 - The King of Eggs
The King of Eggs - 2 - Heliman, CrownofFire
major_sephiroth - 1 - Supercharazard
Jim Groovester - 0 -
Toaster - 0 -
Not Voting - 1 - major_sephiroth
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 0 -
Shorten - 0 -
In its current state, the day will end with a No Lynch.
The Day has been modextended to Thursday, 7PM GMT.
You need 3 to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Post by: breadbocks on March 26, 2011, 03:37:19 pm
Bdthmag, care to explain your absence?
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 26, 2011, 03:39:32 pm
Post by: Supercharazad on March 26, 2011, 03:58:39 pm
I've extended it myself, meaning the extend votes are reset.
Why? That makes the day 216 hours long (I think), which seems a TAD long.
Post by: Heliman on March 26, 2011, 04:45:13 pm
Bacause he's the mod and he can do that sort of thing.I've extended it myself, meaning the extend votes are reset.Why? That makes the day 216 hours long (I think), which seems a TAD long.
Bdthmag, care to explain your absence?I've been looking at his posts, and apparently he has been spending time doing this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80570.0). It would be stupid of him to use this as an excuse though, because he didn't even type much there. Opportunity to post + Unanswered questions+ a failure to post= Very scummy behavior. I know the "failure to post" scumtell has been thrown around proactively in the last couple of pages, but so far he's had nothing but incredibly short and low quality posts.
To put it simply, not only is he going through a lurking spell now, but he has been generally inactive since the start of the game. He hasn't made a response to Crown's answer yet and he hasn't answered Jim's question, even though he has had the time to add input on either of them.
That is Scummy, very VERY scummy.
Unvote TKoE(No point in questioning the formally absent scummy player, at least while he's gone.)
Vote Bdthmag Yes, please explain your absence, and while you're at it, tell us why your not properly responding to questions and answers, because we all know you're not damn near busy enough to "not have the time."
Post by: breadbocks on March 26, 2011, 05:05:43 pm
Bdthmag, you walk a very fine line.
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 26, 2011, 05:30:54 pm
And what would you do if everyone was voting you, you knew who scum was, and you were innocent?I'm going to assume this was directed at me.
Look at the arguements the scum are using and find holes. I'll probably still get lynched, but I'll leave the town with some evidence against the scum.
Also superchar - surely you must think someone is scummy by now. How about you question people on scumtells and the like? Apologies if I'm your scumpick.
Bdthemag should be active/online about now. If he hasn't posted by the next time I do, he's over-lurking.
That was mostly to say it's not all good for the town - nothing short of a proper confirmed townie or scum is, really.Actually, I think that it would be best to not weigh the value of defending yourself on the tactics of the scum, it's WIFOM in and of itself.Putting my two cents in here. It does more than that - it may increase the townie's chance of being NK'd. It also allows the scum to pull out all sorts of WIFOM regarding the townie.Heliman, I want to pick your brain next. What do you think the value is of a townie convincing someone else that he is indeed town-aligned? How much self-defense do you think is too much?The value of a townie convincing someone else of his alignment is obvious and two pronged: it prevents the town from wasting a day on a bum lead and improves the chances that the next person they target will be a scum.
On another point, good diversion onto the lurker Heliman. Almost too subtle to see.
If he doesn't post here soon, and explain the shit, you will be downgraded to a HoS, and he will get my vote.Bread, that's a poor reason to downgrade suspicion. Voting BD for lurking sure, but un-suspecting Heli because someone else is lurking?
Bdthmag, you walk a very fine line.
Post by: breadbocks on March 26, 2011, 05:43:51 pm
Bdthmag, you have 12 hours to post, and explain yourself well.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 26, 2011, 06:03:06 pm
Also superchar - surely you must think someone is scummy by now. How about you question people on scumtells and the like? Apologies if I'm your scumpick.
Nope, I was waiting for you to answer.
I think Egg is scummy, but there is no point voting for him yet, as that would garner no information.
RANDOM.ORG TIME!
Unvote
Jim, If you were a cop, who would you investigate tonight?
Post by: Heliman on March 26, 2011, 06:20:19 pm
On another point, good diversion onto the lurker Heliman. Almost too subtle to see.Hooray! The sheepish scumhunter finally makes an accusation! It was on me, mind, but that doesn't matter.
major_sephiroth, Normally when people cast a FoS they give a detailed explanation of why they're doing it, So tell me Major, What exactly do you think I'm diverting from, How is it subtle, and why do you think it's suspicious?
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 26, 2011, 06:34:25 pm
You're diverting attention from yourself onto BD. It wasn't the most subtle thing in the world, and any sort of diversion is suspicious to me. The FoS is also there because you seem to defend, rather then attack. You also said at one point that a townie should only really defend if there's a bus forming on him.Bdthmag, care to explain your absence?I've been looking at his posts, and apparently he has been spending time doing this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80570.0). It would be stupid of him to use this as an excuse though, because he didn't even type much there. Opportunity to post + Unanswered questions+ a failure to post= Very scummy behavior. I know the "failure to post" scumtell has been thrown around proactively in the last couple of pages, but so far he's had nothing but incredibly short and low quality posts.
To put it simply, not only is he going through a lurking spell now, but he has been generally inactive since the start of the game. He hasn't made a response to Crown's answer yet and he hasn't answered Jim's question, even though he has had the time to add input on either of them.
That is Scummy, very VERY scummy.
Unvote TKoE(No point in questioning the formally absent scummy player, at least while he's gone.)
Vote Bdthmag Yes, please explain your absence, and while you're at it, tell us why your not properly responding to questions and answers, because we all know you're not damn near busy enough to "not have the time."
I agree that BD's lurking, but I'm willing to give him a few hours.
And also, sheepish? That's a little harsh, don't you think?
Post by: webadict on March 26, 2011, 06:52:59 pm
Your cop target: Not bad. I did that one game - investigate the IC. It would've helped if I wasn't NK'd.Lol. Yeah, I got you good, didn't I? I'm not even sure why I felt like killing you, either.
Post by: breadbocks on March 26, 2011, 07:00:02 pm
Post by: webadict on March 26, 2011, 07:05:23 pm
Hey, Wuba. Quit schmoozing here, and go sign up for BYOHF!Eh. I'm not really interested in games. Plus, I didn't want to choose 3 historical figures.
Post by: Heliman on March 26, 2011, 07:35:50 pm
You're diverting attention from yourself onto BD. It wasn't the most subtle thing in the world, and any sort of diversion is suspicious to me.Attention wise, the only person voting on me so far is Breadbocks, and Toaster. Toaster just voted to press a question on me and Breadbocks is the one who initially started turning on Bdthmag (it's not like I totally dismantled his argument or anything.)
The FoS is also there because you seem to defend, rather then attack. You also said at one point that a townie should only really defend if there's a bus forming on him.I'm not saying that you shouldn't defend yourself at all in the absence of a bandwagon. You just shouldn't "turtle" yourself, or defend totally, even to a point where your scum hunting stops being scum hunting because you're just attacking blindly to defend yourself (Egg's OMGUS without a reason would be a good example of this.)
It's perfectly fine to retort to a vote against you, but you should be scumhunting at the same time too. It may seem like I'm being very defensive right now, but this is actually because both of my top suspects are absent.
Oh, BTW, it's actually called a bandwagon, not a bus. A "bus" is described as the act of a scum distancing himself from other scum.
And also, sheepish? That's a little harsh, don't you think?Eh, used the adjective because you're the only player who doesn't have his vote cast right now.
Post by: breadbocks on March 26, 2011, 07:43:28 pm
Post by: Heliman on March 26, 2011, 07:51:20 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 26, 2011, 08:14:06 pm
Jim, If you were a cop, who would you investigate tonight?
Good question.
Toaster and Heliman. Toaster because I can never read him and because he's probably the most dangerous threat to the town if he's scum. Everyone else I can probably get decent reads on. Picking Toaster is to shore up some of my weakness at scumhunting, because I don't know what I should do to catch a scum Toaster. Being irrationally paranoid isn't an answer.
Heliman because he's taking a harder stance on Bdthemag's lurking than I think he needs to or is actually warranted. Not that I think he's being more aggressive than he should be, but it hasn't been that long since Bdthemag hasn't answered questions. I get the impression that Heliman is looking for scum targets for the sake of appearances instead of actually finding scum.
It's easy for scum to go after lurkers, because 1) they won't likely respond anytime soon, 2) it makes the scum look active, and 3) the scum can pretty much invent whatever reason they want to suspect the lurker.
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 26, 2011, 08:25:47 pm
Okay then, Toaster, you haven't been posting much. I understand it's due to RL reasons, but nobody's asked you much yet. So, as the game stands now (or rather, when you get around to answer this), who would you inspect as a Cop, and who would you protect as a Doctor?
Post by: Toaster on March 26, 2011, 10:33:20 pm
Crown: I'll give you a general answer now and a specific answer later. Generally, I would inspect someone whom I either couldn't read or strongly suspected but I didn't have a strong case on. I would protect whomever I thought was the most townlike, or someone who is confirmed town if it was possible to confirm in the setup.
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 26, 2011, 11:50:17 pm
I'm just sorta watching.My exact expression when I read that I was NK'd was ARGLEFAFRGLE DAMMIT WEB. Then AGAIN when I saw the Mafia chat.Your cop target: Not bad. I did that one game - investigate the IC. It would've helped if I wasn't NK'd.Lol. Yeah, I got you good, didn't I? I'm not even sure why I felt like killing you, either.
Back onto this mafia:
You could almost say that I'm a Mind Game Ship when it comes to my hunting.Hmmm - this wine tastes funny. You just admitted to being a goldmine of WIFOM :o
Firstly, he pressed BD on (partly) your push. You gave good, aggressive reasons on why to vote BD - and in his next post he's pressing BD instead of you. Plus, I was suspicious before, just not enough for a FoS - so I subconsciously thought you meant me as well.You're diverting attention from yourself onto BD. It wasn't the most subtle thing in the world, and any sort of diversion is suspicious to me.Attention wise, the only person voting on me so far is Breadbocks, and Toaster. Toaster just voted to press a question on me and Breadbocks is the one who initially started turning on Bdthmag (it's not like I totally dismantled his argument or anything.)The FoS is also there because you seem to defend, rather then attack. You also said at one point that a townie should only really defend if there's a bus forming on him.I'm not saying that you shouldn't defend yourself at all in the absence of a bandwagon. You just shouldn't "turtle" yourself, or defend totally, even to a point where your scum hunting stops being scum hunting because you're just attacking blindly to defend yourself (Egg's OMGUS without a reason would be a good example of this.)
It's perfectly fine to retort to a vote against you, but you should be scumhunting at the same time too. It may seem like I'm being very defensive right now, but this is actually because both of my top suspects are absent.
Oh, BTW, it's actually called a bandwagon, not a bus. A "bus" is described as the act of a scum distancing himself from other scum.And also, sheepish? That's a little harsh, don't you think?Eh, used the adjective because you're the only player who doesn't have his vote cast right now. asrasdg
Your second point is fine with me - thanks for the correction. I haven't played enough mafias to know the terms perfectly.
The sheep thing? I've decided the WIFOM thing is far too scummy for my taste. Vote Heliman. I never really got a good town vibe from you and admitting to WIFOM? Too far.
Now, I said this before:
Bdthemag should be active/online about now. If he hasn't posted by the next time I do, he's over-lurking.And he hasn't posted. BD, if you do not post in the 24 hours after this post is posted, I'm swapping my vote to you. Lurkers aren't good for town. Well, unless Heliman keeps being scummy. Then the vote stays on him.
I didn't "turn" on Bd. I said "Where the fuck are you?". It seems like you are trying to incriminate me for "turning" on somebody, implying I'm scum. You play a good subliminal game, Heli.Bread, and everyone, really. I urge you to look at his response: It's another mindgame. Would a townie have a reason to play mindgames on everyone?
Post by: Heliman on March 27, 2011, 12:37:51 am
You could almost say that I'm a Mind Game Ship when it comes to my hunting.Hmmm - this wine tastes funny. You just admitted to being a goldmine of WIFOM :oQuote from: Heliman
[/quoteLol, no, I'm not admitting to WIFOM, I'm just pissing Breadbocks off because he hates obscure Tv Tropes links.
Post by: Heliman on March 27, 2011, 12:38:25 am
Post by: breadbocks on March 27, 2011, 01:15:54 am
Also, why do you need me to be pissed off? So that in my rage I would make a mistake in my persecution of you, giving you scum the chance to pounce on me? Not a chance.
Heliman, you dig your hole deeper every post.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 27, 2011, 02:15:50 am
I can't follow the arguments. Summaries from everyone involved, please?
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 27, 2011, 02:19:36 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 27, 2011, 02:33:34 am
I mean, I would've gone on asking literally everybody for their reason for voting for Heliman. Even everybody who isn't voting him. Even Heliman's reason for voting Heliman.
Thanks, CrownofFire.
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 27, 2011, 02:35:30 am
Thanks for pointing that out to me.You're welcome. Really, where would you be without my help? I mean, you'd probably even ask yourself your reason for voting Heliman without me.
I mean, I would've gone on asking literally everybody for their reason for voting for Heliman. Even everybody who isn't voting him. Even Heliman's reason for voting Heliman.
Thanks, CrownofFire.
Post by: Heliman on March 27, 2011, 02:38:39 am
Also, why do you need me to be pissed off? So that in my rage I would make a mistake in my persecution of you, giving you scum the chance to pounce on me? Not a chance.Easy answer, an angry scum gives scumtells more often. It can be used as nothing but protown scumhunting, mostly because of all the RAEGVOTES (so very similar to your vote) that it causes.
In all honesty I haven't even been doing any mindgames, I'm not nearly good enough to put thoughts in your head. Like the Conspiracy theorists before you, you just got it in your head that I am, which, by the way, is hilarious. Even if you don't believe this, look at it this way: "mindgames," (excluding cyclical thinking mindgames like WIFOM,) are more or less the basis of the questioning process we've been doing for the last several pages, the good ones are set up to make the answerer give a response that can be used against them later, like a little magic bullet.
Speaking of magic bullets.
Hmmm - this wine tastes funny. You just admitted to being a goldmine of WIFOM :o
Have ever heard of wifoyifom before? probably not, It's quite a long abbreviation, it roughly translates to "Wine in front of you in front of me." It's quite the magic little phrase. As it refers to a situation where a scum tries to push WIFOM on players in order to slot them for lynching.
In that link, and in my post, there was absolutely no admittance of WIFOM in any way whatsoever. Which means You, clever little f*cking scum you, are not only blatantly misinterpreting my post, but also have been using my wonderful little abbbreviation here.
Bread, and everyone, really. I urge you to look at his response: It's another mindgame. Would a townie have a reason to play mindgames on everyone?
And by god you are using wifoyifom to it's fullest, seeing as you're trying to induce the rest of the town to lynch me.
Vote major_sephiroth, nice try at driving the bandwagon, I'm happy I was able to jeer you into it.
Post by: breadbocks on March 27, 2011, 02:54:06 am
Also, I don't think you understand WIFOM properly. It's not any generic diversion. It's THE thing that will screw you up. It is a choice between two choices which you have no way of guessing right, and choosing wrong could be your downfall.
Post by: Heliman on March 27, 2011, 03:14:31 am
As an SE, I'm entitled to say getting people pissed so they drop scumtells is a bad idea, because anyone can say dumbass things when annoyed.And that's when you look for scum tells, a town gets angry, a scum will fall back on progressively classic strategies to defend himself.
Also, I don't think you understand WIFOM properly. It's not any generic diversion. It's THE thing that will screw you up. It is a choice between two choices which you have no way of guessing right, and choosing wrong could be your downfall.I fully realize the concept of WIFOM and I meant every word of what I said.
Post by: Heliman on March 27, 2011, 03:15:36 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 27, 2011, 03:20:17 am
As an SE, I'm entitled to say getting people pissed so they drop scumtells is a bad idea, because anyone can say dumbass things when annoyed. Only scum would do it because they need a townie to get lynched for the day. Every time you try to defend yourself, you seem scummier and scummier. This is correct ICs, no?
Weeeeeell, now that you asked. I was going to let this go on for a little longer before imparting my advice. And after I understood what the cases are. Still not sure on that.
First things first: defending yourself isn't a crime. If that's all you do, that's scummy, but if you're defending yourself from accusation while you're still looking for scum, that's perfectly acceptable. Generally speaking though, unless you're creeping up in votes, you don't need to defend yourself vehemently. Answer all their questions, ask for their reasons. If you do start to creep up in votes, yeah, go ahead, start defending yourself more and more. But don't ever stop looking for scum. That is the one thing you should never ever stop doing.
About making people mad: deliberately making people mad as a scumhunting strategy I generally don't think is very effective, because all you'll succeed in doing is making them mad and whatever scum tells you think you get will probably be junk. But you do want to keep people off balance by asking them tough, probing questions, and it's not uncommon to use hostility to get what you want. You'll see it range from a little to a whole lot.
As a means to an end, getting people angry to get answers out of them isn't such a bad idea, but it should never be a goal unto itself. Keep the game friendly, even when you're screaming profanities at each other.
As an SE, I'm entitled to say getting people pissed so they drop scumtells is a bad idea, because anyone can say dumbass things when annoyed.And that's when you look for scum tells, a town gets angry, a scum will fall back on progressively classic strategies to defend himself.
I have no idea what you're talking about. What are these progressively classic strategies that scum use to defend themselves?
Post by: breadbocks on March 27, 2011, 03:27:02 am
Jim: I was talking about Heli's defense of himself in particular.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 27, 2011, 04:14:35 am
Crown, If you were scum and had an opportunity to bus your partner in the lategame (it will be MyLo if the next lynchee is town), when he was asking you not to, because he wants to be a team until the end, would you bus him to gain more credibility?
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 27, 2011, 04:18:11 am
Jim: I was talking about Heli's defense of himself in particular.
So you want me to tell you if I think you're on the right track or not?
If I thought you were on to anything I would be voting Heliman. But right now I have no idea what the hell the arguments are on either side.
Why do you think Heliman is suspicious, by the way?
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 27, 2011, 04:28:07 am
Alright, Jim gave a good answer, Unvote.It depends on the current situation. If I wasn't in any danger of being voted, then I wouldn't see any reason to. But I'm assuming that I would need to in this situation, so yes, I would. There's really no reason to keep a team completely together, regardless if you're Town or scum. I mean, it certainly helps to have more of your team alive, but there is no "flawless victory" in Mafia.
Crown, If you were scum and had an opportunity to bus your partner in the lategame (it will be MyLo if the next lynchee is town), when he was asking you not to, because he wants to be a team until the end, would you bus him to gain more credibility?
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 27, 2011, 05:57:16 am
First off, so sorry that I took a post literally. I thought that's what we do here.You could almost say that I'm a Mind Game Ship when it comes to my hunting.Hmmm - this wine tastes funny. You just admitted to being a goldmine of WIFOM :oQuote from: HelimanLol, no, I'm not admitting to WIFOM, I'm just pissing Breadbocks off because he hates obscure Tv Tropes links.
Well. I'll say the little things first:Also, why do you need me to be pissed off? So that in my rage I would make a mistake in my persecution of you, giving you scum the chance to pounce on me? Not a chance.Easy answer, an angry scum gives scumtells more often. It can be used as nothing but protown scumhunting, mostly because of all the RAEGVOTES (so very similar to your vote) that it causes.
In all honesty I haven't even been doing any mindgames, I'm not nearly good enough to put thoughts in your head. Like the Conspiracy theorists before you, you just got it in your head that I am, which, by the way, is hilarious. Even if you don't believe this, look at it this way: "mindgames," (excluding cyclical thinking mindgames like WIFOM,) are more or less the basis of the questioning process we've been doing for the last several pages, the good ones are set up to make the answerer give a response that can be used against them later, like a little magic bullet.
Speaking of magic bullets.Hmmm - this wine tastes funny. You just admitted to being a goldmine of WIFOM :oHave ever heard of wifoyifom before? probably not, It's quite a long abbreviation, it roughly translates to "Wine in front of you in front of me." It's quite the magic little phrase. As it refers to a situation where a scum tries to push WIFOM on players in order to slot them for lynching.
In that link, and in my post, there was absolutely no admittance of WIFOM in any way whatsoever. Which means You, clever little f*cking scum you, are not only blatantly misinterpreting my post, but also have been using my wonderful little abbbreviation here.Bread, and everyone, really. I urge you to look at his response: It's another mindgame. Would a townie have a reason to play mindgames on everyone?And by god you are using wifoyifom to it's fullest, seeing as you're trying to induce the rest of the town to lynch me.
Vote major_sephiroth, nice try at driving the bandwagon, I'm happy I was able to jeer you into it.
The last quote you have on me was supposed to get people to look at you and decide by themselves - if someone voted you for my reasons alone, I'd FoS them, at the very least.
Now - it seems I misinterpreted my main evidence post here Heliman. I still think you're scum, but there's no solid case.
Onto your mindgames thing. It's easy. I mean, I got you to vote for TKoE, didn't I? And just by using the word 'turning' in your earlier post, Bread seems to betray BD by pressuring him. That's the only one I can spot at the moment.
Onto the bad part. Most of my attack was based on you saying you're a goldmine of WIFOM - and that's apparently a misinterpretation. An attack without base is crap - and I think you've had enough pressure from me. I think you're scum, but until I can convince the town of that, Unvote. You've still got my FoS to keep you company though, Heliman. To clarify - I think he's scum - I just have no evidence, and if I push my reasoning further, it's going to hurt me, not him. If you want to attack him, by all means - go for it. Just don't quote me word for word.
Onto Bread:
As an SE, I'm entitled to say getting people pissed so they drop scumtells is a bad idea, because anyone can say dumbass things when annoyed. Only scum would do it because they need a townie to get lynched for the day. Every time you try to defend yourself, you seem scummier and scummier. This is correct ICs, no?Simply? No, no and no. A angry scum drops more scumtells than a similarly angry town, if they're of the same skill. Yes, anyone can say dumbass things when annoyed - but dumbass things tend not to be scumtells. Town needs to do it to find scum, and while scum can do it, it only works on people who react strongly, like you, and to a slightly lesser extent, me. Defending often is not a scumtell either - it just means you're attacked more often and thus NEED to defend yourself. It's HOW they defend that can be a scumtell. Not an IC, so I could be wrong here. Also, he knows WIFOM enough to know WIFOYIFOM.
Also, I don't think you understand WIFOM properly. It's not any generic diversion. It's THE thing that will screw you up. It is a choice between two choices which you have no way of guessing right, and choosing wrong could be your downfall.
Also bread - my attack on Heli has fallen flat. If you want to keep your vote on him - I suggest you tell Jim and the rest of us why, without re-using my words.
Also Jim, look at my last post and this one for my attack on Heli. It's not the most sound one. Also also, I think he means the scum will reliably use WIFOM and other known and limited tactics, thus making them identifiable.
PRE-POST EDIT: I feel I should elaborate on my mindgame. I thought TKoE was scum. Overreacting and whatnot - but I didn't want to vote him on that, as it'd be a blatant bandwagon. I knew I could convince someone to vote him with enough questions, and I happened to get Heli with my first one. So Heli, I wasn't as sheepish as you thought.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 27, 2011, 07:29:32 am
Supercharazad, asking lots of hypothetical questions are nice, but are you narrowing down your list of suspects any?
Yes. I'm going slowly down the list of people, and those with thr worst answers get more questions.
Crown your answer was alright, Unvote.
Heliman, list every player, in order of scumminess (in your eyes), with the scummiest at the top.
Post by: webadict on March 27, 2011, 08:04:00 am
I'm not in the game, but this isn't necessarily true, since acting like an angry town would be something a scum might do.As an SE, I'm entitled to say getting people pissed so they drop scumtells is a bad idea, because anyone can say dumbass things when annoyed.And that's when you look for scum tells, a town gets angry, a scum will fall back on progressively classic strategies to defend himself.
If a scum is good enough, they will act like town, so this fails logic. That's like saying scum always lies, which is nonsense, since telling the truth is actually a very, VERY good way to look town. The only part a scum has to lie about is whether they're scum.
The point is you have to think whether this is something someone would do as only town, as town and scum, or as only scum. Be in their position. Don't constrain yourself to think in a limited fashion. There is more to being scum than scumtells. The key is to familiar with them.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 27, 2011, 10:56:07 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 27, 2011, 02:09:38 pm
Supercharazad, asking lots of hypothetical questions are nice, but are you narrowing down your list of suspects any?
Yes. I'm going slowly down the list of people, and those with thr worst answers get more questions.
Okay.
But what about what's happened in the game so far? What do you think of that?
Also Jim, look at my last post and this one for my attack on Heli. It's not the most sound one. Also also, I think he means the scum will reliably use WIFOM and other known and limited tactics, thus making them identifiable.
But you just said you don't have a case so why should I bother going back to reread it? And I did and I still don't have a clue what you were trying to get at.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 27, 2011, 02:33:01 pm
Supercharazad, asking lots of hypothetical questions are nice, but are you narrowing down your list of suspects any?
Yes. I'm going slowly down the list of people, and those with thr worst answers get more questions.
Okay.
But what about what's happened in the game so far? What do you think of that?
I think TKoE needs to learn that mafia requires some time put into it, and that Breadbock seems suspicious, I don't know why, there's just something... bothering about him.
Post by: breadbocks on March 27, 2011, 02:56:29 pm
I am progressively realizing I phrased that post poorer and poorer. I was asking about whether I was right about relying on getting people pissed for scumtells was less than effective.Jim: I was talking about Heli's defense of himself in particular.
So you want me to tell you if I think you're on the right track or not?
If I thought you were on to anything I would be voting Heliman. But right now I have no idea what the hell the arguments are on either side.
Why do you think Heliman is suspicious, by the way?
As for arguments, I'll skim through, and track down what it was that flipped the scum trigger in my brain.
Post by: Heliman on March 27, 2011, 04:07:19 pm
I have no idea what you're talking about. What are these progressively classic strategies that scum use to defend themselves?While normally I would say that if I said them, Scum would automatically be wary of me looking looking for them, but since I've been totally clear on my strategies from the beginning, These are the things I'm looking for an aggravated scum to do Day 1 (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=JEEP%27s_Tells_for_Finding_Mafia)(note, I'm particularly referring to the Day one category of this post. I'm also looking for other tells too, like players becoming enraged or commentless bandwagoneering)
But you just said you don't have a case so why should I bother going back to reread it? And I did and I still don't have a clue what you were trying to get at.He's probably referring to the question you asked me, that I answered.
The point is you have to think whether this is something someone would do as only town, as town and scum, or as only scum. Be in their position. Don't constrain yourself to think in a limited fashion. There is more to being scum than scumtells. The key is to familiar with them.That's the issue I'm having though, this is my first game, so I don't know anything about a scum's mindset. For all my aggressive posting, I'm still one of the biggest greenhorns in this game. I'm trying not to think linearly, but I don't know what it's like to be a scum. Research, speculation, and spectating can only tell me so much in this respect.
If you want, you can PM me more about this if you feel so inclined, as I would be very eager to hear how you scum hunt, but not here, it would be best not to use up page space with touchy-feely stuff.
You mean the question you likely posed in your head, but then realized would incriminate you further so you never posted it? Yeeeeeah... Mind posing it now, or forever hold your peace? Because there is no other question you have aimed at me.Ah-hah, you're have me on that count. I did remove it. I would have been "How exactly would anger give scum the chance to pounce on you?" but I edited out that question when I found the hole in Major's logic.
Seeing as that was all last night, I'm not entirely sure why I prompted you to answer it either, because you did answer it. I still disagree with your answer, but you did answer it.
Heliman, list every player, in order of scumminess (in your eyes), with the scummiest at the top.Hmmm, Scumminess?
major_sephiroth (perceived scumtell, still pursuing)
Bdthemag (Lurking with no reason, while being active elsewhere)
The King of Eggs (3 day vacation, incredibly suspicious manner of posting)
Breadbocks (seems to be coming on a little bandwagony with seph, but could easily be considered as normal scum hunting.)
Jim Groovester (still wary, but there's nothing that I could scream at.)
Supercharazard<-->Toaster<-->CrownofFire (equal level of suspicion, because you're all playing similarly so far: shorter sized posts, usually questioning an individual person and/or answering a question asked by someone else.)
The ICs would probably be higher in this list, but that would be because of my fear of their skill rather than me thinking they're scummy.
Ok, questions posed toward me look squared away, now it's time for hunting. Don't you back off just yet Seph, I'm not done with you yet.
Well. I'll say the little things first:A question to the entire forum "to decide for themselves" after a good sized and very accusatory post can only be regarded as a call to form a bandwagon, don't try playing it off as something less severe, it is what it is.
The last quote you have on me was supposed to get people to look at you and decide by themselves - if someone voted you for my reasons alone.
I'd FoS them, at the very least.A player Bandwagoning is always, at the very least, slightly suspicious. Because of this, anyone who jumps on a bandwagon always adds their two cents, so in all liklihood you would have FoS'd no one.
Now - it seems I misinterpreted my main evidence post here Heliman. I still think you're scum, but there's no solid case.While I'm fully willing to asdf about your apparent mindgames later, this is still a load of scumshit. Why? You're making a serious contradiction by admitting this. Your statement just now proves that the question you asked earlier was a blatant lie made to bandwagon the most active townie.
Onto your mindgames thing. It's easy. I mean, I got you to vote for TKoE, didn't I? And just by using the word 'turning' in your earlier post, Bread seems to betray BD by pressuring him. That's the only one I can spot at the moment.
...
PRE-POST EDIT: I feel I should elaborate on my mindgame. I thought TKoE was scum. Overreacting and whatnot - but I didn't want to vote him on that, as it'd be a blatant bandwagon. I knew I could convince someone to vote him with enough questions, and I happened to get Heli with my first one. So Heli, I wasn't as sheepish as you thought.
Bread, and everyone, really. I urge you to look at his response: It's another mindgame. Would a townie have a reason to play mindgames on everyone?If you don't know why a townie would play a mindgame, Then there is no reason that you would make one in the first place. Any proper town never lies, especially when under heat. It's one thing to play to play covertly, but it's another thing to make a total lie about how you play. Only a scum, and according to Wuba an inexperienced scum at that, would ever have any reason to lie when scum-hunting. You are that scum.
The vote stays, and anyone else willing to comment on this fiasco is welcome.
Post by: breadbocks on March 27, 2011, 04:37:21 pm
Post by: Heliman on March 27, 2011, 05:05:55 pm
Post by: breadbocks on March 27, 2011, 06:20:52 pm
Spoiler: Post #1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Post #2 (click to show/hide)
but it certainly doesn't help the case.Spoiler: #3 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: #4 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: #5 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: #6 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: 7 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: 8 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: 9 (click to show/hide)
Heliman, you shall rot as scum forever more.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 27, 2011, 06:32:49 pm
I have no idea what you're talking about. What are these progressively classic strategies that scum use to defend themselves?While normally I would say that if I said them, Scum would automatically be wary of me looking looking for them, but since I've been totally clear on my strategies from the beginning, These are the things I'm looking for an aggravated scum to do Day 1 (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=JEEP%27s_Tells_for_Finding_Mafia)(note, I'm particularly referring to the Day one category of this post. I'm also looking for other tells too, like players becoming enraged or commentless bandwagoneering)
You should just ignore and forget any and every guide you see because I'm a better resource and you're going to screw it up somehow anyway, like I'm pretty sure you already have. Hence why I have no idea what the fuck anybody is talking about.
Just learn what is and what is not a scumtell naturally.
But you just said you don't have a case so why should I bother going back to reread it? And I did and I still don't have a clue what you were trying to get at.He's probably referring to the question you asked me, that I answered.
If I wanted you to answer questions I directed at major_sephiroth I would've asked you to.
Well. I'll say the little things first:A question to the entire forum "to decide for themselves" after a good sized and very accusatory post can only be regarded as a call to form a bandwagon, don't try playing it off as something less severe, it is what it is.
The last quote you have on me was supposed to get people to look at you and decide by themselves - if someone voted you for my reasons alone.
You're being dumb, stop it.
You're forgetting that the whole point of scumhunting is to bring a player's scumminess to light so that they will hopefully be lynched. Making these points visible and trying to convince everybody that the player is scum is exactly what you're supposed to be doing.
You're also forgetting how players are lynched: by majority vote. People voting you doesn't automatically make it a bandwagon. It's only if they do it reasonlessly or add nothing to other people's reasons. And even then, sometimes people just agree that a player is scummy.
So how about you stop attacking major_sephiroth for the method of how he's trying to get you lynched, and instead, attack him for the why. Because he's doing exactly what he's supposed to.
And everybody shut the fuck up about mindgames. You're all wrong about them and you all look stupid talking about them and you all look even dumber trying to do them.
I think I need exposit no more.
You're being dumb, stop it.
How about you condense what makes Heliman scummy into a single sentence. Find the best points, bring them to light. If you can't do that, then you're not going to convince anybody to vote for him. Case in point: I'm not reading through that list of posts to find badly formatted, single line accusations that don't really tell me anything.
It's scummy and completely worthless and useless to say that every post a player did is scummy.
Try again.
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 27, 2011, 07:01:02 pm
I'll summarise. Heli called himself a Mind Game Ship and linked to TvTropes. The mind game ship is someone who plays mindgames and messes with everyones head, etc. I used that as the basis of my arguement - but he wasn't serious about it and was only trying to annoy breadbocks. I can't vote on nothing but 'he seems scummy'.Also Jim, look at my last post and this one for my attack on Heli. It's not the most sound one. Also also, I think he means the scum will reliably use WIFOM and other known and limited tactics, thus making them identifiable.
But you just said you don't have a case so why should I bother going back to reread it? And I did and I still don't have a clue what you were trying to get at.
TKoE is on an official leave of absence. While he was here he participated.Supercharazad, asking lots of hypothetical questions are nice, but are you narrowing down your list of suspects any?
Yes. I'm going slowly down the list of people, and those with thr worst answers get more questions.
Okay.
But what about what's happened in the game so far? What do you think of that?
I think TKoE needs to learn that mafia requires some time put into it, and that Breadbock seems suspicious, I don't know why, there's just something... bothering about him.
I'm going to use TKoE's Idea. Green text is my comments.
Ok, questions posed toward me look squared away, now it's time for hunting. Don't you back off just yet Seph, I'm not done with you yet.
I'm still going to watch you and call you up if I find a scumtell or a hole in logic.Well. I'll say the little things first:A question to the entire forum "to decide for themselves" after a good sized and very accusatory post can only be regarded as a call to form a bandwagon, don't try playing it off as something less severe, it is what it is.
The last quote you have on me was supposed to get people to look at you and decide by themselves - if someone voted you for my reasons alone.
It is what it is, yes. It was said poorly, thus is something pretty incriminating. I was saying what it was supposed to be - not what it was.I'd FoS them, at the very least.A player Bandwagoning is always, at the very least, slightly suspicious. Because of this, anyone who jumps on a bandwagon always adds their two cents, so in all liklihood you would have FoS'd no one.
You've slightly misunderstood. I wouldn't just look for people adding nothing, I'd look for people using arguements too similar to mine, that sort of thing.Now - it seems I misinterpreted my main evidence post here Heliman. I still think you're scum, but there's no solid case.While I'm fully willing to asdf about your apparent mindgames later, this is still a load of scumshit. Why? You're making a serious contradiction by admitting this. Your statement just now proves that the question you asked earlier was a blatant lie made to bandwagon the most active townie.
Onto your mindgames thing. It's easy. I mean, I got you to vote for TKoE, didn't I? And just by using the word 'turning' in your earlier post, Bread seems to betray BD by pressuring him. That's the only one I can spot at the moment.
...
PRE-POST EDIT: I feel I should elaborate on my mindgame. I thought TKoE was scum. Overreacting and whatnot - but I didn't want to vote him on that, as it'd be a blatant bandwagon. I knew I could convince someone to vote him with enough questions, and I happened to get Heli with my first one. So Heli, I wasn't as sheepish as you thought.
If I was after a bandwagon, I would try to get more than one person. I had just asked him a bunch of questions, and he overreacted - that's all the evidence I had. I thought that it wasn't enough to warrant a vote. I thought that another person would be able to find more evidence, and have a stronger case than I could.Bread, and everyone, really. I urge you to look at his response: It's another mindgame. Would a townie have a reason to play mindgames on everyone?If you don't know why a townie would play a mindgame, Then there is no reason that you would make one in the first place. Any proper town never lies, especially when under heat. It's one thing to play to play covertly, but it's another thing to make a total lie about how you play. Only a scum, and according to Wuba an inexperienced scum at that, would ever have any reason to lie when scum-hunting. You are that scum.
For why, look a bit above. Also when I said that, it slipped my mind that I'd played a mindgame. The reasoning is above - if you don't like it, question it or vote more or something. Also, that line as poorly thought out as it was - one more 'mistake' in it shouldn't be too hard to believe.
The vote stays, and anyone else willing to comment on this fiasco is welcome.
I'm not going to challenge that vote - it's pretty damn sound. Also, yes, everyone, comment on these proceedings.
Onto people that aren't Heliman.
I posted in Bdthemag's RTD, to watch it and to get him in here. Until he gets back into this mafia, Bdthemag.
Bread - I'll be eagerly waiting for those arguements.
Superchar - You've played mafia recently, you know what a scumtell is, I've dropped plenty. You having no evidence either means you're incapable of scumhunting or you're a liar. I'm heavily leaning towards the second. You can stop active lurking now and participate, m'kay?
