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Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Topic started by: Toady One on March 24, 2011, 06:12:28 pm

Title: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Toady One on March 24, 2011, 06:12:28 pm
The twelfth one has been posted. (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/df_talk.html)

Any comments about the format, content, quality, etc. of the call are welcome.  There was an inn discussion, some Q&A and a kind of retrospective on DF development and other goings on.  I think my mic should finally be adjusted properly for next time.  This time we still had to adjust the levels a bit afterward.  We should also be listed on iTunes now for people that have asked for that, though it might take a bit to show up in searches.  http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/dwarf-fortress-talk/id427145565

Ask questions via email (see this thread) (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=44597.0)!

The transcripts by mallocks have been posted, available at the DF Talk page or here: Transcript (http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_12_transcript.html)

The last thread was derailed -- please try to stick to this specific episode.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Kadzar on March 24, 2011, 07:14:39 pm
Just to get the ball rolling:
I like the idea of booze qualities. I wonder, would that mean we could have artifact beer?

I also like the idea of Hill Dwarves. It would be nice to be able to have a large military without having hundreds of dwarves pathing through your fortress. With them surrounding your fortress, it would be like you have your own town or city and the fortress can be the citadel. It might be nice if the hill dwarves could come onto your map sometimes to help with building projects, or any other general unskilled labor. Although, since they're probably not technically under your control, you'd have to pay them, or at least lower their taxes. Then you could fill up your citadel with just your cadre of skilled elite dwarves.
Another thing to add is that I like the idea that you could interact with entities from outside your fortress in a ways that don't involve killing them or bartering goblin socks for cloth. If guests are going to be paying for drinks and lodging, I'm guessing they're not going to be bringing wood logs to the bar as payment; maybe we'll see implementation of a currency system around this time. Hopefully it wouldn't have the problems the previous implementation of coins in Fortress Mode had.

Anyway, I like the idea of being able to set up a casino to trick the Elves out of their animals, it's slightly more sporting than just seizing them. And speaking of Elves, I wonder how their parent civilizations will feel about the player having them hammered.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: atomfullerene on March 24, 2011, 07:27:09 pm
Dwarves should play darts in the tavern, and this should actually train throwing. (my apologies if this actually comes up later in the talk...I am in the middle of it right now)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: mrbaggins on March 24, 2011, 07:28:36 pm
Yeah, there really needs to be a way to restack items that are close to identical, especially coins. Or to merge them and recalc the value. It seems silly that you can drag the same amount of prepared meals to the depot using 1 stack in 1 barrel or 300 individual dishes.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Levi on March 24, 2011, 07:38:48 pm
That was a FAST transcript.  Ha!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: krenshala on March 24, 2011, 07:42:14 pm
Quote from: The Great Toady One
  • Fixed some capybara and panda typos and tweaked giraffe and reptile eggs
... giraffe eggs?  :o ::) :D
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: monk12 on March 24, 2011, 07:45:41 pm
Just to transfer my thoughts over from the former thread...

I haven't finished listening to it yet and as usual I've zoned in and out, so I'll be more vocal about content once the transcript is up (thank you very much mallocks.) I'm certainly much more excited about Taverns than I was (Release 3 is looking to be a good one!) especially since one of my fondest wishes is for everything in the game to have some purpose- instruments and games as something other than Vendor Trash makes me giggle like a schoolgirl. I also applaud whoever threw in the audio gag with the background music right around that discussion. And as long as I'm rambling, I'm looking forward to Bandits rolling into town like an old west movie, and the Sheriff and his posse follow them around to make sure they don't make trouble, or maybe a rival bandit group rolls in and starts a fight when they find the first one already in the tavern, and suddenly your sheriff has Justice to dispense on somebody other than some poor metalsmith who couldn't come up with nickle for a mandate.

If it is possible to get an answer without fanning the flames, is there any particular reason for the short(ish) interval between this Talk and the last one? I'm not at all displeased, mind you, but since it has been released along with the latest Release, I feel a bit like I did as a kid and saw too many presents under the Christmas Tree.

EDIT: Holy carp the transcript is up. Thank you much, mallocks!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Rainseeker on March 24, 2011, 08:06:49 pm
If it is possible to get an answer without fanning the flames, is there any particular reason for the short(ish) interval between this Talk and the last one? I'm not at all displeased, mind you, but since it has been released along with the latest Release, I feel a bit like I did as a kid and saw too many presents under the Christmas Tree.

