Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: UristMcHuman on June 26, 2011, 10:08:49 pm

Title: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: UristMcHuman on June 26, 2011, 10:08:49 pm
I've seen a thread for missing pre-1400s technology, which has included the use of gunpowder. I've been thinking, why not suggest different types of guns and explosives to use? :D Mechanisms, the guns and artillery need to have appropriate workshops: the Gunsmith's shop and the Foundry. Mechanisms and artillery (cannons, mortars, grenades, mortar bombs, cannonballs and the mighty bombard) will be cast out of bronze, iron or steel at the foundry, depending on the mechanism and artillery piece. Guns (obviously) need to be made at a gunsmith's shop. Dwarves are able to make and use: Hand-Cannon, Matchlock Pistol, Flintlock Pistol, and Blunderbuss. Humans can use Dwarven guns, in addition to: Matchlock Musket, Flintlock Musket, Flintlock Rifle, and Arquebus. Matchlock guns are thought to have wider-spaced muzzle and are more useful for hunting. The blunderbuss, on the other hand, has a regular muzzle and can be used for either hunting or combat. Ammo can be either paper cartridges with a lead bullet, a charge of powder (hand firearm sized) and paper for wadding (recommended for gun-using dwarves), or individual bits and bobs for a true hunter: a bag for bullets, another bag for scrap cloth (byproduct of making clothes, used for wadding) and a cow or yak horn with powder in it. Shot cartridges are basically paper cartridges with shot, an ammo type that spreads, instead of a single bullet.

Guns and ammo (Dwarven use only) are listed, along with uses: Matchlock pistol (shot cartridge, hunting, militia use), Flintlock pistol (paper cartridge, hunting, combat, militia use), Blunderbuss (paper cartridge, combat), and Hand-Cannon (small cannonball, hand-cannon powder charge, combat). It should be worth noting that I did not recommend the blunderbuss or hand-cannon to be used for hunting, because A. They are military-grade guns, B. The hand-cannon was extremely inaccurate, and C. The significantly louder noise of a hand-cannon would (and should) awaken--and maybe even startle-- everything on the map.

Artillery can be considered siege engines, but are made entirely out of metal, and need to be cast. This is why I suggest a Foundry to Cast {metal name} Cannon, Cast {metal name} Mortar, Cast {metal name} (hand) Cannonballs, and Make Grenades. I will expand this post using a different one later.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Belteshazzar on June 27, 2011, 02:37:57 am
If explosives were to go in at all (I wouldn't count in it outside of mods) it seems a more 'goblin' thing. Dwarves probably being too traditional to settle for anything short of the 'Most Righteous Cleansing Fires of Molten Magma'.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: nanomage on June 27, 2011, 03:21:55 am
Man-portable firearms are moddable even now, although their stats and rate of fire will not make much sense before the game can handle armour-piercing and reloading more accurately.
Gunpowder-based artillery will be possible via modding after the siege engine and moving parts overhaul, which i believe is planned.
What is really interesting and impossible to mod right now i believe is explosions. From this suggestion the ability to set mines, throw bombs which really explode, set fires and blow up entire mountains and fortresses is what i like the most. This may make more sense setting-wise, too: advanced firearms maybe a little anachronous for 1400, but gunpowder itself is definitely not.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Draco18s on June 27, 2011, 10:09:56 am
"I have an idea!  Let me suggest something that's been suggested and shot down so many times that it's bound to be a good idea!  Hell, there's even a discussion going on right now about it!"

How about "no"?  There's a reason the thread is called Missing Pre-1400s Technology.  As in things that existed BEFORE the 1400s.  And while the 1400s aren't an absolute cutoff (nor an indication that things that existed before it will absolutely be considered for adding into the game) it's a rough guideline for people like you and I on whether or not it'd be a good idea to suggest it.

