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Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: NW_Kohaku on April 13, 2011, 11:52:56 pm

Title: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 13, 2011, 11:52:56 pm
Quote from: Uristocrat
It sounds like there are some geology changes anticipated in Release 2.  Is there anything that players could research that would be helpful?

Hard to say...  I'm going to try to add some new overall structures to it, and if people have favorites it might speed things up a bit.

First off, double thanks to Uristocrat.

First, he made the wonderful research-and-share Real Solid Density Values For Stones Thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80022.0), which includes the ability to download some raws from the DFFD to match. 

Second, he asked the question I quoted above, triggering the start of this thread. 
Hopefully, he'll be helping contribute to it, as well. 

So, general kudos to Uristocrat for his work on the subject.



The general basis upon which these suggestions rest is that you start out with a relatively "flat" map of layers, which then get altered and overwritten by new things that you do to them that push and shove or simply overwrite chunks of the terrain. 

Now, then, onto the topics of geology that my own searching can turn up:

Rework Alluvial Layers
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

River Erosion Exposing Deeper Layers (and slopes of the layers)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Folding and Subduction
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Karsts
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Intrusions (Dikes, Batholiths, Plateaus, etc.)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kimberlite Pipes
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Pingos
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Banded Iron Formations
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Mineral Deposit Rarity
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Make Felsic, Intermediate, Mafic, and Ultramafic Layer Stones More Notably Different
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As always, I encourage others to bring up their own research or expertise to help expand this list.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins
Post by: Uristocrat on April 14, 2011, 01:04:29 am
Heh, I was going to post about some stuff like kimberlite pipes, but I've been busy and you beat me to most of the good parts.  Suffice it to say that I like what I see.

To add to that, I have been reading the Petrology of Sedimentary Rocks (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/geo/folkready/folkprefrev.html), which isn't quite as boring as it sounds.  It's focused on only one of our four layer types, but it has a bunch of interesting things in there about the sedimentary layers.

Gem rarity should also be looked at a little more; it seems like it's tied up with metal scarcity right now and some of the numbers in the raws look odd to me.  It feels like you barely get any gem diversity any more and what gems you do get can be over-represented.  Though I grant that, IRL, there are gems like tanzanite that are only found in one place in the world (and it should appear in metamorphic layers, not gabbro, but I already reported that).

Diamonds are a lot more common than one might think, too, but I haven't been able to find that many good sources of data.  Complicating the matter is the fact that a basic material might be common, but gem quality stuff could be rare.  I have, for example, very large pieces of amethyst with lots of inclusions that's not really valuable at all.  Any rock shop can sell you a ton of the stuff.  But try to buy a nice gem piece and the price goes up considerably.  I don't know how much it helps, but I put some notes into the raws I made about broader classifications for the gems (quartzes, beryls, etc.), though there were some things thrown in the "other" pile that could use a second look. 

I was also debating what to do with petrified wood.  IRL, it can be polished into something like a gem.  Right now, it's just a rare, but not at all valuable rock, which doesn't quite seem right.  Lastly, there are geodes.  They can have different kinds of crystals inside them.  Maybe they don't fit into DF, but I'm not sure.

If it helps anyone, I also put up a bunch of pictures on the wiki, because I thought it would be good if people could see whatever weird stuff they just dug out of the ground.  Some of them were already there, but not linked to the articles, but I also took pictures of various bits of my own collection.  Yeah, I'm weird.  I actually have bismuth samples, gold and silver bars, native copper, petrified wood and all sorts of shells sitting around....  Which reminds me, I'd like to see pearls, coral, etc. in game sometime (they're in the raws, but I don't think I've actually seen them in game...).  It would be cool if we could trade with the mermaids and get that kind of stuff.  Knowing DF players, though, they would seize a few caravans, go to war, then harvest their bones, but that's what makes the idea so awesome.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins
Post by: Kogut on April 14, 2011, 02:15:22 am
Spoiler: This! (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 14, 2011, 12:56:24 pm
Something to add to this:

The current macro-geological models are fairly good - someone managed to make a Europe and a North America heightmap in Perfect World, and the game filled in the rivers almost perfectly on the regional scale, although it pretty much fails at the local scale.

Rather than reworking the world to fit subduction and continental drift into the game's geology models, it's probably easier to just say "here's where X-amount of folding took place" on the game map, and just make the game generate that much folding on those areas when they are randomly generated on a local level.