Toaster - I'll mostly assume you've been busy, but can I get you to comment on these proceedings? (As a player, moreso than an IC)
And everyone - Heliman and I aren't the only players here. Pressure people. Form your own walls of text - conversation is good!
Ninja'd Edit:
Onto Bread:
Post 1: Yeah an RVS.
Post 2: He saw something suspicious and questioned it. Thoroughly. That deserves praise, not rolled eyeballs.
Post 3: The "U MAD?" has been explained. I put the idea in his head for that. It was also a pressuring vote, to see if he got angrier. He doesn't skip over Jim, look at the last section.
Post 4: The back and forth between him and Jim: His reason for the FoS gets taken out from under his feet - leaving him nowhere to go, hence "I don't know what to say." Also in there, he is not over-defending. He was questioned that many times, so he answered that many times.
Post 5: You're wrong. It's WIFOM. It's WIFOM out the wazoo, actually. I'm going to propose a scenario: Person A and Person B are questioning each other. Person C is scum. There's other town around. Person A then turns his attention to Person C. Person C ends up lynched. The scum COULD NK Person A - he's a good scumhunter. But they NK Person B. The remaining scum say "why wasn't Person A NK'd? He's the best scumhunter" and "Person A got Person B NK'd!". Person A calls them out as scum. The town has to decide whether the scum would simply bus an ally, (like the scum are claiming) or that thw scum has a plan, (that Person A is right). There's no evidence either way, and it's down to speculation.
Wow that was long.
Post 6: Ever think that Heli was suspicious of BD BEFORE he said as such? Also, his main scumpick goes MIA, so he has to start on a new person. You give him that person to start on - and he pressures.
Post 7: Caution is a scumtell. Recklessness is a town tell. This is not guaranteed however, as I'm always cautious, for example. Being cautious as to where your vote goes is scummy play. Hell, I'm trying to be more aggressive and I still don't vote everywhere.
Post 8: The "King" of mafia said it's unreliable. And IIRC, that he think's it's not the best method. He didn't say the method was horrible and never to use it. He wants you mad right? And he has it.
Post 9: You claim he is only using a list of scumtells - I daresay all his arguements against me aren't scumtells alone.
I don't think these are too strong.. I tried to read these as if bread was town, but they still aren't too strong.
I got ninja'd 3 times when typing this. Go me.
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 27, 2011, 07:02:34 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on March 27, 2011, 07:03:57 pm
EBWOP: (If that's the right acronym) Also while I was typing that, BD made a whole turn in his RTD. It seems he doesn't want to play.I pmed LNC and said im doing to many forum games at the moment and I want to quit, sorry folks.
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 27, 2011, 07:06:58 pm
If you keep the RTD up, i'll be happy. It's going well.EBWOP: (If that's the right acronym) Also while I was typing that, BD made a whole turn in his RTD. It seems he doesn't want to play.I pmed LNC and said im doing to many forum games at the moment and I want to quit, sorry folks.
In other news, Unvote.
Post by: Bdthemag on March 27, 2011, 07:09:05 pm
I will, im suprised people think that its funny since most people don't like my sense of humor, but sorry again about quiting.If you keep the RTD up, i'll be happy. It's going well.EBWOP: (If that's the right acronym) Also while I was typing that, BD made a whole turn in his RTD. It seems he doesn't want to play.I pmed LNC and said im doing to many forum games at the moment and I want to quit, sorry folks.
In other news, Unvote.
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 27, 2011, 07:14:30 pm
There are few islanders as-is anyways, and seeing as each person can hold the key to escape you all resolve to help the afflicted. He is dragged to the shade and leaf-fulls of cool water is poured on him.
Meanwhile, the feud rages on.
bdthemag is seeking a replacement.
In the future, please do not talk about ongoing mafia games elsewhere. Also, a votecount will be up sometime tomorrow, probably.
Post by: breadbocks on March 27, 2011, 08:01:15 pm
You want it short and simple? Fine.
Heliman is scum who thinks that if he's the one to point certain fingers, those same fingers can't be pointed back.
Seph: If you don't mind, I'll reply to those in the morning. As-is, I'm too exhausted for Mafia right now, and I've school tomorrow.
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 27, 2011, 08:04:02 pm
I'll have more to say later. Have to read back a bit...
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 27, 2011, 08:04:36 pm
Heliman is scum who thinks that if he's the one to point certain fingers, those same fingers can't be pointed back.
That tells me absolutely nothing.
Post by: Heliman on March 27, 2011, 09:36:54 pm
So how about you stop attacking major_sephiroth for the method of how he's trying to get you lynched, and instead, attack him for the why. Because he's doing exactly what he's supposed to.Seeing as I have received yet another slap in the nuts by Jim, it seems I have no case. No, I don't know why Major would try to lynch me if he was scum. If he did, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, the resulting mislynch would only have rebounded on him day two, the same going for bread.
Unvote major_sephiroth
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 27, 2011, 09:41:07 pm
Looking back, I find this quite interesting.
It was really a very weak reason to go after Heliman like that. breadbocks seems to be single-mindedly going after Heliman.It's one thing to continue an argument while pursuing others. It's odd at the least to single-mindedly pursue one person while ignoring the rest in this game.Bread, I think it is a bit impossible to be "single-mindedly" pursuing someone when I have only made 6 posts(including this one) since the start of the game and accused 3 players in the process, that’s literally one new person every two posts.
So overall, breadbocks seems to be chasing after Heliman quite a bit, and he's just going after major_sephiroth, who appears to be kind of jumping between the other two. I'm willing to bet that only one out of these three is scum, if any. Though I do have to say that I'm getting a bit of a town vibe from major_sephiroth. (I'm going to stop that bolding, because it's really annoying to do)
Supercharazard, on the other hand, hasn't really done much of anything except asking and answering a few random questions here and there. His last post indicates suspicion about breadbocks, but with no reasons stated why that is. Why is it that you're not doing anything but asking random hypothetical questions? In my eyes, that'd be seen as active lurking, not exactly something that you'd want to do.
PPE: Heliman, Jim is here to help us. He's giving you advice, not telling you how to vote. Keep voting major_sephiroth if you must, but remember you're trying to convince the rest of us.
Post by: Heliman on March 27, 2011, 10:01:07 pm
PPE: Heliman, Jim is here to help us. He's giving you advice, not telling you how to vote. Keep voting major_sephiroth if you must, but remember you're trying to convince the rest of us.Jim's advice is more of the straw that broke the camel's back.
Wuba told me that I should be able to differentiate between a lying scum and a lying town, and townies tend to make the more blatant mistakes. I'm still have a FoS on seph, but it happens. Also, while he's still wary of me too, He's also totally changed his position towards me, abating breadbock's flow of rage would be contradictory to what a Scum Seph would want out of this.
Basically, I'm just I'm less certain that he's scum now and more certain that I just got worked up over his contradiction then I was before.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 27, 2011, 10:13:44 pm
So how about you stop attacking major_sephiroth for the method of how he's trying to get you lynched, and instead, attack him for the why. Because he's doing exactly what he's supposed to.Seeing as I have received yet another slap in the nuts by Jim, it seems I have no case. No, I don't know why Major would try to lynch me if he was scum. If he did, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, the resulting mislynch would only have rebounded on him day two, the same going for bread.
Unvote major_sephiroth
Nope. Mislynching townies is not really that big of a deal. It highly depends on the reasons why the lynch went through though. If the reasons were good, there's pretty much no backfire.
I've said before (not in this game, but another) that lynches are partly investigatory, since it's the town's only recourse to get surefire information. Lynching suspects, even if they're mislynches, narrow down the list of suspects to who the scum actually are.
This is why it's important that every member of the their town does their part to not make themselves a suspect (by scumhunting, nothing else); if the town spends all their time lynching scummy looking town they'll lose the game.
Wuba told me that I should be able to differentiate between a lying scum and a lying town, and townies tend to make the more blatant mistakes.
I think all the assumptions you're making are holding your scumhunting back.
Mistakes aren't the exclusive purview of the town.
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 28, 2011, 01:47:51 am
In the future, please do not talk about ongoing mafia games elsewhere. Also, a votecount will be up sometime tomorrow, probably.Firstly, sorry about that. I'll officially ask for a prod or something in future, is that the right thing?
Jim: I didn't say every post was scummy, nor that everything he did was scummy.Reply to this too:
You want it short and simple? Fine.
Heliman is scum who thinks that if he's the one to point certain fingers, those same fingers can't be pointed back.
Seph: If you don't mind, I'll reply to those in the morning. As-is, I'm too exhausted for Mafia right now, and I've school tomorrow.
How did you go from your arguements to that line? And if he thought that, he would've expected me to back down alot sooner, and it seems that he didn't expect me to back down or a while.
I think someone somewhere said that lynching a townie is a nulltell, because townies can simply be wrong. So it's not a certainty that it'd come back to haunt the lyncher. Though, your lynch likely would, because of wifyifom, and all the crap surrounding it.So how about you stop attacking major_sephiroth for the method of how he's trying to get you lynched, and instead, attack him for the why. Because he's doing exactly what he's supposed to.Seeing as I have received yet another slap in the nuts by Jim, it seems I have no case. No, I don't know why Major would try to lynch me if he was scum. If he did, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, the resulting mislynch would only have rebounded on him day two, the same going for bread.
Unvote major_sephiroth
First of all, Unvote. I may have forgotten about my vote on Toaster. And now that TKoE is gone, I'm going to have to find someone else to chase after :P
Looking back, I find this quite interesting.It was really a very weak reason to go after Heliman like that. breadbocks seems to be single-mindedly going after Heliman.It's one thing to continue an argument while pursuing others. It's odd at the least to single-mindedly pursue one person while ignoring the rest in this game.Bread, I think it is a bit impossible to be "single-mindedly" pursuing someone when I have only made 6 posts(including this one) since the start of the game and accused 3 players in the process, that’s literally one new person every two posts.
So overall, breadbocks seems to be chasing after Heliman quite a bit, and he's just going after major_sephiroth, who appears to be kind of jumping between the other two. I'm willing to bet that only one out of these three is scum, if any. Though I do have to say that I'm getting a bit of a town vibe from major_sephiroth. (I'm going to stop that bolding, because it's really annoying to do)
Supercharazard, on the other hand, hasn't really done much of anything except asking and answering a few random questions here and there. His last post indicates suspicion about breadbocks, but with no reasons stated why that is. Why is it that you're not doing anything but asking random hypothetical questions? In my eyes, that'd be seen as active lurking, not exactly something that you'd want to do.
PPE: Heliman, Jim is here to help us. He's giving you advice, not telling you how to vote. Keep voting major_sephiroth if you must, but remember you're trying to convince the rest of us.
Now that you bring it up, I see it. Bread, why have you gone after just Heliman? Also, why did you only provide reasons when asked to, instead of giving reasons when your actions are taken?
I also agree on Superchar's active lurking, as I've mentioned before.
Also keep bolding it's useful for everyone else!
I look so scummy doing this but I gotta add my 2 cents. If I were scum I'd know whether you were town or not - being town is a reason to want someone lynched for scum, but it isn't enough to get them lynched. I could be wrong though.So how about you stop attacking major_sephiroth for the method of how he's trying to get you lynched, and instead, attack him for the why. Because he's doing exactly what he's supposed to.Seeing as I have received yet another slap in the nuts by Jim, it seems I have no case. No, I don't know why Major would try to lynch me if he was scum. If he did, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, the resulting mislynch would only have rebounded on him day two, the same going for bread.
Unvote major_sephiroth
Post by: The King of Eggs on March 28, 2011, 09:10:17 am
I also hate this:
Mod: v/la till 12:00AM the 31st GMT +10
You might need to replace me if thats too long.
Very sorry all.
The King of Eggs
Post by: Toaster on March 28, 2011, 10:47:30 am
I voted Heliman because he seemed off to me in a vague in undefined way. I wanted to hear more from him, so I combined a RV and pressure vote, something I like to do midday D1 when I'm not sure. [I prefer to think of it as "semi-random vote stage," as I almost never use complete randomness to target my RVs.] Reading it back over (and reading further) my suspicion has faded, so I'll go ahead and unvote Heliman.
Heliman:
Heliman, I want to pick your brain next. What do you think the value is of a townie convincing someone else that he is indeed town-aligned? How much self-defense do you think is too much?The value of a townie convincing someone else of his alignment is obvious and two pronged: it prevents the town from wasting a day on a bum lead and improves the chances that the next person they target will be a scum.
As for the second question, it depends on the situation. The way I see it, as long as a bandwagon isn't forming against you there's no real reason that you should start to turtle. Votes against players tend to fall lazily like snow and blow away easily like dust in the wind, provided they have nothing to latch onto. However, if there is a bandwagon barreling toward my tender townie asshole, then I don't think there's such a thing as too much self-defense, because Town would be wasting a whole day if I didn't defend properly.
Fairly good responses. Here's my IC-opinion on self defense: Self defense is fine as long as it doesn't get in the way of your scum hunting. If you focus on defense exclusively, you're not helping out. Truly, the best defense is a good offense- if you can bring a convincing case on your target, people will stop voting you and start voting your target.
With regards to this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2117471#msg2117471), do you not think you can sufficiently pressure someone without voting them? What if you were going after two people at once?
Major:
Putting my two cents in here. It does more than that - it may increase the townie's chance of being NK'd. It also allows the scum to pull out all sorts of WIFOM regarding the townie.Heliman, I want to pick your brain next. What do you think the value is of a townie convincing someone else that he is indeed town-aligned? How much self-defense do you think is too much?The value of a townie convincing someone else of his alignment is obvious and two pronged: it prevents the town from wasting a day on a bum lead and improves the chances that the next person they target will be a scum.
Could you give an example here? I'm not sure what you mean.
Also, tell me your opinion on this statement: The best thing a vanilla townie can do is convince scum they are the best NK target.
Now, I said this before:Bdthemag should be active/online about now. If he hasn't posted by the next time I do, he's over-lurking.And he hasn't posted. BD, if you do not post in the 24 hours after this post is posted, I'm swapping my vote to you. Lurkers aren't good for town. Well, unless Heliman keeps being scummy. Then the vote stays on him.
I don't like this. It looks like you're setting yourself up to move your vote onto a target of convenience later here, and only scum wants convenient targets.
Onto the bad part. Most of my attack was based on you saying you're a goldmine of WIFOM - and that's apparently a misinterpretation. An attack without base is crap - and I think you've had enough pressure from me. I think you're scum, but until I can convince the town of that, Unvote. You've still got my FoS to keep you company though, Heliman. To clarify - I think he's scum - I just have no evidence, and if I push my reasoning further, it's going to hurt me, not him. If you want to attack him, by all means - go for it. Just don't quote me word for word.
--SNIP--
PRE-POST EDIT: I feel I should elaborate on my mindgame. I thought TKoE was scum. Overreacting and whatnot - but I didn't want to vote him on that, as it'd be a blatant bandwagon. I knew I could convince someone to vote him with enough questions, and I happened to get Heli with my first one. So Heli, I wasn't as sheepish as you thought.
This is very, very weak. You say you think he's scum, but you're afraid of how the attack will make you look so you drop it. Basically, you just admitted you're more interested in self-preservation than finding scum, which is very scummy. Scum want to avoid scum tells. Town wants to hang scum, and if they vote in a way that might be bandwagonny, so be it- the important thing is that you get your vote on scum.
If you vote someone you find scummy and you clearly articulate your reasons, no one is going to call it a bandwagon.
This post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2121858#msg2121858) is also very questionable. Why are you going to great lengths to defend Heliman, someone whom very recently you were voting? You're doing it more here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2122745#msg2122745).
Breadbocks: You need to be more specific when you make statements like this one:
If he doesn't post here soon, and explain the shit, you will be downgraded to a HoS, and he will get my vote.
Bdthmag, you walk a very fine line.
Who are "he" and "you?" Why is BD walking a fine line?
This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2121740#msg2121740) is half of a really good post. To present a very solid case on someone, you need to cite several things they've done you perceive as scummy (the half you did) and then explain point-by-point why each one is scummy (the half you didn't do.) Just quoting his posts alone isn't helpful- we can read the originals already. You need to explain why they are scummy, and then give a concise summary. Try again and explain yourself.
Crown: I promised you a more specific answer, so here it is:
Right now, if Major didn't hang, I'd investigate him. If he did and flipped scum, I'd be extremely suspicious of Heliman (due to association [Major keeps defending him]), so I'd go with him. If he flipped town... probably someone I had no read on, like Jim or King of Eggs. As doc, I'd probably protect Jim- I figure new scum would be more likely to go after the ICs as the perceived largest threats.
Question here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2122371#msg2122371): You say one of the three of Breadbocks, Heliman, and MajorS must be scum, which is fine. You then vote Super for lurking and don't question any of the first three. This does not follow. You need to do something to decide if any of those first three are scum if you think it is one of them. How are you planning to figure out which one it is?
Super:
I think TKoE needs to learn that mafia requires some time put into it, and that Breadbock seems suspicious, I don't know why, there's just something... bothering about him.
This is the point you start questioning Breadbocks to clear or confirm your suspicion of him.
In conclusion, Major Sephiroth is the most scummy right now for reasons cited above. I believe I addressed everything to me, but if I missed something, smack me on the head and link/quote it.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 28, 2011, 11:25:25 am
Post by: webadict on March 28, 2011, 11:43:24 am
Breadbocks, If you were a mafia roleblocker, who would you target tonight?I'd like to point out that these are RVS style questions, which you should be moving away from at this point. Try focusing more on actual post content of the player, or if the player has very few posts, try getting him to post.
These questions themselves are very uninformative, and you learn more from people making attacks on other people. A terrible attack is something you want to be looking for. Attacks that are incredibly vague or passive are not good.
Just try pushing breadbocks by bringing up posts instead of just asking questions you will probably get no information out of.
Post by: Toaster on March 28, 2011, 12:13:08 pm
I admit I sometimes use RVS style questions on someone I have a bad feeling about with zero concrete evidence, but once it's past the first couple RL days and there's a good post volume to work from, you should ask questions specifically related to this game, not general "if you were X would you do Y" questions. Find a post (or better, posts) that makes you wary of him and pick it apart.
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 28, 2011, 01:38:48 pm
Breadbocks, If you were a mafia roleblocker, who would you target tonight?I'd like to point out that these are RVS style questions, which you should be moving away from at this point. Try focusing more on actual post content of the player, or if the player has very few posts, try getting him to post.
These questions themselves are very uninformative, and you learn more from people making attacks on other people. A terrible attack is something you want to be looking for. Attacks that are incredibly vague or passive are not good.
Just try pushing breadbocks by bringing up posts instead of just asking questions you will probably get no information out of.
Though your intentions are admirable, please refrain from posting in this thread if you're not playing.
Post by: Ottofar on March 28, 2011, 01:58:56 pm
Constructively, like webbie did there. After all, these are the games you play to learn.
Post by: webadict on March 28, 2011, 02:04:45 pm
So, yeah, no.
Post by: IronyOwl on March 28, 2011, 02:27:41 pm
Spoiler: Off-Topic (click to show/hide)
On-topic, I'm inclined to agree with webadict and Ottofar. It has the danger of turning into a trainwreck, of course, but getting spontaneous advice from multiple sources is a good thing, so long as it doesn't get too involved and it's good advice. In this case, for instance, I really do think it needed to be said, but nobody had said it yet.
Post by: breadbocks on March 28, 2011, 04:47:20 pm
Post 1: Yeah an RVS.#1: If I left it off, people would question me about why I left it off.
Post 2: He saw something suspicious and questioned it. Thoroughly. That deserves praise, not rolled eyeballs.
Post 3: The "U MAD?" has been explained. I put the idea in his head for that. It was also a pressuring vote, to see if he got angrier. He doesn't skip over Jim, look at the last section.
Post 4: The back and forth between him and Jim: His reason for the FoS gets taken out from under his feet - leaving him nowhere to go, hence "I don't know what to say." Also in there, he is not over-defending. He was questioned that many times, so he answered that many times.
Post 5: You're wrong. It's WIFOM. It's WIFOM out the wazoo, actually. I'm going to propose a scenario: Person A and Person B are questioning each other. Person C is scum. There's other town around. Person A then turns his attention to Person C. Person C ends up lynched. The scum COULD NK Person A - he's a good scumhunter. But they NK Person B. The remaining scum say "why wasn't Person A NK'd? He's the best scumhunter" and "Person A got Person B NK'd!". Person A calls them out as scum. The town has to decide whether the scum would simply bus an ally, (like the scum are claiming) or that thw scum has a plan, (that Person A is right). There's no evidence either way, and it's down to speculation.
Wow that was long.
Post 6: Ever think that Heli was suspicious of BD BEFORE he said as such? Also, his main scumpick goes MIA, so he has to start on a new person. You give him that person to start on - and he pressures.
Post 7: Caution is a scumtell. Recklessness is a town tell. This is not guaranteed however, as I'm always cautious, for example. Being cautious as to where your vote goes is scummy play. Hell, I'm trying to be more aggressive and I still don't vote everywhere.
Post 8: The "King" of mafia said it's unreliable. And IIRC, that he think's it's not the best method. He didn't say the method was horrible and never to use it. He wants you mad right? And he has it.
Post 9: You claim he is only using a list of scumtells - I daresay all his arguements against me aren't scumtells alone.
I don't think these are too strong.. I tried to read these as if bread was town, but they still aren't too strong.
#2: I suppose so. It's just the continued "Well I think you didn't say what you mean" after that had me predisposed against it. Looking back isn't always 20-20.
#3: And yet, afterwards, even after being rebuked about it, he tried to use it again. It makes no sense why, unless he was really desperate for a leg to walk on for getting a townie lynched.
#4: :I I don't no what to say.
See how much of a bullshit answer that is when you get called out? Yeah.
#5: But that example is slightly invalid. I would 100% of the time say person A wasn't targeted, because if he targeted a townie, the second scum could just bandwagon, and use the same evidence A did. Remember what the ICs said. The best scum is one who looks like he's scum hunting. As such it follows that a scum could play follow the leader for a quick ride of pretend scumhunting, which is why when somebody asked me about who I would protect as doc, I said the second best scumhunter, because they would be a danger with no tactical use, so the scum would want them dead.
#6: No, not really. He had completely slipped under notice, until I saw there were only 7 people posting. As for the MIA point, what are the odds a lurker could be weeded out by one vote when it was pretty effective until I finally saw it.
#7: I tend to agree, although there are times when the positions switch. Nobody wants to be the one who places the vote on a townie which the scum can then pounce on.
#8: You're right. He earned my ire. And now every word he posts will be considered for how it could or couldn't incriminate him further. And I never said it was completely useless, just less than useful.
#9: I didn't mean to imply that was all he was using, I was just trying to point out how poorly that would work out, and how he could better himself.
Now. Who's next?
Ah, crown is. OK, so here we have pointing out how much of a dumbass I've been ignore others while attacking Heliman. So I'll branch out at the end of this post.
Aaaaand.... back to Seph. I got to that line from the fact that IIRC, most if not all of the things he's attacked others of he's been guilty of himself.
After him comes Toaster. First off, yeah, pronouns are an ass in Mafia, but I use them so often it's a hard habit to break. The "he" was bd, and the "you" was Heliman. Also, thanks for the tips, I'll see if I have time to re-do it point by point. Just a thing I noticed, though, was that Crown said there was <=1 of us 3, not that >=1 of us three.
Super: Err.... a bit odd of a question, but if I was an RB, I'd try to block whoever I thought was the doc, and relay my suspicion of who the cop was to the rest of my team and have the biggest threat taken out.
Now that that is out of the way, Toaster, what do you think on the circle of me, Heli, and Seph?
Post by: Heliman on March 28, 2011, 05:24:16 pm
With regards to this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2117471#msg2117471), do you not think you can sufficiently pressure someone without voting them?The way I see it is that while it's not a necessity, it never hurts to use it.
What if you were going after two people at once?Actually, I was planning on going after two people at once before egg asked for another extension. I was planning on seeing what happened if I linked Egg and Major as partners because major seemed hesitant to vote him when he first pressed, and made no comment at all about the caps-lock. Oh well.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 28, 2011, 05:31:10 pm
I have no idea what case you're trying to make against Heliman, and until I do, I'm going to vote you.
So come on, be clear. Just what do you find Heliman suspicious for? Summarize it for easy consumption.
Mod: v/la till 12:00AM the 31st GMT +10
Didn't the day get mod extended for you because of your previous leave of absence?
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 28, 2011, 05:33:29 pm
Post by: Toaster on March 28, 2011, 09:01:59 pm
Major S: Likely scum. He's defending Heliman vehemently for no apparent reason, setting himself up with safe backout plans, and admitting to avoiding an attack for self-preservation.
Heliman: Scummy by association to Major S. Not worth pursuing until Major S flips, as I don't have much against him alone.
Breadbocks: I don't understand your case on Heliman. You linked his posts and provided no analysis, which isn't a case. Please explain why those points are scummy.
Heliman: Fair enough.
Be careful when creating scum teams early. Without any flips, be sure your target is scummy by his own merits, and not due to others. For example, Major S is making you look scummy by defending you so hard, but I'm ignoring that until his alignment is revealed as otherwise I don't really have anything on you.
Crown: That's fair. I can't really say anything more about that because that's a common D1 strategy for me- ignore the big fight and go after people I suspect that are less in the spotlight.
Jim: Let's assume breadbocks explains his case well enough to satisfy you. Who would likely be your next scum pick?
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 28, 2011, 10:03:00 pm
If I had to pick it would be major_sephiroth, for suspecting Heliman without any reasons. Or rather, being wrong about what he suspected Heliman for, but not dropping the suspicion.
But hell, there's crap like that going around for the three of them (breadbocks, Heliman, major_sephiroth), and it could just as easily be them flubbing around.
I know it's a pretty passive and reserved position, but that's how I see the game right now.
Post by: Heliman on March 28, 2011, 10:26:44 pm
But hell, there's crap like that going around for the three of them (breadbocks, Heliman, major_sephiroth), and it could just as easily be them flubbing around.Flub, flub, flub,
But seriously now, back to Toaster:
His buddying is definitely off key, but the thing is I still can't get why he would do this if he was scum.
Heliman: Fair enough.
Be careful when creating scum teams early. Without any flips, be sure your target is scummy by his own merits, and not due to others. For example, Major S is making you look scummy by defending you so hard, but I'm ignoring that until his alignment is revealed as otherwise I don't really have anything on you.
If he's scum trying to make me look scummy for a lynching by being overprotective, then he's only going to get himself lynched first, and if he flips scum it wouldn't matter if I get lynched the next night or not, because it would ultimately pro-town. And if he's a semi-barnacle town defending me, he should know that it's not like I need any defense from breadbocks, who hasn't even made a clear argument yet.
I know that looking too deep into the motivations of scum ultimately leads to a WIFOM scenario, but I can't see his reasoning behind all this.
Toaster, Any ideas?
Or would you care to tell us yourself Seph?
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 29, 2011, 02:28:06 am
Major:Okay. In order:Putting my two cents in here. It does more than that - it may increase the townie's chance of being NK'd. It also allows the scum to pull out all sorts of WIFOM regarding the townie.Heliman, I want to pick your brain next. What do you think the value is of a townie convincing someone else that he is indeed town-aligned? How much self-defense do you think is too much?The value of a townie convincing someone else of his alignment is obvious and two pronged: it prevents the town from wasting a day on a bum lead and improves the chances that the next person they target will be a scum.
Could you give an example here? I'm not sure what you mean.
Also, tell me your opinion on this statement: The best thing a vanilla townie can do is convince scum they are the best NK target.Now, I said this before:Bdthemag should be active/online about now. If he hasn't posted by the next time I do, he's over-lurking.And he hasn't posted. BD, if you do not post in the 24 hours after this post is posted, I'm swapping my vote to you. Lurkers aren't good for town. Well, unless Heliman keeps being scummy. Then the vote stays on him.
I don't like this. It looks like you're setting yourself up to move your vote onto a target of convenience later here, and only scum wants convenient targets.Onto the bad part. Most of my attack was based on you saying you're a goldmine of WIFOM - and that's apparently a misinterpretation. An attack without base is crap - and I think you've had enough pressure from me. I think you're scum, but until I can convince the town of that, Unvote. You've still got my FoS to keep you company though, Heliman. To clarify - I think he's scum - I just have no evidence, and if I push my reasoning further, it's going to hurt me, not him. If you want to attack him, by all means - go for it. Just don't quote me word for word.
--SNIP--
PRE-POST EDIT: I feel I should elaborate on my mindgame. I thought TKoE was scum. Overreacting and whatnot - but I didn't want to vote him on that, as it'd be a blatant bandwagon. I knew I could convince someone to vote him with enough questions, and I happened to get Heli with my first one. So Heli, I wasn't as sheepish as you thought.
This is very, very weak. You say you think he's scum, but you're afraid of how the attack will make you look so you drop it. Basically, you just admitted you're more interested in self-preservation than finding scum, which is very scummy. Scum want to avoid scum tells. Town wants to hang scum, and if they vote in a way that might be bandwagonny, so be it- the important thing is that you get your vote on scum.
If you vote someone you find scummy and you clearly articulate your reasons, no one is going to call it a bandwagon.
This post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2121858#msg2121858) is also very questionable. Why are you going to great lengths to defend Heliman, someone whom very recently you were voting? You're doing it more here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2122745#msg2122745).
An example: Person A attempts to convince everyone he's town. He is. Person B is also town - but doesn't buy his story and continues to press him. The scum NK Person B. They then cry out: "Person A's only opposition was NK'd! Mighty suspicious!" And they continue to get person A lynched. Then all that went against him can just say that they were tricked by the scum.
Also you're the IC, so if this example is unrealistic, say so.
Onto question:
Well, it's not a clear yes or no, it's situational. The townie could do this to use WIFOM on the mafia - and (possibly) buy him another day of scumhunting, assuming he's not lynched. Alternatively, if the townie is the center of a bandwagon, he could do this to convince the town to lynch someone else, as he may be NK'd. If he IS NK'd, anyone who was quick to unvote looks suspicious, and if not, he looks suspicious and argh I could write 10 pages on this and not get anywhere.
Did you happen to notice that I said: "Unless Heliman continues to be scummy" And that I didn't vote him until a while after the 24 hours because Heliman was looking scummy? He was one of my other scumpicks - I just progressed to the next one after me pressure on Heliman didn't get anywhere. It was mostly a case of "Get in here or there will be consequences!"
It's not "Oh I'll look bad if I vote him", it's "Damn, no evidence. Better not cast a vote."
Also, mind pointing out exactly where I say self-preservation is higher than scum?
I had sparse articulate reasons but they were based on a mis-interpretation. Voting without it would be a bandwagon.
For my response to bread, I typed up what I thought on each post. I didn't see anything solid in there - it wouldn't matter if it was Heliman or not, I made and stated my opinion on his arguements, not on who they're against.
On your second linked post, I have a habit of just adding my two cents in. See later in that post for an example, and earlier for a different one.
Onto Bread:
Afternoon gents. I hope I've not gotten into too much trouble after I left- Oh dear. Well, off to the races!Onto your list first.Post 1: Yeah an RVS.#1: If I left it off, people would question me about why I left it off.
Post 2: He saw something suspicious and questioned it. Thoroughly. That deserves praise, not rolled eyeballs.
Post 3: The "U MAD?" has been explained. I put the idea in his head for that. It was also a pressuring vote, to see if he got angrier. He doesn't skip over Jim, look at the last section.
Post 4: The back and forth between him and Jim: His reason for the FoS gets taken out from under his feet - leaving him nowhere to go, hence "I don't know what to say." Also in there, he is not over-defending. He was questioned that many times, so he answered that many times.
Post 5: You're wrong. It's WIFOM. It's WIFOM out the wazoo, actually. I'm going to propose a scenario: Person A and Person B are questioning each other. Person C is scum. There's other town around. Person A then turns his attention to Person C. Person C ends up lynched. The scum COULD NK Person A - he's a good scumhunter. But they NK Person B. The remaining scum say "why wasn't Person A NK'd? He's the best scumhunter" and "Person A got Person B NK'd!". Person A calls them out as scum. The town has to decide whether the scum would simply bus an ally, (like the scum are claiming) or that thw scum has a plan, (that Person A is right). There's no evidence either way, and it's down to speculation.
Wow that was long.
Post 6: Ever think that Heli was suspicious of BD BEFORE he said as such? Also, his main scumpick goes MIA, so he has to start on a new person. You give him that person to start on - and he pressures.
Post 7: Caution is a scumtell. Recklessness is a town tell. This is not guaranteed however, as I'm always cautious, for example. Being cautious as to where your vote goes is scummy play. Hell, I'm trying to be more aggressive and I still don't vote everywhere.
Post 8: The "King" of mafia said it's unreliable. And IIRC, that he think's it's not the best method. He didn't say the method was horrible and never to use it. He wants you mad right? And he has it.
Post 9: You claim he is only using a list of scumtells - I daresay all his arguements against me aren't scumtells alone.
I don't think these are too strong.. I tried to read these as if bread was town, but they still aren't too strong.
#2: I suppose so. It's just the continued "Well I think you didn't say what you mean" after that had me predisposed against it. Looking back isn't always 20-20.
#3: And yet, afterwards, even after being rebuked about it, he tried to use it again. It makes no sense why, unless he was really desperate for a leg to walk on for getting a townie lynched.
#4: :I I don't no what to say.
See how much of a bullshit answer that is when you get called out? Yeah.
#5: But that example is slightly invalid. I would 100% of the time say person A wasn't targeted, because if he targeted a townie, the second scum could just bandwagon, and use the same evidence A did. Remember what the ICs said. The best scum is one who looks like he's scum hunting. As such it follows that a scum could play follow the leader for a quick ride of pretend scumhunting, which is why when somebody asked me about who I would protect as doc, I said the second best scumhunter, because they would be a danger with no tactical use, so the scum would want them dead.
#6: No, not really. He had completely slipped under notice, until I saw there were only 7 people posting. As for the MIA point, what are the odds a lurker could be weeded out by one vote when it was pretty effective until I finally saw it.
#7: I tend to agree, although there are times when the positions switch. Nobody wants to be the one who places the vote on a townie which the scum can then pounce on.
#8: You're right. He earned my ire. And now every word he posts will be considered for how it could or couldn't incriminate him further. And I never said it was completely useless, just less than useful.
#9: I didn't mean to imply that was all he was using, I was just trying to point out how poorly that would work out, and how he could better himself.
-SNIP-
Aaaaand.... back to Seph. I got to that line from the fact that IIRC, most if not all of the things he's attacked others of he's been guilty of himself.
1: Yeah. Agreed.
2: I'm glad you see it that way.
3: He was insanely suspicious of Jim for a 'slip'. He continued pressure until his evidence was destroyed infront of him.
4: Hehe.
5: While you have a point - I still say that if the scum were persuasive enough, they could convince the town that Person A was scum. Unlikely - but possible.
6: With every one of my (early) posts I checked to see what people had said, and who had posted. I know I was suspicious of BD before I mentioned it. I was also suspicious of you before I said as such.
7: Yeah, those lines aren't words to live by, just a basic measure. I tried getting that across with my example, but eh.
8: Try to keep your cool though, raging left right and centre doesn't help town.
9: It would work out poorly, and as such he didn't do it.
And your final line:
Looking back:
He pushes TKoE for raging. He's kept his cool (at least in his posts) so far.
He does use a little wifyiom on me. This is where you're partially correct.
He pushed BD for lurking. He's been active.
He pushes me for not explaining an FoS - he explains all of his. (That I've seen)
He votes me for attempting to spearhead a bandwagon. He hasn't done that either.
Bread, can you make sure your voting reasons are valid before you actually vote? Take the advice of an IC before me on this matter though.
Heliman:
I may not have callout out the caps lock specifically - I did say he looked suspicious and that I wanted him to answer everyones questions.What if you were going after two people at once?Actually, I was planning on going after two people at once before egg asked for another extension. I was planning on seeing what happened if I linked Egg and Major as partners because major seemed hesitant to vote him when he first pressed, and made no comment at all about the caps-lock. Oh well.
I make myself look SO SCUMMY with my scum logic expeditions but here's another one:But hell, there's crap like that going around for the three of them (breadbocks, Heliman, major_sephiroth), and it could just as easily be them flubbing around.Flub, flub, flub,
But seriously now, back to Toaster:His buddying is definitely off key, but the thing is I still can't get why he would do this if he was scum.
Heliman: Fair enough.
Be careful when creating scum teams early. Without any flips, be sure your target is scummy by his own merits, and not due to others. For example, Major S is making you look scummy by defending you so hard, but I'm ignoring that until his alignment is revealed as otherwise I don't really have anything on you.
If he's scum trying to make me look scummy for a lynching by being overprotective, then he's only going to get himself lynched first, and if he flips scum it wouldn't matter if I get lynched the next night or not, because it would ultimately pro-town. And if he's a semi-barnacle town defending me, he should know that it's not like I need any defense from breadbocks, who hasn't even made a clear argument yet.
I know that looking too deep into the motivations of scum ultimately leads to a WIFOM scenario, but I can't see his reasoning behind all this.
Toaster, Any ideas?
Or would you care to tell us yourself Seph?
If I were scum, I'd buddy you to cause - exactly what's happening. I'd only go for it if I'm willing to sacrifice myself, but both Toaster and Jim are saying you're scummy by association to me. If I were scum and flipped as such - they'd pressure you. And with the two IC's pressuring you, the other beginners would trust them, and pressure you as well.
My intention was not to protect you from bread, but to poke holes in his arguement. As I say earlier in this post, I've been suspicious of bread for a while too, so I'm going to make sure any case he uses against anyone is damn sound before I consider listening to it.