Guns are most definitely a post 1400s invention.  The earliest handheld firearm we have ever found dates to 1396 (not counting anything found in China, which is out due to the fact that we're talking about technology in the Western world) and there are no references to any such things earlier than 1382.  Devices of this sort at this time were crude and amounted to little more than a man-portable cannon.

Quote from bloody ages ago:

Regarding gunpowder and some basic associated technologies, I can see myself playing either way, really, since I'm not that picky.  If I had to choose between having gunpowder on or off in a release distribution init file, it would be off, because Arnold got shot in Commando not Conan, and the Argonauts didn't get shot by handguns or cannons, and Medusa had a bow not a gun, and stuff.  We grew up with that crap, and our core DF, our myth/fantasy game, mainly hovers around that sort of fluffy nostalgia, but it doesn't need to impact you more than a one line file change.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: BunnyBob77 on June 27, 2011, 10:28:26 am
agreed with draco.  my personal opinion is that I wouldn't want  guns in the game, as this a fantasy game, not a steampunk game, but I wouldn't mind explosives if they were done properly, because it would be tons of fun to blow a goblin with a simple landmine, or as an adventurer throw a barrel of gunpowder, then a torch.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: UristMcHuman on June 27, 2011, 01:16:46 pm
Or, better yet, if a bunch of drunks and peasants got into a bar fight and pulled out carving knives, I would say, "Nice, guys, but I think you brought a knife," and I pull out a matchlock pistol. "to a gunfight." Reference to 'Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull'. And, landmines seem more like an early 1900s invention, but having dwarves fling grenades and shoot cannons at goblins to scare them off would be entertaining. And these are guns before even the Colt .45 was invented. Guns are not intended to be a steampunk thing, as they're all old-fashioned matchlock and flintlock guns. No, steampunk would be AK-47 assault rifles and Desert Eagle handguns, as well as miniguns.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: UristMcHuman on July 02, 2011, 10:21:26 am
Man-portable firearms are moddable even now, although their stats and rate of fire will not make much sense before the game can handle armour-piercing and reloading more accurately.
Gunpowder-based artillery will be possible via modding after the siege engine and moving parts overhaul, which i believe is planned.
What is really interesting and impossible to mod right now i believe is explosions. From this suggestion the ability to set mines, throw bombs which really explode, set fires and blow up entire mountains and fortresses is what i like the most. This may make more sense setting-wise, too: advanced firearms maybe a little anachronous for 1400, but gunpowder itself is definitely not.

About explosions, grenades (as in little 3 inch wide iron spheres filled with gunpowder) could be used to clear out more dirt and rock at one time than a proficient miner. Plus, clusters of about 4 or 5 could also be used to weaken the strength of a siege, should catapults be able to fire over walls in an arc.

About Artillery:

Cannons are basically gunpowder-powered ballistae that can fling a deadly iron cannonball over 300 tiles, and should have the potential of the projectile to go through and kill about 15 human-sized targets. A well-placed shot from a single cannon could also possibly kill a bronze colossus or even a dragon.

A mortar is just a shorter, thicker-barreled cannon that can fire projectiles around 30-100 tiles, with the projectile sending a 5x5 explosion that flings smoke in a 15x15 diameter.

And, the mighty Bombard. A HUGE cannon that requires a massive Bombard Cannonball to load and needs 5 powder charges to fire. This sucker can completely shatter doors to toothpicks and bars and grates to shrapnel, and go through a 3-tile-thick castle wall. Only humans can use this great cannon.

About firearms:

Hand-cannons are cannons that can be held in the hand (aha!), but also need a wood log to create, presumably as the handle. They are very loud, extremely inaccurate, and will kill 9 out of 10 enemies, and the 10th one should bleed out within a game day. This gun is often used by goblins and not-so-advanced human civilizations.

A matchlock pistol is a short-barreled, splayed-muzzle firearm suited for hunting, but can also be used for militia use if the walls are breached. They are relatively inaccurate, and are often carried by goblin skirmishers.

