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Dwarf Fortress => DF Gameplay Questions => Topic started by: Fischer541 on July 09, 2011, 11:26:46 am

Title: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Fischer541 on July 09, 2011, 11:26:46 am
So been thinking of making a Tundra/Glacier Fortress right now, but I'm a little taken aback by the fact of little to no trees. As well with perma-frozen water. So are there any hints and tricks to kinda of making the first Tundra fortress?
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: squeakyReaper on July 09, 2011, 11:30:02 am
Hit the ground fast.  The longer you stay above ground, the more likely your dorfs and animals will freeze to death.  Magma, when you reach it, can melt ice into water (always 7/7 when it melts) and warms the area.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Fischer541 on July 09, 2011, 11:37:16 am
At what level is magma/lava usually found? (When not embarking near a volcano.)
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: slay_mithos on July 09, 2011, 12:30:49 pm
as for what I've seen, the first magma floor can be anywhere from 30 to 150.

It all depends on the "volcanism" of the embark zone, thing you can't know without cheating of trying to dig down as far as you can early.

I might be wrong, because it is only from experience.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Conan on July 09, 2011, 01:32:03 pm
Also, bring about 10-20 pieces of wood for beds and moods.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Lexx on July 09, 2011, 03:42:06 pm
No need for any wood. Just dig down to the caves. Bring 1 military dwarf to deal with whats down there ( I recommend dodge, fighter and a weapon skill 3 advances each. ). Colonize in the first cavern and work from there. Its a fun challenge.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: IT 000 on July 09, 2011, 03:47:29 pm
Quote
Hit the ground fast.  The longer you stay above ground, the more likely your dorfs and animals will freeze to death

They don't freeze to death, but yes, hit the ground fast, there's no point in staying above ground.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: squeakyReaper on July 09, 2011, 04:47:33 pm
Dwarves will.  If...  they're naked.  And sleeping.  Eventually they'll go numb anyways.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Fischer541 on July 09, 2011, 04:56:02 pm
I see Elk and Reindeer are natural creatures in the Tundra/Glacier etc. Will those creature have a higher resistance to the cold?
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Stormcloudy on July 09, 2011, 05:14:29 pm
If you bring them they will starve without cavern grass. Nobody's going to freeze to death, unless they literally get themselves frozen in a block of ice, which is a different problem.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: IT 000 on July 09, 2011, 05:23:23 pm
Quote from: squeakyReaper on July 09, 2011, 04:47:33 pm
Dwarves will.  If...  they're naked.  And sleeping.  Eventually they'll go numb anyways.

No they don't, if your dwarves are going numb I suspect it is due to a Forgotten Beast syndrome.

Quote from: Fischer541 on July 09, 2011, 04:56:02 pm
I see Elk and Reindeer are natural creatures in the Tundra/Glacier etc. Will those creature have a higher resistance to the cold?

Higher resistance to cold means nothing, a cat can survive just as well as a polar bear can. Likewise a polar bear can survive in scorching temperature.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Moonshadow101 on July 09, 2011, 07:32:38 pm
As stated, don't worry about the temperature in a "my creatures will freeze!" sense. That sort of thing isn't modeled in the game.

As you can imagine, the caverns take on a particular importance. If you're embarking on a pure glacier without any forest tiles or anything, you'll have absolutely no trees or soil on the surface, so your farming and woodcutting will both have to take place in caverns. If you don't already do so, consider embarking with a military Dwarf and some basic copper gear: trolls and giant toads can be a serious problem otherwise.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Fischer541 on July 09, 2011, 09:07:52 pm
Aye... I kind of forgot about the military dwarf to protect me from the caverns but I haven't gotten that deep as of yet... Right now I've had four dwarves die of thirst, but right now I have three farmers going at it to bring in plump helmets etc, and various other plants. So my alcohol stores are kind of stable right now. Food isn't that bad because I brought along nine turkies or so. Problem is I forgot how to get the males to fertilize eggs.


Scratch the turkey reproduction - Just received 30 poults, I almost shit myself.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Khym Chanur on July 10, 2011, 01:18:05 am
Make sure to make large pots out of stone instead of barrels out of wood, to keep down the amount of logs you use.  Also, when you get an anvil you can make bins out of metal, further saving on wood usage.

Quote from: Moonshadow101 on July 09, 2011, 07:32:38 pm
As stated, don't worry about the temperature in a "my creatures will freeze!" sense. That sort of thing isn't modeled in the game.

I've been told that creatures and dwarves can be frozen by the environment, it's just that glaciers in a world created with ordinary world-gen parameters won't be cold enough.

Quote
If you don't already do so, consider embarking with a military Dwarf and some basic copper gear: trolls and giant toads can be a serious problem otherwise.

You can tap into the underground pools without having to breach the caverns, and then use that for irrigation for both farms and growing trees.  You just have to bring along enough logs to last a few years.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: jhxmt on July 10, 2011, 02:57:37 am
Quote from: Khym Chanur on July 10, 2011, 01:18:05 am
I've been told that creatures and dwarves can be frozen by the environment, it's just that glaciers in a world created with ordinary world-gen parameters won't be cold enough.