Woo not ninja'd!
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 29, 2011, 02:46:43 am
In other news:
I make myself look SO SCUMMY with my scum logic expeditions but here's another one:Wait, so... if you were scum, you'd be doing the exact same thing you're doing now? I don't even know what to say to that.
If I were scum, I'd buddy you to cause - exactly what's happening. I'd only go for it if I'm willing to sacrifice myself, but both Toaster and Jim are saying you're scummy by association to me. If I were scum and flipped as such - they'd pressure you. And with the two IC's pressuring you, the other beginners would trust them, and pressure you as well.
My intention was not to protect you from bread, but to poke holes in his arguement. As I say earlier in this post, I've been suspicious of bread for a while too, so I'm going to make sure any case he uses against anyone is damn sound before I consider listening to it.
Post by: Heliman on March 29, 2011, 03:41:19 am
He does use a little wifyiom on me. This is where you're partially correct.It's WIFOYIFOM, lol man you're horrible at this acronym business.
I may not have callout out the caps lock specifically - I did say he looked suspicious and that I wanted him to answer everyones questions.Really? I can't seem to find it. Where did you ask him to answer everyone's questions, exactly? Perhaps it was in scumchat? >:I
If I were scum, I'd buddy you to cause - exactly what's happening. I'd only go for it if I'm willing to sacrifice myself, but both Toaster and Jim are saying you're scummy by association to me. If I were scum and flipped as such - they'd pressure you. And with the two IC's pressuring you, the other beginners would trust them, and pressure you as well.Seph, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I JUST SAID.
Quote
If he's scum trying to make me look scummy for a lynching by being overprotective, then he's only going to get himself lynched first, and if he flips scum it wouldn't matter if I get lynched the next night or not, because it would ultimately pro-town.My quote even responded to your idle threat.
My intention was not to protect you from bread, but to poke holes in his arguement. As I say earlier in this post, I've been suspicious of bread for a while too, so I'm going to make sure any case he uses against anyone is damn sound before I consider listening to it.from what I've seen, as far as the Players at large are concerned, Bread still has no argument. In fact, if he actually had any relatively legitimate accusations towards me, I myself would have already beaten them down. I haven't, mostly because with every accusation so far he seems to dig himself into a grave. I know that if he's town may be a bad call by me, but either way he should learn to keep the rest of the players in mind when he hunts. Keep in mind that pride is a weakness, breadbocks!
It appears that I will be leaving tomorrow for a couple of weeks. Obviously this means that I won't be able to finish this game. You should probably put up a second replacement notice, but I'll still be able to stick around for another day or so. Sorry everyone, this was completely unexpected and I didn't know about this until last night.ANOTHER ONE?
asljdkfha;sjldha;lksjhfa;jklhaklhgfjhfbalsdkljfna-
Well at least it's the first day. Not that finding someone to brave all these posts will be easy, mind.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 29, 2011, 04:01:15 am
Did a little pressure suddenly turn you cowardly?
I can't have caught scum this early.
WIFOYIFOM
Dude, just never say this again. WIFOM is the blanket term that people understand. Going deeper into WIFOM is still WIFOM.
Generally speaking, just ignore WIFOM. Only what people have said and done are reliable indications of whether they're scum or not. Inventing hypothetical scenarios is a waste of time, as it's wrong almost all the time.
Post by: breadbocks on March 29, 2011, 07:05:24 am
Jim, there is a different amount of brain power needed for something like Mafia, and something like Happy thread. I also don't have the time I need to make a super post at 2AM.
Post by: Toaster on March 29, 2011, 09:24:16 am
Okay. In order:
An example: Person A attempts to convince everyone he's town. He is. Person B is also town - but doesn't buy his story and continues to press him. The scum NK Person B. They then cry out: "Person A's only opposition was NK'd! Mighty suspicious!" And they continue to get person A lynched. Then all that went against him can just say that they were tricked by the scum.
Also you're the IC, so if this example is unrealistic, say so.
Gotcha. The problem is that's using terrible WIFOM logic, and I'd be all over the person trying to push that crap. It's realistic, but it's scummy to try something like that.
Onto question:
Well, it's not a clear yes or no, it's situational. The townie could do this to use WIFOM on the mafia - and (possibly) buy him another day of scumhunting, assuming he's not lynched. Alternatively, if the townie is the center of a bandwagon, he could do this to convince the town to lynch someone else, as he may be NK'd. If he IS NK'd, anyone who was quick to unvote looks suspicious, and if not, he looks suspicious and argh I could write 10 pages on this and not get anywhere.
I meant more in the context of "I am the most dangerous scum hunter and you should remove me." In any case, fair enough answer.
Did you happen to notice that I said: "Unless Heliman continues to be scummy" And that I didn't vote him until a while after the 24 hours because Heliman was looking scummy? He was one of my other scumpicks - I just progressed to the next one after me pressure on Heliman didn't get anywhere. It was mostly a case of "Get in here or there will be consequences!"
Yes, I noticed. It made the case worse. As written, you can stay on Heliman if he keeps votes or move on to BD if he doesn't.
It's not "Oh I'll look bad if I vote him", it's "Damn, no evidence. Better not cast a vote."
Also, mind pointing out exactly where I say self-preservation is higher than scum?
Sure.
Onto the bad part. Most of my attack was based on you saying you're a goldmine of WIFOM - and that's apparently a misinterpretation. An attack without base is crap - and I think you've had enough pressure from me. I think you're scum, but until I can convince the town of that, Unvote. You've still got my FoS to keep you company though, Heliman. To clarify - I think he's scum - I just have no evidence, and if I push my reasoning further, it's going to hurt me, not him. If you want to attack him, by all means - go for it. Just don't quote me word for word.
--SNIP--
PRE-POST EDIT: I feel I should elaborate on my mindgame. I thought TKoE was scum. Overreacting and whatnot - but I didn't want to vote him on that, as it'd be a blatant bandwagon. I knew I could convince someone to vote him with enough questions, and I happened to get Heli with my first one. So Heli, I wasn't as sheepish as you thought.
See the underlined bits. You don't say it directly, but it's strongly implicit. In the first paragraph, you're backing off someone you say is scum because you don't have evidence. The correct move is to press him for that evidence. You shouldn't care if pressing an attack makes you look bad (hint- it won't if it's based on honest suspicion). In the second, same deal: Town has no reason to not vote someone they think is scum. If he's scum, vote him and explain why.
I had sparse articulate reasons but they were based on a mis-interpretation. Voting without it would be a bandwagon.
Then get those reasons.
For my response to bread, I typed up what I thought on each post. I didn't see anything solid in there - it wouldn't matter if it was Heliman or not, I made and stated my opinion on his arguements, not on who they're against.
On your second linked post, I have a habit of just adding my two cents in. See later in that post for an example, and earlier for a different one.
Defending others is generally a bad habit. If you want someone else to be voted, convince people by bringing your case against your target, not by tearing down someone's argument against another person.
I make myself look SO SCUMMY with my scum logic expeditions but here's another one:
You're right there.
If I were scum, I'd buddy you to cause - exactly what's happening. I'd only go for it if I'm willing to sacrifice myself, but both Toaster and Jim are saying you're scummy by association to me. If I were scum and flipped as such - they'd pressure you. And with the two IC's pressuring you, the other beginners would trust them, and pressure you as well.
This is WIFOM, pure and simple. Just don't post things like this- they don't do anyone any good.
Post by: Heliman on March 29, 2011, 10:02:47 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 29, 2011, 10:15:09 pm
Hope I didn't scare him.
Post by: Toaster on March 30, 2011, 08:20:43 am
Crown: If you're still around, you should post a brain dump before you leave.
Super: Can I get your top two picks with reasoning? Also, it'd be nice if you did something since it's been over three days since your last post.
Mod: Can we get a prod on Super, with a side of vote count?
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 30, 2011, 08:47:34 am
Post by: Supercharazad on March 30, 2011, 10:47:57 am
My current scumpicks are:
major_sephiroth,
Quote
I think you're scum, but until I can convince the town of that, Unvote.I think a kick was just delivered to my brain, and I just lost about 50 IQ, just from reading that >.<
You are meant to PRESS people! You don't give up on someone because the rest of the town doesn't believe you, you PRESS THEM.
Quote
If I were scum, I'd buddy you to cause - exactly what's happening. I'd only go for it if I'm willing to sacrifice myself, but both Toaster and Jim are saying you're scummy by association to me. If I were scum and flipped as such - they'd pressure you. And with the two IC's pressuring you, the other beginners would trust them, and pressure you as well.
Wine.
Quote
Okay. In order:
An example: Person A attempts to convince everyone he's town. He is. Person B is also town - but doesn't buy his story and continues to press him. The scum NK Person B. They then cry out: "Person A's only opposition was NK'd! Mighty suspicious!" And they continue to get person A lynched. Then all that went against him can just say that they were tricked by the scum.
Also you're the IC, so if this example is unrealistic, say so.
Wine.
Quote
I thought TKoE was scum. Overreacting and whatnot - but I didn't want to vote him on that, as it'd be a blatant bandwagon
Passive. It's not a blatant bandwagon, so long as you have a reason.
My second scumpick:
Crownoffire, for NOT POSTING (yes, I know I'm one to talk, but still.), he's barely doing anything :/
Now, I dropped Bread, because a small hunch isn;t exactly evidence.
Major_Sephiroth, why is that you seem to be ptrying tol pump wine into our mouthes with a large, high pressure fire hose?
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 30, 2011, 01:17:24 pm
breeeeeaaaaaaadbooooooooooocks.
I'm still waiting.
Post by: webadict on March 30, 2011, 01:55:33 pm
Post by: Heliman on March 30, 2011, 05:04:19 pm
Vote major_sephiroth, long overdue, due to me acting like a nondecisive pansy in front of an IC.
Post by: Heliman on March 30, 2011, 05:25:20 pm
breadbocks.Ah. Actually... He's not here because he's been muted. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80245.0) For three days. I'm not trying to eat my own face right now in childish rage. Turning away is suggested, as it will make the sounds of rage mixed with agony coming from my direction easier to bare.
breeeeeaaaaaaadbooooooooooocks.
I'm still waiting.
Post by: Orangebottle on March 30, 2011, 05:41:47 pm
Post by: Heliman on March 30, 2011, 06:52:27 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 30, 2011, 07:58:19 pm
Ah. Actually... He's not here because he's been muted. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80245.0) For three days. I'm not trying to eat my own face right now in childish rage. Turning away is suggested, as it will make the sounds of rage mixed with agony coming from my direction easier to bare.
Welp, until he explains otherwise, I think he was trying to avoid answering my question. I can keep my vote there.
So, we've got two people temporarily gone, one person who can kinda sorta play, and then one who's seeking a replacement.
Not that I'm surprised this sort of stuff happens in a Beginner's game, but you can't play a mafia game with half the people missing.
Post by: Heliman on March 30, 2011, 08:10:04 pm
Sepharoth hasn't posted in 24 hours either.
Post by: ECrownofFire on March 31, 2011, 01:22:14 am
Also, Supercharazard, it's a little hard to post from a plane, so there's that. Also, Mafia tends to be a game of reacting to people's posts, and nobody's really posted much anyway. Also, unvote, Supercharazard is finally posting useful things. But it's 1 AM now, so I'll be back tomorrow with something more.
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 31, 2011, 04:00:10 am
Heliman:
Yeah, I'm not a fan of acronyms.He does use a little wifyiom on me. This is where you're partially correct.It's WIFOYIFOM, lol man you're horrible at this acronym business.I may not have callout out the caps lock specifically - I did say he looked suspicious and that I wanted him to answer everyones questions.Really? I can't seem to find it. Where did you ask him to answer everyone's questions, exactly? Perhaps it was in scumchat? >:IIf I were scum, I'd buddy you to cause - exactly what's happening. I'd only go for it if I'm willing to sacrifice myself, but both Toaster and Jim are saying you're scummy by association to me. If I were scum and flipped as such - they'd pressure you. And with the two IC's pressuring you, the other beginners would trust them, and pressure you as well.Seph, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I JUST SAID.QuoteIf he's scum trying to make me look scummy for a lynching by being overprotective, then he's only going to get himself lynched first, and if he flips scum it wouldn't matter if I get lynched the next night or not, because it would ultimately pro-town.My quote even responded to your idle threat.My intention was not to protect you from bread, but to poke holes in his arguement. As I say earlier in this post, I've been suspicious of bread for a while too, so I'm going to make sure any case he uses against anyone is damn sound before I consider listening to it.from what I've seen, as far as the Players at large are concerned, Bread still has no argument. In fact, if he actually had any relatively legitimate accusations towards me, I myself would have already beaten them down. I haven't, mostly because with every accusation so far he seems to dig himself into a grave. I know that if he's town may be a bad call by me, but either way he should learn to keep the rest of the players in mind when he hunts. Keep in mind that pride is a weakness, breadbocks!It appears that I will be leaving tomorrow for a couple of weeks. Obviously this means that I won't be able to finish this game. You should probably put up a second replacement notice, but I'll still be able to stick around for another day or so. Sorry everyone, this was completely unexpected and I didn't know about this until last night.ANOTHER ONE?
asljdkfha;sjldha;lksjhfa;jklhaklhgfjhfbalsdkljfna-
Well at least it's the first day. Not that finding someone to brave all these posts will be easy, mind.
Here:
The King of Eggs:Your next point: I was answering your question wasn't I? I can't be assed at this point to look back further.IN ORDER TO SAVE ON QUOTE TAGS MY COMMENTS ARE GREENOn to the fun part. Firstly: I'm paranoid too, mostly. And I wouldn't bus my scumbuddy unless they were going down anyway and/or useless. Pre-emptive bussing wouldn't help.The King of Eggs, it could just be your different style of play, but you come off as heartless and overly defensive to me. I mean WANTING a scumbuddy you can bus? Wouldn't you much prefer a scumbuddy who's just skilled? I SUFFER FROM PARRANOIR, I TRUST NO ONE NOT TO BUS ME FIRST.
So. You like questions?
(These are directed at The King of Eggs)
If you were a cop, who would you investigate, based on the day so far? JIM, HE IS A POWERFUL TOWN ALLY OR A POWERFUL MAFIA MEMBER, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHICH
If you were a vigilante, (even though there can't be one), who would you kill? I WOULD TARGET JIM WITH THIS POWER ROLE ALSO, AS IF I CAN NOT BE SURE OF HIS ALLIGENCE THEN I CAN NOT CO-EXIST WITH HIM. OF COURSE VIG USSUALLY DON'T KILL N1, AND I FOLLOW THAT PRACTISE
Also, if you could elaborate on this:basically i would pick someone i could if i needed to yesI MEAN THAT I WOULD CHOOSE SOMEONE I COULD USE AS A DISTRACTION QUICKLY IF NEEDED
Your cop target: Not bad. I did that one game - investigate the IC. It would've helped if I wasn't NK'd.
Your vig target: You'd risk the fact he was town? I thought you were paranoid. Also - you don't need to follow traditional practice. If I had a scumpick, I know I'd hit them N1.
Your elaboration: That isn't too scummy, but you are heartless.
My vote stays off you for now. The FoS stays on.
And to you guys who are worried about times: weekends count for 0 hours guys!
Also on that: Idle threat? Jeez you're an idiot.
Next point: Not much to add.
Hopping in since there isn't much to say anymore:Eh, I've said before your vote is sound. I was kinda wondering why you unvoted anyway.
Vote major_sephiroth, long overdue, due to me acting like a nondecisive pansy in front of an IC.
Yeah, but I was hoping at THE VERY LEAST we would do better than the players from the last game did, but nope. Same Inertia, and a ludicrously long Day 1. SOAB.I was doing things. Plus, everytime I post I have to build a wall of text, so I'll look over the thread and not post occasionally.
Sephiroth hasn't posted in 24 hours either.
Toaster:
Major:First point: Eh. Glad I made a realistic situation.Okay. In order:
An example: Person A attempts to convince everyone he's town. He is. Person B is also town - but doesn't buy his story and continues to press him. The scum NK Person B. They then cry out: "Person A's only opposition was NK'd! Mighty suspicious!" And they continue to get person A lynched. Then all that went against him can just say that they were tricked by the scum.
Also you're the IC, so if this example is unrealistic, say so.
Gotcha. The problem is that's using terrible WIFOM logic, and I'd be all over the person trying to push that crap. It's realistic, but it's scummy to try something like that.Onto question:
Well, it's not a clear yes or no, it's situational. The townie could do this to use WIFOM on the mafia - and (possibly) buy him another day of scumhunting, assuming he's not lynched. Alternatively, if the townie is the center of a bandwagon, he could do this to convince the town to lynch someone else, as he may be NK'd. If he IS NK'd, anyone who was quick to unvote looks suspicious, and if not, he looks suspicious and argh I could write 10 pages on this and not get anywhere.
I meant more in the context of "I am the most dangerous scum hunter and you should remove me." In any case, fair enough answer.Did you happen to notice that I said: "Unless Heliman continues to be scummy" And that I didn't vote him until a while after the 24 hours because Heliman was looking scummy? He was one of my other scumpicks - I just progressed to the next one after me pressure on Heliman didn't get anywhere. It was mostly a case of "Get in here or there will be consequences!"
Yes, I noticed. It made the case worse. As written, you can stay on Heliman if he keeps votes or move on to BD if he doesn't.It's not "Oh I'll look bad if I vote him", it's "Damn, no evidence. Better not cast a vote."
Also, mind pointing out exactly where I say self-preservation is higher than scum?
Sure.Onto the bad part. Most of my attack was based on you saying you're a goldmine of WIFOM - and that's apparently a misinterpretation. An attack without base is crap - and I think you've had enough pressure from me. I think you're scum, but until I can convince the town of that, Unvote. You've still got my FoS to keep you company though, Heliman. To clarify - I think he's scum - I just have no evidence, and if I push my reasoning further, it's going to hurt me, not him. If you want to attack him, by all means - go for it. Just don't quote me word for word.
--SNIP--
PRE-POST EDIT: I feel I should elaborate on my mindgame. I thought TKoE was scum. Overreacting and whatnot - but I didn't want to vote him on that, as it'd be a blatant bandwagon. I knew I could convince someone to vote him with enough questions, and I happened to get Heli with my first one. So Heli, I wasn't as sheepish as you thought.
See the underlined bits. You don't say it directly, but it's strongly implicit. In the first paragraph, you're backing off someone you say is scum because you don't have evidence. The correct move is to press him for that evidence. You shouldn't care if pressing an attack makes you look bad (hint- it won't if it's based on honest suspicion). In the second, same deal: Town has no reason to not vote someone they think is scum. If he's scum, vote him and explain why.I had sparse articulate reasons but they were based on a mis-interpretation. Voting without it would be a bandwagon.
Then get those reasons.For my response to bread, I typed up what I thought on each post. I didn't see anything solid in there - it wouldn't matter if it was Heliman or not, I made and stated my opinion on his arguements, not on who they're against.
On your second linked post, I have a habit of just adding my two cents in. See later in that post for an example, and earlier for a different one.
Defending others is generally a bad habit. If you want someone else to be voted, convince people by bringing your case against your target, not by tearing down someone's argument against another person.I make myself look SO SCUMMY with my scum logic expeditions but here's another one:
You're right there.If I were scum, I'd buddy you to cause - exactly what's happening. I'd only go for it if I'm willing to sacrifice myself, but both Toaster and Jim are saying you're scummy by association to me. If I were scum and flipped as such - they'd pressure you. And with the two IC's pressuring you, the other beginners would trust them, and pressure you as well.
This is WIFOM, pure and simple. Just don't post things like this- they don't do anyone any good.
Third point: Yeah yeah, I look scummy. In this case - there's no ulterior motive. It is what's there and only what's there.
Fourth point: Yeah I see what you're getting at. And you're right - I care about surviving until the end, because I'm yet to do that in Mafia. But I've also been scumhunting. Pushing bread after that statement - Heliman before it. Survival is a secondary objective for me. Finding scum is the natural primary.
Fifth point: Yeah, I'm not an omnipotent scumhunter Toaster. If there are no reasons I can see, then I have no reasons. I went through Heli's posts a few times and the only thing I could find was the TvTropes link fiasco.
Sixth point: I didn't like bread's arguement so I destroyed it - no intention to defend, and he was my target.
Seventh/Eighth point: I was trying to be active in conversation, but sure. No more scumlogic expeditions.
Superchar: (No, I will not type your whole name because you mis-spelt Charizard.)
unvote.Sorry, I had a rather large backlog of homework, I still have a bit to do, but sorry for not posting :/First, stop hitting enter/return so much.
My current scumpicks are:
major_sephiroth,QuoteI think you're scum, but until I can convince the town of that, Unvote.I think a kick was just delivered to my brain, and I just lost about 50 IQ, just from reading that >.<
You are meant to PRESS people! You don't give up on someone because the rest of the town doesn't believe you, you PRESS THEM.QuoteIf I were scum, I'd buddy you to cause - exactly what's happening. I'd only go for it if I'm willing to sacrifice myself, but both Toaster and Jim are saying you're scummy by association to me. If I were scum and flipped as such - they'd pressure you. And with the two IC's pressuring you, the other beginners would trust them, and pressure you as well.
Wine.QuoteOkay. In order:
An example: Person A attempts to convince everyone he's town. He is. Person B is also town - but doesn't buy his story and continues to press him. The scum NK Person B. They then cry out: "Person A's only opposition was NK'd! Mighty suspicious!" And they continue to get person A lynched. Then all that went against him can just say that they were tricked by the scum.
Also you're the IC, so if this example is unrealistic, say so.
Wine.QuoteI thought TKoE was scum. Overreacting and whatnot - but I didn't want to vote him on that, as it'd be a blatant bandwagon
Passive. It's not a blatant bandwagon, so long as you have a reason.
My second scumpick:
Crownoffire, for NOT POSTING (yes, I know I'm one to talk, but still.), he's barely doing anything :/
Now, I dropped Bread, because a small hunch isn't exactly evidence.
Major_Sephiroth, why is that you seem to be trying to pump wine into our mouthes with a large, high pressure fire hose?
Your first point:
Yes, and I HAVE PRESSED PEOPLE. That sentence is NOT a travesty to mafia. I didn't believe myself at that point. Still don't.
Second point: "Wine." Lovely description. Note my first words in that: "If I were scum". The scum use Wine - thus that quote is full. There's also the larger wine of you calling me scum because you think I'm doing that. Yeah. It's wine. Passing it off as nothing is more wine. Note Heli's response and rebuttal to that. It would work out in the towns favour at the end. So, even if that WAS what I was doing, the town has nothing to worry about.
Third: Did you read Toaster's post about it? It's another example that involves scum, so it involves scummy logic, and some wine for good measure. It's what COULD happen. Little chance of it in this game though.
Fourth: Will you please READ ALL MY POSTS. I have said that I didn't have much evidence against TKoE, so I got Heliman to get it. I didn't have enough of a reason to vote him, so I didn't.
Fifth: Crown's been posting. Significantly more than you.
Your final line:
Did you have to fancy it up? I've bolded the spelling mistakes. And I KNOW I look scummy, I have said that. You think I'm scummy because I think about what the scum would do, and what I would do as scum. You can't beat what you don't understand. Hell, I don't even understand it that much.
If I'm missing any questions: Screw you and ask again.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 31, 2011, 04:21:52 am
Second point: "Wine." Lovely description. Note my first words in that: "If I were scum". The scum use Wine - thus that quote is full. There's also the larger wine of you calling me scum because you think I'm doing that. Yeah. It's wine. Passing it off as nothing is more wine. Note Heli's response and rebuttal to that. It would work out in the towns favour at the end. So, even if that WAS what I was doing, the town has nothing to worry about.
How is calling you scum for using WIFOM WIFOM? That makes absolutely no sense. You're just making crap up, aren't you?
I also don't like that you bumbling around with all this WIFOM nonsense works out for the town in the end no matter what you do. No, sorry, that doesn't happen.
And for goodness' sake will everybody stop trying to call what everybody's doing WIFOM? It's completely pointless and you all sound idiotic. Everybody, and I do mean everybody, and just for emphasis, if you think you shouldn't be included in this then you're wrong, just stop it with the WIFOM bullshit. It'll get you positively nowhere and you'll sound 110% smarter the moment you stop.
If I see it one more time, I don't know what I'll do. But it'll probably involve lots of swearing and wondering why you keep ignoring what I tell you and whether or not your brain is atrophying from disuse.
Post by: Toaster on March 31, 2011, 08:29:43 am
Major:
Spoiler: Previous points (click to show/hide)
First point: Eh. Glad I made a realistic situation.
Third point: Yeah yeah, I look scummy. In this case - there's no ulterior motive. It is what's there and only what's there.
Fourth point: Yeah I see what you're getting at. And you're right - I care about surviving until the end, because I'm yet to do that in Mafia. But I've also been scumhunting. Pushing bread after that statement - Heliman before it. Survival is a secondary objective for me. Finding scum is the natural primary.
Fifth point: Yeah, I'm not an omnipotent scumhunter Toaster. If there are no reasons I can see, then I have no reasons. I went through Heli's posts a few times and the only thing I could find was the TvTropes link fiasco.
Sixth point: I didn't like bread's arguement so I destroyed it - no intention to defend, and he was my target.
Seventh/Eighth point: I was trying to be active in conversation, but sure. No more scumlogic expeditions.
(Spoiler added in quote for length)
Point 3: I suppose, but it still says scum to me.
Point 4: Your phrasing says those two objectives are in the wrong order. You should never back off an honest suspicion because it's unpopular. You shouldn't be attacked for an honest suspicion, in any case. (That doesn't hold if the attacker doesn't think it's honest or if it's poorly backed up/reasoned out.) Convince people that scum hunting is your primary and only goal and then you will be considered town. Remember, your survival is not required. It's a tough pill to swallow at first, but townies are disposable.
Point 5: That's fine- that's why you're here, right? If you have no reasons but still suspect, interrogate him until you either have reasons or no longer have suspicion. If you stop suspecting, move on to your next target.
Point 6: I suppose. It's still notable, though.
Point 7/8: Posting, in general, is good. Posting WIFOM is anti-town. Take the time to ask some questions instead.
King: I believe you're coming back today. Please give us your opinion on the events you missed, as well as your new scum picks.
Super: Do you have any questions to back up that second pick? If you suspect him, why aren't you grilling him?
Post by: lordnincompoop on March 31, 2011, 11:08:40 am
Post by: Supercharazad on March 31, 2011, 12:13:00 pm
I think our IC needs a replacement, this day is about a week and a half long. I know we have long days in Mafia here, but that's ludicrous.
Toaster: I guess I'm losing interest.
Can I have a replacement? I'm getting bored with this game, so I see no point in continuing playing it. Once a replacement is ready, I'm going.
Post by: Heliman on March 31, 2011, 12:59:22 pm
If you are stillI going to leave, know that I expected more of a Mod/SE than this. Hell, I expected more of a first time in noob than this. It's dissappointing.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 31, 2011, 02:10:02 pm
God, you flakey little- Super, you've modded before, do you actually expect this kind of conduct in your own games? Having people flake due to IRL reasons is one thing, but quitting the game due to a long D1? Not only does it show that you need to spend more time learning paitence in BMs anyway, but it also shows that you're not respectful to the other players.
If you are stillI going to leave, know that I expected more of a Mod/SE than this. Hell, I expected more of a first time in noob than this. It's dissappointing.
I lost interest. To be honest, I really don't appreciate that post, you're trying to make me feel bad for allowing someone else to take my place because I'm not having fun anymore?
It seems you'd like me to stay, is it because I'm the one that the scum wants to get lynched?
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 31, 2011, 02:19:59 pm
Did you or did you not sign up for this game, and were you not aware of the time commitment involved? I don't care if you've lost interest. Play the fucking game. You owe it to everybody else.
Post by: Heliman on March 31, 2011, 02:48:05 pm
I lost interest. To be honest, I really don't appreciate that post, you're trying to make me feel bad for allowing someone else to take my place because I'm not having fun anymore?You're god damn right I'm trying to make you feel bad! We have three people missing already, do you really think we'll be able to find room for a fourth easily?
Post by: Toaster on March 31, 2011, 02:49:35 pm
What did you mean by IC replacement?
It seems you'd like me to stay, is it because I'm the one that the scum wants to get lynched?
Are you trying to make an attack here? If so, fine, but it's not clear at all.
Post by: Supercharazad on March 31, 2011, 03:43:01 pm
I lost interest. To be honest, I really don't appreciate that post, you're trying to make me feel bad for allowing someone else to take my place because I'm not having fun anymore?You're god damn right I'm trying to make you feel bad! We have three people missing already, do you really think we'll be able to find room for a fourth easily?
If we can't, I'll keep playing. You didn't answer my question.
Heliman: Why didn't you answer my question? Are you afraid to answer, or are you just checking scumchat to see what your partner will say?
Post by: Toaster on March 31, 2011, 03:52:45 pm
You didn't answer my question.
Says the person who didn't answer mine.
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 31, 2011, 04:01:28 pm
Or respond to me, for that matter.You didn't answer my question.
Says the person who didn't answer mine.
Superchar - start building your wall of text. I'm waiting for it.
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 31, 2011, 04:13:07 pm
Unvote. So go hang, major_sephiroth, until you answer my question. And even after you do, well, I probably won't change my mind.
Post by: Heliman on March 31, 2011, 04:23:28 pm
Your first question was bullshit. I answered by showing my motivations for wanting you to stay, meaning your second question here is Bullshit^2 and your third question is Bullshit^3. You have achieved three dimensional bullshit.Heliman: Why didn't you answer my question? Are you afraid to answer, or are you just checking scumchat to see what your partner will say?I lost interest. To be honest, I really don't appreciate that post, you're trying to make me feel bad for allowing someone else to take my place because I'm not having fun anymore?You're god damn right I'm trying to make you feel bad! We have three people missing already, do you really think we'll be able to find room for a fourth easily?
Post by: major_sephiroth on March 31, 2011, 06:02:31 pm
That's a horrible mess of a post. You should work on being clearer.Firstly, yeah it's a messy post.Second point: "Wine." Lovely description. Note my first words in that: "If I were scum". The scum use Wine - thus that quote is full. There's also the larger wine of you calling me scum because you think I'm doing that. Yeah. It's wine. Passing it off as nothing is more wine. Note Heli's response and rebuttal to that. It would work out in the towns favour at the end. So, even if that WAS what I was doing, the town has nothing to worry about.
How is calling you scum for using WIFOM WIFOM? That makes absolutely no sense. You're just making crap up, aren't you?
I also don't like that you bumbling around with all this WIFOM nonsense works out for the town in the end no matter what you do. No, sorry, that doesn't happen.
And for goodness' sake will everybody stop trying to call what everybody's doing WIFOM? It's completely pointless and you all sound idiotic. Everybody, and I do mean everybody, and just for emphasis, if you think you shouldn't be included in this then you're wrong, just stop it with the WIFOM bullshit. It'll get you positively nowhere and you'll sound 110% smarter the moment you stop.
If I see it one more time, I don't know what I'll do. But it'll probably involve lots of swearing and wondering why you keep ignoring what I tell you and whether or not your brain is atrophying from disuse.
I said that if I were scum, I'd try to cause what's already happening.
Superchar assumes I am scum and I'm doing what I said.
If I straight deny it, he could just keep calling me scum, because scum would straight deny it.
That enough of an answer for you?
Post by: Jim Groovester on March 31, 2011, 06:50:33 pm
How many fucking times do I have to tell everybody to just fucking ignore it? It's like I'm teaching a brick wall here.
Here's your problem: you're doing what you said you'd do as scum. And you're also not denying that you're scum. You've basically said that you yourself look a lot like scum, but you don't want to do anything about it because you'd look like even more like scum. Too bad for you: you've successfully engineered your own lynch, because everybody who doesn't care about WIFOM (which should be everybody) will see no reason to think that you're not scum when tacit admissions of it are coming out of your mouth.
You know, scum would deny being scum, but do you know who else would deny being scum? TOWN. Maybe you should think about that for a second instead of trying to out think everybody in the game with circles and circles of WIFOM. The only person it's hurting is yourself. Seriously, you've only got yourself to blame if you end up hanging at the end of the day.
Post by: Heliman on March 31, 2011, 10:42:00 pm
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 01, 2011, 12:45:13 am
Anyway, I think it's obvious that major_sephiroth is going to hang today, really. Don't know what to say about that right now though.
This game really isn't turning out well as far as all these people leaving and me being half here (sorry about that, it was rather sudden). But as long as we get people to fill those slots it's all good. It does kind of limit the scum-hunting abilities though, a lot less to go on, I suppose. But after this long first day, the following days should be rather shorter.
Post by: major_sephiroth on April 01, 2011, 06:17:10 am
So you've backed yourself into a corner and you can't argue yourself out of it because you're worried about WIFOM.
How many fucking times do I have to tell everybody to just fucking ignore it? It's like I'm teaching a brick wall here.
Here's your problem: you're doing what you said you'd do as scum. And you're also not denying that you're scum. You've basically said that you yourself look a lot like scum, but you don't want to do anything about it because you'd look like even more like scum. Too bad for you: you've successfully engineered your own lynch, because everybody who doesn't care about WIFOM (which should be everybody) will see no reason to think that you're not scum when tacit admissions of it are coming out of your mouth.
You know, scum would deny being scum, but do you know who else would deny being scum? TOWN. Maybe you should think about that for a second instead of trying to out think everybody in the game with circles and circles of WIFOM. The only person it's hurting is yourself. Seriously, you've only got yourself to blame if you end up hanging at the end of the day.
And so I finally learn something from you.
Few notes before day end:
TKoE hasn't returned.
Superchar is still an idiot.
Same with bread.
My scumpicks: (highest to lowest)
Superchar/Bread
Heliman (You're suspicious)
TKoE
Jim (This is just a scummy vibe.)
Toast/BD (Neutral)
Crown (I'd be surprised if you flipped scum)
Superchar has said that they think that lurking is a pretty abysmal strategy - and yet they do it. Watch that one.
I'm going to get lynched, so on day 2, look back at my posts and know that there were made in good faith. Stupid, but in good faith.
I wanted all my information in the open.
I'll check again in the morning - if the day hasn't ended. If it hasn't, Votecount?
Post by: webadict on April 01, 2011, 09:22:45 am
Post by: Toaster on April 01, 2011, 10:26:37 am
I hate to say it, but we need an extension. We can't finish D1 with 3-4 of 9 players missing.
Post by: Heliman on April 01, 2011, 10:37:25 am
Post by: Heliman on April 01, 2011, 10:38:18 am
Post by: Supercharazad on April 01, 2011, 11:40:05 am
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 01, 2011, 01:01:07 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 01, 2011, 01:20:27 pm
Post by: Supercharazad on April 01, 2011, 02:27:27 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 01, 2011, 03:05:28 pm
I'll play, if no one minds, though I might be slightly biased...
Mind replacing Super, then?
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 01, 2011, 03:08:12 pm
Day 1 Has Ended!
major_sephiroth has been Lynched!
He was Town.
major_sephiroth has been Lynched!
He was Town.
Votecount:
Heliman - 2 - Toaster, Breadbocks
Supercharazard - 2 - Orangebottle, CrownofFire
Orangebottle - 0 -
Breadbocks - 0 -
CrownofFire - 1 - The King of Eggs
The King of Eggs - 0 -
major_sephiroth - 4 – Toaster, Supercharazard, Heliman, Jim Groovester
Jim Groovester - 0 -
Toaster - 0 -
Not Voting - 0 -
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 2 - Supercharazard, Toaster
Shorten - 0 -
With 2 to extend and 3 needed, the day will end normally.
The day draws to a close, and out of the storm of arguments a name rises; major_sephiroth. Raising their fists in anger, they approach his fearful figure, outlined in bright orange by the heat of the campfire they created not long ago.
"No, please! I'm innocent, I swear! Oh god no, not in there, please!" he begged, kneeling in front of them, eyes wide.
The mob simply took another step, and readied for the beating. Desperate, he grabs the nearest person and pushes him in front of himself.
"Look, what about this guy, Heliman? Why isn't it him, huh? He's made more mistakes that I have!"
The mob remained unfazed.
"Don't you get it? It's him! it's him all right!"
Jim Groovester, displeased with this turn of events and anxious for the kill, lands a punch squarely in the Major's face. Stunned, the Major does nothing but look up at him, holding his hand to his nose. Jim's hand lifts once more, and strangled cries came from beneath as he begins pummelling the wretch. There are no words that come from the victim's mouth; they, along with his mind, faded after the first few blows.
As if in unspoken agreement, several islanders restrain his body as Jim pushes his head into the fire. Everyone flinches as the screams ring across the island, drawn out for minutes at a time as his face chars, his hair blackens and his features crumble. Even with his skin black after several minutes, the screams are just as loud, until they're cut short by a heavy rock thrown at him.
Toaster begins rifling through his clothes and searching his body, but alas. There's nothing in the fire, and it seems he was just a nobody.
Unsatisfied and slightly disturbed by the morbid turn of events, the body is disposed of in the forest and everyone settles down for some sleep.
A few hours later in the night, a person in the sick ward (the shade under a patch of trees) wakes up. Struggling to remember his name, he decides to call himself Orangebottle and falls asleep again.
major_sephiroth has been lynched. He was Town.
Bdthemag is now Orangebottle.
The King of Eggs has been prodded.
Supercharazard is seeking a replacement.
Night 1 has begun!
Scum & power roles, send in your night actions.
The Night will end Monday, 7PM GMT.
Scum & power roles, send in your night actions.
The Night will end Monday, 7PM GMT.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 04, 2011, 01:24:33 pm
Day 2 Has Begun!