An arquebus is functionally identical to a flintlock musket, except that they have somewhat shorter barrels and can only be made from bronze. They are average in accuracy, and are often the weapon of choice for human musketeers.

Matchlock muskets are functionally identical to a matchlock pistol, except that the barrel is longer and it is more accurate, but not by much. These are often carried by human skirmishers.

Flintlock muskets are the main weapon with advanced human civs. They are fairly inaccurate, because the bullet tended to bounce around a little in the barrel after firing, which caused the bullet to veer off in a random direction. If a bayonet is attached, using the weapon's stab attack (only avaliable if the bayonet is attached) will train up the spearman skill in adventurer mode.

A flintlock rifle is extremely accurate. In adventure mode, a shot from this will mostly strike you in the upper body, which will lead to a busted lung, or the head, which will lead to death. In fort mode, a squad or two of riflemen will accompany a human siege if the invading civilization is advanced enough.

And, last but not least, the humble blunderbuss. A good choice of weaponry for your dwarfs in fort mode. They are about as accurate as a flintlock musket. These can sometimes be found off of dead goblins, too. They are a decent firearm in adventure mode, being lighter than other guns, but heavier than a pistol.

Attributes:

Sharpshooter: Determines how well one fires a firearm.

Skills:

Gunman: Allows one to use pistols more effectively.
Musketeer: Allows one to use muskets and arquebuses more effectively.
Rifleman: Allows one to use rifles more effectively.

EDIT: Oh, crap, I forgot about flintlock pistols!
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: sockless on July 02, 2011, 07:31:16 pm
Eventually DF will get to a stage where we can mod in our own gunpowder weapons. But it's not really going to happen before then. Making more threads about it doesn't make it any more likely to happen.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: tolkafox on July 02, 2011, 11:16:07 pm
But then your copper dagger wielding adventurer would get shot by some random thug who liked his dagger at the beginning of the game. We already have random lion mauling while you're on your way to complete a quest, we don't need to give them guns.

Besides, I haven't seen anyone say exactly how this is supposed to be implemented. Should we just skip making a crossbow at the beginning of the game and go straight for the hand cannon, and blow every goblin up with one well armed dwarf? Will your dwarves be massacred because your swords and shields couldn't stand up to the goblin guns? Or should we just go ahead and implement skill trees for each fortress where you have to research different technologies for your dwarves to use?

Last I checked, we already had a fallout mod that has guns in it.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on July 03, 2011, 08:33:26 am
why cant people just make there own guns instead of make three threads a day about firearms almost every noob thinks its a great suggestion then posts it it gets annoying
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: dwarfhoplite on July 03, 2011, 08:47:13 am
there is only 2 types of bows, why to make 10 guns?

Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on July 03, 2011, 12:53:21 pm
because they play black ops to much
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: IT 000 on July 03, 2011, 02:07:36 pm
why cant people just make there own guns instead of make three threads a day about firearms almost every noob thinks its a great suggestion then posts it it gets annoying

Guns in the game are no better then bows on steroids. There are many tags that could be added such as fire rate, burst count, and range of the weapon. In vanilla every ranged weapon has the same range and speed of reload is based on skill. Burst count is maxed out to one shot at a time.

-----

While I would like to see Toady throw in a few new tags we can use for guns. I wouldn't want to see guns in vanilla. Nor do I believe that it would be wildly accepted once added. Many many versions ago charging an ambush full of crossbow goblins was like ramming a truck into a concrete wall at a hundred miles an hour. You wouldn't drive away from that one. Likewise, they had the ability to turn *<<*dwarves*>>* into xxdwarvesxx in a matter of seconds.

Many people complained about ranged weapons being to powerful and Toady eventually changed it.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Morrigi on July 05, 2011, 09:30:56 pm
"I have an idea!  Let me suggest something that's been suggested and shot down so many times that it's bound to be a good idea!  Hell, there's even a discussion going on right now about it!"

