Post by: Sheb on July 18, 2011, 01:35:47 pm
This is an Aurora inter-forum game. Aurora is a wonderful spatial 4X game, of amazing complexity. You can find more infos about Aurora here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=47678.msg2450922#msg2450922).
In this particular game, two forum will fight each other. Bay12 control the Titan Caliphate and another forum, somewhere, control another faction.
I'll act as GM, collecting orders from both boards, playing the game and submitting the results.
How do I play?
Playing is easy. Just make suggestions on the board, or edit the order list. Orders may be specific or rather vague (Send some ships to investigate this is a valid order). Later on I may add some form of government structures, but for now I won't. Which doesn't mean you cannot try to organize your own.
You can also ask to have a ship named after you, or a captain, scientists... You won't have any control over it/him/her, but I'll write about it/him/her if something important happens. I won't be controlling captain assignment directly, so you can't as for a Cruiser captain. You can ask for a great Captain and hope the game put him in charge of that 14,000 tons Carrier however.
In Games Rules
-Real Stars are off.
-Invaders are off, Swarm and Precursors are on.
-Inexperienced fleet malus is off.
-I won't use Geo Team, because it's to much to micromanage.
Forum Games Rules
-Try to keep Aurora talk not related to this game on other thread.
-Orders will take the following form:
Spoiler: Orders (click to show/hide)
-Each forum can send one message per turn to the other forum. Messages will go through me for translation. Craft them carefully.
-I'll always use the last versions of the orders. If there is obvious conflict it'll be solved by voting.
-You only know what's happening in your capital's system, and in system linked by Jump Gate or picket ship to your capital system. You may never learn why your fleet disappeared.
-I'll manage combat. Feel free to write extensive battle doctrine about how I should manage it.
-I'm free to invent new rules as the game go on.
Turns:
1st January 1542-1st January 1543 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89172.msg2494930#msg2494930)
The Ghostly Menace (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89172.msg2529027#msg2529027)
The Battle for the Belt (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89172.msg2533040#msg2533040)
-> 1st January 1544 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89172.msg2534262#msg2534262)
1st January 1544 -> 1st January 1545 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89172.msg2567556#msg2567556)
1st January 1545 -> 1st January 1546 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89172.msg2653333#msg2653333)
Spoiler: Ennemy Classes (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sheb on July 18, 2011, 01:36:43 pm
A long time ago...
In the year 1097 to be exact, warfare was raging in the Holy Land. After the failure of the People's Crusade, the Princes and their Knights finally arrived to grab as much land as they could and chase the Muslims out of the Holy city of Al-Aqsa.
While the Westerner were busy butchering the inhabitants of the once great city of Antioch, and while the brave army of Kerbogha was approaching to put an end to the Crusader's crimes, an event occurred that was going to change History forever.
As the desperate knights and men-at-arms were trying to hold the very walls they just took, a bright flash lit up the sky. Allah itself had decided to smite the unbelievers and sent a great vessels of steel crash into them.
The resulting explosion should have been the final blow to the infidels, but a monk by the name of Peter Bartholomew, climbing inside the wreck, found a piece of twisted metal he claimed was the Holy Lance. Invigorated by the supposed relic, the Crusader did a last charge, and manage to repel and ultimately defeat Kerbogha.
In the following weeks, the major Prince started fighting between each others over the “Relics”. Using the situation, Kerbogha assembled a new army and finally drove the Christians away from the Holy land, but not before they had taken everything they could from the remain of Allah's gift.
The Golden Age
One of Kerbogha's first action was to disassemble the wreck and bring it to Cairo, the Fatimid's capital. It is said that more than 100,000 camels were needed.
There, the Caliph Ahmad Al-Mustalī recognized the wreck were a present from Allah, sent to thanks his followers from saving Al-Aqsa. Once a servant mistakenly turned on a computer, it was decreed that the words on the screen were the Words of the Creator himself. Soon, the best ulemas from the Caliphate were studying the inscription and trying to decipher the strange language they were written in. Great was their surprise that the All-Peaceful had chosen not to give them a moral code of conduct, but endless technical information. Most of it was far beyond the comprehension of even the wisest of the ulemas, but here and there there was information they could use. By 1160, the Caliphate was fully industrialized. In 1184, the first tanks rolled from the production lines, and the Sultan Saladin used them to invade India. In 1187, Muslims airmen carpet-bombed Beijing during the invasion of China. The first satellites, “Refyg” was put into orbit in the summer of 1196 from the Mecca Space Center.
From the tip of Africa to the Eastern shores of Asia, a single Caliph ruled over millions of subjects. Each year, many millions souls were saved and many millions infidels were put out of their misery. Allah's triumph would have been complete if Europe hadn't been pursuing the same path, corrupting Allah's works for their use. Both the Americas were now ruled by Christians kings. Istanbul had been taken in 1183, but all the assault over the Bosphorus failed. The whole city was now a no-man's land, the world's most militarized border. In Russia, Crusaders and Mujahedin fought for many years until it become clear no one could gain the upper hands, and an unspoken truce was reached.
Nothing changed much until nuclear weapons changed the game. Cairo and Rome were reduced to piles of rubble. Facing the prospect of nuclear annihilation, the Caliphs signed a peace treaty with the Holy Roman Emperor that had become Christianity's beacon after the death of the Pope and Cardinals in Rome.
The Apocalypse
With the war over for now, both sides continued developing themselves. The firsts Tran-Newtonian minerals were discovered in 1237. Soon both nations were sending ships in space. The christian settled Mercury while the Muslims established a colony on Titan. Both side shared Mars.
Everything was going well, when in the autumn of 1248, at 13:43 the 3rd of October, christian launched an unprovoked nuclear strike on Muslim land. Mecca, Shanghai and Delhi went up in flames. Missile silos deep inside the Himalaya counter-striked, erasing Paris, London and Roma Neo from the face of the Earth. Further strikes followed until, at 13:59, there was not a single human being alive on Earth. By the 7th of October, missiles launched from Earth reached the colonies on Mars, erasing any life there as well.
The Struggle
Without shipping from Earth, the situation for the colonists on Titan was dire indeed. Many died from cold or starvation. The others managed to rebuild a new society. Soon a new Caliphate was established. Infrastructures were built, and Titan was slowly terraformed.
The year is now 1542, and the Titan Caliphate is finally ready to conquer the skies again. Allah Akbar!
Post by: Sheb on July 18, 2011, 01:37:43 pm
What will you do?
Spoiler: Caliphate's Ships (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Current Order Of Battle (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Techs (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Titan (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Map Of the Solar System (click to show/hide)
Take your time digesting all that information, the first turn won't be run until Friday, as I still need to post on the other forum (And I can't copy/paste anything cause it must be in French). Please point any mistake of mine and feel free to ask questions.
Post by: Azkul on July 18, 2011, 02:48:52 pm
It is difficult to know what type of part it is by the name.
Something like Arath (Nuclear Thermal Engine) would be better.
Post by: Bremen on July 18, 2011, 02:51:05 pm
Everything was going well, when in the autumn of 1248, at 13:43 the 3rd of October, christian launched an unprovoked nuclear strike on Muslim land. Mecca, Shanghai and Delhi went up in flames. Missile silos deep inside the Himalaya counter-striked, erasing Paris, London and Roma Neo from the face of the Earth. Further strikes followed until, at 13:59, there was not a single human being alive on Earth. By the 7th of October, missiles launched from Earth reached the colonies on Mars, erasing any life there as well.
The other forum's report doesn't happen to say it was an unprovoked Muslim attack, does it? :P
Initial thoughts:
Given the history, I suspect that relations between us and any other survivors are going to be somewhat cold. I suggest we want to defend our holdings well, and if hostilities start try to lure them into a trap and kill them with a combination of our fleet and planetary defenses.
We have a lot of research labs and shipyards, but not much in the way of terrestrial (Titantrial?) industry. I think we should build more factories ASAP, as well as some mines.
We'll need more minerals too, especially corundium. Does this game use geosurvey teams? Regardless, we probably want to send the survey ship out. Assuming the Christians are still on Mercury and might be tempted by a blind, unarmed survey ship, I suggest we send the ship outwards (focusing on the other moons of Saturn first) rather than inwards. We should also probably build a second one, which we can send inwards.
Technology:
Could we get a list of technology and maybe scientists?
I don't speak Arabic (assuming that's what it is), but I am guessing our weapons are meson based, given the range and the fact that PDCs use them. Gunboats with mesons can be pretty effective assuming they don't get swatted out of the sky before they get into range (for this reason as well as not having to pay maintenance, fighters might be slightly better). They're fairly slow for their size, though: I think our first tech goal should be better engines.
Another possibility would be to work on missiles. I don't see any sign of them on our ships, but they're very lethal in this game. For the tactics I'm envisioning (more on this later) we'll want defenses focused around planets; the best planetary defenses are pretty much missiles, fighters, and then gunboats in that order. Our current Meson based PDC is fairly useless, IMHO, though since it costs no maintenance we might as well keep them around and hope they can shoot down a few incoming missiles.
Its been 300 years, so Earth and Mars may be habitable again, but those are far closer to Mercury than to Titan. IIRC, Titan is the only remotely habitable rock in the outer system, so they have an advantage there. We might consider developing jump drive tech and trying to beat them to the stars.
Military thoughts:
Assuming there are still Christians on Mercury, we have to consider them a threat. Being in the inner system, they have some advantages:
The planets are closer together, and they'll be able to establish new colonies faster than us. With decent sensor coverage, they will probably be able to use a single fleet to protect Mars, Earth, Venus, and Mercury, moving to intercept any fleet of ours. In comparison, a colony on Jupiter or Uranus might put the entire inner system between us and our colony. I suggest that our military policy include an element of retaliation rather than just defense; if their fleet heads for Jupiter, our ships probably wont be able to beat them there. But they might be able to beat them to Mercury. On a suicide mission, gunboats could make it two thirds of the way on their own, and they're three times as fast as our full sized ships. In fact, if we go with planet based gunboats it might be best (though cold blooded) to make sure any future designs are capable of a suicide strike on the inner system on their own.
As far as defense, I recommend a strategy of fortified bases. Jupiter and Saturn each have a lot of moons, and a dedicated fighter or missile base on one moon can help defend them all. Gunboats don't need bases, but require maintenance facilities/modules and minerals to maintain. I doubt troops will help much; any war will probably be to destroy the enemy rather than capture objectives, and its a lot easier to nuke troops from orbit than fight them on the ground if you don't care about the planet. We might build some engineers (four would be a nice number, since they would all fit in the troop transport), which can build PDCs on uninhabitable colonies and will offer some defense strength if it comes to a ground fight
We'll also want more deep space tracking stations, so we can keep an eye out for other ships. They're amazingly powerful passive sensors, and they stack without penalty.
Post by: Azkul on July 18, 2011, 02:56:08 pm
Post by: inteuniso on July 18, 2011, 03:10:00 pm
Post by: Bremen on July 18, 2011, 03:14:13 pm
I would suggest researching sorium harvesters so we can get to work harvesting Saturn's atmosphere. Those other survivors might not be as smart.
Ah, I was considering listing our advantages, and sorium harvesting is one of them. There are no gas giants in the inner system, after all.
However, not all gas giants have sorium. Lets see if we find a deposit first, then we can consider mining Saturn. Titan's own sorium deposits are enough for now.
Also, with extended range gunboats and sorium harvesters scattered around, we could do some neat tricks with in flight refueling.
Post by: RedKing on July 18, 2011, 03:24:08 pm
Metis and Atlas are each about 125,000 km from their parent body. Uranus and Neptune both have multiple moons that are far closer.
@Sheb: Can we get a readout of our tech levels? Would be handy in figuring out things like how big a sensor station would need to be to cover strength X at distance Y.
Post by: Bremen on July 18, 2011, 03:34:28 pm
We also have to assume that the infidels will need Sorium. While there may be some in the Mercurian crust, the majority of Sorium in the Solar System will be in the gas giants -- our home turf. We need to develop a way to monitor the four gas giants (especially the inner ones, Jupiter and Saturn) while minimizing detection. Maybe a small listening post on the innermost moons? If they send surveyors and/or harvesters, we will have the advantage of surprise and can dispatch an attack force to ambush them.
Not necessarily on the Sorium; if you're using the other forum game for reference, I artificially boosted Sorium in gas giants for strategic reasons.
We will definitely want lots of listening posts, though.
Can our colony on Titan detect the signature of a colony on Mars? If so, how do the EM and thermal readings compare with our own colony's.
Post by: RedKing on July 18, 2011, 03:54:00 pm
We also have to assume that the infidels will need Sorium. While there may be some in the Mercurian crust, the majority of Sorium in the Solar System will be in the gas giants -- our home turf. We need to develop a way to monitor the four gas giants (especially the inner ones, Jupiter and Saturn) while minimizing detection. Maybe a small listening post on the innermost moons? If they send surveyors and/or harvesters, we will have the advantage of surprise and can dispatch an attack force to ambush them.
Not necessarily on the Sorium; if you're using the other forum game for reference, I artificially boosted Sorium in gas giants for strategic reasons.
We will definitely want lots of listening posts, though.
Can our colony on Titan detect the signature of a colony on Mars? If so, how do the EM and thermal readings compare with our own colony's.
Nah, I was just going from past experience. Usually at least one of the gas giants has a few million Sorium in it. Venus is often the motherlode of the inner planets, but the presence of Sorium is a crapshoot.
With 1 Strength 250 tracker on Titan, depending on the current distance, any site on Mars (or Mercury) would have to emitting about strength 4000 to be detected. Also, we won't need any other listening posts in the Saturn orbital group. That single tracking station on Titan is sufficient to pick up anything of about strength 5 even at the 1 million km distance to Saturn. Didn't realize that tracking stations were that potent. Given that, stations in the Jovian, Uranian and Neptunian orbital groups should be chosen for their strategic value rather than simply being the closest in. Io, Europa, Callisto and Ganymede should all be surveyed ASAP and a small listening post placed on whichever is going to have the most long-term value. The remaining Jovian moons are essentially pebbles.
Post by: Bremen on July 18, 2011, 04:06:57 pm
We also have to assume that the infidels will need Sorium. While there may be some in the Mercurian crust, the majority of Sorium in the Solar System will be in the gas giants -- our home turf. We need to develop a way to monitor the four gas giants (especially the inner ones, Jupiter and Saturn) while minimizing detection. Maybe a small listening post on the innermost moons? If they send surveyors and/or harvesters, we will have the advantage of surprise and can dispatch an attack force to ambush them.
Not necessarily on the Sorium; if you're using the other forum game for reference, I artificially boosted Sorium in gas giants for strategic reasons.
We will definitely want lots of listening posts, though.
Can our colony on Titan detect the signature of a colony on Mars? If so, how do the EM and thermal readings compare with our own colony's.
Nah, I was just going from past experience. Usually at least one of the gas giants has a few million Sorium in it. Venus is often the motherlode of the inner planets, but the presence of Sorium is a crapshoot.
With 1 Strength 250 tracker on Titan, depending on the current distance, any site on Mars (or Mercury) would have to emitting about strength 4000 to be detected. Also, we won't need any other listening posts in the Saturn orbital group. That single tracking station on Titan is sufficient to pick up anything of about strength 5 even at the 1 million km distance to Saturn. Didn't realize that tracking stations were that potent. Given that, stations in the Jovian, Uranian and Neptunian orbital groups should be chosen for their strategic value rather than simply being the closest in. Io, Europa, Callisto and Ganymede should all be surveyed ASAP and a small listening post placed on whichever is going to have the most long-term value. The remaining Jovian moons are essentially pebbles.
The EM signature of Titan is strength 145,000. We should probably be able to detect any sizable colony on Mercury.
And detecting a strength 5 signature at 1,000,000 km isn't enough. It's not for targeting, its to give early warning of approaching ships. 3 or 4 should let us detect a ship the size of our carrier in the nearer part of the asteroid belt; double that and we can probably keep track of their fleet as soon as it leaves the orbit of Mercury. You don't put multiple listening posts on different moons of Saturn, you put them all on one, and the range stacks.
Post by: Sheb on July 18, 2011, 04:24:29 pm
Edit: Added the Hebron.
Edit: Added Brackets
Edit: Added Tech
Edit: Added Ground Forces,, in the Titan spoiler.
Post by: Bremen on July 18, 2011, 05:00:19 pm
You do indeed detect a emission from Mercury. Your Tracking Station gives you Thermal readings of 9585 and EM reading of 45510. I'll work on a tech summary. And yeah, those are Meson guns. I really feel bad, since it took me so long to find all those fitting arabic names.
Edit: Added the Hebron.
Edit: Added Brackets.
It was nice flavor.
Those emissions are shockingly lower than our own; very strange. Actually, I think the numbers on our summary page are off, though I have no idea why. EM signature is population, and based on my own games an EM reading of 45k would be about 700m people. Thermal is produced by installations, and by the same baseline that number would seem to indicate Mercury has an industry smaller than I would expect a full on homeworld to have, but maybe at about the level of Titan's. Maybe we can check the EM and thermal signature of Titan next update.
Post by: Sheb on July 18, 2011, 05:04:55 pm
Post by: Bremen on July 18, 2011, 05:07:31 pm
Checking using the other race, your emissions are what is displayed on your summary. I guess they are that way because of the shocking amount of Infrastructures I had to SM on Titan.
Ought to panic the other race nicely, then!
Post by: Sheb on July 18, 2011, 05:08:19 pm
Post by: Bremen on July 18, 2011, 05:09:53 pm
I also added a map. Jupiter is indeed across the central solar system.
Is planet and moon movement on? Asteroids?
Post by: Sheb on July 18, 2011, 05:10:39 pm
Post by: Bremen on July 18, 2011, 05:26:45 pm
Jupiter should rotate around to us in, oh, a decade or so; within a few years we should be able to survey it without needing to skirt around the inner system. If they're using orbital refinery ships we can destroy or capture them once it gets closer.
Since we know there's a population on Mercury, should we send them a message?
For our military construction, I suggest we focus on gunboats for the time being. I'm not too fond of meson armed ships, but the speed of the gunboats makes them much more practical; unlike fighters, they can also be maintained indefinitely in orbit. On a closer look it appears we lack maintenance facilities, so we'll also want to build enough for our ships (70, I think) before they start breaking down.
Post by: Sheb on July 18, 2011, 05:30:38 pm
Post by: Bremen on July 18, 2011, 05:56:49 pm
Just for records, you're totally right about planet positions.
Are we supposed to not have maintenance facilities?
Post by: Sheb on July 18, 2011, 06:22:04 pm
Post by: Thranx on July 18, 2011, 07:23:39 pm
Edit: Also are Mars and Earth piles of reactive slag or are they colonizable worlds?
Post by: Bremen on July 18, 2011, 07:27:42 pm
Is there any way we can get a read on the thickness atmosphere surrounding of Mercury basically I would like to know if it is to thick for lasers or other non meson (mesons and microwaves are the only energy weapons that cannot target populations unprotected by atmospheres) energy weapons to penetrate.
Mesons can't target a population or installations, though they can blow up PDCs. Not sure about microwaves.
I think the only ways to bombard a planet with an atmosphere as thick or thicker than Earth's is with missiles.
Post by: Thranx on July 18, 2011, 07:39:53 pm
Is there any way we can get a read on the thickness atmosphere surrounding of Mercury basically I would like to know if it is to thick for lasers or other non meson (mesons and microwaves are the only energy weapons that cannot target populations unprotected by atmospheres) energy weapons to penetrate.
Mesons can't target a population or installations, though they can blow up PDCs. Not sure about microwaves.
I think the only ways to bombard a planet with an atmosphere as thick or thicker than Earth's is with missiles.
True I was asking if Mercury's atmosphere is thinner than Earths.
Anyway I was wondering if you think it worth the possible provocation and the probable loss of a gunboat to put as many espionage teams into a GB as can fit and then send in on a suicide mission to drop the teams off on Mercury so we can begin gathering intel as soon as possible.
Also I think that we should have a standing policy that we destroy any ship that approaches Saturn in order prevent the infidels from infiltrating our haven of righteousness and stealing our technologies and learning to much about our ships and culture.
Post by: Knave on July 18, 2011, 07:44:57 pm
Not sure about any advice or opinions yet :)
Post by: Bremen on July 18, 2011, 07:56:05 pm
For our first vote, I think we should decide on what our relationship with the infidels should be like:
A) Aggressive: Actively shoot at any ship that we can; use the gunboats to chase down survey ships and the like. Keep plans for a strike on Mercury in mind if the opportunity presents itself.
B) Defensive: Don't fire at every opportunity, but give away nothing. If an enemy civilian ship comes into range, warn them off and fire if they continue to approach. Treat any advance on our territories as hostile.
C) Friendly: Try to establish communications and share the solar system peacefully. Don't shoot at them, but maybe ask them politely to stay out of our territory.
Yeah.. I don't think C is going to win. Basically it boils down to hot war or cold war.
Post by: Thranx on July 18, 2011, 08:06:34 pm
At this point I feel that it is unwise start a war against a complete unknown with out first gathering intelligence
Thus I support attempting to deploy a GB (I recommend a scout as the active sensors will give us numbers of ships and ground-troop strength) to attempt to deploy an espionage team to Mercury. It will probably result in the loss of the GB but it will be a sacrifice well worth it if we can get ahold of some of their tech and ship designs.
Post by: Bremen on July 18, 2011, 08:14:55 pm
I vote for (B) but feel that we should take the risk of attempting to drop espionage teems on Mercury.
At this point I feel that it is unwise start a war against a complete unknown with out first gathering intelligence
Thus I support attempting to deploy a GB (I recommend a scout as the active sensors will give us numbers of ships and ground-troop strength) to attempt to deploy an espionage team to Mercury. It will probably result in the loss of the GB but it will be a sacrifice well worth it if we can get ahold of some of their tech and ship designs.
I've been trying to think of ways to drop an espionage team, as well. I doubt a single gunboat could get into mercury orbit without being destroyed if they thought it was hostile, and we'd lose the espionage team. We might not even have the agents for one espionage team right now. We could try sending a peace envoy ship and see if they fall for it :P
Alternately, if Earth is now habitable, we could drop an espionage team on it and hope they colonize it eventually.
Questions for Sheb:
Are inexperienced fleet penalties on? (If so, maybe we could penetrate Mercury's space with a gunboat. But probably not, since they'd pick it up on deep space tracking at several million km)
How about Geosurvey teams?
Are Earth and Mars habitable?
Post by: Knave on July 18, 2011, 08:22:17 pm
I would say B for now until we can get more eyes on the heathens.
I bet they have lots of missile ships. (just a hunch)
Post by: Sheb on July 19, 2011, 07:11:00 am
Geo teams are off, as are inexperienced fleets (I'm pretty sure I wrote it in the OPs). Don't forget you can send a message to them per turn.
I'd also like you to be pretty clear on what kind of relation you want. I'm not going to stop the game every time they move a survey craft to ask you if you want to shoot it or not. So please add something like "Send GB to kill any civilian ships outside the Asteroid Belt", so I know what your borders are.
Do you want me to set up a polls?
Post by: RedKing on July 19, 2011, 07:48:07 am
(Of course, I'm fully aware there's probably someone on their side saying, "They nuked Rome! The Saracens must die!" :P )
Post by: inteuniso on July 19, 2011, 08:38:06 am
Post by: DemonOfWrath on July 19, 2011, 09:02:36 am
In addition, we could also send a small suicide ship (this can double with the suggestions of sending spy teams in) to guage how far they'll let us go into the inner solar system before they open fire. It's well worth knowing in advance if we can colonise Earth/Mars/the asteroid belt without a fight.