Then, small hills rise up or whatever on the local map over the anticline where the layers change from a regular set of sedimentary layers to an onrushing set of plutonic layers.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Quietust on April 14, 2011, 01:42:09 pm
Rework Alluvial Layers
[spoiler]Alluvial layers right now are... silly, to say the least.  You find gold veins in river beds in exactly the same way that you find copper veins inside of granite: long, snaking trails of solid gold that just sit in the sand.

Wait, what?

[INORGANIC:NATIVE_GOLD]
[ENVIRONMENT:IGNEOUS_ALL:VEIN:100]
[ENVIRONMENT:ALLUVIAL:CLUSTER_SMALL:100]
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 14, 2011, 03:03:11 pm
Rework Alluvial Layers
[spoiler]Alluvial layers right now are... silly, to say the least.  You find gold veins in river beds in exactly the same way that you find copper veins inside of granite: long, snaking trails of solid gold that just sit in the sand.

Wait, what?

[INORGANIC:NATIVE_GOLD]
[ENVIRONMENT:IGNEOUS_ALL:VEIN:100]
[ENVIRONMENT:ALLUVIAL:CLUSTER_SMALL:100]

Well, I remember having an embark with... hang on...

... Well, that's why.  Turns out I had a river with limonite and native gold near each other, and I just assumed the rest of the yellow "£" signs were gold, too.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: IT 000 on April 14, 2011, 07:06:03 pm
3d ore veins are already planned

Quote
# Release 2

    * Villager/farmer schedules/activities
    * Work with 3D mineral veins and mine maps


Of course I do enjoy your new formation ideas.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Jeoshua on April 14, 2011, 07:33:32 pm
Of course they're already planned, but this is a great breakdown of things to be aware of.

Of course, as with all beautifully designed ideas, it's a bit complex, and therefore difficult to code in.  3d ore veins are already a big challenge on the horizon, and I suspect that's why Toady is - maybe if not avoiding it - a bit more motivated to do other things, first.

That being said, if there aren't 3d ore veins before the Dwarven Mountain Homes make their re-appearance, they'll basically be pointless.  Imagine carving your fortress out of an igneous island of rock like Ayer's Rock, in Australia.  Mmmm.  Schmexy rocks.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 14, 2011, 08:50:40 pm
3d ore veins are already planned

Quote
# Release 2

    * Villager/farmer schedules/activities
    * Work with 3D mineral veins and mine maps


I know they're already planned.  That's why Uristocrat asked this, and why I quoted it:

Quote from: Uristocrat
It sounds like there are some geology changes anticipated in Release 2.  Is there anything that players could research that would be helpful?

Hard to say...  I'm going to try to add some new overall structures to it, and if people have favorites it might speed things up a bit.

This thread is the result of my player research, and lists the things I came up with as favorites.

Folding and intrusions would make maps much more exciting to dig into.  Pingos are just something so strange and funny that I ran across while going for more detail on intrusions that I had to include it.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Uristocrat on April 15, 2011, 07:25:54 am
First, he made the wonderful research-and-share Real Solid Density Values For Stones Thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80022.0), which includes the ability to download some raws from the DFFD to match. 

Actually, I should probably mention that there are a few notes and other data in those raws that I never got to typing up in the thread, especially with respect to all the gem data.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 15, 2011, 02:50:13 pm
First, he made the wonderful research-and-share Real Solid Density Values For Stones Thread (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=80022.0), which includes the ability to download some raws from the DFFD to match. 

Actually, I should probably mention that there are a few notes and other data in those raws that I never got to typing up in the thread, especially with respect to all the gem data.

You should put it in your thread, then.  From everything I've heard him say, Toady doesn't seem to care too much for downloading raws and mods, and wouldn't consider just using someone else's mod - he'd just read the argument, and make the changes to the raws, himself.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Uristocrat on April 15, 2011, 03:22:12 pm
You should put it in your thread, then.  From everything I've heard him say, Toady doesn't seem to care too much for downloading raws and mods, and wouldn't consider just using someone else's mod - he'd just read the argument, and make the changes to the raws, himself.

