Post by: Think0028 on July 19, 2011, 10:44:14 am
Welcome to Beginner's Mafia XXV!
Keep on the Borderlands
Keep on the Borderlands
Introduction
This version of the game is aimed specifically at players who are new to Mafia, or are still relatively inexperienced. Here, it's more about having fun and learning than anything else, so don't give up hope if you find yourself in a bad position!
This Beginners' Mafia will feature playing ICs. This means that two more experienced people will join in the game to help you guys out and will actually be playing in the game. They can also be scum too, so always stay suspicious!
The ICs will never lie to you about the game mechanics though, and will usually have a special IC voice to use when they want to teach you guys, since their goal will be to get you guys ready for a real Mafia game. Just because they're playing doesn't mean you can't learn!
Gameplay and Concept
In Mafia, you are divided into two parts: 7 Town players and 2 Mafia players:
If you are Town, your goal is to lynch the Mafia. You do this by convincing others that one of the group is scum, and getting enough votes on them to lynch them. The Town does not know who else is Town.
If you are Mafia, your goal is to kill off the Town until there is an equal number of them to you by getting them to lynch other Town or by killing them. You are given a kill each Night to kill any player in the game. All the Mafia members know each other, and can communicate privately.
Each Day, everyone votes to lynch a player. Vote for a player by posting their name in red. You may change your vote at any time, remove your vote, or vote for No Lynch. Whoever has the most votes at the end of the day gets lynched, even if there is no majority. (Example: Nobody votes except for one guy, who votes Generic_Steve. Generic_Steve would get lynched). If you have a great deal of suspicion for someone, but don't want to vote for them just yet, point their name out in blue.
The Day will not end prematurely unless people vote to shorten the day. That is, there is no "hammer" in Beginner's Mafia, where X amount of votes (more than 50%) on a single person immediately ends the day with a lynch on that person. Some games do that, but not this one, and you would be explicitly informed in the rules if the hammer is active.
If there are tied votes for who gets lynched at the end of the day, the day ends in a no-lynch. (Two people vote for Generic_Steve, two people vote for Unassuming_Mary. Nobody gets lynched.)
Each Night, you send in your actions. The cycle continues until one side wins. Days are 72 hours and nights are 24 hours. Weekends count for zero hours.
Rules and Guidelines
- You may not PM other players other than the mod. The mafia will have a place to talk to themselves.
- Never edit your posts, even to fix typos! If you make a mistake, just double post- it's permitted here. Violation of this rule can lead to deadly repercussions. I recommend using the preview button every time you post.
- Never quote your role PM or any other PM sent to you by the mod.
- If you need more time to discuss, you may ask for an extension. If more players ask for one than those who decline one, the day will be extended by 48 hours.
- There are no limit to the number of extensions allowed per day.
- Please don't forget about this game if you sign up! If you cannot continue playing, please ask for a replacement! I will prod you via PM if you do not post in 48 hours to remind you that this game exists!
- Note that a Mafia game usually takes a long time to finish: two weeks at least, and sometimes even longer than a month. Be ready for this.
- Upon receiving your second prod, you are forcibly replaced (Another player takes your place) or modkilled (removed from the game) for inactivity. Beware.
- Upon being killed, you are entitled to one "Bah!" post, but you are not allowed to post any game-related content. After your Bah post, you MUST NOT POST AGAIN unless you somehow come back to life (impossible in this setup) or replace back in (you must have been town to do this). Failure to comply with this rule can lead to a bad reputation amongst mods, and difficulty in joining other games.
- Never underestimate your importance, and always play to win!
- A Cop inspects any player at Night. They are told that player's alignment, but not their role.
- A Doctor may protect any player at Night. This stops that player from being killed.
- A Roleblocker stops an extra role from using an action. This stops Doctors and Cops but does nothing for Townies.
- Roleblockers do not actually discover if their attempts were successful or not; that would be too powerful because the roleblocker would know they found a town power role. It isn't an investigative role (the same goes for the Doctor)! The Mafia needs to find the town power roles the old-fashioned way: analyzing behavior and voting patterns.
- Townies do not receive a message if they were blocked by a Mafia Roleblocker. Only a Cop or a Doctor will receive a message.
- A Godfather, if investigated by a Cop, looks just like a normal Townie.
Extensions require support from at least one of the players. You may oppose extensions as well, which cancels out an extension request. For example, if there were five players, with two requesting and two opposing, there would be no extension. (2-2 = 0 of 5)
Along with opposing extensions, there is also the option to Shorten/End the Day. They work differently from extensions, 33% required to pass with no objections. Shortening the Day ends the Day makes the day end as quickly as I can process it. Due to the nature of these requests, they also act just like Counter-Extensions.
Please bold requests/opposition to extensions, and Mod/my name if you want to ask me a question in-thread. (IE: Mod: I have a question!)
Attendance Sheet
Players:
scriver -> kilakan -> Urist Mcinternetuser, Roleblocker- billybobfred
- Twiggie -> Flandre
- Simple
- Bdthemag
- jc6036 -> Urist_McArathos
ICs:
- Vector
- IronyOwl
UltraValican -> webadict, Townie- Non-playing Mafia IC: lordnincompoop
Player Replacement Queue:
Frequently Asked Questions
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Resources
Our own Bay12 Mafia tutorial (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39338.0)
The Notable Games archive. Read a famous game from start to finish! Learn some Mafia history. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=64229.0)
The Mafiascum wiki. Lots of theory, terminology, and game analysis. (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
An Interactive Flash tutorial by one of the Mafiascum.net people. Helpful visualization! (http://cataldo.freeshell.org/mafia/mafiascum04.swf)
Spoiler: Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible, reposted here for your convenience (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: A List of Common Scumtells (click to show/hide)
If you're still confused, join anyhow and we'll teach you!
And if you have any other questions, just ask!
Max White will be co-modding with me. Feel free to ask us any questions you may have.
Post by: scriver on July 19, 2011, 11:11:11 am
Post by: Think0028 on July 19, 2011, 11:22:15 am
Post by: billybobfred on July 19, 2011, 01:13:25 pm
tl;dr: in
Post by: Twiggie on July 19, 2011, 01:34:56 pm
should be fun
Post by: Simple on July 19, 2011, 01:38:10 pm
In
Post by: Think0028 on July 19, 2011, 01:42:51 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 19, 2011, 01:57:20 pm
While I'm at it, I'm going to preliminarily dibs the modding of BMXXVII. Hope nobody minds.
Post by: Think0028 on July 19, 2011, 01:58:47 pm
One note: The title still reads BMXXIII. Make sure you change all the relevant details before posting plagiarised content :V
While I'm at it, I'm going to preliminarily dibs the modding of BMXXVII. Hope nobody minds.
... ffffffffffff YOU SAW NOTHING.
Yes, this first post is blatantly stolen from BMXXIII. Thank you LNCP for pointing that out.
Post by: Toaster on July 19, 2011, 02:06:20 pm
Looks like Web started it back in BM 11 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=57577.0).
Post by: Think0028 on July 19, 2011, 02:13:20 pm
Don't worry, most BM openers are stolen (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=68860.0) and then just tweaked to suit.
Looks like Web started it back in BM 11 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=57577.0).
Wow, you can trace multiple key phrases in the latest and greatest to Web's original post. Pretty neat to see how it evolves.
Post by: Vector on July 19, 2011, 03:16:07 pm
This one is still XXV, because XXV (original flavor) was aborted and locked, and for all purposes basically doesn't exist.
I seem to remember deciding to IC for XXV... didn't I?
Yeah.
Playing IC, reporting for duty.
Post by: Think0028 on July 19, 2011, 03:21:00 pm
And Vector, welcome to the game!
Post by: Darvi on July 19, 2011, 03:22:38 pm
Post by: Vector on July 19, 2011, 03:36:46 pm
Quick vote: XXV or XXVI? I chose XXVI because I figured it'd be nicer to whoever archives BM games.
And Vector, welcome to the game!
It isn't nicer to them, because the original version will not be archived. There's no reason to. It's not done, and there was an enormous amount of... issues... at the end. There'll just be a game missing between XXIV and XXVI.
Also, pretty much everything I do as an IC could be replaced by this video clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw8-GY-0_yw&feature=player_detailpage#t=105s). So, uh, go kill some scum or something, doods.
Post by: Max White on July 19, 2011, 03:56:39 pm
Also, pretty much everything I do as an IC could be replaced by this video clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw8-GY-0_yw&feature=player_detailpage#t=105s). So, uh, go kill some scum or something, doods.
Pretty much my exact expression at 1:58
Post by: UltraValican on July 19, 2011, 05:12:45 pm
In.
The game hasn't stated yet, so I bolded the in.
Post by: Bdthemag on July 20, 2011, 05:43:20 pm
Post by: Think0028 on July 20, 2011, 05:49:06 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 20, 2011, 05:58:13 pm
Post by: Max White on July 20, 2011, 05:59:52 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on July 20, 2011, 06:00:38 pm
Post by: Darvi on July 20, 2011, 06:01:32 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 20, 2011, 06:05:39 pm
If there's no opening, I guess I'll just settle for spectator again.
Post by: Max White on July 20, 2011, 06:09:10 pm
We here at BMXXV would like to inform you about our scum IC promotional offer. You aren't playing, and you don't post in the thread, but you have access to scumchat where you give advice to our new scum players. You have no direct involvement, but get to help raise a new generation of players!
Want it?
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 20, 2011, 06:11:37 pm
Post by: Think0028 on July 20, 2011, 06:21:04 pm
Post by: breadbocks on July 20, 2011, 06:22:22 pm
Post by: Vector on July 20, 2011, 06:55:07 pm
On the other hand, you really have way more experience than is usually considered appropriate or necessary.
Post by: webadict on July 20, 2011, 07:06:26 pm
Especially since I typed all of that on a phone.Don't worry, most BM openers are stolen (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=68860.0) and then just tweaked to suit.
Looks like Web started it back in BM 11 (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=57577.0).
Wow, you can trace multiple key phrases in the latest and greatest to Web's original post. Pretty neat to see how it evolves.
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 20, 2011, 07:10:52 pm
If you think you really need more IC'd practice, you should feel free to in.
On the other hand, you really have way more experience than is usually considered appropriate or necessary.
Yeah, that's what I was worried about.
I'll give a shot at scum IC for now, since that'll give me a reason to read the thread too.
Post by: Vector on July 20, 2011, 07:11:52 pm
I think we need to put something new into signups =/ I'll go bother the threshold list.
Post by: Bdthemag on July 20, 2011, 07:12:52 pm
Post by: jc6036 on July 20, 2011, 08:35:45 pm
Post by: kilakan on July 20, 2011, 08:37:22 pm
Post by: Max White on July 20, 2011, 08:41:21 pm
You know what, if this game isnt full yet, then IN If quicktopic doesnt work for me, will I be allowed any pming? I hope that it doesnt bug the mod too much if I cant use it. Im on a mobile device and heard it would work, so i will try it. Once again, IN.
If you get scum, quicktopic should work.
I'm here to offer myself as a replacement. I can IN anytime, just got ninjaed by jc. hehee
<_<
>_>
...
:D
DOUBLE VOTE KILAKAN!!!
Apart from that, WERE NOW READY!!!
Ladies and gentlemen, This is Max, your co-mod, please keep your arms and legs inside the thread at all times, and do not stand up until the game has come to a completed halt. We thank you for playing Beginner's Mafia, and hope you have a lynch-tastic experience.
Post by: Think0028 on July 20, 2011, 08:42:31 pm
kilakan, you're the first in the replace list.
Game will start sometime tomorrow, then!
Post by: breadbocks on July 20, 2011, 09:38:51 pm
Good. You can view Quicktopic. It is literally a disposable deepnet page.
Post by: jc6036 on July 20, 2011, 09:42:57 pm
Post by: Think0028 on July 21, 2011, 11:43:40 am
Day 1 has begun!
Not voting - scriver, billybobfred, Twiggie, Simple, UltraValican, Bdthemag, jc6036, Vector, IronyOwl
The Keep on the Borderlands. Built to stand against the dark
presence in the region, the keep has stood for years as a beacon
of light in the wilderness. However, the nearby Caverns of Chaos
have long been a thorn in the keep's side. The nine soldiers
stationed here have done their best to hold off the threat the forces
in the caverns presents.
Until today.
A message from the king's spy network has arrived. Two of your number have
betrayed you, and secretly serve those who dwell in the dark caverns!
You are to find them out, with force if need be, and to kill any
who resist. May the light be with you all.
The day will end Tuesday, 5:00 PM PST. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Post by: Dariush on July 21, 2011, 12:39:19 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 21, 2011, 12:49:52 pm
*evil laughter*
Post by: Twiggie on July 21, 2011, 01:20:05 pm
Post by: Simple on July 21, 2011, 01:36:42 pm
scriver:If you could choose one: would you rahter want a cop or a doctor on your side ? And why ?
billybobfred: How do you think first day could affect the rest of the game ?
jc6036: If you were scum would you rather go after a town that is completely reasonless but attacks another town or a person with solid case against you ?
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 01:44:54 pm
Post by: billybobfred on July 21, 2011, 02:14:10 pm
billybobfred: How do you think first day could affect the rest of the game ?
Not a lot. Chances are, our day 1 lynch will be some townie who said the wrong thing. This, of course, will help nothing.
We'll learn a lot more from the first night, I'd guess.
Post by: scriver on July 21, 2011, 02:22:24 pm
scriver:If you could choose one: would you rahter want a cop or a doctor on your side ? And why ?The cop, obviously. I have yet to see a zombie movie with a doctor who didn't end up being torn to pieces and hideously devoured.
What would your own answers to those questions be, by the way?
Post by: Twiggie on July 21, 2011, 03:52:47 pm
I dont think I understand your question. Can you word it a bit better for clarity?
Hypothetically,
You are scum.
There are three people you are considering voting for.
One is voting for you and has posted 13 paragraphs on why you are scum.
Another is voting for a townie, with a reasonable but not brilliant argument.
Who do you vote for, the person voting for you, the person voting for the townie, or the townie?
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 03:59:14 pm
Post by: Vector on July 21, 2011, 04:03:40 pm
Not a lot. Chances are, our day 1 lynch will be some townie who said the wrong thing. This, of course, will help nothing.
We'll learn a lot more from the first night, I'd guess.
No. D1 determines the progress of the entire rest of the game, and you cannot read nightkills. Period. Don't try, don't think about it, etc. Your job is to do your damndest to find scum every single day, but especially today, because if you haven't questioned the scum you'll probably never get around to it.
Don't chain kills, don't read into the nightkill, and above all don't do stupid shit.
The cop, obviously. I have yet to see a zombie movie with a doctor who didn't end up being torn to pieces and hideously devoured.
What would your own answers to those questions be, by the way?
Scriver, people didn't listen last game when I told them to vote and ask questions during RVS.
Maybe you want to change your tactics, there. The more corralling I have to do, the less I can help scumhunt.
I dont think I understand your question. Can you word it a bit better for clarity?
Same thing to you. You need to participate in an active sense, rather than a passive one.
Simple, who outside of the ICs would you most prefer for your scumteam? The least? Why?
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 04:22:48 pm
Post by: Vector on July 21, 2011, 04:23:48 pm
I would want some body very good with their words, thats for sure. They could help out in sticky situations massivly. I would not want some body that was a bad liar, as they may be see through as scum and give me away as their scumbuddy if I were scum.
To whom are you speaking?
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 04:28:22 pm
Post by: Vector on July 21, 2011, 04:31:06 pm
Simple, who outside of the ICs would you most prefer for your scumteam? The least? Why?
@vector: you, in order to answer your question about preferable scum buddies. I have a question, is it possible for an IC to be scum?
It's possible for ICs to be scum, yes.
What you should be paying attention to in that post is the request that you vote and question people, not the question I asked of an entirely different player.
Post by: billybobfred on July 21, 2011, 04:38:02 pm
Don't chain killswait what does that mean?
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 04:47:57 pm
Post by: Vector on July 21, 2011, 05:08:12 pm
Don't chain killswait what does that mean?
I'm not saying you've done this, or even thought of doing it, but it's a typical newbie logical flaw that I want to nip in the bud here and now.
Don't start thinking "Okay, we'll lynch this one and if they're scum we'll lynch this guy, and if they're not scum we'll lynch this guy" and so on, and so forth. Don't start thinking you have to pick one side of every argument. We have the day game for a reason, and that reason is to give you time to make educated decisions. Even if you think you know, check more, discover more, keep hunting and hunting. Don't give in to kneejerk reactions, especially as a beginner.
You need to be extremely meticulous in this game.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 21, 2011, 05:14:36 pm
Currently we are in what's known as RVS, meaning the Random Voting Stage. It's the beginning of the game and there's nothing to work with, so what do we do? Pick someone at random and ask them questions in the hopes of getting something to work with, usually with a vote for added pressure. It's a bit flaily, but absolutely vital to transitioning into more productive hunting.
Well, let's get this started then! I'm not sure if i'm doing this right but after reading another game i hope i'm not talking complete nonsense.This is the right way to do it. Useful RVS questions are generally hypothetical, but designed to give insight into how someone's thinking.
scriver:If you could choose one: would you rahter want a cop or a doctor on your side ? And why ?
billybobfred: How do you think first day could affect the rest of the game ?
jc6036: If you were scum would you rather go after a town that is completely reasonless but attacks another town or a person with solid case against you ?
vote bdthemag, since statistics state he will be scum!This is the wrong way to do it. Voting someone and then sitting on it doesn't accomplish anything, and usually isn't nearly as worrisome to scum as actual investigation.
This is also the wrong way to do it. Errors in reasoning aside, if you don't ask questions during RVS, you're not helping the game move forward. Sitting there waiting for someone to ask you a question is a bad move, whether or not you're voting someone in the meantime.billybobfred: How do you think first day could affect the rest of the game ?
Not a lot. Chances are, our day 1 lynch will be some townie who said the wrong thing. This, of course, will help nothing.
We'll learn a lot more from the first night, I'd guess.
Anyway, on to my hunting.
billybobfred, what do you think we'll learn from the NK?
UltraValican, suppose you're scum. Would you rather be a roleblocker or godfather?
