Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Dwarf Mode Discussion => Topic started by: Gloster on June 11, 2011, 07:24:48 am
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I have noticed this is actually mentioned in the wiki article on ogres, using steel weapons as an example, but I have done some voluntary and involuntary IRG testing on this, with the following result:
Clothed ogres are disproportionately invulnerable.
I have a legendary squad with mixed masterful weapons - adamantine axes, swords and spears and silver hammers. Virtually every encounter with an ogre follows this pattern - body and limb hits by edged weapons glance away or at best lightly bruise the skin and fat; then the ogres hands get chopped off, then he gives in to pain, falls over and is promptly and fatally hacked/stabbed/smashed in the head through whatever metal mask he's wearing. (There is some variation, of course, but I don't think I've ever seen an ogre get killed by anything besides a headshot.)
It's not much of a practical problem since my squads manage to fight their way through the bash-fall-headstab cycle quite quickly, but it is annoying. I mean, if a masterful adamantine spear wielded by a legendary super-strong dwarf is not able to penetrate a large giant mole tunic, then what is? And conversely, if his normal leather clothing is able to hold back common hand-held weapons, why is his metal mask such a weakpoint?
My annoyance with this reached new levels when a bronze colossus payed a visit to my fort. Having only read about them so far, I though - wow, this is it. The ultimate test of my military. I expected weeks of slow hacking, chipping his bronze skin bit by bit to wear him down.
NOT. He was down within two pages of combat reports, nearly every hit, blunt and edged, chipping or even outright braking a limb or a body part. The poor sucker didn't have a prayer. But if this is the effect of adamantine weapons on bronze, what makes large elk bird leather pants bulletproof?
Am I the only one bothered by this? Or the only one with this experience?
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The amount of protection clothes provide is still kind of buggy.
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It may be your BC was a little random luck as that seems awfuly fast kill. It generally takes forever regardless of skills/weapons if actually fighting one rather than some devious trick.
I'd guess that ogres being big their bodymass helps protect them somewhat, a thick limb should be harder to remove than a thinner one. We see great examples of this in big organic FBs where axes wont remove limbs and spears are desirable for organ hits.
Whats weird though is that you were using candy. candy axe lords should be able to delimb just about everything in the game. Ogres really shouldnt be in the small class of exceptions.
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The ogre was probably pretty quick and all that happened was he got him by a number of glancing blows, they won't do anything if you are clothed and MAYBE cut the skin if he isn't so it's no big deal. Besides with the new targeting system hands are almost always the first to go.
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Besides with the new targeting system hands are almost always the first to go.
Star Wars Fortress?
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Besides with the new targeting system hands are almost always the first to go.
Star Wars Fortress?
too bad we don't have replacement arms yet.... then it really would be. I mean people can already survive being dipped in lava.
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Im feeling this. I want a 'crutch' style thing for the arm with mechanisms, leather and metal. Bionic Dwarfs are go
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The ogre was probably pretty quick and all that happened was he got him by a number of glancing blows, they won't do anything if you are clothed and MAYBE cut the skin if he isn't so it's no big deal. Besides with the new targeting system hands are almost always the first to go.
I get something like 15 ogres with every siege and I've been playing this particular fort for some 12 years now so there is a quite substantial sample to go by. It happens every time as far as I've seen. Adamantine just won't cut through their clothing and any injury the blows cause results from a blunt trauma.
As far as the BC goes, I've only had a single encounter and so can't rule out a lucky fluke. But I was closely watching the progress of the fight and the dorfs seemed to be doing really well, immobilizing him and getting pretty much every body part in the red before the final blow. I mean, it certainly wasn't a single lucky vital organ hit in an otherwise fruitless slugfest.
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The amount of protection clothes provide is still kind of buggy.
I have tried to address that in the Genesis mod. Especially Robe and Cloak were great blunt defense due to large surface area "spreading out the force".
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Clothed ogres having cotton candy weapons glance away?
I had a novice swordsdwarf take one down with a copper short sword who had clothes on.
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Size is the issue in Dwarf Fortress. As Tomi said, an ogre is very large, and when it wears clothes, the game makes them where extremely large clothes. As such, you're striking "the entire garment" with every hit. It's the same reason an axe will only bruise the fat of a massive creature, even though a sharp-edged axe should be able to cut open the skin, at least, you're only bruising fat because size is the utmost factor in all things DF.
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The issues you're experiencing might be because of the mod, if the material values of the ogres were changed, or if they have high natural armor using skill, or if, as TomiTapio says, clothing in Genesis is much better that blocking than in vanilla.