Bay 12 Games Forum

Finally... => Creative Projects => Topic started by: CJ1145 on March 31, 2011, 10:16:35 pm

Title: CJ's personal project, "The Color of War is Gray" OR "Pretentiousness Incarnate"
Post by: CJ1145 on March 31, 2011, 10:16:35 pm
So yeah, I'm writing a sci-fi story. There's a whole ton of background I've got set up, but I don't have time to write it right now, so I'll just leave the first two chapters (a combined total of 4500 words  :o ) and go. Any criticism, comments, or praise would be appreciated.

Spoiler: Chapter 1 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Chapter 2 (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Vector on April 01, 2011, 01:01:01 pm
I think you need a better hook.  Basically, if the first sentence is just "Space," I'm not going to read it.  Not because I dislike science fiction, but because that simple idea of "Ooh, space" doesn't grab me anymore.

As they say, the closer you get the problem to the first sentence, the more your reader has to be interested in.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 01, 2011, 02:16:18 pm
Well, that about "Space ooh" was bullshit. I went away from the forums for some time, read some good literature, or literature that no one begs you to criticise, or literature with more than a thousands words to read... and had some good night's sleep, and took up an exercise schedule. I want to say that stuff reads much clearer these days. And at least the first paragraph is readable.

If you allow for a brief digression, the longer I give feedback, the more difficult it becomes to define what characterizes good literature. You know, I used to go to all those writing blogs - yep, they give sound advice - advice that'll help you to sell your story. But does the quality of being sold make your story good? I mean the general public will suck on anything that's big and shiny...

On that profound note, I'd like to ask the author, what motivated him to write this story? Does he hope to give anything? Or to get? What's the goal? I liked the first paragraph, then I started slipping away. I'd call it, you take too much for granted. Namely, for me the Guild was a pretty vague entity, and all that stuff happening or being described in the second paragraph touched upon too lightly to be comprehensible, too quickly to involve. Yeah, and you probably should get rid of "a very grim joke" - it's words which don't really mean anything without context, which comes afterwards... I guess I'll remember some blog advice - each word should have it's place and meaning, and reason, and something...

I'll skim. You should put quotation marks around all dialogue, including "Do you think it might be Lucius?" Confusing.

A few logic slips. First, I think you meant "a knife was slipped between his ribs, and he was dead in minutes". Or maybe without "and he was..." at all. Technically, we can guess how it concluded.

I didn't understand why there's all that bullshit with cloning. If there was a woman that was ready to bear a child to Albus Amagai, why couldn't they do it naturally? I didn't read Ch.2, did soul of the father get transfered into the son? Otherwise, brains can't be cloned. And anyway, that adamantium and the Arrakis worm are kind of too obvious "hommages". So far they don't achieve anything except for the geek value and sounding silly.

Well, in general, with rought spots, the writing comes out as decent "teenage novel" kind. That's definitely for a certain demographic. And the demographic is around this forum. I don't get it.

Oh. Also. Spellcheck is your friend, and you may want to check out this nifty tool (http://editminion.com/) (which was introduced to me on this very forum by either user Fishbreath or Willfor, or somebody else with a similar two-syllable name, anyway).

If I call this good writing, I know I'm going to be called on it. But it's regular teenage writing. With pretty rich language, I think, or at least fancy.

Now, to actually make some use of my feedback, the thing you want to do is to completely ignore it and keep on trucking. I see where you're at, and pretty much nothing will do you much good here other than practice. I said my piece.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 01, 2011, 03:42:46 pm
I think you need a better hook.  Basically, if the first sentence is just "Space," I'm not going to read it.  Not because I dislike science fiction, but because that simple idea of "Ooh, space" doesn't grab me anymore.

As they say, the closer you get the problem to the first sentence, the more your reader has to be interested in.

I had trouble thinking of quite what to start it off with. I wanted to make it clear from the beginning that the galaxy was divided, but also that paragraph was something of a vehicle to introduce the first major faction, and introduce a color theme. The color of red, like blood was important to the Guild, as it's a hereditary organization, but also of rust, to symbolize that it is an ineffective and crumbling system, thus the need for change. If you have any better ideas I'm open to them, that's why I posted this here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Wow. Lot of stuff to cover here. It's reasonable stuff and I understand where you're coming from, but I'd like to at least make my intentions clear on the muddier areas.

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On that profound note, I'd like to ask the author, what motivated him to write this story? Does he hope to give anything? Or to get? What's the goal?
I guess, to tell a story? Ever since I was about 12 I've had this basic idea in my head for a story, about an intergalactic war. I never finished it entirely, because I'd read it through and see how juvenile it was, and start from scratch. But more recently, I've wondered, how did that war start? This story is something of a prologue to the story I really want to tell, a set-piece, meant to explain the world the war takes place in over the course of a novel. So, I guess it's something of an experiment as well, a story meant to let me flex my writing muscles and try to see what does and doesn't work in my storytelling style. But I also wish to entertain while I do this.

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Namely, for me the Guild was a pretty vague entity, and all that stuff happening or being described in the second paragraph touched upon too lightly to be comprehensible, too quickly to involve.
I recognize that I gave very little description of the Guild, but I was hoping to make their function and their inner-workings apparent over the course of a story. Sort of a "show, don't tell" approach. But I'm entirely novice at this, so my idea might be misguided, obviously.

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I'll skim. You should put quotation marks around all dialogue, including "Do you think it might be Lucius?" Confusing.
Among my friends this is the most consistently criticized paragraph. The thing was not meant to be a single line from a single character, but a jumble of various gossiping and shouts that demonstrate how chaotic these meetings were.

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I didn't understand why there's all that bullshit with cloning. If there was a woman that was ready to bear a child to Albus Amagai, why couldn't they do it naturally? I didn't read Ch.2, did soul of the father get transfered into the son? Otherwise, brains can't be cloned. And anyway, that adamantium and the Arrakis worm are kind of too obvious "hommages". So far they don't achieve anything except for the geek value and sounding silly.

Amagai went for cloning for two reasons. One was because it was entirely unexpected. Not only was cloning entirely unexpected, thus allowing him to keep his heir safe until he came of age, it also allowed him to hand-craft his son, and make up for his own physical shortcomings. It also allowed him to imprint whatever education he wished on him, without outside influences. And no, Albus is a posthumous character, Darius is an independent individual.

As for the "homages", yeah, maybe they were a bit gratuitous. But I needed a justification beyond "magic space ooze" for where he managed to make an otherwise unheard of cloning formula, and I figured I might as well give a bit of a nod to a novel far better than mine while I was at it. The adamantium was an unintentional reference, but looking back I can't see how I missed it.

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Well, in general, with rought spots, the writing comes out as decent "teenage novel" kind. That's definitely for a certain demographic. And the demographic is around this forum. I don't get it.
Well, I am 17... but I'd like to improve my skills, as teenage writing is not necessarily my preferred demographic. Of course, when I heard teenage I think Twilight, and I'm desperate to distance myself from that monstrosity as much as possible.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 02, 2011, 03:44:48 am
Er, I was thinking of a more traditional teenage demographic - mystery and horror stories. Felt there.

You've probably realized in the process of writing your reply that you shouldn't have needed to explain stuff to me, a reader, in correspondence. There's intended mystery, and there's the reader going "This is bullshit".