Twiggie, what do you think of lordnincompoop?
Post by: Twiggie on July 21, 2011, 05:17:26 pm
@twiggie: you sure did suggest a vote fairly early in the game. Trying to eliminate some more experienced players first, hmmm?
nah just going off of what he said earlier ^^
Vector: if you were the cop, who would you target this round, so far?
jc: would you not be afraid that someone would call you out as bandwaggoning against an easy target?
Post by: Twiggie on July 21, 2011, 05:18:23 pm
so i think he's scum.
Post by: Vector on July 21, 2011, 05:19:56 pm
Vector: if you were the cop, who would you target this round, so far?
So far? I don't know, specifically, because no one's met the criteria.
However, I'd definitely cop the lurkiest player. I'm tired of being screwed over by lurkers.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 21, 2011, 05:20:31 pm
lordnincompoop is a scum ic who isnt technically playing, just helping out the scum.Kind of a nervous, overly technical response, isn't it? Twiggie, do you know more about lordnincompoop than you want to let slip?
so i think he's scum.
Post by: Twiggie on July 21, 2011, 05:23:31 pm
Post by: Vector on July 21, 2011, 05:25:55 pm
eh? says that in the first post :)
He's asking about your tone, not the literal content of the message.
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 05:28:14 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 21, 2011, 05:29:51 pm
He's asking about your tone, not the literal content of the message.This.
eh? says that in the first post :)On that note, your answer feels like a nervous dodge, smiley face to defuse the situation and all.
Post by: Twiggie on July 21, 2011, 05:30:40 pm
and no i use smilies all the time...
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 05:32:29 pm
Post by: Twiggie on July 21, 2011, 05:36:54 pm
ironyowl: what does it matter what i think of lordnincompoop when i can't vote for him anyway?
Post by: Vector on July 21, 2011, 05:37:17 pm
Who's your second scumpick, and why haven't you voted yet?
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 05:38:11 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on July 21, 2011, 05:38:35 pm
Jc6036 I honestly doubt that using smilies will make him seem more like town.
Billybob what role would you rather have in the game, cop or doctor?
Post by: Vector on July 21, 2011, 05:40:30 pm
no, it was actually more of a condescending thing, though i hate to admit it
Don't be condescending to the ICs. I don't know about IronyOwl, but I know that I personally only have so much temper, and it runs out a lot faster with needless provocation.
Everyone's here now, jc.
Who's your second scumpick, and why haven't you voted yet?
@ultravalcian: So, if you were scum, would you be more of a lurking type, an up front voter type, or somewhere in the middle?
Answer the question, please.
Jc6036 I honestly doubt that using smilies will make him seem more like town.
This is actually a theory Webadict employs. Someone who uses more smilies than they usually do in a game is probably scum.
He's been caught by people applying it to him, too. So think through the theory a bit harder, hey?
I'll also add that this looks like you're buddying with Twiggie.
Don't do that.
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 05:44:22 pm
Post by: Vector on July 21, 2011, 05:45:47 pm
@bdthemag: So, if you were scum, would you let your scumbuddie die if there was only 4 town left?
Is there something you don't understand about my request?
Post by: Simple on July 21, 2011, 05:50:01 pm
So you say we should give up trying and just lynch random person ? I guess scum could say something like that. And if lynching town would achieve nothing how you want to play next day ? Same way ?...
Not a lot. Chances are, our day 1 lynch will be some townie who said the wrong thing. This, of course, will help nothing.
We'll learn a lot more from the first night, I'd guess.
And why not ask yourself scriver ? You're scared of revealing something while asking own questions ?...The cop, obviously. I have yet to see a zombie movie with a doctor who didn't end up being torn to pieces and hideously devoured.
What would your own answers to those questions be, by the way?
Simple, who outside of the ICs would you most prefer for your scumteam? The least? Why?Hard question,i don't know people playing enough to say who would be good scum, but i guess someone who plays with a bit of thinking ahead would be nice since i prefer to ask questions first and think later which would make me a bit easier to read probably. Least desirable would be a scum-partner who would try to dig the identity of cop relentlessly, it would surely lead scum failure. Uh, this answer is bit general but it's really hard to judge who would be good scum in the long run from few words.
@twiggie: I would not be scared of accusations, as I would not jump on the band wagon without good evidence against the person being voted.And what would be evidence good enough for you ? Describe something that would earn your vote right away.
Damn ninjas ! (9 replies) Meh i'll post now anyway :P
Post by: IronyOwl on July 21, 2011, 05:52:21 pm
ah, right. well no i said it like that because i had to double check that he wasn't actually voteable.Alright, fair enough. In case you're curious, the conversation went something like this in my head:
and no i use smilies all the time...
Irony: So, what do you think of chocolate?
Twiggie: I think chocolate is a cocoa-based confectionary prohibited by numerous sections of the Anti-Sweets Amendment. So, it'd be illegal for me to have any.
Irony: You sound nervous.
Twiggie: What? No, this data is fully available at any National Nutritional Regulations office. *smiles nervously at Irony*
Irony: Reeaaaallly nervous.
But then, turns out you had a reason (or excuse) to have been reading up on it. Strictly speaking I could ask why you needed to read up on whether you could vote someone who was confirmed scum, but I don't really get the sense that that's quite the case, so it's time to move on.
I hope this has been an informative lesson on less concrete scumhunting (and/or wriggling out of such).
ironyowl: what does it matter what i think of lordnincompoop when i can't vote for him anyway?I hope the aforementioned explains it- I figured asking you about someone the scumteam would know much more about/have a connection to than the town might yield interesting results.
I lack Vector's temper, so no particular worries there. Being snarky to ICs is usually not wise regardless, however, because they usually know what they're doing moreso than you. In this case, for instance, not only did I have a fairly good reason to ask you about it, your attempt at being condescending made you seem scummy.no, it was actually more of a condescending thing, though i hate to admit it
Don't be condescending to the ICs. I don't know about IronyOwl, but I know that I personally only have so much temper, and it runs out a lot faster with needless provocation.
Post by: Twiggie on July 21, 2011, 05:57:06 pm
no, it was actually more of a condescending thing, though i hate to admit it
Don't be condescending to the ICs. I don't know about IronyOwl, but I know that I personally only have so much temper, and it runs out a lot faster with needless provocation.
yeah sorry. its something im trying to work on irl too.
ultravalcian, i notice you havent posted yet. if you were scum, who would you want to NK and why?
Post by: Vector on July 21, 2011, 05:58:00 pm
JC6036.
no, it was actually more of a condescending thing, though i hate to admit it
Don't be condescending to the ICs. I don't know about IronyOwl, but I know that I personally only have so much temper, and it runs out a lot faster with needless provocation.
yeah sorry. its something im trying to work on irl too.
Good man. Thanks for this nice answer.
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 05:59:20 pm
Post by: Vector on July 21, 2011, 06:01:46 pm
@vector: I was ninjad when I posted my Q to bd. I am still waiting on some one suspicious enough for another scumpick. I am still checking people out. Heres a vote right now, actually. Twiggie
I would like to know your opinion. You don't need to have a solid one. Just an idea. It sounds right now like you're letting other people dig dirt for you and jumping on it. What are you going to do now that IronyOwl has relented? Do you have a vein of reasoning to pursue?
Never let someone else's opinions on who is scum and who is not turn your head.
Post by: Bdthemag on July 21, 2011, 06:02:12 pm
Post by: Twiggie on July 21, 2011, 06:02:48 pm
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 06:03:26 pm
Post by: Simple on July 21, 2011, 06:05:14 pm
Twiggie are you perhaps going to start asking questions that will help town?Let's see : Statement with no available response,another statement,obvious rolefishing....
Jc6036 I honestly doubt that using smilies will make him seem more like town.
Billybob what role would you rather have in the game, cop or doctor?
Yeah, Bdthemag you should start asking valid question or admit you're scum. What's the purpose of asking questions in your opinion ? And it's not rhetorical question.
Thanks, Simple. Unvote.I guess IC should have a bit of freedom but shouldn't there be at least one explaination/question/invective behind that vote ?
JC6036.
@vector: I was ninjad when I posted my Q to bd. I am still waiting on some one suspicious enough for another scumpick. I am still checking people out. Heres a vote right now, actually. TwiggieHeh,same question here. Unless that's okay...
jc If I was scum I probally would, since killing your scum partner is a viable tactic when its getting close to the end of the game.I guess 4/1 town/scum ratio is not an end game but i could be wrong ( or i misunderstood the question ). And what scum tactic you expect right now ?
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 06:10:04 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on July 21, 2011, 06:17:11 pm
Jc Scum tactics right now? I would assume the scum would be trying to look town, and viciously questioning eachother to make it seem they are in no way related.
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 06:17:11 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on July 21, 2011, 06:18:06 pm
Post by: billybobfred on July 21, 2011, 06:19:43 pm
Warning - while you were typing 5 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Warning - while you were typing 9 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Warning - while you were typing 3 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
This game isn't exactly slow, is it? (i actually get a bizarre thrill out of seeing that message.)
billybobfred, what do you think we'll learn from the NK?Exactly what we learn would depend on what happens during the day, but depending on who they had previously interacted with and the nature of the interactions, it would give us a place to start investigating. Or continue investigating, if you're not me and therefore are not entirely awful at day 1.
Billybob what role would you rather have in the game, cop or doctor?Cop. All the way.
A mafiascum essay (http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=A_View_on_Cops) says that it's best to investigate someone who can lead town if they're cleared. (i'm oversimplifying, but the actual essay is right there)
There is no equivalent "how to doctor" essay (that I could find, anyway), but I'd guess they want to protect those who not only look towny, but also look like a good target for scum to kill. That is a little harder to work out! And wine logic comes into it too.
So, yeah, cop, because it's easier and I'm lazy.
So you say we should give up trying and just lynch random person ?Of course not, we'll learn even less that way.
is what i would have said before Vector came in and pointed out that day 1 is super important and can effect the whole game. I'm assuming he knows what he's talking about.
What I'm saying after the fact is still "no that is even worse", but without the undertone of "day 1 sucks and is useless anyway".
if you don't ask questions during RVS, you're not helping the game move forwardSo on this note, I may as well try something that isn't completely pointless.
Questions!
scriver: If you're a cop and (somehow) know the mafia have exactly one power role, would you rather it be godfather or roleblocker?
Twiggie: If you're a roleblocker and (somehow) know the town have exactly one power role, would you rather it be doctor or cop?
Simple: You're a cop. Three people left. An innocent read on both. Therefore, one of them has to be a godfather. One is attacking the other, the other is attacking you. What do?
I was going to ask everyone a question, but I could only come up with three. Oh well maybe with moar caffeine I can ask the rest of you some things.
Post by: Bdthemag on July 21, 2011, 06:22:52 pm
Those questions are extremely WIFOMy, especially since your talking about night actions. Are you trying to distract the town with a few worthless questions to make it seem like your scumhunting?
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 06:23:35 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 21, 2011, 06:27:31 pm
That doesn't sound like learning anything, though. That sounds like being given a potential cue to some of the next day's activities.billybobfred, what do you think we'll learn from the NK?Exactly what we learn would depend on what happens during the day, but depending on who they had previously interacted with and the nature of the interactions, it would give us a place to start investigating. Or continue investigating, if you're not me and therefore are not entirely awful at day 1.
I was going to ask everyone a question, but I could only come up with three. Oh well maybe with moar caffeine I can ask the rest of you some things.Spreading yourself out too thin is generally not a particularly good thing, since at some point your questions lose potency, either to yourself (since there's too much data to process) and/or to your target (since scum don't really get nervous when everyone's in the same boat).
Also, I would avoid reading too much into UltraValican's current absence. There are a number of perfectly valid reasons to have not gotten around to posting here just yet, rather than being lurkscum hoping to avoid attention.
Post by: billybobfred on July 21, 2011, 06:32:19 pm
Unvote Twig Vote BillybobNo matter how hard I look at my questions, I can't see any WIFOM in them. Care to point it out?
Those questions are extremely WIFOMy, especially since your talking about night actions. Are you trying to distract the town with a few worthless questions to make it seem like your scumhunting?
WIFOM is still the "but what if that's what he wanted me to think" logic, right? Because that is the thing I don't see.
(also, mandatory "my scumhunting what" joke poking fun at your incorrect grammar goes here)
That doesn't sound like learning anything, though. That sounds like being given a potential cue to some of the next day's activities.This did occur to me.
... That by itself is not much of a response but I can't actually think of anything to add to it. bluh.
Post by: Simple on July 21, 2011, 06:34:55 pm
Simple Oh excuse me, I thought this was the RVS stage where you randomly vote people and compare their responses with others to see who is scum.How do you get someone response from single word ? Because two out of three of your question weren't questions at all! Unless simple "ok" gives you information about someone. And how would you viciously question your scumbuddy without making yourself or him look suspicious ? Unless you meant something else than serious probing questions by this ?
Jc Scum tactics right now? I would assume the scum would be trying to look town, and viciously questioning eachother to make it seem they are in no way related.
Simple: You're a cop. Three people left. An innocent read on both. Therefore, one of them has to be a godfather. One is attacking the other, the other is attacking you. What do?Punch you. No, really. This situation should never happen. The day before it was this situation i would claim. Because at this point my role would be useless. Nobody will believe i'm a cop at this point and killing me would grant nothing to scum anyway the day before. Or maybe not, because asking about such precise situation is a bit useless especially since it's obvious my decision would rely on my observations beforehand.And i'm not going to waste my time overthinking it.
Post by: Bdthemag on July 21, 2011, 06:43:26 pm
Simple Im looking for people's responses, if they freak the fuck out and start OMGUS'ing thats a scumtell. Your questions are entering WIFOM territory and those questions rarely help out the town, because if I talk about how a scumpartner would questions another one without suspicion they could also decide not to do that. Im not sure if anyone know's that but I fucking hate it when people ask WIFOM questions.
Post by: Twiggie on July 21, 2011, 06:58:40 pm
jc, why so defensive? when you use words like '*appeared*' and 'to my mind at least' it seems very suspicious. you voted me but you're being extremely cautious now, and it seems like you just picked me for other people's points of view, which is not good for the town.
you don't seem to have formed any opinion of who is scum yourself, but you haven't pursued any other lines of questioning. what gives?
Post by: billybobfred on July 21, 2011, 07:04:47 pm
... *facepalm* People who think things through better than I do count: +1Simple: You're a cop. Three people left. An innocent read on both. Therefore, one of them has to be a godfather. One is attacking the other, the other is attacking you. What do?Punch you. No, really. This situation should never happen. The day before it was this situation i would claim. Because at this point my role would be useless.
times about a million for the sheer "holy shit how did i not see that this scenario is literally impossible" factor.
I would like to replace that with a non-sucky question, but everything I have thought of is either fantastically unlikely, dripping with WIFOM, or irrelevant to this game. (questions: did i mention i suck at them?)
Billybob first of your talking about possible situations that may or may not happen, then your start talking about night actions WHICH YOU SHOULD NEVER DO. Those kind of questions are stupid and won't help the town at all.For the first part, you may have noticed that a lot of these questions are hypothetical.
To the second part... well, I didn't know that talking about night actions is terrible and wrong. =/
Post by: billybobfred on July 21, 2011, 07:06:27 pm
Like, I was sure everyone but me had asked about six of them each.
Post by: UltraValican on July 21, 2011, 07:43:27 pm
no, it was actually more of a condescending thing, though i hate to admit it
Don't be condescending to the ICs. I don't know about IronyOwl, but I know that I personally only have so much temper, and it runs out a lot faster with needless provocation.
yeah sorry. its something im trying to work on irl too.
ultravalcian, i notice you havent posted yet. if you were scum, who would you want to NK and why?
Just got back from some real life stuff and I'm still reading through the game so far. Could you explain your question better?
If you mean which player I would night kill (if I were scum), at this point....no one really from what I read so far no ones really putting the heat on anyone yet, if I where scum I would try to contribute to the inquisition just enough without seeming like I was bandwagon (if that’s a word :P), I might wait till a few others vote before I go in for the mislynch. Then I would NK the player who started said mislynch.
If you are referring to what role, I would NK Cop first. Doctor second.
@ultravalcian: So, if you were scum, would you be more of a lurking type, an up front voter type, or somewhere in the middle?If I were scum I would be as active as possible, but I would never cast the first vote.
@Twiggie, Would you care to explain why your so concerned about some one who hasn't posted before the first 24 hours of the game are even up?
Post by: Twiggie on July 21, 2011, 07:55:36 pm
and apparently thinking about NKs is worthless, so its a moot point...
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 08:24:55 pm
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 08:39:49 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on July 21, 2011, 08:46:09 pm
Besides your taking what I said and applying it to me, care to give me an example of my "Vicious posting"?
Post by: billybobfred on July 21, 2011, 08:47:31 pm
I was trying to get something resembling real numbers on the ratio of hypothetical to non-hypothetical scumhunting questions, and I saw something that I had somehow missed before:
Useful RVS questions are generally hypothetical
So now I'm wondering, Bdthemag, why you went after me for, let's go with your exact words,
talking about possible situations that may or may not happenwhen it has been explicitly stated (by an IC, no less!) that asking hypothetical questions is a good thing.
@billybob: same question as above.At the risk of putting everything I've said so far under suspicion, if I were scum, I would ask questions that I think are useful and press anyone who gave what I saw as a strange answer. In short, my first priority during the day would be to act just the same as town!billybobfred would.
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 08:49:32 pm
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 08:54:27 pm
Post by: Vector on July 21, 2011, 09:38:42 pm
I guess IC should have a bit of freedom but shouldn't there be at least one explaination/question/invective behind that vote ?
Asked a question, got an answer, moved on to put my vote somewhere I thought would be more useful.
I have a read on you now, and that's all I wanted.
Also, news broadcast: I'm a woman. Those of you who have been calling me "he" will not be smote with righteous anger, but it'd be cool if you swapped your pronouns. Thanks muchly.
Gotta reread through this thing, because damn has this game been moving quick.
Post by: Bdthemag on July 21, 2011, 10:11:10 pm
Post by: billybobfred on July 21, 2011, 10:31:24 pm
If you see circular logic in my questions, please explain it so that I can ask non-sucky questions instead, instead of just saying "WIFOM is bad" over and over. I know WIFOM is bad! Don't tell me what is bad about WIFOM, tell me what is WIFOM about my questions!