There's a pretty good reason for that, and that was because I edited it 2 days after we recorded.  I was also pretty motivated to do so, since I was allowed to shamelessly promote my website in this past episode, Rattownstories.com (http://Rattownstories.com).
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: monk12 on March 24, 2011, 08:39:05 pm
If it is possible to get an answer without fanning the flames, is there any particular reason for the short(ish) interval between this Talk and the last one? I'm not at all displeased, mind you, but since it has been released along with the latest Release, I feel a bit like I did as a kid and saw too many presents under the Christmas Tree.

There's a pretty good reason for that, and that was because I edited it 2 days after we recorded.  I was also pretty motivated to do so, since I was allowed to shamelessly promote my website in this past episode, Rattownstories.com (http://Rattownstories.com).

Speaking of, that looks pretty good- I'm following it. I was gonna make a comment to that effect but it ended up being more work than I wanted to deal with with a hot, fresh DF and DF Talk to mess with.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Mel_Vixen on March 24, 2011, 08:44:13 pm
You guys spoke of the growing community which is kinda nice, it shows that Df doesnt exist in a vacuum. I actually would like to see some translations of the transcripts into other languages so more people can enjoy them in theyr full glory.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: ahonek on March 24, 2011, 08:50:16 pm
This might have been mentioned before, but if I can serve drinks to Elf visitors, and barrels of extracted spider venom already exist in the game...

Still -> Brew poison drink
Requires distillable plant item, food storage item, and Fun Poison Venom item.

Hmmm... ;)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Mel_Vixen on March 24, 2011, 09:09:07 pm
This might have been mentioned before, but if I can serve drinks to Elf visitors, and barrels of extracted spider venom already exist in the game...

Still -> Brew poison drink
Requires distillable plant item, food storage item, and Fun Poison Venom item.

Hmmm... ;)

Alana Elf has rocket out x26
Alana Elf lost part of her memory
Alana Elf lost a Kidney x2
 
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: nenjin on March 24, 2011, 09:12:59 pm
Re: Giraffes are just big cows.

Cows can't do this in combat. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7HCIGFdBt8)

Just had to add that :P The talk as always is inspiring. Hill Dwarves being described in more detail, and the potential embark scenarios, kind of blew my mind with how it might change the basic scope of Dwarf mode.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Ethicalfive on March 24, 2011, 09:37:14 pm
Just wanting to say that I loved this talk! Totally kick ass guys. Glad a new talk was released so soon. Somehow I felt compelled to donate after listening. Lets all donate and make toady our game making slave!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Gatleos on March 24, 2011, 10:00:22 pm
For some reason, the first thing I thought of when Toady mentioned "games" at the Dwarven taverns was some kind of complex lever-operated pinball machine. Make it so.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Michael on March 25, 2011, 12:50:36 am
At one point they are talking about the fate of abandoned fortresses.  One thing that struck me is that their discussion assumed that the fortress was abandoned because it was fundamentally non-viable for whatever reason.

It's quite possible, even likely, that a human player may hit the "Abandon" button even when the fortress is okay, so far as the dwarves' immediate needs are concerned.  For example, he might be building a megaconstruction or elaborate plumbing scheme, discover some irreversible mistake or interfering map feature, and decide to try again on a blank slate.  In such a case, the individual dwarves should logically think "We know of no enemies in the fort; the plump helmet farms are fine; the still is working; each of us has a furnished and smooth room; let's just stay here."
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: drvoke on March 25, 2011, 03:08:46 am
Hill Dwarves!  Now my ASCII art reward/story makes sense!  That's pretty exciting stuff!

I dunno if it's kosher to post our story rewards here, but in case anyone is interested:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Make of it what you will.

I also want to add that I now understand a bit better why people are so keen on regular releases.  I didn't start playing DF until around Feb/March of last year, so I wasn't around for the 19 months of no releases.  I would find that absolutely shocking if it happened now.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Pita on March 25, 2011, 03:33:11 am
When the conversation mentions migrants and refugees (and a sudden start) I thought it would actually be an interesting embark scenario once those are in. You would have to somehow be able to select wandering populations to be your starting party.. (a precusor to this would be being able to embark with a party from a particular site rather than an entire civilization I suppose too).