About quotation marks again. They have very little to do with creativity. They are a convenient sign to show the reader that someone's talking. It doesn't matter if that's a lot of people, but you don't want to unnecessarily confuse the reader. You can enclose each line in "", and separate from another one with - . Thus they'll still be jumbled together into a single paragraph, but much more readable.

About reasons. There is the thing with wanting to tell a story which is that "tell" implies a recipient. So you need to think who you intend your story for. You can't please everybody. With some ironing out, it can do for a teenage sci-fi... novel. If you aim at general public, with whom those writing blogs I spoke about are concerned, well, you'll have to work a bit more. Starting with kind of controversial dialogue tags topic which blog writers just "love".

Yeah, and don't forget to check out that thing I linked.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 03, 2011, 10:07:48 pm
Well, I was thinking about what you told me Supermikhail, and I also checked out that site. Very useful. I edited the first chapter to explain a little more about just what the Guild was, fixed the quotation issue, and changed around a few other things.

Spoiler: Revised Chapter 1 (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 04, 2011, 02:13:44 am
Okay. Yes, the beginning is now easier to grasp, but... As you said that teenage demographic is not for you, I'm going to get down dirty.

"You daft bastard..." It's pretty hard to take this sentence seriously, at least on this forum. I don't know if it doesn't sound childish somewhere else.

Bad choice of words - "he assured himself that assassins would start making attempts shortly". Maybe it would be better - and more sane - to say "suspected", "foresaw"?

A new thing about adamantium... I mean, amagium. Assuming a somewhat realistic universe, every stable chemical element has been discovered. Which implies that amagium is an alloy. What prevents competitors from buying a sample of amagium and reverse-engineering the composition? Especially if it's an advanced civilization - they don't even need to be able to cut it.

Issue with cloning potion - "curious chemical" mixed "with several others" sounds a bit like "wizard did it". At least either the chemical or the mixture could have a scientifically-sounding name. After all, you don't need to worry about the readers stealing the formula. ;)

With homages to Dune, I've got this idea - the thing with Dune was, the spice was an organic compound - there's a lot more variation and possibility for new compounds among organics than inorganics. It was produced by a living creature - natural compounds are always hard to synthesize, due to the complexity of the natural synthesizing system (which has been refined for millions of years). The spice had paranormal qualities - and it's this thing with paranormal - nobody can tell for sure if they exist or not, and certainly no one can say what they can or cannot do. The thing with your worms was that it's already been done (not very exciting to read). You don't want to treat science too lightly, and especially if it comes as a gimmick on the first page. And you don't want to treat a gimmick lightly. If you go with a natural cloning compound, you could think about how it could be useful in the nature of Amagai's planet. Not easy at all, but such is the life of a writer.

Which makes me think that the secret of Darius Amagai could stay secret for the readers, too, for added intrigue. You know, it could be another mystery to be uncovered in the course of the story.

How do you imagine him rolling his shoulder before talking? Well, it's certainly possible to do, but it would as certainly look stupid. Even, you know, cracking his neck wouldn't be cool because, as you've said, he is surrounded by frail old men, and this demonstration of physical power wouldn't be appropriate, either for a good character among evil ones, or the other way around.

"This is because it was several minutes, and no guards had arrived yet." It would sound better replaced by just "But no guards arrived." First, "this is" qualifies as a tense shift, second - it's just a simplistic sentence among otherwise pretty lofty style.

"Bargo had a look similar to bewildered, spoiled puppy on his face" - Bargo had a look of a bewildered, spoiled puppy. Well, you just don't say it like this. Or maybe it's a matter of conciseness.

"the funniest thing Darius had seen in his short life" - I wouldn't say that twenty years is so emphatically short.

"The Staunt’s Vipers are supposed to guard this chamber daily for the rest of the year!" Or something. They aren't guarding anymore.

"That’s insane, and more importantly completely at odds with the traditional order! The Staunt’s Vipers guard this chamber daily for the rest of the year! The Amagai do not have their turn for another decade! The pattern has been set in stone for centuries, and you dare to challenge it?” Consider this sentence without the dialog tag (which wasn't good anyway, because, as they say, try to talk in spits in real life).

The reaction of the councilors to the Darius's proof is a bit comical. At least provide a sample of the writing that made them so meek. - A more logical response would be a resentful confirmation of the fact that the paper has indeed been made with accordance with legal procedure (or however you should say it) and has Albus Amagai's signature. Something more sci-fi would involve blood analysis, or Albus announcing his will via a hologram (and they certainly could use a lawyer; or some sci-fi figure of that order). And even after that among such furious people there could be someone who would prefer to storm out of the council chamber calling the will a scam. Or something like that. It's unfortunately kind of hard to identify who's on which side there. For example Darius - a dashing rouge, or a cunning villain, or a clever messiah...

Chapter 2 for a good measure.

...Nevermind. Darius is definitely a messiah, but there's no indication of how he and Albus became this way. 40% below poverty line isn't just a number. These are people, and apparently for a long time they've been content with the situation. There must be an explanation, like a rich top supported by the military keeping the lower strata at bay, which then must be a legal situation. But if it was one of the core fields of Albus's work how come he failed to enlighten Darius on it?
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 04, 2011, 07:38:24 am
Okay. Yes, the beginning is now easier to grasp, but... As you said that teenage demographic is not for you, I'm going to get down dirty.

"You daft bastard..." It's pretty hard to take this sentence seriously, at least on this forum. I don't know if it doesn't sound childish somewhere else.

It was meant to sound silly. The council is made up of some very childish, bratty people. They're intended to come off this way.

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Bad choice of words - "he assured himself that assassins would start making attempts shortly". Maybe it would be better - and more sane - to say "suspected", "foresaw"?

I used the word "assured" because he ended up basically lying to himself. Assassins did end up coming, but it was twenty years after he first began to become paranoid about them.

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A new thing about adamantium... I mean, amagium. Assuming a somewhat realistic universe, every stable chemical element has been discovered. Which implies that amagium is an alloy. What prevents competitors from buying a sample of amagium and reverse-engineering the composition? Especially if it's an advanced civilization - they don't even need to be able to cut it.

I know, it's pretty much adamantium. But I doubt it would end up being called that unless the man who discovered it happened to be complete nerd. By chance it was an Amagai that discovered it, who was proud enough to name it after his clan. The reason it is exclusive to the Amagai clan, and certain parts of the Guild, is because it is tightly controlled. They are responsible for trade, legal and otherwise, both in and out of their cluster, and are therefore able to keep a close eye for any amagium that is being exported to an unauthorized buyer.

Of course, that is not to say that certain other civilizations are not producing it on their own. Amagium is a highly precious resource, but it is only unique within that cluster. Throughout the entire galaxy it is more common. The Amagai worry more about whether the other clans have it than if some group they'll likely never meet face to face has it.