How about "no"?  There's a reason the thread is called Missing Pre-1400s Technology.  As in things that existed BEFORE the 1400s.  And while the 1400s aren't an absolute cutoff (nor an indication that things that existed before it will absolutely be considered for adding into the game) it's a rough guideline for people like you and I on whether or not it'd be a good idea to suggest it.

Guns are most definitely a post 1400s invention.  The earliest handheld firearm we have ever found dates to 1396 (not counting anything found in China, which is out due to the fact that we're talking about technology in the Western world) and there are no references to any such things earlier than 1382.  Devices of this sort at this time were crude and amounted to little more than a man-portable cannon.

Not true. The first firearm IN EUROPE dates to 1396. Europe =! World. The Chinese and Arabs had them about a hundred years before that, which definitely makes them eligible. And how are man-portable cannons not dwarven? Seriously!
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Draco18s on July 06, 2011, 09:17:37 am
(not counting anything found in China, which is out due to the fact that we're talking about technology in the Western world)

Not true. The first firearm IN EUROPE dates to 1396. Europe =! World. The Chinese and Arabs had them about a hundred years before that, which definitely makes them eligible. And how are man-portable cannons not dwarven? Seriously!

Emphasized the important phrase.  Largely speaking, DF is a western fantasy game.

Failing that, Toady has said "No guns."  So move on.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Catastrophic lolcats on July 06, 2011, 09:44:12 am
I could see Goblins using really really archaic handcannons. The type that had about a 60% chance to blow up and take out the gunner. After all, life is cheap in goblin society.

It does seem a bit Tolken however. The Hobbit had goblins (later renamed orcs) which love gunpowered. Using it to kill prsioners or if I remember right a form of funeral for high ranking gobbos.

The idea of goblin petards/sappers is interesting though and having a whole bunch of young naive gobs charging to your walls and attempting to blow up the walls only to be "holsted upon their own petard" hee hee.

Blast mining could be considered. Though it comes down to what kind of Dwarves are Toady's Dwarves.
Are they the kind that embrace technology and enjoy having things done for them by simple machines. Or are they the traditional kind that have to do everything by hand.
Guess this is where the culture generation comes into play.

Still simple firearms such as carbine, rifles and pistol don't really have a place in the game as I see it.
They really changed the battlefield and even more they're just not fun.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Vattic on July 06, 2011, 02:32:41 pm
It does seem a bit Tolken however. The Hobbit had goblins (later renamed orcs) which love gunpowered. Using it to kill prsioners or if I remember right a form of funeral for high ranking gobbos.
I don't recognise that but then it's been a while since I read any Tolkien. They did use something like gunpowder against the walls of Helm's Deep. I'd imagine something like this would fit nicely in sieges and perhaps part of alchemy or magic.

Edit: The main problem with firearms is that, as people have said, they completely change the way battlefields work.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: stabbymcstabstab on July 06, 2011, 03:50:30 pm
the mines at helm deep were more magic then gunpowder and weren't the powerful there was tons of them need to blow up a drain hole and the wall around it
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Vattic on July 07, 2011, 03:16:56 am
stabbymcstabstab I was confused by your comment so I went and reread the Helms deep chapter of the Two Towers. Unless I have missed it there is no detailed mention of what caused the explosion and the blast comes as a surprise to those inside. Aragorn shouts out "Devilry of Saruman!" and little else. I also went and checked the film to see if you meant that and as this clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BJXa1atVTM&feature=player_detailpage#t=288s) shows it's one large object they place in the culvert. So I'm not sure why you think "tons of them" were required.

As for it being more magic than gunpowder I'd have to agree given the themes in the book and that Saruman was the source of whatever they used. This is why I suggested something similar might be appropriate as a form of alchemy or magic. I would say that it acted much like something including gunpowder and I brought it up because DF was, according to Toady, originally a Moria simulator and so some kind of explosives would fit with the style he is trying to establish. I'd imagine his magic system will have some kind of explosions in some shape or form.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: FallingWhale on July 07, 2011, 04:56:52 pm
There is a reason guns weren't in wide use in Europe at the time; they sucked.