Post by: Azkul on July 19, 2011, 03:32:17 pm
Also: Obligatory music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9Lm30Xbu8c&feature=related)
Post by: Bremen on July 19, 2011, 03:46:13 pm
If we get a chance, we probably want to press for the entire outer system as territory. The asteroid belts are likely to be the main point of contention; optimistically the best we can probably hope for is to share them. We still have the Oort cloud, and there are a lot of moons in the outer system.
I'm also leaning more and more towards a ship with an espionage team. If they don't shoot it, we infiltrate the team and learn they're not shooting first. If they do shoot it, we learn that and also something about the weapons they're using.
We've got a number of choices for ships we could use. Gunboats are fast, cheap, and hard to hit, but using one will likely reveal we have a military using gunboats. A destroyer is expensive and would reveal less about our capabilities, but a major loss and likely to look threatening. We could send a geosurvey ship (which would probably involve building a second one); it looks innocent and is no major loss, but on the other hand has no sensors so we wouldn't get as much information.
Post by: Thranx on July 19, 2011, 08:13:22 pm
Something I'd suggest we'd need to determine is what their policy towards us is. It would do well to guage how aggressive the other side will be towards us, and in their own expansion. It would be prudent to try and place at least one tracking station on Jupiter (use a waypoint and take a roundabout route to avoid the inner solar system), as I could see them attempting to grab it while it's on the opposite side of the solar system, and we don't want to let them build up a strong presence there without a fight while we wait for it to move.
In addition, we could also send a small suicide ship (this can double with the suggestions of sending spy teams in) to guage how far they'll let us go into the inner solar system before they open fire. It's well worth knowing in advance if we can colonise Earth/Mars/the asteroid belt without a fight.
I agree we should learn as much about the apposing side before making in bold moves, however i have a suggestion for the ship that we send in instead of one of our currently constructed ships we retool the shipyard producing geo survey ships to build the following ship
Code: [Select]
Infiltrator class Black Ops 1,750 tons 124 Crew 192.8 BP TCS 35 TH 160 EM 0
4571 km/s Armour 5-12 Shields 0-0 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 1 PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 24% IFR: 0.3% Maint Capacity 69 MSP Max Repair 20 MSP Est Time: 4.82 Years
Nuclear Pulse Engine E9 (4) Power 40 Fuel Use 90% Signature 40 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 50,000 Litres Range 57.1 billion km (144 days at full power)
Active Search Sensor MR2-R100 (1) GPS 320 Range 2.6m km Resolution 100
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Basically it is a fast and cheap (less than 200 build points [each build point is worth one mineral plus one credit]) it is also well armored so it can take a few hits it is equipped with a tiny (0.2 hull spaces) active sensory to be turned on when the ship reaches the planet giving us ground troop size, number and size of shipyards and number and size of PDC's and other ships.
I also agree with Bremen that we should intercept any ship that approaches Saturn with our GB's and kill it before it reaches the orbit of the outermost moon of Saturn
Post by: Azkul on July 19, 2011, 08:34:55 pm
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on July 19, 2011, 08:45:32 pm
As we can send a message to the kuffār, we should send a message of peace to try to slightly reduce the suspicion of a ship approaching Mercury.
I'm guessing that the only way that they'll let us near Mercury unmolested is if they send a similar ship to Saturn, to scout us out as well. The only reason that we would be moving near Mercury would be to scout it, just as they would only be moving to Saturn to scout it.
Perhaps we could ask for free passage to Jupiter and take a few snapshots along the way?
Post by: Sheb on July 21, 2011, 06:45:31 am
Post by: DemonOfWrath on July 21, 2011, 06:56:17 am
Edit: Actually, if two seperate factions survey the same survey locations, will the results be the exact same? If faction A surveys a location and it reveals a JP at location X, will faction B locate the same JP at the same location if it surveys the same location and that no other locations will reveal that JP? An alternative if that's true would be to survey all the locations before them, noting which spot reveals which JP (at Sheb's expense, sorry), and thus blockading any survey locations that reveal JPs (or alternatively to that, JPs within say Saturn's orbit). I reckon this wouldn't be too hard to achieve actually.
Post by: EuchreJack on July 21, 2011, 09:59:47 am
Post by: Bremen on July 21, 2011, 12:16:35 pm
Space Orders:
Send the survey ship to survey Saturn and its moons, then Uranus and Neptune, then start work on the Oort Cloud.
Remaining ships should remain at Titan. If a single infidel ship approaches Saturn, Uranus, or Neptune, a squadron of gunboats should be sent to destroy it. If a fleet approaches, our fleet should form up and take the battle to the enemy (Carrier should stay at outer sensor range, destroyer and gunboats move in, if they start taking fire the gunboats will charge ahead at full speed). Ideally, infidel ships should be warned to leave before being fired upon, and only shot if they keep coming.
If a gravitational survey ship completes, have it begin surveying the system for jump points.
Industrial Orders
Produce 20 construction factories with 100% of our planetary industry
Produce 3 Hufuf FACs and 1 Mosul survey ship
Train an Engineering Brigade
If we finish gravitational survey sensors, build a gravitational survey ship in the destroyer shipyard.
If we finish small jump gate constructors, retool the all-peaceful yard and begin building a jump gate constructor.
Research Orders
Either with our best propulsion scientist, or best other scientist if we don't have one, work on Jump point theory with as many labs as possible, then Nuclear thermal/nuclear pulse missile drives, then fuel efficiency 2
Use any leftover labs, in order:
A Construction/Production scientist, or best unused scientist otherwise, should research on Construction rate 12, then mining rate 12, then (assuming jump point theory is done) research a small jump gate construction module.
Sensors/fire control specialist or best available: Active Grav sensor strength 12, EM sensor sensitivity 8, Active Grav Sensor Strength 14, Planetary Sensor Strength 300. If Jump point theory finishes, this scientist should drop everything to research gravitational survey sensors.
Logistics/Ground Combat research on improved command and control.
Missile/Kinetic research on, in order: Gun type fission warhead (strength 2), Reduced Size Launcher .75, Implosion Fission Warhead (Strength 3), Missile Agility 20, Levitated Pit Implosion warhead (strength 4), Reduced Size Launcher .5
Other Orders
Send a message to the Mercurians. Say that We just want to be left alone, and claim all space beyond the asteroid belt. Warn them that any vessel intruding into our space will be warned off, and then fired upon if it proceeds.
If/when gravitational survey sensors complete, design a grav survey ship. It should use military engines, have plenty of fuel and engineering spaces, and be less than 4,000 tons (possibly much less). No need for weapons.
If small jump gate construction modules finish, design a civilian jump gate constructor. Give it a little extra fuel, but otherwise keep it simple.
Post by: shadenight123 on July 21, 2011, 12:24:12 pm
might try the game after a while. with really much free time.
Post by: EuchreJack on July 21, 2011, 06:27:45 pm
Post by: Ehndras on July 21, 2011, 06:41:44 pm
Post by: Thranx on July 21, 2011, 07:47:32 pm
Anyway here is my edit for the orders the major change that I propose is that we dedicate our best scientist to research increased research speeds as the soon we get them the longer they have to pay off and in games like gaining or not gaining superior technology will win or lose the game thus research speeds should be our first priority
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: EuchreJack on July 22, 2011, 09:03:41 am
Post by: Talfryn on July 22, 2011, 01:48:33 pm
Post by: Bremen on July 22, 2011, 02:39:17 pm
Eventually, Insha'Allah, the Caliph should assert his superiority over the infidels by terraforming Venus.
It would be even more impressive if we terraform Mercury
(Into a methane atmosphere!)
Post by: Stworca on July 22, 2011, 03:42:23 pm
Post by: Felius on July 23, 2011, 12:25:45 am
About the infrastructure, couldn't you alter the stats of Titan with the SM a little bit, just enough to raise the base temp enough so it can be fully terraformed? Or if not, why not use one of its sister moons?
Post by: shadenight123 on July 23, 2011, 05:32:16 am
name it Garibaldi (the battlecruiser) if you can.
(starting to play with italian themed ships and officers XD)
Post by: EuchreJack on July 24, 2011, 01:48:32 am
Keep the war cold folks. At least until we relocate our capital to another star system.
About the infrastructure, couldn't you alter the stats of Titan with the SM a little bit, just enough to raise the base temp enough so it can be fully terraformed? Or if not, why not use one of its sister moons?
The temperature problem with Titan has to do with its distance from the sun. The other moons have similar problems due to being similar distances from the sun. Besides, Titan is acceptable gravity-wise, which may not be the case with other planets. Have to chalk up the Titan infastructure to the limits of SM.
Post by: Ehndras on July 24, 2011, 01:57:50 am
Post by: Felius on July 24, 2011, 11:39:09 am
Keep the war cold folks. At least until we relocate our capital to another star system.
About the infrastructure, couldn't you alter the stats of Titan with the SM a little bit, just enough to raise the base temp enough so it can be fully terraformed? Or if not, why not use one of its sister moons?
The temperature problem with Titan has to do with its distance from the sun. The other moons have similar problems due to being similar distances from the sun. Besides, Titan is acceptable gravity-wise, which may not be the case with other planets. Have to chalk up the Titan infastructure to the limits of SM.
Not really. I've read something about it on the Aurora Forums. The creator reduced the base temperature in titan more than he did on the other moons, to reach the correct final temperature, as, if I remember correctly, as he wasn't aware of how the real titan is more reflective than the game makes it so. This also had the side effect of making Titan impossible to completely terraform, which isn't true for it's sister moons, which all have a slightly higher base temperature.
Post by: Sheb on August 01, 2011, 03:58:50 pm
1st January 1542
The GE Mosul, the first spacecraft to leave Titan since Armageddon depart to survey Saturn and its Moon. May Allah grant us the minerals we'll need to crush the infidels!
21st January
God is Great! Duranium was found on Phoeboe, 20,000 tons of it in rich deposit near the surface, easily accessible.
3rd February
The Mosul found great deposits on Titania. We shall not let the infidels use them, but instead use those against them!
Spoiler: Minerals on Titania (click to show/hide)
19th March
Due to its outstanding scholarship, the ulema Abdul al-Azred was awarded an audience with the Caliph. His staff was greatly motivated and he now say that he can make a breakthrough in information technology that could greatly improve our labs' efficiency. The new technologies should be ready for deployment by mid-june instead of mid-july.
17th of April
The Mosul finish surveying the Outer Planets and will now explore the Oort Clout. May Allah grant us some more minerals.
27th of May
Three Hufhuf class Gunboats are finished. They will stay in orbit as reserve should some of our Carrier- or PDC-based squadron suffer losses.
17th of June
Abdul al-Azred was right. It is estimated that our labs are now 20% more effective. Happy with his success, the Caliph ordered him to pursue his works on information technology. Al-Azred has promised him further advance by February next year.
2nd of July
Shade Night, an Amir-ul-Ashar (Commodore) was put into command of the Garibaldi PDC. He is said to have many political connection and could well become Amir-ul-Jaish (Admiral) one day.
5th of September
I am afraid the infidels will win this war. Already I can see their spies everywhere, I am sure they are counterfeiting our survey report. The Lord wouldn't let us with so few minerals.
7th of November
Their spies are everywhere. They wage a constant war of nerves against me. I must find a way to counter-attack.
31th of December
They have taken control of the Caliph's mind! After I executed half of the High Council for High Treason (how fitting!) the Caliph ordered me executed for murders and conspiracy against the Realm!
May Allah bring reason into his mind and victory into his hands, and may the remaining Councellor make sure he follow His will.
Post by: Sheb on August 01, 2011, 03:59:31 pm
Spoiler: Current Order Of Battle (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Titan (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Technologies (click to show/hide)
Post by: Bremen on August 01, 2011, 04:07:53 pm
Also, those are some awesome mineral deposits on Titania, though we'll probably want to keep an eye out for more Corundium and Neutronium.
Post by: Sheb on August 01, 2011, 04:19:20 pm
Post by: Bremen on August 01, 2011, 05:10:43 pm
Hum. Our variety in scientists are limited, but at least that construction one is very useful. Might as well make the most use of him, and start on construction rate 12/mining rate 12/construction rate 14/mining rate 14 when he finishes research, by my guess we could get the first 3 and most of the fourth in a single year. Might be best to start weapons research after that; it will take awhile to pay off, and besides we'll probably be running a huge budget deficit and reducing the scientist field bonus will help there.
Our remaining scientist should finish jump point theory this turn, at which point I suggest he immediately start work on grav sensors. Our ships are big and we don't have a good power/production scientist, so I recommend we use jump gates instead of drives. Jump gates have an added benefit in that they're much harder to assault through, so if the infidels try to sneak through them later we can ambush them on the far side with gunboats.
For construction, we're good on minerals for now, so I think we want to keep building more factories. Maybe divert a little production for some more deep space tracking stations to keep an eye on what the infidels are doing. Long term expanding the military academy would be nice, but at current production rates it would take a year and a half to build one.
Since we're putting our production and research into economic development right now, we probably want to continue production of our most effective combat craft, the Hufuf, and keep the shipyard busy all year. Eventually we might want another carrier for force projection, but for now we can base all the gunboats we want out of Titan.
No reason to ship mines to Titania yet; there's plenty of minerals still on Titan and that's less that we have to protect. Also means we don't have to divert production for mass drivers.
Once the new Mosul completes we can send it out surveying as well, probably the Oort cloud as well. Since we're trying to outgrow rather than outfight the enemy I think antagonizing them with espionage might be a bad idea.
Post by: Felius on August 01, 2011, 06:28:33 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 02, 2011, 12:05:40 am
Post by: Boksi on August 02, 2011, 12:06:45 am
I reccommend that we develop point-defence to defend ourselves againt missiles(there's a good chance those heathens use them) and try to capitalize on the advantages of gunboats and fighters: They're fast, cheap, numerous and have small signatures. Research reduced thermal signatures and only turn on the targeting sensors when in range of the enemy; possibly look into cloaking for our big ships as well? The honorless heathens deserve nothing better than hashashins.
Furthermore, we'll want small bases at each gas giant. They'd only need to contain maintenance facilities and tracking stations, plus possibly some PDCs, with a garrison of gunboats and possibly other craft. This would allow us to stonewall any heathen sorium-harvesting and expansion into the outer system. We could possibly extend this sytem to the asteroid belt as well.
It's been a while since I last played Aurora so I'm a little rusty on the finer points of stuff like signatures, but I think this advice is sound.
Post by: Azkul on August 02, 2011, 11:51:40 am
Post by: Bremen on August 02, 2011, 12:40:52 pm
I should've caught this LP earlier. Oh well, no big deal.
I reccommend that we develop point-defence to defend ourselves againt missiles(there's a good chance those heathens use them) and try to capitalize on the advantages of gunboats and fighters: They're fast, cheap, numerous and have small signatures. Research reduced thermal signatures and only turn on the targeting sensors when in range of the enemy; possibly look into cloaking for our big ships as well? The honorless heathens deserve nothing better than hashashins.
Furthermore, we'll want small bases at each gas giant. They'd only need to contain maintenance facilities and tracking stations, plus possibly some PDCs, with a garrison of gunboats and possibly other craft. This would allow us to stonewall any heathen sorium-harvesting and expansion into the outer system. We could possibly extend this sytem to the asteroid belt as well.
It's been a while since I last played Aurora so I'm a little rusty on the finer points of stuff like signatures, but I think this advice is sound.
Well, A) We don't actually know if our enemies use missiles, and investing large amounts of research and ship tonnage on what might be a useless weapon is probably not a great idea. I kind of doubt it, actually, simply because a missile armed enemy could have massacred us from the start. B) The best point defense is having your own missiles, and C) as you already mentioned, our best advantage right now is our gunboats, which benefit little from PD but are fast and can get to close range without detection.
Eventually we'll want to expand to the other gas giants, yes, but there's no reason to now and almost no risk the infidels will try to steal anything but Jupiter from us (and Jupiter is much farther from Titan than from Mercury right now). We have all we need on Titan for now, trying to expand would just weaken us. Eventually we'll at least want a mining colony and mass driver on Titania, and could use our engineers to build PDCs on them (probably one to maintain gunboats, and possibly more later with missile launchers)
Post by: Felius on August 02, 2011, 01:51:28 pm
I should've caught this LP earlier. Oh well, no big deal.
I reccommend that we develop point-defence to defend ourselves againt missiles(there's a good chance those heathens use them) and try to capitalize on the advantages of gunboats and fighters: They're fast, cheap, numerous and have small signatures. Research reduced thermal signatures and only turn on the targeting sensors when in range of the enemy; possibly look into cloaking for our big ships as well? The honorless heathens deserve nothing better than hashashins.
Furthermore, we'll want small bases at each gas giant. They'd only need to contain maintenance facilities and tracking stations, plus possibly some PDCs, with a garrison of gunboats and possibly other craft. This would allow us to stonewall any heathen sorium-harvesting and expansion into the outer system. We could possibly extend this sytem to the asteroid belt as well.
It's been a while since I last played Aurora so I'm a little rusty on the finer points of stuff like signatures, but I think this advice is sound.
Well, A) We don't actually know if our enemies use missiles, and investing large amounts of research and ship tonnage on what might be a useless weapon is probably not a great idea. I kind of doubt it, actually, simply because a missile armed enemy could have massacred us from the start. B) The best point defense is having your own missiles, and C) as you already mentioned, our best advantage right now is our gunboats, which benefit little from PD but are fast and can get to close range without detection.
Eventually we'll want to expand to the other gas giants, yes, but there's no reason to now and almost no risk the infidels will try to steal anything but Jupiter from us (and Jupiter is much farther from Titan than from Mercury right now). We have all we need on Titan for now, trying to expand would just weaken us. Eventually we'll at least want a mining colony and mass driver on Titania, and could use our engineers to build PDCs on them (probably one to maintain gunboats, and possibly more later with missile launchers)
This is Aurora. Missiles are in fact the main weapon of the game and mostly everyone, save rare exceptions, uses them. They are likely to either want to keep the war cold too, and/or their missiles are insufficient to make them feel safe for an all out attack. If we want to stay in the Solar System for any decent amount of time we need to get some PD for our planets, both Meson and anti-missile missile based.
Post by: Boksi on August 02, 2011, 02:41:40 pm
Yeah, missiles should always be a part of your strategy, even if it's just countermeasures. Enormous range and high power makes for a deadly weapon.I should've caught this LP earlier. Oh well, no big deal.
I reccommend that we develop point-defence to defend ourselves againt missiles(there's a good chance those heathens use them) and try to capitalize on the advantages of gunboats and fighters: They're fast, cheap, numerous and have small signatures. Research reduced thermal signatures and only turn on the targeting sensors when in range of the enemy; possibly look into cloaking for our big ships as well? The honorless heathens deserve nothing better than hashashins.
Furthermore, we'll want small bases at each gas giant. They'd only need to contain maintenance facilities and tracking stations, plus possibly some PDCs, with a garrison of gunboats and possibly other craft. This would allow us to stonewall any heathen sorium-harvesting and expansion into the outer system. We could possibly extend this sytem to the asteroid belt as well.
It's been a while since I last played Aurora so I'm a little rusty on the finer points of stuff like signatures, but I think this advice is sound.
Well, A) We don't actually know if our enemies use missiles, and investing large amounts of research and ship tonnage on what might be a useless weapon is probably not a great idea. I kind of doubt it, actually, simply because a missile armed enemy could have massacred us from the start. B) The best point defense is having your own missiles, and C) as you already mentioned, our best advantage right now is our gunboats, which benefit little from PD but are fast and can get to close range without detection.
Eventually we'll want to expand to the other gas giants, yes, but there's no reason to now and almost no risk the infidels will try to steal anything but Jupiter from us (and Jupiter is much farther from Titan than from Mercury right now). We have all we need on Titan for now, trying to expand would just weaken us. Eventually we'll at least want a mining colony and mass driver on Titania, and could use our engineers to build PDCs on them (probably one to maintain gunboats, and possibly more later with missile launchers)
This is Aurora. Missiles are in fact the main weapon of the game and mostly everyone, save rare exceptions, uses them. They are likely to either want to keep the war cold too, and/or their missiles are insufficient to make them feel safe for an all out attack. If we want to stay in the Solar System for any decent amount of time we need to get some PD for our planets, both Meson and anti-missile missile based.
If they primarily use missiles, they'll assume we do too. If they use something else, like lasers, they might still assume we mainly use missiles. It's simply too dangerous to assume otherwise. Their PD could be one of the biggest threats to our gunboats, too. Simply looking at our own ship designs, our active resolution-1 sensors have forty times longer range than the meson cannons on our gunboats. However, unless they use meson weapons for their PD as well, their PD won't be very damaging. Our Hufufs can no doubt take a hit or two from them, although lasers might be able to penetrate their armor in a single hit. Hmmmm.
Post by: RedKing on August 02, 2011, 03:08:49 pm
So yeah...investments in detection and AMS is worthwhile.
@Bremen: I would disagree on using jump gates. The main reason being that they're static points, while Titan and Mercury are not. We could find a jump point very close to Titan now, and 15 years from now, it would be on the other side of the solar system from us, more accessible to the infidels than to us. We don't want to give them a free jump gate.
Post by: Felius on August 02, 2011, 03:53:11 pm
Hell, with sufficient missile tech upgrade, we could build mega-missiles with the range to strike from Titan directly to Mercury. Think super-ICBMs.If we use drones as carriers we would be easier, maybe able to do even now, specially if we go huge. Say, we use a size 30-36 for the drone. With about 5-8 spaces to fuel, it should be able to reach mostly any body in the system, and carry about 15-21 worth of missiles. It could work pretty decently as a deterrent.
So yeah...investments in detection and AMS is worthwhile.
Post by: Bremen on August 02, 2011, 04:04:03 pm
That doesn't necessarily mean we should drop everything to develop PD though. As I said, beam PD is pretty lacking and the best missile protection is having your own missiles. Our gunboats are also somewhat less vulnerable to missiles due to their size and speed, as well as their own onboard beam weapons having high tracking speed.
Post by: RedKing on August 02, 2011, 04:13:13 pm
Might be worth revisiting once fuel efficiency is down to 0.5 and we're using plasma engines and larger-yield warheads.
Post by: Felius on August 02, 2011, 04:39:57 pm
Hmm...just re-ran the numbers on doing interplanetary missiles. Gonna take quite a jump in engine power and fuel efficiency to be feasible. Right now, about the largest range I could come up with was about 300 million km, and that was a monster size 150+ missile that was basically a giant fuel tank with a tiny motor and tiny warhead attached. Utterly impractical. To strike from Titan->Mercury, we need a range of around 1 billion km, give or take a couple hundred million depending on degree of apogee.Make it a drone with missile submunitions. Drones have a MUCH better fuel efficiency than missiles. If the distances are truly staggering, we could even try a fighter platform with box launchers as a primary launch platform. With a bit of luck it might even get to be reusable.
Might be worth revisiting once fuel efficiency is down to 0.5 and we're using plasma engines and larger-yield warheads.
Post by: Boksi on August 02, 2011, 05:38:15 pm
Also, gunship w/MIRV drone box launchers = Long ranged, undetectable threat until it's too late and you've got a massive salvo of missiles bearing down on your planet. I propose we work towards this eventually. Let's call them Hashashins because they'll be unseen assassins.
Post by: a1s on August 02, 2011, 05:45:01 pm
Hell, with sufficient missile tech upgrade, we could build mega-missiles with the range to strike from Titan directly to Mercury. Think super-ICBMs.Or build mini-missiles.
So yeah...investments in detection and AMS is worthwhile.