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 11:22:40 pm
Post by: billybobfred on July 21, 2011, 11:33:54 pm
I am pretty terrible at that in the best circumstances! (reminder: these are not the best circumstances) I don't think my questions are completely useless in that department, though.
Post by: jc6036 on July 21, 2011, 11:45:41 pm
Post by: billybobfred on July 21, 2011, 11:56:47 pm
Not to say I wouldn't try them. But it wouldn't come out until I was desperate.
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 22, 2011, 08:03:54 am
@bdthemag: so, with all this talk about scum communication, and your vicious posting, your getting to look a bit suspicious. I have a question for you, if you were scum, what lengths would you go to to frame somebody else as scum and make your self appear to be town? @billybob: same question as above. Unvote Twiggie, bdthemag.
Brotip: Both votes and unvotes are both done in bright red.
Post by: UltraValican on July 22, 2011, 08:59:06 am
Post by: Vector on July 22, 2011, 09:10:25 am
@ jc6036, If you were a doctor how would you go about protecting town?
HOW FUCKING MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY VOTE WITH YOUR FUCKING FIRST QUESTION.
What, five? Is it really five or more?
I'm sorry for jumping on you, UltraValican. It isn't your fault that you just happened to be residing in this time slot. However, I am starting to suspect that no one is paying attention.
Post by: scriver on July 22, 2011, 10:52:50 am
Scriver, people didn't listen last game when I told them to vote and ask questions during RVS.Why would I want to vote before I know anything about the others, though?
Maybe you want to change your tactics, there. The more corralling I have to do, the less I can help scumhunt.
Truth to be told, I'm not good at coming up with questions. I do think it's rather suspicious that you're implying I'm hiding something, though, instead of answering the questions I wanted you to, Simple. I'm still waiting for answers.What would your own answers to those questions be, by the way?And why not ask yourself scriver ? You're scared of revealing something while asking own questions ?
scriver: If you're a cop and (somehow) know the mafia have exactly one power role, would you rather it be godfather or roleblocker?I'm not completely sure. I might not be able to find a Godfather, but a roleblocker could block my investigations every time. But that would require him to know I am a cop, I guess, so it's not very likely. So in the end, I think, I'd rather it was a roleblocker than a godfather.
This being my first game ever, I simply cannot think of what questions to ask, and what I could learn from my answers. Thats why I was letting others do the questioning for me. . . .this really is infuriating, not really being able to play well. I will do my best, however.I'm having the exact same problems. I have no idea what to ask, unfortunately. Or how to read the answers. So far, this is all just one big pile of suspicious.
Maybe I should've read some other games before I threw myself into this.
ninja'd!
VOTE WITH YOUR FUCKING FIRST QUESTION.Why is this, Vec?
Post by: jc6036 on July 22, 2011, 10:56:51 am
Post by: jc6036 on July 22, 2011, 10:59:12 am
Post by: Darvi on July 22, 2011, 11:01:17 am
*disappear*
Post by: Vector on July 22, 2011, 11:09:43 am
The more strong, smooth pressure you have on someone, the more likely they are to make mistakes. You don't want them to blow up and feel like quitting the game--that's bad. You just want them to be a bit scared, and then they start making one error, and then another, and another.
One of the reasons why this thread is so full of trash is because folks keep asking questions without combing the results or submitting adequate pressure.
I highly recommend that everyone who is confused read at least one game from the Notable Games Archive (not a bastard mod, though--pick a BM or something). It's a good experience.
@vector: either you just have a very anal personality, or your scum. . .wanting us to vote this early, trying to get us all to put pressure on each other. . . .suspicious, hmmm, vector?
Or perhaps I'm a town IC who knows what happens when people don't vote or attack at the dawn of D1.
And no, I wouldn't call my doing my job particularly suspicious, but you're permitted to believe what you like.
How do you suggest we scumhunt without placing votes or adding pressure? Please, enlighten me. I'd love to hear your theory.
Post by: jc6036 on July 22, 2011, 11:48:53 am
@bdthemag: I have this nagging suspiscion in my mind that you are scum, and I will find out if you are or not. So, bdthemag, if you were scum, would you flame others tactics to make it appear that you want town to do better?
@billybobfred: Same with you, with your almost worthless questions, they are empty and don't have much info to gain from them, so, would you argue with a scumbuddie on tactics to make it appear that you are ignorant to tactics?
Post by: Vector on July 22, 2011, 11:56:02 am
Or perhaps I'm a town IC who knows what happens when people don't vote or attack at the dawn of D1.
And no, I wouldn't call my doing my job particularly suspicious, but you're permitted to believe what you like.
How do you suggest we scumhunt without placing votes or adding pressure? Please, enlighten me. I'd love to hear your theory.
@bdthemag: I have this nagging suspiscion in my mind that you are scum, and I will find out if you are or not. So, bdthemag, if you were scum, would you flame others tactics to make it appear that you want town to do better?
Attention everyone:
I would like your commentary on these two quotations in juxtaposition. This is a good learning and interpretation point for everybody. Throughout this game, I will attempt to pull out statements like this in order to give everyone else an opportunity to perform the necessary mental work.
So, what does that question of JC6036's actually mean?
At the end, I'll give my own interpretation, of course.
Post by: jc6036 on July 22, 2011, 12:05:47 pm
Post by: Vector on July 22, 2011, 12:06:54 pm
Awwww damn. did I just make a n00b mistake?
That's not the question I asked.
Why did you ask that particular question in the context of this game? What was the goal? What were you going to do with the results from BDthemag?
Post by: Vector on July 22, 2011, 12:07:23 pm
Post by: UltraValican on July 22, 2011, 12:11:05 pm
@vector: Well, I guess youve been playing longer than me. . . .I have no idea what questions to ask. . . .Pressure Vote
@bdthemag: I have this nagging suspiscion in my mind that you are scum, and I will find out if you are or not. So, bdthemag, if you were scum, would you flame others tactics to make it appear that you want town to do better?
@billybobfred: Same with you, with your almost worthless questions, they are empty and don't have much info to gain from them, so, would you argue with a scumbuddie on tactics to make it appear that you are ignorant to tactics?
jc6036, why are you so concerned on how to deal with scum/scumbuddie relationships? Why would you think scum would have reason to argue about tactics?
Post by: Vector on July 22, 2011, 12:12:12 pm
Keep going, though, UltraValican. You're doing a lot better this game, already.
Post by: jc6036 on July 22, 2011, 12:16:46 pm
@vector: The infromation I was hoping to gain was that if he said that he would, then that could almost be incriminating for him. I could have been too direct for my question, and I could have gotten a false result since 90% of everything is crap, but it was worth asking to put on pressure. And this distracting argument back and forth seems to be a scumtactic to me.
Post by: Vector on July 22, 2011, 12:24:47 pm
@vector: The infromation I was hoping to gain was that if he said that he would, then that could almost be incriminating for him. I could have been too direct for my question, and I could have gotten a false result since 90% of everything is crap, but it was worth asking to put on pressure. And this distracting argument back and forth seems to be a scumtactic to me.
Which distracting argument back and forth? What, the part where I ask you questions, you answer them poorly, and I keep pressuring you? Babe, that's the way the game is played.
So... you were asking him "if you were scum, would you do what the IC just did?" And then you devalued that action by calling it a flame, "to make it appear that you want town to play better" (italics mine). Why would you ask the question within this contextual framework, directly after I refuted your argument on my attack?
If you have problems with me, talk to me. Don't shovel it off onto other people and ask them how they feel about me indirectly.
Post by: billybobfred on July 22, 2011, 12:39:46 pm
Attention everyone:He was awfully quick to change his mind. In this case, he had just been informed by a more experienced player that he was Doing It Wrong™, but it still seems off.
I would like your commentary on these two quotations in juxtaposition.
@billybobfred: Same with you, with your almost worthless questions, they are empty and don't have much info to gain from them, so, would you argue with a scumbuddie on tactics to make it appear that you are ignorant to tactics?That sounds like a bad idea. Even if it made me look less dangerous, it wouldn't make me look any less suspicious. And let's face it, even shit scum still has a nightkill.
Not entirely sure how your question is related to my questions, but there's your answer.
Post by: Think0028 on July 22, 2011, 12:48:04 pm
Bdthemag: billybobfred, jc6036, Simple
jc6036: Vector, UltraValican
billybobfred: Bdthemag, IronyOwl
UltraValican: Twiggie
Not voting - scriver
The day will end Tuesday, 5:00 PM PST. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Post by: jc6036 on July 22, 2011, 12:56:57 pm
Post by: jc6036 on July 22, 2011, 01:00:26 pm
Post by: Simple on July 22, 2011, 02:12:20 pm
Good to see you're in the mood to retaliate! It's much easier for scum to make mistake when doing so. I'm pretty sure that pointing out your suspicious behavior isn't something i should be ashamed of, and well you are very likely to be scum and don't try to tell me that scum have nothing to hide!Truth to be told, I'm not good at coming up with questions. I do think it's rather suspicious that you're implying I'm hiding something, though, instead of answering the questions I wanted you to, Simple. I'm still waiting for answers.What would your own answers to those questions be, by the way?And why not ask yourself scriver ? You're scared of revealing something while asking own questions ?
woops, just saw the doctor question. @Ultra: being relativitaly new hear, I would probally protect whomever seemed the most likley target of a night kill. If I knew who the cop was, he would be good to protect. So, trying a little rolehunting, eh?Wait, you're saying you would rolehunt as a doctor ? What would you gain if there were no cop ?
So, what does that question of JC6036's actually mean?Prime example of passive-agressive attack ? He doesn't want to go directly against someone so he takes a bit of detour while appearing to attack Bd. Not that i would call this suspicious enough to call it scummy but rather bad try to play along the given rules.
Billybobfred Who would you inspect as a cop, right now ? And why ?
jc6036 Why are you relentlessly clarifying your own responses ? You feel they sound scummy ?
Post by: billybobfred on July 22, 2011, 02:48:44 pm
Having a cleared IC would likely prevent timewasters such as jc6036 questioning standard Mafia scumhunting strategy. On the other hand, outside the highly unlikely scenario of both ICs being scum, they would tend to be good nightkill targets, and inspecting someone who dies the same night is a fucking annoying waste askfjbsklgjbag hate so much. (can you tell this has happened to me before?)
So I'd probably actually inspect the strongest non-IC player, which is a pretty hard call to make right now. If, somehow, the day ended right now, though, I'd probably end up checking you, Simple. Just because you've made one big intelligent post recently, so you stick out in my mind right now.
Post by: Bdthemag on July 22, 2011, 03:25:02 pm
But you keep on acting scummy, then later try to explain yourself. So yeah, your probally scum.
Post by: Simple on July 22, 2011, 04:04:58 pm
That's a good question.Would you claim outright after hitting scum as a cop ? And don't compliment me that much, it makes me feel like you want to divert my attention. Another thing that i want to ask you: what would you do if person who you focused on would turn out town?
Having a cleared IC would likely prevent timewasters such as jc6036 questioning standard Mafia scumhunting strategy. On the other hand, outside the highly unlikely scenario of both ICs being scum, they would tend to be good nightkill targets, and inspecting someone who dies the same night is a fucking annoying waste askfjbsklgjbag hate so much. (can you tell this has happened to me before?)
So I'd probably actually inspect the strongest non-IC player, which is a pretty hard call to make right now. If, somehow, the day ended right now, though, I'd probably end up checking you, Simple. Just because you've made one big intelligent post recently, so you stick out in my mind right now.
Unvote Billybob, Vote JC Honestly that question is extremely stupid, and you keep clarifying yourself to explain to us its not in fact stupid. But anyways, if I was scum I wouldn't do that because that is scummy.I so want to lynch you right now. But now i'm not sure if you're not playing like this intentionally... First: about what jc's question you're talking? Second: Do the second sentence have any meaning outside making your post look longer ? And why the "later" ? If he looks scummy to you shouldn't you ask him questions to be sure ? Or you just probing for easy target ? Who's your second pick if you have one ? And if not why ? Who worries you the most ?
But you keep on acting scummy, then later try to explain yourself. So yeah, your probally scum.
Post by: jc6036 on July 22, 2011, 04:38:31 pm
Post by: billybobfred on July 22, 2011, 05:23:51 pm
Would you claim outright after hitting scum as a cop ?Probably, yeah. I'd like if my reading had some benefit to town, and I can't think of a way to get town to lynch a guy without claiming that isn't so obvious I may as well have just claimed in the first place.
I might hold off if town seemed to be looking that way on their own, though.
Another thing that i want to ask you: what would you do if person who you focused on would turn out town?I'm not sure, to be honest. I'd definitely side-eye anyone who seemed to be trying to get that person lynched specifically, but...
This is still an extension of the cop scenario, right?
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 22, 2011, 09:48:59 pm
[...]I am dying for a lovely bastard game[!!!]
You heard her, folks: She's dying for a good Bastard Mod Mafia game! Save this distressing damsel from the clutches of certain death - join the Witches' Coven (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89396.0) game today, and indulge in the sublimest of entertainment hunting down hags at a level of authenticity possible only with a Bastard like me!
Post by: Vector on July 22, 2011, 09:52:14 pm
this distressing damsel
I find this quotation deeply enjoyable.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 22, 2011, 09:57:46 pm
You heard her, folks: She's dying for a good Bastard Mod Mafia game! Save this distressing damsel from the clutches of certain death - join the Witches' Coven (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89396.0) game today, and indulge in the sublimest of entertainment hunting down hags at a level of authenticity possible only with a Bastard like me!I really want to, but I'm running behind in this game as is.
Post by: Vector on July 22, 2011, 10:01:29 pm
I really want to, but I'm running behind in this game as is.
Wait a couple days, then, Nincompoop, so that Mr. Owl can figure out how to juggle his schedule and play both magnificent games.
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 22, 2011, 10:09:21 pm
That said, if you can't sign up in time, I'd love it if you can spoilspec and brainstorm some game-ideas with me.
Post by: Think0028 on July 22, 2011, 10:09:34 pm
Post by: Vector on July 22, 2011, 10:13:28 pm
Aww, Vector thinks this is a magnificent game! *blush*
It's getting there. If I have my way, it will certainly deserve that moniker by the time it closes.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 22, 2011, 10:23:19 pm
Unvote Billybob, Vote JC Honestly that question is extremely stupid, and you keep clarifying yourself to explain to us its not in fact stupid. But anyways, if I was scum I wouldn't do that because that is scummy.This is good for pressure, but you'd best not be planning on riding that to the end of the day.
But you keep on acting scummy, then later try to explain yourself. So yeah, your probally scum.
Good to see you're in the mood to retaliate! It's much easier for scum to make mistake when doing so. I'm pretty sure that pointing out your suspicious behavior isn't something i should be ashamed of, and well you are very likely to be scum and don't try to tell me that scum have nothing to hide!It's true that you're refusing to answer him, though. I find that rather odd.
jc, why do you think everyone takes everything you say as scummy? What do you think of each of the three votes on you? Justified, scummy, something else?
Post by: jc6036 on July 22, 2011, 10:52:35 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 22, 2011, 10:59:10 pm
Nothing can help that but experience though, correct?Analysis can help as well- if you can pinpoint why everyone's voting you, you can think about how to not do that.
But yes, experience will help also.
I'd also like to point out that proper wording is rather important in mafia, both because it's vital to be able to successfully communicate what you want to say, and because poor wording can be an important scumtell.
Finally, keep hunting, and don't worry too much about how many votes you have. It makes you look more townlike and accomplishes your goals at the same time, whether or not you get lynched.
Post by: Simple on July 23, 2011, 07:01:24 am
Wouldn't that be a good reason to tip the scales on the right side with that infoation ? And as of other question it wasn't meaning the cop situation, sorry if it was misleading.Would you claim outright after hitting scum as a cop ?Probably, yeah. I'd like if my reading had some benefit to town, and I can't think of a way to get town to lynch a guy without claiming that isn't so obvious I may as well have just claimed in the first place.
I might hold off if town seemed to be looking that way on their own, though.
jc: Bd and you have the same number of votes right now. What do you think of this situation ?
scriver: I guess you may have some reason to not vote but who's your first pick right now and why ?
Post by: UltraValican on July 23, 2011, 08:43:32 am
@owl: I think that my wording and/or grammer is a bit off some times, causing mis reads of my answers/questions. And it really is making me angry. Imagine learning how to swim, whilst a teacher tosses you into the pool and a more experienced swimmer tries to dunk you. Thats how I feel right now. I feel that the three votes against me are because of poor wording in my posts, causing suspicion. Combine that with my newness to mafia games, and I guess I have a kick me sign on my back. Nothing can help that but experience though, correct?@JCI'm not an IC, but just remeber: Don't Panic/Victimize YourSelf, doing those to things only puts yourself deeper into the hole. I don't quite remember but someone told me in my last mafia game:
Quote
You'll be susprised how many people will change thier vote for you when you join the scumhuntJust my two cents on the matter.
@ Simple Why are you curious about who is voting/ suspicious of whom?
Post by: billybobfred on July 23, 2011, 10:14:09 am
Wouldn't that be a good reason to tip the scales on the right side with that infoation ?Sure, if they weren't looking hard enough on their own to get the scum lynched. And there's no way I'd be voting for anyone else that day.
But if town doesn't need a cop claim to lynch scum, then I don't need to make the mafia's nightkill easy.
And as for the other question, I guess I'd just pick someone else and focus on them instead.
Post by: scriver on July 23, 2011, 10:17:34 am
I don't know if this hinders the game or not, and if it does I am very sorry, but I thought it would be better to write this than just lingering in the background not doing anything (as I have so far) and ignoring it.
Post by: Vector on July 23, 2011, 12:36:42 pm
Post by: Think0028 on July 23, 2011, 12:43:11 pm
Post by: kilakan on July 23, 2011, 02:19:39 pm
Post by: jc6036 on July 23, 2011, 02:32:38 pm
Post by: Think0028 on July 23, 2011, 02:33:50 pm
Post by: scriver on July 23, 2011, 03:15:42 pm
Yeah, that's fine. Will you at least try to come play with us some other time?I probably will, sometime in the future. I still think it looks like fun.