Not sure how I feel about being able to take control of a dwarf to play a game in a fortress mode... Feels like it's crossing the line of dwarf-autonomy, and more than that I don't think that mode really needs mini-games. Seems more like adventure mode stuff.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Cruxador on March 25, 2011, 03:38:32 am
Not sure how I feel about being able to take control of a dwarf to play a game in a fortress mode... Feels like it's crossing the line of dwarf-autonomy, and more than that I don't think that mode really needs mini-games. Seems more like adventure mode stuff.
It's not like it's mandatory. Just an option, in case you feel like it.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: monk12 on March 25, 2011, 10:05:43 am
Not sure how I feel about being able to take control of a dwarf to play a game in a fortress mode... Feels like it's crossing the line of dwarf-autonomy, and more than that I don't think that mode really needs mini-games. Seems more like adventure mode stuff.
It's not like it's mandatory. Just an option, in case you feel like it.

Yeah, I can live with it just being a fun little thing you might do every once in a while- not so much if I need to play Hold'm with the Human Diplomat to convince him to lift the siege. Not that that wouldn't be a cool thing for my baron to do on his own initiative, mind you.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: ahonek on March 25, 2011, 10:12:25 am
Yeah, I am thinking about it in terms of the possession spell in Dungeon Keeper. You don't have to use it, and I'm sure some people have never used it, but every now and then if you want to run an imp around your dungeon and carve hallways in exactly the order you want the tiles removed, you are able to.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: nil on March 25, 2011, 12:17:56 pm
Everything about hill dwarves and the removal of artificial barriers between your fortress and the outside world sounds awesome.  That said, I was a little hesitant during the treatment of inn games.  It's not that it wouldn't be cool to have games that could be played and won in adventure and fortress mode via skill and strategy, I just think there's a danger of putting in too much programing time into too little benefit.  Designing the game, designing the interface, designing opponent AI--sounds like a lot of work for something that would be a barely consequential little diversion in most fortresses and adventures.  Sticking to games that depend on chance or skillchecks would be at least half as awesome and ten times easier.

Dwarves should play darts in the tavern, and this should actually train throwing. (my apologies if this actually comes up later in the talk...I am in the middle of it right now)
On the other hand, atomfullerene is really on to something here, imo.  Tavern activities could be a great opportunity to give dwarves the ability to practice a few of the secondary, hard-to-train skills like observer, teacher, student, leader, throwing, maybe even kicking and biting (goblinball and plump helmet eating contests?).
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: monk12 on March 25, 2011, 02:13:53 pm
Everything about hill dwarves and the removal of artificial barriers between your fortress and the outside world sounds awesome.  That said, I was a little hesitant during the treatment of inn games.  It's not that it wouldn't be cool to have games that could be played and won in adventure and fortress mode via skill and strategy, I just think there's a danger of putting in too much programing time into too little benefit.  Designing the game, designing the interface, designing opponent AI--sounds like a lot of work for something that would be a barely consequential little diversion in most fortresses and adventures.  Sticking to games that depend on chance or skillchecks would be at least half as awesome and ten times easier.

Dwarves should play darts in the tavern, and this should actually train throwing. (my apologies if this actually comes up later in the talk...I am in the middle of it right now)
On the other hand, atomfullerene is really on to something here, imo.  Tavern activities could be a great opportunity to give dwarves the ability to practice a few of the secondary, hard-to-train skills like observer, teacher, student, leader, throwing, maybe even kicking and biting (goblinball and plump helmet eating contests?).

I could see something where parties have skill challenge games as either a random impulsive activity or more of an organized fair/festival thing. Archery contests, wrestling matches, races, and sports would be traditional examples common to most cultures (Dwarven Olympics, anyone?) with maybe some procedurally generated competitions based on culture. Eating contests probably fall in there, along with swimming, storytelling, singing, and so forth. Participants train appropriate skills in small amounts, winners get big happy thoughts, everyone enjoys playing and maybe the one sore loser is unhappy his rival beat him. There might even be Serious Business recreational activities sponsored by the fortress (ie player) or by individual nobles who like the activity, and these special ones might attract competitors from surrounding areas. Jousting tournaments spring to mind, or get a whole Robin Hood thing going on where people you might not normally let into the fort get a free pass if they arrive as competitors.