Toaster has been Nightkilled!
He was Town.
Toaster has been Nightkilled!
He was Town.
Votecount:
Heliman - 0 -
webadict - 0 -
Orangebottle - 0 -
Breadbocks - 0 -
CrownofFire - 0 -
The King of Eggs - 0 -
Jim Groovester - 0 -
Not Voting - 0 -
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 0 -
Shorten - 0 -
"Where'd Toaster go?"
Was the first thing on everyone's minds this morning. They decided to send search parties after him, and a few hours later, they found him.
Or rather, his body. It was bluish grey now, and the head had rolled off nearby. It was definitely Toaster, and everyone was thoroughly shocked when they saw it.
It was clear that this was no game; they were trapped here for some morbid purpose, perhaps as human game to be hunted by some Russian nobleman tired of normal hunting, and they had to escape. Even if it meant killing everyone.
But for now, everyone was still in shock and returned to the campsite, silent. Everyone sat around for a while.
Then someone - one could never see or remember who started it - rose up, dragged another by the collar, and argued. He had broken the silence, and so it began.
Everyone rose for the brawl. This time, they'd get the right guy. They had to.
Toaster has been lynched. He was Town.
Supercharazard is now webadict.
The Day will end Thursday, 8PM GMT.
You need 3 to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 04, 2011, 01:31:38 pm
breadbocks, that was a pretty smart move, how you got muted to avoid answering me. What was your case on Heliman? And what's your case on your current scum target if they're different people?
The King of Eggs, you got a free pass on Day 1. What's your opinion on the game?
Post by: webadict on April 04, 2011, 02:01:36 pm
I'll post more later, as I work a fair amount.
Post by: Toaster on April 04, 2011, 02:41:41 pm
Listen to your ICs! Especially Web, you rank amateur.
Post by: breadbocks on April 04, 2011, 02:50:01 pm
breadbocks, that was a pretty smart move, how you got muted to avoid answering me. What was your case on Heliman? And what's your case on your current scum target if they're different people?Yes. Of course. I totally got muted, and thus stopped from having any input anywhere on the forums, where I have numerous commitments elsewhere which I missed out of for 3 days, all so I could dodge that one question. Makes all the sense in the world.
My case on Heliman was rather blind out of shear annoyance, partly because of real like, partly because of stuff in GD, and partly because Heli just rubs me the wrong way, like quite a few people on the forums do, and I suspect as I do to many in return. Really was rather stupid, and 3 days is more than enough time to look at something and go "Damn, what was I thinking?". It doesn't help that our unofficial 3rd IC claims it's all bullocks anyways.
As for current suspicions, I for sure want to take a peek into how wuba is so certain that Heli's innocent, and I would like to look at the reactions from Toaster's (I quite liked the flavor, BTW) death.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 04, 2011, 03:04:37 pm
And it's pretty damn convenient for you that you get to back away from a shitty case you made.
Post by: webadict on April 04, 2011, 03:26:13 pm
I suppose the IC thing to do would be to play fairly, but the winner in me wishes to cheat. So, I'll brb.
Post by: breadbocks on April 04, 2011, 03:28:50 pm
But you want me to start questioning people before I get the chance to see peoples reaction to the scumkill? Fine.
Jim, why are you so intent on refusing to accept that I could possibly see a mistake, and then move on from it, rather than trying to force that mistake to be good in some way? I refuse to believe 12 hours of me taking a step back and thinking about what people say will harm the town, as opposed to jumping on somebody's back, and then putting myself in the same spot as I was when I was floundering for something on Heliman?
Post by: webadict on April 04, 2011, 03:39:15 pm
I would at least like to see what the other 4 players who haven't even posted today yet.So, you're dropping Heliman just because I said he was Town, while also not bothering to find any actual evidence? For all you know, I'm wrong or scum.
But you want me to start questioning people before I get the chance to see peoples reaction to the scumkill? Fine.
Jim, why are you so intent on refusing to accept that I could possibly see a mistake, and then move on from it, rather than trying to force that mistake to be good in some way? I refuse to believe 12 hours of me taking a step back and thinking about what people say will harm the town, as opposed to jumping on somebody's back, and then putting myself in the same spot as I was when I was floundering for something on Heliman?
Sitting around waiting to see what others say is far from being helpful. Why not try to look for a case on someone? Or possibly build one for Heliman. Not that it will matter to me, but at least you'd be useful.
Post by: breadbocks on April 04, 2011, 03:50:12 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 04, 2011, 04:01:29 pm
I would at least like to see what the other 4 players who haven't even posted today yet.
But you want me to start questioning people before I get the chance to see peoples reaction to the scumkill? Fine.
Jim, why are you so intent on refusing to accept that I could possibly see a mistake, and then move on from it, rather than trying to force that mistake to be good in some way? I refuse to believe 12 hours of me taking a step back and thinking about what people say will harm the town, as opposed to jumping on somebody's back, and then putting myself in the same spot as I was when I was floundering for something on Heliman?
Passive and reactionary? Hells yes, that's a twofer for being scum!
I thought you wanted to look into WUBA. What happened to that? I mean, that's what you said. Just said, in fact. I guess OMGUSing me and flipping the fuck out was more important.
There's nothing wrong with realizing mistakes. Problem is, you don't have any other suspects. You said you wanted to look into WUBA, but you didn't do that when you had the opportunity. And by opportunity, I mean right now, because you can do that, you know. Ask questions whenever. Whenever you're online. Such as right now.
Wanting to wait and see is useless and passive, and reeks more than a little of an attempt to see what everyone else thought and what their scum picks were before you decided to choose your own.
You see, town actively go find out answers by, get this, asking questions. You were gone for three days and had absolutely nothing to say and nothing to ask anybody. You're scum.
Post by: breadbocks on April 04, 2011, 04:39:05 pm
Quote
Herp derp ain't bein useful lalala leave me alone dododo...
What I actually say: I would like to, for once in my life, actually check over my stuff and make sure I'm not being a dumbass. I don't have anything on Webadict yet, and I'd like to get what I already have done. Who knows? Check back in an hour or so, and you might just find I've actually been doing stuff. Who coulda thunk it?
Post by: webadict on April 04, 2011, 04:43:21 pm
Wanting to wait and see is useless and passive, and reeks more than a little of an attempt to see what everyone else thought and what their scum picks were before you decided to choose your own.I'll also expand a little on these parts.
You see, town actively go find out answers by, get this, asking questions.
The top part is entirely accurate. No one has ever accomplished anything from that top part, and it's usually a way for scum to sit back and piggyback off other people's arguments.
The second part I disagree with. There is more to finding out answers than just asking questions. You'll actually need to do some deduction as well. Just because you have all the answers to every question means nothing if you have no conclusions.
Which means,
Not just because you said he was town, but because 3 days is a long time to spend realizing just how much of a dumbass some things are. And yeah, just because I'm not going to pin anybody down yet doesn't mean I'm not looking back to yesterday for scumtells.You better be back with a suspect and a case.
As for me, I'll be back later tonight. I'll PFP for the next couple of hours.
What Jim thinks I say:I'll be fair: You won't find anything on me. That's all there is to it. You can find things on SC, but that means nothing to me. You can wait until I make a case and look at that, but maybe you should try finding something using the information there already is. Really, complaining isn't doing.QuoteHerp derp ain't bein useful lalala leave me alone dododo...
What I actually say: I would like to, for once in my life, actually check over my stuff and make sure I'm not being a dumbass. I don't have anything on Webadict yet, and I'd like to get what I already have done. Who knows? Check back in an hour or so, and you might just find I've actually been doing stuff. Who coulda thunk it?
Post by: breadbocks on April 04, 2011, 05:19:44 pm
Toaster- Found dead in a forest
Seph- Murdered in a fire
Bd- Needs a replacement
Eggs- Wandered off into a forest
This leaves us with 7 people living, 6 people capable of playing, and 5 actually playing, 4 of which aren't me, and thus suspects.
And the notes I've on this machine:
Webadict- New player, and thus need a read on. Super was less than a good townie, but that might just be inexperience showing. So, wuba, who is the most scummy to you so far?
Heliman- Just because I was a failure at pressing him, and using what I got does not prove his innocence, but it does show that if he's scum, he's good at hiding it.
CrownofFire- Been rather quiet, but has done nothing wrong. A bit on the lurkey side, but not to badly.
Jim- Mostly said "You're wrong" and pointed out how people could better scumhunt, rather than doing much of it himself.
All the bulky mostly speculation notes are on my piece of shit netbook with a largely borked monitor, so it could well take longer to get that one booted up and posting.
Post by: Heliman on April 04, 2011, 05:41:10 pm
From the little I've read and my limited posting right now, I believe Crown and The King are scum. I also, perhaps cheatingly, know Heliman is Town.PFP: No I will not have this, I would have said I was town even if I wasn't. I never drop character.
I'll post more later, as I work a fair amount.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 04, 2011, 07:40:33 pm
Bd- Needs a replacement
Whuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut? ;)
PFP, as always. I'll probably post more when I've had time to read the last ~20 pages.
Post by: breadbocks on April 04, 2011, 07:46:16 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 05, 2011, 01:35:41 am
Just to be clear Eggs should be playing, and if I don't see him post soon I'll send another prod.
There are 7 people in the game, all of which should be playing.
Post by: webadict on April 05, 2011, 07:39:35 am
You won't have what? Me say you're Town? That's really not your call, actually.From the little I've read and my limited posting right now, I believe Crown and The King are scum. I also, perhaps cheatingly, know Heliman is Town.PFP: No I will not have this, I would have said I was town even if I wasn't. I never drop character.
I'll post more later, as I work a fair amount.
Post by: The King of Eggs on April 05, 2011, 08:20:43 am
For good this time (shouldn't of said that :/)
Firstly. Holy what the!
Posts everywhere.
I now see what you people meant by 'different style'
Yep over at resplect we sure as heck don't flake out all over the place.
What the hell is with this blah blah I'm bored. I don't wanna play anymore. The days too long crap! /rant
Sounds to me as though someone has a flakey scum buddy in this game.
*quakes in fear at monolithic posts*
I promise I will try to emanate you with one of my own within 48hrs.
Try not to be replaced before I get back.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 05, 2011, 01:09:16 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 05, 2011, 06:35:44 pm
Votecount:
Heliman - 0 -
webadict - 0 -
Orangebottle - 0 -
Breadbocks - 1 - Jim Groovester
CrownofFire - 0 -
The King of Eggs - 0 -
Jim Groovester - 1 - breadbocks
Not Voting - 0 - Heliman, webadict, Orangebottle, CrownofFire, The King of Eggs
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 0 -
Shorten - 0 -
Extend - 0 -
Shorten - 0 -
In its current state, the day will end with a No Lynch.
Heliman has been prodded.
Orangebottle has been prodded.
The Day ends to Thursday, 8PM GMT.
You need 3 to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 05, 2011, 07:33:11 pm
Breadbocks, who do you think benefited the most from Toaster's death?
Jim, why did you automatically assume he got muted just to avoid our question?
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 05, 2011, 07:42:32 pm
Who do you suspect? Are you fully caught up on the thread now?
Post by: breadbocks on April 05, 2011, 07:55:21 pm
Breadbocks, who do you think benefited the most from Toaster's death?Obviously the scum. It both stops town from learning how to catch scum better, and gets rid of a large threat itself.
If you want names, I'd say Jim, and Webadict, because it makes us depend on them more, and thus subconsciously more trusting.
Anyways, Jim: What do you say to the fact you've done minimal scumhunting yourself, but spent more time criticizing others' attempts at scumhunting?
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 05, 2011, 08:04:09 pm
It's my job to criticize your scumhunting.
And I've done plenty of scumhunting, far more than you anyway.
Accusing people who are scumhunting of not scumhunting is a pretty blatant scumtell. Means you don't have anything else to go on.
If you want names, I'd say Jim, and Webadict, because it makes us depend on them more, and thus subconsciously more trusting.
Suspecting experienced players because of their experience is WIFOM.
Post by: breadbocks on April 05, 2011, 08:09:00 pm
I fail to see how pointing out the fact that we'd (The non-IC players) become more reliant on the ICs that are left is WIFOM. Enlighten me.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 05, 2011, 08:25:31 pm
You're gambling that we are scum, because we have the skill and experience necessary to look indistinguishable from town if that were the case. But that's exactly what it is: a gamble. You don't have any game-related reason to think either myself or webadict are scum. There's nothing you can point to to say, "This is a scummy thing they did." Instead, you're saying, "They are experienced; suspect them."
That's classic WIFOM so I have no idea why you're even suggesting it beyond that you're scum and don't have any idea what to do and are just grasping for anything you can.
Post by: webadict on April 05, 2011, 08:27:39 pm
If you want names, I'd say Jim, and Webadict, because it makes us depend on them more, and thus subconsciously more trusting.Are... you being serious?
You are suspicious of us because we're good players?
Hahahaha. Nice attitude. It also means you've got no information and are basically pulling reasons from your nether regions. It's like, "Who can I lynch with the most bogus reason?"
In fact, you're just attacking anyone that points at you.
So, really, you've got about one post to make a legitimate case.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 05, 2011, 08:53:27 pm
My main suspects are Breadbocks and Webadict.
Why?
Breadbocks is basically chainsaw defending himself.
Supercharazad was being questioned by Toaster before Toaster was killed and Webadict replaced him.
So, Breadbocks, why are you being so extremely overdefensive? Also, I was looking for a more specific answer to my last question.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 05, 2011, 09:02:12 pm
Breadbocks is basically chainsaw defending himself.
This makes no sense to me.
Supercharazad was being questioned by Toaster before Toaster was killed and Webadict replaced him.
This is a bad idea. You don't want to look into the night kill as a source for suspects. Since you don't know the motivations of the scum team for why they did it, there's no way to be certain about any of your conclusions.
It's better just to ignore the night kill and look at people's day games.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 05, 2011, 09:16:50 pm
Quote from: webadict link=topic=80018.msg2154077#msg2154077 date=1302053259
In fact, you're just attacking anyone that points at you.
[/quote
In fact, you're just attacking anyone that points at you.
[/quote
I meant that, Jim.
Also, Breadbocks, ignore the second part of my question. I just noticed that you already answered that.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 05, 2011, 09:18:13 pm
In fact, you're just attacking anyone that points at you.I meant that, Jim.
Also, Breadbocks, ignore the second part of my question. I just noticed that you already answered that.
Derp-freaking-tastic. I need to preview my posts.
Post by: webadict on April 05, 2011, 09:22:56 pm
Supercharazad was being questioned by Toaster before Toaster was killed and Webadict replaced him.I want you to run that through your head one more time.
There are several reasons why that is wrong, but the very first is that it's WIFOM. You might as well have said that everyone that lynched major_sephiroth was scum as well. Every one of them. Because he was Town.
Second, if I were scum, I would've probably killed Heliman, especially since I know he's Town. Of course, that's WIFOM, so take it for what it's worth.
Third, I'm not Super. Any suspicion from Toaster due to Super is about as meaningful to me as someone out for revenge on me for my ancestor. It means nothing to me, because I didn't do it.
Fourth... Where does Toaster find Super suspicious? You've quoted nothing, but you say Toaster was suspicious of Super. Where? Toaster was suspicious of Heliman as of yesterday (which would clearly make my job easier as scum), and before that, he was voting major_sephiroth. So, somewhere in there, you seem to have fabricated this.
The closest thing I can find is this:
You didn't answer my question.
Says the person who didn't answer mine.
Which is a response to this:
Super: You getting replaced will hurt the interest of others. Yes, it's a long D1. You don't have to pore over every detail for three walls of text a day; a post a day with content is fine if the day is protracted.
What did you mean by IC replacement?It seems you'd like me to stay, is it because I'm the one that the scum wants to get lynched?
Are you trying to make an attack here? If so, fine, but it's not clear at all.
So, where, oh where, are you making this up from?
And for that, you'll need to make an actual attack. Especially since your reasoning on breadbocks is basically a bandwagon. Your attack is that he is OMGUSing, which I'm going to say is about the easiest reason to use on him right now without providing anything new.
There we go, guys. Let's start making some real arguments here. It's the most efficient way to scumhunt.
Post by: Heliman on April 06, 2011, 01:52:05 am
Now where should I start?
WUBA
Toaster was suspicious of Heliman as of yesterday (which would clearly make my job easier as scum), and before that, he was voting major_sephiroth. So, somewhere in there, you seem to have fabricated this.He was merely doing a random question with a vote press, which he took awhile to get around to answering.
Jim Groovypants
You don't have any game-related reason to think either myself or webadict are scum.Time for round two.
(Ok heli you can do this!)
Ding.
Ding.
I wasn't being serious. Of course I knew he didn't get muted just to avoid my question. I was being a dick to provoke him into responding sooner rather than later.This statement is screams scum. I'll get to that in a moment. Before that, I'm going to square away Jim's Ace-in-the-hole IC ethos defense.
Jim, an IC has absolutely no business intentionally pissing off beginners ever. The only thing it serves to accomplish is making a player even less responsive to your advice, which, since you're actually trying to teach us newbies how to hunt effectively, doesn't help teach the player AT ALL.
Now for the scumminess. If you were trying to make bread post prematurely this would be a contradiction of one of the pieces of evidence you used here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2149298#msg2149298). In this post, you said that his reactionary behavior was scummy. BUT, with the post I just quoted, you admitted to actually trying to intentionally provoke breadbocks beforehand. This means that the whole operation you have going here is a trap to get an emotional player framed by intentionally provoking him to respond in a reactive way, and then using it as evidence against him. That is scummy. In fact, that is the scummiest thing I've ever heard of.
Jim, there is a difference between pissing someone off to see if they drop scumtells and pissing someone off in order to engineer your own. Vote Jim Groovester.
Post by: The King of Eggs on April 06, 2011, 02:07:48 am
Jim GroovypantsYou don't have any game-related reason to think either myself or webadict are scum.Time for round two.
(Ok heli you can do this!)
Ding.
Ding.I wasn't being serious. Of course I knew he didn't get muted just to avoid my question. I was being a dick to provoke him into responding sooner rather than later.This statement is screams scum. I'll get to that in a moment. Before that, I'm going to square away Jim's Ace-in-the-hole IC ethos defense.
Jim, an IC has absolutely no business intentionally pissing off beginners ever. The only thing it serves to accomplish is making a player even less responsive to your advice, which, since you're actually trying to teach us newbies how to hunt effectively, doesn't help teach the player AT ALL.
Now for the scumminess. If you were trying to make bread post prematurely this would be a contradiction of one of the pieces of evidence you used here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2149298#msg2149298). In this post, you said that his reactionary behavior was scummy. BUT, with the post I just quoted, you admitted to actually trying to intentionally provoke breadbocks beforehand. This means that the whole operation you have going here is a trap to get an emotional player framed by intentionally provoking him to respond in a reactive way, and then using it as evidence against him. That is scummy. In fact, that is the scummiest thing I've ever heard of.
Jim, there is a difference between pissing someone off to see if they drop scumtells and pissing someone off in order to engineer your own. Vote Jim Groovester.
You agree with my (half written) idea, and say it better than I would be able to.
Vote: Jim Groovester
Post by: Heliman on April 06, 2011, 02:12:38 am
...
Cmon TKoE we need more substance than that! at least give us an ordered list of who you think is the most scummiest and why!
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 06, 2011, 02:17:47 am
Jim, an IC has absolutely no business intentionally pissing off beginners ever. The only thing it serves to accomplish is making a player even less responsive to your advice, which, since you're actually trying to teach us newbies how to hunt effectively, doesn't help teach the player AT ALL.
I don't have to be gentle to teach you. You're a bright group; you can handle a little abuse. Better get used to it, because what I'm doing is pretty tame.
Now for the scumminess. If you were trying to make bread post prematurely this would be a contradiction of one of the pieces of evidence you used here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2149298#msg2149298). In this post, you said that his reactionary behavior was scummy. BUT, with the post I just quoted, you admitted to actually trying to intentionally provoke breadbocks beforehand. This means that the whole operation you have going here is a trap to get an emotional player framed by intentionally provoking him to respond in a reactive way, and then using it as evidence against him. That is scummy. In fact, that is the scummiest thing I've ever heard of.
Jim, there is a difference between pissing someone off to see if they drop scumtells and pissing someone off in order to engineer your own. Vote Jim Groovester.
Ha ha, no.
Testing reactions is a perfectly legitimate way to scum hunt. Although that's not explicitly what I was doing. I just wanted him to hurry up and fucking do something. As my patience wears thin I get more and more abrasive and my patience was pretty worn down after waiting three days for his mute to expire, and even the runaround he was giving me before that point. But the reaction I got to it was pretty damn telling.
You don't have a problem with me trying to get him to post sooner than he would have liked, do you? I'd rather put him on the spot and see what he has to say because that's going to be a much more honest reaction than waiting for him to prepare and make shit up.
How about this: Ignore what I've done, and tell me what you think of breadbocks. Because you seem to be saying that he's some sort of panicky noob, and let me tell you, he doesn't meet the criteria. Panicky noobs panic, and if he's careful enough to ditch the game as soon as the heat turns up on him (he's avoiding this game despite posting elsewhere on the forum) then his fragile emotional state is not something I have to worry about.
You agree with my (half written) idea, and say it better than I would be able to.
Vote: Jim Groovester
Spell it out, TKoE. You don't get to ride on Heliman's arguments, you lazy bandwagoner.
And you called yourself experienced. I've never been more unimpressed in my life.
Post by: breadbocks on April 06, 2011, 03:58:22 am
So here's the part actually finished.
No. Just no. I'm saying we (the non-ICs) should keep on edge, and make sure we (the non-ICs) don't assume you (The ICs) are townies because you are helping. At least for you.If you want names, I'd say Jim, and Webadict, because it makes us depend on them more, and thus subconsciously more trusting.Are... you being serious?
You are suspicious of us because we're good players?
Hahahaha. Nice attitude. It also means you've got no information and are basically pulling reasons from your nether regions. It's like, "Who can I lynch with the most bogus reason?"
In fact, you're just attacking anyone that points at you.
So, really, you've got about one post to make a legitimate case.
Jim, I wouldn't touch with a 39 and 1/2 foot pole.
Now, here are some facts that couldn't possibly be twisted without falsifying them.
- Since the beginning of day one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2110183#msg2110183), inclusive of that post and this post, there have been 234 posts.
- Of those 234 posts, 15 were the mod/Ottofar/IronyOwl (WTF, mate?), leaving 219 of the player's posts.
- Heliman: 39
- Supercharazard/Webadict:33
- Bdthmag/OrangeBottle: 11
- Me:30
- CrownofFire: 22
- The King of Eggs: 1
- major_sephiroth: 19 (Dead)
- Jim Groovester: 41
- Toaster: 15 (Dead)
NEXT TIME: We put this breakdown to use.
Post by: Heliman on April 06, 2011, 04:12:31 am
Well isn't that just be fine and dandy. It all makes sense now, if it weren't for the fact that you weren't doing any real teaching by provoking breadbocks.Jim, an IC has absolutely no business intentionally pissing off beginners ever. The only thing it serves to accomplish is making a player even less responsive to your advice, which, since you're actually trying to teach us newbies how to hunt effectively, doesn't help teach the player AT ALL.I don't have to be gentle to teach you. You're a bright group; you can handle a little abuse. Better get used to it, because what I'm doing is pretty tame.
Testing reactions is a perfectly legitimate way to scum hunt. Although that's not explicitly what I was doing. I just wanted him to hurry up and fucking do something. As my patience wears thin I get more and more abrasive and my patience was pretty worn down after waiting three days for his mute to expire, and even the runaround he was giving me before that point.
Patience is key in this game. You know this. You know that he'd eventually make a post either making a proper argument or dismissing his argument altogether, and if he stopped posting you could just as easily call for him to be lynched for lurking like scum. For some reason though, you were impatient. Why is that Jim? If you're worried about others thinking that you're not doing enough scum hunting then you are scum.
But the reaction I got to it was pretty damn telling.I don't care. I'm not here to defend breadbocks, his indecision, or his aggressive tendencies.
You don't have a problem with me trying to get him to post sooner than he would have liked, do you? I'd rather put him on the spot and see what he has to say because that's going to be a much more honest reaction than waiting for him to prepare and make shit up.
Yeah I do have a problem with this Jim, because this is different than pressing an accusation. I have recently realized that the last fucking thing in the world a townie should do is press another player to submit an offensive argument hastily (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2121740#msg2121740). Arguments must be made with the intent to persuade the other townies who read it. Always. Town is not going to listen to an argument that is half-assed, and done without proper deliberation. Trying to push breadbocks into delivering an argument isn't going to make him more honest, it's only going to make him look more unbelievable. Which is exactly what you want.
How about this: Ignore what I've done,What? No. In fact, Hell no. There is no way in hell I'm going to ignore anything in this thread, it's bad for scumhunting.
and tell me what you think of breadbocks. Because you seem to be saying that he's some sort of panicky noob, and let me tell you, he doesn't meet the criteria. Panicky noobs panic, and if he's careful enough to ditch the game as soon as the heat turns up on him (he's avoiding this game despite posting elsewhere on the forum) then his fragile emotional state is not something I have to worry about.Wrong adjective. Not panicky, aggressive. Easily riled and dogged in his pursuit, and too prideful to give up the when he has no leg to stand on. It's amiable, but not good scum hunting. It's also not a red herring I'm going to be distracted from.
Post by: Heliman on April 06, 2011, 04:21:11 am
In this quote I'm listing lurkiness! I'm going somewhere with this guys!Speaking of not ignoring posts, I'd like to be the first to say that I have no idea where the hell you are going with this.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 06, 2011, 05:16:47 am
NEXT TIME: We put this breakdown to use.
AUGH it's just painful. Soooooo painful.
You're doing every lame trick I've ever seen any scum do and it's just painful to watch.
When are you going to build a case? I don't give a flying fuck if you counted everybody's post page by page. You wasted all that effort when you could've put it into making a more substantial case.
AUGH it's just so obvious but I can't convince anybody because they're all a bunch of egoistic newbies who think they know what's what ARGH.
Well isn't that just be fine and dandy. It all makes sense now, if it weren't for the fact that you weren't doing any real teaching by provoking breadbocks.Jim, an IC has absolutely no business intentionally pissing off beginners ever. The only thing it serves to accomplish is making a player even less responsive to your advice, which, since you're actually trying to teach us newbies how to hunt effectively, doesn't help teach the player AT ALL.I don't have to be gentle to teach you. You're a bright group; you can handle a little abuse. Better get used to it, because what I'm doing is pretty tame.
Bullshit. I'm always teaching. If not directly then by example.
And hmmm, if I tell breadbocks he's scummy for dodging questions, I wonder what he should do in future questions? (Hint: Not dodge questions.) See? Teaching. That's what goes on in mafia games. People tell you what you're doing is scummy, you learn what to do in future games.
I don't want to hear any more criticism about my teaching while I'm in the fucking middle of doing it. You don't have an educated enough opinion of the game to actually give me legitimate criticism anyway. If you've got the same opinion after the game is over, bring it up and I'll be more than receptive. But right now, you'll just have to accept my heavy handed authority and do it gladly.
Got it, fucknuts? Nah, of course not. You already know everything there is to know, why without even completing your first game. Shit just comes naturally to some people. People like you. A year and a half's worth of experience of almost constant playing isn't worth shit when you've got talent like yours coursing through your veins.
Testing reactions is a perfectly legitimate way to scum hunt. Although that's not explicitly what I was doing. I just wanted him to hurry up and fucking do something. As my patience wears thin I get more and more abrasive and my patience was pretty worn down after waiting three days for his mute to expire, and even the runaround he was giving me before that point.
Patience is key in this game. You know this. You know that he'd eventually make a post either making a proper argument or dismissing his argument altogether, and if he stopped posting you could just as easily call for him to be lynched for lurking like scum. For some reason though, you were impatient. Why is that Jim? If you're worried about others thinking that you're not doing enough scum hunting then you are scum.
Yep, you're right. You've been playing mafia for the span of two weeks and you clearly know everything there is to know.
Are you really so dense that you can't see the merits of putting people into uncomfortable positions and seeing what they do? That should be obvious. I mean, I just explained it to you in the post you're quoting.
I wasn't going to wait for him to post, because like I already explained, I suspected he was trying to dodge questions even before he got the mute. He hasn't really changed my mind at all about that.
But the reaction I got to it was pretty damn telling.I don't care. I'm not here to defend breadbocks, his indecision, or his aggressive tendencies.
Why not? 'Cause you're scumbuddies?????????
You don't have a problem with me trying to get him to post sooner than he would have liked, do you? I'd rather put him on the spot and see what he has to say because that's going to be a much more honest reaction than waiting for him to prepare and make shit up.
Yeah I do have a problem with this Jim, because this is different than pressing an accusation. I have recently realized that the last fucking thing in the world a townie should do is press another player to submit an offensive argument hastily (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2121740#msg2121740). Arguments must be made with the intent to persuade the other townies who read it. Always. Town is not going to listen to an argument that is half-assed, and done without proper deliberation. Trying to push breadbocks into delivering an argument isn't going to make him more honest, it's only going to make him look more unbelievable. Which is exactly what you want.
Are you fucking kidding me.
Are you fucking kidding me?
Let the bastard stand on his own, Heliman. He doesn't need you to stride in here and attack the big bad IC for him. Why are you defending him? He's not your problem.
And you've got it all wrong. The problem isn't pressing people into making arguments hastily. If they're town they should offer up their arguments early and freely (something breadbocks hasn't done, you'll note). The problem is that breadbocks is incapable of making an argument, either because he's inexperienced, scum, both, or he just hasn't really tried. Giving breadbocks more time likely isn't going to improve his arguments because, in case you didn't notice, he was gone for three days while the game was active. Plenty of time to sit on your hands and think about the game, and what did he come back with? Not a damn thing.
You're not learning the right lesson from this. You shouldn't be learning any lesson, in actuality. The only thing you should be learning is about the player involved. If there were a general lesson here I would be pointing them out.
How about this: Ignore what I've done,What? No. In fact, Hell no. There is no way in hell I'm going to ignore anything in this thread, it's bad for scumhunting.
I meant momentarily, genius. Did you really think I asked you to give me a free pass?
Separate my words from my name, and look at my arguments against breadbocks, and tell me what you see. That's what I asked you to do.
and tell me what you think of breadbocks. Because you seem to be saying that he's some sort of panicky noob, and let me tell you, he doesn't meet the criteria. Panicky noobs panic, and if he's careful enough to ditch the game as soon as the heat turns up on him (he's avoiding this game despite posting elsewhere on the forum) then his fragile emotional state is not something I have to worry about.Wrong adjective. Not panicky, aggressive. Easily riled and dogged in his pursuit, and too prideful to give up the when he has no leg to stand on. It's amiable, but not good scum hunting. It's also not a red herring I'm going to be distracted from.
You are so incredibly clueless it's embarrassing.
If he has no leg to stand on, why is he pursuing at all, huh? Don't you think there might be a problem with that? Just a little teency problem? Anything? Anything at all?
There's nothing meritorious about holding onto a suspicion without evidence. That's objectively terrible play, and you shouldn't be rushing to his defense for it.
In this quote I'm listing lurkiness! I'm going somewhere with this guys!Speaking of not ignoring posts, I'd like to be the first to say that I have no idea where the hell you are going with this.
Contributions like counting posts is a common scum tactic. While superficially they appear helpful, scum hide behind them so they don't have to do any scumhunting.
You'll notice that lack of scumhunting is something plaguing breadbocks.
Post by: webadict on April 06, 2011, 07:32:57 am
WUBAOh me, oh my. That is stupid, especially at the end of the day. But, I don't really have time to argue, and it really makes no difference to me, especially since it doesn't hardly matterToaster was suspicious of Heliman as of yesterday (which would clearly make my job easier as scum), and before that, he was voting major_sephiroth. So, somewhere in there, you seem to have fabricated this.He was merely doing a random question with a vote press, which he took awhile to get around to answering.
You agree with my (half written) idea, and say it better than I would be able to.This is the biggest bandwagon you can get without quoting someone else's post. You can't possibly get any worse than you are right now.
Vote: Jim Groovester
You're not making any sort of case, you're bandwagoning, you're leeching other's ideas, you've been lurking nearly all of Day 1 and Day 2, and when you finally show up, you majorly contribute with this post.
Could you possibly have not even tried to further the argument? Bring up quotes for evidence?
Not acceptable at all King of Eggs.
No, he's definitely being scummy, but you're really making them all mad. I'd suggest stopping that, as you're one vote away from hammer. You might want to try not cursing. It's might be a pain to stop, but it certainly makes you sound less angry.NEXT TIME: We put this breakdown to use.
AUGH it's just painful. Soooooo painful.
You're doing every lame trick I've ever seen any scum do and it's just painful to watch.
When are you going to build a case? I don't give a flying fuck if you counted everybody's post page by page. You wasted all that effort when you could've put it into making a more substantial case.
AUGH it's just so obvious but I can't convince anybody because they're all a bunch of egoistic newbies who think they know what's what ARGH.
In fact, the only one who has brought up a legitimate case against Jim is Heliman. breadbocks and The King of Eggs haven't said anything. BRING UP A CASE. I will lynch you both if you can't come up with a real case, something that you both seem to have passed up for OMGUSing and bandwagoing, respectively.
And why isn't Crown here? I have to say, looking back, you weren't nearly as scummy as I had thought you were, but you're now skipping out on Day 2, and haven't made any statements on anyone's scummitude.
Now, here are some facts that couldn't possibly be twisted without falsifying them.I'd like to point out that if you're trying to use lurking as a scumtell, then you're not doing it right. You usually attempt to bring that person out to say more, gather what they say as more evidence, and then push them. If they refuse to come out and play, then they're going to get themselves lynched.The breakdown of the remaining 219 is as follows:
- Since the beginning of day one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2110183#msg2110183), inclusive of that post and this post, there have been 234 posts.
- Of those 234 posts, 15 were the mod/Ottofar/IronyOwl (WTF, mate?), leaving 219 of the player's posts.
As this breakdown shows, the most lurky has been TKoE, closely followed by Bdthmag/OrangeBottle, (Didn't he (OB) officially replace Bd halfway into D1? If so, why was he (OB) silent for the entire day) then you get the two dead people, Crown, me, Super/Web, Heliman, and finally Jim.
- Heliman: 39
- Supercharazard/Webadict:33
- Bdthmag/OrangeBottle: 11
- Me:30
- CrownofFire: 22
- The King of Eggs: 1
- major_sephiroth: 19 (Dead)
- Jim Groovester: 41
- Toaster: 15 (Dead)
NEXT TIME: We put this breakdown to use.
This also leads to a "What's the point?" post. You haven't brought anything new to your own arguments, and I doubt you have any idea where you're going with this information.
I'll be back later. There had better be more posts when I get back.
Post by: The King of Eggs on April 06, 2011, 09:19:32 am
I shouldn't have joined this game at this point in my life. Oh well. I am fully aware that I am royally sucking right now thank you people.
Once more for emphasis. I know I am failing at mafia.
And this is just going to make this worse.
Jim: My case against you is simple.
A) you come into the game trying to control the town with the flimsy excuse of "Im an IC. I'm teaching you". This is not a good thing. Never. Under any circumstances. Ever!
Either you are scum; explanation not needed
Or you are a human town; I.e. Able to be blindsided.
B) your attitude: you crash around like a bull in a pen trying to "get a 'subconscious and unfiltered' reaction". I have no problems with this in an SE+only game. But in a game where many of the players have never played the game, all you achieve is a panicked response. Which only serves to create a intrapersonal barrier between the town and your target. Which is also bad. Even if you are doing it for the right reasons. You are only giving the scum something to latch onto. I highly doubt that an experienced player could miss this.
Which leads to my next point.
You say you have " a year and a half" of playing under your belt? I have over 2. So fliping what? Stop trying to make yourself seem infallible. You are not (nor is anyone). You also say that talent is nothing compared to experience. I beg to differ. I know of numerous IRC reasons why a noob player in their first game could be better than you. Or me. Or anyone. To you I now ask. Tell me If you will. Your:
True age
Occupation
Qualifications relevant to Mafia (IRC)
And explain why these obviously make you any better a player than my dog.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 06, 2011, 11:22:53 am
Jim, I wouldn't touch with a 39 and 1/2 foot pole.Except you just said that he was your main scumpick!
Quote from: Breadbocks
If you want names, I'd say Jim, and Webadict, because it makes us depend on them more, and thus subconsciously more trusting.You should be pressing this guy. Not completely ignoring his posts, not skimming them, not counting them. Examine them!
Quote
Now, here are some facts that couldn't possibly be twisted without falsifying them.No, if you looked, I officially replaced BD after major_sephiroth was lynched.The breakdown of the remaining 219 is as follows:
- Since the beginning of day one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2110183#msg2110183), inclusive of that post and this post, there have been 234 posts.
- Of those 234 posts, 15 were the mod/Ottofar/IronyOwl (WTF, mate?), leaving 219 of the player's posts.
As this breakdown shows, the most lurky has been TKoE, closely followed by Bdthmag/OrangeBottle, (Didn't he (OB) officially replace Bd halfway into D1? If so, why was he (OB) silent for the entire day) then you get the two dead people, Crown, me, Super/Web, Heliman, and finally Jim.
- Heliman: 39
- Supercharazard/Webadict:33
- Bdthmag/OrangeBottle: 11
- Me:30
- CrownofFire: 22
- The King of Eggs: 1
- major_sephiroth: 19 (Dead)
- Jim Groovester: 41
- Toaster: 15 (Dead)
NEXT TIME: We put this breakdown to use.