Operation 1000 cuts:
We make them short range (5-10 Mkm, thus some 2-5% of mass) and do 2 points of damage (50-66% mass, depending on tech). We outfit gunboats with lots of small (box, or 100x) size 1 launchers*, then we get close enough to launch them, and send mercury into the stone age (because, come on, no matter what defenses the infidels have, they can't shoot down several hundred missiles). If we manage to do 2-2.5k damage- mercury will pretty much go extinct overnight, but even if it's only 500, their industry will be deceased by 10% basically forever.
The defense against a similar attack from them is a very powerful early detection system (we need to detect 500 ton ships 10Mkm away).
*Think about it: a 1000 ton vessel can carry 50 M100s, so if we rush small launchers and throw most of our yards into building these, we could have a strike-force with over 1k missiles by year 4.
Post by: Bremen on August 02, 2011, 06:00:56 pm
As for a gunboat launch on Mercury, don't forget passive sensors. Our Hufufs have a thermal signature of 63, so even a single deep space tracking station with basic tech would detect them at 15.75 million km. That could be reduced by a low speed approach, but that can only help so much.
Which goes back to what I've been saying; deep space tracking stations are going to be the key to controlling the system. If we can see their fleet on passives, we can have our ships run silent and launch a sneak attack (particularly lethal if we go with missile armed gunboats). With 6 stations, we'd be able to detect one of our freighters in orbit of Mercury, which would be great for determining where the infidels are colonizing and why. With 10-11, we could see the equivalent of our carrier. And those are just offensive uses; imagine the defensive advantages of seeing the enemy coming weeks in advance.
Post by: Daltesh on August 02, 2011, 09:10:52 pm
After writing up a rather extensive ramble on just why we should all do what I say, I decided to condense my suggestions down to the following orders:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Since this is really looking to be a knife fight, and we're unlikely to spend too much time at peace (how boring would that be?) I really don't see the need to research Jump Theory. It's a very long term investment that isn't too big of a deal unless we start running low on minerals. If we're lucky the other side might even build jump gates that we could use.
That said, I'm definitely looking forward to see how this progresses!
Post by: Boksi on August 02, 2011, 09:20:10 pm
There are some reasons for researching jump point theory. First off, Titan is a rather crappy place to live. Secondly, and more importantly, it's far easier to defend a jump point than a colony, especially since our main armament will be mesons which will cripple even heavily armored ships.
Post by: Bremen on August 02, 2011, 10:11:34 pm
And if anything, the holy land is Earth; we have no real reason to want Mercury.
Edit: Lastly, I think that deciding to dedicate us to total war and then not researching weapons is a bad idea.
Post by: Daltesh on August 02, 2011, 11:57:09 pm
Instead I'd propose a strategy of interdiction and fixed defense. The enemy likely has a much higher concentration of resources in the inner system barring SM modifications, and our gunboats are admittedly disposable. We could feasibly send groups of 9 or so hufuf and one mersin to the inner system just to harass any shipping they might have, while still (hopefully) being able to detect and retreat from the enemy fleet should they approach. And as for fixed defense, since we have mesons our PDCs are automatically awesome. We should get more.
...Of course that all assumes open hostilities. I assumed from the back story and tech choice that Sheb would like us to try and get stabby pretty quick. Plus since we're playing against humans it's entirely possible for us to get in over our heads and offer a peace settlement... and then back stab them.
Post by: Boksi on August 03, 2011, 12:23:26 am
Post by: a1s on August 03, 2011, 02:54:56 am
Yeah, we're kind of assuming it's a mutually cold war right now. And you know why it's cold? Because we don't know what the other faction can do and therefore it's quite possible that they can annihilate us, even if we annihilate them as well. Mutually Assured Destruction. The sooner we explore other systems, the sooner we can have a stronghold, a fallback position.That seems to point to 2 things:
a)We need more sensors if we are to know the infidels' actions
b)We need more nukes or it will be a Unilaterally Assured Destruction instead.
Jump points can take a back seat, as long as we keep the Lagrange belt (or whatever it's called in our universe) free of Christians.
P.S. Did we recieve a message from the heathens last turn? I can't seem to find it.
Post by: Bremen on August 03, 2011, 09:36:52 am
Yeah, we're kind of assuming it's a mutually cold war right now. And you know why it's cold? Because we don't know what the other faction can do and therefore it's quite possible that they can annihilate us, even if we annihilate them as well. Mutually Assured Destruction. The sooner we explore other systems, the sooner we can have a stronghold, a fallback position.That seems to point to 2 things:
a)We need more sensors if we are to know the infidels' actions
b)We need more nukes or it will be a Unilaterally Assured Destruction instead.
Jump points can take a back seat, as long as we keep the Lagrange belt (or whatever it's called in our universe) free of Christians.
P.S. Did we recieve a message from the heathens last turn? I can't seem to find it.
No message as far as I can tell, though if they received ours they may send something this turn.
The problem is, we didn't start with any missile tech, or any missile scientists. So developing the tech is a long term goal. Meanwhile we can keep producing Hufufs to ensure we have military forces if attacked.
Even if they beat us to missile armed ships, it will take time to produce and equip them. If they started with missile tech we're probably screwed if they attack us, but we were probably screwed from the beginning; missiles are king in Aurora, and we didn't start with any practical PD. Meanwhile we're building construction factories and developing faster construction with our best scientist, as soon as we develop good missile tech we can begin production of missile and antimissile PDCs at a high rate. Our current strategy isn't to run away with our tail between our legs, but to ensure that when a war does happen we have the advantageous position. As the Sun-Tzu quote goes, "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
Orders:
Space Orders:
When the new Mosul finishes it should join its friend in surveying the Oort Cloud. If an infidel ship approaches Saturn it should be first warned off and then destroyed by Hufufs with sensor support.
Industrial Orders:
Assign 80% of industry to Construction Factories, and 20% to 4 Deep Space Tracking Stations. (This should ensure we finish one during the year)
Research Orders:
Continue current projects. Once Research Rate 280 finishes, research construction rate 12, mining rate 12, construction rate 14, then work on Magazine Ejection system 70% chance, Magazine Feed System Efficiency 75%, Gun-type fission warhead (strength 2), then improved missile drives up to nuclear pulse. If all that finishes, work on Mining Rate 14.
Our other scientist should work on Jump point theory and then gravitational sensors. If he finishes that, Planetary Sensor Strength 300.
Other Orders:
If we finish grav sensors develop a Grav survey version of the Mosul and build one. This will be a military ship, so add engineering spaces as needed.
Post by: MonkeyHead on August 03, 2011, 09:57:10 am
Post by: a1s on August 03, 2011, 10:06:28 am
The problem is, we didn't start with any missile tech, or any missile scientists.Neither did we stat with any Propulsion talent. Suleiman can continue with his pet project if he wants, but he should do his professional duty first- we can build better attack crafts if we have miniaturized components. Failing that, we should allocate the full 35 labs to Al-Azred, and Suleiman can have leftovers to pursue these "jumpgates" of his.
Also seeing as how we are losing 75% (well actually only 37.5%, if you count from the top) of RP when Al-Azred is not researching CP, so he should research the bare minimum towards giving us a prototype missile.
Orders:
Space Orders:
When the new Mosul finishes it should join its friend in surveying the Oort Cloud. If an infidel ship approaches Saturn it should be first warned off and then destroyed by Hufufs with sensor support.
Industrial Orders:
Assign 63% of industry to Construction Factories, and 37% to 4 Deep Space Tracking Stations. (This should ensure we finish two during the year)
Research Orders:
Continue current projects. Once Research Rate 280 finishes, research construction rate 12, mining rate 12, construction rate 14, then work on Gun-type fission warhead (strength 2), then improved missile drives up to nuclear pulse, If all that finishes, work on Mining Rate 14.
Our other scientist should work on small crew quarters, and fuel storage, then work on launchers
Other Orders:
If we finish grav sensors develop a Grav survey version of the Mosul and build one. This will be a military ship, so add engineering spaces as needed.
Post by: Bremen on August 03, 2011, 10:09:21 am
Also, box launchers are a huge RP sink, so I think if we switch to a missile based force gunboats are going to be obsolete for awhile.
Post by: Ehndras on August 03, 2011, 10:14:02 am
What's the point of checking out the Oort Cloud in-game?
Post by: a1s on August 03, 2011, 10:25:35 am
Quote
he Oort cloud is a hypothesized spherical cloud of comets which may lie roughly 50,000 AU, or nearly a light-year, from the Sun.Actually I think it refers to the outer asteroid belt in this case.
Do you really want the game to be over in 5 updates?We won't even have explored 1 extra-solar system by turn 5. And the game will be over quickly if we will neglect defense of the realm.
Also, I'm not sure of the utility of this (it would currently take over a year at 100% production), but if we lack the required specialists, we might want to build an academy and hope for a sensor/propulsion expert?
Post by: Bremen on August 03, 2011, 10:29:51 am
Do you really want the game to be over in 5 updates?We won't even have explored 1 extra-solar system by turn 5. And the game will be over quickly if we will neglect defense of the realm.
That's kind of my point. If we focus on expanding outward while conducting a cold or limited war, the LP will last. If we focus on military buildup, the game will be over within 5 turns when one of us nukes the other.
"Defense of the realm" is a nice concept, but it's not going to happen if we're both in the same system. If a war happens with missile armed ships, one or both planets are going to die.
Post by: MonkeyHead on August 03, 2011, 10:34:17 am
What is an Oort Cloud, anyway? I used to know but for some reason I'm drawing a complete blank. Something gravitational I think. *shrug*
What's the point of checking out the Oort Cloud in-game?
Pluto is considered to be at the innermost point of the Kuiper Belt - a "second" asteroid belt of icy and rocky minor bodies, althugh some like Xena or MakeMake are quite hefty. The Oort cloud is a theoretical spherical "cloud" of ice/rocky bodies, and it is theorized that it is the source of comets. It is thought to extend to about 1LY away from the Sun (thats about 1000 times further away than Pluto), and is pretty much the boundary of what can be considered the solar system.
Point of it? Well, im an Aurora noob, but I assume it has the potential for signifigant resources considering its sheer scale in terms of mass...
Post by: Ehndras on August 03, 2011, 10:35:49 am
Build your infrastructure, secure your surroundings, and THEN go for exploration/expansion.
If we get solid defenses, they can throw the entire god damned world at us to no avail. Then, we can expand.
Btw, make sure we're not susceptible to planetary bombardment via mineral ores... :P
Post by: Bremen on August 03, 2011, 10:47:16 am
I actually agree that the jump tech isn't very useful at this point. We need to focus on defenses and ship production, otherwise we'll be, in a pseudo-historic American setting, try to invade Africa while Russia or Japan invades us from behind. No, that was not an intended pun.
Build your infrastructure, secure your surroundings, and THEN go for exploration/expansion.
If we get solid defenses, they can throw the entire god damned world at us to no avail. Then, we can expand.
Btw, make sure we're not susceptible to planetary bombardment via mineral ores... :P
The only way to defend our infrastructure is to get it to the other side of a jump point. Still, I can tell I've been outvoted. I think I'll sit back and let all those people who complained about me not allowing nations to bombard Earth in my LP see just why I did it. Trying to fight over a planet in Aurora is like a knife fight with grenades. We'll either be nuking Mercury or they'll be nuking Titan.
(and no, you can't bombard a colony via mineral ores)
Post by: Ehndras on August 03, 2011, 10:51:31 am
I do agree that we get the hell away, but first we need to make sure they're not going to nuke our homeworld ANYWAY, and we have nothing left.
Get the tech, fortify, and haul ass.
Post by: Bremen on August 03, 2011, 11:02:05 am
So mass drivers don't bombard planets without MDs anymore? o_O
I do agree that we get the hell away, but first we need to make sure they're not going to nuke our homeworld ANYWAY, and we have nothing left.
Get the tech, fortify, and haul ass.
The game wont let you remove a mass driver with minerals inbound, or send minerals at a planet without the ability to catch them.
This was my plan too, but I think we can spare the 10 research labs for the jump tech. Gets us out sooner, and like I said, it's not like the gunboat tech helps us any. I'm not suggesting we devote everything to exploration. Plus, the tech is already half done; let's beat the other guys there.
And there's always the chance of finding something in another system, like an ideal habitable planet or precursors we can kill and salvage for tech, or even alien ruins.
Post by: Azkul on August 03, 2011, 11:22:09 am
Space Orders:
When the new Mosul finishes it should join its friend in surveying the Oort Cloud. If an infidel ship approaches Saturn it should be first warned off and then destroyed by Hufufs with sensor support.
Industrial Orders:
Assign 63% of industry to Construction Factories, and 37% to 4 Deep Space Tracking Stations. (This should ensure we finish two during the year)
Research Orders:
Continue current projects. Once Research Rate 280 finishes, research construction rate 12, mining rate 12, construction rate 14, then work on Gun-type fission warhead (strength 2), then improved missile drives up to nuclear pulse, If all that finishes, work on Mining Rate 14.
Our other scientist should work on Jump point theory and then gravitational sensors.
Other Orders:
If we finish grav sensors develop a Grav survey version of the Mosul and build one. This will be a military ship, so add engineering spaces as needed.
Although researching jump point theory may not be the most practical approach, the LP will be incredibly boring without extra-solar warfare.
Post by: Sheb on August 03, 2011, 11:37:02 am
Post by: a1s on August 03, 2011, 11:40:46 am
1) while we can do without magazines for a while, missiles are no good to us without launchers and sensors. It can be Al-Azred, but someone has to do it. (in fact since we'll need to build ships/PDCs to use missiles, launchers and sensors should probably come before warheads)
2) Al-Azred is a better scientist with a 25% bonus (Vs. 20% for Suleiman), it is detrimental to our scientific advance to keep him below capacity- just give him more projects (such as all of the weapon techs, like you did there).
and
3) What's the policy on coloring? ??? Should we only color the most recent change or keep the colors from all of the orders? (That can get a bit dazzling)
Post by: Ehndras on August 03, 2011, 11:41:09 am
Thats... Actually a really awesome idea. :) Makes for better tactical combat and more strategy, rather than a fire-from-long-range-and-flee tactics.
I wish I could make the NPCs not build missiles in my single player games...
Post by: a1s on August 03, 2011, 11:53:38 am
Post by: Bremen on August 03, 2011, 11:58:56 am
Assuming that happens, I agree on backing off on jump gate tech. NPCs wouldn't respect the ban, and either an NPR or precursors would murder our military if they didn't have missiles at this tech level.
How does that make for tactical combat? You just come to close range and pound at each other until you get lucky, with better tech giving a statistical advantage. Also whoever is faster can always evade/force combat (which again boils down to scientific superiority- no tactics).
That would be somewhat true for just beam armed ships, but there's still gunboats and fighters. We already have a start on gunboats, so we could focus on them (Guessing the Mercurians have fighters, probably, in which case they are faster but we have the advantage of range and not needing hangars for planetary based defenses).
Post by: Azkul on August 03, 2011, 12:02:26 pm
Post by: a1s on August 03, 2011, 12:12:14 pm
I am opposed to banning missiles, they are an integral part of the combat in Aurora and help keep things interesting.We could make the missiles more expensive (Sheb can destroy 1/2 or 3/4 of the missiles produced as though they cost double/4x. I don't remember if this gives minerals back, but it does consume wealth and time irreversibly). Or force 1 launcher per size per 200/500/1000 mass (so you can't spam macros missile massacres).
Post by: Sheb on August 03, 2011, 12:31:12 pm
Also, In case of missile ban, I'm going to let you spend any RP you invested on missile tech on any tech of your liking, so don't be afraid of researching them.
Post by: Bremen on August 03, 2011, 12:57:24 pm
I was also thinking of only allowing "bombs", or range 0 missiles, so you can still nuke the Mercurians. I'm not decided yet however, so please continue discussing the pro and cons, it helps me make up my mind.
Also, In case of missile ban, I'm going to let you spend any RP you invested on missile tech on any tech of your liking, so don't be afraid of researching them.
Ah. I actually saw the lack of bombardment as an advantage, but I think these LPs have shown I prefer a more skirmish type war than all or nothing blitzes. Of course, meson armed PDCs could help protect a planet by preventing ships from getting in range to launch their range 0 bombs.
I see two main problems with a lack of missiles:
a) Range is absolute. If outranged in a missile fight, you can maneuver to change the "effective" range (missiles can effectively fire farther at enemies in pursuit, for example), shoot down incoming missiles, or just wait for your opponent to run out of ammo. Against beam weapons none of these work; if the enemy beam weapons outrange you and they are at least as fast as you, you lose; you can never close the range and they'll gradually plink you down. Somewhat mitigated by fighters and gunboats, but not completely.
b) Almost impossible to deal with NPRs/precursors. Only a problem if we're going to eventually expand out of the system, but a strong block on that unless you want to just disable all opposition. Consider that precursors and NPRs can transit into the solar system and attack us. Star Swarm would still be workable, since they don't use missiles (though they'd be somewhat harder to handle without our own).
Of course, there are also the obvious advantages, like making a scenario where both sides wipe each other out much less likely.
Post by: Daltesh on August 03, 2011, 01:33:36 pm
With this in mind my opinion is rather split. If Sheb turned off NPR generation in the game's start I would support jump technology after we have ion engines, but NPRs are on then the risks outweigh the benefits It would take quite a lot of luck to find a nice, close, habitable planet, but that same luck could backfire if it was inhabited by alien infidels that proceed to destroy us.
That said, only using beams open up some interesting tactics that should be probably be addressed. Carriers can make very good escorts, and freighters are very vulnerable against an enemy with unlimited ammo, so should we send all our transports in large bulk convoys with carrier escorts, or would that reduce the protection of Titan too much? And we might want to look into what sort of weapon technology we want for the long term. Mesons can be very useful, but if we overuse them the enemy is bound to catch on and make lighter armored ships with reinforced components, which would drastically reduce the effectiveness of our main fleet, but more importantly that of our PDCs. Splitting tech on weaponry might be a pain but the flexibility it provides could be useful, and as such I recommend we keep a mind towards switching our space assets over to lasers or corronades, perhaps even railguns if we get a ballistic scientist.
Post by: a1s on August 03, 2011, 02:06:15 pm
Ok, new idea for a missile handicap: how about if you are not allowed to spend more than 1% on fuel?
Post by: Daltesh on August 03, 2011, 02:09:44 pm
Edit:
Oh yeah, or geosensors. That would be much better.
Post by: Boksi on August 03, 2011, 02:14:39 pm
Lasers: Long range
Meson Cannons: Skip shields and armor
Plasma Carronades: High damage
Particle Beams: No damage attenuation
Railguns: Multiple shots
Gauss Guns: Multiple 1-damage shots, can be made smaller for less accuracy
Lasers have the longest range, but particle beams are also pretty long-ranged and don't suffer damage attenuation like lasers, so they'll do full damage at maximum range.
Post by: Sheb on August 03, 2011, 02:16:21 pm
Post by: Bremen on August 03, 2011, 02:18:55 pm
Oh, definitely lasers. whether we'll be faster or slower than the heathens (in the missile-less game), we'll want to outrange them.
Ok, new idea for a missile handicap: how about if you are not allowed to spend more than 1% on fuel?
Well, even with 1% fuel missiles greatly outrange beam weapons, and they'll be very capable otherwise with all the weight for engines and warhead.
Well, let's go over the various benefits of various weapons:
Lasers: Long range
Meson Cannons: Skip shields and armor
Plasma Carronades: High damage
Particle Beams: No damage attenuation
Railguns: Multiple shots
Gauss Guns: Multiple 1-damage shots, can be made smaller for less accuracy
Lasers have the longest range, but particle beams are also pretty long-ranged and don't suffer damage attenuation like lasers, so they'll do full damage at maximum range.
Particle beams also have the same range regardless of size, which opens the possibility of sniper FACs/fighters (Large size lasers have longer range than equal tech particle beams, but small lasers have shorter range).
Post by: a1s on August 03, 2011, 02:37:20 pm
Well, let's go over the various benefits of various weapons:
Lasers: Long range
Meson Cannons: Skip shields and armor
Plasma Carronades: High damage
Particle Beams: No damage attenuation
Railguns: Multiple shots
Gauss Guns: Multiple 1-damage shots, can be made smaller for less accuracy
Lasers have the longest range, but particle beams are also pretty long-ranged and don't suffer damage attenuation like lasers, so they'll do full damage at maximum range.
Spoiler: longer range+at least equal speed=win (click to show/hide)
That's the idea- they would outrange lasers by 10 times (less so with more tech- missile range grows linearly and laser's grows quadraticaly), but they would be finite( and expensive), while the laser is not. It's a very nice trade off. you can make that 0.25% instead (to outrange lasers 2-3 times, and potentially, with a better laser not at all)Oh, definitely lasers. whether we'll be faster or slower than the heathens (in the missile-less game), we'll want to outrange them.
Ok, new idea for a missile handicap: how about if you are not allowed to spend more than 1% on fuel?
Well, even with 1% fuel missiles greatly outrange beam weapons, and they'll be very capable otherwise with all the weight for engines and warhead.
Post by: Daltesh on August 03, 2011, 02:48:35 pm
Post by: Boksi on August 03, 2011, 02:56:38 pm
You forget to include stealth and ECM in your tactics, something we'll definitely want to use for meson gunboats. Long range is useless if you can't detect someone.Well, let's go over the various benefits of various weapons:
Lasers: Long range
Meson Cannons: Skip shields and armor
Plasma Carronades: High damage
Particle Beams: No damage attenuation
Railguns: Multiple shots
Gauss Guns: Multiple 1-damage shots, can be made smaller for less accuracy
Lasers have the longest range, but particle beams are also pretty long-ranged and don't suffer damage attenuation like lasers, so they'll do full damage at maximum range.Spoiler: longer range+at least equal speed=win (click to show/hide)
Also, even low-level shields would allow a ship to shrug off a few 1-strength hits, and unless you have a mammoth fire control you won't be getting in more than a few hits at that range. And if they use fast ships with enormous fire controls? Then we swarm them with gunboats. Planets are stationary targets and they'll either have to close the range(to attack one) or stay put(to defend one).
Post by: Bremen on August 03, 2011, 03:03:02 pm
If missiles aren't a danger, railguns and gauss cannons are pretty much right out. Even against fighters, you need to hit them with enough damage for a kill, and the gauss/railgun multiple rounds is problematic for that. They also have low range.
If missiles are just heavily nerfed (by say, 50% tonnage wasted) I don't think we should use them. That means double cost, half damage, half accuracy (so, 25% damage), half range, half speed (so PD is doubly effective). They're not useless, and we'd still want to account for them though.
I think overall, I'd say either Laser if we go for a battlefleet style, or continue with Mesons if we go for a gunboat based fleet.
Post by: Daltesh on August 03, 2011, 03:25:44 pm
I also have a question for Sheb. How many engineering bays does it have? I don't have the game in front of me so I can't check, but 700% seems like a high failure rate for a 14KT ship.
Post by: Sheb on August 03, 2011, 03:29:40 pm
Post by: a1s on August 03, 2011, 03:34:06 pm
You forget to include stealth and ECM in your tactics, something we'll definitely want to use for meson gunboats. Long range is useless if you can't detect someone.ECM can shave some 20-30% off the range (which is double the normal one for lasers), and stealth is balanced to allow stealthy launch of missiles, not for attacking up close.
Also, even low-level shields would allow a ship to shrug off a few 1-strength hits, and unless you have a mammoth fire control you won't be getting in more than a few hits at that range. And if they use fast ships with enormous fire controls? Then we swarm them with gunboats. Planets are stationary targets and they'll either have to close the range(to attack one) or stay put(to defend one).