I probably won't have a lot of time for a while to do something like that.  I guess I can understand why someone wouldn't just copy someone's mod, generally, but all I did was to dump a bunch of IRL numbers into a text file.  So I have absolutely no objections to anyone copying that data in any way they want to for any reason whatsoever, whether it be Toady or other modders (several of whom have integrated my raws already, as I understand it).  I don't even expect attribution, let alone anything else.  Heck, I didn't even add my own name to the list of people who have contributed material properties that's a comment in one of the raws.  I did add Bohandas, though.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Silverionmox on April 15, 2011, 03:49:56 pm
With regards to mineral/element rarity, there's the earth standard and randomization. We need the earth standard for familiarity and inherent balance. On the other hand, we need randomizations to keep things fresh. IMO the best way to randomize things from world to world is to pick a few minerals and make them noticeably more or less rare. Slightly randomizing everything will in most cases not produce anything memorable, and still run the risk of unbalancing the world. Picking a few on the other hand will allow the player to notice the difference in their availability of trade goods, if not the mineral distribution of his locality.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 15, 2011, 08:17:30 pm
I probably won't have a lot of time for a while to do something like that.  I guess I can understand why someone wouldn't just copy someone's mod, generally, but all I did was to dump a bunch of IRL numbers into a text file.  So I have absolutely no objections to anyone copying that data in any way they want to for any reason whatsoever, whether it be Toady or other modders (several of whom have integrated my raws already, as I understand it).  I don't even expect attribution, let alone anything else.  Heck, I didn't even add my own name to the list of people who have contributed material properties that's a comment in one of the raws.  I did add Bohandas, though.

It's not a matter of copying, I don't think he'll even read it unless you put it in the thread, and link it to the research you did.  He doesn't look at mods.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: atomfullerene on April 17, 2011, 01:05:13 pm
You know, I'd be willing to sponsor a geologic formation if we did the same sort of thing that we did with animals...
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Jeoshua on April 17, 2011, 02:18:00 pm
Ooh, ooh... My money would go to Tectonic plate activity.  Slice biomes down the middle and fold according to the shift.  Bonus donation if occasionally they slip and deconstruct everything in the area (that isn't quake-proof)
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 17, 2011, 02:41:57 pm
Ooh, ooh... My money would go to Tectonic plate activity.  Slice biomes down the middle and fold according to the shift.  Bonus donation if occasionally they slip and deconstruct everything in the area (that isn't quake-proof)

That's more of a natural disaster.

Geologic formations would be more something of an utter mystery to dwarves, since, after all, the world is only 1050/500/125/5 years old.  Clearly, the world was created with light en-route from the stars that were millions of light years away.

The game's ability to build worlds itself is not bad.  On a macro-scale, they are pretty much fine. 

It's only when you zoom in that things look odd.  Layers and biomes end along slightly randomized lines, sort of like the Gods built the world out of jigsaw puzzle pieces that were made of different materials.  (Or maybe I should change that metaphor to "made out of different colors of Legos".)

Rivers are procedurally determined to follow one specific path based upon a starting height and the nearest local low point, and won't bother to check if there happens to be a mountain in the way - it will cleave a sheer cliff through the whole mountain if it needs to. 

In short, geology on a macro level looks like it was formed.  Geology on a local level looks like it was created.  That can change, however, if there are better rules for how rivers flow before they have a chance to start carving through mountains. 
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Jeoshua on April 17, 2011, 02:56:06 pm
No, Legends clearly speaks of times before the Age of Myth.  I mean, since there are beings that are born in the year "-268" or some such, obviously the universe was not created at that time.  Year 0, Age of Myth, is not the start of the universe, it's the beginnings of recorded history and civilization.

Dwarves would have been around, living underground, before the Age of Myth began.  It would only be relatively recently that anyone began writing anything down, but there would have been an oral history before then, similar to that of real world traditions.  For example, The Holy Bible was passed down by word of mouth between Hebraic communities since before anyone knew what writing even WAS, then when they reached Babylon, someone wrote it down.  So I'm pretty sure that someone would have mentioned "Armok's Wrath" in reference to the earth moving, a time or two.  Even if it would be ancient myth to the Dwarves, I'm sure they tell the stories to this day.

Anyways, yeah earthquakes are more of a natural disaster than a formation, but Tectonic Plates, which are EXTREMELY formative things for minerals and geology, lend themselves very handily towards their existence.  And if we don't have tectonic plates, I think we can throw out the idea of having anything remotely resembling an earth-like geology.

Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 17, 2011, 03:05:08 pm
No, Legends clearly speaks of times before the Age of Myth.  I mean, since there are beings that are born in the year "-268" or some such, obviously the universe was not created at that time.  Year 0, Age of Myth, is not the start of the universe, it's the beginnings of recorded history and civilization.

Anyways, yeah earthquakes are more of a natural disaster than a formation, but Tectonic Plates, which are EXTREMELY formative things for minerals and geology, lend themselves very handily towards their existence.  And if we don't have tectonic plates, I think we can throw out the idea of having anything remotely resembling an earth-like geology.

That -268 year old being you talked about in that other thread is a bit of a bug, I'm pretty sure.

Creatures are spawned on year 0.  If you have a short history, they will tell you that the dwarf "has the appearance of one that is 68 years old" because they were spawned already 63 years old.  That's just the limitations of the game in a sense, but it is also reflected in the way that the game plays out.

Regardless, tectonic activity depends a bit on the specific convection currents of the magma beneath the tectonic plates, but geologic time still takes something on the order of several million years to move a continent on a scale large enough that it would actually shift anything on the scale of an embark tile. 

That is a timescale outside of worldgen's capabilities. 

You can simulate the effects of tectonic activity, but it would not really have anything to do with the actual formation of continents in the worldgen.

Can we have geologic faultlines?  Yes, that is exactly what the different layers have to be in order to make sense, but that doesn't mean we are talking about tectonic activity actually taking place, that just means we are simulating the results. 
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Jeoshua on April 17, 2011, 03:13:52 pm
By that logic, erosion - which is performed already in worldgen - is outside of it's time-frame, too.  I'm not suggesting that plates slip as much as 1 km a year or anything.  Rather that when a world is randomly generated, plates are generated along with the height maps.  Then, some wizardry is performed with code (of the variety I am not conversant enough in to get into detail with), and the plates shift, folding the layers beneath them and shifting the landscape accordingly.  This would represent millions of years of tectonic shift, and would take place LONG before any creatures were spawned on the map.

I am reminded of a discussion I had in the Elder Scrolls forums, long ago.  I took the stance that the universe of TES was one much like our own, and tried a very Dwemer-esque way of explaining the heavenly bodies in that world.  My contention is that they were stars, far away.  Others were of the more literallist school.  They said that the stars were merely points of light on a flat, black expanse.  If you looked into what they were saying, they were saying that it was a game and the sky was just a .bmp image file with some white dots.

I prefer to look beyond the game into the fiction.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 17, 2011, 05:03:56 pm
I think there is a bit of a miscommunication here, because I am agreeing with you in places where you seem to think I am disagreeing.

I am saying there should be "wizardry" creating folding and the like along the different "platelets" of the different biomes that have different layers.

I'm simply saying we should just be using the already-existing "fault lines" of where the stone in the depths of the earth change from granite to gneiss when you are traveling from east to west are the already-existing "fault lines". 

Real tectonic plates perform subduction, as I made a section about in the first post, and in those areas, one continental plate is raised up over the other.  These don't create little bumps in the land, these create mountain ranges. (The Andes, the Alps, the Himelayas, etc. all mountain ranges are created by this process.)  This is where mountain ranges come from, already.  You can just assume those are where the fault lines are by the geological processes we already have in the game. 

You don't have to add something into the game artificially after the geology has been set down - it's already there.  Those areas where there are shifts in the native bedrock stone or where the mountain ranges and volcanoes form already are our "fault lines", and the "wizardry" can just be cast upon those areas that are volcanically active enough or are placed upon the implied fault lines.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Jeoshua on April 17, 2011, 05:30:10 pm
Maybe not every biome division, tho.  For example, there are many biome "faults" that differ on each side only by savagery or vegetation, or something else equally unimportant, yet the RNG makes them have different layers.  This should probably stop, or at least not be the rule.  Imagine having a region with 2570 fault lines.  Unless these faults were ranked in importance in some way, any realistic simulation of their effects on the surrounding terrain would lead to way more mountain ranges than we have now.  Also, in reality, biomes are often the same on both edges of a fault line, with the possible exception of truly spectacular subduction rises like the Himalayas.