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Issue with cloning potion - "curious chemical" mixed "with several others" sounds a bit like "wizard did it". At least either the chemical or the mixture could have a scientifically-sounding name. After all, you don't need to worry about the readers stealing the formula. ;)

Yeah, replacing the worms made it sound even more conveniently magical than before. That's pretty much a stand-in until I think of a better sounding name.
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With homages to Dune, I've got this idea - the thing with Dune was, the spice was an organic compound - there's a lot more variation and possibility for new compounds among organics than inorganics. It was produced by a living creature - natural compounds are always hard to synthesize, due to the complexity of the natural synthesizing system (which has been refined for millions of years). The spice had paranormal qualities - and it's this thing with paranormal - nobody can tell for sure if they exist or not, and certainly no one can say what they can or cannot do. The thing with your worms was that it's already been done (not very exciting to read). You don't want to treat science too lightly, and especially if it comes as a gimmick on the first page. And you don't want to treat a gimmick lightly. If you go with a natural cloning compound, you could think about how it could be useful in the nature of Amagai's planet. Not easy at all, but such is the life of a writer.

Thanks for the advice, I'll think about that.

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Which makes me think that the secret of Darius Amagai could stay secret for the readers, too, for added intrigue. You know, it could be another mystery to be uncovered in the course of the story.

That is also a good idea. I'd have to think about how I could work out the sudden appearance of Darius, but do-able I think.

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How do you imagine him rolling his shoulder before talking? Well, it's certainly possible to do, but it would as certainly look stupid. Even, you know, cracking his neck wouldn't be cool because, as you've said, he is surrounded by frail old men, and this demonstration of physical power wouldn't be appropriate, either for a good character among evil ones, or the other way around.

He isn't really trying to be intimidating there, he's just kind of stretching a bit before he talks. I guess a better way to explain it would be he is kind of rotating his arm at the shoulder.

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"This is because it was several minutes, and no guards had arrived yet." It would sound better replaced by just "But no guards arrived." First, "this is" qualifies as a tense shift, second - it's just a simplistic sentence among otherwise pretty lofty style.
Entirely my bad, I read a Terry Pratchett novel recently, and my writing style sort of gets influenced by the latest couple of books I read, so those sorts of things sneak in.

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"Bargo had a look similar to bewildered, spoiled puppy on his face" - Bargo had a look of a bewildered, spoiled puppy. Well, you just don't say it like this. Or maybe it's a matter of conciseness.

Maybe. I guess I was just trying to convey how spoiled the councilors were. That seemed the best analogy to me.

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"the funniest thing Darius had seen in his short life" - I wouldn't say that twenty years is so emphatically short.
Actually, he's only spent about 6 months out of the cloning vat so far. I planned to do a flashback later to explain how he got to where he was from there.

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"The Staunt’s Vipers are supposed to guard this chamber daily for the rest of the year!" Or something. They aren't guarding anymore.

I guess it makes more sense in my mind to have it the way I do, but the closest to a justification I can make is that she refuses to accept that this has just happened.
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"That’s insane, and more importantly completely at odds with the traditional order! The Staunt’s Vipers guard this chamber daily for the rest of the year! The Amagai do not have their turn for another decade! The pattern has been set in stone for centuries, and you dare to challenge it?” Consider this sentence without the dialog tag (which wasn't good anyway, because, as they say, try to talk in spits in real life).

Tried it just now, and yeah it does look better.

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The reaction of the councilors to the Darius's proof is a bit comical. At least provide a sample of the writing that made them so meek. - A more logical response would be a resentful confirmation of the fact that the paper has indeed been made with accordance with legal procedure (or however you should say it) and has Albus Amagai's signature. Something more sci-fi would involve blood analysis, or Albus announcing his will via a hologram (and they certainly could use a lawyer; or some sci-fi figure of that order). And even after that among such furious people there could be someone who would prefer to storm out of the council chamber calling the will a scam. Or something like that.

This was intentional. The council is meant to be portrayed as ineffectual, and this was one of the bigger hints. The fact that they're all so convinced by a single stamp actually becomes a major plot point in just a couple of chapters. They're not really meant to be this clever group of evil bureaucrats, they're a bunch of bumbling idiots who are so caught up in their own power struggles they can't even do their jobs properly.

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It's unfortunately kind of hard to identify who's on which side there. For example Darius - a dashing rouge, or a cunning villain, or a clever messiah...
Like I said, at the moment there's not really a side that could be designated as good or bad. The councilors are stupid and petty, yes, but there are proactive members among them and they aren't purposefully ruining the economy. They just can't properly manage it.

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Chapter 2 for a good measure.

...Nevermind. Darius is definitely a messiah, but there's no indication of how he and Albus became this way. 40% below poverty line isn't just a number. These are people, and apparently for a long time they've been content with the situation. There must be an explanation, like a rich top supported by the military keeping the lower strata at bay, which then must be a legal situation. But if it was one of the core fields of Albus's work how come he failed to enlighten Darius on it?

Darius does definitely appear to be the ultimate good guy in chapter 2, but I'm trying to tone that down in the following chapters. He has the best interests of the galaxy at heart, but while he is the protagonist I have no intentions for him to be the hero.

Albus happened to be a good person, one of few in the council. He saw how bad the situation was, and began to work to fix it. The many years he served did indeed see improvement, which is also why the people of the galaxy have been so complacent for the last century. As for the situation with the poverty line before that time, even if the people were able to organize enough to try and reach the Guild, they would have to go through their private military companies, each with enough firepower to take on anything that could be scrounged up by them for a fight. There may have been uprisings in the past, but they are irrelevant here.

Darius does not know about it because his education was not fully complete. Albus intended to instill him with everything, but he was killed before it could be completed. Darius was taught most of what he needed to know by Albus, but he didn't learn about the current situation in the galaxy beyond his immediate focus: the council.

Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 04, 2011, 09:05:55 am
O-okay. I can't remember when I read a comedy last time. Maybe never. You're saying that the councilors are comical characters? That's kind of poorly conveyed. I actually thought it was just bad writing and was going to get on it next time. Well, and the humor doesn't work. The beginning, which sets us into mood, is just too somber. After this beginning you expect the Guild members to be cruel and manipulating, not simple and incompetent. How do they wage their wars? And, well, you don't automatically achieve a humorous effect by saying that a character has a squeaky voice or wears funny clothes. Also, if the Amagai are so cunning and other members are so stupid, why hasn't the Guild been taken over by the Amagai, or dissolved and replaced by "the Amagai administration economics branch" or something? If you've got answers to these questions, you probably should have included them into the text from the start.

About shoulders? Albus should have explained to Darius that diplomacy starts from the toes of your boots. Rolling one's shoulders is definitely a display of physical strength and an attempt to intimidate. He probably shouldn't have done that, now that I better understand your intentions.

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"Bargo had a look similar to bewildered, spoiled puppy on his face" - Bargo had a look of a bewildered, spoiled puppy. Well, you just don't say it like this. Or maybe it's a matter of conciseness.

Maybe. I guess I was just trying to convey how spoiled the councilors were. That seemed the best analogy to me.
I meant you shouldn't say "look similar to" it's a) too long and clumsy, b) metaphors (or comparisons, a bit rusty on literature terms here) just don't work like that. You simply say "Bargo looked like a bewildered, spoiled puppy". "similar to" is just clumsy.

Why did Darius spend only 6 months out of the cloning vat? What's the point of the cloning vat if it, apparently, slows down development. In that time Albus could have had a real child and trained him in the ways of the ninja, so that Darius would conceal himself actively. And at the same time Albus would have more time to teach Darius important stuff.

Re: Chapter 3. If he knew what must be done, why couldn't Darius eliminate whoever he wanted at the council meeting, concidering he had sent all but his own guards away?