The hits will not be strength one, but rather 1/3-1/2 of maximum, since you only need to hold your enemy more than half of the laser's range away.
And Turtling at a planet will mean that the enemy will first outmine us, then outgrow and finally completely outproduce (with both more labor and more resources).
Post by: Bremen on August 03, 2011, 04:29:57 pm
You forget to include stealth and ECM in your tactics, something we'll definitely want to use for meson gunboats. Long range is useless if you can't detect someone.ECM can shave some 20-30% off the range (which is double the normal one for lasers), and stealth is balanced to allow stealthy launch of missiles, not for attacking up close.
Also, even low-level shields would allow a ship to shrug off a few 1-strength hits, and unless you have a mammoth fire control you won't be getting in more than a few hits at that range. And if they use fast ships with enormous fire controls? Then we swarm them with gunboats. Planets are stationary targets and they'll either have to close the range(to attack one) or stay put(to defend one).
The hits will not be strength one, but rather 1/3-1/2 of maximum, since you only need to hold your enemy more than half of the laser's range away.
And Turtling at a planet will mean that the enemy will first outmine us, then outgrow and finally completely outproduce (with both more labor and more resources).
Do lasers double the fire control range? I've never heard of that before.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on August 03, 2011, 04:47:13 pm
You forget to include stealth and ECM in your tactics, something we'll definitely want to use for meson gunboats. Long range is useless if you can't detect someone.ECM can shave some 20-30% off the range (which is double the normal one for lasers), and stealth is balanced to allow stealthy launch of missiles, not for attacking up close.
Also, even low-level shields would allow a ship to shrug off a few 1-strength hits, and unless you have a mammoth fire control you won't be getting in more than a few hits at that range. And if they use fast ships with enormous fire controls? Then we swarm them with gunboats. Planets are stationary targets and they'll either have to close the range(to attack one) or stay put(to defend one).
The hits will not be strength one, but rather 1/3-1/2 of maximum, since you only need to hold your enemy more than half of the laser's range away.
And Turtling at a planet will mean that the enemy will first outmine us, then outgrow and finally completely outproduce (with both more labor and more resources).
Do lasers double the fire control range? I've never heard of that before.
Because lasers don't double the fire control range. From what I can recall, the two are independent of each other.
Post by: a1s on August 04, 2011, 12:56:35 am
Do lasers double the fire control range? I've never heard of that before.
Because lasers don't double the fire control range. From what I can recall, the two are independent of each other.
[/quote]
You are right. My bad.
Post by: Bremen on August 04, 2011, 01:04:28 am
Habitable planets have atmospheres. Uninhabited ones usually don't, and PDCs get bonuses to fire control range; a PDC with heavy laser weaponry on a mining colony could be brutal.
Post by: Sheb on August 04, 2011, 01:40:35 am
Post by: Bremen on August 04, 2011, 02:09:26 am
Putting a PDC on a moon can also block any ship from approaching the planet.
That's true, on Earth. Unfortunately not only is Titan already a moon, it orbits at 1.2 million km, which is long range for even endgame lasers. Any other moon in the Saturn local area could be millions of km away and out of laser range when we needed it.
Edit: On the other hand, even if we defended Titan with meson bases, our orbital shipyards could be blown up from out of meson range. So there's no perfect solutions.
Some possibilities:
(If we use lasers)
Put Laser PDCs on another moon and hope it's in range when needed (I believe PDCs are undetectable until they fire or use active sensors, so we could even hope for a sucker punch if they fly past the moon without knowing it had PDCs on it).
Comedy option: Put laser bases on all the moons. They have to come into range of some of them.
Missile Armed PDCs on Titan. Might well be worth the expense and inefficiency, but would mean developing missile tech in addition to lasers.
Orbital defense base: Could use lasers from Titan orbit, but lacks the PDC benefits (stealth, no maintenance, longer range, free armor)
Mobile fleet: Just duke it out without support from defenses and hope our fleet wins
(if we go Mesons)
Meson PDCs, and hope they don't have range to blow up the shipyards
Lots and lots of gunboats.
So, basically, I think with mesons we could defend Titan better, but lasers would be nice for defending our mining colonies. I'm actually starting to lean towards lasers and a battlefleet strategy.
Post by: a1s on August 04, 2011, 02:22:48 am
Post by: Daltesh on August 04, 2011, 02:35:53 am
But despite that, I still think we should invest a bit of research into construction, but not mining. We have twice as many mines as construction factories and we have a backlog of minerals, so there's no real hurry. Instead I still say we should do gas powered reactor and ion engine research with our lead scientist. Researching gas reactors and ion engines would, according to my calculations, take just over a year. And it would give a hefty 50% bonus to speed for any vessal equipped with it, or let us have 50% less engines on a ship to let us use the tonnage for other things while retaining the same speed. It's really quite a hefty advantage and still relatively cheap at this level.
Engines can boost our armor, they can boost our weapon, and they can boost our economy. Speed makes us harder to hit, makes it easier for us to close range and hit our enemy, and lets our freighters actually transport stuff without taking a year for a round trip.
Post by: Sheb on August 04, 2011, 03:17:09 am
Post by: Bremen on August 04, 2011, 12:43:37 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 04, 2011, 12:45:19 pm
Post by: Daltesh on August 04, 2011, 01:00:12 pm
If it weren't for the pitiful to-hit chance, I'd love to see slow and heavily armored missiles.. Maybe we'll get MIRV drones at least.
AMMs and will require 50% geosensors as well? And MIRVs will need 50% in both the main body and the sub-munitions? And if it's not too much trouble to ask, have you figured out the engineering on the carriers yet? 700% annual seems high.. Sorry if it looks like I'm trying to cause problems, just trying to figure out how things will work.
Post by: Sheb on August 04, 2011, 01:08:17 pm
Post by: Daltesh on August 04, 2011, 01:17:05 pm
Post by: Bremen on August 04, 2011, 01:29:40 pm
If a MIRV is, say, size 20 with 5 weight in submunitions, that would give it a total of 12.5 tons of geosensors. This would make me recommend against MIRVs personally, they're cool but they'd be horribly inefficient in a game where victory might be won with a handful of ships. As for AMMs, you could just say that they are specifically designed to track and destroy missiles, and as such their blasts are ineffective against actual ships. Then just disallow anyone from firing them at non-missile targets.
I assumed that the MIRV body wouldn't have to have geosensors for the payload.
I favor imposing the same limitation for AMM as for normal missiles; this will actually maintain the effectiveness for AMMs at the same rate they have in the base game. Though I think that nerf makes missiles essentially useless; they'd probably end up costing more than the ships they could destroy, so I suggest we don't pursue the tech.
Post by: Azkul on August 04, 2011, 01:47:15 pm
15% is a better number.
Post by: Bremen on August 04, 2011, 01:52:34 pm
If a mild nerf is wanted, my suggestion would be matching warhead weight with geosensor. This makes all missiles effectively do half damage, but be otherwise the same.
Post by: Azkul on August 04, 2011, 01:59:47 pm
*commitment
Post by: Daltesh on August 04, 2011, 02:13:04 pm
I don't support it because I think Aurora shouldn't have missiles. I support it because I think this scenario should have far less missile involvement to make it more interesting and less 'And then mercury/titan was destroyed by ten thousand size-1 missiles and the game effectively ended.' You can fit a lot of size 1 box launchers on a 15KT ship.
Post by: Azkul on August 04, 2011, 02:18:10 pm
Post by: Daltesh on August 04, 2011, 02:31:28 pm
I do think that somehow reducing the tech costs would be a fair balance though. Or at least offer both sides some basic missile technology to get us off the ground.
Post by: a1s on August 04, 2011, 03:10:11 pm
'And then mercury/titan was destroyed by ten thousand size-1 missiles and the game effectively ended.' You can fit a lot of size 1 box launchers on a 15KT ship.As much as I'd like to dream of sneak attacking the Heathens with NUKLA BOMBS, it's actually never going to happen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_deterrent). The nerf is mostly to improve the viability of "beam" weapons.
To that end we should send a Diplomatic team, and establish an embassy. We must also
a)tell them (duh- they'll shoot us out of the sky otherwise).
b) send several espionage teams with our diplomatic team.
c)This is a task for Sheb, because we don't have the data on hand: set the speed* of our ambassadorial vessel such that it would intersect the orbit of either Earth or Mars when the planet is there. Drop 1 of the spy teams on it.
Also, I would like to express extreme dissatisfaction with how MIRV is handled, if it puts ballast at 75%.
Post by: MonkeyHead on August 04, 2011, 03:15:08 pm
Quote
c)This is a task for Sheb, because we don't have the data on hand: set the speed* of our ambassadorial vessel such that it would intersect the orbit of either Earth or Mars when the planet is there. Drop 1 of the spy teams on it.
I really like this idea... why not both? or the moon? Possibly a silly noob question, but how easy would it be to sneak some kind of big gun base onto any of the 3, preferably the moon?
Post by: a1s on August 04, 2011, 03:17:56 pm
Very. You'd need a freighter, and those are about as noticeable as a phosphorescent cat in a well lit room.Quotec)This is a task for Sheb, because we don't have the data on hand: set the speed* of our ambassadorial vessel such that it would intersect the orbit of either Earth or Mars when the planet is there. Drop 1 of the spy teams on it.
I really like this idea... why not both? or the moon? Possibly a silly noob question, but how easy would it be to sneak some kind of big gun base onto any of the 3, preferably the moon?
Post by: Daltesh on August 04, 2011, 03:19:25 pm
I would honestly like this LP to involve multiple skirmishes over a few years escalating into a series of wars that end with invaders coming and destroying everything, but they're turned off so we won't have that.
That said, I am wholly against establishing any lasting peace until the heathens are nothing but a memory, and slowly expanding radioactive vapor.
Post by: a1s on August 04, 2011, 03:39:02 pm
It might be hard to drop a base on the moon, but we could send a "slow boat" (single-engine freighter set to have a thermal signature of, like 50 or whatever is reasonable) to one of the asteroids with some sensor equipment (DSTS has no electronic signature, and, if I'm not mistaken 5 heat signature points per level- they'll never find it.). That will give us a good idea of what's going on in the system core.
Post by: Felius on August 04, 2011, 03:41:36 pm
Considering how many trips it might take, I'd say it's more like a bright lamp in a otherwise dark room. That said, I guess it might be possible if we did obscene stealth and emission reduction research.Very. You'd need a freighter, and those are about as noticeable as a phosphorescent cat in a well lit room.Quotec)This is a task for Sheb, because we don't have the data on hand: set the speed* of our ambassadorial vessel such that it would intersect the orbit of either Earth or Mars when the planet is there. Drop 1 of the spy teams on it.
I really like this idea... why not both? or the moon? Possibly a silly noob question, but how easy would it be to sneak some kind of big gun base onto any of the 3, preferably the moon?
Post by: Daltesh on August 04, 2011, 05:24:43 pm
Wait, so you're against a proper war, but you're also against peace? Make up your mind for Muhamed's sake! ::)
I'm against total war right now because we don't have any clear way to reach ultimate victory with the forces we have. We have a single troop carrier, so there's no way we could actually occupy Mercury even if we did manage to defeat their navy with whatever forces we have.
I have the habit of typing out long spiels and then deleting them to try and be more concise, so sometimes I forget to mention something which I meant to; but I'll try and clarify on this point. If it weren't for the fact that people voted for a cold war, I would fully support using our Gunboats for commerce interdiction. They're hard to spot and can likely outrun any enemy naval forces that come into contact with them. Especially if I got the engine upgrades I want! Basically I'm a fan of limited warfare and skirmishes devoted to their theater without dragging the entire solar system into it. We shouldn't charge at mercury the first time they send a naval detachment to Jupiter, and I hope they wouldn't do the same should we trespass into the inner system.
Of course I could totally be wrong, I'm just trying to see that this game turns out fun. :P And really, mysterious PDCs that might be able to shoot giant lasers at us scares me. For all I know they could out range us by a gigantic margin and be able to blast our fleets apart while we try and close.
Post by: a1s on August 04, 2011, 05:46:29 pm
I would fully support using our Gunboats for commerce interdiction. They're hard to spot and can likely outrun any enemy naval forces that come into contact with them.Interdiction might be seen as direct provocation, but we could maybe send a probe (small ship, big (biggest one we have, not any new ad hoc model) sensor, no weapons) and find out what their specialty is? (they might have fighters instead of gunboats, in which case we won't outrun anyone)
That said, how hard would it be to establish a small base (maintenance+fuel supplies) for our gunships in the asteroid belt? It would protect that listening post from a few asteroids away and we'd have a mobile reserve on the Infidel doorstep.
Post by: Daltesh on August 04, 2011, 06:22:32 pm
At first I was going to complain about an asteroid belt eventually having the inner system between us and it due to our orbit, but it seems Saturn has an orbital period of thirty years.. So it would eventually become a problem, but it wouldn't be an immediate one by any means.
If my warmongering is getting annoying, well remember, the majority rules so you guys can just ignore me. But I don't want to see this turn into a really long game of 'build up a lot and never fight' considering the backstory we were given. They invaded our forefathers! They stole Allah's gift and subverted it for their corrupt purposes! They nearly wiped out humanity. No, I do not think we should be chummy with them, or even contemplate peace. The Mercurians are a blight upon the universe and they must be cleansed.. Once we have a way to actually cleanse them, that is. We might want to build more ground troops, if we spend all our time on engineers they might have twice as many assaults as we do and that would be Bad considering how this seems set up.
But if I'm actually annoying you guys I'm sorry. I really did sign up for this thread so I'm not quite sure what level of etiquette and decorum is called for. That's what not lurking enough gets me. :P
That said, Go space Muslims.
Post by: a1s on August 04, 2011, 07:16:02 pm
Spoiler: orders (click to show/hide)
Post by: Bremen on August 04, 2011, 07:43:05 pm
Yes, it would be a direct provocation. And they would be able to fly their entire fleet to Titan to fight what we have of our defense fleet plus our PDCs, while leaving their home open for our interdiction units to probe, or they could split their forces to protect their home and attack us which would let us most likely destroy the attacking forces and recover plenty of salvage.
At first I was going to complain about an asteroid belt eventually having the inner system between us and it due to our orbit, but it seems Saturn has an orbital period of thirty years.. So it would eventually become a problem, but it wouldn't be an immediate one by any means.
If my warmongering is getting annoying, well remember, the majority rules so you guys can just ignore me. But I don't want to see this turn into a really long game of 'build up a lot and never fight' considering the backstory we were given. They invaded our forefathers! They stole Allah's gift and subverted it for their corrupt purposes! They nearly wiped out humanity. No, I do not think we should be chummy with them, or even contemplate peace. The Mercurians are a blight upon the universe and they must be cleansed.. Once we have a way to actually cleanse them, that is. We might want to build more ground troops, if we spend all our time on engineers they might have twice as many assaults as we do and that would be Bad considering how this seems set up.
But if I'm actually annoying you guys I'm sorry. I really did sign up for this thread so I'm not quite sure what level of etiquette and decorum is called for. That's what not lurking enough gets me. :P
That said, Go space Muslims.
The problem with that is attacking Mercury is also the end of the LP, for better or worse. Like I kept trying to say in my LP, there is a middle ground between universal peace and smiles and a direct assault on a homeworld.
As for what to interdict, as was pointed out all the survey points are beyond the asteroid belt. We could try to contain them in the Solar system while we expand; Plus, once we have an offworld colony the threat of nuclear retaliation wouldn't stop us anymore. Unfortunately, this is why I'm not in favor of the huge missile nerf; it's now too hazardous to expand out of the system. Our only limited war policy now is to try to harass commercial shipping and mining colonies once they start.
Edit: Also, I don't think we need more ground troops. Titan or Mercury are going to be targets for bombardment, not slow invasions. The troops we have will be more useful for seizing mining colonies.
Post by: Daltesh on August 04, 2011, 08:51:29 pm
I imagine this LP will eventually end, and I think it would be cool if it had a lot of fun explosions and ended with a bang (either on Mercury or Titan) instead of being foiled by technical difficulties or something. Perhaps I'm just getting the wrong impression, the whole 'Jihad in Space' aspect really makes me think Sheb was wanting us to try and blow up the other guys at some point.
Post by: Felius on August 04, 2011, 08:53:55 pm
I think that interdiction would be amusing because it could start small scale battles where not a whole lot is on the line so neither side would have to commit their entire navies. The lack of missiles would allow people to try and get away since detection ranges would be vastly better than engagement ranges, especially considering DSTS sensors.
I imagine this LP will eventually end, and I think it would be cool if it had a lot of fun explosions and ended with a bang (either on Mercury or Titan) instead of being foiled by technical difficulties or something. Perhaps I'm just getting the wrong impression, the whole 'Jihad in Space' aspect really makes me think Sheb was wanting us to try and blow up the other guys at some point.
It might be interesting, but not until we establish some decent defenses, or even better, relocate to another star system. Too risky to actually proceed with any kind of conflict while our planet is pretty much defenseless.
Post by: Daltesh on August 04, 2011, 09:08:05 pm
Post by: a1s on August 04, 2011, 09:14:38 pm
(meta: if this game will have 1 turn/week, I really want to see more action, or I'll die of boredom)
Post by: Daltesh on August 04, 2011, 09:25:07 pm
Basically is we don't- they will. And it's always batter to wage war on the other guy's soil. Besides, even if our PDF is outdated, if the we have to, we'll still have most of our fleet+PDFs to defend Titan, while heathen will only bring their ships.
If the enemy uses a size 12 meson cannon instead of size 10, our PDCs will be more or less entirely useless. Just saying.
Post by: a1s on August 04, 2011, 09:33:15 pm
If the enemy uses a size 12 meson cannon instead of size 10, our PDCs will be more or less entirely useless. Just saying.Allah willing they reached the same conclusions we did, and will research lasers instead. Meaning they'll have to get very close to drop those bombs on us, or go away without dealing any lasting damage.
P.S. do bombs (0% fuel, 0% engine, all warhead) have to have 50% geosensors too?
Post by: Bremen on August 04, 2011, 09:59:53 pm
We develop jump tech, survey for jump points, and then send scouts into the jump points closer to Mercury than Titan. If we find precursors or an NPR race, we try to lure their ships back into the Sol system :P.
Then we hope they run out of missiles destroying Mercury and don't have enough to deal with Titan.
If the enemy uses a size 12 meson cannon instead of size 10, our PDCs will be more or less entirely useless. Just saying.Allah willing they reached the same conclusions we did, and will research lasers instead. Meaning they'll have to get very close to drop those bombs on us, or go away without dealing any lasting damage.
P.S. do bombs (0% fuel, 0% engine, all warhead) have to have 50% geosensors too?
I think PDCs are invisible until they turn on active sensors/fire, in which case outdated PDCs are not completely useless, since they can always get at least one shot off against troop transports/bombs/enemy ships. Unfortunately, our shipyards can still be destroyed from maximum weapons range, and that's an effective loss for us; even if they just blow up the shipyards and leave we'd never be in a position to menace them again.
Post by: a1s on August 04, 2011, 10:34:22 pm
Post by: tompliss on August 05, 2011, 01:58:08 am
I'm saying 'Let's research some better engines!' followed closely by 'Let's poke them in the head for a bit.'I haven't participated in this thread so far, but a litle idea :
What if we poke em with some ships, and bo back, laying mines (and possibly little thermal buoys) on the way ?
It could prevent them from coming (fearing more mines), and still give a little knowledge about them...
Even better, if this destroy some of their ship, we could scavenge them easily !
Post by: Sheb on August 05, 2011, 01:58:58 am
Post by: Boksi on August 05, 2011, 02:31:40 am
I like your idea. We could slap a couple of box launcher loaded with mines on our FAC. Do a probing attack, launching mines when retreating, giving any pursuers a nasty surprise. Or we could lay minefields in dickish positions, just to mess with them. Imagine surveying some asteroids when suddenly your survey ship gets blown to bits.I'm saying 'Let's research some better engines!' followed closely by 'Let's poke them in the head for a bit.'I haven't participated in this thread so far, but a litle idea :
What if we poke em with some ships, and bo back, laying mines (and possibly little thermal buoys) on the way ?
It could prevent them from coming (fearing more mines), and still give a little knowledge about them...
Even better, if this destroy some of their ship, we could scavenge them easily !
The only problem I think is the limited lifetime of buoys, but seeing as that is measured in months I don't think that's going to be a problem.
Post by: Daltesh on August 05, 2011, 02:53:58 am
I think our gunboats could act better in a sort of dive bomber role. They can't really survive a prolonged engagement, but ideally we could fit them with enough beam weapons (maybe even reduced size ones) to let us run in, punch the enemy in the nose, and then run away. Mesons might not be best for that, because unless we get lucky and make an explosion, all we'd be doing is maybe slowing them down for a while and whittling down their maint supplies while they do damage control. Where as with railguns or lasers or the like, we could just sandpaper their armor off.
Post by: MonkeyHead on August 05, 2011, 03:09:34 am
Post by: tompliss on August 05, 2011, 03:40:55 am
That's a neat idea, but the problem with that is that people actually can detect mines.With little size, and maybe some ECM, couldn't they be treated like little missile, that don't get detected until it's too late ?
I mean, if a salvo of 10 little missile can get through their CWIS (eg), shouldn't a cloud of 20 mines make some real damage ?
(haven't played for a while, and didn't use mines...)
How about real life espionage?How about you get banned ?
Post by: MonkeyHead on August 05, 2011, 03:46:03 am
How about real life espionage?How about you get banned ?
harsh!
Post by: Daltesh on August 05, 2011, 04:03:28 am
With little size, and maybe some ECM, couldn't they be treated like little missile, that don't get detected until it's too late ?I suppose if we used small enough buoys they could detect the enemy and deploy their sub-munitions before being detected themselves.. Yeah, I take it back, being detected isn't a very big factor for mines.
I mean, if a salvo of 10 little missile can get through their CWIS (eg), shouldn't a cloud of 20 mines make some real damage ?
(haven't played for a while, and didn't use mines...)
If we had box launchers it could be an interesting fall back strategy. Put perhaps one or two on every gunboat just to fill out the space, maybe even not bothering to put fire controls on them, and just have the gunboats unload their mines if they need to disengage. IIRC it would play hell with the enemies fire control systems if it's a ton of small groups of missiles rather than a few large ones. And it would certainly discourage them from trying to follow. But as it stands, I don't think they're very applicable to our current situation.
As a sidenote I haven't bothered to play with mines before, but even without fire controls the 'Msl Launch' command in the Task Groups window should work. Aside from that I'm really just guessing on their effectiveness.
Post by: a1s on August 05, 2011, 04:32:23 am
Post by: a1s on August 05, 2011, 05:24:58 am
Could an effort be made to find this "other forum" and the counterpart thread?Go for it. I think it would be fun to see both sides (with all the paranoia of 2 nuclear powers without diplomacy, it might just be hilarious). And a great exercise for your googling muscle. But you can't post in this thread. BTW when this game ends, we'll want the link to that other forum, so we can all share in the lulz.
Post by: tompliss on August 05, 2011, 06:15:31 am
An AAR would be nice, but I don't think revealling the other forum is such a good idea :
Another game could be nice, a still having the paranoïa aspect of the game could be nice ^^
Post by: MonkeyHead on August 05, 2011, 06:21:16 am
Post by: a1s on August 05, 2011, 07:19:47 am
Post by: tompliss on August 05, 2011, 07:46:30 am
I know it'(s in french because I actually read the thread.
Take your time digesting all that information, the first turn won't be run until Friday, as I still need to post on the other forum (And I can't copy/paste anything cause it must be in French). Please point any mistake of mine and feel free to ask questions.