If there is a complete overhaul of the minerals and fault lines are included, it might be better to generate and simulate them separately from the biomes.  The biome differences in minerals, which are already in, would probably be better served realistically by allowing a variance of the type of rock present near the surface.  The hard divisions of these lines should probably disappear, to bring them closer in line with reality.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 17, 2011, 07:04:15 pm
Obviously some fault lines are more "important" than others - a visible change in the geologic basement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basement_(geology)) inherently implies a point where the land itself has shifted over time, excepting intrusions that occur within a plate.

This doesn't make it the same thing as a subduction fault line, where a mountain range takes place, in any way, however.  This just means that those are the areas where you apply the pressures that cause minor local folding from the impacts of the plates.  Once again, the mountain ranges already are the result of massive-scale folding. 

Mountain ranges only occur in the two cases of being on the edge of a continental plate, or being a volcanic hotspot like Hawaii, where the same volcano keeps erupting in different locations as the plate that covers the hotspot shifts.

You don't need to do anything to model these massive subductions or folds (other than potentially make them more volcanically active than they otherwise would be), because the mountain ranges, once again, already are the result of large-scale folding.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Jeoshua on April 17, 2011, 07:51:43 pm
One thing I'd love to see in this vein is mountains that don't do this:

Code: [Select]

    /-\
   /---\
  /-----\
 /-------\
/---------\

But, instead, do this:

Code: [Select]
    /^\
   //^\\
  ///^\\\
 ////^\\\\
/////^\\\\\

I realize that's, basically, what we're talking about.  I just wanted to make a graph of it.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Uristocrat on April 19, 2011, 02:35:36 am
Ooh, ooh... My money would go to Tectonic plate activity.  Slice biomes down the middle and fold according to the shift.  Bonus donation if occasionally they slip and deconstruct everything in the area (that isn't quake-proof)

While disasters would be cool, I'm not sure if they fit into that release, exactly.

Simulating tectonics a bit more in terms of the resulting geology would be cool, though.  And I sure wouldn't mind getting chasms back, though all hell might break loose.  Literally.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Jeoshua on April 19, 2011, 12:58:09 pm
Chasms are nice, too.  Basically, what this would be is two plates that pull apart from each other, then partially collapse back in from the top.

Code: [Select]
-----||-----
     ||
    /  \
   |    |
   |    |

There would be very thin skin of a rock layer at the top, but underneath there is the gap.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there WERE chasms in the old 31.01 version weren't there? Meaning they were in the 3d version rather than just the 2d.  Because if they were in the 2d version, we already somewhat have those in the form of caves. If right means down in 2d, that means the chasm was merely a layer of emptiness.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 19, 2011, 05:48:34 pm
Chasms are nice, too.  Basically, what this would be is two plates that pull apart from each other, then partially collapse back in from the top.

Code: [Select]
-----||-----
     ||
    /  \
   |    |
   |    |

There would be very thin skin of a rock layer at the top, but underneath there is the gap.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there WERE chasms in the old 31.01 version weren't there? Meaning they were in the 3d version rather than just the 2d.  Because if they were in the 2d version, we already somewhat have those in the form of caves. If right means down in 2d, that means the chasm was merely a layer of emptiness.

There weren't in 31.01, but there were in 40d and earlier. 

In the old 2d version, they were a feature on every map (the second of four obstacles on the map).  Chasms were fairly easy to bridge, but monsters spawned from them (unless you filled them with magma).  In a sense, the three layers of caverns (and HFS) now replace the four old 2d game obstacles.  They even have enemies that grow progressively stronger the deeper down you dig, the way that the obstacles in 2d behaved, recreating the gamey feel of 2d. 

When you think about it like that, the caverns of .31 are a step back in the direction of being a game again, like it was in 2d.  Ever since the game started going 3d, everything being put into the game was making the game progressively more realistic; More of a "Fantasy World Simulator", and less of a game