Quote
So, Breadbocks, why are you being so extremely overdefensive?You never even acknowledged my question, mind you.
Breadbocks. Stop giving us useless shit information and answer me.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 06, 2011, 02:05:40 pm
A) you come into the game trying to control the town with the flimsy excuse of "Im an IC. I'm teaching you". This is not a good thing. Never. Under any circumstances. Ever!
Either you are scum; explanation not needed
Or you are a human town; I.e. Able to be blindsided.
I've never used my ICness to direct people where to lynch. If I said "This player is scum, trust me because I am the IC," then maybe you would be on to something about me trying to direct the town with my experience.
But I've explained fully every suspicion I've ever had and let the arguments do the convincing. That's not controlling the town. That's called playing the game.
Do you actually care whether I am scum? Because you don't really seem sure. Saying "He's maybe scum but he could be town too but I'm not really sure," is horribly lazy. Why don't you find out instead of bandwagoning me.
B) your attitude: you crash around like a bull in a pen trying to "get a 'subconscious and unfiltered' reaction". I have no problems with this in an SE+only game. But in a game where many of the players have never played the game, all you achieve is a panicked response. Which only serves to create a intrapersonal barrier between the town and your target. Which is also bad. Even if you are doing it for the right reasons. You are only giving the scum something to latch onto. I highly doubt that an experienced player could miss this.
I've played enough games to know when I'm getting a panicked response. If I thought I was making breadbocks panic and flip out and make panicked noob mistakes I'd be easing off of him, because I've played plenty of games with new players, have seen it a bazillion times, and know the signs.
breadbocks isn't doing that. He's actively avoiding making a case. If he's careful enough to know when not to post then his isn't a panicked noob response. That means I don't have to hold back.
How about you identify the signs in breadbocks that make him look like a panicked noob. If you and Heliman are going to make an issue of breadbocks being an panicked noob then you better, at the very least, be able to identify the signs.
Which leads to my next point.
You say you have " a year and a half" of playing under your belt? I have over 2. So fliping what? Stop trying to make yourself seem infallible. You are not (nor is anyone). You also say that talent is nothing compared to experience. I beg to differ. I know of numerous IRC reasons why a noob player in their first game could be better than you. Or me. Or anyone. To you I now ask. Tell me If you will. Your:
True age
Occupation
Qualifications relevant to Mafia (IRC)
And explain why these obviously make you any better a player than my dog.
No.
This is Heliman's exact case, with its exact flaws. Do you have anything original? Because this is recycled garbage to justify a crappy bandwagon. In other words, abjectly insufficient.
No, he's definitely being scummy, but you're really making them all mad. I'd suggest stopping that, as you're one vote away from hammer. You might want to try not cursing. It's might be a pain to stop, but it certainly makes you sound less angry.
I really don't think that would matter. They're finding reasons to suspect me, ignoring my advice as an IC, even downright accusing me of abusing my ICness. Not swearing isn't going to solve the problem.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 06, 2011, 02:11:42 pm
There are no Hammers in BM.
Post by: breadbocks on April 06, 2011, 03:00:51 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 06, 2011, 03:12:09 pm
"Nah, don't worry guys. It's coming. I know I've said that before, at least twice, but I mean it this time."
Post by: Heliman on April 06, 2011, 03:42:43 pm
This is Heliman's exact case, with its exact flaws.*falls off chair*
THE HELL IT IS!
Should I reiterate my case or are you just that damn avoidant about this?
My case is about you trying to anger bread into posting early by LYING about your true thoughts about him being muted. Town doesn't need to lie, you could have easily argued that bread was lurking beforehand or was pulling bullshit information and I would have believed it, but you didn't.
Unlike TKoE, I don't have the time or the actual willpower to argue at length with you about your shitty ethos arguments. You can bitch about it later, so how about instead of calling me an idiot or calling yourself a goddamn ineffable god, you tell me how the fuck you don't look scummy by trying to do this?
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 06, 2011, 03:54:43 pm
Votecount:
Heliman - 0 -
webadict - 0 -
Orangebottle - 0 -
Breadbocks - 2 - Jim Groovester, Orangebottle
CrownofFire - 0 -
The King of Eggs - 1 - webadict
Jim Groovester - 3 - breadbocks, The King of Eggs, Heliman
Not Voting - 0 - CrownofFire
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 0 -
Shorten - 0 -
Extend - 0 -
Shorten - 0 -
In its current state, the day will end with a Jim Groovester Lynch.
The Day ends to Thursday, 8PM GMT.
You need 3 to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 06, 2011, 04:25:04 pm
This is Heliman's exact case, with its exact flaws.*falls off chair*
THE HELL IT IS!
Should I reiterate my case or are you just that damn avoidant about this?
My case is about you trying to anger bread into posting early by LYING about your true thoughts about him being muted. Town doesn't need to lie, you could have easily argued that bread was lurking beforehand or was pulling bullshit information and I would have believed it, but you didn't.
Unlike TKoE, I don't have the time or the actual willpower to argue at length with you about your shitty ethos arguments. You can bitch about it later, so how about instead of calling me an idiot or calling yourself a goddamn ineffable god, you tell me how the fuck you don't look scummy by trying to do this?
What the hell are you talking about? I haven't lied at all.
Quoted for your convenience is all the posts where I try and call breadbocks out.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So I find the idea that you think I was trying to manipulate breadbocks into an early emotional and scummy response utterly ridiculous because I've been trying to get his scummy ass to talk for days. breadbocks knew this was coming, and he knew I wanted him to talk.
So how the hell did I lie about my true thoughts about his mute? By being sarcastic and provocative? Give me a break. Both of those have their purpose in a mafia game and they're useful tools. I've already explained this.
Post by: Heliman on April 06, 2011, 04:35:40 pm
I wasn't being serious. Of course I knew he didn't get muted just to avoid my question. I was being a dick to provoke him into responding sooner rather than later.
Who do you suspect? Are you fully caught up on the thread now?
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 06, 2011, 04:44:38 pm
I explained fully what I was doing when I was asked about it, because it wasn't obvious to Orangebottle.
Did you think I was being serious?
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 06, 2011, 05:33:56 pm
Don't worry, dude! I'll wait for you. It would be a shame to let the deadline pass without hearing your case.
Post by: breadbocks on April 06, 2011, 06:35:27 pm
Post by: webadict on April 06, 2011, 09:16:50 pm
A) you come into the game trying to control the town with the flimsy excuse of "Im an IC. I'm teaching you". This is not a good thing. Never. Under any circumstances. Ever!I don't think he's ever said that his IC status should be a reason to vote with him. That's a lie right there. I believe his goal is to teach you, and no where in there is he forcing you to do what he says. If anything, I've forced you to do more by making you make a case. Wanna vote me too?
Either you are scum; explanation not needed
Or you are a human town; I.e. Able to be blindsided.
B) your attitude: you crash around like a bull in a pen trying to "get a 'subconscious and unfiltered' reaction". I have no problems with this in an SE+only game. But in a game where many of the players have never played the game, all you achieve is a panicked response. Which only serves to create a intrapersonal barrier between the town and your target. Which is also bad. Even if you are doing it for the right reasons. You are only giving the scum something to latch onto. I highly doubt that an experienced player could miss this.And your entire case was leeched from Heliman, which would make YOU one of the players that is latching onto a case. You seemed to have no problem with it before Heliman voted for Jim.
Which leads to my next point.I have three years of mafia experience. Do you want to get into this? His job and my job are to teach you how to play the game. He teaches it through aggression. It is his way. I hate it too, but there's nothing scummy about it. That would be hypocritical of me to call his play style any more scummy than my play style, especially since I have lied, misdirected, buddied, defended, and backstabbed as Town.
You say you have " a year and a half" of playing under your belt? I have over 2. So fliping what? Stop trying to make yourself seem infallible. You are not (nor is anyone). You also say that talent is nothing compared to experience. I beg to differ. I know of numerous IRC reasons why a noob player in their first game could be better than you. Or me. Or anyone. To you I now ask. Tell me If you will. Your:
True age
Occupation
Qualifications relevant to Mafia (IRC)
There is a reason why I am King of the Mafia. It's not because I am infallible. We are all prone to our mistakes and our flaws. It is because, even if my hands are tied, I will fight. If I could do it alone as Town, I would. I can kill an entire scumteam off on my own in some cases.
So, if you want someone that flaunts his experience, why not lynch me? Or yourself? Clearly, you think you know better. Well, you don't.
And explain why these obviously make you any better a player than my dog.Because your dog can't type, doesn't think complex thoughts, drools everywhere, and is a dog. He also poops outside and eats garbage in a bowl.
Explain why you have any right to think your play style is better than anyone else? In what way is aggression toward a target unwarranted? I think that, if you're planning on using that line of thinking, you better explain how it makes him scum. All you're saying is that beginner's get flustered by it, but really, that's a defense for breadbocks, not a scum tell on Jim.
If people are going to take everything literally, then we're going to have actual murders occurring.I wasn't being serious. Of course I knew he didn't get muted just to avoid my question. I was being a dick to provoke him into responding sooner rather than later.
Who do you suspect? Are you fully caught up on the thread now?
Sorry it took me this long to post. I was playing chess. They finally got the board outside! I got to play the only real challenging kid on this campus... MYSELF! Nah, that'd be silly. It was my evil twin.
Post by: breadbocks on April 06, 2011, 09:47:24 pm
Since this post is a case on Jim, we'll focus on those 40 posts he made. At a glance, it should seem like he's been being the most useful. After all, he's made the most posts by a good margin. However, how many of them have been actually useful? Jim, you so conveniently just provided me with the proper term. Active lurking. Now, let me break down those forty posts even further. This time, into posts with him scumhunting, posts teaching, and useless posts.
First, the pool of posts. 1 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2110221#msg2110221) 2 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2110409#msg2110409) 3 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2111129#msg2111129) 4 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2111341#msg2111341) 5 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2111508#msg2111508) 6 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2112971#msg2112971) 7 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2113277#msg2113277) 8 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2113291#msg2113291) 9 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2113332#msg2113332) 10 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2113512#msg2113512) 11 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2115155#msg2115155) 12 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2115585#msg2115585) 13 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2117095#msg2117095) 14 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2118094#msg2118094) 15 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2119296#msg2119296) 16 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2119332#msg2119332) 17 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2119401#msg2119401) 18 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2119513#msg2119513) 19 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2120810#msg2120810) 20 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2121787#msg2121787) 21 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2122096#msg2122096) 22 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2122425#msg2122425) 23 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2124891#msg2124891) 24 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2126003#msg2126003) 25 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2126808#msg2126808) 26 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2129661#msg2129661) 27 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2131249#msg2131249) 28 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2132780#msg2132780) 29 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2133799#msg2133799) 30 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2135127#msg2135127) 31 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2135577#msg2135577) 32 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2136077#msg2136077) 33 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2148597#msg2148597) 34 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2149020#msg2149020) 35 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2153936#msg2153936) 36 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2154003#msg2154003) 37 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2154069#msg2154069) 38 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2154161#msg2154161) 39 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2149298#msg2149298) 40 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2154873#msg2154873)
So, because I feel a compulsion to categorize these,
- Teaching: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 17, 20, 22, 24, 35,
- Useless: 12, 13, 14, 16, 21, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 33
- Scumhunting/Pressuring: 7, 8, 15, 18, 19, 23, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34,
Now, I know I hear you saying “What use is any of this?” Well, pay close attention to the numbers’ position. Note how for every posts in which he actually scumhunted, he had a post which when looked at on its own is undeniably active lurking. Also, take note of how he didn’t get down to doing much of anything scumhunting wise until more than 2 days in the game. And he says my wish of waiting for everyone to post in D2 was passive. Well what do you say to the fact you did nothing but tell people what to do for what was a fair part of D1? Then take note of 23, and how he admits to passivity. As the day ends, he spends the time ranting about WIFOM, how were incorrectly using the term, and how it should be ignore. Then what is the thing that sets him off on D2? How I unintentionally said WIFOM in stating my thoughts, and he then ignores his own advise and pays attention to it. Hurp derp busted. So tell me now. How do you plan on defending yourself against this?
(Note: Due to the fact the numbering got jumbled up, I got lost after 35, never the less, that’s still a large enough sample to convict on. I can’t delay posting this any longer, because that will give Jim a prosthetic leg to stand on in his silly little argument against me.)
Post by: webadict on April 06, 2011, 09:56:48 pm
Now, I know I hear you saying “What use is any of this?” Well, pay close attention to the numbers’ position. Note how for every posts in which he actually scumhunted, he had a post which when looked at on its own is undeniably active lurking. Also, take note of how he didn’t get down to doing much of anything scumhunting wise until more than 2 days in the game.What. Let's forget that we're playing the Number 23 here and point out the obvious hole in your argument: Scumhunting versus RVS wouldn't start until later in the game, accounting for that two days.
I'm assuming this, since you also included no quotes. And I don't feel like searching for what you consider scumhunting and what you consider useless, especially since some posts fall in both?
Post by: The King of Eggs on April 06, 2011, 10:12:43 pm
I would explain but seeing as you have quoted your own mistakes I shall let you explain to the town exactly why you turned my rather self destructive post, into a prime example arrogance.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 06, 2011, 10:35:58 pm
So tell me now. How do you plan on defending yourself against this?
Easily.
Firstly, you don't know what active lurking is. If I were active lurking I'd be doing what you were doing up until just now. Posting, but contentlessly. Assuring everyone I was going to make a decent post eventually. It's completely impossible for me to make useful contributions but active lurk every other post because the two are mutually exclusive to each other.
Secondly, the WIFOM contradicion you accuse me of is completely wrong. I told everybody to ignore WIFOM, because watching everybody moronically try to out think each other was an exceptionally painful display of beginner's incompetence. I also told everybody to stop fucking doing it. So what do you do during Day 2? WIFOM, against my advice. It's my job to tell you when you're wrong, and you were wrong. Instructing new players takes much higher priority than rigidly following the letter of my advice, which is something that should be obvious. I seriously can't believe you suggested I'm scum for doing my job as an IC.
Thirdly, you should pretty much just get rid of the useless category. I have no useless posts.
Fourthly, you're creatively misinterpreting events. During Day 1, I was instructing people, yes, but I was also waiting for people to respond to my proddings. People like you. Further, your WIFOM wasn't what set me off, it was your completely passive Day 2 opener. How you wanted to wait around for suspicions to fall into your lap by waiting for everyone else to post. The WIFOM was a symptom of the problem that you didn't (and still don't) have a case for voting me.
Fifthly, screaming "NUH UH YOU DID IT TOO" doesn't absolve you of any of your scumminess. I mean, seriously. You've taken everything I've accused you of, and tried to find an example from my play narrowly related to compare it to, and make some sort of equivalence to it. That's not a defense for your scumminess. That's not a defense at all.
In totality, you're completely disingenuous.
Your case sucks. Go hang.
Way to blatantly ignore half my post webadict
I would explain but seeing as you have quoted your own mistakes I shall let you explain to the town exactly why you turned my rather self destructive post, into a prime example arrogance.
But WUBA's not going to do that so you're going to have to do it yourself.
Heliman, I want to know if you honestly thought I was being serious when I said breadbocks got muted to avoid me.
Post by: webadict on April 06, 2011, 10:41:24 pm
I'm going to point out the things he's doing wrong, since that's my job. Not doing so would be disastrous.Way to blatantly ignore half my post webadict
I would explain but seeing as you have quoted your own mistakes I shall let you explain to the town exactly why you turned my rather self destructive post, into a prime example arrogance.
But WUBA's not going to do that so you're going to have to do it yourself.
Way to blatantly ignore half my post webadictI did it because the whole point is that being arrogant doesn't make you scum. Being experienced doesn't make you scum. Being aggressive doesn't make you scum. It's doing things that show you are scum. You haven't proven that his being aggressive makes him scum.
I would explain but seeing as you have quoted your own mistakes I shall let you explain to the town exactly why you turned my rather self destructive post, into a prime example arrogance.
Your case was leeched from Heliman, and you successfully added how somehow being aggressive is a scumtell. It's not. At least, not the way you seem to think it is.
You seemed to think his being an IC makes you scum. Well, obviously it makes me scum too, doesn't it? Seeing as how I've been telling you guys what would be a good way to play, you'd have to say that too, wouldn't you? Clearly, I'm shoving my personal agenda at you, what with my experience and know-how. Wanna know what's a REALLY good idea? Lynching yourself! Dur dur dur, do it cuz I is smrt.
Point out WHERE Jim says to do things because he's an IC.
Let's see where you seem to think I misunderstood point B... Oh right. We should treat beginner's differently because they're beginner's. That's about as inane as saying, "I'll go easy on you." I don't want people to go easy on me, and if they do, I don't want to be told that. I think you have to look for different things in newer players. That's the case you should be making. You're not. You're saying that Jim is treating breadbocks unfairly, yet he treated major_sephiroth the same way, and he treats EVERYONE the same way, so why is it only now you have a problem with it?
What did I seemingly miss in your post to Jim? Clearly, I should've answered the whole thing, since it wasn't directed at me. Hmm. My bad. I'll remember to answer everything all of the time.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 06, 2011, 10:44:42 pm
Right, before I get started here, my internet's going to be fairly limited for the next week. Internet's expensive in Disney World, and I'm flying down there tomorrow. I can probably get it for one or two 24-hour periods while I'm there, which would both be within the next day assuming there's no extension, which would work out just fine. I can look into other options, but that's probably it. I'll be busy in the actual parks for most of the time, but I'll try to post as much as I can. If all this is too much hassle for you, just replace me.
Also, webadict is an egotistical, arrogant bastard, and I really like that.
Right, now then, breadbocks, you seem to be in the interesting situation of accusing the (remaining) IC of well... doing his job, I suppose. He's supposed to making those little "useless" posts. Each and every post you have listed as "useless" has some kind of point to it (except 16, but that was just fucking around). 12 is clarifying because Heliman was being stupid. 13 was a simple acronym help, it's not SUPPOSED to be helpful to the game. 14 was answering a question, so I don't see anything wrong with that. 16 was explained already. 21 was pointing out a useless thing that YOU posted. 23 was pushing you to explain yourself (teaching, right?). 24 was simply answering a question again. 25, 26, AND 27 were trying to get you to post, but you were muted if I'm remembering correctly. So they were useless in a way, but that wasn't due to him, now was it? (And frankly, you should have known better than to get muted for that) 33 was kind of silly, but not exactly pointless, he was trying to pressure you.
Look, the point is, all I'm seeing from you is this massive OMGUS, because he's been after you a lot. This is kind of ridiculous now, we have two separate people going after the only IC now, and how the other just was killed last night. Kind of makes you wonder, doesn't it? Makes me want to toss a vote on breadbocks. Now please don't let this day end in a no-lynch, because I'm probably only going to be able to post one more time before the day ends.
But now Heliman, that's an interesting case. I think that in this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2155050#msg2155050) post, he was quick to jump to say that he wasn't defending breadbocks, when no such accusation by Jim was given. And other than that post, he's been fairly quiet this day, don't you think?
Post by: webadict on April 06, 2011, 11:05:40 pm
See ya.
Post by: breadbocks on April 07, 2011, 03:12:34 pm
Well, Jim, since you are such a master of mafia, how should I go about persecuting you?
Post by: Orangebottle on April 07, 2011, 03:21:31 pm
BREADBOCKSQuoteSo, Breadbocks, why are you being so extremely overdefensive?You never even acknowledged my question, mind you.
Breadbocks. Stop giving us useless shit information and answer me.
How do I get your attention? Do I have to put your name in massive bolded allcaps to get you to even look at that?
Post by: Heliman on April 07, 2011, 03:48:38 pm
Heliman, I want to know if you honestly thought I was being serious when I said breadbocks got muted to avoid me.Yes, but that doesn't matter, the point is that YOU wanted to be thought serious by breadbocks.
Depending on the flip tonight, I'll be continuing this tomarrow.
I'm Scumhunting too, by making bullshit accusations that do absolutely no in depth analysis of my target's posts! I think I can make Jim look guilty by listing all of his posts in order and telling you all what I think of them from a general standpoint!*Headdesk*
*Headdesk*
*Headdesk*
Breadbocks you are doing the worst scumhunting I've seen so far. This is just... total bullshit in every way ever, I could barely finish reading all of it. A town wouldn't be so desperate to hunt like this.
Unvote
vote Breadbocks.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 07, 2011, 04:06:53 pm
I suppose the only thing for me to request at this point is Extension.
Well, Jim, since you are such a master of mafia, how should I go about persecuting you?
You can't! I'm just that good.
But I'll tell you anyway.
First, though, you have a much more critical problem than being unable to effectively convince everyone that your target is scum: You're not looking for scum. You basically just admitted that you're more interested in pushing through a lynch on me than you are at finding out whether I am scum or not. That's bad, and scummy, and you should be rightfully lynched for it. Until you start looking like you're scumhunting you'll be lynched very frequently.
The best ways (in my opinion, I'll admit that I'm sort of pulling this out of my ass) to push through a lynch of an experienced player is by using their experience against them and use their meta against them. Experienced players, the argument goes, are much more skilled than others and thus have much more regular and refined play, and therefore any mistakes they make are much more severe compared to everybody else. Thus, since it's likely that the experienced player won't make a mistake again, he should be held accountable for the mistake he did make and be lynched for it.
The meta argument is much simpler, and usually more effective. If you can successfully argue that something seems off or divergent from a player's normal style of play, then it's easy to argue that the cause for this divergence is that the player is scum.
Unfortunately for you, you can't lynch me for mistakes if I never make them, and you don't know my meta well enough to make any convincing argument on that. Were I you, I'd be trying to play up the post where I admitted to playing somewhat passively, and keep stressing that over and over again as evidence of my well-concealed scumminess.
But since you asked me about it you basically don't have a snowball's chance in hell of successfully pulling it off in this game. Maybe next time, though next time I would hope you would only try to lynch me if you thought I was scum instead of marking me for death just because.
I'm Scumhunting too, by making bullshit accusations that do absolutely no in depth analysis of my target's posts! I think I can make Jim look guilty by listing all of his posts in order and telling you all what I think of them from a general standpoint!
He doesn't have to go in depth, he just has to be clear. If he can point out where I am scummy, why what I did was scummy, and be clear about it, that's all the case he needs to make.
He needs to work on that.
Heliman, I want to know if you honestly thought I was being serious when I said breadbocks got muted to avoid me.Yes, but that doesn't matter, the point is that YOU wanted to be thought serious by breadbocks.
No, I didn't want him to think I was serious. I wanted to piss him off.
You're putting words into my mouth, scumbucket.
Breadbocks you are doing the worst scumhunting I've seen so far. This is just... total bullshit in every way ever, I could barely finish reading all of it. A town wouldn't be so desperate to hunt like this.
Unvote
vote Breadbocks.
This looks like a bus. Funny how you bailed off the Jim Groovester train as soon as it lost steam.
Withdraw extension. I don't think it's needed anymore.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 07, 2011, 05:30:49 pm
It's close to night, and sky is darkening. The world feels like a dangerous place, now that strange sounds and animal noises surround them, and the only bright light for miles is the dying glow of the campfire. Tempers are seething, and it seems to be drawing closer to another murder. Heads shake, eyes roll and brows furrow as people listen to and rebuke breadbocks' increasingly nervous and inane arguments.
Soon, weapons would be lifted. Soon, blood would be spilt.
Votecount:
Heliman - 0 -
webadict - 0 -
Orangebottle - 0 -
Breadbocks - 5 - Jim Groovester, Orangebottle, CrownofFire, webadict, Heliman
CrownofFire - 0 -
The King of Eggs - 0 -
Jim Groovester - 2 - breadbocks, The King of Eggs
Not Voting - 0 -
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 2 - Webadict, breadbocks
Shorten - 0 -
In its current state, the day will end with a Breadbocks Lynch.
With 2 for extension out of 2 needed, the day has been extended to Friday, 8PM GMT.
You need 2 to Extend and 4 to Shorten.
Post by: Heliman on April 07, 2011, 06:36:05 pm
Breadbocks you are doing the worst scumhunting I've seen so far. This is just... total bullshit in every way ever, I could barely finish reading all of it. A town wouldn't be so desperate to hunt like this.This looks like a bus. Funny how you bailed off the Jim Groovester train as soon as it lost steam.
Unvote
vote Breadbocks.
[/quote]
Funny, because I don't remember ever supporting breadbocks, or bailing off you. Breadbocks scummier than you are, even when accounting for the difference in experience.
Post by: webadict on April 07, 2011, 08:59:43 pm
Anyhow, I think now's the perfect time to push King some more. He's bound to start stealing someone's argument against breadbocks.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 07, 2011, 09:20:55 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 07, 2011, 09:28:23 pm
Post by: Heliman on April 08, 2011, 01:14:49 am
Post by: breadbocks on April 08, 2011, 01:34:07 am
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 08, 2011, 01:43:46 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 08, 2011, 04:18:08 pm
Day 2 Has Ended!
breadbocks has been Lynched!
He was a Secret Agent (Mafia)!.
breadbocks has been Lynched!
He was a Secret Agent (Mafia)!.
Votecount:
Heliman - 0 -
webadict - 0 -
Orangebottle - 0 -
Breadbocks - 5 - Jim Groovester, Orangebottle, CrownofFire, webadict, Heliman
CrownofFire - 0 -
The King of Eggs - 0 -
Jim Groovester - 2 - breadbocks, The King of Eggs
Not Voting - 0 -
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 0 -
Shorten - 0 -
It was enough. He had gone too far.
Breadbocks backed into the flames in the much-too-familiar pose as they bore down upon him. But no, he wasn't going to die an easy death in the flames; far from that. They had to be safe this time, and make sure nothing got destroyed.
He made no resistance as they carried him to the sharp rocks near the beach. He saw no way of escaping this, and he decided that he might as well die with dignity. He was fighting increasing fear and anxiousness, and half wanted to just run away - to where, then? - but none of this internal struggle was visible from the outside; to them, he was a stiff, if slightly cooperative man with a poker face that could have won millions.
But they made sure he wouldn't be winning anything for a good, long while.
Webadict carried him to an outcrop above a suitably sharp stalagmite as the others stood around its base. Here. This was the perfect spot.
They stood side by side for a while, looking at the moon, bright as day out here, in what was an untouched paradise. Now, a prison.
"Any last words?"
"You know I won't."
"Fair enough."
And with a nod to both him and the crew down below, he pushed him lightly off the cliff and watched him fall, arms spread like an eagle.
It was a sight to behold. The stalagmite impaled his stomach with a sickening squelch, and all attept at steadfastness faded from him. He gasped and shivered as he sunk bit by bit on the cruel spike, streaked with red and brown. He coughed blood as he, with what little strength he had left, tried to push himself off the spike. This only ended in it penetrating into his chest, and as the still-black tip began to poke out between his shoulderblades, he weakly uttered something - a name, perhaps - and was gone.
Heliman began rifling through his pockets first, and eventually everyone gthered around the bloodied corpse looking for, well, anything.
But no. It seems he was just another amnesiac. All they find in his pockets are some familial photos, half a pen and some (useless) change. Frustrated and deprived of yet another member of the band, they began walking home.
Something silver glinted hear the rocks. Orangebottle, the first to notice, jogged back and dug in the sand.
For lo and behold, there it was. A metal and black plastic earpiece that snugly fit around the neck and head, and would be virtually invisible once worn. Along with it, a golden badge in black leather. Everyone was, of course, shocked; they got one this time. He put on the earpiece. There was static, some sounds, and voices.
All the real work and analysis would be done tomorrow. For now they would rest, weary from a long and difficult day.
breadbocks has been lynched. He was a Secret Agent (AKA Mafia).
Night 2 has begun!
Scum & power roles, send in your night actions.
The Night will end Monday, 8PM GMT.
Scum & power roles, send in your night actions.
The Night will end Monday, 8PM GMT.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 12, 2011, 03:48:41 pm
Day 3 Has Begun!
Jim Groovester has been Nightkilled!
He was Town.
Jim Groovester has been Nightkilled!
He was Town.
Votecount:
Heliman - 0 -
webadict - 0 -
Orangebottle - 0 -
CrownofFire - 0 -
The King of Eggs - 0 -
Not Voting - 0 - Heliman, webadict, Orangebottle, CrownofFire, The King of Eggs
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 0 -
Shorten - 0 -
The sun rises upon the third day on the island of horrors, and yet another man is missing from the camp.
Jim Groovester is missing, and everyone sets out yet again to search for him. This time, though, there is no hope or optimism; this is only a search for his corpse, a confirmation of sorts so that they can be sure he's dead.
You find him impaled on a spike next to Breadbocks, already beginning to rot. Flies surround the corpses like a thick black fog, and only barely do you manage to identify the new body as his.
The technology retrieved form the agent prove to be useless; the headpiece is only tuned to one, now unused channel, and the badge only provides identification. Perhaps both will be useful in the escape, however.
The fights break out once more. Soon, there would be nobody left. This agent had to be found.
Jim Groovester has been nightkilled. He was Town.
The Day will end Friday, 8PM GMT.
You need 2 to Extend and 3 to Shorten.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 12, 2011, 03:53:03 pm
I'll be around, and if I need to I'll break my silence and give you advice. This shouldn't happen if you all stay active, since that's about the only advice I can give.
Post by: breadbocks on April 12, 2011, 06:47:17 pm
Post by: webadict on April 12, 2011, 07:28:28 pm
The King, I had some sort of case built on you but then the Night took forever. I'm afraid I've completely forgotten what I was saying in it, though.
Crown, you were fairly absent Yesterday.
I'm tuckered out right now. The chessboard opened up at my school, and I destroyed a six-year old girl. I'm going to finish BYOR roles first, and then I'll be back.
Jim, you do something or something. Tell them what to do. I didn't want to be an IC.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 12, 2011, 07:38:37 pm
By the way, I'm flying back out to St. Louis tomorrow (it's about 8:35 PM right now). Just a bit of notice so that you know that I'm going to be unavailable for the next (real-time) day. I'll be here for another three hours or so, then I'll be heading to bed. The day after tomorrow I'll be here as normal.
And webadict, I've been in Disney World for the past week and been going around like crazy trying to find time to do this. Not to mention the ridiculous costs of internet around here at $10 for 24 hours. Thankfully I've only had to get it once because most of the time that the internet has been unavailable was during the Night, but still.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 12, 2011, 08:07:53 pm
I hate you.
Who me
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 12, 2011, 08:26:52 pm
Jim, you do something or something. Tell them what to do. I didn't want to be an IC.
Okay.
Anyways, CrownofFire basically has it right. You have two lynches to find the final scum, but you're actually in a really good position because you've already found one.
Scum's greatest weakness are themselves first, then their teammates, and then finally, clever town. So keep looking for scum like you've been doing (looking at cases, seeing whether they hold any water, seeing how committed to votes people are, whether they're scumhunting or not, and so on). But you can supplement your normal scumhunting by looking at how players have interacted with the confirmed scum in previous days. Since scum (especially inexperienced scum) have a difficult time interacting with each other in a natural way, it's often easier and vastly more beneficial to not interact at all. So look for awkward or forced interactions between breadbocks and other players, or players who barely interacted with breadbocks at all, even when he was being really scummy.
However, looking at scumteam tells isn't foolproof, so you should use it more as a guide to help you narrow down your list of scum, and then look at that player's play to see if there's anything scummy. You should still only lynch a player on his own, individual scumminess.
If you're the final scum, good luck. I hope you know how to hunt like town, because that's exactly what you're going to need to do to make it through the next two days. Since you don't have a partner that you need to protect anymore (not that you should've been doing that anyway), you should have a somewhat easier job looking like you're hunting, because everybody else who's scummy is town. If you're not used to lying through your teeth and calling other people scum (a common noobscum tell), better learn quick.
And dammit, be active. Both town and scum. Abysmal activity is a great way to kill a game.
If this is too much help from beyond the grave I'll tone it down or stop completely.
Post by: breadbocks on April 12, 2011, 08:31:11 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on April 12, 2011, 08:48:43 pm
I'm quite interested on what comes up, both on what my scumbuddy puts up as false scumhunting, and what others thing of my scumbuddy...Dead men shouldn't talk so much. You're bordering on introducing WIFOM here.
Post by: Heliman on April 12, 2011, 08:56:26 pm
If this is too much help from beyond the grave I'll tone it down or stop completely.This is from the perspective of the aggressive newbie asshole, but it sounds good to me.
I'm quite interested on what comes up, both on what my scumbuddy puts up as false scumhunting, and what others thing of my scumbuddy...Ok I'm pretty sure YOU'RE not allowed to post.
...
Anyways I should start today with a what-I-think-of-everyone.
The King of Eggs: His Scumhunting pattern seems to mimic the NKs in that they both seem to be solely concentrated on the ICs. TKoE went for Jim's throat yesterday with absolutely no argument, and did the same for Web by FoSing him for calling him arrogant. The entire basis of his posts seem to be made with the intent of wanting us to ignore the ICs. I'm all for having a good rough and tumble with the senior players, but trying to discredit them is a major problem. This, plus the scared defense at the beginning and the eye raking, player leaving Omega-lurk you put us through when you were on your unexplained vacation, lead me to believe he's scum. Is there any reason why you've been so eager to attack and deface the ICs?
CrownofFire: Not a lot of scumhunting still, be sure to post some good argumenteering before you go to sleep!
Orangebottle: No information yet, be sure to scumhunt today too, there's a greater than or equal to 1 in 5 chance you'll find the right guy today!God I sound like a douche.
Webadict: same situation as Orange, but was more active yesterday. *Furrows Eyebrows,* One question though:
Jim, you do something or something. Tell them what to do. I didn't want to be an IC.Webadict: You weren't afraid to give information before you were playing, what's the difference between giving advice then and giving it now?
Post by: Toaster on April 12, 2011, 08:58:00 pm
LNCP: "... as an IC you are free to break the rule of silence."
You're not an IC, so post your bah and stay dead- this is a rule of virtually every mafia game.
As for me, here's my piece.
Stay active! You've got one down, so press your advantage. An inexperienced scum may start to panic here: they know they've got to avoid the lynch today and tomorrow at 3p LYLO to win. I've been there, and it's nerve wracking. Don't let up now. With fewer people, there won't be as many posts, it's true, but keep your eyes open and press everyone.
As Jim said, you can read over the interactions with the dead scum to get some ideas, but don't let it be the centerpiece of your attack.
Good luck and have fun!
Post by: webadict on April 12, 2011, 09:57:57 pm
Webadict: same situation as Orange, but was more active yesterday. *Furrows Eyebrows,* One question though:Because it wasn't my sole job before. I had help from the other two ICs. Now it's become my obligation, with the other two chipping in when necessary.Jim, you do something or something. Tell them what to do. I didn't want to be an IC.Webadict: You weren't afraid to give information before you were playing, what's the difference between giving advice then and giving it now?
No, scum.I hate you.
Who me
So we basically have two lynches left. Now we just need people to actually post and we can get this moving along. Time to carefully look through the thread and see what's here and who to lynch. Well I guess it's always time to do that, but now it's even more important.Don't think that that excludes you from scumhunting. In fact, you should probably hunt doubletime.
By the way, I'm flying back out to St. Louis tomorrow (it's about 8:35 PM right now). Just a bit of notice so that you know that I'm going to be unavailable for the next (real-time) day. I'll be here for another three hours or so, then I'll be heading to bed. The day after tomorrow I'll be here as normal.
And webadict, I've been in Disney World for the past week and been going around like crazy trying to find time to do this. Not to mention the ridiculous costs of internet around here at $10 for 24 hours. Thankfully I've only had to get it once because most of the time that the internet has been unavailable was during the Night, but still.
Scum's greatest weakness are themselves first, then their teammates, and then finally, clever town. So keep looking for scum like you've been doing (looking at cases, seeing whether they hold any water, seeing how committed to votes people are, whether they're scumhunting or not, and so on). But you can supplement your normal scumhunting by looking at how players have interacted with the confirmed scum in previous days. Since scum (especially inexperienced scum) have a difficult time interacting with each other in a natural way, it's often easier and vastly more beneficial to not interact at all. So look for awkward or forced interactions between breadbocks and other players, or players who barely interacted with breadbocks at all, even when he was being really scummy.Basically what Jim said. It is now acceptable to use interactions such as chainsaw defending... and other things that I'm drawing a blank on for no reason right now to scumhunt. Even the best teammates subconsciously give away their partners, so look for that.
And dammit, be active. Both town and scum. Abysmal activity is a great way to kill a game.Alright, alright. I'm setting a bad example. I hope you're happy. I'm half-awake and sweating like a pig, but I'm doing it.
The King, you stole Heliman's argument yesterday. You had no real reason to do this, and your post added nothing substantial to it, which made such an action... not okay.
I'd really like to hear what you have to say.
Post by: Heliman on April 12, 2011, 10:29:28 pm
...Bookras? No, no that's fucking impossible.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 12, 2011, 11:14:35 pm
Post by: Heliman on April 13, 2011, 12:17:08 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 13, 2011, 02:16:43 pm
Please try to be more active.
Post by: webadict on April 13, 2011, 08:18:43 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 13, 2011, 09:26:15 pm
Remember, you made a commitment when you signed up for this game. If you don't participate, you're doing a disservice to your fellow players and yourself. Also, even if you're waiting for someone to answer a question of yours, that's no excuse not to question other people- even ones you may think are town.
*Head sinks back in*
Post by: Heliman on April 13, 2011, 09:40:55 pm
Post by: The King of Eggs on April 14, 2011, 02:16:30 am
I have been forced to request replacement from this game
I am sorry.
