Bay 12 Games Forum
Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: Lancezh on July 18, 2011, 12:39:24 pm
-
I couldnt find anything through the search about the idea i had today...
What about if Siegers or just Hostiles like thieves for instance could Place Traps which are invisible until either triggered or uncovered by someone with the "Mechanic" (or just Military Dwarfs on Patrol with dogs) Labour above 5 gazillion exp ? It would require them some time to set them up of course...
I could think of many hillarious incidents like fishers, woodcutters getting caugt in Cages and then a gobbothiev tries to snatch him away off the map. Would make Patrols much more useful on the outside and would add a little twist to the upper world.
"Urist Mc Fisherdorf triggered a trap! Protect the chil... err... the Urist!"
-
Im sure that Toady was planning on siegers using siege weapons, but this would make a lot of sense as well particularrly for thieves and the like.
-
I would only support this on a few notes.
* Spotting them should be based off of the observer skill.
* Enemies can only lay 'simple traps' like bear traps and such that restrain the dwarf while only inflicting minor (but still painful) damage.
-
* Enemies can only lay 'simple traps' like bear traps and such that restrain the dwarf while only inflicting minor (but still painful) damage.
Where's the challenge in that ? Why not Cagetraps for instance ?
-
* Enemies can only lay 'simple traps' like bear traps and such that restrain the dwarf while only inflicting minor (but still painful) damage.
Where's the challenge in that ? Why not Cagetraps for instance ?
I would support cage traps (However logically speaking a cage trap would be to easy to spot, a snare trap would be a much better alternative even if it accomplished the same goal)
However, I doubt a goblin would have the know how or the time to show up and successfully install a properly working 10 Iron Serrated Disc Blade trap while still making it invisible to the casual glance. It would be much easier, and Fun if a goblin would come on the map, and throw out multiple bear traps and leave. Perhaps some 'logic' could be instated where a goblin will watch your dwarves traffic pattern and say "Hmm... they fish by that pond a lot" and drop four or five traps next to it.
If timed with an ambush this could kill a few stuck dwarves.
-
I am also up for seige traps, and up for only simple as well. Even a simple upward spear trap is a bit much. Snares, beartraps, cages. Those can make launching counterattacks against really Fun.
-
I'd say you should have something like snares in grass, but not on bare rock, which affect (i.e. tether) smaller animals, like pets. Wildlife also, which could ruin the surprise for you (although you might not know why the wild marmot isn't pathing anywhere if it isn't your own snare[1]. Larger animals and dwarfs (give or take, maybe the ones with smaller body mass not included) would merely trip on them, if that, then travel onwards after ruining it. Or able to cancel the grip with gnawing, if not grabbed by the neck.
Beartraps also for grasslands, but more wounding (yes, snares should probably wound appropriate victims, but over time, not immediately).
Immediately adjacent to trees, I could see some sort of kinetic spike trap. (Or, if you're fan of them, a larger rope-based snare trap that grabs and holds larger creatures... typically upside down by one limb. But larger animals still could still ignore them.)
Pit traps might take some more effort, but could be made in various complimentary terrains. They'd be effectively a hidden channel, and (if it's something like a kobold that created them) the kobold could route past it then stop just behind it, if being chased by just one warrior, luring the warrior onto that tile. (It would work with the usual military AI, and even player vigilance wouldn't necessarily give any warning, and when the warrior is hot on the trail he'd be hard to divert away.)
Bringing cages along... I dunno. I do sort of imagine DF cage-traps as being a cage's 'net' (in the mathematical sense) being flattened out on the ground, and springing up around the creature when it triggers the mechanism in the middle of the floor bit, the walls and roof of the cage encompassing it, up through the undergrowth, sand or other locale-specific camouflaging material spread over the prone cage. I suppose that could be set up by others, and again in most (if not all) ground-types.