Anyway, since I don't want to detract from the game, I won't post any more in here.
Thanks for understanding, though.
Post by: Jim Groovester on July 23, 2011, 04:01:20 pm
Post by: kilakan on July 23, 2011, 07:05:19 pm
This being my first game ever, I simply cannot think of what questions to ask, and what I could learn from my answers. Thats why I was letting others do the questioning for me. . . .this really is infuriating, not really being able to play well. I will do my best, however.This sounds like preemptive defensiveness to me. You talk yourself down and sound nervous while doing it. Also about not being to play very well... it is called a beginner's game for a reason, and it's just an excuse.
@bdthemag: then perhaps its just your volatile personality in general thats showing in your posts. I just think that your working a bit too hard to make your self look townie.This is simply you getting pushed back and then saying 'Ok I'm Wrong about you don't hurt me!' If you think he's working too hard to look townie then push him harder, don't fold at a rebuttal. Try to actually push him back with an accusation or argument, this just makes you look scummy to me.
Billy bob is also putting up a good defense, but for all I know, he could still be scum. I trust nobody.This is a backhanded compliment, along with another preemptive defensive point. It seems you are trying to buddy him while covering your ass by saying, well I still don't trust him!
@vector: either you just have a very anal personality, or your scum. . .wanting us to vote this early, trying to get us all to put pressure on each other. . . .suspicious, hmmm, vector?Well that's just rude, arrogant, and written very nervously. Also mafia is about putting pressure on people, if you don't enjoy that this really is not the game for you.
@vector: Well, I guess youve been playing longer than me. . . .I have no idea what questions to ask. . . .Now she is an IC and did give a good rebuttal, but you seriously fold on your suspicions like that, and talk yourself down again?
I keep clarifying as every body keeps taking my questions and answers the wrong way. So I give a answer that seems suspicious because its being taken the wrong way, then I try to clarify and you say thats scummy. See, here I go again, trying to explain my self. @simple: thanks for pointing out my passive agressivness, I guess that I should be more direct, so @bdthemag: I think you are scum. You seem to be extremely hostile towards every body, and that makes me feel that your trying to make people lose their cool, to piss them off. I find that a bit suspiscious. I can see a good scumhunting technique in that, but your a bit too aggresive.There's a line between defending your arguments and words, and being so defensive as to become scummy. This post crossed the line, well the first three sentences at least.
@owl: I think that my wording and/or grammer is a bit off some times, causing mis reads of my answers/questions. And it really is making me angry. Imagine learning how to swim, whilst a teacher tosses you into the pool and a more experienced swimmer tries to dunk you. Thats how I feel right now. I feel that the three votes against me are because of poor wording in my posts, causing suspicion. Combine that with my newness to mafia games, and I guess I have a kick me sign on my back. Nothing can help that but experience though, correct?Again with the angry at yourself, and talking yourself down. Also with the over-explaining yourself, that is yet again defensiveness to the point of scummy.
jc6036
@simple: to answer your question, I believe that two of the votes on me are just pressure votes that were never removed, and I think that bd voted for me as a rebuttal against my attacks on him. Thats not going to stop my attacks, however, and I will reveal bds true intentions soon enough. I find it suspicious how he asks barely any questions at all, and shoots down others by calling them "stupid" or "WIFOM" whilst barely giving good answers.Now that vote comes off when you tell me why you truly believe that two votes on you are pressure, and when you make good on your promise to reveal BDthemag's true intentions. Frankly your attacks seem very half-hearted so far.
Post by: jc6036 on July 23, 2011, 08:28:27 pm
Post by: Vector on July 23, 2011, 08:32:12 pm
I would like everyone voting jc6036 to explain why they are doing so, please, and why they are certain he is scum, and why they thought their vote in particular would be helpful.
At this point, any vote on him will be considered a lynching vote.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 23, 2011, 08:39:26 pm
I dont know what to do. I guess mafia just isnt the game for me.First of all, never give up. Even if you get lynched, you can still continue to scumhunt up until then, acquiring potentially useful information for everyone else. Even if you're scum, that can still be handy to your partner.
Secondly, there's nothing to do except continue playing. If you think people are voting you for good reasons, explain why you screwed up and continue hunting. If you think people are voting you for bad reasons, call them out on it and continue hunting. If you're not sure why people are voting you, ask them about it and continue hunting.
There's zero reason why being voted a lot should stop you from trying to figure everyone else out.
Post by: Max White on July 23, 2011, 08:44:20 pm
Votecount
Bdthemag[3]: billybobfred, jc6036, Simple
jc6036[3]: UltraValican, Bdthemag, kilakan
billybobfred[1]: IronyOwl
UltraValican[1]: Twiggie
Not voting: Vector
The day will end Tuesday, 5:00 PM PST. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
jc6036: While nobody is going to stop you from leaving any time you want, your first game is always going to be hard. If you stick it out, you will be a stronger player for it.
Post by: Vector on July 23, 2011, 08:46:05 pm
Post by: kilakan on July 23, 2011, 08:49:38 pm
I dont know what to do. I guess mafia just isnt the game for me.Ok not even close to a decent response. As Irony said just keep playing, I'm not at all convinced you are scum, but I'm not convinced you are town either. Answer/reply to what I've said and then the vote may or may not come off. It's just a pressure/actually pay attention to this vote. That being said it doesn't come off until you at least try to respond with a bit more then 'I suck'.
Unvote.mainly to get him to actually pay attention. The vote was to force him to actually respond to what I said and not just brush it off as 'another pressure vote' While it is a pressure vote, if he doesn't do anything then It's a lynch vote. Frankly the reason I think he may be scum, is that there is always the possibility he is playing the "I'm a noob card" that someone else may be telling him to do. Now I realize it's a tad of a WIFOM but the fact he has talked down himself 3 times, and then responded with "I don't know what to do" makes me think he is scum trying to get out by playing dumb.
I would like everyone voting jc6036 to explain why they are doing so, please, and why they are certain he is scum, and why they thought their vote in particular would be helpful.
At this point, any vote on him will be considered a lynching vote.
Post by: jc6036 on July 23, 2011, 08:50:35 pm
Post by: kilakan on July 23, 2011, 08:55:20 pm
As for my vote on bd: he seems to not ask many questions then shoots others down as "stupid" Or "WIFOMy" making it appear that he doesnt want to give answers to certain questions. That seems scummy to me. And for the votes against me, I guess I was being overly defensive. I dont know how, but that appears to be peoples argument.Partially Noob Advice:I find that if you tend to over explain things, and use words like 'appears' and lines like "I Don't Know how" from the above quote, it tends to seem like you are trying to tell people what they want to hear and not what you think. Then over-explaining something (like the swimming example) it makes you seem like you are really worrying over this and thus over-thinking it, then you come off as overly defensive. Basically you can worry and really think things through as much as you want, just try to not seem it. Be concise. (if the IC's disagree with me jump in and say so, it's just what I've found from my 5 games here)
Post by: billybobfred on July 23, 2011, 09:03:42 pm
So I put a pressure vote on him and asked for a non-conksucky explanation. Since he hasn't given one, the vote's still on.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 23, 2011, 09:42:45 pm
Simple, could you restate your case on scriver? Why didn't you ever answer his question?
Post by: jc6036 on July 23, 2011, 10:56:47 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 23, 2011, 11:11:58 pm
Simple, could you restate your case on scriver? Why didn't you ever answer his question?To add to this, since I didn't realize some of the more interesting nuances of the situation...
Why are you voting BD still? You don't seem to have been questioning him much. What's your suspect list, in order, and why?
Post by: kilakan on July 24, 2011, 07:27:12 pm
@kilakan: until I find out why I had those two non-bdthemag votes, I can not reply to the end of your post. For now, @bdthemag: why arent you asking many questions? And why do you not like ours? @my voters: can you tell me why I have those votes? (except for kilakan, you already told me.) (also, I partially read the last BM game, and saw some of the questions within. I think I have a better idea of what I need to ask now)Aw what a cute dodge. You already said you thought they were pressure votes, why in your opinion might someone want to pressure you? Also can you respond to the entire rest of the post, cause saying well I can't respond to z so I won't respond to a-y is not a good answer.
Post by: UltraValican on July 24, 2011, 07:39:05 pm
My vote for jc was strictly pressure.
Unvote JC
Vote BD
You have not posted in quite along time, get your butt out here and tell us whats the hold up.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 24, 2011, 08:17:35 pm
My vote for jc was strictly pressure.Did you get the read you wanted off him, or are you unvoting for some other reason?
Unvote JC
Post by: Bdthemag on July 24, 2011, 09:18:54 pm
Post by: jc6036 on July 24, 2011, 10:16:58 pm
Post by: Vector on July 24, 2011, 10:25:50 pm
Might you suggest how to respond to them?
If he's wrong, you explain how he's wrong.
Your best recourse at this point, however, is to read back through the game, look for anything that looks bad, and then go look at all of the rest of the player's interactions to build a case. You, friend, cannot just RV anymore. You need to build a case.
Post by: jc6036 on July 24, 2011, 11:23:30 pm
Post by: Vector on July 24, 2011, 11:27:57 pm
@kilakan: you were completely right about being overly defensive. Its just something I will have to work on. Call it scummy if you will, but its an honest newbie mistake. @vector: ok, I will work on my case tonight and try to get it posted tomorrow, if thats okay.
If you need time to build your case, you should probably ask for an extension.
Like this:
Extend.
(I need time to look through the game, too. For example, this is why I am currently not voting anyone)
I am also still waiting for a lot of responses to my questions about vote targets and reasons for those targets.
Post by: Bdthemag on July 24, 2011, 11:55:09 pm
Jc The reason why im saying thing's like that instead of asking blatantly obvious questions is to see people's reactions, you don't always have to use questions to get responses. Didn't I already explain this?
@kilakan: until I find out why I had those two non-bdthemag votes, I can not reply to the end of your post.So your basically postponing his question and saying "Everyone focus on Bd now."?
Billybob care to explain what a "Non-cocksucky" explanation is to you? I told you its best not to discuss night actions, because it could lead to a long meaningless discussion.
Vector I voted JC because he would constantly go "Blah blah blah, your right.", and agree with everyone. To me it seemed like he was trying to not get anyone suspicious, so he just agree's with him.
Can the other people who are voting me give an explanation of their vote on me?
Post by: billybobfred on July 25, 2011, 12:05:22 am
Billybob care to explain what a "Non-cocksucky" explanation is to you? I told you its best not to discuss night actions, because it could lead to a long meaningless discussion.In this case, a "non-conksucky" explanation would be anything addressing how my questions were WIFOM-y. "Talking about night actions is bad", while (possibly) valid advice, does not actually answer that question.
.... I get the feeling this conversation is just going in circles and we're saying the same things over again.
Post by: Bdthemag on July 25, 2011, 12:07:42 am
Excuse me if that made no sense, im really tired.
Post by: billybobfred on July 25, 2011, 12:11:21 am
... Not sure why I feel this is important to explain, since it is clearly nothing of the sort.
oh hey ninja response.
Discussion on why someone would pick a person is, I think, the entire point of these questions.
Nobody's going to slip up and reveal they're scum if you ask them a question actually relevant to that fact.
Post by: Vector on July 25, 2011, 12:24:39 am
Nobody's going to slip up and reveal they're scum if you ask them a question actually relevant to that fact.
FALSE TRY AGAIN
Post by: jc6036 on July 25, 2011, 12:38:02 am
Post by: jc6036 on July 25, 2011, 12:46:55 am
Post by: Bdthemag on July 25, 2011, 12:53:51 am
Post by: Max White on July 25, 2011, 12:57:04 am
Votecount
Bdthemag[3]: billybobfred, Simple, UltraValican
jc6036[2]: Bdthemag, kilakan
UltraValican[1]: Twiggie
Simple[1]: IronyOwl
Not voting: Vector, jc6036
The day will end Thursday, 5:00 PM PST.
A nearby woman, annoyed at the man's constant droning, throws a bucket at he's head. To your surprise, the crier dodges and rolls out of the projectiles path with ease and the bucket clutters harmlessly to the ground. The crier brushes himself off and yells at the woman
Ha! You will need to do better than that, wench! I used was a bard before I got this job, my tumble skill was the envy of the party!
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 25, 2011, 07:08:31 am
Post by: Simple on July 25, 2011, 04:24:52 pm
@ Simple Why are you curious about who is voting/ suspicious of whom?Uhh, because that's the most basic information for good scumhunting ? If someone's not clear enough or have nothing to say on this topic then i have a reason to suspect they could be just pretending to do that.
@simple: to answer your question, I believe that two of the votes on me are just pressure votes that were never removed, and I think that bd voted for me as a rebuttal against my attacks on him. Thats not going to stop my attacks, however, and I will reveal bds true intentions soon enough. I find it suspicious how he asks barely any questions at all, and shoots down others by calling them "stupid" or "WIFOM" whilst barely giving good answers.True intentions ? That's pretty strange statement in this situation.. Could you expand this?
Fuck it. I want the reasons for votes on BDthemag, too.My vote back then was for his dodging question with wifom excuses and not doing asking any productive questions.It was more of a "Hello? Anybody there ? Answer the damn questions!" vote, right now after i reread few older posts i'm not so sure if it's the best place for my vote but i guess few more questions before i change it won't hurt.
Unvote billybobfred.Using case here seems bit odd to me, especially since i think i didn't voted him before but anyway: I didn't answered his question because his response seemed lazy and dodging to me, and maybe it's a bad reason (especially since he has been replaced) but is at least wording the same questions in other way that hard ? Also his non-voting fixation sounded to me as bit strange over-defensive scum thinking but that's hardly anything serious. And now it makes me bit confused how to use anything scriver did when dealing with kilakan to be honest.
Simple, could you restate your case on scriver? Why didn't you ever answer his question?
Why are you voting BD still? You don't seem to have been questioning him much. What's your suspect list, in order, and why?He still ignores my questions so it's bit hard to question him isn't it ? And that's main of the reasons why he still have my vote on him. And now i see he backs away when pressed so he's in my opinion playing so defensively it's suspicious. As for my suspect list: Bdthemag, jc6036( he's changing his suspects/opinions like to adjust to people currently questioning him..), ultravalican/Twiggie (not enough input to evaluate their town/scum-ness),scriver,you,Vector. But there's no one who stands out as much more scummy than others.
Can the other people who are voting me give an explanation of their vote on me?I wanted to lift my vote after you answered sufficiently on my questions but looks like you chosen to ignore them so :
Who's your second pick ? Why ? Who worries you the most ? What do you make of recent jc wavering about your vote ? Why you first press on the wifom question problem with billybobfred then back off and now you do the same thing again ?
ultravalican: How you differ your own votes between pressure and lynching ones ?
jc6036: Why you first assure us that your vote for Bd is pretty certain and promise his soon exposure as scum, and then you just withdraw ?
Twiggie: Whose questions would you name as most useful to the town ? And least useful ?
And i guess extend is a good thing right now. Or it passed already ?
Post by: Think0028 on July 25, 2011, 04:25:54 pm
Post by: Vector on July 25, 2011, 04:30:49 pm
I need to post in another game, but I intend to do the compiling for this thread this evening. Should have plenty of time.
Keep it up, guys. It is looking a hell of a lot better.
Post by: jc6036 on July 25, 2011, 06:29:16 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on July 25, 2011, 06:30:56 pm
Post by: Simple on July 25, 2011, 07:00:17 pm
@simple: When I said true intentions, I meant that I would reveal whether he was scum or townie, not just scum. I was building a case for many of the same reasons you have on him currently, but he put many of those to rest in his above posts, so I took the vote oef. I think that hir methods seemed scummy, but he explained them well and they then made sense, so I took off the pressure and am looking for someone else to question. It took him forever to explain, though, and I actually had a paragraph typed up when he put my suspicions to rest. Honestly, you were the second person on my suspect lirt because of the scriver dilemma and one of your early questions. Your question on tactics that I would expect of scum made me think that you were checking out expectations so that you could avoid them in the future. I have a question for you, How did you believe that the info gained from the tactics question help town?Why the phrase "i'm looking for someone else to question" sound like "looking for easy target"? What do you mean by scriver dilemma ?
As for the tactics question, it's very broad so it's good for starting a longer discussion, especially since it touches scum-sensitive problems which are taken more cautiously by them which ironically means it's easier to detect their truthfulness. And scum slips are very helpful for us. And i don't think scum would ask what not to do here instead asking their IC, but that's just my opinion.
Simple I wasn't aware you asked me any questions, it just seemed like you were commenting on my post's.Well, you can answer them now, then. Next time i just put them apart from commentary.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 25, 2011, 07:15:49 pm
My vote back then was for his dodging question with wifom excuses and not doing asking any productive questions.It was more of a "Hello? Anybody there ? Answer the damn questions!" vote, right now after i reread few older posts i'm not so sure if it's the best place for my vote but i guess few more questions before i change it won't hurt.It's generally good to continue pressing/reminding them when doing so, however. In this case it likely wouldn't have made much difference, but asking them something once and then sitting on your vote waiting is generally not especially productive.
Using case here seems bit odd to me, especially since i think i didn't voted him before but anyway: I didn't answered his question because his response seemed lazy and dodging to me, and maybe it's a bad reason (especially since he has been replaced) but is at least wording the same questions in other way that hard ? Also his non-voting fixation sounded to me as bit strange over-defensive scum thinking but that's hardly anything serious. And now it makes me bit confused how to use anything scriver did when dealing with kilakan to be honest.Well, you seemed to find him suspicious, so "case" seemed like a decent enough approximation. "Suspicions" or "why do you suspect him" or something might have been more accurate.
You're correct that trying to use scriver's scumtells against kilakan is... difficult, at best. Kilakan's inherited the same role, however, so if for whatever reason you were pretty sure scriver had been scum, rather than just suspecting him for some suspicious behavior, it might have made sense to similarly press kilakan.