Until my replacement is found I will try to post.
Lets start with the obvious:
Even a bunch of 5 year old kids could see that I am not dumb enough to rip into someone then NK them :/
Scum are trying to get an easy lynch (me) by killing the people I obviously don't like. Come on guys really?
Breadbocks' flip surprised me actually, I do not currently have the time to go through his interactions, but as jim says (never thought I'd say that) look at people breadbocks hadn't attacked, or more likely weakly attacked.
Again I apologize for my Inactivity, My so-called 'vacation' was an emergency trip to hospital, I have yet to recover and have little enough periods of lucidity to live, let alone enough to post a well thought out argument. (sorry for the sop story, witch this rightfully is.)
TKoE
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 14, 2011, 10:06:45 am
HiNot another one...
I have been forced to request replacement from this game
I am sorry.
Until my replacement is found I will try to post.
Lets start with the obvious:But obviously that's what you want us to think, so we should lynch you! But that's what the scum WANT us to think, so we should lynch somebody else! But that's what YOU want us to think, so we should lynch you! But that's what the SCUM want us to think, so we shouldn't lynch you! But that's what you WANT us to think, so...
Even a bunch of 5 year old kids could see that I am not dumb enough to rip into someone then NK them :/
Scum are trying to get an easy lynch (me) by killing the people I obviously don't like. Come on guys really?
This is like the most basic example of WIFOM. What reason could a town player have to induce WIFOM?
Breadbocks' flip surprised me actually, I do not currently have the time to go through his interactions, but as jim says (never thought I'd say that) look at people breadbocks hadn't attacked, or more likely weakly attacked.Blah, blah, I had no idea my scum partner was scum! Blah, blah, repeating the IC.
Again I apologize for my Inactivity, My so-called 'vacation' was an emergency trip to hospital, I have yet to recover and have little enough periods of lucidity to live, let alone enough to post a well thought out argument. (sorry for the sop story, witch this rightfully is.)Okay, that kind of explains it... But you need to plan out these emergencies in the future so they don't interrupt a Mafia game :P
But really, what happened? Obviously you're not dead, and still alive enough to post.
Post by: Heliman on April 14, 2011, 10:31:26 am
You didn't answer my question EGG, I even bolded it for you.
Lets start with the obvious:It's WIFOM, you know it is, the kill wasn't strategic N1 and followed form N2, I "ripped" on Jim too you know, but I wasn't a bitch about it.
Even a bunch of 5 year old kids could see that I am not dumb enough to rip into someone then NK them :/
Scum are trying to get an easy lynch (me) by killing the people I obviously don't like. Come on guys really?
Breadbocks' flip surprised me actually, I do not currently have the time to go through his interactions, but as jim says (never thought I'd say that) look at people breadbocks hadn't attacked, or more likely weakly attacked.All of Breadbock's attacks were weak, though I seem to remember a very certain attack D1 on a very certain lurker.
Again I apologize for my Inactivity, My so-called 'vacation' was an emergency trip to hospital, I have yet to recover and have little enough periods of lucidity to live, let alone enough to post a well thought out argument. (sorry for the sop story, witch this rightfully is.)Because OF COURSE you only tell people this when your are actually under fire, COULDN'T THINK OF A BETTER TIME IN FACT.
Post by: Heliman on April 14, 2011, 10:35:10 am
Breadbocks' flip surprised me actually, I do not currently have the time to go through his interactions, but as jim says (never thought I'd say that) look at people breadbocks hadn't attacked, or more likely weakly attacked.Blah, blah, I had no idea my scum partner was scum! Blah, blah, repeating the IC.
[/quote]
Also, if you're so sure he's scum, why haven't you voted him yet?
Post by: Heliman on April 14, 2011, 10:36:21 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 14, 2011, 11:35:33 am
Votecount:
Heliman - 0 -
webadict - 0 -
Orangebottle - 0 -
CrownofFire - 0 -
Simmura McCrea - 2 - webadict, Heliman
Not Voting - 0 - CrownofFire, Orangebottle, Simmura McCrea
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 0 -
Shorten - 0 -
In its current state, the day will end with a Simmura McCrea Lynch.
Orangebottle has been prodded.
The King of Eggs is now Simmura McCrea.
The Day ends to Friday, 8PM GMT.
You need 2 to Extend and 3 to Shorten.
Post by: Heliman on April 14, 2011, 11:42:14 am
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 14, 2011, 11:43:28 am
Because TKoE isn't playing anymore :PBreadbocks' flip surprised me actually, I do not currently have the time to go through his interactions, but as jim says (never thought I'd say that) look at people breadbocks hadn't attacked, or more likely weakly attacked.Also, if you're so sure he's scum, why haven't you voted him yet?QuoteBlah, blah, I had no idea my scum partner was scum! Blah, blah, repeating the IC.
And besides that, it's a little rude to vote someone that just got replaced.
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 14, 2011, 11:44:54 am
First off, I'm going to vote Heliman. You've been telling everyone to scumhunt today, without doing much of it yourself. You also keep going on about WIFOM and it's annoying me.
Also, FoS on OrangBottle, but only because you haven't posted much.
Will post more on the others when I've gone over the thread in more detail and made some notes.
Post by: Heliman on April 14, 2011, 12:00:55 pm
Quote from: Simmura McCrea link=topic=80018.msg2185068#msg2185068 date=1302799494
First off, I'm going to [color=red
First off, I'm going to [color=red
vote Heliman.[/color] You've been telling everyone to scumhunt today, without doing much of it yourself. You also keep going on about WIFOM and it's annoying me.Ah! Today is finally getting interesting!
I have to disagree Simmy. The way I see it, I'm the one who has been scumhunting the most today, what with my pursuit of Egg. Why would you you see it otherwise?
Post by: webadict on April 14, 2011, 12:22:12 pm
It's a little more rude to have no opinions on anybody. You can probably get to scumhunting at any time. I'm still waiting on it.Because TKoE isn't playing anymore :PBreadbocks' flip surprised me actually, I do not currently have the time to go through his interactions, but as jim says (never thought I'd say that) look at people breadbocks hadn't attacked, or more likely weakly attacked.Also, if you're so sure he's scum, why haven't you voted him yet?QuoteBlah, blah, I had no idea my scum partner was scum! Blah, blah, repeating the IC.
And besides that, it's a little rude to vote someone that just got replaced.
How about this. For the others that are actually not either dead, absent(crown) or lurking (Egg), post what they think of the everyone that's alive right now. I mean an ordered list, with a description of every player. Come on motherfuckers, it's arts and crafts time down at the BM daycare, speak up!I disagree with this on principle of you asking but not doing it first. It's not a god idea to come up with ideas for others to do.
Anyhow,
Heliman is Town. You can either choose to believe me or not, but I have it in good knowledge that Heliman is Town. In fact, there is no reason to not believe what I say.
I need Orange Bottle and Crown to talk more.
The King is scum for stealing arguments. Or whoever replaced him. I'll get on him in just a bit.
Hokay, first p0st and all that. Anywho.Because everyone SHOULD be scumhunting. I disagree with the statement, since you would also count as not scumhunting under that same premise. The WIFOM was King's argument about why he shouldn't be lynched, which has NOTHING to do with the whole stealing arguments thing. Instead, you've jumped on the OMGUSing train t tell Heliman to look somewhere else, since his scumhunting has been directed toward you.
First off, I'm going to vote Heliman. You've been telling everyone to scumhunt today, without doing much of it yourself. You also keep going on about WIFOM and it's annoying me.
Also, FoS on OrangBottle, but only because you haven't posted much.
Will post more on the others when I've gone over the thread in more detail and made some notes.
I am interested to hear what you have to say though. Come on and bring it forth.
Post by: Heliman on April 14, 2011, 12:30:37 pm
(PFP)But wuba, that was the first thing I did today!How about this. For the others that are actually not either dead, absent(crown) or lurking (Egg), post what they think of the everyone that's alive right now. I mean an ordered list, with a description of every player. Come on motherfuckers, it's arts and crafts time down at the BM daycare, speak up!I disagree with this on principle of you asking but not doing it first. It's not a god idea to come up with ideas for others to do.
Post by: webadict on April 14, 2011, 12:33:36 pm
? Did I miss a post? I don't see one that would be listed.(PFP)But wuba, that was the first thing I did today!How about this. For the others that are actually not either dead, absent(crown) or lurking (Egg), post what they think of the everyone that's alive right now. I mean an ordered list, with a description of every player. Come on motherfuckers, it's arts and crafts time down at the BM daycare, speak up!I disagree with this on principle of you asking but not doing it first. It's not a god idea to come up with ideas for others to do.
Post by: Heliman on April 14, 2011, 12:35:34 pm
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 14, 2011, 12:39:07 pm
Secondly, Heli: I was basing that mostly off the current page. Not great, I know. Ah well.
Third: So far, I don't think webadict's scum. This could be because you're experienced enough to throw off poor Newbie McCrea, but hey. Can I ask why you're so convinced that Heli's town, though? Crown hasn't posted much recently due to RL stuff, so I'm not going to comment until he's posted more, same with OrangeBottle. As for Heli, I'm not sure anymore. Unvote for the moment. This stuff's complicated.
(PFP)The one where I first voted egg?No you didn't, you ragged on Egg and said nothing on anyone else.
Post by: Vector on April 14, 2011, 12:42:24 pm
Okay, first off, could an IC give a detailed explanation of WIFOM? I still don't fully understand it.
WIFOM is, first and foremost, an instance of recursive thinking.
Say you have some action, and you want to know why someone did that. You first think "He did that because he is _____."
Then you think "No, maybe he did that because he wants me to think that he is _________."
And then "Maybe he did that because he wants me to think that he wants me to think that he is _______________________."
And it goes on, and on.
The solution is that, whenever you find yourself in one of these situations, you should ignore the problem of the WIFOM in and of itself, and engage in meta-thinking. In other words, try to figure out if the injection of WIFOM was intentional or unintentional; and if you end up with more WIFOM there, just don't mention the WIFOM and question the person instead.
I hope that makes things clearer.
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 14, 2011, 12:43:58 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 14, 2011, 02:26:14 pm
Note that they did it, but ignore whatever it is they were trying to say.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 14, 2011, 02:43:01 pm
Because OF COURSE you only tell people this when your are actually under fire, COULDN'T THINK OF A BETTER TIME IN FACT.Seriously? Guy's been in a hospital and had just asked for replacement, and you're just going to act like he's lieing? Dick move, heliman.
Anyway, I'm much better at IRC mafia than this. I guess i'm just not used to WALL OF TEXT.
Now, let's begin.
Hokay, first p0st and all that. Anywho.
First off, I'm going to vote Heliman. You've been telling everyone to scumhunt today, without doing much of it yourself. You also keep going on about WIFOM and it's annoying me.
Also, FoS on OrangBottle, but only because you haven't posted much.
Will post more on the others when I've gone over the thread in more detail and made some notes.
Welcome to the game!
How about this. For the others that are actually not either dead, absent(crown) or lurking (Egg), post what they think of the everyone that's alive right now. I mean an ordered list, with a description of every player. Come on motherfuckers, it's arts and crafts time down at the BM daycare, speak up!Heliman - Most likely scum. He is being completely and utterly useless today, what with attacking the guy who requested a replacement. Also, he is a jerk.
Webadict - Might be scum. The other two ICs are dead, and one has to be scum, right? I think that if Webadict doesn't die tonight, he is scum.
TKoE - Sorry to see you go. Bye dude.
CrownOfFire - Being quiet, passive. Eh. I don't see too much reason other than that to think he's scum.
Simmura McCrea - I have no idea, honestly. I'll likely learn more when they post a bit more.
Actually, I have a question for you. Simmura: What do you think about the previous nightkills?
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 14, 2011, 03:13:55 pm
Heliman - Most likely scum. He is being completely and utterly useless today, what with attacking the guy who requested a replacement. Also, he is a jerk.
Being a jerk isn't a scum tell. You shouldn't vote a player who rubs you the wrong way, only a player you think is scum.
There's nothing wrong with attacking a player who's requested a replacement. Asking for a replacement doesn't make a player off-limits.
Webadict - Might be scum. The other two ICs are dead, and one has to be scum, right? I think that if Webadict doesn't die tonight, he is scum.
The roles are distributed randomly; you can't make any assumptions about the alignment of any ICs based on the alignments of the other two.
Post by: Ottofar on April 14, 2011, 03:16:04 pm
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 14, 2011, 03:19:13 pm
Actually, I have a question for you. Simmura: What do you think about the previous nightkills?I get the feeling they were slightly panicky scum trying to take out the more experienced ICs to reduce the chances of detection. Bread got caught too early, but the remaining scum's got a much easier job without them. In all honesty, I expect webadict to be the next to be NK'd. Of course, now that I've said that, the scum might not NK him to try to throw off this line of thought. Not that it'd help much, since we'd still have an IC townie. Unless webadict himself is the scum. So basically, if webadict isn't NK'd, I'm going to suspect him pretty heavily. Probably won't find anything on him, though. No offense to you, webadict. It's just what I'd do if I were scum.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 14, 2011, 03:35:01 pm
Heliman - Most likely scum. He is being completely and utterly useless today, what with attacking the guy who requested a replacement. Also, he is a jerk.
Being a jerk isn't a scum tell. You shouldn't vote a player who rubs you the wrong way, only a player you think is scum.
There's nothing wrong with attacking a player who's requested a replacement. Asking for a replacement doesn't make a player off-limits.
He's still being much more useless than he was before.
The roles are distributed randomly; you can't make any assumptions about the alignment of any ICs based on the alignments of the other two.
Ah, sorry, misread the OP. Un-FoS Webadict for now.
Besides he replaced in.
That doesn't mean he's not scum. It just means we have less posts to hunt through to prove that he's scum.
Post by: Toaster on April 14, 2011, 03:36:46 pm
Let's take your statement here:
So basically, if webadict isn't NK'd, I'm going to suspect him pretty heavily.
Let's assume the five players are Simmura, Webadict, Toaster, A, and B. Let's also assume I'm the one scum. I'd try to steer toward a mislynch toward A or B, and then NK the other one. During the night, I'd work on a case against Web. Come day, I'd post it and vote him, and assume you'd follow along, since you already advertised that opinion. Mislynch on Web, I win.
Don't ever assume scum will take the obvious choice when it comes to NKs. In fact, you shouldn't assume anything about the NKs of previous nights- they are a prime source of useless circular logic that will only waste your time and confuse you. The dead are dead- focus on the living.
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 14, 2011, 03:47:16 pm
Soooooooo. Um. FoS on Crown. He's been pretty lurky recently, although that may be RL stuff. Aside from that, I'm going to have to re-think some stuff.
Post by: Heliman on April 14, 2011, 08:08:34 pm
Okay, first off, could an IC give a detailed explanation of WIFOM? I still don't fully understand it.Woah Woah Woah, What? You used WIFOM as a reason for voting me without knowing what it does? Massive OMGUS'n is afoot here.
Secondly, Heli: I was basing that mostly off the current page. Not great, I know. Ah well.Ok, now I don't follow because on the very same page I was hunting your predecessor, Egg. In fact, you even mentioned how I talked about WIFOM today, when that was the only post I mentioned it in, so you had to have seen it.
Can I ask why you're so convinced that Heli's town, though?Oh, read through the thread, the answer's in there somewhere.
No you didn't, you ragged on Egg and said nothing on anyone else.I beg to differ (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2179741#msg2179741), although I did focus on egg in that post, it was only because I wanted to elaborate why I was voting him.
|
|
|
Orangebottle
Seriously? Guy's been in a hospital and had just asked for replacement, and you're just going to act like he's lieing? Dick move, heliman.I don't see any reason to believe him, especially since he's withheld this information for so long.
Also, he is a jerk.Oh. Well pardon me, madam.
He's still being much more useless than he was before.This is the second time you've made this baseless observation, would you care to explain to us why? If you can, try not to act too much like breadbocks in the process.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 14, 2011, 08:26:14 pm
Post by: Heliman on April 14, 2011, 08:39:29 pm
Post by: webadict on April 14, 2011, 11:41:16 pm
Post by: Heliman on April 14, 2011, 11:55:49 pm
Post by: breadbocks on April 14, 2011, 11:56:48 pm
Post by: Heliman on April 15, 2011, 12:01:27 am
Post by: breadbocks on April 15, 2011, 12:03:47 am
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 15, 2011, 03:23:11 am
SimmuraOkay, first off, could an IC give a detailed explanation of WIFOM? I still don't fully understand it.Woah Woah Woah, What? You used WIFOM as a reason for voting me without knowing what it does? Massive OMGUS'n is afoot here.
No, I used the fact that you kept going on about it despite Jim telling you to quit it. Also, because you're aggressive and assertive and I don't like that sort of person.Secondly, Heli: I was basing that mostly off the current page. Not great, I know. Ah well.Ok, now I don't follow because on the very same page I was hunting your predecessor, Egg. In fact, you even mentioned how I talked about WIFOM today, when that was the only post I mentioned it in, so you had to have seen it.
Yeah, you ragged on Egg. That was it.Can I ask why you're so convinced that Heli's town, though?Oh, read through the thread, the answer's in there somewhere.
Didn't ask you.No you didn't, you ragged on Egg and said nothing on anyone else.I beg to differ (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2179741#msg2179741), although I did focus on egg in that post, it was only because I wanted to elaborate why I was voting him.
I was more meaning here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2184867#msg2184867), but having seen that post I concede the point.
Also, he is a jerk.Oh. Well pardon me, madam.
And yes, you are being a jerk.
Anywho, that aside, I'm going to do something that's probably pretty stupid and trust webadict. Heli's town, yay, have a party or something. Gotta work now, will post on the others later, this one just didn't require as much thought.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 15, 2011, 07:15:11 am
Spoiler: Wall (click to show/hide)
Read the nice WoT I just posted. I'll be awaiting a rebuttal.He's still being much more useless than he was before.This is the second time you've made this baseless observation, would you care to explain to us why? If you can, try not to act too much like breadbocks in the process.
I'm going to have to PM LNCP something. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to reveal some... er... sensitive (sort of?) information. Really, it won't chance my stance. It'll just change what I say.
I suppose the IC thing to do would be to play fairly, but the winner in me wishes to cheat. So, I'll brb.
If this is what clears heliman, just come out and say it Webadict. If you can't, then I'll keep with my vote on him.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 15, 2011, 07:24:31 am
Post by: Orangebottle on April 15, 2011, 07:26:37 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 15, 2011, 11:19:25 am
Down below, the islanders seem to have found two likely targets; Simmura McCrea and Heliman. The party is split on the choice however, and if they do not decide soon they will have lost their chance to find the traitor.
Votecount:
Heliman - 2 - Orangebottle, Simmura McCrea
webadict - 0 -
Orangebottle - 0 -
CrownofFire - 0 -
Simmura McCrea - 2 - webadict, Heliman
Not Voting - 1 - CrownofFire
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 0 -
Shorten - 0 -
In its current state, the day will end with a No Lynch.
The Day ends to Friday, 8PM GMT.
You need 2 to Extend and 3 to Shorten.
Post by: Heliman on April 15, 2011, 11:54:19 am
Also for the love of god, somebody else extend, we need more time to discuss this.
Post by: webadict on April 15, 2011, 02:28:44 pm
I have some time over the weekend.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 15, 2011, 02:41:28 pm
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 15, 2011, 03:14:11 pm
Post by: Orangebottle on April 15, 2011, 03:34:37 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 15, 2011, 03:40:25 pm
The sun begins to waver in the sky as the debate takes on a new-found fervour. Fists are clenched and weapons are found as the time approaches.
Votecount:
Heliman - 2 - Orangebottle, Simmura McCrea
webadict - 0 -
Orangebottle - 0 -
CrownofFire - 0 -
Simmura McCrea - 2 - webadict, Heliman
Not Voting - 1 - CrownofFire
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 3 - webadict, Orangebottle, Simmura McCrea
Shorten - 0 -
In its current state, the day will end with a No Lynch.
The Day had been extended to Monday, 8PM GMT.
You need 2 to Extend and 3 to Shorten.
Post by: Heliman on April 15, 2011, 09:19:35 pm
Ok, lets do this.
Spoiler: Anger arc (click to show/hide)
What's next? Oh yes, the WIFOM arc, Jim must be rolling in his grave.
Spoiler: WIFOM Arc (click to show/hide)
Ok, now that that's done, time for the Day 2 Arc. Wow, this is a hefty one.
Spoiler: Day 2 Arc (click to show/hide)
I guess that leaves the Day 3 Arc then.
Spoiler: Day Three Arc (click to show/hide)
*looks winded from going through that much pointless crap*
Hah... Hah...There.
*Wheeze*
*passes out*
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 15, 2011, 11:29:55 pm
Making giant walls of text with commentary on every single post completely obfuscates your argument because nobody wants to read that crap and when people do they lose sight of the point you were trying to make.
I didn't bother stepping in when Orangebottle made his because I am dead and he had some decent points, so I let him do his thing. But I don't want to let anybody walk away with the lesson that making giant fucking unreadable walls of texts is the way to play mafia, mostly because I don't want to play with people who do that. Now, that may seem self-serving (and it is), but do you really want to spend four hours formatting a single post when you're arguing over stupid stuff anyway? I hope you don't.
So, in the future, just try to be clear and concise, so that everybody can spend less time arguing, but do so about ten times more effectively.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 15, 2011, 11:43:39 pm
Also, LNCP: Simmura currently is not voting as seen in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2185209#msg2185209). Fix it please.
Post by: Heliman on April 16, 2011, 01:01:06 am
Now, that may seem self-serving (and it is), but do you really want to spend four hours formatting a single post when you're arguing over stupid stuff anyway? I hope you don't.No, no, you're right. That Frankenstein took forever to respond to, especially when half of it was done by Orange already!
I do have to say that you're awfully defensive, Heliman.Yeah. You do have me there, I guess I am doing a bit of defense tonight. My vote's already solidified, so...
Anyhow, I'm just getting back on because I basically made a large error with the day 3 arc (I knew I sectioned it into arcs for a reason) that made 1/2 of it impossible to read properly. now you can read it
Spoiler: Day Three Arc, Revised so regular Jackoffs can read it (click to show/hide)
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 16, 2011, 01:05:08 am
And it was directed at everybody because it's a piece of advice everybody can benefit from.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 16, 2011, 01:37:08 am
Spoiler: Anger arc (click to show/hide)
What's next? Oh yes, the WIFOM arc, Jim must be rolling in his grave.Spoiler: WIFOM Arc (click to show/hide)
Ok, now that that's done, time for the Day 2 Arc. Wow, this is a hefty one.Spoiler: Day 2 Arc (click to show/hide)
I guess that leaves the Day 3 Arc then.Spoiler: Day Three Arc (click to show/hide)
*looks winded from going through that much pointless crap*
Pointless, eh? Why'd you even respond to it then?
I do have to say that you're awfully defensive, Heliman. And Jim's post has a point, I just can't see any point beyond defending yourself. But unfortunately, you just haven't really given me any kind of a huge scum vibe this game. I just don't see enough reason to vote you over somebody like Simmura McCrea over there. TKoE wasn't that great, even excluding the so-called "lurking".And Heliman has at least pointed a few fingers, rare as they are. TKoE piggybacked on other arguments, and so far you just seem to be defending yourself, especially since you're not currently voting (*cough* LNCP *cough*).
I'm not Super. Any suspicion from Toaster due to Super is about as meaningful to me as someone out for revenge on me for my ancestor. It means nothing to me, because I didn't do it.
I'm really tired of people ignoring that.
It was more directed at Orangebottle for starting the wall of text than it was at you for responding to it.Er. Sorry. I probably should've refined the wall a lot more. Would've made it much smaller. But now that it's begun, I'm not going to just drop it.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 16, 2011, 02:28:00 am
What's the core of your attack? What are the few central points that your whole attack rests on?
That's what your post should be.
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 16, 2011, 03:01:08 am
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 16, 2011, 03:58:17 am
Day 1, you asked a few questions of people, answered questions of you, all that. Seems to be fairly normal RVS, from what I can tell. You pick at Egg's posts, namely his caps-locked post, but I have a good suspicion Egg was actually town. After that, you answered some questions, responded to some comments, asked Toaster a question. But you didn't scumhunt. In fact, you barely posted, especially next to the whole Heli/bread clusterfuck going on in there. Late Day 1, that's not so bad seeing as you weren't really there much. Day 2, you posted twice. Once to say you'd been sightseeing and would be reading through the posts made while you were gone (nothing ever came of that) and once to vote bread as it became increasingly obvious he was next up. A quick bus to give yourself some credibility, perhaps? Day 3, you've voted me for Egg's scumminess, as far as I can see, and that's it. No scumhunting. Just contentless posts.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 16, 2011, 04:14:26 am
Refine it anyway. I'm not going to take the effort to read it but I'm pretty sure you're wasting both your and Heliman's time. Instead of asking him about eeeveeeryyythiiing, ask him the the questions that will really show him to be scum.
What's the core of your attack? What are the few central points that your whole attack rests on?
That's what your post should be.
Urgh...no...this is just too much work. You're right. I'm just going to drop the wall of text stuff unless Heli pisses me off again. Unvote Heliman
I'm interested in how CrownofFire responds to Simmura's points, though.
I'm going to be gone for most of tomorrow. I have a flight, some spring break to get to. I'll try to be semi-active during the break, but I have some work to make up, and more importantly an ISP to work on, so I dunno.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 16, 2011, 04:28:32 am
Did I tell you to drop your attack?
NO
I DID NOT
I told you to make it clear and concise. Where did you get the idea I wanted you to drop your attack?
FROM THIN AIR PROBABLY
Post by: Toaster on April 16, 2011, 09:03:33 am
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 16, 2011, 03:05:30 pm
Actually, vote CrownofFire. No, not as OMGUS, there's an argument here. Now we see if I can make it understandable.I haven't really been able to post much because of this last minute trip thing that I'm practically still in the middle of. This whole trip practically began in day 1, if I'm remembering correctly. But anyway, this is all excuses. I know I haven't been active enough, and I've tried to, but I tend to play more reactionary, which doesn't really work if there's no action to have a reaction to. This post is the perfect example of exactly what is needed for me to react to. A nice, small, simple, and straight-to-the-point block of text. Nothing like those walls up there. You can't easily respond to a wall (and it looks weird to talk to a wall, hehe). Back to the main point, I like to play reactionary. I still take action, but I have to see what everyone's doing first. Usually means I don't end up pinpointing scum until later on, but it all turns out fine.
Day 1, you asked a few questions of people, answered questions of you, all that. Seems to be fairly normal RVS, from what I can tell. You pick at Egg's posts, namely his caps-locked post, but I have a good suspicion Egg was actually town. After that, you answered some questions, responded to some comments, asked Toaster a question. But you didn't scumhunt. In fact, you barely posted, especially next to the whole Heli/bread clusterfuck going on in there. Late Day 1, that's not so bad seeing as you weren't really there much. Day 2, you posted twice. Once to say you'd been sightseeing and would be reading through the posts made while you were gone (nothing ever came of that) and once to vote bread as it became increasingly obvious he was next up. A quick bus to give yourself some credibility, perhaps? Day 3, you've voted me for Egg's scumminess, as far as I can see, and that's it. No scumhunting. Just contentless posts.
Anyway, the largest reason I voted you is because you've been sitting over there not voting anyone and not chasing anyone. Much larger than the second, really. The second reason is because of TKoE. You might be a different person, but if he was scum, then you're scum, right?
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 16, 2011, 03:14:27 pm
As for Egg, I'm pretty sure at least one IC has said something along the lines of "don't vote for a replacement based on the scumminess of the person they're replacing". And to be honest, I thought Egg was scum before I replaced him.
Post by: webadict on April 16, 2011, 03:28:42 pm
If this is what clears heliman, just come out and say it Webadict. If you can't, then I'll keep with my vote on him.I can't, but you can trust me since there is no reason NOT to trust me. Either I'm town and my opinion is valid, or I'm scum and Heliman has to be Town.
Your case has some good points, but there are plenty of pointless points that were unnecessary. WIFOYIFOM? How do you figure that he's attempting to misinform the Town with something like that? A stretch.
I do have to say that you're awfully defensive, Heliman. And Jim's post has a point, I just can't see any point beyond defending yourself. But unfortunately, you just haven't really given me any kind of a huge scum vibe this game. I just don't see enough reason to vote you over somebody like Simmura McCrea over there. TKoE wasn't that great, even excluding the so-called "lurking". And Heliman has at least pointed a few fingers, rare as they are. TKoE piggybacked on other arguments, and so far you just seem to be defending yourself, especially since you're not currently voting (*cough* LNCP *cough*).If you're going to claim piggybacking, you might want to point some fingers at yourself for stealing the piggybacking argument, especially if you're claiming lurking as well.
Also, LNCP: Simmura currently is not voting as seen in this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2185209#msg2185209). Fix it please.
So you're voting for me for the reason I'm voting for you: Little to no scumhunting. You've been playing this for nearly a month, compared to my 2 days, and we've done fairly similar amounts of scumhunting. The difference between us being that I'm terrible at putting thoughts into words so I tend to avoid posting (a habit I'm trying to break by playing mafia), and you're just trying to hide that you're scum.I agree with a fair majority of this post, but you can't say not to look at the replacement. What we should be doing is basing more of our reasoning on your doings, and less on King's.
As for Egg, I'm pretty sure at least one IC has said something along the lines of "don't vote for a replacement based on the scumminess of the person they're replacing". And to be honest, I thought Egg was scum before I replaced him.
You can't really hinge a majority of your defense on "an IC said it." Scumhunting is really your only chance to defend against King's actions.
I know this is a short post, but I'm falling too far behind.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 16, 2011, 09:16:19 pm
As for Egg, I'm pretty sure at least one IC has said something along the lines of "don't vote for a replacement based on the scumminess of the person they're replacing". And to be honest, I thought Egg was scum before I replaced him.
Who and when?
Unfortunately that's not the case. You still have to carry the baggage that comes with the player you're replacing. Other players can't expect that you'll be able to answer for what the player you're replacing did, however. You can only answer for what you've done.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 17, 2011, 07:45:41 am
ARGH
Did I tell you to drop your attack?
NO
I DID NOT
I told you to make it clear and concise. Where did you get the idea I wanted you to drop your attack?
FROM THIN AIR PROBABLY
I got the idea because the post itself was thin air. I can't see any logic that could lead to Heliman being scum. Honestly, this is why pissing people off is an ineffective way to scumhunt. It just ends up wasting everyone's time.
You should never drop an attack on someone before they reply unless you realize it's based on a misconception, misunderstanding, or you realize it makes no sense. "Too much work" is a horrible excuse. Cut out the weak bits and focus on the strengths. Focus it into a handful of points for response.
It is all weak bits. I cut out the post because fuck my logic sucks.
Your case has some good points, but there are plenty of pointless points that were unnecessary. WIFOYIFOM? How do you figure that he's attempting to misinform the Town with something like that? A stretch.Uh. Wuba. Please, tell me what good points I have. At this point there isn't a single fucking argument I can see in it.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 17, 2011, 08:46:03 am
I have to say this is vaguely amusing watching you chase each other in circles.
This quote feels extremely scummy to me. It's the exact same thought I have when I play scum in IRC mafia. I don't care if it's from day 1, this is just too off. This, along with the active lurkiness, blatant bandwagoning, and hypocritical voting logic are just damning.
Vote CrownofFire
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 17, 2011, 09:09:01 am
Votecount:
Heliman - 0 -
webadict - 0 -
Orangebottle - 0 -
CrownofFire - 2 - Orangebottle, Simmura McCrea
Simmura McCrea - 3 - webadict, Heliman, CrownofFire
Not Voting - 0 -
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 0-
Shorten - 0 -
In its current state, the day will end with a Simmura McCrea Lynch.
The Day ends Monday, 8PM GMT.
You need 2 to Extend and 3 to Shorten.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 17, 2011, 09:57:30 am
Okay, so I'm scummy because I didn't want to get involved in a circle of uselessness? All active lurking was pretty much gone after day 1 (RVS tends to make me active lurk, and my favored scum at that point wasn't there), what with me going on this trip and all (and replaced with forced "lurking"). Bandwagoning is where? If you're referring to Simmura there, then whatever. I don't get any scum vibes from anyone except Simmura. I can't entirely explain it, but TKoE was scummy, and now Simmura's scummy to me.I have to say this is vaguely amusing watching you chase each other in circles.
This quote feels extremely scummy to me. It's the exact same thought I have when I play scum in IRC mafia. I don't care if it's from day 1, this is just too off. This, along with the active lurkiness, blatant bandwagoning, and hypocritical voting logic are just damning.
Vote CrownofFire
Now as far as hypocritical voting logic, that's pretty much unavoidable. Try as much as you like, but at some point you're going to have to do it. Just because it's hypocritical doesn't mean it's wrong. Not to mention that I'm being hypocritical of one thing (little scumhunting), while I'm voting Simmura for multiple things.
By the way, LNCP, Simmura McCrea. You missed my vote, fix it please.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 17, 2011, 10:10:42 am
Post by: Heliman on April 17, 2011, 06:00:14 pm
I got the idea because the post itself was thin air. I can't see any logic that could lead to Heliman being scum. Honestly, this is why pissing people off is an ineffective way to scumhunt. It just ends up wasting everyone's time.[/quote]Your case has some good points, but there are plenty of pointless points that were unnecessary. WIFOYIFOM? How do you figure that he's attempting to misinform the Town with something like that? A stretch.Uh. Wuba. Please, tell me what good points I have. At this point there isn't a single fucking argument I can see in it.
Actually, allow me.
Your first solid point was where you said I was scumhunting Jim to distract from breadbocks. Admittedly, this is a solid argument, because although I tried to clarify as much as I could that this was not the case, the clarification itself could be perceived as a lie if someone really thought I was scumming it the whole game.
The second point you made was that I was contradicting myself in attacking Jim for trying to anger breadbocks, because I myself tried to anger breadbocks. This was an argument that I could poke holes in, but only by stating going into the subtle minutia of differences between the two (IE, Jim wasn't straightforward about it.)
Third point was the hypocrisy in using Egg's assault on Jim D2 as a reason for voting him when I went after Jim that same day too. By reading my post you could be led to believe that was the case because I didn't very clearly state large difference between his argument and mine as I could have.
All in all, you did put up a much better argument than bread, I must say. However, and I'm no IC, so Jim can feel free to slap me for saying this, but it seems that as you went further and further into my past posts, you eventually came to the point where you were so sure that you could make me look like scum that you could make EVERYTHING I said look like a lie, causing your argument to become very weak on a whole. As both scum and town, you must look at your post from both angles and predict any possible retorts your opponent will make to an argument before you make that argument. It's a basic debate strategy.
Despite my little theory I just made, you are still looking pretty scummy from all those contradictions and wild WIFOM accusations. Also, I'm no stranger to an IC making an argument sound deflated, but FOS Orangebottle- If Sim flips town you're at the top of my list tomorrow.
(P.S:Yes I know I sound like a jerk now and I'm sorry for that, but I'm really a sheep when not playing mafia, it's true!)
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 18, 2011, 06:40:37 am
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 18, 2011, 06:42:38 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 18, 2011, 06:47:56 am
Anything but "I don't really think anything I can say right now will save me" can save you. So start defending yourself.
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 18, 2011, 07:00:43 am
I think I've figured where webadict is getting the "Heli is town" thing from, aside from out-of-game PMing. The early-game Heli/breadbocks argument. If Heli was scum why would he have gone after his scumpartner so aggressively? Ergo, Town.
Crown, you described yourself as a reactive player. So why did you never react to any of the aforementioned Heli/breadbocks argument?
I didn't want to get involved in a circle of uselessnessThat's a possible defense, but there was plenty of other posting to react to, which you never did. I may be scummy to you, but that's pretty damn scummy to me.
Heli: Well, you still seem to be voting me since I replaced Egg. So I can't really defend myself for how scummy he looked. I might give it a go after work anyway, though.
Post by: Toaster on April 18, 2011, 07:51:27 am
I don't really think anything I can say right now will save me...
This is really to everyone, but the best way to do this is to convince everyone else someone else is scum. That means build a solid case on your top suspect.
Post by: webadict on April 18, 2011, 08:51:39 am
Oh, all right then.There's really no need to defend my actions. All that does is save me from doing any work, which I feel I haven't done enough of anyhow, but people let me off for.
I think I've figured where webadict is getting the "Heli is town" thing from, aside from out-of-game PMing. The early-game Heli/breadbocks argument. If Heli was scum why would he have gone after his scumpartner so aggressively? Ergo, Town.
Crown, you described yourself as a reactive player. So why did you never react to any of the aforementioned Heli/breadbocks argument?I didn't want to get involved in a circle of uselessnessThat's a possible defense, but there was plenty of other posting to react to, which you never did. I may be scummy to you, but that's pretty damn scummy to me.
Heli: Well, you still seem to be voting me since I replaced Egg. So I can't really defend myself for how scummy he looked. I might give it a go after work anyway, though.
But, I do feel Heliman is town unless he is the greatest liar I've ever met, in which case he is probably the new King of the Mafia. It's one of those things that makes someone Town that a scum cannot copy, let alone a newbie scum.
However, Toaster's got it right. Your only defense right now is a good offense, and if you're Town, you better hope you're right, and if you're scum, you better hope you're convincing. Playing defensively only let's us think you're trying to be self-preserving and make sure you live. That's actually not "bad" per-say, but if you provide less offense than defense, there's not a lot to trust from you.