Forget rate of fire: it took more than a minute to prime, load, light, and aim the thing.
Forget armor piercing: an archer or crossbowman could make a kill through more than an eighth inch of steel, a gun could maybe do that to copper.
Forget accuracy: the barrels weren't rifled, add to that that the gunner held a very heavy gun in one hand as he put a match to touch hole.
Forget useful: any rain and you're done, every part of the gun is useless damp.

The matchlock was invented 75 years late.

Explosives are fine though. We've been blowing each other up for as long as we've had oil.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: 612DwarfAvenue on July 07, 2011, 09:04:47 pm
The Hobbit had goblins (later renamed orcs)

It's my understanding that Goblins and Orcs are seperate?
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Vattic on July 07, 2011, 10:19:59 pm
It's my understanding that Goblins and Orcs are seperate?
Not to completely turn this into a discussion of Tolkien's works but they are the same thing. In his early works they are used synonymously and in the Hobbit he explains:
Quote
Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbit's form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.
During and after LotR he stops using the word goblin at least for the most part.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: 612DwarfAvenue on July 08, 2011, 12:36:20 am
It's my understanding that Goblins and Orcs are seperate?
Not to completely turn this into a discussion of Tolkien's works but they are the same thing. In his early works they are used synonymously and in the Hobbit he explains:
Quote
Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds). Orc is the hobbit's form of the name given at that time to these creatures, and it is not connected at all with our orc, ork, applied to sea-animals of dolphin-kind.
During and after LotR he stops using the word goblin at least for the most part.

Hrm, guess i'm confused since LoTR: Battle for Middle Earth (the second one at least) has Orcs and Goblins as seperate factions to play as.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Draco18s on July 08, 2011, 08:37:28 am
Hrm, guess i'm confused since LoTR: Battle for Middle Earth (the second one at least) has Orcs and Goblins as seperate factions to play as.

Because as we all know:
1) It's faithful to the book
2) Tolkien himself oversaw its creation
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Rowanas on July 08, 2011, 11:04:25 am
Tolkien, or TK117, as some may know him, was an avid gamer.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: FallingWhale on July 08, 2011, 12:14:18 pm
Quote from: wikipedia
Tolkien sometimes, particularly in The Hobbit, used the word "goblin" instead of "orc" to describe the same type of creature, with the smaller cave-dwelling variety that lived in the Misty Mountains being referred to as "goblins" and the larger ones elsewhere referred to as "orcs".[2] Later in his life he expressed an intention to change the spelling of "orc" to "ork" in The Silmarillion[3] but the only place where that spelling surfaced in his lifetime was in the published version of The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, in the poem Bombadil Goes Boating ("I'll call the orks on you: that'll send you running!"). In the posthumously published Silmarillion, the spelling "orcs" was retained.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: UristMcHuman on July 10, 2011, 04:33:19 pm
Forget useful: any rain and you're done, every part of the gun is useless damp.

Exactly. I intended to say that the powder charges and paper cartridges, when rained on, would be as useless as wood bolts against adamantine armour. The charge in the gun or artillery piece would be unharmed though.

Same thing if a dwarf (that could swim) dodged into water. His cartridges and the powder in the gun would be useless.

Should dwarfs care about fire in later versions and their bag or horn of powder caught fire, it would explode destroying the relevant item, ALL powder in it, and will badly burn the dwarf. If they were cartridges, then the bullets in them would fly in random directions, hitting anything in their path.

Or should we just go ahead and implement skill trees for each fortress where you have to research different technologies for your dwarves to use?

I like that idea.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Draco18s on July 10, 2011, 06:05:28 pm
Or should we just go ahead and implement skill trees for each fortress where you have to research different technologies for your dwarves to use?