Anyway, a chasm where the earth pulls apart can happen in the right places on the planet, such as Iceland, where the island really is on top of two plates pulling in opposite directions.  Thing is, though, those chasms aren't very deep - bottomless pits don't exist in real life, there's either a bottom, or you're just staring into outer space.  The holes get filled, and if the holes are deep enough, they get filled with magma that cools and forms new stone.  If they aren't that deep to begin with, they get filled with sediment that gets compacted into forming new sedimentary stone.  Either way, the hole gets filled until it's a fairly small hole.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Setharnas on April 19, 2011, 09:29:35 pm
While I would love to see a more realistic tectonic system myself, I really wonder - for my own reasons, too, actually - how it could be put into code that is anywhere close to efficient. The way I see it, the most likely way the world is created is through a (adapted) perlin noise application, pretty much the standard tool for the job and something I have recently started to study for my own use. Unfortunately, while that is well suited to getting pseudo-random, continuous subvolumes inside the main volume, I don't see (yet) how it could easily be adapted to shift those volumes around in order to simulate tectonic movements. I'd love a pointer to a solution to that particular problem.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Jeoshua on April 19, 2011, 09:47:05 pm
Simple enough.  Perlin noise first, write the data as a height map, THEN do tectonic deformation on it.  I've seen it done with map generators for other games and general game-creation software. 
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Setharnas on April 19, 2011, 10:03:35 pm
Hmm, yeah, sounds good. I have to admit, I was more thinking towards a higher dimensionality on the PN and failing to see how that could be made controllable and efficient enough... Of course a multi-step solution is the way to go. Thank you.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Jeoshua on April 19, 2011, 10:31:56 pm
... now that you mention it, higher dimensional perlin noise might be an interesting way to handle the ore deposits.  If done correctly, it would very adequately simulate the "bubbles of magma" that make up a planet, and slowly bubble to the surface.  Veins could be added by algorithm later, and after the tectonic deformations.

So yeah, not a bad idea.  The only reason that it's difficult to create a 3d stucture of ore veins, at this point, is that we're starting what is fundimentally many 2d maps governing one parameter apiece (height, temperature, vulcanism, etc).  If the map generation, instead, started as a 3d process and STAYED as a 3d process, the whole endeavor of a 3d volumetric map would be a much more manageable thing.

But how to give a Perlin Noise function some kind of "top" is the real question there.  It could easilly be made into a general density map, but it's fractal nature doesn't lend itself easilly to being cut off at the top, as a volumetric height map would necessitate.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: NW_Kohaku on April 19, 2011, 10:43:52 pm
I'm unfortunately not terribly familiar with Perlin Noise, so pardon me if I just sort of nod along on that part. 

As for how to handle these sorts of folds and intrusions, however, it wouldn't be terribly hard to put into the current game.

We already have a measure for the area's volcanism (which is basically created out of its own noise map), and we can then say that, for a given level of volcanism, there is a given chance of any one spot you randomly picked having a volcanic intrusion formation in the area, or else there is a certain density of intrusions.  Highly volcanic areas would be more likely to have a batholith overwriting the stone layers.

As for folding, you just need to put them along the edges of changes in the basement stone.  You just have to make some sort of way to associate certain types of stone and certain geologic pressures with specific kinds of folding, and put that kind of folding all along the interface of those two types of basement stone.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Uristocrat on April 20, 2011, 04:26:03 pm
I wonder how Toady is planning to do the 3D veins?  Ideally, they'd be worked into all this folding and such so that it would seem realistic, but I suppose that one could also simply do a 3D random walk through the appropriate layer and expand a little bit outwards from that.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Silverionmox on April 21, 2011, 01:25:58 pm
I wonder how Toady is planning to do the 3D veins?  Ideally, they'd be worked into all this folding and such so that it would seem realistic, but I suppose that one could also simply do a 3D random walk through the appropriate layer and expand a little bit outwards from that.
One of the constraints he has to work with is that they should be able to be generated from a random seed.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: Uristocrat on April 21, 2011, 04:01:00 pm
I wonder how Toady is planning to do the 3D veins?  Ideally, they'd be worked into all this folding and such so that it would seem realistic, but I suppose that one could also simply do a 3D random walk through the appropriate layer and expand a little bit outwards from that.
One of the constraints he has to work with is that they should be able to be generated from a random seed.

So long as it's a deterministic process, there's no need to worry.  He just has to save the RNG state and restore it properly during generation, like he already does for all the other "random" stuff.
Title: Re: Geologic Structures and the 3d Ore Veins (The Original Classic Rock)
Post by: tps12 on May 07, 2011, 02:53:27 pm
Simple enough.  Perlin noise first, write the data as a height map, THEN do tectonic deformation on it.  I've seen it done with map generators for other games and general game-creation software.

Link? I've tried looking for that kind of thing before (simulating plate tectonics), and this (http://sourceforge.net/projects/worldbuilder/) was the only thing I found (it actually is pretty neat, but sort of broken in some ways and with no source, despite being on SourceForge).