I'm mostly voting for King's behavior, which I realize you cannot answer for, but there are things you can answer for, such as the majority of your argument being that Crown is lurking. I'm probably posting at the same rate Today as he was Yesterday, but you don't seem to consider me scummy, which either means Crown's lack of scumhunting is somehow superior to my voting for you because of the King's behavior (which I would consider scummy at this point, as it is a lack in scumhunting), or you're ignoring me because I'm an IC.
That being said, OrangeBottle:
Ticking people off isn't scumhunting, and trying to pull arguments from their rage is less so. Angry people make stupid mistakes, but scum don't really make those same mistakes. Scum don't need to get angry, except in the same way Town gets angry.Your case has some good points, but there are plenty of pointless points that were unnecessary. WIFOYIFOM? How do you figure that he's attempting to misinform the Town with something like that? A stretch.Uh. Wuba. Please, tell me what good points I have. At this point there isn't a single fucking argument I can see in it.
And Heliman was defending breadbock. Jim Groovester was making a legitimate attack on breadbocks, which Heliman took as "newbies be new" and chainsaw defended on that principle.
I'm not going to bother with a wall this time. A paragraph should suffice.But, then you switch off Heliman for Crown, following Simmura for less reasoning than you voted Heliman for.I have to say this is vaguely amusing watching you chase each other in circles.
This quote feels extremely scummy to me. It's the exact same thought I have when I play scum in IRC mafia. I don't care if it's from day 1, this is just too off. This, along with the active lurkiness, blatant bandwagoning, and hypocritical voting logic are just damning.
Vote CrownofFire
Post by: Toaster on April 18, 2011, 09:02:27 am
Not only is the best way to save yourself is to convince everyone else that your target is scum, doing so actually makes you look more like town! Town's one and only goal is to find scum. If you show single-minded devotion to that goal, you look like a townie. Scum imitate this goal- town is genuine in its intention. That distinction is also a good way to find scum.
Isn't it nice how it all rolls together?
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 18, 2011, 10:28:18 am
Okay, reading through from when webadict joined the game, I'm going to try to throw together something resembling a case against him. I don't actually think he's scum, but it's all practice.
You spent Day 2 pointing out the flaws in others' cases, mainly KoE and bread, I think. That might just be you being all IC, but you didn't really do much scumhunting either. You only voted twice, once against KoE due to blatant bandwagoning, and against bread, a little before the end of the day. You said something about having a case against KoE, but forgot it over the night. After that, you put a FoS on him, then voted for him when he didn't reply, just before he asked for a replacement. Then went back to pointing out flaws in arguments, without producing any of your own.
Spoiler: Some quotes to support the first 2 sentences (click to show/hide)
PPE: Oh hey, that argument looks familiar.
PPE2: Now with less pronouns, more names and some quotes, for less confusion.
PPE3: No, I don't need an argument against Toaster, he's dead. Pay attention, Simmura.
Post by: webadict on April 18, 2011, 11:04:09 am
Most of my argument being "Crown is lurking" isn't strictly speaking true, it's just that that's most of the argument I'm presenting. The rest of it is that Crown just feels scummy to me. I've no idea what's making me feel like that towards Crown and not webadict, but that's the way it is. It's possible web's scum and hiding it better, while Crown's just kinda scummy, but I can't really find anything against web that feels all that wrong. I'm struggling to throw together something that might hold together, but since reading people and explaining my thoughts are two points I'm not good at, it's not exactly easy. I kinda figured I'd struggle in my first few (dozen?) games.You need to explain the quotes. I took them out because you didn't explain their significance, so they just sat there.
Okay, reading through from when webadict joined the game, I'm going to try to throw together something resembling a case against him. I don't actually think he's scum, but it's all practice.
You spent Day 2 pointing out the flaws in others' cases, mainly KoE and bread, I think. That might just be you being all IC, but you didn't really do much scumhunting either. You only voted twice, once against KoE due to blatant bandwagoning, and against bread, a little before the end of the day. You said something about having a case against KoE, but forgot it over the night. After that, you put a FoS on him, then voted for him when he didn't reply, just before he asked for a replacement. Then went back to pointing out flaws in arguments, without producing any of your own.
Plus, your argument falls pretty flat in that I am an experienced player. I DO know how to hide being scum better, just from simple experience, and therefore, you need to pay closer attention to my actions, and judge me more harshly. I'll even give you a little hint that it's a way to townhunt, but I don't think that needs to be discussed right now.
You've got the overall gist of making arguments, but that doesn't really help you right now since this argument is for someone you don't think is scum. I'd consider making your case more persuasive, since you have a gut feeling something is wrong. Now, which posts make that gut feeling happen? Which words? How does that make your target scum?
Obviously your goal is to make an attack so persuasive that we have to vote with you and not against you. You've really only got one more shot to do it or you're going to get lynched.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 18, 2011, 03:52:59 pm
Day 3 Has Ended!
Simmura McCrea has been Lynched!
He was Town.
Simmura McCrea has been Lynched!
He was Town.
Votecount:
Heliman - 0 -
webadict - 0 -
Orangebottle - 0 -
CrownofFire - 2 - Orangebottle, Simmura McCrea
Simmura McCrea - 3 - webadict, Heliman, CrownofFire
Not Voting - 0 -
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 0-
Shorten - 0 -
The day draws yet again to a close, and the lynch is chosen. You surround him, marching to the beat of a morbid drum as you hammer your makeshift spears into the ground.
The group thinks for itself, they say. Once you are part of one, the collective takes over, and you are lost within it. Now, as you form the mob, there is no emotion but rage, there is no cause but murder, no morals but those of the twisted hivemind; relentless, hedonistic, instictual. The hive serves only itself and its cruel whims. Slowly, you lift your spears, and the drumming ceases.
Simmura McCrea, tonight's chosen prey, backs onto a wall crouching like a cornered deer in the hunt, wide-eyed and shaking. His eyes flit from impassive face to face, and scrambles for something to hold in the merciless, smooth rock.
The mob stands at attention as Heliman, head high and stepping lightly, moves through the crowd and stops just in front of Simmura.
"So, amico mio. Any last words before we send you off?"
"You dogs! You know I'm the wrong person! Just look at CrownofFire! Why do you think he's been silent this whole time, eh? How are you going to explain that?"
"He is someone we can trust. He is a part of this family."
Heliman raises his spear and shoves it firmly into Simmura's foot, who gives a yelp and a gasp, and falls onto Heli's shoulder for support. Leaning in, he whispers his final words into the victim's ear:
"You, however, are not."
He nods at the others as he leaves. Their spears are thrust at once with a thud, and are twisted out. Simmura stumbles onto the ground, now limp and pale, staining the ground red.
Searching the body turns up nothing, however. No badges or headsets like the previous, and an examination of the camp shows the same results. As the unfortunate implication of this dawns upon the few left to see the still, inky-black night, quiet lamentations are held. The chances of survival were lessening with each day, and the visions they were experiencing with increasing intensity were distressing. The Cosca felt close by, and yet so far away. And they longed.
Simmura McCrea has been lynched. He was Town.
Night 3 has begun!
Scum & power roles, send in your night actions.
The Night will end Tuesday, 8PM GMT.
Scum & power roles, send in your night actions.
The Night will end Tuesday, 8PM GMT.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 19, 2011, 04:57:38 pm
Day 4 Has Begun!
Heliman has been Nightkilled!
He was Town.
LYLO has begun! Do or die!
Heliman has been Nightkilled!
He was Town.
LYLO has begun! Do or die!
Votecount:
webadict - 0 -
Orangebottle - 0 -
CrownofFire - 0 -
Not Voting - 0 - webadict, Orangebottle, CrownofFire
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 0 -
Shorten - 0 -
You awaken for the last day, now fully lucid and yourselves. Be under no illusions; this is you, as you were, in your murderous state, and amongst yourselves lies an agent, undercover and cowering in fear.
He has executed another this past night: Heliman. He lies in the forest, a bloodied corpse, shattered and weak. In his stead, you shall find freedom, sweet freedom. You shall escape this godforsaken island, this cruel and yet fully deserved carneval of lives and lies. You witness before you a red sunrise, and in its fiery orange light there will be no mercy, no restraint, no respite.
For this is the last. For if you do not find your captor, all will be over.
And not a single tear will be shed.
Heliman has been nightkilled. He was Town.
Welcome to LYLO!
This is the final day of the game. Extra participation will be expected of you, and don't trust anyone, especially those you have trusted before!
The Day will end Thursday, 11PM GMT.
You need 2 to Extend and 2 to Shorten.
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 19, 2011, 05:00:36 pm
I'd give an excuse for not posting again yesterday, but that's all it'd be: an excuse. I'll try again next time, might even do better then. Gonna keep watching though. All zombie-like. Good luck, all.
Post by: Heliman on April 19, 2011, 05:08:42 pm
*is brained to death*
Bah.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 19, 2011, 05:12:34 pm
Welcome to LYLO!
This is the final day of the game. Extra participation will be expected of you, and don't trust anyone, especially those you have trusted before!
Quoted for emphasis.
If you do not make an effort to go through the game and determine who the final scum is you will lose. Simple as that. You need to play.
Look through the whole game, closely examining all the arguments of the other two players. Then, make a determination about who's scummier. Be prepared to defend yourself, and well. Now, more than ever, you need good arguments and you need to be convincing about them. And don't ever give up. If you're town and going to be lynched, you better fight tooth and nail to reverse that.
I don't feel like this advice is adequate enough.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 19, 2011, 08:04:15 pm
Anyway, CrownofFire, for the reasons I stated yesterday and for being the last vote on the Simmura-wagon.
If I seem quieter today, it's because I have a horrible migraine. I'll still try to post, though.
Post by: webadict on April 19, 2011, 09:47:47 pm
I believe the standard parlance for this post would be "Bah".I'm gonna claim that as my bad, too. I didn't realize the Day was ending until it was too late. I was really waiting for a response, but I thought the day was ending later, so I didn't think about the end of the Day.
I'd give an excuse for not posting again yesterday, but that's all it'd be: an excuse. I'll try again next time, might even do better then. Gonna keep watching though. All zombie-like. Good luck, all.
So, anyhow, I'm gonna claim. I'm a Cop, and N1 Super inspected Jim Groovester (Town), N2 I inspected Crownoffire (Town), and last Night I inspected Orangebottle (Town).
So, I guess it's gonna be the old-fashioned way.
Crown, why should I assume your bandwagon was NOT really an OMGUS lifesaver you pulled at the end to stop your own lynch? You haven't done anything but lurk, and when you manage to post, it's to bandwagon with little reasoning.
Orange, you can't just hang on your old argument from yesterday. All that would do if I were scum would be for me to hop on with massive buddying to secure the lynch. You really need to look at both of us, since you seem to be pushing for a Crown lynch without even looking at me. Plus, your major reason from yesterday was that one line felt scummy. That's not nearly enough, especially if you aren't adding anything more in LYLO.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 19, 2011, 10:29:13 pm
Anyway, I'm going to preemptively toss my vote onto Orangebottle. Lucky for webadict, he gets to decide which one of us to lynch. Unless we both decide that he's scum, but whatever.
But I should get onto the actual case (other than OMGUS :P). First of all, you remember that giant wall of text that Orangebottle posted yesterday? Top of page 27 for those on the default numbering pattern of 15 per page. That wall was all aimed at Heliman. Much of it was because Orangebottle was saying that many of Heliman's posts were useless. That in itself is rather... odd. But then Jim says that walls aren't too useful, and he just completely drops the case. Now, in a BM it may be due to inexperience, but he sounded a little too sure of himself to simply just completely drop it.
And seriously webadict? Too bad that doesn't actually help at all...
I should point out that the vote on Simmura is actually WHY I was voted by other people in the first place. Can't exactly save myself from votes that haven't happened yet, now can I?
Post by: breadbocks on April 19, 2011, 10:57:05 pm
Real ICs, feel free to say I'm being a dumb-ass and that this advise is bull.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 19, 2011, 11:01:55 pm
Post by: Toaster on April 20, 2011, 08:49:20 am
Welcome to LYLO!
This is the final day of the game. Extra participation will be expected of you, and don't trust anyone, especially those you have trusted before!
Quoted for emphasis.
If you do not make an effort to go through the game and determine who the final scum is you will lose. Simple as that. You need to play.
Look through the whole game, closely examining all the arguments of the other two players. Then, make a determination about who's scummier. Be prepared to defend yourself, and well. Now, more than ever, you need good arguments and you need to be convincing about them. And don't ever give up. If you're town and going to be lynched, you better fight tooth and nail to reverse that.
I don't feel like this advice is adequate enough.
Quoted again for extra emphasis. This is the endgame, people- no matter what, the game ends at the end of this day. Put in the extra effort to participate. Go through old posts, judge intentions, look for contradictions, see if you can figure out who is BSing you. Scum, this applies to you too- you need to be convincing in your arguments on your target.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 20, 2011, 11:11:11 am
So, anyhow, I'm gonna claim. I'm a Cop, and N1 Super inspected Jim Groovester (Town), N2 I inspected Crownoffire (Town), and last Night I inspected Orangebottle (Town).What.
Anyway, I'm going to preemptively toss my vote onto Orangebottle. Lucky for webadict, he gets to decide which one of us to lynch. Unless we both decide that he's scum, but whatever.
If he's scum, he is laughing his ass off right now.
But I should get onto the actual case (other than OMGUS :P). First of all, you remember that giant wall of text that Orangebottle posted yesterday? Top of page 27 for those on the default numbering pattern of 15 per page. That wall was all aimed at Heliman. Much of it was because Orangebottle was saying that many of Heliman's posts were useless. That in itself is rather... odd. But then Jim says that walls aren't too useful, and he just completely drops the case. Now, in a BM it may be due to inexperience, but he sounded a little too sure of himself to simply just completely drop it.
It was inexperience and the fact that I have better things to do with my time than stay up all night and dig through a gigantic post in search of an actual point.
And seriously webadict? Too bad that doesn't actually help at all...
All it really proves is that one of us(read: you) is a godfather. Unless Webadict is gambiting scum.
So, anyhow, I'm gonna claim. I'm a Cop, and N1 Super inspected Jim Groovester (Town), N2 I inspected Crownoffire (Town), and last Night I inspected Orangebottle (Town).I was planning on adding more. If anyone were to just 'hop on' my vote, I would see them as scum looking for an easy lynch. I realize that in a normal game, scum would just hammer and secure an easy win.
This is the most useless cop claim ever. Honestly, I don't see why you even posted it.
Orange, you can't just hang on your old argument from yesterday. All that would do if I were scum would be for me to hop on with massive buddying to secure the lynch.
Wifom.
You really need to look at both of us, since you seem to be pushing for a Crown lynch without even looking at me. Plus, your major reason from yesterday was that one line felt scummy. That's not nearly enough, especially if you aren't adding anything more in LYLO.
Post by: webadict on April 20, 2011, 12:08:44 pm
I didn't get my role PM until later in the Night. Super had already sent in the action, so I never got a chance to change it. Not that I wanted to, but meh.So, anyhow, I'm gonna claim. I'm a Cop, and N1 Super inspected Jim Groovester (Town), N2 I inspected Crownoffire (Town), and last Night I inspected Orangebottle (Town).What.
At lylo, you claim unless there is a reason not to, such as the chance to catch scum off-guard or to keep information that is potentially losing. Neither of those apply, so if there is a Doctor, they should claim too. Claiming helps to secure semi-confirmed people. Not claiming would've been stupid.Anyway, I'm going to preemptively toss my vote onto Orangebottle. Lucky for webadict, he gets to decide which one of us to lynch. Unless we both decide that he's scum, but whatever.
If he's scum, he is laughing his ass off right now.
But I should get onto the actual case (other than OMGUS :P). First of all, you remember that giant wall of text that Orangebottle posted yesterday? Top of page 27 for those on the default numbering pattern of 15 per page. That wall was all aimed at Heliman. Much of it was because Orangebottle was saying that many of Heliman's posts were useless. That in itself is rather... odd. But then Jim says that walls aren't too useful, and he just completely drops the case. Now, in a BM it may be due to inexperience, but he sounded a little too sure of himself to simply just completely drop it.
It was inexperience and the fact that I have better things to do with my time than stay up all night and dig through a gigantic post in search of an actual point.
And seriously webadict? Too bad that doesn't actually help at all...
All it really proves is that one of us(read: you) is a godfather. Unless Webadict is gambiting scum.
Good point, but you don't truly understand the gravity of the situation. You're banking on me not being scum, which is why you shouldn't be voting, since if you're scum, it makes you look like you've considered me as Town, if I'm scum, I have an easy chance to lynch Crown, and if Crown's scum, he's going to be pushing only you, instead of me.So, anyhow, I'm gonna claim. I'm a Cop, and N1 Super inspected Jim Groovester (Town), N2 I inspected Crownoffire (Town), and last Night I inspected Orangebottle (Town).I was planning on adding more. If anyone were to just 'hop on' my vote, I would see them as scum looking for an easy lynch. I realize that in a normal game, scum would just hammer and secure an easy win.
This is the most useless cop claim ever. Honestly, I don't see why you even posted it.
Orange, you can't just hang on your old argument from yesterday. All that would do if I were scum would be for me to hop on with massive buddying to secure the lynch.
Wifom.
You really need to look at both of us, since you seem to be pushing for a Crown lynch without even looking at me. Plus, your major reason from yesterday was that one line felt scummy. That's not nearly enough, especially if you aren't adding anything more in LYLO.
Right then, let's get this rolling. We're really in the endgame now, aren't we? Before I get started here though, I have to say it's strange how I'm the only player here that's actually been here since the beginning. Well, sort of here. I hate being in the last three though, annoying as hell to look through EVERYTHING. Even more annoying that you two weren't here at all the first day, which is almost half the entire thread.How is your vote the reason people voted you? Didn't you vote AFTER everyone else? You were barely even there!
Anyway, I'm going to preemptively toss my vote onto Orangebottle. Lucky for webadict, he gets to decide which one of us to lynch. Unless we both decide that he's scum, but whatever.
But I should get onto the actual case (other than OMGUS :P). First of all, you remember that giant wall of text that Orangebottle posted yesterday? Top of page 27 for those on the default numbering pattern of 15 per page. That wall was all aimed at Heliman. Much of it was because Orangebottle was saying that many of Heliman's posts were useless. That in itself is rather... odd. But then Jim says that walls aren't too useful, and he just completely drops the case. Now, in a BM it may be due to inexperience, but he sounded a little too sure of himself to simply just completely drop it.
And seriously webadict? Too bad that doesn't actually help at all...
I should point out that the vote on Simmura is actually WHY I was voted by other people in the first place. Can't exactly save myself from votes that haven't happened yet, now can I?
And yeah. I realize I don't have any extra information. I was really hoping Orange would turn up Mafia, because then this would've been easy. Well, easier.
I'll be back tonight with a vote. I've got stuff to do. But, I'm not nearly as busy as last week.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 20, 2011, 01:00:47 pm
Spoiler: CrownofFire (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Webadict (click to show/hide)
Webadict, the reason I didn't vote for you is that my case against you is much, much weaker than my case against Crown.
I didn't get my role PM until later in the Night. Super had already sent in the action, so I never got a chance to change it. Not that I wanted to, but meh.
I see.
At lylo, you claim unless there is a reason not to, such as the chance to catch scum off-guard or to keep information that is potentially losing. Neither of those apply, so if there is a Doctor, they should claim too. Claiming helps to secure semi-confirmed people. Not claiming would've been stupid.
But this claim confirms nobody, because it's possible that one of us(read: CrownofFire) is a godfather.
Good point, but you don't truly understand the gravity of the situation. You're banking on me not being scum, which is why you shouldn't be voting, since if you're scum,
I'm not.
it makes you look like you've considered me as Town,
Because I have no case on you.
if I'm scum, I have an easy chance to lynch Crown, and if Crown's scum, he's going to be pushing only you, instead of me.
He is.
How is your vote the reason people voted you? Didn't you vote AFTER everyone else? You were barely even there!
Simmura OMGUS'd him(with an actual argument, but still), and I voted for him for bandwagoning.
And yeah. I realize I don't have any extra information. I was really hoping Orange would turn up Mafia, because then this would've been easy. Well, easier.
I'll be back tonight with a vote. I've got stuff to do. But, I'm not nearly as busy as last week.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 20, 2011, 05:48:20 pm
As far as that "defending yourself, attacking nobody" post, I didn't even defend myself, really. At what point did going on vacation make me scum? And I didn't vote TKoE because I wanted to see how the new replacement did. Also, I actually somehow managed to completely miss Heliman's thing to me... Or maybe I just forgot about it with all the other stuff going on, it
webadict: It was only after I voted for Simmura, then Orangebottle and Simmura both decided to vote for me. Basically, everybody voted, then I voted Simmura, then Orange and Simmura voted me.
By the way, I'm not one to rule out the possibility of webadict fake-claiming Cop :P
Post by: Orangebottle on April 20, 2011, 05:59:09 pm
Orangebottle: I'm not even going to be bothered to quote that. First of all, acting like an IC makes me scum? What kind of insane logic is that?
I wasn't even acting like an IC. I was giving a piece of advice, which has nothing to do with the game at all. You're just pulling things out of your ass.
As I said, it makes you look TOO TOWN. Maybe you should read. You're not an IC, you're a normal player. Your job is to scumhunt, not give other players advice.
Second, that "circle of uselessness" and the Supercharazard thing were both well past the RVS. I didn't participate in that because it really wasn't accomplishing much. Focusing on 3 out of 9 players was just ridiculous Granted, one scum was in there, but he wasn't lynched until later. But even so, we should have been looking around a bit more instead of purely at three people. Also, I would have said something, but that surprise vacation thing messed me all up.
As far as that "defending yourself, attacking nobody" post, I didn't even defend myself, really. At what point did going on vacation make me scum?
Sorry. I derp'd.
And I didn't vote TKoE because I wanted to see how the new replacement did.
And then you bandwagoned Simmura just to get them lynched.
Also, I actually somehow managed to completely miss Heliman's thing to me... Or maybe I just forgot about it with all the other stuff going on, it
It's still unacceptable. You always answer a question when asked. He even reminded you that he'd asked you to do something. The post I linked was, in fact, the post where he reminded you to do what he asked.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 20, 2011, 07:05:25 pm
Ask questions about why webadict picked those targets, and look at webadict's answers. You'll first want to check if webadict's reasons are good, and then you want to check whether they're consistent with everything else he's done. If, for example, he said he suspected Orangebottle, and wanted to check his alignment, that's a perfectly fine reason for an inspect. If he said on the day before that he thought Orangebottle was town, then it wouldn't make sense for him to inspect him, so you should ask about that. These are the sorts of things you want to look for to figure out if it's a fake claim. Ask about anything that seems off.
If you can't figure out if he's fake claiming or not, you should probably drop it. Stay wary regardless. It's lylo.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 20, 2011, 07:40:23 pm
Webadict: Why did you pick myself and Crown?
Post by: webadict on April 20, 2011, 11:00:37 pm
Jim:His first target(you) was picked by his predecessor. As for Crown and I, I believe I already understand why. But just to be sure...Well, I had a chance to change Jim, but I didn't. I figured the IC scan was more useful than normal.
Webadict: Why did you pick myself and Crown?
I picked Crown because he was my second choice for scum (After King), and I figured King would get lynched, but if I found the other scum, then woohoo. And last Night there was really only one other person to pick, and really I was hoping that my claiming of Heliman being Town would sort of make Heliman a target. More of my shield than anything else. Plus, I already knew he was Town.
Orangebottle: I'm not even going to be bothered to quote that. First of all, acting like an IC makes me scum? What kind of insane logic is that? I wasn't even acting like an IC. I was giving a piece of advice, which has nothing to do with the game at all. You're just pulling things out of your ass. Second, that "circle of uselessness" and the Supercharazard thing were both well past the RVS. I didn't participate in that because it really wasn't accomplishing much. Focusing on 3 out of 9 players was just ridiculous Granted, one scum was in there, but he wasn't lynched until later. But even so, we should have been looking around a bit more instead of purely at three people. Also, I would have said something, but that surprise vacation thing messed me all up.My bad. I was looking at the vote counts in the wrong order.
As far as that "defending yourself, attacking nobody" post, I didn't even defend myself, really. At what point did going on vacation make me scum? And I didn't vote TKoE because I wanted to see how the new replacement did. Also, I actually somehow managed to completely miss Heliman's thing to me... Or maybe I just forgot about it with all the other stuff going on, it
webadict: It was only after I voted for Simmura, then Orangebottle and Simmura both decided to vote for me. Basically, everybody voted, then I voted Simmura, then Orange and Simmura voted me.
By the way, I'm not one to rule out the possibility of webadict fake-claiming Cop :P
In spite of OrangeBottle's arguments, CrownofFire is the scum. Crown intends on buddying both the remaining players while simultaneously trying to shift Orange's gaze to me. He seems to take my claim at face value, while Orange is suspicious of both players, something that any player should be.
Orange isn't making a great attack, but he's actually trying to make one. The Too Townie argument is stupid, though.
Crown OMGUSes almost immediately, almost ignoring me with a small comment, but also taking the Cop claim as 100% true, meaning he knows I'm not lying, and therefore scum. He makes passive attacks about me and attempts to buddy his attacker in the same line ("Unless we both decide webadict's scum"). He makes no real attempt to scumhunt me, and is trying to not provoke me in any manner, either to make sure I don't become emotionally charged to attack him or in the hopes that Orange has a change of heart.
Crown tries to use Jim's advice as reasoning, and then as a kicker, is spending more effort defending himself than attacking, something he accused Simmura of doing as he voted her yesterday.
Also, Orange, please stop answering in orange. I would so much rather you just quote the whole thing and answer it outside the quote, as reading it on my phone is incredibly difficult (No font coloring).
Post by: Orangebottle on April 20, 2011, 11:17:26 pm
I picked Crown because he was my second choice for scum (After King), and I figured King would get lynched, but if I found the other scum, then woohoo. And last Night there was really only one other person to pick, and really I was hoping that my claiming of Heliman being Town would sort of make Heliman a target. More of my shield than anything else. Plus, I already knew he was Town.Webadict. What are you saying here?
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 21, 2011, 02:10:14 am
Post by: webadict on April 21, 2011, 07:52:26 am
For the NK instead of me. If I kept claiming he was Town, he would either: a) Be confirmed Town when I died, or b) Be killed by the NK. If both Toaster and Jim were killed, I was obviously next. So, I used him as a confirmed Town shield. There was really no losing for me unless you all kept being stupid and didn't listen. Which is why I was hoping more for the b option, which gave me another inspection, specifically the one on the only other remaining uninspected player with the hope that it would turn up Mafia.I picked Crown because he was my second choice for scum (After King), and I figured King would get lynched, but if I found the other scum, then woohoo. And last Night there was really only one other person to pick, and really I was hoping that my claiming of Heliman being Town would sort of make Heliman a target. More of my shield than anything else. Plus, I already knew he was Town.Webadict. What are you saying here?
And I realize I missed this post. It is lacking some pretty obvious answers.
In your first post as an IC, you say that you're suspicious of Crown. What happened to that? You also admit to cheating. Town has no reason to cheat.I inspected him Night 2 and got Town. I figured it was more likely to be true.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2148710#msg2148710
And the cheating refers to outside knowledge of Heliman being town. The OBVIOUS knowledge. Where you seem to get that Town can't cheat is beyond me, especially since scum would be equally unable to cheat. I just happened to have knowledge I shouldn't've.
Then you say that,'If you were scum', you would kill Heliman. This could, of course, be CoF trying to wifom me into voting for you.Hey, if I were scum, I would've killed Heliman, but I probably wouldn't've pushed his being Town so hard. Maybe. I dunno. There's really nothing I can say to defend against WIFOM except more WIFOM.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2154237#msg2154237
And here you...didn't want to be an IC? But you were acting like one when you weren't even playing! This is just off. Why would you join a BM as an IC if you didn't want to be an IC?When I'm not playing, I didn't have a personal stake in the game. It wasn't about me winning or losing: it was just me telling you guys what was what. And I joined because it's really difficult to find replacements. Usually.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2179435#msg2179435
Here you answer a question about the previous post. Except it still doesn't make any sense. The only thing you have to do that's different from the other ICs is scumhunt.I'm not sure what you're asking.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2179928#msg2179928
'There is no reason NOT to trust me.' AUGH WHAT. This is Mafia. You never trust ANYBODY unless they are confirmed town. Not even an IC.You're missing something obvious at that stage: There is one remaining scum. That means either I'm Town and my opinion on Heliman is valid, or I'm scum and Heliman HAS to be Town. There is more to the game than simply scumhunting.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2192790#msg2192790
'There's no need to defend my actions' but you do anyway. What? Simmura didn't even ask you a question in the post you quoted.I don't even remember that, so I'm not sure what I'm defending, plus I have to go.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2199333#msg2199333
Post by: Orangebottle on April 21, 2011, 11:44:23 am
You answered it earlier in your post.Here you answer a question about the previous post. Except it still doesn't make any sense. The only thing you have to do that's different from the other ICs is scumhunt.I'm not sure what you're asking.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2179928#msg2179928
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 21, 2011, 03:26:22 pm
Buddying both of you? I'm simply saying that we're against each other unless you're the scum. In no way do I see any kind of buddying there. That's just plain bullshit.Jim:His first target(you) was picked by his predecessor. As for Crown and I, I believe I already understand why. But just to be sure...Well, I had a chance to change Jim, but I didn't. I figured the IC scan was more useful than normal.
Webadict: Why did you pick myself and Crown?
I picked Crown because he was my second choice for scum (After King), and I figured King would get lynched, but if I found the other scum, then woohoo. And last Night there was really only one other person to pick, and really I was hoping that my claiming of Heliman being Town would sort of make Heliman a target. More of my shield than anything else. Plus, I already knew he was Town.
In spite of OrangeBottle's arguments, CrownofFire is the scum. Crown intends on buddying both the remaining players while simultaneously trying to shift Orange's gaze to me. He seems to take my claim at face value, while Orange is suspicious of both players, something that any player should be.
Orange isn't making a great attack, but he's actually trying to make one. The Too Townie argument is stupid, though.
Crown OMGUSes almost immediately, almost ignoring me with a small comment, but also taking the Cop claim as 100% true, meaning he knows I'm not lying, and therefore scum. He makes passive attacks about me and attempts to buddy his attacker in the same line ("Unless we both decide webadict's scum"). He makes no real attempt to scumhunt me, and is trying to not provoke me in any manner, either to make sure I don't become emotionally charged to attack him or in the hopes that Orange has a change of heart.
Crown tries to use Jim's advice as reasoning, and then as a kicker, is spending more effort defending himself than attacking, something he accused Simmura of doing as he voted her yesterday.
Also, Orange, please stop answering in orange. I would so much rather you just quote the whole thing and answer it outside the quote, as reading it on my phone is incredibly difficult (No font coloring).
I'm not taking the Cop claim as true, I'm ignoring it because it's completely useless whether or not it's true. At that point, you weren't showing huge signs of being scum, so I was going to wait for you to post something else. But then you didn't, and I had to leave, so I wasn't given the chance. At the moment, you weren't showing much of any alignment either way to me. Something I was wary of, but I'd rather go after the scum-vibe instead of the zero-vibe. I honestly suck at 3-person LYLO, really.
Honestly, I'm beginning to suspect you more than Orangebottle. Never gave me a great vibe, but now it just seems that Orangebottle is seeming scum to me more because of inexperience than anything else. Yes, his reasons are bullshit, but at least he acknowledges them being bullshit. I have been focusing too much on him. So you know what webadict? Explain to me why anybody would need a "shield". Town doesn't need a shield, Town needs to find scum. We win together, while scum only wins on their own. It's much more vital to scum to protect themselves than Town. You really have no reason to protect yourself other than your own confidence in your scumhunting. But that doesn't matter if you haven't really helped scumhunt. It appears to me like throughout the game you've been acting more like an IC than a player. That's fine, but you don't need to be alive to be an IC, now do you?
Post by: Orangebottle on April 21, 2011, 03:51:16 pm
Extend this bullshit please. Oh, and Unvote. I doubt my post is going to do much unless that extension gets through. LNCP, if you're reading this, make sure that Orangebottle AND webadict have been online since this post (scum wouldn't want to extend, so make sure BOTH of them have been online). It'd be nice if you at least gave them a chance to extend after reading this.Are...are you trying to clear yourself with WIFOM?
Yes, his reasons are bullshit, but at least he acknowledges them being bullshit. I have been focusing too much on him. So you know what webadict? Explain to me why anybody would need a "shield". Town doesn't need a shield, Town needs to find scum.1) One of my arguments is bullshit. The rest are perfectly valid.
2) He explains his reason for wanting a shield in the post right before yours. Can you read? Here. I'll quote it for you in big letters.
If I kept claiming he was Town, he would either: a) Be confirmed Town when I died, or b) Be killed by the NK. If both Toaster and Jim were killed, I was obviously next. So, I used him as a confirmed Town shield. There was really no losing for me unless you all kept being stupid and didn't listen. Which is why I was hoping more for the b option, which gave me another inspection, specifically the one on the only other remaining uninspected player with the hope that it would turn up Mafia.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 21, 2011, 04:39:40 pm
The sun is but a sliver in the horizon, glowing red and lighting the sea ever so slightly.
Votecount:
webadict - 1 - CrownofFire
Orangebottle - 0 -
CrownofFire - 2 - webadict, Orangebottle
Not Voting - 0 -
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 2 - Orangebottle, CrownofFire
Shorten - 0 -
The Day has been extended to Friday, 11PM GMT.
You need 2 to Extend and 2 to Shorten.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 21, 2011, 05:02:52 pm
Extend. I'm interested in hearing your arguments.Not really, it was basically to make sure I'm not lynched because of timezones. I don't want to die because I actually sleep sometimes. I worded it kind of weird. Basically the scum wouldn't really want to extend when a Town player is about to be lynched.Extend this bullshit please. Oh, and Unvote. I doubt my post is going to do much unless that extension gets through. LNCP, if you're reading this, make sure that Orangebottle AND webadict have been online since this post (scum wouldn't want to extend, so make sure BOTH of them have been online). It'd be nice if you at least gave them a chance to extend after reading this.Are...are you trying to clear yourself with WIFOM?
1) You had several earlier that were bullshit as well, and you admitted to a few of them.Yes, his reasons are bullshit, but at least he acknowledges them being bullshit. I have been focusing too much on him. So you know what webadict? Explain to me why anybody would need a "shield". Town doesn't need a shield, Town needs to find scum.1) One of my arguments is bullshit. The rest are perfectly valid.
2) He explains his reason for wanting a shield in the post right before yours. Can you read? Here. I'll quote it for you in big letters.If I kept claiming he was Town, he would either: a) Be confirmed Town when I died, or b) Be killed by the NK. If both Toaster and Jim were killed, I was obviously next. So, I used him as a confirmed Town shield. There was really no losing for me unless you all kept being stupid and didn't listen. Which is why I was hoping more for the b option, which gave me another inspection, specifically the one on the only other remaining uninspected player with the hope that it would turn up Mafia.
2) First of all, Heliman would be confirmed Town when webadict died because he would be scum and therefore Town would win. Oh, and that's kind of WIFOM-y to say that the scum would continue killing ICs, right? Also, if webadict is scum then he wouldn't get another inspection anyway.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 21, 2011, 06:09:12 pm
Not really, it was basically to make sure I'm not lynched because of timezones. I don't want to die because I actually sleep sometimes. I worded it kind of weird. Basically the scum wouldn't really want to extend when a Town player is about to be lynched.Except we both think that you're scum.
1) You had several earlier that were bullshit as well, and you admitted to a few of them.1) Some of my reasons are always bad reasons. Not every argument is flawlessly thought through.
2) First of all, Heliman would be confirmed Town when webadict died because he would be scum and therefore Town would win. Oh, and that's kind of WIFOM-y to say that the scum would continue killing ICs, right? Also, if webadict is scum then he wouldn't get another inspection anyway.
2)No. As I said in my case against him earlier in this day, Webadict knew that Heliman was town, even though it was somewhat cheat-y. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2148710#msg2148710) And he proved accurate. At this point neither of us have much reason to think that Webadict is scum. The chain of IC kills was forming an obvious pattern. And scum wouldn't have an inspection in the first place(in this setup) because scumcop isn't possible.
I am not convinced.
Post by: webadict on April 21, 2011, 06:43:53 pm
Feel free to leave me any questions before then. I should be off in a couple of hours.
I shall even leave you another Extend, since I'm sure I might miss your response tomorrow, and I think things just started getting good.
Post by: Toaster on April 21, 2011, 08:26:13 pm
Post by: webadict on April 21, 2011, 11:06:48 pm
Extend this bullshit please. Oh, and Unvote. I doubt my post is going to do much unless that extension gets through. LNCP, if you're reading this, make sure that Orangebottle AND webadict have been online since this post (scum wouldn't want to extend, so make sure BOTH of them have been online). It'd be nice if you at least gave them a chance to extend after reading this.Hahaha. You're so funny. If you want to make an argument, feel free to extend forever. It won't make you any less scum. Your argument has changed from let's vote the guy who votes me to let's vote the guy who votes me. Obviously, you don't really understand what it takes for someone to be scum. Of course, seeing as how I've just given you an extension, I am clearly not scum. That MUST mean no one is scum! Woah!
Right, but your smileys and attitude show you as trying to appear friendly. You're lessening the severity of your vote, because you don't really want Orange to be against you. I mean, if you actually thought Orange was scum at any point, you wouldn't IMMEDIATELY drop your vote to vote for the guy that will no longer vote with you. So, you're switching your tactic to get Orange to vote with you. Hope that buddy buddy works for ya.Buddying both of you? I'm simply saying that we're against each other unless you're the scum. In no way do I see any kind of buddying there. That's just plain bullshit.Jim:His first target(you) was picked by his predecessor. As for Crown and I, I believe I already understand why. But just to be sure...Well, I had a chance to change Jim, but I didn't. I figured the IC scan was more useful than normal.