I like that idea.

Dispite Toady explicitly saying he'll never go that route?
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: theothersteve7 on July 12, 2011, 02:55:33 pm
I think explosives seem quite Dwarven.  I think covering a mountainside with TNT bristles with Dwarf Fortressness.  Firearms, not quite as much; also they'd feel more shoehorned in given the setting.

Definitely worth putting in once alchemy is a thing, in my opinion.  Main issue I see is that it's very nontrivial to implement.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: mister Zalli on February 15, 2012, 07:20:51 pm
I'd like to see some gunpowder barrels but not firearms. Barrels could be handy mining "tool" and a fun way to kill your opponents or to have some "dwarwen fun".
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: NobodyPro on February 15, 2012, 07:35:05 pm
I always thought that the game would go to a sort of "Urist McDorf has caught a fey mood... Urist McDorf has invented the (Plate armor or something)" so that the game could start in an age with only leather armour, then go to mail -> plate armor as it spreads across the world. Rather than a tech research/skill tree gamist type solution.

"In the midwinter of 534, Urist McDorf discovered gunpowder."
"In 535, Urist McDorf was killed in a work related incident."
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: 612DwarfAvenue on February 15, 2012, 07:49:02 pm
"dwarwen"

Is that like a dwarven Arwen, from LOTR??

Spoiler: Hey, you asked for it (click to show/hide)


Back on topic, explosives would be nice, but i'm not sure actual guns would fit the game's setting.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Jake on February 15, 2012, 09:44:18 pm
Eventually DF will get to a stage where we can mod in our own gunpowder weapons.

Whadda ya mean, "eventually"? (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=85060.0)
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: acetech09 on February 16, 2012, 12:41:53 am
Although guns are generally not a good idea, kegs of primitive gunpowder with a cloth fuse would be something that I'd consider.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Maklak on February 16, 2012, 05:26:56 am
I'm against guns in vanilla, but better support for modding them would be good. Fallout mod had serious problem with plasma guns and other energy weapons.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Montague on February 16, 2012, 05:42:30 am
I've still never figured out a method of modding a realistic firearm in the game.

The ones I've attempted never do anything worse then chip a bone here and there and it usually takes about a 100 shots to kill a human peasant wearing a cloth fiber robe.

Also, black powder was invented around 1400 in Europe and it only real applications were in early firearms. The black powder produced then was not powerful or fast-burning enough for explosive charges or anything. Those came about 200 years later.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Murphy on February 16, 2012, 06:29:20 am
I'd be fine with firearms and explosives if they only started appearing in an actual "late-game", i.e. at 1500+ years into world history.
May even call it the Age of Gunpowder or something.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Aquillion on February 17, 2012, 03:49:34 am
Cannons were extensively used long before 1500, according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon#Medieval_Europe).
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: LordBaal on May 22, 2012, 04:18:24 pm
(http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/707/thunderers.png)

I think that's darwen enough. Especially after fitting a blade under the cannons! Too bad Toady do not like this.

About the dates, really? Are your really worried about the "correct" date of invent of guns in a game where we have bronze colossus and demons roaming around?
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Silverionmox on May 22, 2012, 04:59:44 pm
If you want to make it sensible to invest in armor and skills, guns are out.  If you want villains whose legions of evil could conceivably be kept at bay for a moment by a small band of heroes, guns are out. If you want heroism, guns are out.

Fireworks, at most. Even reliable "fireball" spells (actually, "grenade" spells) can't be allowed to be a common occurrence.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Draco18s on May 22, 2012, 09:56:44 pm
If you want to make it sensible to invest in armor and skills, guns are out.  If you want villains whose legions of evil could conceivably be kept at bay for a moment by a small band of heroes, guns are out. If you want heroism, guns are out.

This.

While you can have heroism and all that with guns, it's less....believable.