He still ignores my questions so it's bit hard to question him isn't it ? And that's main of the reasons why he still have my vote on him. And now i see he backs away when pressed so he's in my opinion playing so defensively it's suspicious. As for my suspect list: Bdthemag, jc6036( he's changing his suspects/opinions like to adjust to people currently questioning him..), ultravalican/Twiggie (not enough input to evaluate their town/scum-ness),scriver,you,Vector. But there's no one who stands out as much more scummy than others.Again, constantly reminding him that he had questions you want answered is generally better than sitting on your vote.
Similarly, you might want to just ask them again, since he's claimed to have been busy/not paying attention.
Post by: Max White on July 25, 2011, 07:38:22 pm
Twiggie has been poked.
Post by: kilakan on July 25, 2011, 07:56:45 pm
@kilakan: you were completely right about being overly defensive. Its just something I will have to work on. Call it scummy if you will, but its an honest newbie mistake. @vector: ok, I will work on my case tonight and try to get it posted tomorrow, if thats okay.Uh huh, ok then that's a better reply. Since I don't have time tonight to read through the new two pages, quote and make arguments I'll leave it at this for now: Unvote
also I am happy for the extend.
Post by: jc6036 on July 25, 2011, 11:15:10 pm
Post by: Vector on July 26, 2011, 02:22:12 am
Never fear, it'll get done quickish.
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 27, 2011, 09:04:19 am
Post by: UltraValican on July 27, 2011, 09:14:55 am
Post by: billybobfred on July 27, 2011, 09:29:32 am
I just... ran out of things to say. =/
Post by: Vector on July 27, 2011, 09:35:12 am
Yeah, I'm here. Woke up a tad bit too late, though, so I'll have to post later today. Damned German class.
Post by: Think0028 on July 27, 2011, 10:46:05 am
Post by: jc6036 on July 27, 2011, 11:37:18 am
Post by: Bdthemag on July 27, 2011, 01:01:28 pm
Post by: webadict on July 27, 2011, 02:17:29 pm
Post by: Simple on July 27, 2011, 02:36:52 pm
@simple: I honestly dont know how you changed "looking for some one else to question" to "looking for an easy target". Bdthemag put my suspicions to rest, so im finding someone else to question. And by the scriver dilemma, I mean when you and scriver were trying to get each other to answer questions. Which neither of you did. Now, a question, what would be your favorite strategy if you were scum?You're strangely stirred by something i added to my answer just to point out how strange it sounds when compared to your previous statements. Maybe because you believe that you could have sound scummy and just assumed you made a slip there? As for my favorite strategy, it probably be to forget that i'm scum till night or until my partner becomes directly endangered. I won't probably plan anything more than focus on the easy targets at day and kill hard ones at night.
I'm still here.So few questions for you : What makes good scum ? What do you think about kilakan ?
I just... ran out of things to say. =/
Also here, was just waiting for Vector to post :/You could also answer my questions:
I wanted to lift my vote after you answered sufficiently on my questions but looks like you chosen to ignore them so :Unless you don't care to help town by clearing yourself ? And why the hell you wait for vector ? You want to focus on her target ? Or you don't have anything to say on your own ?
Who's your second pick ? Why ? Who worries you the most ? What do you make of recent jc wavering about your vote ? Why you first press on the wifom question problem with billybobfred then back off and now you do the same thing again ?
Post by: jc6036 on July 27, 2011, 04:29:02 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 27, 2011, 05:08:30 pm
Also here, was just waiting for Vector to post :/What for, specifically?
kilakan, who are your scumpicks? What's your read on BD?
Post by: billybobfred on July 27, 2011, 05:13:52 pm
So few questions for you : What makes good scum ? What do you think about kilakan ?Far as I can tell, being sneaky and undetected (i.e. looking like town) would be the Number One Desired Trait™, but beyond that I don't really know what makes good scum.
Kilakan... well, he just subbed in, so I don't have a whole lot on him. He replaced scriver, who was passive as all hell (though there were apparently real-world issues involved there?), and the first thing he did was push the hell out of jc. And... that also appears to be the only thing. He seemed to be satisfied with jc's responses when he dropped it, but hasn't done much since then. He did say he was busy, but... More than anything, right now kilakan is confusing. Confusing is bad.
He's got 26 hours, though. (assuming i haven't fucked up with time zones again) (also assuming we don't choose to move the day end again)
Post by: kilakan on July 27, 2011, 06:03:38 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on July 27, 2011, 06:57:16 pm
Simple Your my second pick, partly because of your oddly aggresive behavior and the whole Scriver thing. I don't know why JC wavered the vote, it could have been in fear of gaining more attention for being on the bandwagon, or something else. I backed off on Billybob because I realized what I said back then made no fucking sense, I mistook WIFOM with questions about roles. I still think he was rolefishing though.
There, happy?
Post by: IronyOwl on July 27, 2011, 07:00:51 pm
Also here, was just waiting for Vector to post :/What for, specifically?
Also, crap. That's a lot of missing people. :-\
Post by: Bdthemag on July 27, 2011, 07:02:20 pm
Irony mainly because she was going to give an analysis on everyone, so we could talk more about that. We kinda stopped arguing awhile ago, so I assumed most of us was just waiting on Vector.
Post by: Vector on July 27, 2011, 07:36:19 pm
Well, at the moment I have some German stuff I absolutely have to get done, but when I'm done with about half of it I'll pop in.
Post by: Reverie on July 27, 2011, 09:42:56 pm
Other than that, I am in nincompoop's ' Witch's Coven' mafia spinoff, which may require more concentration than a second game would allow. I would love to join, but it does not seem as if that would work out.
I don't want to see this end like the last BM!
Post by: webadict on July 27, 2011, 10:01:39 pm
I would imagine being a replacement is like jumping onto a train at full steam, and as that would make me nervous, so does this...It's more like watching a bunch of people running from an avalanche and deciding, "Sure, that looks fun."
Other than that, I am in nincompoop's ' Witch's Coven' mafia spinoff, which may require more concentration than a second game would allow. I would love to join, but it does not seem as if that would work out.
I don't want to see this end like the last BM!
Post by: Think0028 on July 27, 2011, 10:18:27 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 27, 2011, 10:22:02 pm
Post by: Reverie on July 27, 2011, 10:27:02 pm
I like your analogy better. Heh, and I suppose you find running from an avalanche an easy decision?I would imagine being a replacement is like jumping onto a train at full steam, and as that would make me nervous, so does this...It's more like watching a bunch of people running from an avalanche and deciding, "Sure, that looks fun."
Other than that, I am in nincompoop's ' Witch's Coven' mafia spinoff, which may require more concentration than a second game would allow. I would love to join, but it does not seem as if that would work out.
I don't want to see this end like the last BM!
Oh, wait; I forget you are a penguin.
Post by: Think0028 on July 27, 2011, 10:29:30 pm
Post by: webadict on July 27, 2011, 11:10:14 pm
I don't run. I slide. That avalanche? Psh. Screw the people behind me.I like your analogy better. Heh, and I suppose you find running from an avalanche an easy decision?I would imagine being a replacement is like jumping onto a train at full steam, and as that would make me nervous, so does this...It's more like watching a bunch of people running from an avalanche and deciding, "Sure, that looks fun."
Other than that, I am in nincompoop's ' Witch's Coven' mafia spinoff, which may require more concentration than a second game would allow. I would love to join, but it does not seem as if that would work out.
I don't want to see this end like the last BM!
Oh, wait; I forget you are a penguin.
Oh wait, some of them have guns.
Anyhow, I'll catch up fully tomorrow. Alright everyone?
Post by: Max White on July 28, 2011, 03:54:55 am
Post by: Vector on July 28, 2011, 03:05:40 pm
We need time for people to look over stuff (i.e. replacements and, well, me), and we're nowhere near the "end" of D1.
Post by: Think0028 on July 28, 2011, 03:16:21 pm
Post by: jc6036 on July 28, 2011, 03:28:00 pm
Post by: Vector on July 28, 2011, 03:30:12 pm
Most of the games on this forum tend to stay pretty active and powerful, though.
Post by: webadict on July 28, 2011, 04:48:12 pm
So. . . .do most beginners games have the problems this one does? (people dropping out, low activity, etc.)The problem is new people don't understand the effort a game takes. Anyhow, I'll start looking over now.
Post by: webadict on July 28, 2011, 05:05:33 pm
One, we're not lynching jc. Or Bdthemag.
Two, Vector.
Post by: Vector on July 28, 2011, 05:08:34 pm
It'd also be cool to have a question or something with that vote, but I'll admit that I'm actually so happy at this point to have someone engaging me that I don't really care ;_;
Post by: webadict on July 28, 2011, 05:15:09 pm
Fair enough. Can you explain your reasoning on BDthemag? I agree with you on JC at this point, but I don't have any read on the other dude.Why is it "fair enough" that I want you dead? Are you that scummy?
It'd also be cool to have a question or something with that vote, but I'll admit that I'm actually so happy at this point to have someone engaging me that I don't really care ;_;
Post by: Vector on July 28, 2011, 05:19:32 pm
I wasn't aware you wanted to lynch me, which does seem unreasonable without a case of any sort.
Post by: webadict on July 28, 2011, 05:37:05 pm
It's fair enough that you want to vote me and hopefully determine my alignment, given that this is the first vote I've received all game and I haven't been on anyone for the past few days =/ If you'd voted someone else, I think I would have been disappointed.Of course I want to lynch you. Why would I vote you otherwise? Don't assume I'm like you where your vote means nothing if it lands on someone. I got to page 9 and couldn't stand your passiveness. You weren't participating in the actual game.
I wasn't aware you wanted to lynch me, which does seem unreasonable without a case of any sort.
Post by: Vector on July 28, 2011, 06:07:34 pm
I am having a very, very hard time managing between ICing and playing. This is a game where two playing ICs are required; I feel that the job of ICing has been delegated to me due to IronyOwl's repeated absences, and I cannot make much traction on scumhunting when I am too busy trying to tell everyone what to do and what not to do. I am also terrified of attacking some newbie to the point where they run screaming out of the game or allow themselves to be lynched (or to the point where it kills all activity in general), because it's something that just seems to keep on happening.
I still want to know why you have cleared BDthemag, having apparently read only the first 6.5 pages of the game.
IronyOwl, please give me your top two scumpicks.
Post by: jc6036 on July 28, 2011, 06:18:03 pm
Post by: webadict on July 28, 2011, 06:24:12 pm
Another reason to vote me would be, as I mentioned, because I haven't received any other vote all game.I never said I cleared Bd. I said we aren't lynching him. Two totally different concepts.
I am having a very, very hard time managing between ICing and playing. This is a game where two playing ICs are required; I feel that the job of ICing has been delegated to me due to IronyOwl's repeated absences, and I cannot make much traction on scumhunting when I am too busy trying to tell everyone what to do and what not to do. I am also terrified of attacking some newbie to the point where they run screaming out of the game or allow themselves to be lynched (or to the point where it kills all activity in general), because it's something that just seems to keep on happening.
I still want to know why you have cleared BDthemag, having apparently read only the first 6.5 pages of the game.
Why are you letting me get free shots at you? Last-game-you was so much more aggressive. You weren't "terrified of attacking some newbie" last game.
All-in-all, you're putting up a terrible defense. One that might work on someone that had any emotion. I, on the other hand, feel no sympathy for you. You signed up for this job, and while it is a shame Irony is elsewhere, you are still doing more talk than action. Why don't you lead through doing?
Fight back. What would YOU do if someone sat there? Ask for more information? Sure. Emotionally weigh your words? I don't think so. Come up with excuses? Never. You should be like, "Oh, was I doing that? Screw old Vector, then."
Oh, and way to pick on the person you ADMIT is absent.
Webadict is listed as an IC in the OP, so you should have some help now, vector. (Although it wasnt you that caused it, I was at the point of quitting once. :P )Get playing. No one told you to stop, did they?
Post by: jc6036 on July 28, 2011, 06:33:52 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on July 28, 2011, 06:35:05 pm
@webadict: waiting on an answer from Simple, and I think I have a good read on BD. Have you read the entire thread? Also, no need to be so commanding, just a simple "start playing again, please." would have sufficed.You obviously haven't played with Wuba yet.
Post by: jc6036 on July 28, 2011, 06:36:26 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on July 28, 2011, 06:44:39 pm
IronyOwl, please give me your top two scumpicks.Attempting to reread now to do more useful things (including re-involving everyone still here), but just off the top of my head, Simple and Twiggie seem off. Obviously, Twiggie's absence makes that rather irrelevant.
There's also you. Voting me and giving a little speech about how I've been dumping IC responsibilities on you, after wuba votes you, seems a bit deflectiony.
@webadict: waiting on an answer from Simple, and I think I have a good read on BD. Have you read the entire thread? Also, no need to be so commanding, just a simple "start playing again, please." would have sufficed.While I am not the greatest role model at the moment, there are other people you could question.
Two things.I'd like to point out that teaching others to play is generally more important than winning. While I have great confidence in your style as used by you, I suspect it'll just be confusing to the wee ones. You might want to explain yourself better or use more traditional methods.
One, we're not lynching jc. Or Bdthemag.
Two, Vector.
Post by: webadict on July 28, 2011, 07:12:26 pm
@webadict: waiting on an answer from Simple, and I think I have a good read on BD. Have you read the entire thread? Also, no need to be so commanding, just a simple "start playing again, please." would have sufficed.That WAS the my way of putting it.
The point you don't get is that you don't get a free pass to sit here and do nothing but activelurk. You may do something productive otherwise, such as find more evidence or question someone else. I won't accept "waiting" as an answer, unless you're "waiting" to die.
Hm... you have a point. I'll attempt to provide more evidence in the future, lest I require otherwise.Two things.I'd like to point out that teaching others to play is generally more important than winning. While I have great confidence in your style as used by you, I suspect it'll just be confusing to the wee ones. You might want to explain yourself better or use more traditional methods.
One, we're not lynching jc. Or Bdthemag.
Two, Vector.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 28, 2011, 07:45:48 pm
Bd, give me your reads on everyone. If you haven't got one, just say so, but then explain why you're not getting one.
billybobfred, why are you sitting on your BD vote? Do you think he's scum? Why or why not?
Simple, please restate your case on Bdthemag, as well as any other scumpicks you have.
JC, why are you only questioning one person at a time?
wuba, why aren't we lynching JC or Bd today?
Vector, scumpicks?
IronyOwl, please give me your top two scumpicks.More meaningful answers:
Bd is town. His style seems very simplistic, perhaps a bit lost, but earnest. If he is scum, he's got a remarkably unusual outlook on it.
billybobfred seems slippery. He's been decrying his own usefulness, sort of flailing around, and generally being nervous.
Simple still seems off. Could be awkwardness from mostly knowing what he's doing but still being new, or he could be scum doing a good job of relentlessly attacking anyone he can get some traction on.
JC clearly doesn't know what he's doing. Hard to figure anything out from that.
No reads on you or web.
Post by: Think0028 on July 28, 2011, 11:48:53 pm
Post by: jc6036 on July 29, 2011, 01:41:54 am
Post by: IronyOwl on July 29, 2011, 02:40:16 am
As for your last question:
The day is modextended to Tuesday, to allow for replacements to come in.
Post by: Vector on July 29, 2011, 08:20:34 am
Fuck.
Anyway, I have two hours to study for an exam, three hours to take it, and two hours of transit total--so expect me back and being useful around then.
Post by: billybobfred on July 29, 2011, 10:52:01 am
billybobfred, why are you sitting on your BD vote? Do you think he's scum? Why or why not?I'm still not sure if I'm satisfied with his answer. It's an improvement over his previous answers in that it actually addressed the thing I was asking, but it's a really shitty "oops that did not mean what i thought it meant" type of answer. I guess two people using a word differently can lead to long, pointless, circular arguments, but I explained real early (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462437#msg2462437) how I was using the word, and if he thought it meant something else, that was his opportunity to bring it up.
If I had to pick a Number One Scum Suspect™, yeah, it'd probably be him. But it's close.
Post by: jc6036 on July 29, 2011, 10:54:54 am
Post by: Think0028 on July 29, 2011, 12:10:57 pm
Post by: billybobfred on July 29, 2011, 12:23:51 pm
You missed my question, billybob.So I did. Oops.
@billybobfred: You seem to be focusing on Bd recently, what are you going to do now since he has explained the WIFOM situation?I dunno. He's gotten real lurky lately, but then again, so has everyone.
Post by: Simple on July 29, 2011, 01:43:46 pm
@simple: If you recall, you asked me why "looking for someone to question" sounded like "looking for an easy target." I didnt think that it sounded like that at all, and thought it obvious that I had a read on BD and wanted to move on. Also, Simple, you said that you would look for easy targets if you were scum. As the newest player here, I think that Im a pretty easy target. So, what do you look for in an easy target? And how about a hard target?You seem pretty agitated by this simple remark, that's weird especially that was just me saying you don't sound too convincing. So maybe that wasn't such unsuitable description. Another thing : stop complaining how new or bad at playing you are , it sounds like you say it just to make us lift pressure off you.Easy target : someone who answers emotionally or is completely focused on one suspect. The second one in my opinion is easy because if someone focus on one person they find it confusing to find reasonable arguments to retaliate (of course if the attack is sensible ).
3 Replacements? Ugh...Nope. You say it was bandwagon ? Why ? And how do you want to get scum without being at least a bit aggressive ? So if you thought it was rolefishing why you have not pointed it out instead going into useless debate about wifom definition ? Why are you so passive ? I have not seen a single attack or serious question on your own initiative, everything you do is answering question in most vague way possible. Could you sum up your case on jc ?
Simple Your my second pick, partly because of your oddly aggresive behavior and the whole Scriver thing. I don't know why JC wavered the vote, it could have been in fear of gaining more attention for being on the bandwagon, or something else. I backed off on Billybob because I realized what I said back then made no fucking sense, I mistook WIFOM with questions about roles. I still think he was rolefishing though.
There, happy?
Simple, please restate your case on Bdthemag, as well as any other scumpicks you have.He started with using the wifom talk as a defense from few sensible questions, while doing nothing but arguing about the definitions and general concepts instead of scumhunting. Aside of his passiveness he also never clearly stated why he's voting jc and now he says he will just wait for vector. If it's not scummy waiting for good occasion to use his vote i don't know what it is.(I exclude laziness since if someone have time to post that he waits he could do something more productive and useful.) There's a small number of minor thhings that make me think he's scum like his eagerness to accept lifting votes off him without single comment or reluctance to state his opinion on scum tactics and never stating more than one read/opinion on someone at one time( As if he was adjusting the rest to the situation at hand).