Webadict: Why did you pick myself and Crown?
I picked Crown because he was my second choice for scum (After King), and I figured King would get lynched, but if I found the other scum, then woohoo. And last Night there was really only one other person to pick, and really I was hoping that my claiming of Heliman being Town would sort of make Heliman a target. More of my shield than anything else. Plus, I already knew he was Town.
In spite of OrangeBottle's arguments, CrownofFire is the scum. Crown intends on buddying both the remaining players while simultaneously trying to shift Orange's gaze to me. He seems to take my claim at face value, while Orange is suspicious of both players, something that any player should be.
Orange isn't making a great attack, but he's actually trying to make one. The Too Townie argument is stupid, though.
Crown OMGUSes almost immediately, almost ignoring me with a small comment, but also taking the Cop claim as 100% true, meaning he knows I'm not lying, and therefore scum. He makes passive attacks about me and attempts to buddy his attacker in the same line ("Unless we both decide webadict's scum"). He makes no real attempt to scumhunt me, and is trying to not provoke me in any manner, either to make sure I don't become emotionally charged to attack him or in the hopes that Orange has a change of heart.
Crown tries to use Jim's advice as reasoning, and then as a kicker, is spending more effort defending himself than attacking, something he accused Simmura of doing as he voted her yesterday.
Also, Orange, please stop answering in orange. I would so much rather you just quote the whole thing and answer it outside the quote, as reading it on my phone is incredibly difficult (No font coloring).
I'm not taking the Cop claim as true, I'm ignoring it because it's completely useless whether or not it's true. At that point, you weren't showing huge signs of being scum, so I was going to wait for you to post something else. But then you didn't, and I had to leave, so I wasn't given the chance. At the moment, you weren't showing much of any alignment either way to me. Something I was wary of, but I'd rather go after the scum-vibe instead of the zero-vibe. I honestly suck at 3-person LYLO, really.No. You say, "Cop claim with only Town? Ah shucks!" You're trying to play both sides of the field, and now you're trying to backtrack. I'd also like to point that you have no vibe against me until I vote for you, and then it's a whole 'nother story.
Honestly, I'm beginning to suspect you more than Orangebottle. Never gave me a great vibe, but now it just seems that Orangebottle is seeming scum to me more because of inexperience than anything else. Yes, his reasons are bullshit, but at least he acknowledges them being bullshit. I have been focusing too much on him. So you know what webadict? Explain to me why anybody would need a "shield". Town doesn't need a shield, Town needs to find scum. We win together, while scum only wins on their own. It's much more vital to scum to protect themselves than Town. You really have no reason to protect yourself other than your own confidence in your scumhunting. But that doesn't matter if you haven't really helped scumhunt. It appears to me like throughout the game you've been acting more like an IC than a player. That's fine, but you don't need to be alive to be an IC, now do you?Really? I never would've thought that, what with you voting me. I actually still don't believe you, but that's because your blatant OMGUS and lack of any reasoning is probably best beaten by "Hey look! He said the word shield!"
I am finding scum, and I was trying to abuse the system. You know who doesn't need a shield? Scum. Because they're the ones killing. So, really, what you want to prove is that I WASN'T using Heliman as a shield. I had one person other than Heliman to scan, and I was pretty sure that it would turn up Mafia. I can use my role and my knowledge in such a way, since there wasn't any loss, no matter who died. Unless it was Orange.
That's about the worst try I've yet to see. I realize it's WIFOM, but it was perfectly logical, since there is a DEFINABLE PATTERN. I realize that at any point, you could've killed me or Orange, but if I were scum, I would've never had an inspection in the first place!Extend. I'm interested in hearing your arguments.Not really, it was basically to make sure I'm not lynched because of timezones. I don't want to die because I actually sleep sometimes. I worded it kind of weird. Basically the scum wouldn't really want to extend when a Town player is about to be lynched.Extend this bullshit please. Oh, and Unvote. I doubt my post is going to do much unless that extension gets through. LNCP, if you're reading this, make sure that Orangebottle AND webadict have been online since this post (scum wouldn't want to extend, so make sure BOTH of them have been online). It'd be nice if you at least gave them a chance to extend after reading this.Are...are you trying to clear yourself with WIFOM?1) You had several earlier that were bullshit as well, and you admitted to a few of them.Yes, his reasons are bullshit, but at least he acknowledges them being bullshit. I have been focusing too much on him. So you know what webadict? Explain to me why anybody would need a "shield". Town doesn't need a shield, Town needs to find scum.1) One of my arguments is bullshit. The rest are perfectly valid.
2) He explains his reason for wanting a shield in the post right before yours. Can you read? Here. I'll quote it for you in big letters.If I kept claiming he was Town, he would either: a) Be confirmed Town when I died, or b) Be killed by the NK. If both Toaster and Jim were killed, I was obviously next. So, I used him as a confirmed Town shield. There was really no losing for me unless you all kept being stupid and didn't listen. Which is why I was hoping more for the b option, which gave me another inspection, specifically the one on the only other remaining uninspected player with the hope that it would turn up Mafia.
2) First of all, Heliman would be confirmed Town when webadict died because he would be scum and therefore Town would win. Oh, and that's kind of WIFOM-y to say that the scum would continue killing ICs, right? Also, if webadict is scum then he wouldn't get another inspection anyway.
If I want to use WIFOM as a reason to spout how I felt Heliman was town, then I can do that, because I'm making sure that someone is alive tomorrow that would be beneficial to the Town. But, people were just about to let Heliman get lynched, so I was hoping you would kill him.
Anything else?
Oh, and sorry for being a bit late. Longer day than I expected.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 22, 2011, 01:10:19 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 22, 2011, 03:02:33 pm
The fire crackles wildly as the CrownofFire begins to be drawn in. They were playing rough now, all-in; this was the last day to do so, and why shouldn't they? They were lucid now.
The sun is but a sliver in the horizon, glowing red and lighting the sea ever so slightly.
Votecount:
webadict - 1 - CrownofFire
Orangebottle - 0 -
CrownofFire - 2 - webadict, Orangebottle
Not Voting - 0 -
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 2 - Orangebottle, CrownofFire
Shorten - 0 -
The Day has been extended to Friday, 11PM GMT.
You need 2 to Extend and 2 to Shorten.
Ends in two hours folks, so use your time wisely.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 22, 2011, 03:02:57 pm
Ah, no, I was just saying I want to give both of you the chance to extend. Like I said earlier, don't want to die due to timezones and such. I was trying to explain my reasoning behind it, but that obviously failed.Extend this bullshit please. Oh, and Unvote. I doubt my post is going to do much unless that extension gets through. LNCP, if you're reading this, make sure that Orangebottle AND webadict have been online since this post (scum wouldn't want to extend, so make sure BOTH of them have been online). It'd be nice if you at least gave them a chance to extend after reading this.Hahaha. You're so funny. If you want to make an argument, feel free to extend forever. It won't make you any less scum. Your argument has changed from let's vote the guy who votes me to let's vote the guy who votes me. Obviously, you don't really understand what it takes for someone to be scum. Of course, seeing as how I've just given you an extension, I am clearly not scum. That MUST mean no one is scum! Woah!
Nah, I'm not trying to be friendly, I just like to keep the overall feeling of the game friendly. If that makes any sense... At the time, I thought Orangebottle was more scummy than you, but not enough to not have second thoughts and whatever else. The vote was more of a pressure thing than "you are scum and nothing can change my mind" thing.Right, but your smileys and attitude show you as trying to appear friendly. You're lessening the severity of your vote, because you don't really want Orange to be against you. I mean, if you actually thought Orange was scum at any point, you wouldn't IMMEDIATELY drop your vote to vote for the guy that will no longer vote with you. So, you're switching your tactic to get Orange to vote with you. Hope that buddy buddy works for ya.Buddying both of you? I'm simply saying that we're against each other unless you're the scum. In no way do I see any kind of buddying there. That's just plain bullshit.Jim:His first target(you) was picked by his predecessor. As for Crown and I, I believe I already understand why. But just to be sure...Well, I had a chance to change Jim, but I didn't. I figured the IC scan was more useful than normal.
Webadict: Why did you pick myself and Crown?
I picked Crown because he was my second choice for scum (After King), and I figured King would get lynched, but if I found the other scum, then woohoo. And last Night there was really only one other person to pick, and really I was hoping that my claiming of Heliman being Town would sort of make Heliman a target. More of my shield than anything else. Plus, I already knew he was Town.
In spite of OrangeBottle's arguments, CrownofFire is the scum. Crown intends on buddying both the remaining players while simultaneously trying to shift Orange's gaze to me. He seems to take my claim at face value, while Orange is suspicious of both players, something that any player should be.
Orange isn't making a great attack, but he's actually trying to make one. The Too Townie argument is stupid, though.
Crown OMGUSes almost immediately, almost ignoring me with a small comment, but also taking the Cop claim as 100% true, meaning he knows I'm not lying, and therefore scum. He makes passive attacks about me and attempts to buddy his attacker in the same line ("Unless we both decide webadict's scum"). He makes no real attempt to scumhunt me, and is trying to not provoke me in any manner, either to make sure I don't become emotionally charged to attack him or in the hopes that Orange has a change of heart.
Crown tries to use Jim's advice as reasoning, and then as a kicker, is spending more effort defending himself than attacking, something he accused Simmura of doing as he voted her yesterday.
Also, Orange, please stop answering in orange. I would so much rather you just quote the whole thing and answer it outside the quote, as reading it on my phone is incredibly difficult (No font coloring).
Once again, I kind of suck at putting my thoughts into words at times. I didn't really think it through at the time I posted. I should probably have inserted that fake-claim speculation in there, but I forgot to do that. At the time, I was focusing on Orangebootle, so it kind of slipped my mind.I'm not taking the Cop claim as true, I'm ignoring it because it's completely useless whether or not it's true. At that point, you weren't showing huge signs of being scum, so I was going to wait for you to post something else. But then you didn't, and I had to leave, so I wasn't given the chance. At the moment, you weren't showing much of any alignment either way to me. Something I was wary of, but I'd rather go after the scum-vibe instead of the zero-vibe. I honestly suck at 3-person LYLO, really.No. You say, "Cop claim with only Town? Ah shucks!" You're trying to play both sides of the field, and now you're trying to backtrack. I'd also like to point that you have no vibe against me until I vote for you, and then it's a whole 'nother story.
Scum needs shields because there's only 2 of them versus 7 Town. You don't need a shield if you're in the majority. As Town, it doesn't matter whether you specifically are alive or dead. Scum need shields because they're the minority.Honestly, I'm beginning to suspect you more than Orangebottle. Never gave me a great vibe, but now it just seems that Orangebottle is seeming scum to me more because of inexperience than anything else. Yes, his reasons are bullshit, but at least he acknowledges them being bullshit. I have been focusing too much on him. So you know what webadict? Explain to me why anybody would need a "shield". Town doesn't need a shield, Town needs to find scum. We win together, while scum only wins on their own. It's much more vital to scum to protect themselves than Town. You really have no reason to protect yourself other than your own confidence in your scumhunting. But that doesn't matter if you haven't really helped scumhunt. It appears to me like throughout the game you've been acting more like an IC than a player. That's fine, but you don't need to be alive to be an IC, now do you?Really? I never would've thought that, what with you voting me. I actually still don't believe you, but that's because your blatant OMGUS and lack of any reasoning is probably best beaten by "Hey look! He said the word shield!"
I am finding scum, and I was trying to abuse the system. You know who doesn't need a shield? Scum. Because they're the ones killing. So, really, what you want to prove is that I WASN'T using Heliman as a shield. I had one person other than Heliman to scan, and I was pretty sure that it would turn up Mafia. I can use my role and my knowledge in such a way, since there wasn't any loss, no matter who died. Unless it was Orange.
It may be a definable pattern, but if you're the scum, then you're not "following" a pattern, you're making it. And I do realize that you never had an inspection in the first place, that was what I was getting at.That's about the worst try I've yet to see. I realize it's WIFOM, but it was perfectly logical, since there is a DEFINABLE PATTERN. I realize that at any point, you could've killed me or Orange, but if I were scum, I would've never had an inspection in the first place!Extend. I'm interested in hearing your arguments.Not really, it was basically to make sure I'm not lynched because of timezones. I don't want to die because I actually sleep sometimes. I worded it kind of weird. Basically the scum wouldn't really want to extend when a Town player is about to be lynched.Extend this bullshit please. Oh, and Unvote. I doubt my post is going to do much unless that extension gets through. LNCP, if you're reading this, make sure that Orangebottle AND webadict have been online since this post (scum wouldn't want to extend, so make sure BOTH of them have been online). It'd be nice if you at least gave them a chance to extend after reading this.Are...are you trying to clear yourself with WIFOM?1) You had several earlier that were bullshit as well, and you admitted to a few of them.Yes, his reasons are bullshit, but at least he acknowledges them being bullshit. I have been focusing too much on him. So you know what webadict? Explain to me why anybody would need a "shield". Town doesn't need a shield, Town needs to find scum.1) One of my arguments is bullshit. The rest are perfectly valid.
2) He explains his reason for wanting a shield in the post right before yours. Can you read? Here. I'll quote it for you in big letters.If I kept claiming he was Town, he would either: a) Be confirmed Town when I died, or b) Be killed by the NK. If both Toaster and Jim were killed, I was obviously next. So, I used him as a confirmed Town shield. There was really no losing for me unless you all kept being stupid and didn't listen. Which is why I was hoping more for the b option, which gave me another inspection, specifically the one on the only other remaining uninspected player with the hope that it would turn up Mafia.
2) First of all, Heliman would be confirmed Town when webadict died because he would be scum and therefore Town would win. Oh, and that's kind of WIFOM-y to say that the scum would continue killing ICs, right? Also, if webadict is scum then he wouldn't get another inspection anyway.
If I want to use WIFOM as a reason to spout how I felt Heliman was town, then I can do that, because I'm making sure that someone is alive tomorrow that would be beneficial to the Town. But, people were just about to let Heliman get lynched, so I was hoping you would kill him.
Also, it doesn't matter which specific Town player is alive. If Heliman dies, no big loss. If you die, you're an IC and can still give advice.
Really, Crown? Is that it? I see you on the logged in list there. Are you just going to give up at LYLO?Thanks for making assumptions about me. That really helps, doesn't it?
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 22, 2011, 04:36:10 pm
Oh well, Extend it is.
Post by: breadbocks on April 22, 2011, 04:47:02 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on April 22, 2011, 04:49:31 pm
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 22, 2011, 04:50:14 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 22, 2011, 05:00:12 pm
The camp's red light begins to flicker as it sputters, almost dead. The animals begin to come out, and debate, on its last legs, begins broaching the subject of death.
Votecount:
webadict - 1 - CrownofFire
Orangebottle - 0 -
CrownofFire - 2 - webadict, Orangebottle
Not Voting - 0 -
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 2 - CrownofFire, webadict
Shorten - 0 -
The Day has been extended to Sunday, 8PM GMT.
You need 2 to Shorten.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 22, 2011, 06:07:58 pm
Scum needs shields because there's only 2 of them versus 7 Town. You don't need a shield if you're in the majority. As Town, it doesn't matter whether you specifically are alive or dead. Scum need shields because they're the minority.
Cops are a huge advantage to the Town. Couple that with being an extremely experienced player and an IC NK pattern, and of course he needs a shield.
It may be a definable pattern, but if you're the scum, then you're not "following" a pattern, you're making it. And I do realize that you never had an inspection in the first place, that was what I was getting at.
Also, it doesn't matter which specific Town player is alive. If Heliman dies, no big loss. If you die, you're an IC and can still give advice.
Heliman was one of our better players. Were he here instead of me, this day would probably be over already.
Urgh. This day is too long. You've had enough time to try and make a strong case against either myself or Web, and have only managed to flail about uselessly and convince neither of us.
Post by: webadict on April 22, 2011, 06:49:22 pm
You should probably stop defending me. I am quite capable of defending myself. Especially at lylo.Scum needs shields because there's only 2 of them versus 7 Town. You don't need a shield if you're in the majority. As Town, it doesn't matter whether you specifically are alive or dead. Scum need shields because they're the minority.
Cops are a huge advantage to the Town. Couple that with being an extremely experienced player and an IC NK pattern, and of course he needs a shield.It may be a definable pattern, but if you're the scum, then you're not "following" a pattern, you're making it. And I do realize that you never had an inspection in the first place, that was what I was getting at.
Also, it doesn't matter which specific Town player is alive. If Heliman dies, no big loss. If you die, you're an IC and can still give advice.
Heliman was one of our better players. Were he here instead of me, this day would probably be over already.
Urgh. This day is too long. You've had enough time to try and make a strong case against either myself or Web, and have only managed to flail about uselessly and convince neither of us.
And I will, but right now I've got car issues, with a dead battery and what-not, so I'm going to be back in a bit. No need to stress over all these things.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 22, 2011, 11:29:46 pm
You should probably stop defending me. I am quite capable of defending myself. Especially at lylo.
Sorry, I got a little carried away. Blame LNCP.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 23, 2011, 11:40:14 am
A shield still seems suspicious. The reasons for a scum needing a shield is larger than the reasons for a Cop needing a shield. And because webadict did the whole Heliman thing, then people would probably assume he was dropping hints. Why don't you stop trying to get all friendly with webadict? You haven't really said why you're voting me other than "reasons from yesterday" and that I haven't convinced you yet of webadict. But that doesn't work when you outright refuse to look at him, and even DEFEND him.Scum needs shields because there's only 2 of them versus 7 Town. You don't need a shield if you're in the majority. As Town, it doesn't matter whether you specifically are alive or dead. Scum need shields because they're the minority.
Cops are a huge advantage to the Town. Couple that with being an extremely experienced player and an IC NK pattern, and of course he needs a shield.It may be a definable pattern, but if you're the scum, then you're not "following" a pattern, you're making it. And I do realize that you never had an inspection in the first place, that was what I was getting at.
Also, it doesn't matter which specific Town player is alive. If Heliman dies, no big loss. If you die, you're an IC and can still give advice.
Heliman was one of our better players. Were he here instead of me, this day would probably be over already.
Urgh. This day is too long. You've had enough time to try and make a strong case against either myself or Web, and have only managed to flail about uselessly and convince neither of us.
If Heliman was here, then webadict probably wouldn't be. Trading a person that's probably the best person in here for someone else that's definitely not is not that great. If Heliman was here in place of you, then I don't know. There's no telling what would happen, really.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 23, 2011, 12:55:18 pm
A shield still seems suspicious. The reasons for a scum needing a shield is larger than the reasons for a Cop needing a shield. And because webadict did the whole Heliman thing, then people would probably assume he was dropping hints. Why don't you stop trying to get all friendly with webadict? You haven't really said why you're voting me other than "reasons from yesterday" and that I haven't convinced you yet of webadict. But that doesn't work when you outright refuse to look at him, and even DEFEND him.Okay. I'm going to call you out on your bullshit right here. I did a long post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2206182#msg2206182) summarizing my cases against each of you, and I have clearly stated in that post that I have a more solid case against you, as well as my suspicions of you being scum on the previous day.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 23, 2011, 03:43:09 pm
Right, you mean the post where half the points are complete bullshit, and the other half aren't really good either.A shield still seems suspicious. The reasons for a scum needing a shield is larger than the reasons for a Cop needing a shield. And because webadict did the whole Heliman thing, then people would probably assume he was dropping hints. Why don't you stop trying to get all friendly with webadict? You haven't really said why you're voting me other than "reasons from yesterday" and that I haven't convinced you yet of webadict. But that doesn't work when you outright refuse to look at him, and even DEFEND him.Okay. I'm going to call you out on your bullshit right here. I did a long post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2206182#msg2206182) summarizing my cases against each of you, and I have clearly stated in that post that I have a more solid case against you, as well as my suspicions of you being scum on the previous day.
Post by: webadict on April 24, 2011, 12:20:54 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 24, 2011, 02:27:23 pm
Day 4 Has Ended!
CrownofFire has been Lynched!
He was Town.
The Mafia has Won!
CrownofFire has been Lynched!
He was Town.
The Mafia has Won!
Votecount:
webadict - 1 - CrownofFire
Orangebottle - 0 -
CrownofFire - 2 - webadict, Orangebottle
Not Voting - 0 -
No Lynch - 0 -
Extend - 1 - webadict
Shorten - 0 -
With 1 for extend out of 2, the day will end as normal and CrownofFire will be lynched.
The night, begun. The fire, dead. A lynch, chosen.
The CrownofFire backed away into the sand and the pitch-black sea beyond, fielded by the two people that, a day ago, had been his companions throughout the ordeal. Today, they had been his enemies. Now, they were to be his executioners.
The Cosca had never been particularly nice to any of them. They were broken shells, little but weapons, and when they got trapped on this island and the spark was set off, they exploded like gasoline. They were amnesiacs, but it didn't matter. They would always have been murderers, hitmen for the mafia. Nothing could change that, not even hypnosis, not a decade or even a lifetime of gardening or meditation or a normal life.
The Crown, thinking this over, decided that did want a better life now, away from his past and his ghosts. But that wasn't possible, this far from civilisation, on a dead island with two other psychotics turning against him. And he'd get found out, anyhow. The family would discover him somehow, try to drag him back or put a bullet in his head, or the police would try to do so first. Or he'd bring himself in, somehow. Maybe he'd get talked down to and he'd reply with a punch, or a fistfight would turn into a knifing. Maybe he'd just plain go out and kill someone because of the urge.
He tried to settle things here, and he'd have tried his best to live over there. But he was still a murderer and he murdered the other six, and he'd murder again.
Sometimes your best wasn't good enough.
And these other two. Once he was gone, they'd turn on each other. Maybe they'd both die in the fight or one would emerge victorious - for what? They were stuck on this island anyway with no way out, and Breadbocks might not have been an agent after all. For all they knew he was carrying junk and toys, and they were just gullible. Then the survivor would starve to death or go insane.
A fitting end, then.
"Okay, fine. Kill me, the both of you; just do so quickly."
The pair nodded, and turned toward each other.
"Shall I, or will you?" said Webadict.
"Let me."
Orangebottle stepped forward, brandishing his pointed stick. He held the Crown by the shoulder and thrust it into his stomach, then turned it and lifted it into his chest. As it punctured his heart, his skin turned pale and his pupils dilated. Leaning in close, Orangebottle whispered something about his mother into his ear, and his face turned into a grimace, a half-frown whilst looking into the sky, and fell over. The stick was removed and blood pulsed into the beach, turning the sand brown. The CrownofFire lay in the wet mud and saw the basket, toppled on the floor, and the child, staring and frowning.
"Well, Webby, he's dead. Now let's search the body and find that radio."
"No need."
Webadict bent down and grabbed the stick.
"Eh, what do ya mean we don't need to search the body, Web?"
"Because I say so, scum."
Webadict turned around, stick in full swing, shoving it straight into Orangebottle's eye and through the eye socket. As the foreign mass wreaked havoc in his brain his mind's eye drifted into the past.
The criminology class, at the party. He looked and walked around, surrounded by his classmates, patting him in the back and congratulating him on a job well done. But Webadict, he wasn't there. No, of course he wasn't.
And, as the world brightened around him and his grip started to fade, he saw his parents beside him, smiling. He reached out toward them, longing for their touch once more, to feel love again. But they drifted away as he did so, and calling out, he tried to rise up but could not muster the will. They drifted out of sight, and he died.
Webadict looked on with a mixture of pity and disdain as the dying man lay next to his friend, arm lifted and whimpering for his parents. He walked away and sat down on the cold stone next to the empty camp, and took out the radio.
"Webadict to HQ. Webadict to HQ. Requesting premature pickup."
"HQ to Webadict. Amnesiacs secured?"
"Mission is a failure. Requesting pickup."
"Roger that. Pickup by heli, ETA 5 hours."
"Roger."
* * *
EPILOGUE
* * *
EPILOGUE
* * *
The amnesiacs had no family, so all that was left was Breadbocks.
Webadict, washed and provided with a change of clothes, rang on the bell. It was nice up here, though slightly chilly, and he liked the neat rows of houses. It was all shades of grey to him now; he found nothing interesting anymore.
But it was quiet, uneventful, and there were few people around. Maybe he’ll just get transferred here, and while away the days like them just drinking cola and taking down dumb spammers. After that, he might just retire, begin forgetting, and live blissfully remembering little of the past and expecting little of the future.
The door was opened and was greeted by a young lady, bright and curious. "Men hej, är du inte Anders vän? Kom in!"
He walked in, was shown the sofa and sat. Some biscuits and juice was brought out.
"Kommer min Anders - Brödabocken, var det - tillbaka snart? Han sa att han skulle komma hit inom veckan."
The envelope was placed on the table, and she began opening, and reading it, eyes widening for every line she covered.
"I'm sorry, but your husband isn't coming back. He… He was a hero, and will be remembered by us all. He died bravely."
She sobbed on his shoulder, and looking out of the window, he almost saw them.
CrownofFire has been lynched. He was Town.
Orangebottle has been killed. He was Town.
webadict has survived. He was a Secret Agent (Mafia).
Postgame has begun!
Now is the time to discuss your performances, that of the ICs and Mod, the setup and flavour! This is an important bit of the game, so be sure to stick around!
Now is the time to discuss your performances, that of the ICs and Mod, the setup and flavour! This is an important bit of the game, so be sure to stick around!
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 24, 2011, 02:28:10 pm
Deadchat: http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/ssnaT6wGMvp
Role PMs:
Spoiler: Mafia (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Town (click to show/hide)
Night 1:
Spoiler: (Mafia) webadict (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Mafia) breadbocks (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Nightkill) Toaster (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Town) Everyone Else (click to show/hide)
Night 2:
Spoiler: (Mafia) webadict (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Nightkill) Jim Groovester (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Town) Everyone Else (click to show/hide)
Night 3:
Spoiler: (Mafia) webadict (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Town) Orangebottle (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Town) CrownofFire (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Town) Heliman (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on April 24, 2011, 02:36:59 pm
Post by: Darvi on April 24, 2011, 02:50:32 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 24, 2011, 02:53:43 pm
I didn't include the vote counts because I didn't like them anyways. Any feedback regarding the flavour and my perofrmance in general would also be appreciated.
Spoiler: (Day 1) Start (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Day 1) Finish (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Day 2) Start (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Day 2) Finish (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Day 3) Start (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Day 3) Finish (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Day 4) Start (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: (Day 4) Finish (click to show/hide)
Post by: Jack A T on April 24, 2011, 03:04:50 pm
Post by: Darvi on April 24, 2011, 03:08:07 pm
Post by: breadbocks on April 24, 2011, 03:15:31 pm
Post by: Darvi on April 24, 2011, 03:18:17 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 24, 2011, 03:28:36 pm
I get that. It's the details in the ending that confuse me.
CrownofFire died, and went to his personal hell. Orangebottle did too, but in a more pathetic fashion.
Then webadict visited breadbocks' family and told them he was dead.
There.
Post by: breadbocks on April 24, 2011, 04:20:09 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 24, 2011, 04:20:32 pm
Overall I was pretty pleased with the performance of everybody in this game.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 24, 2011, 04:24:03 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 24, 2011, 05:10:02 pm
Part of the problem with why you got lynched during lylo is because your attacks and defenses weren't very strong. Going after webadict because he used Heliman as a shield isn't very effective, because it would have been perfectly alright for him to do that if he actually were a cop. Instead, you should've gone after him for making bullshit up about you and trying to pass it for scumhunting. E.G., he accused you of being scum because you were trying to be friendly by using smilies. Just call bullshit on that. Also, you mentioned that you didn't trust webadict's claim but you didn't do anything about it. You should've. Mentioning it but not doing anything about it makes it look like you were more interested in the WIFOM of a fakeclaim than you were actually finding out whether that's the case. That made you look scummy.
Additionally, you weren't very forceful with your attacks. It was lylo, and you were apologizing for making poor arguments. You want to look confident that your target is scum, and if you're in the lead for votes, you also want to look aggravated that you're going to get lynched and lose the game. You didn't really look either, unfortunately.
Does that help? If I can think of anything else I'll let you know about it.
Post by: major_sephiroth on April 24, 2011, 05:41:53 pm
And yeah I'm a horrible town. If you have any specifics to bring up, tell me. I'm here to get better.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 24, 2011, 06:44:06 pm
I think I explained well enough how you dug your own grave here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80018.msg2136077#msg2136077).
Post by: Toaster on April 24, 2011, 07:28:39 pm
Post by: Orangebottle on April 24, 2011, 08:59:55 pm
*head explodes*.
Bleh. Damnit.
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 24, 2011, 09:10:20 pm
*reads final post of game*.I told you man. I TOLD you about scum!
*head explodes*.
Bleh. Damnit.
Post by: Heliman on April 24, 2011, 10:50:46 pm
Post by: Heliman on April 24, 2011, 11:14:01 pm
*Rereads the post over and over again**reads final post of game*.I told you man. I TOLD you about scum!
*head explodes*.
Bleh. Damnit.
IT KEEPS HAPPENING
Post by: Orangebottle on April 25, 2011, 12:31:33 am
LNCP was even telling me to scumhunt Wuba yesterday! D:<
Post by: Vector on April 25, 2011, 12:37:07 am
I KNEW one of the ICs had to be scum.
Well, no, actually >_> Wuba wasn't even an IC.
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 25, 2011, 12:40:23 am
And that is exactly the sort of logic I've warned against. You can't make assumptions like that.
Post by: Orangebottle on April 25, 2011, 03:05:41 am
Players:Heliman, TownOrangebottle, TownBreadbocks, Secret Agent (Mafia)CrownofFire, TownSimmura McCrea, Townmajor_sephiroth, Town
ICs:Jim Groovester, TownToaster, Town
webadict, Secret Agent (Mafia)
Ssssssuuuuuuurrrreeeeeeee.
Wuba wasn't an IC at aaaallllllllll.
Post by: IronyOwl on April 25, 2011, 03:11:02 am
However, that doesn't change the fact that "one IC must be scum" is not a valid assumption. Reading into the NKs is also dangerous, so the mere fact that he didn't die wasn't really proof positive either. Especially since killing the other two didn't shut them up all the way, which would presumably be the point.
Post by: Supercharazad on April 25, 2011, 04:29:17 am
Post by: Simmura McCrea on April 25, 2011, 07:40:54 am
Post by: webadict on April 25, 2011, 09:04:17 am
:( Now I feel like this win wasn't deserved.
I have to ask: Both webadict and OB called me female. Where did you guys get that from?LNCP yelled at me that you were a girl. I was like, "Really?" And then shifted. Blame LNCP for that one, since I always assume everyone's a guy unless they say otherwise.
I just really wish I could have posted more. But with that sudden interruption, that was mostly out of the question. But from what I posted, how well did I do, and how could I improve? (That's to everyone who thinks they have some input, by the way.)I wrote some stuff in scumchat about what I was doing and it did involve using you as bait for Orange. Read that for more on my thought process.
But yeah, what Jim said. If you wanted me lynched, you needed to go offensive fast. It wasn't about countering me, it was about getting OrangeBottle to stop tunneling you. The shield thing WASN'T what you wanted. I had had that started since partway through Day 2 to protect me at lylo. I was always going to kill him to make me look scummy, for the WIFOM.
He was arguably one of the board's very best players in a noob game. I'd say he was an IC regardless of official classification.I'm gonna have to disagree with the not reading into the NKs, but don't focus on doing it. I killed the way I did because I was trying to look like a newbie the whole game, then pin the blame on myself. The fact that a newbie would NEVER EVER do this should have crossed someone's mind.
However, that doesn't change the fact that "one IC must be scum" is not a valid assumption. Reading into the NKs is also dangerous, so the mere fact that he didn't die wasn't really proof positive either. Especially since killing the other two didn't shut them up all the way, which would presumably be the point.
However, you shouldn't make an argument out of the NKs, since that will fail. You should simply use it as mental stretching, to think about what that person's state of mind is. "He killed webadict because he wanted to get him out of the game, or because he knew there was no doctor, or because he knew the doctor wouldn't protect him. Narrowing that down and looking at the previous Day, webadict was looking scummy to other people, so the Doctor's protection would like not save him, but he wasn't likely to get lynched, so he was at least a viable threat." I don't know why people try to look at who was suspicious of who when they died, since I kill based on likelihood of me looking like scum but not actually getting lynched, since the person that you least suspect is always suspicious and the person you most suspect is going to get lynched. So, the key is to always be middle suspicious, since no one actually suspects you.
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 25, 2011, 09:13:22 am
LNCP yelled at me that you were a girl.
I didn't, actually. When I saw you using "she" I was just as shocked as you were. :I
Post by: webadict on April 25, 2011, 09:17:00 am
Hmm... I didn't mean to type she... I must've read she from somewhere else. I dunno.LNCP yelled at me that you were a girl.
I didn't, actually. When I saw you using "she" I was just as shocked as you were. :I
Post by: Orangebottle on April 25, 2011, 12:12:19 pm
Quote
74
LNCP
04-18-2011
05:00 PM ET (US)
...You do realise D3 is over, roight?
And Simmura's a she? :I
Got it, Heliman nightkill it is. I'd have liked you to be more high-profile but eh, kinda late now.
From scumchat. :V
Post by: Ottofar on April 25, 2011, 12:56:45 pm
Post by: webadict on April 25, 2011, 02:03:57 pm
Post by: Powder Miner on April 25, 2011, 11:02:19 pm
Post by: Heliman on April 25, 2011, 11:15:21 pm
Post by: ECrownofFire on April 25, 2011, 11:49:42 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 26, 2011, 12:11:53 am
You'll do fine.
There's no reason to be anxious about it.
Post by: Supercharazad on April 26, 2011, 05:34:46 am
So anyway, how do you all think I'd do in a "real" game? I want to get involved with some more Mafia, but I don't want to be curbstomped. Any recommended recurring or upcoming setups for me?
You could help populate the beginners vengance.
Post by: webadict on April 26, 2011, 10:07:39 am
Post by: The King of Eggs on April 26, 2011, 02:03:03 pm
**reads posts**
**headwall**
**wakes up after concussion**
**reads posts**
**headdesk**
and so on...
I am sorry (directed at replacement)
mental note: probably don't sign up here again... embarrassment is high -.-
and just because... told you so
Post by: webadict on April 26, 2011, 02:11:25 pm
**no longer ill**Your replacement did fine. I was planning on switching my vote, but the Day ninja-ended.
**reads posts**
**headwall**
**wakes up after concussion**
**reads posts**
**headdesk**
and so on...
I am sorry (directed at replacement)
mental note: probably don't sign up here again... embarrassment is high -.-
and just because... told you so
You probably might want to work on your mafia game a little though. Playing IRC Mafia is nice experience building, and works on your quick-thinking.
Post by: Vector on April 26, 2011, 04:43:17 pm
mental note: probably don't sign up here again... embarrassment is high
Oh, don't worry. I've lynched confirmed townies before and people don't give me too much shit about it (anymore). So come by and play! It's always nice to have more players :D
Post by: webadict on April 26, 2011, 05:25:40 pm
I was a confirmed townie before and still didn't win. :(mental note: probably don't sign up here again... embarrassment is high
Oh, don't worry. I've lynched confirmed townies before and people don't give me too much shit about it (anymore). So come by and play! It's always nice to have more players :D
Post by: breadbocks on April 26, 2011, 07:29:43 pm
Post by: webadict on April 26, 2011, 07:47:12 pm
Oh, hey Wuba. what was the cheat-y way you knew Heli was town? Or was it just cause you were mah scumbuddy?LNCP said it already, which I should mention he needs to stay out of the game. He defended King and my reasons. That was bad modding. Bad!
Post by: breadbocks on April 26, 2011, 08:06:41 pm
Post by: The King of Eggs on April 27, 2011, 10:36:06 am
**no longer ill**Your replacement did fine. I was planning on switching my vote, but the Day ninja-ended.
**reads posts**
**headwall**
**wakes up after concussion**
**reads posts**
**headdesk**
and so on...
I am sorry (directed at replacement)
mental note: probably don't sign up here again... embarrassment is high -.-
and just because... told you so
You probably might want to work on your mafia game a little though. Playing IRC Mafia is nice experience building, and works on your quick-thinking.
I was referring to my play.
I swear to whatever I will play better if I play here again -.- stupid illness
Post by: Supercharazad on April 27, 2011, 01:06:16 pm
He was arguably one of the board's very best players in a noob game. I'd say he was an IC regardless of official classification.
I think of him as sort of a "Granny Weatherwax" type person.
"No no no, Mistress Weatherwax isn't the leader of the witches, there is never one of those. Besides, Mistress Weatherwax would never allow it"
Post by: lordnincompoop on April 27, 2011, 02:09:03 pm
Oh, hey Wuba. what was the cheat-y way you knew Heli was town? Or was it just cause you were mah scumbuddy?LNCP said it already, which I should mention he needs to stay out of the game. He defended King and my reasons. That was bad modding. Bad!
Yessir
I was debating saying even more, but decided against it seeing as I don't really have the necessary qualifications or the position to do so.
Post by: Heliman on April 28, 2011, 07:22:30 pm
Post by: Jim Groovester on April 28, 2011, 08:16:03 pm
We would've been impressed regardless, but noooooo. Gotta prove yourself by taking on the ICs for no good reason.
Don't do that again.