Compare The 300 with Star Wars' Imperial Storm Troopers.  The former hold off an entire army of Persians and are legendary because of it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/ThreeHundred).  Luke and Leia hold off an army and rather than being "heroic" the army ends up looking like a bunch of jokers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImperialStormtrooperMarksmanshipAcademy).

Do ctrl-F on that first link.  Look for "redshirt" or "red shirt."  You won't find it.  The Persian army is the "redshirt army" because the Spartans are the Badass Army, and a Badass Army is often paired up against a Redshirt Army to show off just how badass they really are, but the Persian army is not an example of that trope.  The Imperial Stormtroopers, however, are a redshirt army to a T.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Mrhappyface on May 22, 2012, 10:09:06 pm
I want my dwarves to have some firebombs. OMGWTFBBQ indeed, goblins.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Sus on May 23, 2012, 02:25:25 am
I want my dwarves to have some firebombs. OMGWTFBBQ indeed, goblins.
Modding. All the cool kids are doing it.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: LordBaal on May 23, 2012, 07:03:44 am
It has nothing to do with heroism or armor... guns didn't kill armor until it was really very well crafted. Guns didn't become the ultimate weapon forever once they were employed, swords, battle axes and knifes where around up until world war two you know... and even today are employed although only in rare occasions.

The 300 example... I don't know what has to do with anything, ok there where no guns back then, but that's not the ultimate example of badassery and heroism in history (also they weren't only 300 in real life, you are thinking about the movie). I will just say, remember the Alamo... and that's but one example of the MANY that combines guns, heroism, last stands and lo and behold... a fortress!
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Draco18s on May 23, 2012, 08:52:17 am
(also they weren't only 300 in real life, you are thinking about the movie)

Duh?
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: LordBaal on May 23, 2012, 10:21:34 am
I don't follow... you mention 300 vs Starwars and quoting TVtrophes... and I got lost there... really... anyway in real life, those 300 weren't only 300. Yes, there was 300 Spartans, but also 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans, accounts goes from 1000 to 4000 Greeks.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: Draco18s on May 23, 2012, 10:30:40 am
I don't follow... you mention 300 vs Starwars and quoting TVtrophes... and I got lost there... really... anyway in real life, those 300 weren't only 300. Yes, there was 300 Spartans, but also 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans, accounts goes from 1000 to 4000 Greeks.

300, as in the movie.  Link to TV Trope article for the movie.

Star Wars, as in the movie.  Link to a trope making fun of the storm troopers from the movie.

Comparison:

The Persians in the movie don't come off as redshirts because the heroes (the 300) are beating the crap out of them.  Instead, the heroes come off as being so freaking badass it's insane because the Persians are competent.

The storm troopers though look like fools because they can't hit anything with their rifles.  Makes the heroes come up as kinda "meh."  The plot armor is obvious and unsubtle.

Point is "if you want villains whose legions of evil could conceivably be kept at bay for a moment by a small band of heroes, guns are out" isn't entirely true because Star Wars did it.  It just wasn't a legion of evil, it was a legion of blind idiots.
Title: Re: Usage of early firearms and explosives in later versions
Post by: LordBaal on May 23, 2012, 10:44:17 am
Ok, ok... now I get your point. If we are about movies did you see pirates of the Caribbean or Master and Commander? Plenty of weapons, even more sword fights! Guns wouldn't be that different from say, crossbows, just another kind of weapon to have fun with. They will need a different industry but in the end they would be like slower to reload, more powerful crossbows that may have the side effect of scares enemies.

Well crafted dwarf weapons should be something I'm sure humans would pay a lot for. And I can see some goblins civs using crude versions of hand cannons.

I wouldn't ask for it to be included on vanilla. But being able to change the reload speed of the weapons and the penetration of projectiles will be enough to make them properly to a mod as far as I know, but I could wrong since I'm new at modding DF.

Hey look! I'm a Bay Watcher! last night I was a escaped lunatic