Mod:Could i ask for vote summary ? And list of replacements ?
Post by: Think0028 on July 29, 2011, 01:51:22 pm
Post by: Think0028 on July 29, 2011, 01:55:27 pm
Bdthemag[2]: billybobfred, Simple
jc6036[2]: Bdthemag, kilakan
billybobfred[1]: IronyOwl
webadict[1]: Twiggie
Simple[1]: jc6036
IronyOwl[1]: Vector
Vector[1]: webadict
Not Voting: Urist Mcinternetuser
The day will end Tuesday, 5:00 PM PST. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Twiggie still needs a replacement.
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on July 29, 2011, 02:35:11 pm
Post by: jc6036 on July 29, 2011, 03:06:23 pm
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on July 29, 2011, 03:17:50 pm
Post by: Reverie on July 29, 2011, 03:19:07 pm
Post by: jc6036 on July 29, 2011, 03:22:18 pm
Post by: Think0028 on July 29, 2011, 03:22:37 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on July 29, 2011, 03:32:06 pm
I am sorry for interrupting, but has anyone here who is waiting for 'Witch's Coven' received a role PM yet? I would like to sub into this game, but I am tied down to that one, and I don't want to be impolite by leaving lordnincompoop to find a replacement for me...
Honestly, I don't think it'll be that demanding. I'm still working on the flavour, unfortunately (I've managed to finish a portion, and the balancing's done at least), and it'll be a few days at least until everything's done.
If you really do think that you won't be able to handle two games at once, feel free to leave it, but I don't think you have anything to worry about.
Flandre: PM LNCP and see what point of the process he's at. I know he didn't need as many players as did sign up for a full game, so it may be okay if you drop out of Witch's Coven and sign up for this one.
Well, uh, I got a bit carried away. >.>
Post by: Reverie on July 29, 2011, 03:56:10 pm
Honestly, I don't think it'll be that demanding. I'm still working on the flavour, unfortunately (I've managed to finish a portion, and the balancing's done at least), and it'll be a few days at least until everything's done.
If you really do think that you won't be able to handle two games at once, feel free to leave it, but I don't think you have anything to worry about.
I will gladly join this game as a replacement and still remain a part of yours, then. Thank you, lordnincompoop!
Post by: Think0028 on July 29, 2011, 04:28:00 pm
Post by: Reverie on July 29, 2011, 04:39:13 pm
Flandre will replace Twiggy. Yay! We're back at full!I may be a little conservative to start, but that is just to browse the game and gauge the players! I have some catching up to do.
Post by: webadict on July 29, 2011, 07:34:38 pm
wuba, why aren't we lynching JC or Bd today?Because I feel like they're just really stupid Town. Or at least JC is. Bd I chose not to because I feel Vector is being super scum, and if Vector's for him, then that's just no good to me.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 29, 2011, 08:44:27 pm
I'm still not sure if I'm satisfied with his answer. It's an improvement over his previous answers in that it actually addressed the thing I was asking, but it's a really shitty "oops that did not mean what i thought it meant" type of answer. I guess two people using a word differently can lead to long, pointless, circular arguments, but I explained real early (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462437#msg2462437) how I was using the word, and if he thought it meant something else, that was his opportunity to bring it up.Except, you're not pushing him or asking him anything; you haven't interacted with him at all in a long time. If it's "close," why aren't you pushing him and your other suspect(s) to see which one(s) are scum? If you're "not sure" that you're "satisfied" with his answer, why aren't you making sure or calling him out on it?
If I had to pick a Number One Scum Suspect™, yeah, it'd probably be him. But it's close.
Furthermore, who is it close to? I haven't seen you accuse anyone else, at least in a long while, and yet now you've got someone who's close to your only stated suspicion all game? Who?
Just finished reading through everything. My vote goes to jc6036No. You do not vote someone without explaining why.
Sure jc, I voted for you because you seem pretty shifty, you change your views a lot, constantly accuse people, deflect questions with complaints about noobiness, and it seemed like as soon as you started getting some pressure you wanted to leave the game.So it's a lynchvote? You feel confident enough to lynch him just from reading the rest of the game, without doing any questioning of your own?
@urist: fair enough, i have been changing around a lot.Do you think he's justified in lynching you then?
Excellent. In the meantime, would you rather be a cop or a doctor? What about godfather or roleblocker?Flandre will replace Twiggy. Yay! We're back at full!I may be a little conservative to start, but that is just to browse the game and gauge the players! I have some catching up to do.
Because I feel like they're just really stupid Town. Or at least JC is. Bd I chose not to because I feel Vector is being super scum, and if Vector's for him, then that's just no good to me.What makes you say JC is stupid town, and what makes you say Vector wouldn't bus her nooby comrade?
Post by: webadict on July 29, 2011, 09:31:22 pm
Because I really doubt leading the lynch on her partner would help her out unless she's a Godfather, which is possible, but all the factors point toward that that is incredibly unlikely.Because I feel like they're just really stupid Town. Or at least JC is. Bd I chose not to because I feel Vector is being super scum, and if Vector's for him, then that's just no good to me.What makes you say JC is stupid town, and what makes you say Vector wouldn't bus her nooby comrade?
Also, it wouldn't teach a newbie much to bus them, unless they were being legitimately scummy.
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on July 29, 2011, 09:54:40 pm
But I get what you're saying.
Post by: Reverie on July 29, 2011, 10:31:05 pm
Between being a doctor and a cop, I would choose to be a cop. Doctors face the difficult task of protecting who they believe is the same townie the scum would kill to remain inconspicuous. For the scum, that ideal kill is one that appears random, and as such, there is more luck than skill involved in the doctor's decision. It is not even guaranteed that the recipient of the doctor's protection is even town at all.Excellent. In the meantime, would you rather be a cop or a doctor? What about godfather or roleblocker?Flandre will replace Twiggy. Yay! We're back at full!I may be a little conservative to start, but that is just to browse the game and gauge the players! I have some catching up to do.
To answer the second half of your question, both the godfather and the roleblocker would seem to be equally as useful. Personally, though, I would choose to be a godfather, if only for the reduced chances of getting lynched outside of my control.
I have not looked into the discussion deeply enough to formulate any questions; that will come after I read it again more closely.
However, I would like to note, Urist, that your accusatory statement against jc seems a little more than doubtful. Yours is probably one of the most concrete decision in the thread, and it was dealt immediately upon joining.
Post by: IronyOwl on July 29, 2011, 10:41:10 pm
Think's Lurker Tracker (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=86473.0) is an extremely handy tool for gathering everyone's posts into neat little rows. Obviously, you can miss or notice things using it that you wouldn't have just reading the thread normally, so you should still do things the traditional way, but there's times when it can be absolutely invaluable.
webadict, but what says noobtown about JC? I haven't really noticed that myself.
@IronyOwlIf I'm not mistaken, there is no proof of anything at this stage of the game, so we're just basing our accusations off of people's reactions, and I feel that jc has said enough to make me doubt him.There's never going to be any "proof" of anything. There'll be varying degrees of strength to our evidence, but it'll almost never be anything ironclad.
You say JC has said enough to make you doubt him, but you're not asking him anything, or indeed doing nothing else with the game. You're voting him, then waiting for him to be lynched. Why is that?
But I get what you're saying.And yet, you're still not doing anything about it. Don't you have anyone at all you want to know anything at all about?
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on July 29, 2011, 10:54:24 pm
Post by: webadict on July 29, 2011, 11:23:14 pm
webadict, but what says noobtown about JC? I haven't really noticed that myself.What have you noticed?
Post by: IronyOwl on July 30, 2011, 01:13:29 am
Mostly what I said in my omniquestion/revised suspect list post. He doesn't know what he's doing, but I didn't really get any sense of alignment from that.webadict, but what says noobtown about JC? I haven't really noticed that myself.What have you noticed?
Post by: webadict on July 30, 2011, 01:56:23 am
If he has no idea what he's doing, then what's the logical answer?Mostly what I said in my omniquestion/revised suspect list post. He doesn't know what he's doing, but I didn't really get any sense of alignment from that.webadict, but what says noobtown about JC? I haven't really noticed that myself.What have you noticed?
Post by: IronyOwl on July 30, 2011, 02:10:45 am
Got frickin' Holmes the Penguin in here. ಠ_ಠ
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on July 30, 2011, 02:25:40 am
Post by: Reverie on July 30, 2011, 09:39:56 am
@Flandre What's wrong with starting off with an accusation? I had just read through the whole topic, and I strongly felt that jc was scum.There is nothing wrong with making accusations, but you just seem so sure of his guilt so soon.
Jc has said some things that seemed off, but it only takes one misstep to spark a line of interrogations. He was under a lot of pressure, and had to say much to explain himself. Even a townie, especially as played by a novice, can say something off eventually; the interrogation magnet would, as a result, be tossed to him. I am not saying I disagree with you, but from the neutral perspective that I have adopted upon joining, you simply just stood out with your comment.
Post by: Reverie on July 30, 2011, 10:10:38 am
a viable scum tactic would be to (sometimes unquestionably) vote out a townie with whom the town has already laid suspicion.
Urist, jc: Would you consider the above tactic as one that is currently in progress? Explain your reasoning.
Post by: webadict on July 30, 2011, 10:21:15 am
...god damn it webadict, stop Zenning me out. If he doesn't know what he's doing, then he doesn't have LNCP (or a scumbuddy) coaching him, then he must be town.It's all elementary, my dear IronyOwl.
Got frickin' Holmes the Penguin in here. ಠ_ಠ
The only reason that reasoning would be wrong, and this is very possible, is that he is playing from his phone, and therefore unable to access Quicktopic as often, meaning any advice from LNCP wouldn't reach him in time. However, look at this question:
@vector: you, in order to answer your question about preferable scum buddies. I have a question, is it possible for an IC to be scum?
Which means that IF he's scum, then no IC is scum, as a scum with an IC partner would know this.
And also, I doubt any new scum would post something like this:
@kilakan: you were completely right about being overly defensive. Its just something I will have to work on. Call it scummy if you will, but its an honest newbie mistake. @vector: ok, I will work on my case tonight and try to get it posted tomorrow, if thats okay.
It's honestly too heartfelt. If he did this as scum, then he is too far beyond anything we can teach him here.
Like I said, elementary. It's more likely he's new town, confused about how to play the game.
Vector, on the other hand, has been activelurking, using her ICing to teach more than she's playing. She even used an appeal to authority earlier. Quite the suspicious lass over there. I have a doubt that she's just THAT into her IC position, so I'll assume that she's using it as a cover to not do as much scumhunting. I know, since I've done it on several occasions. It's easy, since you have something to say that's not game related, but IS saying something.
Post by: billybobfred on July 30, 2011, 10:24:16 am
Except, you're not pushing him or asking him anything; you haven't interacted with him at all in a long time. If it's "close," why aren't you pushing him and your other suspect(s) to see which one(s) are scum? If you're "not sure" that you're "satisfied" with his answer, why aren't you making sure or calling him out on it?My other suspect is jc, but everyone seems to suspect him.
Furthermore, who is it close to? I haven't seen you accuse anyone else, at least in a long while, and yet now you've got someone who's close to your only stated suspicion all game? Who?
I don't really know where to go with bd's answer.
Billybob I realize I made a mistake about what you said before, talking about night actions is somewhat okay. Your not really going to get alot of info on them besides who that person would target if they were X. Sure it can lead to mroe discussion on why they would pick who, but its not a good source of finding information.
... Actually, no. Never let me say something about someone's posts without a citation again, because rereading this, I find it still doesn't answer the question I actually wanted answered!
Bdthemag: Why the hell do you keep answering the "night actions r turrible" part of my question when I was pretty much satisfied with that the first time and ignoring the "wait, my questions were WIFOM?" part that started the whole argument?
@billybobfred: is your current vote on bd still pressure, or is it a lynching vote?I very nearly missed your question again! Line breaks and [b]bold[/b] names! Especially line breaks!
I'm not sure at what point a pressure vote over something that consistently doesn't get answered becomes a lynch vote.
Post by: webadict on July 30, 2011, 11:10:37 am
That is just untrue. I don't. I find him to be very much town. Why do you include me in this "everyone?" Please don't lie when the post above you says the exact opposite.Except, you're not pushing him or asking him anything; you haven't interacted with him at all in a long time. If it's "close," why aren't you pushing him and your other suspect(s) to see which one(s) are scum? If you're "not sure" that you're "satisfied" with his answer, why aren't you making sure or calling him out on it?My other suspect is jc, but everyone seems to suspect him.
Furthermore, who is it close to? I haven't seen you accuse anyone else, at least in a long while, and yet now you've got someone who's close to your only stated suspicion all game? Who?
Why do you suspect him?
Post by: billybobfred on July 30, 2011, 11:32:03 am
You did say that you saw him as town and I guess I wasn't paying much attention to that for some reason? (another reason never to let me say things without a citation) So I guess it is not "everyone" that suspects jc so much as "a lot of people".
Post by: webadict on July 30, 2011, 11:47:09 am
I suspect him because he's actively hiding behind the noob shield. It seems wrong, somehow.Explain further on this "noob shield." I have a real doubt people intend to be intentionally ignorant. You seem to have ignored the fact that, quite possibly, he IS new. Now, someone new in a beginner game... Impossible, yes?
You did say that you saw him as town and I guess I wasn't paying much attention to that for some reason? (another reason never to let me say things without a citation) So I guess it is not "everyone" that suspects jc so much as "a lot of people".
Post by: Reverie on July 30, 2011, 11:49:51 am
I'd like to note that I do updates if im feeling like it (Which is most of the time.), its just im not in a really good mood so and I prefer not to update while in a bad mood. Okay?
Post by: billybobfred on July 30, 2011, 11:54:15 am
Explain further on this "noob shield." I have a real doubt people intend to be intentionally ignorant. You seem to have ignored the fact that, quite possibly, he IS new. Now, someone new in a beginner game... Impossible, yes?Obviously he's new. He wouldn't be able to hide behind the noob shield if he wasn't new, because he wouldn't have a noob shield.
It's actively hiding behind the noob shield that bugs me.
Post by: jc6036 on July 30, 2011, 12:15:09 pm
@Flandre: I dont think that that tactic is in progress right now, since I was acting scummy earlier. I could be wrong, and the addition of Urist has made me wonder about him.
Post by: webadict on July 30, 2011, 12:37:48 pm
Which begs the question as to how a newbie would learn if they're not allowed to show that they have a lack of information in one area or another or signify that they are, in fact, new.Explain further on this "noob shield." I have a real doubt people intend to be intentionally ignorant. You seem to have ignored the fact that, quite possibly, he IS new. Now, someone new in a beginner game... Impossible, yes?Obviously he's new. He wouldn't be able to hide behind the noob shield if he wasn't new, because he wouldn't have a noob shield.
It's actively hiding behind the noob shield that bugs me.
Ohhhh. . .urists vote was a lynch vote. I just assumed that I was the first person he wanted to question, and it was pre emptive pressure. As for line breaks, its nigh on impossible to make line breaks when posting from a phone. @billybobfred: If you havnt noticed, Ive actually been trying to drop the "noob shield" since it seems to bug so many people. @urist: I dont really know at this point, but my order of suspicion is: Simple, bdthemag, you, (now) vector (since webadict has pointed out something I think we all missed), Urist McInternetuser, everybody else.What did I point out on Vector?
@Flandre: I dont think that that tactic is in progress right now, since I was acting scummy earlier. I could be wrong, and the addition of Urist has made me wonder about him.
Post by: jc6036 on July 30, 2011, 12:42:30 pm
Post by: Simple on July 30, 2011, 01:25:24 pm
This sounds more like jc defense than pointing out flaw in urist play. And do you intend to maintain this 'neutral' stance ? That's not something i would name very good in mafia game. Well maybe not outright bad but anyway it's strange thing to call upon.@Flandre What's wrong with starting off with an accusation? I had just read through the whole topic, and I strongly felt that jc was scum.There is nothing wrong with making accusations, but you just seem so sure of his guilt so soon.
Jc has said some things that seemed off, but it only takes one misstep to spark a line of interrogations. He was under a lot of pressure, and had to say much to explain himself. Even a townie, especially as played by a novice, can say something off eventually; the interrogation magnet would, as a result, be tossed to him. I am not saying I disagree with you, but from the neutral perspective that I have adopted upon joining, you simply just stood out with your comment.
-snip-Well maybe you're right , when i look at all her posts from perspective there's really scarce number of non-IC teaching content in them. However it's hard for me to judge how the IC's were meant to work so for now i'll take your word that's not enough playing and too much teaching.
Ohhhh. . .urists vote was a lynch vote. I just assumed that I was the first person he wanted to question, and it was pre emptive pressure. As for line breaks, its nigh on impossible to make line breaks when posting from a phone. @billybobfred: If you havnt noticed, Ive actually been trying to drop the "noob shield" since it seems to bug so many people. @urist: I dont really know at this point, but my order of suspicion is: Simple, bdthemag, you, (now) vector (since webadict has pointed out something I think we all missed), Urist McInternetuser, everybody else.So what's exactly your case on me except being a bit aggressive ( i feel like i'm aggressive enough to be frank so i'm not sure what to say about that) and not answering lazy questions ? Also, are you alright with no-reason votes on you ? Wait, you say you've been doing this noob shield thing purposefully ? Because i don't see how could you drop it if you were doing it unintentionally. Or i'm just mistaken what this term were to mean ?
@Flandre: I dont think that that tactic is in progress right now, since I was acting scummy earlier. I could be wrong, and the addition of Urist has made me wonder about him.
Post by: webadict on July 30, 2011, 02:36:01 pm
Well maybe you're right , when i look at all her posts from perspective there's really scarce number of non-IC teaching content in them. However it's hard for me to judge how the IC's were meant to work so for now i'll take your word that's not enough playing and too much teaching.Feel free to compare it to BM XXV part 1. She's much more aggressive in that one, though I wouldn't use that too much. I'd assume that Town Vector would ALSO be less aggressive, though she would still attempt to be much more active in actually scumhunting.