/ramble
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Jiri Petru on March 25, 2011, 02:35:21 pm
This was definitely one of the best DF talks so far. Full of new information, and cleverly done to cover different kinds of issues - both long term goals, short term goals and some reflection on the past, and even some insight about Toady's design approach (the AI stuff). It was a very good mix, and I think it would be worth it to go for something similar in the future.

Inns and taverns were enlightening and it was exciting hearing about something that's coming in the near future as opposed to huge but distant goals.

Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Lac on March 25, 2011, 03:33:48 pm
I really enjoyed this DF talk; thank you!

I find it quite hard to listen intently for so long; my personal strategy is to play Spider Solitare whilst listening; it seems to keep the bits of my brain that aren't involved in listening occupied without getting too distracted and zoning out for whole sections.  But I still love the format, as I feel Toady commits to more detail (no, detail is the wrong word; possibilities and example intricacies) than he would in writing plus it forces him to think ahead and keep a complete picture in mind (although its obvious that he and Threetoe must spend long sessions talking stuff through).

I was a bit confused between muddle of random versus procedurally generated.  (Ignoring the scientific definition of random against the programming one which I think Toady nearly sidetracked into).  I thought procedurally generated is where you try for a more a coherent/consistent look&feel by specifying rules (probably with some randomisation involved) between placement of new components against existing/already placed ones.  Whereas random is just 'we can use one of the following from this list with these probabilities' with little thought to how the entire scene is building up (except when setting the probabilities).  Although just typing this I can see there's a grey area in the middle.  Procedurally generated (my definition) is what I would expect from Toady!

Keep up the good work.


PS  I wonder how long it will be before you can stick the audio and Malloc's transcription into an app and have it sync the two together with read-along highlighting and audio bookmarks!  sigh.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Jeoshua on March 26, 2011, 04:53:56 am
"Drink Quality is deffinitely going in"

Thank god.

I can't wait for my Dwarves to be sipping on masterwork booze.  I wonder if artifact booze will ever get made.

Sure, you couldn't drink it, but it's so Dwarfy

FIREWATER, THE LEGENDARY BOOZE!

This booze is made of Sunshine.  It is mixed with Dwarven Wine, Kaluha, and Diorite.  The booze menaces with spikes of adamantium. 
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Lac on March 26, 2011, 08:08:11 am
The booze menaces with spikes of adamantium.
Dwarves ought to have ethics against spiking drinks!
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Rose on March 26, 2011, 10:15:59 am
I, for one, look forward to setting up a fortress on a busy highway and running a booming roadside inn.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 26, 2011, 12:08:34 pm
I, for one, look forward to setting up a fortress on a busy highway and robbing travelers blind.

So do I.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: monk12 on March 26, 2011, 12:27:35 pm
The booze menaces with spikes of adamantium.
Dwarves ought to have ethics against spiking drinks!

Knowing dwarves, they probably have ethics against NOT spiking their drinks.

"Orange juice, eh? What's in it?"
"Er... orange juice. That's it."
"...you sick bastard."
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Urist Imiknorris on March 26, 2011, 12:36:01 pm
The correct answer should be "dwarven rum, whole oranges, and a tablespoon of forgotten beast extract."
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: monk12 on March 26, 2011, 01:18:18 pm
The correct answer should be "dwarven rum, whole oranges, and a tablespoon of forgotten beast extract."

*shudder*

My current fort has FB extract that causes severe blisters; thankfully nonfatal, and everything bigger than a cat makes a full recovery, but still...



heh. still.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Uristocrat on March 26, 2011, 09:34:50 pm
"Drink Quality is deffinitely going in"

Thank god.

I can't wait for my Dwarves to be sipping on masterwork booze.  I wonder if artifact booze will ever get made.

Sure, you couldn't drink it, but it's so Dwarfy

FIREWATER, THE LEGENDARY BOOZE!

This booze is made of Sunshine.  It is mixed with Dwarven Wine, Kaluha, and Diorite.  The booze menaces with spikes of adamantium.

