Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: SmileyMan on June 01, 2011, 05:44:04 am
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Having just started out on a big ol' lump of galena, I'd really appreciate being able to use the lead for something military. Obviously weapons and armour wouldn't be very practical, but it out to be possible to make lead bolts for crossbows?
I'm not after recreating bullets, just trying to fix a problem - lots of lead and nothing else!
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just make them drink out of lead flasks. done(also lead flasks, heh)
Also, you can just mod them in
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-a big ol' lump of galena,
-lots of lead and nothing else!
I'm pretty sure Galena is also a silver ore and silver makes for good blunt weapons and bolts.
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-a big ol' lump of galena,
-lots of lead and nothing else!
I'm pretty sure Galena is also a silver ore and silver makes for good blunt weapons and bolts.
When you smelt galena, you have a 20% chance of silver. You always get lead. Silver doesn't make good bolts because they're classed as edge weapons. It makes great maces and hammers.
Out of interest, how hard would it be to mod in lead bolts?
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-a big ol' lump of galena,
-lots of lead and nothing else!
I'm pretty sure Galena is also a silver ore and silver makes for good blunt weapons and bolts.
When you smelt galena, you have a 20% chance of silver. You always get lead. Silver doesn't make good bolts because they're classed as edge weapons. It makes great maces and hammers.
Out of interest, how hard would it be to mod in lead bolts?
Very easy. Just give lead the [ITEMS_AMMO] tag in inorganic_metal.
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Galena is 50% silver AFAIK...
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Galena is indeed 50% silver. Tetrahedrite is 20% silver.
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I think the edge weapon classification doesn't make much difference for projectiles; silver bolts always seemed among the better ones in my experience. :/
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Did a bit of testing in the arena. Lead bolts are more of a subdual weapon than silver - silver bolts still cause a lot of cutting damage wherea lead bots do a lot of bruising and bonechipping. In a fight between unarmoured dwarves, the leads beat the silvers very slightly, mainly due to collapsing due to pain and then being finished off very quickly.
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Silver is a good bolt material, due to a big mass smashing into the target. I dunno if lead bolts were used, I do know that the romans used lead-tipped javelins (pila). They were designed to damage shields, yet I think those could be responsible for casualties all by themselves against lighter armored enemies.
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I may be incorrect, so if you know more than I do, I apologise, but I was lead (unintentional pun?) to believe that one reason for using the lead was because the softer metal and the design of the javalin made throwing them back difficult, because after throwing the heads were broken or bent. Not to say lead wouldnt be useful as a weapon (since it was clearly also effective) but perhaps when weapon wear is implemented, the softer nature of lead projectiles would make them somewhat less reusable than other metals.
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Also correct. They stuck in the shields and bent there - and there was no time to remove them as a angry bunch of romans was usually following close behind. Quite good stuff.
I do not however think that retrieving and reusing the pila was a big problem for the organized romans, it just couldn't be done in the heat of the battle. Everything about a roman legion was planned carefully, so I'm sure there were ways to ensure a steady supply of javelins.
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Lead bolts probably wouldn't even go through bare skin. Worst they could do is bruise you.
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Lead will be useful if and when slings are implemented. Some slingers in the ancient times used lead bullets which might be more effective than just small stones. Some of them also used ceramic bullets IIRC
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Lead bolts probably wouldn't even go through bare skin. Worst they could do is bruise you.
and crack your bones.
....Great, now I have Eddie Izzard stuck in my head. ???
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Anyone knows how early musket velocity and bullet mass compares to the velocity and bolt mass of a good, (heavy) crossbow IRL?
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From what I know, lead is useless for projectiles. While it has weight, its other properties, shearing, elastic deformation and these other things the DF engine takes into account for creating physical trauma, make it terrible at actually cutting or penetrating a foe.
Even with absurdly modded weapons, lead ammo tends to just shove enemies back by sheer (weight*velocity) but never does anything besides bruise fat or maybe chip bone if you are lucky. Because lead is too soft, too bendy, doesn't hold a sharp edge and doesn't stay rigid, it cannot hurt anybody that badly. Its like the damage you can expect from throwing guts or sand at enemies in Advent mode.
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For the record, RL lead bullets were made because iron is relatively valuable while lead is often a byproduct. There's so much lead available that it can be thrown away by the crate-load! Full metal jackets are the equivalent of solid iron/steel ammo, except it has a lead core (hence the "jacket" of hard metal) because the core doesn't matter as much for bullets. The jacket allows it to more easily pierce through cars and wooden buildings and such, and then the deformed lead and steel bullet would hit someone and hurt them through sheer force of impact.
Which was what it comes down to. 1) Lead is plentiful, and 2) Bolts fly pretty fast. Lead bolts may not crack through bronze helmets and skulls, but they can hit the undefended arm or leg of a goblin, wound them, and make them flee. It's not a glorious battle tactic, but if you've got enough lead to build your fort twice over with the stuff, then you might as well fire the stuff. As mentioned before, you can make lead ammo with the appropriate token, and you can give it a bit more of copper's weapon stats, to make sure it's a bit more worthwhile than wooden bolts. Remember that even at default values, wooden bolts can get stuck into any unarmored body part, so a lead bolt is rather likely to inflict some damage to simple foes.
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Well, I've had lead bolts for a while now, with the default values from the raws, and i can report the following field experiences:
1) Squad of lead-shooting marksdwarves will consistenly beat their wood or silver counterparts in a totally unarmoured stand-off. Cumulative damage is the key here - the lead bolts rarely cut the skin, but it's bruise, chip, fracture every time. And a head-shot is an instakill. It's close though, in 10v10 there will be two or three survivors (usually badly injured) but always on the lead side.
2) In fortress mode, it's great ammo for hunters, because their prey has just bare skin. Because it causes more pain than the wooden or silver bolts, the chance of a retaliating prey getting a lucky strike are much much lower. If you've got lots of lead, make lead bolts and give it to the hunters.
3) Much like silver, it's pretty useless against metal armoured opponents. However, it could be very good for crowd control, since the non-cutting subdual action makes it like a modern rubber bullet. I haven't had the situation come up, but a guardsdwarf with lead bolts would take out a berserker with ease, and without spraying blood all over your nice clean dining room.
4) It's cool, because it's a significantly different type of weapon. Like hammer at a distance.
So not a replacement for iron, but if you're short on the good stuff, it's not completely useless.
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Man I just want to be able to boil lead and pour it on goblins.
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Can it be used for ballista ammunition? I suppose once the projectile reaches that kind of size and speed, material is fairly unimportant. I know siege engines are of less utility than marksdwarfes, but its another option for using up your lead and killing things.
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Can it be used for ballista ammunition? I suppose once the projectile reaches that kind of size and speed, material is fairly unimportant. I know siege engines are of less utility than marksdwarfes, but its another option for using up your lead and killing things.
Again, you just add a single tag and it'll work. Look in the raws for say, iron to see how it's done. My fort has goblins attacking with platinum scourges and gold maces, no matter how unrealistic that would be in real life.
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Lead bolts, in later versions, should be able to melt in the skin and blood of the target, causing a Syndrome (that should be) known as Lead Poisoning. Same thing should also be applied to lead or lay pewter flasks (since lay pewter is made with lead).
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It is infact possible to allow this when a bolt become Stuck In, though a bit cumbersome... with the syndrome rewrites recently maybe we'll be in luck.