Post by: jc6036 on July 30, 2011, 02:38:14 pm
Post by: jc6036 on July 30, 2011, 02:44:20 pm
Post by: Simple on July 30, 2011, 03:09:39 pm
@bdthemag you have two questions you have to answer from me. billybobfred: you also have un answered questions. @simple: you also have a question from me in an above post. Answer it. As for the "noob shield", it was me giving the excuse that Im new to try and explaing things. When I say Im dropping that shield, it means Im going to try to stop using that as an excuse, because thats all it is. An excuse. As for my case on you, Im still not convinced you are scum. I just said you were number one on my list at the moment. You are aggresive, but I dont see much worth in your questions. It seems that you take the answers you get, and twist them around to make them seem scummy. That seems scummy to me, as scum would want to make others seem scummier than they. Its just wierd to me that you see every little thing as scummy. As for no reason votes, I am not okay with those. Im okay if they can at least give two good reasons to vote me, but a lynching vote with any less wont help town.Uh... Maybe i'm blind but i don't see any question there.Unless you're talking about 1 to 10 question from before then : 10 in scale where ten is scuminness of someone who i find most scummy at the moment.If you really need an serious answer on that let's say 6: something more that few slips but not enough to make him definite and obvious scum list leader. Really, it's hard to compare how sure i am in definite values and i i were to do that i would never use value like 1 or 10 because that never happens (unless you're scum of course) and what i would say would give you false view. About my questions, i just don't feel like i should leave out anything i find suspicious even if it's bit too small to be serious argument. And you contradict yourself in last two sentences unless you're alright with any reasonless vote that isn't lynching vote on you ?
Post by: jc6036 on July 30, 2011, 03:24:16 pm
Post by: Simple on July 30, 2011, 03:32:17 pm
I dont see how using values is scummy. Granted, I did forget to set the scale. I think I could learn more from something like this: On a scale of 1 to 100, 1 being no idea, and 100 being 100 % sure. For the vote, I meant that im okay with a vote if they have a good case against me, but not okay if its just a pressure vote someones sitting on.I'm not saying using numbers is scummy it's just completely useless in my opinion except maybe if you have very detailed system which takes into account every single word someone says. Maybe i'm exaggerating but how would you tell difference between someone with 66% and 67% ? Numbers could probably be used to track scuminness of people other than your main suspects but i just can't think of any sensible way of describing exact case with numbers. You're ok with people attacking you nevertheless if you're town or scum ? You won't defend yourself from good attack ? Because that's how i read that.
Post by: jc6036 on July 30, 2011, 03:47:32 pm
Post by: jc6036 on July 30, 2011, 03:49:22 pm
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on July 30, 2011, 03:50:27 pm
@urist: crap, I muffed up that list. It goes as follows: Simple, billybobfred, bdthemag, vector, you, every body else. I had just woken up when I wrote the original.
Thanks for clarifying that, the first one confused me.
As for voting for you. I guess I should take IronyOwl's advice, and unvote jc for now, and investigate others.
Post by: billybobfred on July 30, 2011, 04:03:10 pm
billybobfred: you also have un answered questions.Where? I assume you're referring to a question you asked, and I've answered all of those I can find.
Post by: jc6036 on July 30, 2011, 04:12:19 pm
Post by: Reverie on July 30, 2011, 04:21:58 pm
I lost my neutrality the moment I confronted Urist, and you are correct about my using jc's defense against him. I know very little about jc other than what he has scapegoated to his 'noob shield', so I cannot determine if he is scum based on what he says until he lowers it. However, since jc is one the most likely individuals to get lynched by the town, it makes sense for the scum to add a vote or two to the pile in the hopes of an easy day-one lynch in the scums' favor. If that vote can be made with very little need for the scum to say anything that might backfire and incriminate himself in the process, then all the better. Urist, you need to come up with a genuine argument if you are to attack jc, or you run the risk of appearing scummy.There is nothing wrong with making accusations, but you just seem so sure of his guilt so soon.This sounds more like jc defense than pointing out flaw in urist play. And do you intend to maintain this 'neutral' stance ? That's not something i would name very good in mafia game. Well maybe not outright bad but anyway it's strange thing to call upon.
Jc has said some things that seemed off, but it only takes one misstep to spark a line of interrogations. He was under a lot of pressure, and had to say much to explain himself. Even a townie, especially as played by a novice, can say something off eventually; the interrogation magnet would, as a result, be tossed to him. I am not saying I disagree with you, but from the neutral perspective that I have adopted upon joining, you simply just stood out with your comment.
Post by: Reverie on July 30, 2011, 04:35:06 pm
And this is where I dismantle my argument.@urist: crap, I muffed up that list. It goes as follows: Simple, billybobfred, bdthemag, vector, you, every body else. I had just woken up when I wrote the original.
Thanks for clarifying that, the first one confused me.
As for voting for you. I guess I should take IronyOwl's advice, and unvote jc for now, and investigate others.
I cannot help but feel that it will take more than IronyOwl's advice to change your mind, though.
Post by: jc6036 on July 30, 2011, 04:36:14 pm
Post by: Vector on July 30, 2011, 04:53:50 pm
I am currently in a panic over the Fucking American Congress.
I will be doing a lot of homework today. This evening or tomorrow morning I will catch up on games. Right now, I am studying and using the occasional neuron to try to figure out what I could plant in the back yard and eat.
Sorry. This isn't fair to anyone. All the same, it's what I've got.
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on July 30, 2011, 04:55:38 pm
@BDTheMag Why are you lurking?
@Webadict Do you think Vector is scum? Or are you just suspicious?
@Simple Do you think jc is scum?
Post by: Reverie on July 30, 2011, 05:01:16 pm
And this is where I dismantle my argument.EDIT: Not so much 'dismantle' as 'let it remain dormant'. Things might change, but for now my argument stands.
I cannot help but feel that it will take more than IronyOwl's advice to change your mind, though.
Post by: Reverie on July 30, 2011, 05:23:17 pm
@FlandreWhy are you so defensive of jc?He just happens to be the one people are most suspicious of; where that person is, the scum will be also. In siding with the prospective lynch victim, I can attack his accusers in the hopes of gathering valuable intel.
This should be more productive than asking sterile questions, anyway.
Post by: jc6036 on July 30, 2011, 08:34:07 pm
Post by: Max White on July 30, 2011, 08:45:13 pm
Votecount
Bdthemag[2]: billybobfred, Simple
jc6036[1]: Bdthemag
billybobfred[1]: IronyOwl
webadict[1]: Flandre
Simple[1]: jc6036
IronyOwl[1]: Vector
Vector[1]: webadict
Not Voting: Urist Mcinternetuser
The day will end Tuesday, 5:00 PM PST. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
The woman, with a smile on her face, yells back at the crier
I'll have you know my mother was a monk, and she taught me all she knew!
At this she picks up a nearby pot, throws it into the air, and as it comes down she kicks it out of the air. The pot flies accross the yard and hits the crier fair in the forehead.
Post by: Bdthemag on July 30, 2011, 10:25:24 pm
Post by: Reverie on July 30, 2011, 10:59:42 pm
Sorry folks, been busy. I'll re-read the thread and try to post tonight or tommorow.Oh, good! It is nice to see you back.
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on July 31, 2011, 12:23:37 am
Sure jc, I voted for you because you seem pretty shifty, you change your views a lot, constantly accuse people, deflect questions with complaints about noobiness, and it seemed like as soon as you started getting some pressure you wanted to leave the game.
Post by: Reverie on July 31, 2011, 08:40:50 am
@Flandre You say that I need a genuine argument to vote for jc. Did you not read my second post?I have, but only on my second read-through, and even then out of order. I attacked what I thought was a lack of a proper response (which IronyOwl even cited a bit later), and only discovered your reasoning at about the time jc's 'noob shield' was brought into question. I erred when I bundled your argument in with that, and to me it appeared to be borrowing those points against jc. I did not mean to ruffle your feathers unnecessarily, but I now have a read on you, at the very least.Sure jc, I voted for you because you seem pretty shifty, you change your views a lot, constantly accuse people, deflect questions with complaints about noobiness, and it seemed like as soon as you started getting some pressure you wanted to leave the game.
Post by: billybobfred on July 31, 2011, 10:47:11 pm
@billybobfred: that question was: Is your current vote on bd lynching or is it still pressure? Also, ive noticed you havnt been asking a lot of questions recently. Why?I answered that question. Admittedly, my answer was "I'm not sure, definitely one of those", but it was an answer.
As for your new question, I haven't been able to think of any that don't suck. I thought my first three were "kind okay i guess" at worst, but they were apparently shitty enough to get me into a long circular argument that still hasn't really been resolved and probably never provided anything useful at any point.
on a completely unrelated note, i am starting to really dislike the way bay12 plays mafia. it is probably objectively more effective than the ways i do like but urrgh so stressful. >.<
Post by: billybobfred on July 31, 2011, 10:47:47 pm
kinda*
Post by: webadict on August 01, 2011, 07:34:05 am
@Webadict Do you think Vector is scum? Or are you just suspicious?Vector is scum. Whether I think so or not is pointless if I KNOW she is.
Post by: Simple on August 01, 2011, 01:42:47 pm
@Simple Do you think jc is scum?I think he made enough scummy moves to see reason behind other people votes on him but that's not enough for me. And i think you could get answer for this question just from looking at votes : person i put my vote on is the person i think is scum. Not that answer like that would be useful to anybody.
So you believe scum would only attack person with most votes ? That's pretty silly assumption don't you think ? Also wouldn't that tactic be useless if the attacked person was scum ?@FlandreWhy are you so defensive of jc?He just happens to be the one people are most suspicious of; where that person is, the scum will be also. In siding with the prospective lynch victim, I can attack his accusers in the hopes of gathering valuable intel.
This should be more productive than asking sterile questions, anyway.
-snip-Would you mind to share your opinion on urist then ?
I did not mean to ruffle your feathers unnecessarily, but I now have a read on you, at the very least.
Post by: Reverie on August 01, 2011, 03:45:55 pm
I think it would make sense for the scum to attack the townie who has attracted the most suspicion, to ensure that one of his own would not be lynched that night. You are right that this tactic would not work if the suspect were scum, but I do not think my reasoning was silly.He just happens to be the one people are most suspicious of; where that person is, the scum will be also. In siding with the prospective lynch victim, I can attack his accusers in the hopes of gathering valuable intel.So you believe scum would only attack person with most votes ? That's pretty silly assumption don't you think ? Also wouldn't that tactic be useless if the attacked person was scum ?
This should be more productive than asking sterile questions, anyway.
As for my read on Urist, I noticed that he did not prioritize self-defense over an inquiry on what appeared to be my protection for someone else (a scum-hunting gesture). It was not much--which is why I did not bother mentioning it--but it was enough to satisfy me. I do not think Urist is scum.
Post by: Vector on August 01, 2011, 06:45:32 pm
I'm not scum, by the way, and from now on I intend to prove it. Don't copy me, guys. I've been playing dreadfully.
Rereading now.
Post by: webadict on August 01, 2011, 06:49:17 pm
I'm here. Sorry for all the crap. My life sort of shook itself up.Been waiting for this for a while.
I'm not scum, by the way, and from now on I intend to prove it. Don't copy me, guys. I've been playing dreadfully.
Rereading now.
Post by: Vector on August 01, 2011, 06:50:28 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 01, 2011, 06:59:11 pm
I'm here. Sorry for all the crap. My life sort of shook itself up.You did nothing wrong; I just hope things work out better for you!
I'm not scum, by the way, and from now on I intend to prove it. Don't copy me, guys. I've been playing dreadfully.
Rereading now.
Also, Wuba apparently knows that you are scum. Now all I need is popcorn...
Post by: Vector on August 01, 2011, 07:00:24 pm
Nothing else to it.
Post by: webadict on August 01, 2011, 07:19:23 pm
Popcorn is for lurkers.I'm here. Sorry for all the crap. My life sort of shook itself up.You did nothing wrong; I just hope things work out better for you!
I'm not scum, by the way, and from now on I intend to prove it. Don't copy me, guys. I've been playing dreadfully.
Rereading now.
Also, Wuba apparently knows that you are scum. Now all I need is popcorn...
Post by: Reverie on August 01, 2011, 07:42:04 pm
I can be that obnoxious movie-goer near the front of the theater. The one that talks at all the best moments?Popcorn is for lurkers.I'm here. Sorry for all the crap. My life sort of shook itself up.You did nothing wrong; I just hope things work out better for you!
I'm not scum, by the way, and from now on I intend to prove it. Don't copy me, guys. I've been playing dreadfully.
Rereading now.
Also, Wuba apparently knows that you are scum. Now all I need is popcorn...
Simple: If you were scum, who would you prefer as a scumbuddy, and why?
Vector: Upon rereading the thread, who do you think the scum are based on initial impressions, and why?
Post by: IronyOwl on August 01, 2011, 07:55:48 pm
This is a good attitude. It's possibly to do it poorly or take it too far, obviously, but looking at bandwagons, even supposedly justified ones, can be very helpful in reading others' intentions.@FlandreWhy are you so defensive of jc?He just happens to be the one people are most suspicious of; where that person is, the scum will be also. In siding with the prospective lynch victim, I can attack his accusers in the hopes of gathering valuable intel.
This should be more productive than asking sterile questions, anyway.
on a completely unrelated note, i am starting to really dislike the way bay12 plays mafia. it is probably objectively more effective than the ways i do like but urrgh so stressful. >.<It's definitely a somewhat intense way to do it, but you'll get used to the stress, similar to how one gets used to the stress of playing scum vs playing town.
I think it would make sense for the scum to attack the townie who has attracted the most suspicion, to ensure that one of his own would not be lynched that night. You are right that this tactic would not work if the suspect were scum, but I do not think my reasoning was silly.Not true. Even if they're scum, there's the chance to catch their partner(s) refusing or deciding to jump onto their partner's bandwagon. It's also useful just for getting more data on how various people think and act, and could potentially serve as a control example for later.
Flandre, you're not doing anything. You were doing stuff, but near as I can tell you've had all your questions answered. Time to resume hunting, yes?
NINJA'D: Good start.
JC, time to hunt. You've had isolated questions out to people, but you don't seem to be making a real effort to figure anyone out. Ask yourself this: Do you have any concrete suspects? If so, you should either question them further or call them out as scum and explain why. If not, that's a clear sign that you need to scumhunt better, isn't it?
Remember, the point of questions and analysis is to get a read on how someone's thinking. You seem to have the motions of scumhunting down, but appear to not know what to do once your question's been answered.
billybob, your only question is to Bdthemag, who you know isn't here right now. While it's perfectly reasonable to still want an answer from him, maybe you should do something in the meantime also?
Post by: Vector on August 01, 2011, 10:02:44 pm
There's also you. Voting me and giving a little speech about how I've been dumping IC responsibilities on you, after wuba votes you, seems a bit deflectiony.
I got worn out, but that's my responsibility, not yours. Still wish you'd shown up in a bit more force for the early game, but eh, whatever. We've got a good crop of newbies now.
Also, I voted you because I really wanted to make sure of my read on you before proceeding. I still feel that my greatest mistake last game was to play through without ever checking Jim for scumtells or even really thinking about him in seriousness.
I'll still be watching you, but for now Unvote. You sound nothing like the scum self I'm familiar with.
Sorry folks, been busy. I'll re-read the thread and try to post tonight or tommorow.
I really want to see this happening soon, because I'm not feeling good about you at all.
Not on charges of lurking, either.
Unvote Billybob, Vote JC Honestly that question is extremely stupid, and you keep clarifying yourself to explain to us its not in fact stupid. But anyways, if I was scum I wouldn't do that because that is scummy.
But you keep on acting scummy, then later try to explain yourself. So yeah, your probally scum.
This is a third vote on a bandwagon with some of the weakest voting reasons I have ever seen. I don't like it.
Vector I voted JC because he would constantly go "Blah blah blah, your right.", and agree with everyone. To me it seemed like he was trying to not get anyone suspicious, so he just agree's with him.
Inconsistent reasoning.
Well, you can answer them now, then. Next time i just put them apart from commentary.
Also here, was just waiting for Vector to post :/
This... this makes so much sense?
Stop ignoring people's questions. If you don't have time to answer them, then say so. But don't goof around and say "Oh, I was waiting on the lurker! That is why I haven't posted. Questions? What questions!"
There, happy?
And then go on to pull this bullshit.
This little throwaway makes me think that you have no interest whatsoever in actually scumhunting.
You're dead, tonight or tomorrow. If you want to live, start digging your way out of that.
Having a cleared IC would likely prevent timewasters such as jc6036 questioning standard Mafia scumhunting strategy.
It's a waste of time to question strategy, hm?
Easy to denigrate other players as timewasters, as well.
I answered that question. Admittedly, my answer was "I'm not sure, definitely one of those", but it was an answer.
[...]
on a completely unrelated note, i am starting to really dislike the way bay12 plays mafia. it is probably objectively more effective than the ways i do like but urrgh so stressful. >.<
a. You need to know whether you're lynching or pressuring. Right now, it looks like that vote of yours is there just to be there.
Hmm. Not so good. That just means you're voting to be voting, BillyBobFred.
b. Just relax. It gets a lot better.
On the other hand, if you're that stressed it makes me think you're scum. On the other other hand, I already thought you were scum, so no problemo.
My suspicions are BDthemag, Billybobfred, and Flandre.
Post by: Bdthemag on August 01, 2011, 10:22:50 pm
IronyOwl
Wuba: Seems to be playing his average aggresive kind of game, which from the games i've read with him as town (Which is a few, honestly.) im getting a semi-town read on him.
Jc6036: He quickly took his vote off of me, and saying he was satisfied with my answer. Normally this would be fine, but there was no further questioning after that. Im thinking he's scum right now,
or really confused town. Another reason im getting a scum read off him is because he instantly agree's with Wuba on Vector, just because well he's Wuba.
Vector: I dunno, I can't really get a read off of Vector. I assume so far that she is town though.
Billybob: Since he actually questions what im doing, and pushing further questions and not just backing away. Im getting a town read off of him.
Flandre: Nothing yet.