There just *has* to be a booze made from berries and gneiss (see my sig) :)
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Jeoshua on March 27, 2011, 04:39:43 am
I've read your sig, and I still agree with the response to said joke.

*shudder*
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Captain Alchatron on March 27, 2011, 11:41:30 am
What Toady said about unknown ends to fortresses and then about mosquitoes jigged out my memory of Paestum!  It'd be great if that sort of thing could come out of the game, one day: Paestum was a Roman settlement made at the bottom of a wooded hill.  Naturally, the Romans deforested the place to use for their hypocausts— so the rain that the trees used to soak up slid down the hill and made the place into a marsh, bringing a bunch of mosquitoes around until the town was completely wiped out by malaria.  It was discovered hundreds of years later, intact but in the middle of a swamp!  Now that sort of thing would make losing fun.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: de5me7 on March 29, 2011, 08:36:28 am
i enjoyed this dftalk

the retrospective was awsome, downloading 2006 version now


beavers would be possible, but only at high ecological accuracy with a rivers rewrite. Beavers can only dam channels about a metre or two wide. All rivers in DF are about the same width (except at the spring, ive never been to a mouth, are there deltas?). Rivers would have to be rewritten so they change in width to get bigger down stream over distances. Beavers dont eat wood, they eat either plant leaves, or bark, or if they can steal, food from fields.

Most beavers dont actually build dams. They only do this when they are at population capacity within a river basin. Usually they just burrow into the banks and live in a similar fashion to aquatic badgers or large water voles. They only start building dams when no burrowing sites are left. If they cant burrow they build lodges. But they like to exit the lodges into water, so they raise the water level to where ever they can build a lodge. This is usually in very small streams high up the river system. An even here they wont normally build massive dams (although they sometimes do), but just build a dam big enough to create a pool. Beavers are vulnerable to predators out side of water, so the tend to expand their pools if they need to reach wood bark (beavers that live in colder climates are more dependant on bark).
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: Tautou on March 29, 2011, 02:18:45 pm
Awesome talk.

Maybe have the booze's base quality come from the dwarf who distilled it but then have a secondary quality - like gems, engravings, encrusting, etc - which is based on age. Urist wants to drink his dead great-great-great-granddaddydwarf's Sunshine. And get those happy thoughts.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: monk12 on March 29, 2011, 08:39:55 pm
i enjoyed this dftalk

the retrospective was awsome, downloading 2006 version now


beavers would be possible, but only at high ecological accuracy with a rivers rewrite. Beavers can only dam channels about a metre or two wide. All rivers in DF are about the same width (except at the spring, ive never been to a mouth, are there deltas?). Rivers would have to be rewritten so they change in width to get bigger down stream over distances. Beavers dont eat wood, they eat either plant leaves, or bark, or if they can steal, food from fields.

Most beavers dont actually build dams. They only do this when they are at population capacity within a river basin. Usually they just burrow into the banks and live in a similar fashion to aquatic badgers or large water voles. They only start building dams when no burrowing sites are left. If they cant burrow they build lodges. But they like to exit the lodges into water, so they raise the water level to where ever they can build a lodge. This is usually in very small streams high up the river system. An even here they wont normally build massive dams (although they sometimes do), but just build a dam big enough to create a pool. Beavers are vulnerable to predators out side of water, so the tend to expand their pools if they need to reach wood bark (beavers that live in colder climates are more dependant on bark).

Actually, rivers in DF do get bigger. I'm on a major river right now ~44 tiles across. The trickier bit will be the aforementioned flooding. I don't know much about how long a given lodge lasts, whether that kind of thing would be something that could be established during worldgen that creates beaver sites and makes some of them create little pools next to the river. I suspect that will come after Toady figures out how to get regular floods going in rivers.
Title: Re: Dwarf Fortress Talk #12: Feedback v2
Post by: harborpirate on April 02, 2011, 02:13:56 am
Huzzah for setting it up in iTunes! I like to listen to the talks multiple times (pretty info dense), and its most convenient to have it on my portable music playing device. Having to download them to my machine, fire up iTunes, pull the file in, clean up the ID3 tags, and then finally get it loaded; only have it show up in my music list and not the podcast list... kinda sucked.

The ability to download straight on my iTouch and display with all my other podcasts? Awesome.