By the way : there are 2 's' in TomPliss
Post by: Bremen on August 05, 2011, 11:31:04 am
Besides, the obvious use or mines would be to use gunboats to secretly lay a minefield in Mercury's orbital path, then wait and snicker.
Post by: MonkeyHead on August 05, 2011, 12:01:50 pm
Mines are no more efficient than missiles, less in fact. The only reason to use them instead is a long duration minefield.
Besides, the obvious use or mines would be to use gunboats to secretly lay a minefield in Mercury's orbital path, then wait and snicker.
Another idea I highly approve of, but I am very dubious how easy this would be to pull off undetected. Possibly useful as a precursor to some final assault where detection wouldnt matter (and possibly be beneficial as a distraction/diversion?)
Post by: Ehndras on August 05, 2011, 12:09:48 pm
Post by: a1s on August 05, 2011, 12:17:40 pm
Another idea I highly approve of, but I am very dubious how easy this would be to pull off undetected. Possibly useful as a precursor to some final assault where detection wouldnt matter (and possibly be beneficial as a distraction/diversion?)It's doable, but not really cost efficient: unless we also have powered down gunboats waiting to finish off the crippled ships, most of them will be able to go back to Mercury and repair. We, on the other hand, need to haul mines and fuel all the way from titan (in addition to a semi-permanent mine-layer fleet tied up in the area). It's better to stick to just deploying fast-moving wolf-packs along the enemy transport lanes.
Post by: Sheb on August 05, 2011, 01:47:49 pm
Could I get orders ready by tomorrow evening (I'm in Europe, so that means around noon/1P.M forum time)? That way I can run the turn.
Post by: Daltesh on August 05, 2011, 03:14:03 pm
Spoiler: orders (click to show/hide)
We've got a lot more mines than construction factories, so researching better mining can be done later. Unless I missed something and we're about to run out of Duranium, or something like that! I also think getting better engines is pretty damned important, even though we don't have a PP Scientist. We can focus on our infrastructure after we've got awesome 9000KPS gunboats, and getting it earlier is best since that means we can have time to upgrade or build entirely new stuff with the awesome engines. It might take a bit too long to upgrade the Carrier for it to be worth it though, so maybe building a new one would be a better idea there.
Also missiles doesn't seem like something we should sprint towards right now. We don't even have ordinance factories guys.
Also, 2 engineering bays? That's about as low as I thought, but I can see how it happened. This might seem like a stupid solution, but since both the Hebron destroyers and Mersin support craft have the K'Shaf missile sensors, we could drop them on the carrier pretty easily to get an extra few engineering bays in.
Post by: Sheb on August 06, 2011, 03:55:54 am
Post by: a1s on August 06, 2011, 09:34:09 am
Post by: Daltesh on August 06, 2011, 04:04:32 pm
To sum it up: I say we leave the armor since we don't want our most expensive and prized ships to be made out of tinfoil, and remove the sensor since it can't actually be put to effective use. (No weapons, and it carries a Mersin which has that same exact sensor anyway.)
Edit: By this I mean future versions of the carrier should have the modifications. They're probably light enough that we don't need to retool our shipyard, but not vital enough that we need to refit the old one. It would just do well staying around titan to take advantage of the maintenance facilities.
Post by: Bremen on August 06, 2011, 04:13:47 pm
Post by: tompliss on August 06, 2011, 05:29:32 pm
So yeah, put them all on one, as the possible spots all are moons ?
Post by: a1s on August 06, 2011, 07:25:34 pm
To sum it up: I say we leave the armor since we don't want our most expensive and prized ships to be made out of tinfoil,We're not removing all armor, it'd still have 3 layers left, which is how deep our enemies weapons will strike at the moment (if they're as good as ours, which with the Christian lack of scientific mindset, is highly doubtful), and getting struck on the same spot twice will result in damage either way (30% less with the armor left in place). I say chuck it. If you want something to waste space on add more engines/fuel.
Edit: Reread you post more carefully. Yes, future carriers will need 4-5 layers of armor (depending on when we field them), I assumed we were getting this one redone. Though I'd prefer it if we kept the sensor (and in fact increased it range- Mersins will be shot down first. Do not underestimate our enemies - they've survived this far against Allah's chosen people)
Also, I suppose it's a bit late now, but there's no real reason to split up our deep space tracking stations.Except being, like, 3 time closer to the place we want to monitor. I'm not asking we rebase our entire stock of DSTS piecemeal to the asteroid belt, I just need 1 for this project. When (and if) we'll start detecting at least freighter level signatures from around Mercury we can ship it back.
Post by: Sheb on August 07, 2011, 03:32:27 pm
Also, do you wish to keep producing Hufuf or not?
Post by: Bremen on August 07, 2011, 03:40:19 pm
I've started running the turn. There is now an Asteroid strike Force on Ceres. However, you may like to know that maintenance facilities need people to operate them. Do you plan on building orbital habitat? Maintenance ships? Or just rotate the Hufuf from time to time? (You have 3 squadrons of them).
Also, do you wish to keep producing Hufuf or not?
Move the gunboats back to titan for now. We can leave a stockpile of fuel on asteroids, and maintain the gunboats on Titan.
Build Hufuf continuously.
Post by: a1s on August 07, 2011, 04:57:13 pm
However, you may like to know that maintenance facilities need people to operate them.Can we dump a bunch of maintenance supplies there Instead? Obviously we don't need to ship maintenance facilities to Ceres, Seeing as how the point of the operation is stealth (and populations are anything but).
Post by: Bremen on August 07, 2011, 05:08:26 pm
However, you may like to know that maintenance facilities need people to operate them.Can we dump a bunch of maintenance supplies there Instead? Obviously we don't need to ship maintenance facilities to Ceres, Seeing as how the point of the operation is stealth (and populations are anything but).
We could, but then we'd have to build the supplies, and it would be inefficient.
Post by: a1s on August 07, 2011, 06:13:23 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 08, 2011, 06:28:14 am
Post by: a1s on August 08, 2011, 07:02:35 am
Edit: to clarify: This is important, because we don't have fuel production on Ceres- any fuel we use will have to be delivered there beforehand.
Edit #2: Of course we could always drop the Attack wing off near Ceres, fully fueled and then pick them up (replace?) at a safe distance (with the carrier) when their tour is over. What do you guys think? I would still like Carrier support on site.
On an IC note, I'd like to put in for a command position on the Ashdod. That's "Az-Wun'eh", with an 'e'. 8)
Post by: Azkul on August 08, 2011, 07:10:00 am
On an IC note, I'd like to put in for a command position on the Ashdod. That's "Az-Wun'eh", with an 'e'. 8)
You can also ask to have a ship named after you, or a captain, scientists... You won't have any control over it/him/her, but I'll write about it/him/her if something important happens. I won't be controlling captain assignment directly, so you can't as for a Cruiser captain. You can ask for a great Captain and hope the game put him in charge of that 14,000 tons Carrier however.
Post by: Sheb on August 08, 2011, 07:30:48 am
Let it be clear: I won't maintain waiting list, and you may well loose your command of the CV Ashdod in a few months (Tour are 6 months long). But you can have it for now.
Post by: a1s on August 10, 2011, 03:16:29 am
I've started running the turn.So how is that coming along?
Post by: Sheb on August 10, 2011, 03:33:22 am
Post by: shadenight123 on August 10, 2011, 05:00:19 am
Post by: a1s on August 10, 2011, 05:33:35 am
Anyway, what details about the strike-force still need to be provided?
Post by: Sheb on August 10, 2011, 06:34:48 am
Post by: a1s on August 10, 2011, 07:02:31 am
Post by: Boksi on August 10, 2011, 08:18:03 am
Post by: Azkul on August 10, 2011, 09:06:58 am
Post by: inteuniso on August 10, 2011, 09:17:36 am
Post by: Sheb on August 10, 2011, 09:48:30 am
Post by: a1s on August 10, 2011, 10:06:10 am
So vote are for the CV Ashdod on Vera (Not Ceres, sorry), with a FAC wing on it? I take it you'll want them to operate on stealth mode (no sensors until they're in shooting range of target, etc etc?Yes on the stealth mode.
With the loss of the maintenance facilities, there is longer a need to have a static base, so I think after each encounter with the enemy (by the FAC wing only, hopefully), Ashod should be moved in a random (kinda) direction for 1 day, at the speed of 225 km/s (we're going for TH 63 here, in case they can detect us). As a rule of thumb, we want the Ashod to end up 10-35 Mkm from Ceres after each trip.
Post by: Bremen on August 10, 2011, 01:25:43 pm
That would be Mercury. :P (That's why I'm pushing for a DSTS base on Ceres.)
Anyway, what details about the strike-force still need to be provided?
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that each extra DSTS increases sensor strenght by 25%, which is incorrect. If 1 sensor station is 250 strength, 2 stations is 500, 4 is 1000, etc. We're probably better off leaving every sensor station in the system on Titan.
And once again, I vote against stationing ships in the asteroid belt. Defending the outer system is one thing, but going out of our way to provoke a war when we have completely avoided military development is a bad idea.
Post by: a1s on August 10, 2011, 01:36:14 pm
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that each extra DSTS increases sensor strenght by 25%, which is incorrect. If 1 sensor station is 250 strength, 2 stations is 500, 4 is 1000, etc.
Quote from: http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Population
Deep Space Tracking Station (DSTS): DSTS provide EM and Thermal sensor capability for a colony. The first DSTS has a sensor strength equal to the racial Planetary Sensor Strength. Each additional DSTS adds 25% to the colony’s sensor strength.Not to mention that you can just load up Aurora and look at almost any colony with DSTS-es on it, to see that in fact no, it's not rating x # of stations.
Post by: Azkul on August 10, 2011, 01:52:35 pm
Post by: Bremen on August 10, 2011, 02:06:39 pm
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that each extra DSTS increases sensor strenght by 25%, which is incorrect. If 1 sensor station is 250 strength, 2 stations is 500, 4 is 1000, etc.Quote from: http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=PopulationDeep Space Tracking Station (DSTS): DSTS provide EM and Thermal sensor capability for a colony. The first DSTS has a sensor strength equal to the racial Planetary Sensor Strength. Each additional DSTS adds 25% to the colony’s sensor strength.Not to mention that you can just load up Aurora and look at almost any colony with DSTS-es on it, to see that in fact no, it's not rating x # of stations.
Which is exactly what I did before I claimed otherwise. Did you?
(http://i889.photobucket.com/albums/ac91/PABremen/Aurora.jpg)
Post by: a1s on August 10, 2011, 02:29:09 pm
Post by: shadenight123 on August 10, 2011, 03:59:29 pm
ps:
what is our actual mineral situation? considering mineral outposts?
Post by: Daltesh on August 11, 2011, 02:06:05 am
what about instead researching new science to increase sensor outputs?Engines!
But personally I'm with Bremen. I vote against sending our ships into the asteroid belt if we aren't going to try and interdict the inner planets. But I also think it might be wise to station at least a small surprise at a jump point, so that we will both know when they start surveying jump points, and so we can set them back just a bit while we research it ourselves, should it come to that.
Post by: a1s on August 11, 2011, 03:29:14 am
But personally I'm with Bremen. I vote against sending our ships into the asteroid belt if we aren't going to try and interdict the inner planets.In a sense that's exactly what we'll be doing, just in a smaller scope (in the asteroid belt). If however we don't deploy a sensor (and I'm still not entirely convinced we shouldn't, though I'm less certain, now that I know about the 100% DSTS power gain :-\), interdiction is effectively impossible (at least until we build a bunch more DSTS-es on Titan ), rather than merely being inadvisable.
But I also think it might be wise to station at least a small surprise at a jump point, so that we will both know when they start surveying jump points, and so we can set them back just a bit while we research it ourselves, should it come to that.The problem is that we don't know where that is, and we don't have any way of monitoring the entire inner Lagrange ring.
Post by: shadenight123 on August 11, 2011, 03:33:23 am
without mass drivers.
just, leave the mines there, then, when we have free production on the planet, we start sending mass drivers...REMEMBERING TO KEEP ONE FOR OURSELVES.
playing this game for little, but have (in my game) earth with metals send from everyother place through mass driver...were i to ever forget to keep one on earth...it would be death.
through packages of needed metal, since in my game, earth has run out of everything! XD
Post by: a1s on August 11, 2011, 03:53:50 am
what is our actual mineral situation? considering mineral outposts?
State of the Caliphatewe're not close to running out of anything and we don't have a mass driver yet. Titania (a moon of Uranus) is our choice for mining operation:
<snip>Spoiler: Titan (click to show/hide)
If we have a free freighter, we might want to move some automated mines there. But, again, mineral situation won't get any worse for another decade.Spoiler: Minerals on Titania (click to show/hide)
Post by: shadenight123 on August 11, 2011, 04:25:31 am
just realized in my game i finished also the sorium.
now i'm droplet-importing it from asteroids. neptune and uranus would be fathomable...if not for me finishing also corbomite, which it seems needed to create the sorium ahrvester, or still, parts of the ship.
...
well...i do believe i'll just have to wait a couple of decades.
Post by: Daltesh on August 11, 2011, 06:08:10 am
But I also think it might be wise to station at least a small surprise at a jump point, so that we will both know when they start surveying jump points, and so we can set them back just a bit while we research it ourselves, should it come to that.The problem is that we don't know where that is, and we don't have any way of monitoring the entire inner Lagrange ring.
Doh. I meant put some armed scouts on a Survey Point.
Post by: a1s on August 11, 2011, 06:09:31 am
Post by: Bremen on August 11, 2011, 08:19:35 am
Post by: a1s on August 11, 2011, 08:51:32 am
Or We could use a Hufuf+Mersin team (they might even be able to get there under their own power if it's only those 2 ships, still they'd need to be manually refueled every 2.5 days) and they definitely can chase down a survey craft.
Post by: Bremen on August 11, 2011, 11:23:46 am
It's a plan. Our Hebron destroyers should be able to last a couple of years unmaintained, and they should be able to chase down a survey craft.
Or We could use a Hufuf+Mersin team (they might even be able to get there under their own power if it's only those 2 ships, still they'd need to be manually refueled every 2.5 days) and they definitely can chase down a survey craft.
Ships only use fuel when they're moving.
Post by: a1s on August 11, 2011, 12:27:53 pm
Fun fact (not for Bremen, who I'm guessing already knows, but for the rest of us): The FACs are designed in so robust a fashion, that they actually have a longer maintenance cycle then our destroyers.
Between that, being half the cost and 3 times the top speed I think FAC teams are the best for this job. The bad news (again, just a figure of speech) is that we only have 3 Mersins (they carry the sensors) and 6 points to cover.
Post by: Sheb on August 12, 2011, 05:56:51 pm
I also tried to change the way the turn is posted. Do you prefer the old, journal-like entries?
Code: [Select]
From Mohamed Yunnus « War of the Stars »
[b]The Ghostly Threat[/b]
During the High Council of December 1542, a decision was reached to pressure the Kaffirs out of the Asteroid Belt.
A Deep Space Tracking Station was laid on Vesta, while Az-Wun'eh, commanding the CV [i]Ashdod[/i] was bringing a full squadron of gunboats to Ceres. More Hufufs were also laid down in Titan to replace any that might be lost fighting the Kaffir.
By the end of January, the trap was ready, waiting for it's prey. The men did not have to wait for long. On the 10th of February, a Thermal contact was detected a mere 15 million km from Vesta, heading straigh for it at over 2400 km/s. It was nicknamed Ghost by the ships' crew, for it had managed to slip so near our Listening Station. Spoiler: Map (click to show/hide)
Code: [Select]
The gunboats were immediately sent after the contact, but Ceres was far away from Vesta ((OOC:Sorry, I choose Ceres while on a zoomed out view and didn't realize it was 120 m km away.)) and by the time the Hufufs got there, the Kaffir ship had disappeared, furthering its ghostly reputation. The ships looked for it for hours but couldn't find it.
Back on Titan, the High Council was having an emergency meeting to decide what to do with the now compromised listening post on Vesta...
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on August 12, 2011, 07:19:44 pm
Post by: a1s on August 12, 2011, 11:03:19 pm
So is it Vera or Vesta?
And which one (Ve(st/r)a or Ceres) houses out tracking station?
We should try to shift the listening station to a near-by asteroid and lay a trap around Vesta. Hopefully we could ambush and destroy one of these Ghosts before they can slip away.If our station is compromised on Vesta, and we have a Freighter nearby (as we seem to on the map), then we should relocate it to Ceres at once, while the FAC wing will move into trapping position near Vesta. we'll want to be about 1.5Mkm away, as we'll lose sensor support until DSTS is relocated and have to use Mersin's sensors.
(Does anyone know the precise formula for active sensor detection? The wiki only says it's tied to the EM sensor.)
Also, it would be interesting to know how fast this "Ghost" was moving (did we track it long enough to find out?).
Post by: Sheb on August 13, 2011, 04:38:55 am
Post by: shadenight123 on August 13, 2011, 05:53:44 am
How is thermal reduction going?
if we managed to reach 30% and research it, to make a new type of engine, we could send Spectre-class ship (name invented, though) with low tonnage, low heat signal, and maybe cloaking device, also?
and unarmed.
They should just...scout.
Post by: Sheb on August 13, 2011, 06:02:19 am
Post by: shadenight123 on August 13, 2011, 06:37:07 am
That's longer term. Right now, we need to deal with the current situation so I can end the year.
didn't we decide to shoot down anything coming too close to us?
how about sending a faster squadron of ships behind it to gun it down and leave a message?
Post by: Sheb on August 13, 2011, 06:47:25 am
Post by: shadenight123 on August 13, 2011, 07:18:58 am
That's what you did. And you lost the contact. Which mean that they know where your listening post is, and will likely do something about it.
so, whatever happened, that ship is stronger than the ships we already sent at them?
...
i believe militarization should be brought up as the next subject.
Post by: Sheb on August 13, 2011, 07:25:18 am
Post by: Sheb on August 13, 2011, 03:53:45 pm
"This is an ultimatum. Your listening post shall be removed from Vesta before the end of March, or it'll be cleansed in the Holy Fire. Any further incursion into the Asteroid Belt will be considered an act of aggression and punished with destruction of your puny homeworld. You don't want to go oasting in hell sooner than necessary, do you?"
Also, I decided to remove the message limits. Feelf ree tos end as many as you want.
Post by: shadenight123 on August 13, 2011, 05:09:42 pm
"when our 20 tons warships will roll out of our hangars next january, you will see pain, the belt is ours, and we will keep it"
(which isn't true, but LYING and giving fake info's are part of war strategy)
what do you think?
Post by: Felius on August 13, 2011, 08:30:06 pm
i'm suggesting to send this message to the enemies:Two problems:
"when our 20 tons warships will roll out of our hangars next january, you will see pain, the belt is ours, and we will keep it"
(which isn't true, but LYING and giving fake info's are part of war strategy)
what do you think?
1. Provoking them might make them try to put everything they have into a preemptive attack, which we would not be ready.
2. 20 ton is a very silly tonnage. The fighter engine alone weights 50 ton.
Post by: Daltesh on August 13, 2011, 11:49:02 pm
Personally I'm for something along the lines of claiming the outer asteroid belt, and saying that anything else is just arrogant rhetoric that can't be substantiated by the force of arms their heretical government can bring to bear. And even if not, simply leaving the sensor station there with a Mersin in orbit would at least allow us to catch a glimpse of any forces they intend to attack with. A Mersin is fast and small enough that by the time it can get a sensor lock on the enemy, it can turn off its own sensors and be out of there before they have any hope of catching it. But while these stances are a more passive-aggressive tactical method, in the strategic sense I seriously doubt our nation would look fondly upon buckling to the demands of Mercurians. They're trying a show of force, so we should try a show of force. Though when I think about it, keeping our gunship capabilities hidden (if they aren't already exposed) might be a good idea, just to postpone how long it is before they start making antigunship weaponry.
I haven't said anything in the thread for a while so I figured I'd post something rambling and aggressive. Is it too early for me to resume talking about how awesome upgraded engines are?
Post by: a1s on August 14, 2011, 02:25:28 am
I believe was the intended message. Not that I endorse it. I think we should offer to remove the DSTS in exchange for them "allowing us to send surveyor ships to the holy land"
"when our 20 kiloton warships will roll out of our hangars next january, you will see pain, the belt is ours, and we will keep it"
So is anyone actually opposed to the plan of moving the DSTS to Ceres and leaving a wing of FACs in ambush 1.5 Mkm counter-spinward from Vesta?
Also, they seem to be able to detect us, so I think we should raise the estimation of their Sensor strength to 1250, and adjust our heat signatures (that is: speed) accordingly (we probably should have done this when Bremen pointed out how DSTS-es stack).
Finally, perhaps while we are removing the DSTS from Vespa, we could send an empty Freighter at full speed from Titan to Vespa and back (we're not using that second freighter, right?) in an attempt to throw them off our scent.
Post by: shadenight123 on August 14, 2011, 03:10:05 am
making them put everything in a preemptive attack would likely crunch them if they didn't prepare adequate resources. They'd have to build naval shipyard (if they have few) retool them for the class intended (which i suppose right now are only for survey ships and the like) and then have them built.
And we'd have a year to scare them off with Sensoring displays of strength. (you see that thousand heat signals? it's absolutely not a single ship moving all around like an idiot. It's our fleet with cloaking devices, and we are sending you a subtle message "we are many" by activating/deactivating their cloaking devices.)
but maybe that's a little impractible, because it would require actually time increments of really little time.
and yes, i was referring to kilotons. (tons, kilotons, HS, what it is!)
or we could simply wait with an armed ship for their own freighter to move by...to shoot it down.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 03:28:23 am
The understood strategy so far is:
-Move the DSTS to Ceres.
-Move the FACs 1.5m km from Vesta.
-Send an empty Freighter back to Titan at full speed, so they detect it.
-Wait for them to come if you've vacated Vesta and crush them.
What should I do with the Ashdod?
Post by: a1s on August 14, 2011, 03:43:08 am
-Move the DSTS to Ceres.correct. Furthermore, move very slowly. (this is a stealth operation- expect a 1250-strong sensor on Mercury.)
-Move the FACs 1.5m km from Vesta.correct
-Send an empty Freighter back to Titan at full speed, so they detect it.No. Send a different (we have, like, 3) empty freight from Titan to Vesta at full speed. and back too.
-Wait for them to come if you've vacated Vesta and crush them.Or at least see what the level of their military hardware is, yes.
What should I do with the Ashdod?point 1: maintain low speed at all times. Expect sensor strength 1250 until July, then 1500.
point 2: move to a location near Ceres. not on top of Ceres. not away from Ceres (we don't need a second Vesta). Somewhere around 20-75 Mkm from Ceres. (asteroid 164 is about how far away I want Ashod. In fact, let's move it there for this first time)
point 3: after the encounter at Ceres is- move FACs to Ashod. if no one comes just leave them there until January, we'll deal with them in the new turn.
point 4: if we have to sortie FACS from the carrier, it should be moved. the rule for picking the destination are the same: 20-75 Mkm from Ceres. It doesn't have to be a celestial body, as those don't actually give any stealth benefits in this game (right?).
point 5: If the FACs are destroyed send the Ashod back to Titan. (and, I can't stress this enough, do it slowly)
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 04:02:34 am
Post by: a1s on August 14, 2011, 04:09:06 am
Fun Fact: Aurora doesn't let you display signature range for sensor over 1000. :pThis is a bit inconvenient, but you can set sensor strength to 625/750 and then half the resulting speed (rounding down) after you configure it. I wonder why Steve didn't put in multipliers like he did with sensor ranges? ???