And shouldn't Layton take a bit more persuading. In my opinion he agrees too easily. Darius could be more eloquent. He basically makes a single point - 40% below poverty line. However strong a point, you don't go to court with only one.

Also, I don't think storing information on paper makes it more secure than if it were stored in a digital form. If someone wanted it badly, they could sneak in and photograph it.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 04, 2011, 02:57:24 pm
Well, I think I have miscommunicated here. I do not intend the council to be "funny", they are not meant to be "comical" as much as "comically inept".they're ruthlessly cunning in politics and espionage, but are so caught up in it their work in the economy is less.

They wage their.wars in various ways. Some prefer covert assassinations. Others, such as the twice-mentioned McCaines, are nore openly violent and militaristic.

And the Amagai were not ever naturally superior. Albus just happened to see an advantage and seize it. If he'd raised a normal son he might have become distracted or influenced by the world around him. Inside the tube Albus could teach him whatever he wanted. But since this was the first time the cloning process had been performed teaching him took a very long time, as there was no known way to speed the process up. I'll edit the chapters at another time and try to make this clearer.

As for chapter 3, Darius could not just have them killed because, simply, it wouldn't work. There would still be the extended families controlling their respective mercs. Darius could not fight them all, so he decided to coerce them instead.

Layton believes Darius simply because he wants to. Albus was his closest ally, and he wholeheartedly believes that any child of Albus is worth trusting. There is also a lot of cultural meaning to an alliance in the Guild. Have you seen the movie Highlander? In it, even the foulest most unscrupulous characters refuse to fight on holy ground. That is how sacred an alliance is to them. Most people would not break such a partnership, but the councilors literally cannot.

The paper thing, if you want, could be perceived as more inept practices of the Guild, or you could also view the necessity of hiding documents from a society so advanced that wireless hacking of electronics would be as trivial as making toast.

I don't mean to sound rude at all here, and I'm on a phone so quoting individual sections is beyond my means, but I'm just trying to explain what goes on in my head as I write this stuff.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 04, 2011, 03:49:30 pm
Didn't see anything rude. ;)

You know, what goes on in your head is exactly what we want to read here. At least I do. Or how you (and writers in general) translate into the heads of your characters. I'd much rather Darius overexplained his motivations (at least in the first draft), than I had to wonder what exactly the author meant here.

I get the cultural thing - the not-complete-humannes of the society is visible, but the rough spots overshadow it a bit. Also, similar to Dune, you could want to put more emphasis on the cultural aspects in the beginning, intermingling exposition with actual events. You kind of jump in as if it's Star Wars, and I expect to find the simplicity of Star Wars, but glimpses of not-so-starwarsy stuff confuse me. Kind of ironic how I first praised your "Space" beginning, as it might look similar to the Star Wars title roll. Of course, you may employ this as a trick slowly submerging the reader into the story, but consider Highlander (which I, being a devout Queen fan, am bound to have seen at least once) - most of the strange things are pretty much patiently explained in the first scene - medieval sword-masters with super-human abilities chasing each other throughout eternity, and aiming for only one cause of death - decapitation. I don't remember if Connor says anything about "only one" in the first fight. You, well, bring very little of the significant stuff into the beginning. Amagium and worms (or chemicals) don't seem to play a major part; Albus comes into the action already dead; intimidating military forces of the rest of the Guild are dealt with peacefully and promptly at the start of the council. What seems to continue into the rest of the story is only the political structure of the cluster, but even it is too weak to hold against Darius.

By the way, you don't want to make your antagonist(s) weak - if you intend to make the Guild members the antagonists. It's not interesting to read about a strong noble character overpower weak corrupt ones. You generally need to at least have the odds even. Although, we're only 3 chapters in, so I'm not going to play a precog here. Just passing ideas and suggestions that might be useful.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 04, 2011, 04:43:56 pm
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You know, what goes on in your head is exactly what we want to read here. At least I do. Or how you (and writers in general) translate into the heads of your characters. I'd much rather Darius overexplained his motivations (at least in the first draft), than I had to wonder what exactly the author meant here.

I get the cultural thing - the not-complete-humannes of the society is visible, but the rough spots overshadow it a bit. Also, similar to Dune, you could want to put more emphasis on the cultural aspects in the beginning, intermingling exposition with actual events. You kind of jump in as if it's Star Wars, and I expect to find the simplicity of Star Wars, but glimpses of not-so-starwarsy stuff confuse me. Kind of ironic how I first praised your "Space" beginning, as it might look similar to the Star Wars title roll. Of course, you may employ this as a trick slowly submerging the reader into the story, but consider Highlander (which I, being a devout Queen fan, am bound to have seen at least once) - most of the strange things are pretty much patiently explained in the first scene - medieval sword-masters with super-human abilities chasing each other throughout eternity, and aiming for only one cause of death - decapitation. I don't remember if Connor says anything about "only one" in the first fight. You, well, bring very little of the significant stuff into the beginning. Amagium and worms (or chemicals) don't seem to play a major part; Albus comes into the action already dead; intimidating military forces of the rest of the Guild are dealt with peacefully and promptly at the start of the council.

That's all true, and I'm considering adding more to work it all in, but it'll probably end up doubling the chapter length. Not that I'm complaining.

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By the way, you don't want to make your antagonist(s) weak - if you intend to make the Guild members the antagonists. It's not interesting to read about a strong noble character overpower weak corrupt ones. You generally need to at least have the odds even. Although, we're only 3 chapters in, so I'm not going to play a precog here. Just passing ideas and suggestions that might be useful.

Actually, the Guild are not the main antagonists of the story. I intend for them to be fully dealt with by the time the first quarter of the story is over. The story isn't so much about Darius rising to power, but how that rise to power (and the rise of another, yet to be introduced character) ends up sparking a massive conflict.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 04, 2011, 07:02:39 pm
Okay. Hey, I actually didn't read the second chapter after I discovered Darius was a strange hero. Caught up on that now. So, Darius's ignorance we've kind of figured out. Why is Bill so surprised at the 40%? He's a veteran. He's supposed to have seen a lot.

Also, you do some weirds things with some words. I noticed "energy" and "smog" with the article "a" as if countable. They, well, sound weird, even if they could be countable in some cases. But not in those. Smog probably couldn't be countable in any case.

The culture appears more prominent in the second chapter, with descriptions and conduct. However, I think the dialog could use more show-don't-tell. "Bill responded by telling the guard, whom he referred to as “Chuck”, that his boss was terrible at showing two fine ladies such as themselves a good time. One rifle-butt to the head later, a quieter Bill followed Darius inside." This set of sentences makes a person imagine the dialog in the same voice that's been setup by the starwarsy descriptions. However, if voiced directly, the way these lines were spoken could show more of the culture, speech patterns.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 05, 2011, 07:50:55 pm
I've been writing more, and editing. I have four chapters done so far, so I'll post them all in a group. Keep in mind, Chapter 1 is only changed from the last draft by adding a bit more backstory about Albus and the Guild itself, and Chapter 2's only major change was making Bill's line actually quoted to him, which I think does look better.

Spoiler: Chapter 1 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Chapter 2 (click to show/hide)

The maximum character limit has been exceeded with all four, so I'll need to double-post.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 05, 2011, 07:51:37 pm
Spoiler: Chapter 3 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Chapter 4 (click to show/hide)

There's the newest two.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 06, 2011, 08:52:05 am
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But Albus had seen their plight, and for the first time in eons a councilor felt sympathy for the less fortunate.
This part is extremely suspicious. It feels like the writer was sponsored by the clan. ;) I'd think in the face of a rebellion it was better for him to figure out some way to pacify the masses. And the rest of the Guild was probably very glad that he took the initiative.