This.  I've just genned up a quick pocket world with advanced parameters, setting the temperature range between -500 to -100, and embarked.

Upon arrival, I made a new military uniform containing nothing, set to replace clothing, entitled simply, "Naked".  I then assigned all my starting seven to a squad, gave them that uniform, and then chuckled malevolently as they went and stood in the middle of this icy wasteland clad only in the beards Armok gave them.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Meanwhile, a slight issue with the wagon and its wooden barrels of delicious, necessary alcohol soon became apparent:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hmm.  If the !!SCIENCE!! doesn't pay off and they don't freeze to death, those are going to be some very irate dwarves.  Oh...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, discovery number one: dogs definitely freeze to death.  So, it turns out, do yaks, hens, cats and drakes.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But dwarves, at least so far, seem to be doing just fine and dandy (although they are all complaining about the draft - while standing naked on a glacier).  Maybe they're immune to the cold.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ah.  Or maybe not.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Okay, definitely not.

So, test result: yes, dwarves can freeze to death on a glacier, as can all other creatures that I embarked with.  Also, alcohol can freeze, as can your wagon, leaving you with nothing but a snow-covered pick and some wonderfully useless crossbow bolts.

Oh, and freezing to death doesn't leave the corpses in a particularly neat state, either:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Pan on July 10, 2011, 04:27:30 am
How would they do with clothes, though? Will they freeze with clothes on?
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: jhxmt on July 10, 2011, 04:51:47 am
Wiki tells me that clothes "help".  I assume it means help to avoid freezing but, this being DF, it might not.  ;)

I've deleted that world now, but may do a similar thing but embark with lots and lots of clothing (in reality I assume lots of wool clothing would be most effective, but doubt that DF models insulation beyond the "is this dwarf wearing anything at all" level) and see how long it takes (a) a naked dwarf, (b) a normally-clad dwarf and (c) a dwarf layered up to the utmost possible level to freeze to death.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Teamwork on July 10, 2011, 09:39:13 am
Whoa, I didn't know that the tempature system was that well established to register ambient heat and coldness and apply it to creatures and such. I'm gonna try this out for my self since I've already have established a glacier fort.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: squeakyReaper on July 10, 2011, 09:44:03 am
It's more "If you're touching it, you feel it" than developed heat.  Try catching something on fire and see how spectacularly the temperature system fails.  If you're not touching a glacier directly, you really can't feel any of the cold from it IIRC.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Patchy on July 10, 2011, 01:40:40 pm
Impressive, in all my embarks into glaciers and tundras (and there are a LOT of embarks), I've never had anything freeze to death. I thought it was actual myth. Then again I've never set world gen temps that low though. Might be that a standard glacier simply isn't cold enough. Oh well, bravo and very good science.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: saintjebus on July 10, 2011, 01:41:10 pm
Looks like it didn't happen until a snow storm, though. Could it be that stuff only freezes when in an active snow storm?
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Urist Da Vinci on July 18, 2011, 01:49:09 am
Putting in my knowledge on the topic:

- Temperatures above ground vary with biome, location, and time of year. Temperatures below ground are fixed at 10015 U (47F or 8C). Look here: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Temperature
Some water-based freeze traps exploit the difference to turn goblins into ice-encased popsicles.

- It was different in 40d, but in the current version, creatures only get burn or frostbite damage if the temperature goes past the HEATDAM or COLDDAM points of their tissue materials. The creatures will only catch fire if the temperature exceeds their tissue IGNITE point. This damage will show up as "wear" on objects, including the corpse object.

- For most living creature tissues in DF, the COLDDAM point is 9900 U (-68F or -56C) and the HEATDAM point is 10250 U (282F or 139C). I should note that creatures currently often die of bleeding due to body fat melting before they catch fire. The DF temperature system doesn't track blood, otherwise creatures would have their blood freeze before getting frostbite!