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 05:59:03 am
Post by: shadenight123 on August 14, 2011, 06:13:57 am
but it's just a feeling.
Post by: a1s on August 14, 2011, 06:21:47 am
And you won't be pleased.Have we lost the Ashod? The DSTS? both?
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 06:34:34 am
The council quickly set up an action plan: while the DSTS would be moved to Ceres, the FACs would set an ambush 1.5 m km from Vesta.
By the evening of the 12th, the FACs were ready. From there, it was a long wait : the prudence of the Council meant most ship had to move at a ridiculously slow speed.
The tense situation also created the only case in history of a messenger being shot for bringing good news. When a young, eager scientist burst into the Council room to announce that Al-Azred had made yet another breakthrough in information technology, the nervous Coucnillors had him beheaded for distracting them.
On the 25th, after two weeks of waiting, a ship was finally detected heading for Vesta. It was moving quite slowly, at 775 km/s, but the large sensor array he sported hinted of a warship. It was either trying to sneak undecteted or escorting a slower civilian vessel. Probably on escort duty, as a sneaking ship wouldn't turn his sensors on. It was nicknamed the Werewolf for it came out of the night right as Io rised over the Council's chamber.
The Asteroid Strike Force commander, Yussuf Al-Ashad, decided to turn off his own sensors and wait for the civilian ship to start unloading its cargo on Vesta, hoping to pin down the Kaffirs there.
The freighter carrying the DSTS was already far, but the decoy freighter was only 30km away. Al-Ashad sent an order telling it to move away at full speed and reduce said speed after a few millions km.
When the ennemy warship was 2km away from the Mersin and Hufufs, it suddenly changed direction and started speeding toward the FACs at 3500 km/s. Al-Ashad understood he was spotted, probably by the ennemy's anti-missile sensors. Keeping his head cool, he decided not to move, so as not to reveal his FAC's capabilities until the ennemy was in range.
At 200,000km, two new thermal contacts were detected, about a third as large as the Werewolf. In a fit of mockery, it was nicknamed Werepuppy and were probably some kind of anti-missile escort.
The ennemy Warship stopped at 150,000 km. As soon as they stopped, a dreadful revelation came upon Al-Ashad : he was severaly out-ranged. He immediately sent his ships rushing forward at full speed, hoping to close the range before being shot.
The closing of the range was horrible, with some strange beam weapons hitting the Hufufs incessantly. Soon some of them started lagging behing, their engine or fuel tank hit. Other just exploded, killing most of their crews. But always they were surivors, charging toward the infidels, rage replacing faith as more and more of their friends died.
When the FACs finally got in range, only 5 Hufufs remained, of whose only 3 had both fire control and guns. Al-Ashad ordered them to focus on the Werewolf, hoping for a lucky shot that could cause a secondary explosion and disable the ship.
Unluckily, no such shot occured, less than two minutes after the first hit was taken, all the Hufufs were disabled. Al-Ashad, dishonoured, jumped out of an airlock rather than risking capture by the kaffirs. Not all of his men were so courageous though, and the 295 that managed to survive were captured by the infidels.
Spoiler: Battle Results (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Ennemy Classes (click to show/hide)
Tl;Dr: The Asteroid Strike Force got wiped out, doing close to no damage. The Ashdod and DSTS are safe.
Post by: shadenight123 on August 14, 2011, 06:51:49 am
heavy heavy warships.
but fast fast to be build.
technology on increasing shipbuilding rates maybe?
Post by: tompliss on August 14, 2011, 07:03:31 am
however, they don't seem to have giant speed, so if we could get eapons just ahead of them, in terms of range, it may be possible to wipe them out, staying out of their range.
Post by: a1s on August 14, 2011, 07:11:53 am
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 07:15:17 am
Post by: a1s on August 14, 2011, 07:18:56 am
Seriously though, more ships.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 07:20:10 am
Post by: a1s on August 14, 2011, 07:21:03 am
What are our Shipyards tooled for currently?
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 07:22:12 am
Post by: a1s on August 14, 2011, 07:24:25 am
it may be possible to wipe them out, staying out of their range.Seeing as how we have mesons (next range increment 60KkM) and they have particle beams (150 Kkm right now) that is unfeasible. What we need are ships that will be able to close the distance with our enemies quickly, as well as getting a bonus on maneuvering. And that means our priority should be engines.
Didn't change that since last update.Well Gracious won't be producing a ship, so when we get those engines we should retool it to produce our new destroyer. To that end we might want to set it to continual expansion for now so that destroyer could be big.
Post by: shadenight123 on August 14, 2011, 07:40:48 am
lot's of shields.
shields do recharge themselves.
we could close in with shields aplenty and run into them all pearl harbour style.
...
can we crash against an enemy ship in aurora? or board it?
*diabolic plan coming to the mind*
Post by: Azkul on August 14, 2011, 08:13:51 am
can we crash against an enemy ship in aurora?Theoretically, yes.
Actually, no.
or board it?Yes.
Post by: shadenight123 on August 14, 2011, 09:51:40 am
because that were the case, we could build mass shielded/low armored ships to engage in boarding activities and capture the enemies ships...and grab their designs, maybe?
we do have soldiers to use, and i doubt they have their own soldiers on their ships. They'd succumb right?
or is it only a Crew number thing?
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 09:57:48 am
Post by: shadenight123 on August 14, 2011, 10:09:47 am
you know, really fast to death small ships, heavily shielded, which go and bump against their freighters, making a massacre of their crewmembers until they reach a point where the ship can't move, and they all die there like infidels should.
Post by: Iituem on August 14, 2011, 10:11:33 am
Post by: a1s on August 14, 2011, 10:15:48 am
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 10:23:48 am
Post by: shadenight123 on August 14, 2011, 10:37:24 am
:-[
well...we can still have a highly shielded ship with mass laser and beam weaponry, right, right?
Post by: Bremen on August 14, 2011, 10:45:07 am
This is pretty much what I expected to happen. I kept saying "Don't provoke them, we haven't been building ships!" but no one listened :(
I've kind of been leaving this thread alone because it seemed obvious my plans were not popular, but my suggestion would be to stay the course. The battle did show that the gunboat concept is useful; they were able to close the range in the face of fire and hit with Mesons; if we'd had a full force of gunboats instead of dividing our forces (which I repeatedly argued against) we probably would have won. So, keep building gunboats, maybe add slipways to the yard. Finish engines then develop better mesons, since we've been forced into a badly planned war.
What it did teach is that our (non-gunboat) ships are completely useless; the enemy are far faster and longer ranged than our ships. Really, they're useless to the point that we might as well just scrap them. No point in building anything but gunboats.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 10:47:18 am
Post by: Bremen on August 14, 2011, 10:52:10 am
Well, actually, you could have won, you just needed to send more ships. After all, you were fighting with 7,000 tons of FAC against 18,000 tons of ships.
Yes. There's really no reason to ever divide up your forces in a war like this; I don't know why everyone seemed to think they would repeatedly send unarmed civilian ships where we could shoot them. I mean, they're not the Aurora AI :P
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 10:55:57 am
Post by: Bremen on August 14, 2011, 11:03:52 am
By the way, is there any edit to the year-long order, or can I finish the year?
For the love of god don't build any Hebrons.
Other than that, since people kept changing my orders I've kind of resigned myself to advisor/last sane man :P
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 11:05:31 am
Post by: shadenight123 on August 14, 2011, 11:12:01 am
Post by: Bremen on August 14, 2011, 11:19:19 am
so...research better armor techs?
Yes, better armor techs will be of great help when we never get to shoot at the enemy and they can pound away at our helpless ships for hours on end!
Sorry, I guess I shouldn't be sarcastic, but this game is making me very cynical :P
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 11:20:36 am
Post by: Bremen on August 14, 2011, 11:22:19 am
Post by: shadenight123 on August 14, 2011, 11:30:28 am
so...research better armor techs?
Yes, better armor techs will be of great help when we never get to shoot at the enemy and they can pound away at our helpless ships for hours on end!
Sorry, I guess I shouldn't be sarcastic, but this game is making me very cynical :P
nah, sarcasm and irony are the salt and spice of life.
we "should" actually stop researching jump point theory, we are as good as screwed if they do invade us. and i dunno...increased range with our weaponry? i was all for the suicide ships plan, but it seems unfeasible indeed.
Well...we just need a blackhole then!
Post by: Bremen on August 14, 2011, 11:33:19 am
so...research better armor techs?
Yes, better armor techs will be of great help when we never get to shoot at the enemy and they can pound away at our helpless ships for hours on end!
Sorry, I guess I shouldn't be sarcastic, but this game is making me very cynical :P
nah, sarcasm and irony are the salt and spice of life.
we "should" actually stop researching jump point theory, we are as good as screwed if they do invade us. and i dunno...increased range with our weaponry? i was all for the suicide ships plan, but it seems unfeasible indeed.
Well...we just need a blackhole then!
I've advocated dropping jump point theory since the missile nerf anyways.
Increased range weapons aren't a priority right now; there's no way we'll get a range advantage with Mesons. Engines are our best bet.
Post by: Bremen on August 14, 2011, 11:44:43 am
Space Orders:
Keep all ships at Titan. Battle contingency orders: If the enemy attacks titan, fall back and try to lure them into range of the PDC. Then, if Titan's sensors can detect a particularly large ship, similar to our troop transports, have the gunboats try to kill it, ideally flying around the enemy fleet if the transport is holding back. The destroyers and carrier should just try to stay out of enemy range if they can, maybe they can hide in deep space or something.
Industrial Orders
Build 2 of the new PDCs (design below) using 100% of construction capacity, then build factories with 100% of capacity.
Keep building gunboats, add slipways to the gunboat yard.
Research Orders
Put 35 labs on research rate 280, it should be almost done. Then develop better reactor tech, better engine tech, then better armor tech with the same scientist. The remaining 5 labs should go to Ali Sulaiman who should work on developing improved command and control.
Other Orders
Design a new PDC. It should be absolutely bare bones; no armor, no sensor, no fuel capacity (WHY?), no hangars or barracks. Just 3 meson turrets, 1 fire control, and necessary additions (crew quarters and maybe a bridge if its over 1k tons).
Once better engines and armor are done, design a new gunboat; try to give it a little armor while keeping it otherwise basic and fast. Retool the gunboat yard for the new model when available and begin refitting to the new class (the refits should be cheap and fast; if not, build new hulls instead). Three layers of armor would be ideal, and should let them shrug off a few hits from smaller particle beam weapons.
Post by: Azkul on August 14, 2011, 12:45:02 pm
Ok, here's my try at orders:
Space Orders:
Keep all ships at Titan. Battle contingency orders: If the enemy attacks titan, fall back and try to lure them into range of the PDC. Then, if Titan's sensors can detect a particularly large ship, similar to our troop transports, have the gunboats try to kill it, ideally flying around the enemy fleet if the transport is holding back. The destroyers and carrier should just try to stay out of enemy range if they can, maybe they can hide in deep space or something.
Industrial Orders
Build 2 of the new PDCs (design below) using 100% of construction capacity, then build factories with 100% of capacity.
Keep building gunboats, add slipways to the gunboat yard.
Research Orders
Put 35 labs on research rate 280, it should be almost done. Then develop better reactor tech, better engine tech, then better armor tech with the same scientist. The remaining 5 labs should go to Ali Sulaiman who should work on developing improved command and control.
Other Orders
Design a new PDC. It should be absolutely bare bones; no armor, no sensor, no fuel capacity (WHY?), no hangars or barracks. Just 3 meson turrets, 1 fire control, and necessary additions (crew quarters and maybe a bridge if its over 1k tons).
Once better engines and armor are done, design a new gunboat; try to give it a little armor while keeping it otherwise basic and fast. Retool the gunboat yard for the new model when available and begin refitting to the new class (the refits should be cheap and fast; if not, build new hulls instead). Three layers of armor would be ideal, and should let them shrug off a few hits from smaller particle beam weapons.
Research rate 280 is complete.
Also, what is the point of producing PDCs which have a shorter range than enemy weapons?
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 01:17:01 pm
Post by: Bremen on August 14, 2011, 03:18:10 pm
Post by: Jerick on August 14, 2011, 03:57:56 pm
You have invaded our territory, attacked one of our patrol vessals unprovoked and demanded we withdraw from what is rightfuly ours. This an injustice we can not allow. Withdraw from our territory and cease all unprovoked attacks on our ships or our fleet will swarm over your homeland reducing it to debris, ashes and broken reminders of what you could have been had you not stood in our path.
End Message
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 04:22:45 pm
26th of February
As part of the new doctrine, a new PDC was designed, the Beirut.
Spoiler: Beirut (click to show/hide)
28th of March
A second Mosul is created and sent to survey the outer asteroid belt.
13th of April
A DSTS is finished on Titan. Work immediately start on the first of two Beirut. They should be completed by mid-June.
14th of April
The active sensor from the Werewold is picked up again coming from Mercury. Obviously they do not trust their passive sensors.
2nd of June
An Engineering Brigade was finished today. Since they don't have anything else to do, they'll help the workers construct the Beirut.
12th of June
Thanks to the engineers, the two Beirut are now ready. More contruction factories are ordered.
2nd of July
3 Hufufs are ready, and 3 more are laid down. When those are finished, we will almost be up to the strength we had in early 1542.
8th of July
The Amir-ul-Ashar Shade Night and Az Wun'eh have each been given command of a Gile'h-class PDC. Funnily enough, it is now Az Wun'eh that command Shad Night's former PDC, the Garibaldi.
23rd of August
Research finished on Gas-Cooled Reactors. Al-Azred will now develop new engines based on that technology. The Ion Engine won't be ready until June of next year.
On a less joyous not, the Amir-ul-Ashar Shade Night was diagnosed with prostate cancer. May Allah cure him.
23rd of November
Three more Hufufs are built. Three more are laid down.
29th of December
It is the end of the year already. The Califate isn't much stronger than it was, but a bunch of new technologies are coming that could turn the tide.
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 04:28:27 pm
Spoiler: Current Order Of Battle (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Titan (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Technologies (click to show/hide)
Please point out any error as usual. Feel free to request information. The enxt turn should be somewhen next week.
Post by: Azkul on August 14, 2011, 04:56:52 pm
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 05:09:34 pm
Industry Tab: You're producing factories with 100% of you capabilities.
Post by: shadenight123 on August 14, 2011, 06:29:21 pm
name my new ship the Abyss.
and, since i'm a half-aurora newb...
1) what's a PDC!?
2) you can actually use engineering brigades to finish up constructions?! how!?
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 06:40:31 pm
2)Engineering Brigade count as a Construction Factory.
Post by: a1s on August 14, 2011, 06:41:40 pm
1) what's a PDC!?1) Planetary Defense Center. It's like a ship, but without engines, always on a planet and it's produced with industry instead of a space-yard (no retooling).
2) you can actually use engineering brigades to finish up constructions?! how!?
2) Yes. Automatically. They're not cost efficient, but since ground troop training is independent from industry, it can give you additional production capacity quicker. Also can produce stuff in places where you don't have population (this is the "intended" use).
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 07:15:30 pm
Post by: Akigagak on August 14, 2011, 10:45:49 pm
Numbers, we're working on. Cranking out those Hufufs with the great culture of industry that built the legendary pyramids themselves.
Speed and Surprise should probably be our biggest area of military research focus. Emission reductions, faster engines (I know the second kinda screws with the former, so probably more work should be put into engines until we can tell more about the sensors.
That's the big thing, we need to know what they can see, and how well they can see it. If we can control what they see, all the better. Would it be possible to give a carrier-esque ship the outward appearance of a freighter or similar? Give it a couple guards so nothing seems out of place, then swarm the hell out of anything that approaches?
Post by: Sheb on August 14, 2011, 10:48:42 pm
Post by: Akigagak on August 14, 2011, 11:04:24 pm
You could make a 36,000 tons carrier that move really slowly. Even using civilians engines. However, if they get an active sensor, they can tell the class, so it'll only work once.
Well, yeah... but they seem to have a few, big, ships instead of our star-swarm-alike horde of mesons. Any loses we inflict hurts them quite badly. It wouldn't be something to rely on, but it could be a nice surprise. It could also mean we could use big, cheap, ship as a deterrent in the future. They might not fall for the same trick twice, but they might think us stupid enough to to attempt it.
Post by: a1s on August 15, 2011, 02:03:05 am
You could make a 36,000 tons carrier that moved really slowly.That's a purely theoretical possibility. We'd also need a 36k ton naval construction yard, which is years, if not decades, away. And we haven't even started expanding.
Speaking of NCYs, we might want to build another one to build more Mersins (or rather whatever the successor to the Mersin class will be). We might not want to start right away though (we do need to design this Mersin-of-the-future before completion, and that likely won't happen until August-September).
Post by: Azkul on August 15, 2011, 03:50:08 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: a1s on August 15, 2011, 04:38:16 am
Research OrdersHow many times do I have to say this? Al-Azred is a better scientist, unless you have a project that is in someone else's area of expertise (which we don't) keep him fully stocked with labs. If we need Thermal reduction (do we? :-\), which is a DS technology, then just let him research his engines and then set him on the reduction task, it will be quicker that way. I also don't think we need mining tech. At any rate it should come after shipbuilding.
(after Ion Engine Technology completes)
Assign 20 labs to Ali Sulaiman
Assign 20 labs to Abdul al-Azred
Finally we have 2 slipways idling, and in addition to the new gunboat (and a new sensor boat), we need a better destroyer- more engines, less reactors (they'll be more powerful reactors, you see). Let's add 500 tons to Granter of Security to help with the extra space for the engines.
Post by: Felius on August 15, 2011, 07:01:45 am
Thermal Emission Reduction is useless right now. It's only useful if the enemy does not have an obscene amount of sensors or if taken to a very high level. It also makes the engines more expensive, which we don't want to right now. We need numbers, and making the engines less noisy would make us make less ships.
Finish jump point theory and a basic jump drive. After that, build some explorers (two classes, size 1 thermal and passive sensors, civilian engine, small self only civ jump drive, one of them with a geo sensor the other with the grav sensor) and find a nice system to start colonizing and have somewhere to retreat to.
Post by: shadenight123 on August 15, 2011, 08:21:46 am
that said, retreat is probably an optimal option, but only after the retreat position is consolidated. We could keep them at bay with guerrilla tactics. (you know, going behind them, waiting for earth to turn around the sun and get near our skirmishers so we can get a couple of shots) and moving fighters like a swarm all around titan in small "clouds" and when one gets attacked, all the others converge.
Post by: Sheb on August 15, 2011, 08:59:32 am
Post by: shadenight123 on August 15, 2011, 09:08:58 am
You don't have fighter factories, or fighter engines. And JG cannot be destroyed.
so...we'd have to build colony and freighter ships WITH hyperspace engines, to avoid giving the enemy a jumpgate into our system...how nice. OR we could build only one way jumpgates, and place ambushers for their fleets when they get on the other side (after a jump they are defenseless for a while, right?) but then they could give their ships hyperdrives and we'd end up fighting them...in one way or another, to retreat is just to postpone the inevitable. unless we place a dummy colony immediately after and then leave for a really far away system and come back in strength and numbers.
Post by: Felius on August 15, 2011, 09:12:02 am
Yeah, I wouldn't recommend jump gate to the christian systems unless we are assaulting them. Once it's put in place it's forever.
No fighter factories? In this case, I'd propose we make another military shipyard to build gunships.
P.S. For the ninja: Not hyperdrive, jump engines. Hyperdrive is just a nice novelty for huge systems.
Post by: Bremen on August 15, 2011, 12:40:38 pm
Similarly, I maintain jump point tech is a bad idea, since we can't compete with the AI without missiles, or at least building lots of warships dedicated to anti-missile work (which would be useless against our real enemies).
Post by: a1s on August 15, 2011, 04:53:37 pm
Post by: shadenight123 on August 15, 2011, 05:48:04 pm
what about research in more shipbuilding/production and build off more pdc? pdc's with REALLY REALLY long range. (like the big bessy of artilleries)
Post by: Bremen on August 15, 2011, 06:23:30 pm
so...we must increase production.
what about research in more shipbuilding/production and build off more pdc? pdc's with REALLY REALLY long range. (like the big bessy of artilleries)
We have more important things to research than increased shipbuilding speed. Plus, seeing as we're producing small ships, more yards is a better strategy than faster yards.
And range in Aurora doesn't work like that, you can't just infinitely increase range by building bigger guns. Range is limited by tech, not expense.
Post by: shadenight123 on August 16, 2011, 02:39:10 am
so...we must increase production.
what about research in more shipbuilding/production and build off more pdc? pdc's with REALLY REALLY long range. (like the big bessy of artilleries)
We have more important things to research than increased shipbuilding speed. Plus, seeing as we're producing small ships, more yards is a better strategy than faster yards.
And range in Aurora doesn't work like that, you can't just infinitely increase range by building bigger guns. Range is limited by tech, not expense.
oh. then let's research range.
(if it wasn't quite clear, i'm a 98% noob. the 2% being i actually managed after help to install the game and make it run, and to understand at least most of the interface and comands. (and having made already some ship designs!) >.>
Post by: DemonOfWrath on August 16, 2011, 03:10:35 am
better armour tech
better reactors
better meson range/fire control speed/fire control range
reduce engine efficiency for more power
A lot of the options are listed because we can reduce the size of components with those techs, allowing room for more armour, speed and/or numbers, as the whole battle is really a matter of getting a critical number into range, speed and armour are the key things I reckon need to be boosted.
I'd probably suggest either FC range or armour tech first, as while we can boost the range of the mesons it means we have to boost the size of the FCs to allow for the increase in max range, which will reduce speed or protection (or, if we choose to go above 700 tonnes, numbers), so taking into account what I can make of the current research projects, I'd suggest (in order):
finish ion engines
finish composite armour
fire control range
meson range
Post by: Daltesh on August 16, 2011, 06:47:44 am
But in terms of actual fights, the enemies range advantage against us is a frightening thing. It doesn't matter if we close on them if they always blast half our forces out of space before we can even start thinking about plinking at their crew quarters. (And causing glorious secondary explosions) But luckily for my Engines Are Always Awesome campaign, engines are awesome at helping us close even faster and mitigate our losses.
Sooo.. My opinion is as thus: Research engines, maybe even some of that +speed/+explodey modulation, and keep pumping out the FACs. We'll probably want to avoid actually upgrading the FACs once we upgrade them though, and just keep pumping out the newer version.
Also to add to the orders: Once you finish researching Ion engine tech... Research actual ion engine designs and upgrade our ship designs! And if retooling is required, Start retooling immediately after laying down the next series of ships to be built. That way we can keep building one last line of older models while upgrading.
Post by: DemonOfWrath on August 16, 2011, 07:13:37 am
Simply, to keep them from phasing those escorts out for something useful due the threat that we possess missile capability. Give it a small amount of large, fast missiles, that would hit like a wet tissue, just to scare them into keeping the escorts around in fear of getting hit by a really powerful missile (thus letting us blast them with the Hufufs at some point)? I can't remember if tricking them like that is possible from the info they get shooting them down though (they'll know the size and speed, but I can't remember if that'd let them see that the missiles would have basically no warhead). The idea would be to fire few enough that they'd shoot them down for sure, but letting them see the size and speed of the missiles, to make them think we have some awesome missile tech.
On thinking about it actually, missiles wouldn't be bad to sporadically complement our mesons with their pathetic range, and keep them from specialising everything to blowing meson FACs as they close in. I realise the disadvantages but I feel its an interesting enough plan to throw out there, depending on how they react to the information they've got now (face it, if they remove the Werepuppies for something to deal with FACs, a surprise missile volley could win an engagement or two).