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He experimented with it, and to his surprise found that when diluted in water and with sodium dissolved within
Made me laugh. When you dissolve sodium in water you get an explosion, first, then a solution quite hazardous to living tissue. But it wouldn't be a solution of sodium.

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If it could repair tissue, it could likely be used to grow it as well. Albus, a man with no sons of his own, found this to be a practical godsend. The Amagai clan had the means to create the perfect cloning vats.
Well, that's a parade of baseless statements. First, that's how tissue repair works - it is regrown over. Second, no, you can't just put a few hairs off your head into a nutritious solution and grow a copy of yourself. You need an ovum to start the development. Without an ovum, you'll just grow more of the same tissue (in the best, magical case). Frankly, you don't need sci-fi magics for cloning - the science and technology is available to us already. You need a womb, without it you simply won't get a child, and you might need gene manipulation, because there are bound to be cloning artifacts, like accelerated aging - age, scientists say, is encoded in the DNA, and so would be transfered from Albus to Darius.

In short, you are performing some hard-to-understand shenanigans. From any point, it would have been far easier for Albus to have a natural child. He would have managed to foster a worthy successor somehow, considering what a great diplomat he was.

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“Gotta say, Chuck, your boss could learn some manners. Two fine ladies like us show up at your door, and all you can tell ‘em is a bunch of horseshit about conduct?”
Well, the first time I thought I misunderstood. It's quite a weird thing for a grilled war veteran to willingly compare himself to a lady.

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With a strong smack, he pressed it down into the paper, leaving behind its imprint.
Try without "leaving behind its imprint." It's kind of obvious what a strongly smacked thing leaves. I've noticed that you sometimes like to state obvious things. Well, nothing that can't be corrected in rewriting.

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“It appears that you are rather bold in your design choices, Councilor Smitt.”
No, he is not bold. If he walked in the street in his design choices, it would have been bold. But it's his residence, with armed guards. He is just extravagant, or something.

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He leaned forward and stared at the Councilor intently. “Sir, I beg your pardon, but do you have any of that water left? I would love to see it for myself.”

“Alas, Councilor Amagai, I do not.” Orville responded with a dejected sigh. “When I first tasted that water, I was filled with greed, a basic need and desire for all of that water that I could drink. There was not a drop left in that bottle when I was finished with it.”

“I see.” Darius whispered. He turned back and looked at the Councilor in a colder expression than before. “Without that water then, your age must be catching up with you. You’ve probably thought long and hard about an heir, then?”
This is a strange conversation, reminding me of medieval romance. They are so obvious and so exaggerated. Are you going for Medieval romance?

Maybe what's bothering me is how the lofty language is contrasted by the vile deeds. Ehm. It's strange to see a situation like that written in the style of high fantasy. Maybe it would work with realism better.

Although, I must commend you on your dedication. That's a pretty fast pace you're moving at.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 06, 2011, 02:12:46 pm
I'm on a phone again, so I'll address a paragraph to each subject, in the order you placed them in.

I admit, when I wrote this section, I looked back and said "this guy looks like a saint." I thought about correcting it, then I thought about how this could be a good thought. What if this nigh-messianic figure's actions not only failed to save the galaxy, they brought it to ruin? It could also come to light that he's less perfect than people thought, but I don't know for sure. I probably know less than the reader in some areas.

The sodium thing was intentional, making the parts of the solution so wholly impossible that it becomes obvious that something in that fluid is extraordinary. While I'm trying to give the world depth, hard realism and science is definitely not a focus.

The whole cloning bull is my own fault. I kind of left the actual process vague on purpose due to my lack of knowledge on it. But a natural son was not an option in Albus' mind. Darius would have been born weak and fragile like the rest of the Guild, and more importantly it was possible for him to hide the vats. A living, breathing, and thinking individual would have been harder to hide and protect.

Chuck has a (sometimes bad) sense of humor he clings to. Not to mention he's somewhat insane to begin with. He was, when you think about it, the instigator for the whole coup taking place.

True, easy to fix, but it's just sort of a habit of mine that I have trouble catching.

True, it's not bold, but pretty much every word in this conversation is ass-kissing on Darius' part. He wants to make it known how highly he thinks of the Councilor, so that he might be able to influence the choice of heir.

The speech style for this part was intentional. In formal meetings like this, the Councilors intentionally up the refinement in their speech to appear more noble. And like you seemed to notice this was to contrast with just how terrible they are; they're a bunch of dirty, amoral crooks who try to act like gentlemen for the sake of their own consciences.

And thank you :)
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 07, 2011, 01:06:40 am
Don't mention it. :)

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The whole cloning bull is my own fault. I kind of left the actual process vague on purpose due to my lack of knowledge on it. But a natural son was not an option in Albus' mind. Darius would have been born weak and fragile like the rest of the Guild, and more importantly it was possible for him to hide the vats. A living, breathing, and thinking individual would have been harder to hide and protect.
It sounds like a religious thing. It might be easier to make sense of if it was a religious thing, that is, Albus thought, for example, that the human flesh of the councilors has become unpure, and so the savior has to come from an immaculate inception. Probably could save some shenanigans, and add something the reader could relate to. Well, maybe "relate" is not the right word. More like, find something familiar... No, make Albus easier to understand. Although how you work it into the plot... It could be done, by making Darius's origin an object of exploration throughout the story, or at least a part of it. Right now, the introduction seems a little too long, and as if you've told in it everything that happens in the story - Darius was created to change the world. And he proceeds to do so. There might be a little too little intrigue. Not that it's no fun watching terrible deeds unfolding, and exploring another world.

To the sodium thing. Well, everybody reading it would think that it's a goof. That is, anybody somewhat familiar with chemistry. You have to back it up somehow. At least remove water out of that. Sodium is still pretty dangerous without it. Although, what made you single out sodium is a mystery to me. Also, the closest most metals come to being dissolved is in the form of amalgams. I don't think this is a genre where you want to make intentional mistakes, or what without explanation seems to be mistakes.

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The speech style for this part was intentional. In formal meetings like this, the Councilors intentionally up the refinement in their speech to appear more noble. And like you seemed to notice this was to contrast with just how terrible they are; they're a bunch of dirty, amoral crooks who try to act like gentlemen for the sake of their own consciences.
It's more not their speech, then, but your, the author's, attitude towards it - that lofty style I keep talking about. When you surround the characters' insincere, hypocritical statements with... well, take this passage
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squealed the councilor, as he vigorously shook the youth’s hand. Darius attempted a smile
"vigorously", "attempted" (here), "squealed" (as a dialog tag) - you don't meet them out of fantasy or medieval literature, or satire these days. The reader then thinks "I'm not supposed to take this seriously, right?" - but there's not enough humor. "Is this a philosophical writing?" - well, we'll see. Also, I didn't notice much difference in Darius's speech when he was talking to councilors and to Bill. You might want to add a touch of realism into the author's words. There's a lot of you in this story (it's not a bad thing), you become a sort of meta-character, and the reader relates to you, too, becomes aware of your "actions". Although, being a beginning writer, you could leave these considerations until the rewrite, or your next novel. By the way, what's the accumulated word count?
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 07, 2011, 05:41:57 am
Hm, the religious idea is interesting. Right now the physical reasoning is that the councilors are physically weak and frail. Most that aren't skin and bones are noticeably overweight. More reason could easily be given over the course of a story, though.