-In 40d, creatures had a [LAYERING:xx] token (removed for versions 31.xx), where dwarves had [LAYERING:50], humans had [LAYERING:10], and polar bears had [LAYERING:300], which controlled insulation. Creatures also had a [HOMEOTHERM:xxxxx] token, which was their preferred body temperature. Clothing also helped, but I recall freezing at least one adventurer to death while exploring a glacier in 40d. I also recall giant cave spiders dying when exposed to outdoor temperatures in some embark locations, because they had no insulation at all.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: frodo0800 on July 18, 2011, 05:42:24 pm
on  runesmith flags tab there is an option : insulation from clothing.
so, i supose cloths do help
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: franti on July 19, 2011, 11:18:54 am
I embarked on an evil tundra literally next door to a goblin fort. Some advice:
- Build a temporary shelter in dirt before you head for the caverns: it'll help train your miners and get your dwarves out of the open.
- Don't bring herd animals, they'll starve. (I don't have this problem, yee-ha for not updating!)
- Bring wood and fuel: you can't count on easy magma access or a convenient sedimentary layer packed full of coal. The only thing you can count on is need.
- Bring a breeding pair of war-dogs for protection, and if things go wrong, meat, skin, and bones.
- There are many large herd-like animals in the tundra, but no water, so sell some food for beer, and bring a hunter.
- At the enterance of your fort, use Floodgates instead of Doors to keep snatchers and ambushes out. Same goes for the Cave-side of your fortress, although trolls with still get through so you may want a bridge instead.
- You'll need to buy a lot of stuff early on, so bring one Proficient Stonecrafter/Bone Carver and have him working around the clock so you can pretty much buy out the caravan.
- Don't bring an anvil: you'll buy one later with the crafts your Stonecrafter/Bone Carver makes, but for now you need the extra booze/food/skill points.
- Bring a Doctor and some Gypsum Plaster for the inevitable broken bones. Disable hauling on your Doctor and designate a hospital ASAP. Make sure your doctor "has a sense of duty" and "likes helping others".
- Create a militia squad and put every dwarf in it that doesn't already carry a weapon or belong to a real military squad. This squad won't be summoned to fight or wear armour, but it will allow your dwarves to carry around weapons for defense against various cave dwellers. I spawned on an area without fuel or magma, so I used Obsidian Shortswords: They're good against unarmoured enemies, cheap and easy to make, and with a Proficient Stonecrafter they'll be high(er) quality.
- When embarking at first, bring only "specalized" dwarves to help build the fort: use the useless migrants for "labor": farming, furnace operating, smoothing stone. I recomend the following dwarves:
1 Adequate Hunter
1 Adequate Doctor (Adequate Wound Dressing, Adequate Diagnosing, Adequate Surgery, etc.)
1 Proficient Craftsdwarf (Proficient Stonecrafter OR Proficient Bone Carver, or both)
1 Adequate Mason/Adequate Mechanic
3 Novice Miners (they'll level fast)
-Since I always have my doctor standing around the "town center", I'd make him a temporary animal trainer/tanner/leatherworker, so he can train the war dog puppies and make usable leather out of the skin of the animals your hunter kills.
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: Fievreux on July 19, 2011, 03:33:26 pm
I embarked on a calm glacier with very little preparation and made it to my third year with absolutely no difficulty. My recommendations:
Bring three miners, one farmer, two peasants, and an armed axedwarf. Not a macedwarf, not a swordsdwarf, an axedwarf. That axe can be used to cut down fungiwood. Also: bring a bit of wood. But not too much. A male and female dog, and a male and female horse.

"But why," you ask, "would you foolishly bring along two peasants?" Because peasants can gain skills just like any other dwarf. Your farmer will be the star of the show when you start the game--the first thing to do is dig until you hit natural caverns. If you hit a layer of sand before the caverns, then you are truly blessed. In the case of the latter, start unloading in the caverns near water (while the axedwarf keeps watch / chops some fungiwood) and have your farmer go nuts making plots in the sand. Don't worry about pig tails, as there will be enough cave spider silk to go around.

In the event that there isn't sand, just use what grassy areas you can in the underground caverns to keep yourself sustained, then train a peasant as a mechanic and make a floodgate to redirect underground water to create whole muddy plots. Dat floodgate. After you've got farms in place, find a source of wood, then start building workshops.

Standard fort things should be your first priority--a meeting hall / dining room, bedrooms for the dwarves to make happy thoughts, an office for a bookkeeper/broker which you will 100% need. Due to a bug, cave fish are so rare that you won't find any. It sucks. Counter this by keeping animals alive and breeding them, butchering frequently to have a surplus of meat. Once you've got a stable plant/meat source going, have a chef prepare meals. Migrants may have arrived by now, anyway.

You should have a refuse plot on the surface, and cave toad attacks will leave you with plenty of bones to use. If you don't find tons of gems and cave spider silk (that can be traded for valuable wood and animals) then make bone crafts. Otherwise, bolts. Bolts bolts bolts. You'll want marksdwarves for hunting, and holding future sieges at bay. Luckily, I hit kaolinite and bituminous coal and never had to worry about money and barrels again.

I'm sure this isn't the most efficient or orthodox way of doing things, but I hope it helps!
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: ignatzami on July 19, 2011, 03:41:23 pm
Does anyone know, if the top level of your embark is an ice layer, and you pump magma onto it, will it melt?
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: frodo0800 on July 19, 2011, 04:10:18 pm
it will cause a lot of lag why?
when the magam heats the water it creates steam the steam goes up and them freeze and then them magma heats up the water again and again and it takes a while to stop and the final result is some obsidian and ice
Title: Re: Tundra/Glacier Fortress
Post by: franti on July 19, 2011, 04:11:32 pm
Quote from: ignatzami on July 19, 2011, 03:41:23 pm
Does anyone know, if the top level of your embark is an ice layer, and you pump magma onto it, will it melt?
Natural Ice will melt. If it's constructed, or smoothed, it won't.
But it's a bad idea: Ice melts into water, water reacts with magma, forming obsidian, and you've got the best FPS killer since kittens.