Post by: Ehndras on August 16, 2011, 10:01:46 am
Post by: RedKing on August 16, 2011, 11:22:03 am
About the only thing you can't build ahead of time is armor and crew/fuel/maintenance sections. All the avionics/electronics, engines, sensors and weapons can be built ahead of time.
EDIT: Oh, and cargo holds, but that's not military equipment. It can make an equally dramatic difference with larger craft. I have a 100-kiloton asteroid miner design that has a base build time of 1.68 years (20.16 months). By building the engines and mining modules ahead of time, I can drop the build time to about 8.5 months.
Post by: Ehndras on August 16, 2011, 11:26:07 am
About the only thing you can't build ahead of time is armor and crew/fuel/maintenance sections. All the avionics/electronics, engines, sensors and weapons can be built ahead of time.
I... Did not know that.
Good to know!
Post by: The13thRonin on August 16, 2011, 12:20:37 pm
Post by: Cerej on August 16, 2011, 05:40:53 pm
Quote from: Bremen
We have more important things to research than increased shipbuilding speed. Plus, seeing as we're producing small ships, more yards is a better strategy than faster yards.Hugely disagree. There are two priorities in making the most out of FACs. The first is maintaining a hefty speed advantage, and the second is maintaining a hefty tonnage advantage. Once we've upgraded our engine tech to ions, we're either looking at a several years project to increase engine tech again, or a several month project to gain a 40% increase in shipbuilding, slipway building, and refit speed. Unlike the other industrial techs, shipyard research offers huge, immediate advantages. Advantages which couple nicely with the inherently fast FAC construction speed. Ton for ton, FAC designs tend to build every bit as fast as larger ships. But the shipyards for FACs build much, much faster.
This is a recommendation to the other players, not an order. Research priorities should be as follows.
1: Finish Ion Engine technology.
2: Finish Composite armor technology.
3: Design and research the new generation of FAC engines.
4: Research Shipbuilding Rate 560 BP.
Recommending that the new generation of FACs field a 3-layer thick level of armor.
Future considerations: The enemy knows we have mesons. They are almost assuredly going to build a generation of lightly skinned warships. We should look into getting salvage ships so we can use the infidel's weapons against them. Not necessarily reverse engineering them, simply peeling a few off their wrecks and building some FACs around them.
Recommended industry use:
Do not build more meson PDCs. They cannot defend our shipyards, and if we lose our shipyards we will have lost long before troops try to land. Put every industrial complex towards building additional naval shipyards. These new shipyards should retool to the newest FAC design and begin building slipways. We have several years worth of minerals already in our stockpiles, and we've still got mines running. We have plenty of leeway to expand our shipbuilding capability.
Building more shipyards IS a gamble. It's less effective use of our surface industry compared to building components unless the shipyards survive for at least 3 years.
Post by: Bremen on August 16, 2011, 05:51:31 pm
Post by: Azkul on August 16, 2011, 05:55:13 pm
This is a recommendation to the other players, not an order. Research priorities should be as follows.
1: Finish Ion Engine technology.
2: Finish Composite armor technology.
3: Design and research the new generation of FAC engines and reactors.
4: Research Shipbuilding Rate 560 BP.
Post by: Cerej on August 16, 2011, 06:02:52 pm
If our goal is to increase FAC production the strategic decision is whether 2400 build points is better spent on more ships now, or more ships 4 years down the road (1 year to build the shipyard, and then 3 for the shipyard to be profitable). There's a lot of room in between the two extremes of build a shipyard starting now and never build more shipyards, however.
Post by: RedKing on August 17, 2011, 08:03:41 am
Bremen: We need to focus on more yards, not faster yards.
Cerej: No! We need faster yards. More yards is a waste if the enemy blows them up in the next year or two. Thus, recommended orders are to build more yards.
Bremen: I disagree. Yards are expensive.
Cerej: They are, but it's worth it after a few years.
Wha? ???
FWIW, here's the trade-off situation:
If we build new yards, the old ones can still be retooled/increased/producing while the new ones are being built. But we lose industrial capacity that could be making ship components.
If we build new slipways, it's cheaper and quicker in most cases than building new yards (when you factor in that new yards will have to be built up in capacity slightly). And the factories can be building engines, meson guns, etc. But the yards can't be retooled or increased while the slips are being built.
However, in both cases, production of FACs can continue. Given that a 2nd-generation FAC isn't going to be produced for some time until all the new engine, armor and reactor research is done (and possibly weapon research as well) and the new components designed and researched, the inability to retool in the near-future is not a problem.
Additionally, more yards is useful if you're going to have a wide variety of classes. If we're focusing on producing a lot of ships but just a couple of designs, then slipways is the way to go.
So....my recommendation would be to have our yards constantly adding slipways, our industrial capacity cranking out ship components, and once a stockpile of components is established, then we have the yards building ships at the same time they're adding slipways.
I had to go back and look at the data to be able to make concrete recommendations:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Azkul on August 17, 2011, 08:16:04 am
Post by: a1s on August 17, 2011, 12:48:55 pm
It may be beneficial to wait for a replacement for the Ashdod to be designed before building any new carriersThere's a suggestion going around that we should design a Battleship instead of a Carrier when new engine/reactor/armor tech arrives. Something fast and *very* armored (no, that's not a contradiction, but it does mean less guns). Heathens will also expect us to have mesons, and skimp on the armor in the new designs, so we might want to get a low level laser for this one...
Post by: RedKing on August 17, 2011, 01:07:22 pm
It may be beneficial to wait for a replacement for the Ashdod to be designed before building any new carriersThere's a suggestion going around that we should design a Battleship instead of a Carrier when new engine/reactor/armor tech arrives. Something fast and *very* armored (no, that's not a contradiction, but it does mean less guns). Heathens will also expect us to have mesons, and skimp on the armor in the new designs, so we might want to get a low level laser for this one...
At the current tech levels, large and fast are kinda mutually exclusive. Unless you're talking about having 80%+ of the mass dedicated to engines. And even then, you get diminishing returns from large numbers of engines (which entail large amounts of crew and fuel, which add mass, which slow down the ship, which requires more engines, ad infinitum). I'd actually suggest railguns over laser if we really do expect them to skimp on armor. Multiple hits, more aggregate damage. The main drawback to railguns is less armor penetration. If we're expecting aluminum-foil armor then it's a moot point. Of course, it also depends on what scientists we have (couldn't find the scientist data).
Post by: shadenight123 on August 17, 2011, 02:41:50 pm
and ... this is one of my project ships for the game i'm currently playing...i'm sure there's something wrong...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
in case there is nothing wrong...could it be implementable? (removing the missiles obviously)
Post by: a1s on August 17, 2011, 03:46:16 pm
At the current tech levels, large and fast are kinda mutually exclusive.Nonsense. The main curse of Aurora is that everything you build scales linearly. Meaning that you can make a 500 kiloton ship go as fast (/fail as often/shoot as far) as a 500 ton one by simply multiplying the component count by 1000. So we take our Hebron, replace the engines with newer models, throw out two of the turrets, add an extra layer of armor (or, preferably, 5) and increase component count 5 times. Voila! a 14k ton battleship with the speed rating of a destroyer.
Post by: Bremen on August 17, 2011, 03:54:34 pm
Okay, this disagreement makes no sense. I just re-read the last few posts and here's the distilled version:
Bremen: We need to focus on more yards, not faster yards.
Cerej: No! We need faster yards. More yards is a waste if the enemy blows them up in the next year or two. Thus, recommended orders are to build more yards.
Bremen: I disagree. Yards are expensive.
Cerej: They are, but it's worth it after a few years.
There's a difference between adding new shipyards (expensive, flat cost) and adding new slipways to existing yards (cost based on the tonnage of the yard; since we only need 1000 ton yards for the gunboats, my argument was that adding slipways is the way to go).
Post by: Azkul on August 17, 2011, 04:06:35 pm
what about going CIWS? (got no clue what these are, they just popped up while building a ship, after i began a research project on something-i can't seem- to recall)
and ... this is one of my project ships for the game i'm currently playing...i'm sure there's something wrong...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
in case there is nothing wrong...could it be implementable? (removing the missiles obviously)
You really need to read the tutorial (http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Main_Page#Tutorial_Information)
Post by: shadenight123 on August 17, 2011, 04:07:56 pm
what about going CIWS? (got no clue what these are, they just popped up while building a ship, after i began a research project on something-i can't seem- to recall)
and ... this is one of my project ships for the game i'm currently playing...i'm sure there's something wrong...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
in case there is nothing wrong...could it be implementable? (removing the missiles obviously)
You really need to read the tutorial (http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Main_Page#Tutorial_Information)
i actually "did" read it. i just wanted to experiment. >.>
Post by: Azkul on August 17, 2011, 04:16:09 pm
what about going CIWS? (got no clue what these are, they just popped up while building a ship, after i began a research project on something-i can't seem- to recall)
and ... this is one of my project ships for the game i'm currently playing...i'm sure there's something wrong...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
in case there is nothing wrong...could it be implementable? (removing the missiles obviously)
You really need to read the tutorial (http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Main_Page#Tutorial_Information)
i actually "did" read it. i just wanted to experiment. >.>
But that design is non-functional and wrong in so many ways
Post by: shadenight123 on August 17, 2011, 04:18:07 pm
what about going CIWS? (got no clue what these are, they just popped up while building a ship, after i began a research project on something-i can't seem- to recall)
and ... this is one of my project ships for the game i'm currently playing...i'm sure there's something wrong...Spoiler (click to show/hide)
in case there is nothing wrong...could it be implementable? (removing the missiles obviously)
You really need to read the tutorial (http://aurorawiki.pentarch.org/index.php?title=Main_Page#Tutorial_Information)
i actually "did" read it. i just wanted to experiment. >.>
But that design is non-functional and wrong in so many ways
yes. i wanted to see if it could "work". i'm actually expanding a shipyard just to see this monstruosity and aberration come to life.
>.> i'm mad.
Post by: Sheb on August 18, 2011, 04:03:09 am
-It is sooooooo slow, and has only short-ranged weapons. Any enemy will just stay out of range and pepper it.
-It has two missile fire control, no missiles, and no beam fire control.
-It has no sensors: you'll need a dedicated sensor ship.
-It produce 12units of power, and only need 6 .
Post by: shadenight123 on August 18, 2011, 04:30:27 am
-it has no armour, and the shield will only take in 4 points of damage.
-It is sooooooo slow, and has only short-ranged weapons. Any enemy will just stay out of range and pepper it.
-It has two missile fire control, no missiles, and no beam fire control.
-It has no sensors: you'll need a dedicated sensor ship.
-It produce 12units of power, and only need 6 .
i'll have to use a really fast sensor ship+tractor beam then! like chariots!...
*goes back to tinker*
Post by: a1s on August 18, 2011, 05:07:24 am
-It produce 12units of power, and only need 6 .BTW this reminds me, Aurora (at least what I remember of it from my last campaign in the 5.2x, someone needs to tell me if this changed) has poor power management: if you have 1 (or some low number) less reactors then guns, instead of one gun idling, all of them will take 5 more seconds to charge (when you have, say , 20 guns on a 15 second cycle that's kind of a big deal). So when we design the battleship, in needs to have 1 more reactor (or 10% more power, whichever is larger) then the guns take in, in case of damage.
Post by: Sheb on August 18, 2011, 05:48:51 am
That for your ship too shade: it,s better to have many small reactors: they take less time to research , and your ship won't loose all his weapons to a lucky shot.
A1s, can't we just stop firing one of the gun?
Post by: a1s on August 18, 2011, 06:14:20 am
A1s, can't we just stop firing one of the gun?*facepalm* yes. Yes we can. I'm an idiot.
in my defense: that's a shipload of micromanagement right there.
Post by: Azkul on August 18, 2011, 09:43:02 am
(http://www.img.ie/06c91.png)
Why are there 3 classes, Zulu, Yankee, and Dust, if only 2 classes were used in the battle?
Apologies if I just misunderstood something.
Post by: Bremen on August 18, 2011, 11:15:21 am
A1s, can't we just stop firing one of the gun?*facepalm* yes. Yes we can. I'm an idiot.
in my defense: that's a shipload of micromanagement right there.
Actually, it doesn't work. If you have 6 guns and 15 power generation, each gun gets 2.5 power every 5 seconds regardless of how many other guns are charging. At least that was my experience with beam ships in the new version.
Post by: Iituem on August 18, 2011, 04:44:30 pm
In this screenshot:(http://www.img.ie/06c91.png)
Why are there 3 classes, Zulu, Yankee, and Dust, if only 2 classes were used in the battle?
Apologies if I just misunderstood something.
From the shot, it looks like destroyed wrecks are automatically renamed Dust-Class.
Post by: DemonOfWrath on August 19, 2011, 01:11:09 am
Post by: shadenight123 on August 19, 2011, 03:31:09 am
...
we HAVE THE INSIGHT! WE KNOW THEM NOW!
and are "they" calling OUR ships...Dust?
i'm sooo going to kill them for the holy war.
Post by: Azkul on August 19, 2011, 06:16:30 am
Actually, that looks like a screenshot from the OTHER team, notice that the hostile contacts are 700 tonnes.
Yes, but I'm wondering why there are three types of enemy contacts in that screenshot, when we only used 2 different classes.
Post by: Sheb on August 19, 2011, 07:50:28 am
Post by: Daltesh on August 20, 2011, 09:21:57 pm
We don't have a whole lot of use for a carrier in single-system combat, so if we don't plan on going out-system soon, then it would make sense to retool our carrier shipyard to make warships.
Building ship components does make the construction go faster, but to get real returns out of it we would have to nearly halt our construction factory construction. Mostly this is bad because we don't have a lot of construction factories in the first place. I suppose it's a trade off between the short term benefit of additional tonnage and the long term benefit of being able to make even more tonnage.
Building missiles would take a really, really long time, since we would need to research a half dozen or so techs and then build an entire new industrial base of ordinance factories just to start actually making missiles, much less ships with missile capabilities.
Also as a question for Sheb: I don't know if it has been mentioned, but do Earth and Mars contain ruins? It would make sense considering the backstory, but it would be a really strong motivator for us to try and stop them from claiming both planets.
Post by: Sheb on August 21, 2011, 02:36:44 am
Post by: Daltesh on August 21, 2011, 03:16:51 am
If you don't want to tell us, I think we should geosurvey the inner planets soon, just to avoid having the enemy gain the potentially massive advantage that can come from ruin excavation. Entire new technologies, boatloads of minerals and components, and not to mention tons of high tech missiles. I think that could pretty easily tip the scales in the Mercurian's favor.
In all honesty I assume there aren't any ruins, simply because that'd be really weird what with having to translate them, and give a distinct advantage to the mercury guys since they have the inner system. I figured I'd ask just in case though.
Post by: Sheb on August 21, 2011, 03:49:16 am
As for missiles, I'll destroy any missiles found in ruins and replace them with a nerfed equivalent. So do not count on ruins for your ballistic needs.
Oh, and colonization of earth at least isn't a good idea:radiation means a3% negative pop growth and a 30% negative industry output. And that apply to auto mines as well.
Post by: RedKing on August 22, 2011, 08:22:19 am
Problem is, how do we interdict them when we got curbstomped in the last skirmish? Geosurvey data would be handy, but we'd have to send a very well-concealed ship and it would have to maintain position for several weeks. And if I were the kaffir, I'd be posting permanent sentinels over Mars and Earth just for that reason. If they've done any kind of upgrades to their tracking station, they'll probably be able to spot even a survey FAC over Earth. Might be able to sneak one into Mars if we time it right so that Mercury is occluded by the Sun.
It's an interesting idea. Wouldn't take a lot of resources, one survey FAC (basically just an engine, enough fuel to get there and back, and a geosurvey sensor. Should top out around 1200 tons or so.) and a pilot brave enough to make the run. Once surveyed, we could send a xenology team without even having to transport them (unless Sheb has turned off the "Assign anywhere" option). For that matter, if the FAC run is successful, the same FAC could make a 2nd run to drop off the team. Transporting the engineer brigade is a lot trickier.
Post by: Sheb on August 22, 2011, 09:04:32 am
Of course, the Surcey FAC could just drop them as he is surveying the planet.
Post by: RedKing on August 22, 2011, 09:33:53 am
Team have to be moved by ships. Otherwise, you could just create a colony on Mercury and teleport spies there.True but if the FAC is caught out in the open and destroyed, you lose the team as well. If it were me, I'd send the FAC empty the first time just to gauge if they're gonna get caught or not.
Of course, the Surcey FAC could just drop them as he is surveying the planet.
Post by: Sheb on August 22, 2011, 10:02:07 am
Post by: RedKing on August 22, 2011, 09:39:58 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Based on mock-up simulations, with a thermal sig of 63, they'd have to have at least 9 tracking stations on Mercury to detect it (assuming no research boosts to sensor strength) within Earth's orbit, and that's only if Mercury is near perigee. It would take 12 stations to detect it within Mars orbit near perigee. If we time a mission to be roughly when Mercury is at apogee, we should be thoroughly safe so long as they haven't left sentries. The Doha should have more than enough speed to outrun anything we've seen so far, the main problem would be a lack of sensors to detect enemies. Could tack on a small thermal sensor (say 0.5 size), although that drops the speed from 7000 km/s to 6461 km/s. Plus, I don't see the observed thermal signature for the enemy classes, so I don't know if that's sufficient range or overkill.
Post by: Sheb on August 23, 2011, 02:57:38 am
Post by: MarcAFK on August 23, 2011, 03:52:17 am
Post by: shadenight123 on August 23, 2011, 04:26:39 am
(Posting to watch) Seriously what's the point of the notify button?
a notify button EXISTS!? OH MY GOD.
Post by: MarcAFK on August 23, 2011, 09:54:47 am
Post by: Sheb on August 26, 2011, 08:43:16 am
A new slipway is added on the Benevolent shipyard. Orders are given for a new Hufuf to be laid. Another slipway is also under construction.
20th of February
Much alarm today as a Werewolf was detected moving toward Titan. It soon turned away, and it is now circling round the Asteroid Belt. The Kaffir obviously decided to patrol it to prevent us from moving in!
15th of April
3 Hufufs were finished today. To save on maintenance, they are stocked in the Ashdod's hangar, which is now more crowded than the Great Souk on a market day. (Yeah, apparently there is a bug that let you land more parasites than the Mothership is supposed to handle. The Ashdod now has -28 hangar capacity left. :p I'll RP that as the fact that more FAC can be stowed in the Ashdod when it's not moving, but the extra FACs will have to go out once the Ashdod go somewhare.)
Orders were given for three more Hufufs to be produced.
18th of June
May Allah be praised! Abdul Al-Azred, that some were starting to nickname “The Mad Arab” for his scientific delusions, just proved his worth again. He made the first Ion Engines prototype and say he can design working models. New versions of the B'ewed and Jewad were ordered, as well as new reactors using the Gas-Cooled technology. Our new FACs should be
28th of June
Working overnight, Al-Azred has finished the new B'ewed FAC engine. However, the High Command decide to wait until new armor technology is available to produce the Hufuf Mk.II.
3rd of July
A new Hufuf is built. A new one is laid down.
8th of July
The Jewad-B is finished. New design of the Ashdod and Hebron are created. Again the high command decide to wait for better armor, but preliminary study show the new design can manae 3,000 km/s, going a long way toward closing the speed gap between them and the Kaffir's ships.
18th of July
With the completion of the new Kanwen-B reactor, Al-Azred is now free to pursue research into armor technology. He is promising results by the end of October.
8th of September
Three new Hufufs were completed today, bringing our total to 34. Three more are ordered. They should be finished by the end of January 1545, exactly when the fifth slipway will be finished. After that, the Benevolent shipyard will be retooled to produce Hufuf Mk.II.
23rd of October
Al-Azred has produced a new kind of armour, a alliage of Duranium and Neutronium stronger than any material known to man. The stronger “Composite” armour allow us to do with less armour weigh for the same protection. Using new engines, power plant and armour, new designs were drafted for approval by the High Council.
Spoiler: New Design (click to show/hide)
23rd of November
A new Hufuf was produced. No more were laid down as the shipyard need to be emptied before being retooled to produce the new Hufufs
8th of December
Al-Azred, cloturing his Annus Mirabilis wrote a treaty on the managing of factories that'll greatly expand our manufacturing capability. He says he want to write another treaty over the correct management of laboratories, that should be ready by the end of next year.
13th of December
Al-Azred was awarded new power by the Caliph, making him even more efficient in his research. He now says he can finish his treaty before October!
Post by: Sheb on August 26, 2011, 08:43:53 am
Spoiler: Current Order Of Battle (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Titan (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Technologies (click to show/hide)
Slowly but surely, the LP advance.
Post by: Azkul on August 26, 2011, 09:17:59 am
I thought he was researching construction
Post by: Sheb on August 26, 2011, 09:20:40 am
Post by: Azkul on August 26, 2011, 09:24:49 am
Didn't see that bit.
Post by: Azkul on August 26, 2011, 09:32:05 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Are there any planetary bodies near Titan which have enough minerals to be used as productive mining colonies?
Post by: Sheb on August 26, 2011, 09:34:01 am
Post by: thobal on August 29, 2011, 06:33:53 pm
EDIT:
Or better yet, Drones! Drones with big ass sensors to annoy the hell out of the Mercurians! And then some drones the same size with just enough armament to be dangerous in numbers! That way, these drones can be safely used as decoys when the time comes for a decisive battle. The mercurians will see the drones and believe it to be a ruse, as the drones are always harmless. "Just another crowd of recon drones" but then BAM! Missiles and whatnot pop out of some of the drones! Plus, the drones must never appear alone. Not next to each other during their recon runs or anything. Widely spaced to really take in the inner solar system and keep a single ship from enguaging more than one or two.
As an added benefit to annoying the enemy, this plan should provide us with valuable tactical data on enemy shipping.
Ignore all of this if drones cant be recovered, go with some sort of similar long range fighter.
I think once our tech levels get a bit higher, we should commission a line of Fast Frigates.
That, or some big battlecruiser to outrange, outgun, and outrun whatever the hell they shot at us. Just pound away at it from outside of firing range. A direct response to their design.
IMPORTANT BIT
We still have an advantage. They dont know what our capitol ships are like, so while they are upgrading randomly, we can tune our weapons to match theirs. But we need more data. As sun-tzu put it, "Know thy enemy, know thy self."
Post by: a1s on September 01, 2011, 02:19:43 pm
That, or some big battlecruiser to outrange, outgun, and outrun whateverWe went into meson tech, which means we can neither outrange, nor outgun (our best bet with mesons is to get as close as possible and have some extra armor so we could take the hits while we wait for their fuel tanks to explode). We could take lasers as a parallel second branch, but that would keep us 1 level behind on both (in actuality, probably a bit less).
Also, drones can't be recovered, no. And I think they're getting the missile-nerf.
Seconding Fast
Post by: RedKing on September 07, 2011, 09:06:22 am
Post by: MarcAFK on September 07, 2011, 09:19:29 am
Post by: a1s on September 07, 2011, 11:08:41 am
Post by: Ehndras on September 07, 2011, 12:03:37 pm
Post by: Journier on September 07, 2011, 02:52:17 pm
Post by: a1s on September 12, 2011, 08:24:01 am
...Or someone can take over unilaterally (play as the Heathen Mecuians and take down orders/tell us what is going on with our faction) though the appeal of this thread came to a large degree from it being a workable implementation of Aurora multiplayer :-\
Post by: shadenight123 on September 12, 2011, 08:29:11 am
so, in someone wants to spacemaster, but doesn't know french, he just has to send me the turn in english, and i can translate the french part in french.