The sodium is something that can be removed easily, but the water is plot-related, as it sets up part of Darius' incentive to jump off the slippery slope.

The speech issue is my fault, obviously, but I've tried and there's not much I can do about it. I've been told I have a very advanced vocabulary for my age, and I addmit my writing style is just a tad archaic, so combined this might be a bit weird for sci-fi writing. Funny story, about four years ago when I started writing the first prototype of this story, someone compared my writing to Tom Clancy. I wasn't sure whether to thank or slap him.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, Darius consistently speaks like that on purpose. He is all business all the time, or at least he wants to appear that way.

The total word count, including chapter titles (which are mostly descriptions there for my own benefit) my story clocks in just shy of 10,000 words.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 09, 2011, 08:23:43 pm
So I've written another chapter, this time focusing on Bill and the assassinatin of Councilor Smitt. I was originally planning to have Chapters 4, 5, and now 6 all take place in a single chapter, but I realized that was way too long compared to the short in comparison chapters before it. So I've split them up.

Also, based on the views this thread's got it can't just be me and Supermikhail reading this. If anyone else is reading and likes the story, hates it, or wants to comment on something, feel free to post. Getting constructive criticism is why I post this here.

Spoiler: Chapter 5 (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 10, 2011, 02:17:56 pm
Hey, look, tl;dr! 8) Well, either my nemesis has caught up with me, or you kind of overdid it this time. Seriously, I don't know what it is with forums, but they are very unsuitable for long prose. Maybe it's a myriad of links to reply, go to other threads, check out the news, etc, but it's pretty hard to concentrate on something as long. Well, you've split the chapters up... but maybe it's time you did some rewriting, for conciseness. Like, the third paragraph - exposition, again - give us some action! It's like a history class. Maybe it's just me, but I think that it's much more fun to infer this stuff from subtle hints in the action. And actually, you've said it all in the two previous paragraphs. It's perfectly clear that Crimsons and Badgers aren't on friendly terms. You won't attract more readers by long-winded abstract explanations.

Also, there's a lot of chit-chat before the climactic assault. I couldn't understand at first why they all got together. The beginning could make more of a point.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 10, 2011, 08:08:33 pm
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but maybe it's time you did some rewriting, for conciseness. Like, the third paragraph - exposition, again - give us some action! It's like a history class. Maybe it's just me, but I think that it's much more fun to infer this stuff from subtle hints in the action.
True, and fair enough. I'm just not quite sure how I would accomplish this. It'd doable though, I guess it will just take a while.

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Also, there's a lot of chit-chat before the climactic assault. I couldn't understand at first why they all got together. The beginning could make more of a point.
I don't actually quite understand what you mean here. Could you explain please?
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 11, 2011, 04:55:41 am
Okay. I guess what I actually meant with my second paragraph is that you should cut the whole morale speech together with exposition. I can't help but imagine it as a chapter exclusively for an assault mission, which should start with the beginning of the assault - that is, as the troops are landing... If we agree that the morale speech doesn't add anything to the plot, the cussy, slack way it's performed by cap'n Bill doesn't really serve to keep attention.

Yeah, is the rivalry between troops going to have some impact on the plot later?
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 11, 2011, 07:22:21 am
Okay. I guess what I actually meant with my second paragraph is that you should cut the whole morale speech together with exposition. I can't help but imagine it as a chapter exclusively for an assault mission, which should start with the beginning of the assault - that is, as the troops are landing... If we agree that the morale speech doesn't add anything to the plot, the cussy, slack way it's performed by cap'n Bill doesn't really serve to keep attention.
I understand what you're saying here, but I can't help but feel that if I got rid of it the new question would be "How did we magically teleport to the assault? What happened in-between?"

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Yeah, is the rivalry between troops going to have some impact on the plot later?
Yes, mildly so in the next chapter and more significantly later on.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Neonivek on April 11, 2011, 08:56:51 am
Odd I thought when he mentioned Sodium he was refering to salt (in the same way most nutrional guides refer to salt as sodium)
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 11, 2011, 10:24:10 am
Well. They don't refer to salt. They imply sodium ion. I think they expect a certain category to access their guides, who'd get what they talk about, because of the experience with colloquialisms like this. CJ doesn't supply the necessary chemical context, to take such colloquialisms naturally. But he still uses "dissolved", and sodium in guides refers to sodium ion. You can't dissolve an ion. Ions form after dissolving.

I understand what you're saying here, but I can't help but feel that if I got rid of it the new question would be "How did we magically teleport to the assault? What happened in-between?"
With Neonivek's appearance I guess I might be wrong about the need to cut everything. Still, does the intro answer the question of how we come to the assault? The troops were already gathered at the end of chapter 4. It is not a big logical leap from troops being gathered to troops assaulting a castle (or whatever). Yeah, like they say "do not underestimate your readers". And if you didn't write what happened in between, it means that nothing siginficant did. At least that's my two cents.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 11, 2011, 08:27:56 pm
Well. They don't refer to salt. They imply sodium ion. I think they expect a certain category to access their guides, who'd get what they talk about, because of the experience with colloquialisms like this. CJ doesn't supply the necessary chemical context, to take such colloquialisms naturally. But he still uses "dissolved", and sodium in guides refers to sodium ion. You can't dissolve an ion. Ions form after dissolving.
Chemistry isn't really my thing. Well that's a lie, I'm acing Chemistry but I try not to think about it too much. Mind you I'm not editing the posts I've made here, but I am editing the word document that holds it all, and when I reach milestones I intend to repost the story to see how it ties together in one long segment. The reason I say this is that in the updated version sodium is gone.

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With Neonivek's appearance I guess I might be wrong about the need to cut everything. Still, does the intro answer the question of how we come to the assault? The troops were already gathered at the end of chapter 4. It is not a big logical leap from troops being gathered to troops assaulting a castle (or whatever). Yeah, like they say "do not underestimate your readers". And if you didn't write what happened in between, it means that nothing siginficant did. At least that's my two cents.

True. I think I'll get to work on trying to figure out a good way to get rid of that speech while still making at least a tiny lead-up, as opposed to starting the chapter when their boots hit the roof.

EDIT: For the sake of my own pride as a shitty amateur writer, was the action itself okay?
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 12, 2011, 03:09:46 am
Okay, about that.

What does "impacted the roof with prejudice" mean? At least in the context. Do the guns have any choice about the way they do their job?

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The man behind him grabbed his shoulder as he passed a door and whispered “This is the floor, Councilor Smitt’s office is here."
You're a bit too far from the identifier of the person. It doesn't read well.

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The Captain’s eyes shot open as he cursed every word he could think of as the young man’s corpse collapsed on him.
That's called over-dramatizing. There's hardly time for that, and besides, surely he didn't expect to complete the mission without any casualties. After all, they're not ninja-sneaking in. That's the thing with over-dramatizing - it usually feels fake to the reader. You aren't going to think about the caliber of the bullets flying around you, at least not consciously. You aren't going to have time to come up with fancy swears in the middle of a battle.