For the same reason as I've never really liked the "suspended cage dropping down on the enemy" version of the above, rock-fall traps in their current form (I understand they're going to need accessible Z+1 space to load, sometime in the future, which would be better) I can't see these being given credence by the enemy. Though with the Indianna Trap concept (big rolling stone, and I know Toady's trying to get such things to roll, obey ramps and gain speed) I could see something like that being set up in rocky and hilly terrain.
To counter (in both directions... them countering your traps as well as you countering their now-possible ones) I would support the Observation skill, but with a small additional bonus for mechanical (and/or 'trapping'[2]) know-how.
For enemy entities to create them, I suggest there should be a chance of them doing what appears to be being done right now (attempting to path inwards to your fort, as per known and visible hostile groups prior to any losing of morale) until either succumbing to your traps or finding your dwarfs, charging them and revealing themselves, or to do similar but, instead of charging your guys, stalk them. This would be at the risk of being stumbled over by other fortress guys (or wildlife) and revealing, but if they spend a little bit of time spotting water-carrying, or outer-defence-building, they then attempt to set up whatever form of trap they are capable of (it will take some time, might need some form of finesse to accomplish, and so not possible on a constantly in-use trail) and back off a bit to wait some more. Or, as aforementioned, lumber up and attempt to elicit a response (either scaring the targets into the trap, or leading the them onto them... Which I admit is a decision-making process that's a tall order for the AI to work out).
If it doesn't work out, they may abandon the trap (which would still be active, until crushed or otherwise activated by the migrating herd of elephants) and choose to make another trap (requires some form of either harvested or brought-along component, the lack of availability of which might be the cue to resort to Plan A as we currently see it).
Enemy 'ambush-ready' units might have the same capabilities, but I'm sure that there'd be a measure of impetuousness in a unit (moderated by the unit command's leadership skill) that might have one of the jump forward instead of letting some of the others set up an array of traps.
The above contains a lot of stuff that's probably less than viable. So let's backtrack a bit and take a different bite at this problem.
Let's say we start at the "ad-hoc trap" level, things that need just rope or fibres to create the snare, or basis of the tree-based traps, possibly a spare blade/sharpened stick to be the active item (or be incorporated into the terrain-dictated base trap materials), or something that would help restrain/nudge the handy boulder found on site. They give not particularly good traps. i.e. not perfect cages that can hold anything that can't avoid the mechanism, not particularly all-powerful wounding effects, but cause for thought. (Later on, we can perhaps consider syndrome effects from either the components of the trap, locally gathered substances of specially-carried vials.) None of them are mechanism-powered (being currently very much akin to the Devices as seen in Pratchett's Thud!, having seemingly no limits to their power beyond the components being used with them) and that should be Ok.
Introduce this for both fortress locals and invader (or other supposedly friendly?) representatives, with racial variations in capability, variety and composition much as with current armaments. Involves a brought item which is a sort of equipment/ammo option (so only military/militia dwarfs and hunters?) and suitable locale to be enacted. No extra hauling from stockpiles. Time is the biggest resource needed (skill-mitigated, but still awkward). Trap setters cancel easily on being disturbed, and take the base component away with them (or drop it?) rather than leaving a suspended and resumable job.
The AI (or at least agent tactics) behind non-player attempts at trap-laying is the biggest issue I can't currently suggest an answer for. Or, rather, not one that I can consider as comprehensive as it ought to be. It could be fudged as a chance that there is some sort of Gaussian placement of a trap in the vicinity of where a trap-capable enemy has been able to hover undetected and not been sufficiently disturbed by locals (or you could use a kd-tree splitting method to pare the possible area down to spots where this is fulfilled, to save on FPS and memory crippling). As already said, a good reason to send out active patrols.
Enough said, let's post, fully expecting to be ninjaed or superseded by now.
[1] Because if you give sneaky invaders the chance to place such traps, you should have them as well.
[2] Might a dwarf highly trained in Trapping could be a The Hurt Locker kind of person..? Certainly useful to have on your squad, though perhaps in a rear-ward position when it comes to fighting if he's not also good at combat. Everyone else protects him so that he can protect them and reveal IMDs before part of your squad succumbs to one.