Post by: Sheb on September 13, 2011, 03:42:08 am
However, french cemetaries are really lacking in internet connection, si I couldn't update. I should resume this in a week or so, with more regulars update as university start.
Post by: MarcAFK on September 13, 2011, 07:07:05 am
However, french cemetaries are really lacking in internet connection, si I couldn't update.Shit, how do the ghosts keep up with their twitter?
EDIT: Good to see you back, that trip sounded like a blast.
Post by: shadenight123 on September 13, 2011, 08:05:06 am
Actually, some hitchiking trip of mine just went apeshitly awesome. I ended up digging for gold in the south of France, getting all liquored up in awesomly cheap place in Barcelona (3 euros for 2 cl of Liquor? And a botlle of soft? And free shots and water at the end?), washing in French cemetaries at two in the morning and generally doing great.
However, french cemetaries are really lacking in internet connection, si I couldn't update. I should resume this in a week or so, with more regulars update as university start.
...
i think i know were to spend a good time. *off to barcelona*
Post by: RedKing on September 15, 2011, 12:06:27 pm
Actually, some hitchiking trip of mine just went apeshitly awesome. I ended up digging for gold in the south of France, getting all liquored up in awesomly cheap place in Barcelona (3 euros for 2 cl of Liquor? And a botlle of soft? And free shots and water at the end?), washing in French cemetaries at two in the morning and generally doing great.
Damn. Now I see why people used to tell me to go backpacking in Europe. All you need to add is finding a lost treasure and evading pygmy cannibals and you've got yourself a pulp fiction novel. :D
Post by: Sheb on September 16, 2011, 01:17:21 pm
Anyway, I need orders if you want updates.
Post by: Boksi on September 16, 2011, 01:53:13 pm
I evaded a gay trucker, does that count? :pHe said pygmy cannibals, so it'd only count if it was a gay pygmy cannibal trucker.
Although I do think he actually meant midget, not pygmy, since pygmies are found mostly in Africa, not Europe.
Post by: shadenight123 on September 16, 2011, 01:56:21 pm
then bomb and destroy the hell out of everything which comes through the "sol" jumpgate.
Post by: thobal on September 16, 2011, 05:31:06 pm
sheb! let's try and research ways to get the hell out of this system. explore a new one, and transfer our everything there!.
then bomb and destroy the hell out of everything which comes through the "sol" jumpgate.
Bump that! We need a crash recon fighter program and start aggressively scouting the inner solar system. Learn the exact composition and disposition of the enemy fleet before designing ships around their fleet. Embarking on some hair brained scheme to search aimlessly for a habitable planet would be foolish at this juncture.
They just slaughtered a bunch of our pilots. They want a war, I say we give it to them. We need light ships that can stay out of their weapons radii and just chip away at them. But first we need better information on their ships and weapons.
My vote:Design and Build recon drones and recon fighters. Gather Intelligence on Enemy Equipment and Dispositions
Post by: Sheb on September 16, 2011, 05:45:45 pm
Also, the gay trucker was kinda short (1m 60 something) but not a midget.
Post by: shadenight123 on September 17, 2011, 02:09:18 am
build jump gate constructor.
search for jump spot
jump away and look for suitable planet with minerals. or system with minerals.
colonize it.
transfer everything on new system
build war ships that can shoot down things coming from the "sol" jump gate.
Post by: thobal on September 17, 2011, 04:36:07 am
RESEARCH
Develop Lightly/Un-Armed Probe with large active sensors. (reusable if (research time < 1 turn && productionTime < .5turn))
PRODUCTION
ASAP: Begin construction of said probes.
Produce capitol ships.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Post by: Sheb on September 17, 2011, 05:12:42 am
But yeah, they are outclassed, since a new class of gunboat was designed. You should start producing that one instead.
As for the light probe, do you want a single-use, drone-carried probe (a missile with sensors) or a GB with large sensors? If the latter, you could just use a Mesrin.
Post by: thobal on September 17, 2011, 12:14:30 pm
Can the Mesrin out run the know enemy vessels, cross the inner solar system and make it back? If so, I say start sending them in pairs and quartets(or just a few alone) to try and discover the designs and disposition of the enemy fleet.
Active sensors get you designs, right?
I'm thinking maybe a cheap, single use probe to test the enemy firing ranges if not.
Post by: Sheb on September 17, 2011, 08:07:07 pm
Post by: thobal on September 18, 2011, 07:46:09 pm
RESEARCH
Design weapons with Range ~155,000km
Post by: Zebulon on September 19, 2011, 05:18:10 am
One question for Sheb, though - what's our capacitor recharge rate tech? I'm not that familiar with beam weapons, but it seems like we need a capacitor recharge of at least 3 to get the current Hufuf guns. It's not listed in the tech report but I can't figure out how you built those guns without it.
-
We're not going to be beating them on range any time soon. Particle beams have good range and the damage is flat across the whole range - tinkering with the game, it'd take us two steps up on both Laser research trees to get a laser that could outrange them, and even then it would only do one damage per shot due to the damage falloff. Of course if they switch to lightly armored ships because of our mesons, that would be a nice surprise... but we'd need like, 6000 total RP for the focal size and (I imagine) another 6000 RP for whatever the range tech is called. Our EW guy also has a whopping 0% research rate.
Sidenote - holy crap, that's a lot of construction/production guys. With that scientist load out, staying the course and swarming the enemy with sheer tonnage is probably our best bet - the actual quality of the ships can lag somewhat. On the subject of research; when we get time, we should probably invest in a military academy or two. It might be too little too late, but getting some more diversified scientists would be great (or, you know, dozens of extra navy/ground officers we don't need. Maybe it's not a gamble worth taking.). Also, maybe we should divert one lab (especially if it's only going to make the tech come a few days earlier) to Bahrami so he has a chance to get that 0% EW rating up some?
FAKE EDIT: All the numbers down there assume the new Hufuf Mk II. For the curious, the current Hufufs take 42 seconds to close the range (which speaks to the fact engine tech is really a lot more valuable here)
I fiddled with some numbers, thinking that maybe if we increased the Hufuf's meson cannon's range a little, we could lower the time it takes to close to firing range enough to matter. It currently takes 24 seconds (5 rounds). If we increased the caliber on the mesons (which is a tech we already have), we would get down to a 20.something seconds (which I think wouldn't matter because we still wouldn't be there until the fifth round). Unfortunately, that also decreases the rate of fire to 10 seconds, which is bad; we'd need another level of capacitor recharge rate to fix that. Adding another level of focusing tech would get us an 80,000 km range, which decreases it to 16 seconds (four rounds).
Of course the kaffir will certainly be researching their own stuff, and particle beams get a lot more range per level*. :-\ I'm not sure the rather small gains are really worth it compared to just getting faster Hufufs, but new engines are RP intensive and we do technically have an Energy Weapons guy.
*(by the same token they may think they have a good enough range advantage and focus on other tech; who knows!)
-
I think another year spent massing Hufufs and improving our ability to outbuild the enemy isn't exactly one wasted, in any case.
Also we should probably prioritize getting a shipyard that can build Mersin; call me paranoid, but in the unlikely chance we lose the two we currently have it'd suck to have to rely on the Ashdod's active sensors. If they're capable of acting as recon craft, this would also let us afford to use/lose some in that role.
Speaking of recon... This is probably a stupid and/or crazy idea, but we could make another feint into the asteroid belt. I'm thinking either a minimal force intended to lure out the enemy, let us get a snapshot of them, and then retreat (which has a good chance of losing us a freighter), or a large enough force that can take out a couple of Werewolves intending to come and investigate. I'm thinking either they reveal more of their fleet to us, or we can use it as a sort of ambush. I don't know if the FACs really have enough range to get out there and back on their own, though, and an Ashdod's not gonna outrun 'em in any case.
Post by: Sheb on October 01, 2011, 10:23:51 am
17 of January
Yesterday was a day of grief and sorrow all over the land. Our beloved Caliph, that fell ill as the new year came, died after two weeks of painful agony.
His death sent ripples of fear throughout the realm. Some said he was poisoned, other that the kaffirs had spies among us, ready to strike at our leadership. Worse still, prominent clerics started arguing that by loosing so many ships, the Caliph and angered God himself, eroding the very base of our power.
As if that wasn't bad enough, the Caliph's son, Jamar, is barely 8, and much to young to protect the Caliphate. As such, the Council appointed me regent, to rules until Jamar's sixteenth birthday.
Seeing as we're so far behing the Kaffir in military power, I immediately ordered a new shipyard built to build the new Mesrin. I also modified the blueprint for the Hebron Mk.II, making it even faster, and ordered the shipyards to retool to produce the new classes.
Spoiler: Hebron Mk.II (click to show/hide)
I also assigned a single lab to Badhra Barhami, our energy weapon “Specialist”, hoping for his skills to improve.
26th of January
A slipway had been added to the Benevolent shipyard. It'll now be retooled to produce Hufuf Mk.II. Once this is done, we will refit our existing fleet to the new standard.
1st of February
The three lasts Hufufs have been built. From now on, all ships will use the new, more modern template.
16th of February
A set of Construction Factories have been built, bringing our total to 190. We can now start work on the new shipyard.
6th of March
The Benevolent can now produce Hufuf Mk.II. Refit are quite expensives, but given the superiority of the new design, it is worth it. A new slipway will be added, to help refitting our whole fleet.
1st of May
The Merciful shipyard has been extanded to accommodate ships of up to 15,000 tons. It'll now retool to produce the new Ashdod Mk.II.
11th of July
The first 5 Hufuf Mk.II have been completed, work now start of refitting the next 5 Hufufs.
16th of August
We can now produce Hebron Mk.II. Our old Hebrons are being retooled as we speak.
21st of September
Abdul Al-Azred, our genius construction specialist, disappeared today in mysterious circumstances. Neighbors speak of weird shapes and weirder sounds coming from his basement at night, but investigation showed nothing but a strange, foul-smelling ooze.
With the death of our Caliph, the death of our best oulema is another blow to the Caliphate. Al-azred's disciple, Jamal Ben Ali will continue his work, but he's not as skilled as his master, and the project won't be ready until the end of January.
Due to Jamal's lower adminsitrative skills, some labs couldn't be used, and were set to continue research on Jump Point Theory.
16 Novembre
Five more Hufufs Mk.II have been completed.
1st of January 1546
This year was harsh on us. The death of Al-Azred, coming right after the Caliph's, shook us all. However, the new Hufufs feel me with pride, and I cannot wait to see them used to crush the infidels.
May Allah grant us victory!
Post by: Sheb on October 01, 2011, 10:30:02 am
Spoiler: Current Order Of Battle (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Titan (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Technologies (click to show/hide)
Post by: Stworca on October 01, 2011, 10:47:53 am
Post by: Sheb on October 01, 2011, 10:58:44 am
Now, orders for me?
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 01, 2011, 11:04:49 am
I swear to God I shall never let this one die, but necro it again and again.
We expect nothing less, and a lot more.
Post by: Stworca on October 01, 2011, 11:12:31 am
I swear to God I shall never let this one die, but necro it again and again.
Now, orders for me?
No idea, i have never played Aurora. :o (it's on my TO DO list, but there are many things above it.. so.)
Be mean to aliens and waltz all over their lawns.
Post by: shadenight123 on October 01, 2011, 05:09:51 pm
how about:
build 60 more automines
research mining production increased of one.
Post by: RedKing on October 03, 2011, 11:49:44 am
i realized it just now...
how about:
build 60 more automines
research mining production increased of one.
What?? No. Just....no. ???
We have 10K+ of ever mineral and a good mining return already. And if we did want to boost mining production, why in the name of Allah would we build automines? We have 89 million people sitting around doing nothing, and automines cost twice as much to build.
Post by: shadenight123 on October 03, 2011, 11:51:44 am
i realized it just now...
how about:
build 60 more automines
research mining production increased of one.
What?? No. Just....no. ???
We have 10K+ of ever mineral and a good mining return already. And if we did want to boost mining production, why in the name of Allah would we build automines? We have 89 million people sitting around doing nothing, and automines cost twice as much to build.
we ship them to other places and other asteroids, to generate heat signatures.
Post by: RedKing on October 03, 2011, 11:55:50 am
I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like that. Mineral packets don't generate heat signatures (or any signature, AFAIK). And if you're talking about using freighters, we could build and ship empty freighters to do the same thing.i realized it just now...
how about:
build 60 more automines
research mining production increased of one.
What?? No. Just....no. ???
We have 10K+ of ever mineral and a good mining return already. And if we did want to boost mining production, why in the name of Allah would we build automines? We have 89 million people sitting around doing nothing, and automines cost twice as much to build.
we ship them to other places and other asteroids, to generate heat signatures.
EDIT: Ahh, ok...you want to generate Thermal and EM signatures from the microcolonies. To what end? Spamming their sensor readouts?
Post by: shadenight123 on October 03, 2011, 12:08:03 pm
so we do not reduce our own mining rate while we transfer them, and in case we get harassed during the transfer, we have spares.
Post by: RedKing on October 03, 2011, 12:50:29 pm
If missiles weren't nerfed, I'd say we could spam small missile PDCs onto half a dozen rocks in close proximity, with one larger mining base in the area to lure them in. But that won't work in this scenario. And all other weapons are far too short of a range to pull such a trap.
Post by: shadenight123 on October 03, 2011, 01:06:41 pm
i know i tend to speak all sun-tzu like, but, the point is that by placing tokens, in different places, we would have an hindsight on where they want to go, we could make them burn fuels, or even go all "what s the point in attacking twenty different objectives made of one single automine? let's ignore it!" then we just swap the automines with armed pdcs.
then, after a while, when they start pondering why some asteroids are increasing in heat signals, they'll discover they have become fortified positions.
or if they go all round attacking anything they waste fuel and ammo, and depending on the circumstances, we could ambush them on a lonely asteroid, by sending one automine, waiting for their fleet to come, and destroy it, since they wouldn't expect armed defenses if we let three or four automines get destroyed.
imho it would be difficult to pull off, but not impossible.
Post by: RedKing on October 03, 2011, 04:06:27 pm
I'm beginning to see your strategy.
@Sheb: What's the speed of the Hufuf II? I couldn't find it listed.
Post by: Sheb on October 03, 2011, 11:48:30 pm
Post by: RedKing on October 04, 2011, 09:03:58 am
I'll have to play around with this in the simulator.
Post by: Ehndras on October 04, 2011, 11:30:53 am
Not so much with an AI, but against a human player...
It would only work once, maybe twice, though. A human player would either send a large fleet to eradicate targets in anger, or bunker down on their colony so as to conserve ammo and ships.
If we're going to use this decoy, we have to play smart. We need to make the PDC decoys small enough to take out a few ships then be destroyed, showing we can be defeated, or have a strike force nearby. Possibly, we can even attack their colonies while they have ships distracted.
There are so many possibilities and ways thing could go wrong, we need to prepare for them all.
Post by: shadenight123 on October 04, 2011, 11:56:53 am
because by doing that we can exploit anything on the sol system and increase our production and mining rate.
the only thing which can go wrong is them going straight for our planet when our ships are away, but if we keep pdc in constant production some are bound to be on planet in case of their strikes.
Post by: Ehndras on October 04, 2011, 01:29:13 pm
Either way, there are dozens of manners in which to exploit their human traits. ;)
Post by: MonkeyHead on October 04, 2011, 01:34:41 pm
Post by: shadenight123 on October 04, 2011, 01:44:51 pm
Post by: Sheb on October 16, 2011, 02:59:34 am
Anyway, thanks you all for playing, it was very fun while it lasted. :)
Post by: Ehndras on October 16, 2011, 03:16:45 am
Post by: MarcAFK on October 16, 2011, 07:51:46 am
Post by: Sheb on October 16, 2011, 08:19:32 am
Available Solar Body:
-Venus
-Titan
-Mars
-Mercury
-Io, Ganymede and Callisto
You can also ask for a large asteroid (Ceres or something). You'll get free orbital habitat for 1,25 time the starting pop and a couple free asteroid miners.
I also want each team to write some fluff. The Earth will probably be home to some kind of Imperial authority, so it's better if you play colonist/corporation or something.
P.S. This is only an interest check. If enough people want it, I'll start another thread.
Post by: Ehndras on October 16, 2011, 08:24:20 am
Post by: shadenight123 on October 16, 2011, 08:27:08 am
and all hail the Neo-italian government!
Post by: Sheb on October 16, 2011, 08:33:29 am
A) Find at least one teammate.
B) Write an history. This can wait until I publish the world's history. Any preference on that one? I feel like something along this line: large clampdown against the Occupy Wall St. movement lead to more protest and more clampdown, ending in a world corpocracy. Large corporation (feel free to play a real one or a fake one. I'd find it hilarious to have an iVenus using high-tech, expensive and well-designed ships) control their own worlds and struggle for influence on Earth's Administration Council. Penal colonies of protesters on other planets are also fighting for independence, or incorporated themselves.
Would that suit you?
Post by: Kynrael on October 16, 2011, 08:58:12 am
If anyone is looking for a teammate it would be awesome :)
I like the idea of struggling corporations, each enforcing their own ideologies while trying to bring Earth under their control. It can bring interesting political gameplay !
Post by: Sheb on October 16, 2011, 09:18:55 am
Control of the EBD depend on shares. Each corporation start with 5 shares. You can either buy new shares for 1000 wealth each, or from other players. Other Earth-based corporations (Aka, me) own a certain amount of share. It basically means that the EBD begins as a NPC but can become a player's toys as the game go on.
Anyone can submit a resolution to the EBD (Use the EBD fleet to nuke Mercury, grant a concession for 100 factories to the Mars Mining Corp., invest in PDCs near JP...), then everyone vote.
Post by: Burnt Pies on October 16, 2011, 11:40:16 am
Post by: Sheb on October 16, 2011, 01:02:25 pm
Post by: Boksi on October 16, 2011, 01:04:06 pm
Post by: LostCosmonaut on October 16, 2011, 01:33:59 pm
Post by: Iituem on October 16, 2011, 01:59:47 pm
Post by: Sheb on October 16, 2011, 02:11:25 pm
I'm thinking of doing 3 kinds of factions.
Planet Corporation: Start with a planet, 500 mil people, 10 shares, and 250 factories (You decide how many of those are refineries, mines, fighter factories etc etc...) and a powerful military fleet.
Penal Colonies: Start with a planet, 750 mil people, 350 factories, no shares, weak fleet.
Asteroid Mining Corp: Start with two/three asteroid bases, a total of 500 mil people, orbital hab for 750mil people, 250 factories, 10 shares, a weak naval fleet, but a powerful civilian ones (including asteroid miners.)
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 16, 2011, 03:00:52 pm
Post by: Sheb on October 16, 2011, 03:02:16 pm
Post by: LostCosmonaut on October 16, 2011, 03:03:20 pm
Post by: RedKing on October 17, 2011, 12:36:35 pm
Or....how about a faction of bio-engineered colonists? Maybe a population that was genetically modified to work on Titan or Mars, and rebelled. Now they have their freedom, but they're ostracized from "normals" and can't live on Earth or any of the other terraformed worlds. Could lead to interesting extra-Solar conflicts if they find rich worlds that are habitable to them, but the human factions want to claim them and terraform them.
Post by: Sheb on October 17, 2011, 02:39:02 pm
I don't think there is room for a mercenary faction yet, maybe later when there is more conflicts.
Post by: Iituem on October 17, 2011, 05:39:52 pm
Post by: Boksi on October 17, 2011, 05:49:32 pm
Also, how about naming the coporation Chthonian Combine? Chthonian means 'beneath the earth', so it's a good name for a mining corporation, while Combine refers to it being a merger between several big mining companies and is in no way picked for an ominous sound. Because we're totally the good guys.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 17, 2011, 06:22:48 pm
Post by: Burnt Pies on October 17, 2011, 06:55:38 pm
Not sure as to names just yet.
Post by: Iituem on October 18, 2011, 02:53:53 am
Post by: Boksi on October 18, 2011, 04:25:43 am
Factory distribution is mostly mines, of course, but we need some labs and factories too. I assume we'll be getting an orbital habitat in orbit of some big asteroid, so that's where the labs and factories would go. I've also got some ideas for a long-term strategy, but nothing concrete yet.
Post by: USEC_OFFICER on October 18, 2011, 06:57:28 am
Factory distribution is mostly mines, of course, but we need some labs and factories too. I assume we'll be getting an orbital habitat in orbit of some big asteroid, so that's where the labs and factories would go.
This is probably the best choice. As long as we throw a couple shipyards. We'll need them.
Long term strategy should be to make the most profit. We're a corperation, remember? The more money we can get our greedy paws on the better.
Post by: RedKing on October 18, 2011, 07:05:52 am
Post by: Sheb on October 18, 2011, 01:29:25 pm
Post by: Sheb on October 18, 2011, 03:44:52 pm
Post by: RedKing on October 18, 2011, 03:55:57 pm
Hmm...I'm thinking it could be a fascinating game to bend the rules a bit and play as a race that was *perfectly* engineered for Titan (by doing the "Create Empire" in SM mode)
Such that:
Methane-breathing (which you can't do with in-game genetics modification)
Gravity tolerance from 0.32 to 0.74 (so Mother Earth will be off-limits with serious gene-tinkering)
Methane pressure requirements from 0.036 to 0.124
Temperature tolerance from -207C to -149C
Max atmospheric pressure of 2.3atm.
Essentially, they'd be an alien faction. I've played some methane-breathers in solo games and it can lead to an interesting sort of co-existence with some NPRs, where they take the N-O worlds in the inner portions of systems, and I take the NH4 worlds in the outer portions of systems. I see a niche for the Titanians as surveyors and miners of those hard-to-work NH4 worlds, trading resources for tech or cash (maybe a Wealth Creation and/or Industrial penalty to compensate for the fact that NH4 worlds are likely to be more plentiful than N-O ones?)
I'm sort of taking some of my inspiration from the Free Drones in Alien Crossfire. These guys have been essentially slave labor for one or more of the corporate factions, and after revolting and disposing of the Garrison Battalion on Titan, they've expropriated all the facilities on Titan and declared themselves an independent world. Though they were careful to at least pay lip service to Terran Imperial authority, to avoid having the Empire drop the hammer on them. For its part, the Empire might see a free Titan as a useful counterweight to the growing power of the corporations in the outer system, and they don't have to worry about them as a threat because the Titanians can't survive on Earth or Venus due to gravity, and would fare extremely poorly on Mars and Mercury because of temperature and atmosphere differences.
I see Titan as either Communist, Ordered Socialist, Stalin Communist, or possibly a Rigid Democracy. That would actually work well with the Wealth Creation penalty, too. What could be better than a Democratic People's Republic of Titan full of methane-breathing Communists struggling against the decadent bourgeois imperialists of the Inner System? :P
Post by: Ehndras on October 18, 2011, 04:42:20 pm
I LOVE your idea of methane-breathers, actually. I'm also trying to go for a not-exactly-human race, preferably on Venus, but Sheb said he doesn't really want non-humans in Sol. :\ I think it'd be an awesome counter-measure to balance the game since there are some moons/planets Humans can't colonize, and it'd be awesome for US not to be able to colonize Earth and such. On my side, I wanted cold-resistant genetically-altered humans by the name of the Arkhan'a Imperium, a sort of Roman-esque empire structure with their people base on the Nords.
As Sheb suggested, we could be 'inserted' later-on into a different system.
Actually... How about me and you team up, my guys take the cold oxygen and you take the cold methane? That'll still leave the warm worlds for Humans to colonize, BUT, it'll give us our own little niche. ;)