And dragging the body was hardly timely or appropriate. The guy was dead - the victor does whatever he wants with the fallen. There's kind of no point.

One more point of overdramatizing - for some reason, the enemies are referred to as "men" whereas our guys are "boys", at least when they are killed. While passion in the writing is appreciated, the author is kind of expected to keep a level head. There are no good or bad guys for you, they are all your creations. Or if you imply that that's Bill thoughts, somehow mark that in the text.

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A guttural sound welled up in his throat, and his body collapsed in a single, fluid motion.
Well, that's weird. I don't know how to explain it, but this description kind of doesn't want to go with death. I expect someone to do something in a single, fluid motion of their own volition, and collapsing dead doesn't fit.

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A commotion of agreement and ashamed apologies came from Bill’s men, but they regrouped quickly and formed up into two groups of five.
There's nothing to apoligize for. There is no gun-fu. Firefight is not exact science. Somebody always gets hit by mistake, by accident, by ricochet.

Cloud mercenary exposition flow breaker. Cut it.

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The last sound he made was a pathetic hacking sound as his two sides hit the floor.
Cut that. He didn't make any sounds because there's a rampage in action.

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Bill immediately identified the Cloud’s helmet as the source of his inhuman accuracy, guiding the mercenaries movements to perfectly strike his enemies.
About that. Just yesterday... No the day before that - we talked with a guy about practical applications of katanas, and agreed that slicing a man in half, vertically, is not one of them. Especially upwards. You probably need to push on the guys head to do it. And still, you'll blunt your weapon too much for your effort, however hard it is. And I don't see much application for inhuman accuracy with such a weapon - I mean, wherever you hit you score. So, unless the computer has a "show off" setting, it's wasted.

With that said, a casual reader might not notice, or ignore, so it's entirely your choice. You've already said science is not your goal.

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Bill attempted to defend himself in this odd position
Bad choice of words for a climactic moment.

Although, the moment itself is a bit slow. I don't think many will be able to visualize everything that you wove there. It probably plays out perfectly in your mind as an action movie, but with text it's a bit hard to keep up. Maybe you could compact it, or break it up with some speech? Can't the Cloud speak?

All in all, though, frankly, you're great at visual stuff and action. I guess I took it for granted before, but it's very good and important that your characters always do something physical, supplement their speech and thoughts by non-verbal components. Yeah, Darius's rolled shoulders sent a wrong message, but at least there was a message.

One more thing. With such an action packed chapter you are expected to have similar passages later. Your story will be cataloged with combat sci-fi, so don't decide to go philosophical later on.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Willfor on April 12, 2011, 05:28:52 am
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One more point of overdramatizing - for some reason, the enemies are referred to as "men" whereas our guys are "boys", at least when they are killed. While passion in the writing is appreciated, the author is kind of expected to keep a level head. There are no good or bad guys for you, they are all your creations. Or if you imply that that's Bill thoughts, somehow mark that in the text.
With hard limited third-person perspective, there is actually no need to mark such things as the thoughts of the character as everything is assumed to be from the character's perspective. It's a fun way to write, in my opinion. It's even more fun when you take on the perspective of a character from the other side, and show the prejudices they have compared to the prejudices of the protagonist(s), not using dialogue but subtle thought clues.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 12, 2011, 05:51:39 am
Once again I lack a proper computer so I'll just respond to each point in order.

That word "prejudice" is one of my many banes when writing. I know it doesn't go there but it snuck in (I know it's sneaked but that's stupid, snuck is better-sounding to me) like it does in nearly every story I write.

The word "him" refers to Bill, so I guess I'll just replace the pronoun with his name.

The over-dramatizing wouldn't be AS bad, because I meant to say that it happened in his head. I forgot to write that I guess. As I'm planning to explain later, Bill is very attached to his soldiers. He gets very upset when they die, and at the least tries to ensure their bodies aren't harmed beyond the necessary in combat. He was forced to give up on that when his entire squad died, and he gets a rant about it later.

I hadn't even noticed the men and boys pattern. Huh. I tend to sort of space out when I'm writing. I could add a few lines to explain that these are Bill's thoughts. I think Willfor has a point though.

You're right, it does sound pretty weird.

They're not apologizing because two. Men died, they're apologizing because they're supposed to be an elite force and made a rookie mistake.

The exposition is too long, but I'll still need a few lines to show why Bill is so pants-wettingly terrified of them.

All right, I'll try cutting it though I can't exactly see why to see if it flows better.

The Cloud is actually not wielding a katana, and if I said katana anywhere that was an accident. It's more of an elongated scimitar. And the only reason the Cloud managed that kill was because of his extremely strong blade, which is essentially magical. (This does become a plot point later, it's not just a handwave.)

It isn't the best choice of words, but it. Can be easily fixed.

And thank you. I do intend for there to be a lot more action later in the story, though this is definitely the least actiony of all the versions of this story I've ever made. I'm trying to work a bit harder on the characters this time instead of just the war.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 12, 2011, 09:18:09 am
Willfor, get out of here... Or maybe I'm sorry but I was wrong. Everything... most of what I said in the Writers thread was wrong. There are no simple rules for writing, except when writers are procrastinating and want to bullshit about their art. Writing is about what reads right. Knowing what reads right is about experience. And I learn every day.

With that, I stand on my point about over-dramatizing - it doesn't work there. It's bad. I don't feel Bill enough to fit everything that goes on in the chapter into his head. He's not the third-person protagonist of the story, he's just came in to show off in this chapter. What the hell is "hard limited third-person perspective" anyway? Is it a term? :P

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The Cloud is actually not wielding a katana, and if I said katana anywhere that was an accident. It's more of an elongated scimitar. And the only reason the Cloud managed that kill was because of his extremely strong blade, which is essentially magical. (This does become a plot point later, it's not just a handwave.)
I meant that we talked about katanas extrapolating on all swords. Okay, he made that kill. Magic. Why nobody is bothered by it, that's another question. At the first strike they should have known that there's something weird about it, because if it cut a person in half like that, the first kill should have seemed like knife through butter. And there are no ordinary swords like that. Ordinary swords aren't made for cutting a person in half. In face of this evidence, Bill's men still tried to rush the Cloud. They were either suicidal, or dumb.

Just ranting. ::)
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Willfor on April 12, 2011, 11:35:02 am
Willfor, get out of here... Or maybe I'm sorry but I was wrong. Everything... most of what I said in the Writers thread was wrong. There are no simple rules for writing, except when writers are procrastinating and want to bullshit about their art. Writing is about what reads right. Knowing what reads right is about experience. And I learn every day.
You were wrong then, and you are still wrong now. I was wrong then, and I am still wrong now. We will both be wrong tomorrow. The important thing is try to make sense while we're wrong, and not take anything about this hobby/profession too seriously for the sake of our own mental health.

As the AspiringAuthorOwl (http://twitter.com/#!/authorowl) said:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 13, 2011, 04:39:55 am
But if you're wrong, it's wrong to not take anything about this hobby/profession too seriously for the sake of our mental health? Did you try to trick me by the way that spoiler doesn't show anything/image opens up an xml document!,,
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Willfor on April 13, 2011, 08:05:42 am
Did you try to trick me by the way that spoiler doesn't show anything/image opens up an xml document!,,
Twitpic images time out. I was hoping you would see it before it did. I'm going to reupload the image on a site that won't do that now.

Image troubles have been fixed.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 13, 2011, 08:32:22 am
Jeez, that's a bit extreme.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Willfor on April 13, 2011, 03:47:06 pm
Jeez, that's a bit extreme.

It's a form of meme. Like Computer Science penguin:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And Journalism Major Camel:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 14, 2011, 05:27:06 am
Well, that's all well and good but these sorts of disputes can be resolved within PMs. Willfor, if you have anything to say about the topic at hand I'd love to hear it. Otherwise feel free to continue the current discussion somewhere else.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 14, 2011, 09:28:59 am
CJ, you are not a nice boy.

I wanted to say that not taking this hobby/profession seriously is what creates all those dumb movies and books. Willfor, you might not be on a Hollywood salary right now, but I doubt you'll suddenly change to be conscious of the consequences of your words if you sign up for one.

I guess in the context of current discussion it means that CJ should stop his pseudoscience bullshit. You can omit it to avoid embarrassing yourself and deceiving others, just think about it a bit. In the end, you might even get rid of cloning. You have to be able to compromise, even on your dearest plot points. Even George Lucas had to compromise, and it made him a legendary movie. If the essence of the story is solid, it'll hold after being stripped of some supporting details.

8) I'm a witty individual capable of staying on topic under the direst of circumstances! 8)
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 14, 2011, 02:07:34 pm
I know it's pseudoscience, but later chapters definitely and quite intentionally introduce some very fantastical elements, so I'm not sure if I want to compromise here just to make something even crazier and now entirely out of left field further down the line. It's technically a sci-fi story and I classify it as such, but it's very soft science, if not fantasy in some places.

And the cloning could be removed but with the plot I have in mind I'd have to change a massive portion of the story. To continue the Lucas analogy, it would be like if someone forced Lucas to remove Yoda and the trip to Dagobah from the story. In theory it could be done, but it would have vastly changed the story and likely not for the better.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 15, 2011, 11:04:40 am
I'd like to differ - Yoda seems to me to be a mostly comic relief character. We can live without comic relief character. Yeah, he's an icon, but suppose Luke gained his powers through some actual plot development, not Jehovah Witnesses advertising. While we're on that, I think we can agree that George Lucas is just a lucky nerd, and without compromises the movies would have been simply horrible. As I don't want to be a part to creation of another George Lucas, I'm going to let you consider these few points:

Cloning is exactly about what is written on the label. It creates a genetically identical individual, which is to say, the same with the exception of a few scars - physical, or emotional, or nutritional. As opposed to a natural inception, the woman whose womb carries the embryo doesn't influence the appearance of the child, who is a copy of a single individual barring genetic modification. If you don't have anything against that we can assume that Darius looks exactly like Albus, except a "few" years younger. We can further assume that in a civilization that advanced photographs in some form are widespread, thus, a photograph of Albus at the age of Darius would be available, and maybe Darius at this age would be on the memory of one of the Guild. Therefore the Council members should be likely to recognize Darius as some relative of Albus simply visually. However, they would probably know that Albus had no such relatives. What would their assumption would be then? Considering how advanced the civilization is, cloning should be easily possible (we, Earthlings, are capable of cloning, having but dipped our feet into the cold flow of space). I postulate that councilors should have come without any trouble to the conclusion that Darius is Albus's clone. So what would all the secrecy be about?

... Also, what prevented McCaines from killing Darius after they killed Albus? Sheer surprise at finding an heir?

Edit: You know, if you're not sure about the science, you could always ask before writing. As a matter of fact, I'm here mostly to help, not to read (for the pleasure of it, that is). I guess it makes me feel important, or maybe I'm just a crazy person.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Willfor on April 15, 2011, 01:54:02 pm
Sorry Mikhail, your opinion on this differs completely from mine. Science fiction and fantasy only differ in how utterly fixated to a pornographic degree most science fiction writers are obsessed with the details. I, myself, would love a return of good authors to Space Opera and the like as I find hard science fiction to be akin to eating bread that's been baked and baked again until there's no moisture left at all.

Dune is fantasy, and yet many people herald it as the foundation of good science fiction. (the ending truly sucks though, he shouldn't have let his editor convince him to split the first one from the second one in the series... It literally almost ends mid-sentence)

CJ, I recommend you keep trucking with how you envision your world.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 15, 2011, 02:19:06 pm
You know, it's because of this stuff that no one took science-fiction seriously until the '60s - sci-fi was exactly fantasy of pseudoscience geeks with shallow, unrealistic characters, with no appeal for anyone but similar geeks, who couldn't get laid and so had to place themselves on other planets, with beauties and hi-tech. While literature can be so much more - it can educate, open our eyes to other possibilities, warn against dangers, it can guide instead of misguiding.

Although, I don't give a fuck, because I am that geek that can't get laid, and maybe because I am obsessed with truth... This is disgusting, godspeed and goodnight.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Willfor on April 15, 2011, 02:44:42 pm
As per CJ's wishes, I'm taking it to PMs.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 15, 2011, 02:53:02 pm
Well, maybe I shouldn't call it cloning, or stress that his genes were tampered with after initial cloning to change his physical appearance. Keep in mind I go back and edit small parts of the chapters on almost every reread. While I personally prefer softer science, as it allows me to be a bit more creative in the sort of characters and events I can make, I can at least explain my reasoning. I do appreciate the input from both of you, however. That's not to say I hate hard science fiction, but the softer can be just as intriguing. My personal favorite old sci-fi was a book called Midnight At the Well of Souls, and if you know the plot I think you'll understand why it's not very hard on the scale.

To answer why Darius was not killed alongside Albus, I tried to make it clear that he was still in the vat, hidden away. Albus was somewhere entirely different when he was killed.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 16, 2011, 09:15:29 pm
I've finished the first draft of Chapter 6, the last of Bill's spotlight chapters, and the culmination of the assassination of Councilor Smitt. As usual, any comments or constructive criticism is welcome.

Spoiler: Chapter 6 (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: Supermikhail on April 17, 2011, 03:08:28 pm
I guess I shouldn't drop out silently, but I've had a lot of self-doubt recently, and I'm not sure I'm actually qualified to guide other people in writing craft, so I'd like to concentrate on my own writing. I don't know what kind of feedback I can give, the last chapter definitely doesn't seem to be my cup of tea. All I see is unnecessary pathos, lack of reason, caricature villains... I'm into realism, I usually just don't understand abstract, surreal things.
Quote
He'd know the sound of that traitor wherever he heard him.
See if it sounds better replaced by this: "Traitor, Bill thought clenching his hand around the hilt of the sword."

If not, it probably means that I'm out of my league in this matter, and will do more harm trying to help.
Title: Re: CJ, unsatisfied with his shitty art, declares war on literature
Post by: CJ1145 on April 17, 2011, 08:24:41 pm
Well, I'm sorry to hear you're having issues, but I appreciate any feedback you can give. I'm not relying on you to guide me, if that's too much pressure, but I like to get opinions from as many people as possible so I can learn from that.

And to be honest, Chuck is not going to be a major villain, he's pretty much in there because one of my friends was really intrigued by his bit part in chapter 2 and wanted more of him, so I thought it would be a chance to expand Bill's backstory a bit. These last two chapters were kind of a tone shift since it was an entirely different character, so I guess there would be some marked differences.