Simple: Seems to be aggresive, which doesn't neccesarley mean he's scum. Im not sure about him though.
You: I never assume the IC is scum until D2 or D3, since a common mistake is lynching the IC early. So im assuming your town so far.
Urist Mcinternetuser: Im getting a scum read on him, voting Jc because he jumped on him for little reason. This may have been buddying, but im not totally sure yet.
Jc: What should I think of Billybob's vote? I mean he's voting for me since he thinks im acting scummy, so I think thats a valid reason to vote. My reason on voting you
is because your acting scummy, duh. Why are you so intent on finding out why people are voting you?
Urist Mcinternetuser: Good question.
Excuse me if I missed any questions, im tired as hell currently.
Post by: jc6036 on August 01, 2011, 10:33:51 pm
Post by: webadict on August 01, 2011, 10:44:08 pm
My suspicions are BDthemag, Billybobfred, and Flandre.Interesting...
Why's that?
Post by: Vector on August 01, 2011, 11:46:19 pm
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 02, 2011, 12:03:24 am
Post by: billybobfred on August 02, 2011, 12:06:27 am
Billybob: Well I thought that was what you were asking about.That's nice to know, but it still doesn't answer the question.
I'm going to spell it out once more.
I asked these questions:
scriver: If you're a cop and (somehow) know the mafia have exactly one power role, would you rather it be godfather or roleblocker?
Twiggie: If you're a roleblocker and (somehow) know the town have exactly one power role, would you rather it be doctor or cop?
Simple: You're a cop. Three people left. An innocent read on both. Therefore, one of them has to be a godfather. One is attacking the other, the other is attacking you. What do?
Your response was:
Those questions are extremely WIFOMy
As such, I wish to know: What about the questions did you see as WIFOMy?
a. You need to know whether you're lynching or pressuring. Right now, it looks like that vote of yours is there just to be there.
Hmm. Not so good. That just means you're voting to be voting, BillyBobFred.
If it helps, it started as a pressure vote. Bd just hasn't answered my one single question for five pages, and I'm not sure when I'm supposed to just call it a lynch vote and be done with it.
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 12:09:54 am
So, is he or isn't he?
How much more scummy do you think he is than everyone else?
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 02, 2011, 12:11:45 am
@bdthemag: Honestly, if you cant define how a person is "acting scummy" then a lynching vote is too much. Unless youre scum, of course. And if you didnt notice, I did ask you some more questions after I took my vote off. I will probably take my vote off of Simple soon, since Im getting a read on him. You are third or second on my suspect list, so my vote may move back to you. I think that my read on you may have been false.
jc you seem, to be moving your votes around a lot. Also, you say to Bd that you "may move your vote back to him", and then you say "I think my read on you may have been false".
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 12:16:20 am
I'd like to know why you're chainsawing BDthemag.
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 02, 2011, 12:50:16 am
He had a town read on him. Now he has a scum read on him.
I'd like to know why you're chainsawing BDthemag.
Is this aimed at me? If so, chainsawing?
Post by: Max White on August 02, 2011, 12:57:12 am
Votecount
Bdthemag[2]: billybobfred, Simple
jc6036[2]: Bdthemag, Urist Mcinternetuser
billybobfred[2]: IronyOwl, Vector
webadict[1]: Flandre
Simple[1]: jc6036
Vector[1]: webadict
The day will end Tuesday, 5:00 PM PST. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
The crier sighs as he lays on he's back in defeat.
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 01:07:24 am
Is this aimed at me? If so, chainsawing?
You're defending him despite an overwhelming amount of evidence and voting his attacker for something as weak as votechanging the first day of a first game.
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 02, 2011, 01:14:35 am
You're defending him despite an overwhelming amount of evidence and voting his attacker for something as weak as votechanging the first day of a first game.
[/quote]
How exactly am I defending Bd? I was simply pointing out that jc has been changing his views around a lot.
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 02:00:00 am
In response to that quote, you vote him.
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 02, 2011, 02:21:07 am
Jc is so shifty, and bdthemag doesn't answer questions.
Post by: webadict on August 02, 2011, 07:18:17 am
Because Twiggie set off my pingers like the dickens in the early game, and Flandre is slick with few posts. Flandre hasn't done anything in particular; he or she is just sitting in my blind spot, which means that I don't have a read, which means that they're suspected.Funny considering your evidence post stated nothing of the sort. You just sort of tacked it on there. Not in the least bit scummy!
Post by: jc6036 on August 02, 2011, 11:36:57 am
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 11:49:29 am
I think they both look scummy.
Jc is so shifty, and bdthemag doesn't answer questions.
What's your read on Flandre?
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 02, 2011, 11:58:35 am
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 11:59:33 am
I think Flandre is probably town.
Why?
Post by: jc6036 on August 02, 2011, 12:03:49 pm
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 12:06:57 pm
Post by: webadict on August 02, 2011, 12:12:22 pm
What's your point? I don't have any real evidence, so there was no attack I could levy in the evidence post.Why would you even BOTHER to bring up Flandre then if you have no reason to suspect him? Clearly you're "suspicious" of something, right? Well, WHAT are you suspicious of? Twiggie? Well, what did Twiggie do? Hmm? You're bringing up someone you think is scum, but then you have no reason to be suspicious of them?I think they both look scummy.
Jc is so shifty, and bdthemag doesn't answer questions.
What's your read on Flandre?
Doesn't make much sense. And I'm still feeling a lack of you "proving" you're Town. You didn't prove anything to me other than you can lurk and then come back to work. I already knew that. I mean, you didn't prove that you WEREN'T using your ICing to activelurk. You didn't come up with satisfactory arguments as to why I should vote who you believe is scum over you. No, I'm thoroughly unconvinced. I would much rather you got lynched.
Post by: jc6036 on August 02, 2011, 12:13:13 pm
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 12:16:00 pm
How was I deflecting? I already explained that changing votes on day 1 isnt scummy. I must have switched between only 3 people any ways.
It seems to me that your just wanting to take me out. You could have voted bdthemag, but you didnt. Perhaps because he is scum as well.
This part. "You could have voted someone else, but you didn't! This is a problem because you are voting me!"
Post by: jc6036 on August 02, 2011, 12:21:55 pm
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 12:22:48 pm
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 12:26:04 pm
I'll write it again in a while.
Post by: Simple on August 02, 2011, 12:35:35 pm
Simple: If you were scum, who would you prefer as a scumbuddy, and why?Aside from IC's (since i would want someone who knows what he's doing on my team) it would be probably you, especially since i have the feeling that there's more meaning behind your responses that i'm noticing and i can't see any straightforward errors in them too. And that's rather good scum trait. Or i'm just paranoid. Could be both.
@bdthemag: Honestly, if you cant define how a person is "acting scummy" then a lynching vote is too much. Unless youre scum, of course. And if you didnt notice, I did ask you some more questions after I took my vote off. I will probably take my vote off of Simple soon, since Im getting a read on him. You are third or second on my suspect list, so my vote may move back to you. I think that my read on you may have been false.Why do you used the 'move back' phrase ? Are you aiming just for him or you're completely clueless ?
@BdtheMag I seem to have more reasons for my distrust of jc than you.
Why you state that Bdthemag is more suspicious and vote jc without any of them posting in between?@bdthemag: Honestly, if you cant define how a person is "acting scummy" then a lynching vote is too much. Unless youre scum, of course. And if you didnt notice, I did ask you some more questions after I took my vote off. I will probably take my vote off of Simple soon, since Im getting a read on him. You are third or second on my suspect list, so my vote may move back to you. I think that my read on you may have been false.
jc you seem, to be moving your votes around a lot. Also, you say to Bd that you "may move your vote back to him", and then you say "I think my read on you may have been false".
More in a moment.
Post by: Reverie on August 02, 2011, 12:39:17 pm
Awwww damn. did I just make a n00b mistake?Even out of context, this early-game reaction sounds like jc thought he might have let something slip that he was not meaning to, and panicked. This is the forum equivalent of covering your mouth with your hand after saying something incriminating, and being new to the game does not justify that.
Jc: I want to hear you justify it.
Post by: jc6036 on August 02, 2011, 12:52:04 pm
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 02, 2011, 01:11:18 pm
So, day 1 ends today, right? Then that means urists vote on me is a lynching vote. Urist, you are voting to lynch me right now, can you give a better case than "He changed his vote a lot on day 1"? It seems to me that your just wanting to take me out. You could have voted bdthemag, but you didnt. Perhaps because he is scum as well.
I'm not just voting for you because of the vote changing, I already told you why I don't trust you. And about the vote changing, my problem with it is not so much about changing your vote but trying to appease everyone.
Also, Flandre just brought something up that I found very about you scummy about you early on.
Something has been bothering me for a while.Awwww damn. did I just make a n00b mistake?Even out of context, this early-game reaction sounds like jc thought he might have let something slip that he was not meaning to, and panicked. This is the forum equivalent of covering your mouth with your hand after saying something incriminating, and being new to the game does not justify that.
Jc: I want to hear you justify it.
@Vector Flandre hasn't really done anything scummy yet.
@Simple I didn't say that I was more suspicious of him than jc, I said that I actually had reasons for voting jc, because he (BdtheMag) had just said that I was scummy for voting jc, meanwhile he was voting jc for no particularly good reasons.
Post by: Reverie on August 02, 2011, 01:18:39 pm
@Flandre: It was the equivalent of a teacher stopping class and saying "now every body tell me what he just did wrong". So I asked if I made a Noob mistake. Not good justification, really, but its what I got.It was not the 'Did I make a n00b mistake?' so much as the 'Awww, damn.' I know what Vector meant by her post, and what you attempted to convey to her with yours, but I cannot shake the feeling that there is something you are not telling us.
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 01:22:49 pm
Post by: jc6036 on August 02, 2011, 01:26:20 pm
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 02, 2011, 02:03:17 pm
Post by: Simple on August 02, 2011, 02:40:44 pm
Flandre:Your read on vector ? How would you try to deal bandwagon targeted at you ?
@Simple I didn't say that I was more suspicious of him than jc, I said that I actually had reasons for voting jc, because he (BdtheMag) had just said that I was scummy for voting jc, meanwhile he was voting jc for no particularly good reasons.There's no answer for my question here. You only admit that you like jumping on bandwagons here. So maybe i ask another question to make it easier : what you find suspicious about bdthemag ?
@Vector No, my default is neutral, Flandre just seems kind of townish.But you have no reason to think so ? Or there is something ?
Post by: webadict on August 02, 2011, 02:49:41 pm
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 02, 2011, 03:35:23 pm
There's also you. Voting me and giving a little speech about how I've been dumping IC responsibilities on you, after wuba votes you, seems a bit deflectiony.
I got worn out, but that's my responsibility, not yours. Still wish you'd shown up in a bit more force for the early game, but eh, whatever. We've got a good crop of newbies now.
Also, I voted you because I really wanted to make sure of my read on you before proceeding. I still feel that my greatest mistake last game was to play through without ever checking Jim for scumtells or even really thinking about him in seriousness.
I'll still be watching you, but for now Unvote. You sound nothing like the scum self I'm familiar with.Sorry folks, been busy. I'll re-read the thread and try to post tonight or tommorow.
I really want to see this happening soon, because I'm not feeling good about you at all.
Not on charges of lurking, either.Unvote Billybob, Vote JC Honestly that question is extremely stupid, and you keep clarifying yourself to explain to us its not in fact stupid. But anyways, if I was scum I wouldn't do that because that is scummy.
But you keep on acting scummy, then later try to explain yourself. So yeah, your probally scum.
This is a third vote on a bandwagon with some of the weakest voting reasons I have ever seen. I don't like it.Vector I voted JC because he would constantly go "Blah blah blah, your right.", and agree with everyone. To me it seemed like he was trying to not get anyone suspicious, so he just agree's with him.
Inconsistent reasoning.Well, you can answer them now, then. Next time i just put them apart from commentary.Also here, was just waiting for Vector to post :/
This... this makes so much sense?
Stop ignoring people's questions. If you don't have time to answer them, then say so. But don't goof around and say "Oh, I was waiting on the lurker! That is why I haven't posted. Questions? What questions!"There, happy?
And then go on to pull this bullshit.
This little throwaway makes me think that you have no interest whatsoever in actually scumhunting.
You're dead, tonight or tomorrow. If you want to live, start digging your way out of that.Having a cleared IC would likely prevent timewasters such as jc6036 questioning standard Mafia scumhunting strategy.
It's a waste of time to question strategy, hm?
Easy to denigrate other players as timewasters, as well.I answered that question. Admittedly, my answer was "I'm not sure, definitely one of those", but it was an answer.
[...]
on a completely unrelated note, i am starting to really dislike the way bay12 plays mafia. it is probably objectively more effective than the ways i do like but urrgh so stressful. >.<
a. You need to know whether you're lynching or pressuring. Right now, it looks like that vote of yours is there just to be there.
Hmm. Not so good. That just means you're voting to be voting, BillyBobFred.
b. Just relax. It gets a lot better.
On the other hand, if you're that stressed it makes me think you're scum. On the other other hand, I already thought you were scum, so no problemo.
My suspicions are BDthemag, Billybobfred, and Flandre.
Mostly because as Vector kinda pointed out here, he's defensive overly agressive, and lurks a lot.
Post by: Reverie on August 02, 2011, 03:46:10 pm
Flandre:Your read on vector ? How would you try to deal bandwagon targeted at you ?Vector is hard to read due to her experience, but her aggressive, matter-of-fact playstyle hints that she is town.
To answer your other question, I would not to be bothered so much if someone were to found a Flandre-haters' club and recruit several members. There would be no benefit in getting angry, or nervous about it if all I needed to do to defend myself was to speak truthfully. One of the mafia would naturally want to hop aboard, so the situation could even be to my advantage and to the benefit of the town if I were to challenge my attackers.
Post by: Reverie on August 02, 2011, 03:58:32 pm
Vector: What is your read on Webadict?
Simple/Urist: Who are the three players you would like to see lynched?
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 02, 2011, 04:17:38 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 02, 2011, 04:21:19 pm
Post by: webadict on August 02, 2011, 04:30:40 pm
Vector is hard to read due to her experience, but her aggressive, matter-of-fact playstyle hints that she is town.Except that she's only started being aggressive and matter-of-factly once called out by me. Would you consider her old play to be as aggressive?
To answer your other question, I would not to be bothered so much if someone were to found a Flandre-haters' club and recruit several members. There would be no benefit in getting angry, or nervous about it if all I needed to do to defend myself was to speak truthfully. One of the mafia would naturally want to hop aboard, so the situation could even be to my advantage and to the benefit of the town if I were to challenge my attackers.Why only one of the mafia? Why not both? Why would you assume the mafia would bother themselves with bandwagoning when they KNOW that bandwagoning is a scumtell and would therefore avoid it?
Post by: webadict on August 02, 2011, 04:31:13 pm
Post by: Simple on August 02, 2011, 04:35:25 pm
-snip-You just quoted whole vector post, just to say : "this" ? ...
Simple/Urist: Who are the three players you would like to see lynched?Right now from most lynch worthy to least : bdthemag,urist,vector.
And yeah votecount could be useful.
Post by: Reverie on August 02, 2011, 04:57:38 pm
Vector is hard to read due to her experience, but her aggressive, matter-of-fact playstyle hints that she is town.Except that she's only started being aggressive and matter-of-factly once called out by me. Would you consider her old play to be as aggressive?To answer your other question, I would not to be bothered so much if someone were to found a Flandre-haters' club and recruit several members. There would be no benefit in getting angry, or nervous about it if all I needed to do to defend myself was to speak truthfully. One of the mafia would naturally want to hop aboard, so the situation could even be to my advantage and to the benefit of the town if I were to challenge my attackers.Why only one of the mafia? Why not both? Why would you assume the mafia would bother themselves with bandwagoning when they KNOW that bandwagoning is a scumtell and would therefore avoid it?
Vector has become more aggressive since you have joined, but I am not sure if those two events are related such as you think.
I'm here. Sorry for all the crap. My life sort of shook itself up.From what I have gathered, this was where she became aggressive.
I'm not scum, by the way, and from now on I intend to prove it. Don't copy me, guys. I've been playing dreadfully.
Rereading now.
And yes, both or none of the mafia might join the Flandre-haters' club instead of just the one. I like to think my chances of catching scum increases if one were to attack me, but that is just an assumption.
No vote.
Post by: Think0028 on August 02, 2011, 05:00:20 pm
Votecount
Bdthemag[2]: billybobfred, Simple
jc6036[2]: Bdthemag, Urist Mcinternetuser
billybobfred[2]: IronyOwl, Vector
Vector[1]: webadict
Not Voting: Flandre, jc6036
The day will end in 2 1/2 hours. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Post by: Think0028 on August 02, 2011, 05:02:39 pm
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 02, 2011, 05:28:14 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 02, 2011, 05:34:39 pm
And yes, both or none of the mafia might join the Flandre-haters' club instead of just the one. I like to think my chances of catching scum increases ifI meant several people, as in a bandwagon.onewere to attack me, but that is just an assumption.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 02, 2011, 05:54:22 pm
Every vote is now a lynch vote. I want full cases from EVERYONE on why such and such has your vote.
This includes anyone who might not be voting, as they'd best have a reason for leaving the decision up to everyone else.
Urist, try to trim irrelevant parts from quotes in the future. Also, why did you quote Vector at all? Was she the one who convinced you Bd was scummy?
billybob, you're still focusing exclusively on Bdthemag. While it's true that he isn't answering your question, it's also true that you're not scumhunting anyone except him. What are your reads on everyone in the game?
Post by: webadict on August 02, 2011, 06:25:07 pm
Bdthemag. I don't want to lynch you, but you're "scummiest" and no ties by me.
Post by: webadict on August 02, 2011, 06:25:25 pm
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 02, 2011, 06:33:29 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on August 02, 2011, 06:44:41 pm
Jc if you think your read was wrong, then why aren't you questioning me to get a better read?
Vector I don't purposely miss out on questions, trust me. Its mainly that I sometimes speed read through some of the more wall of text questions, and may miss something.
Urist Yes, I sometimes procrastinate the whole posting in the game, but lurking isn't neccesarley a mafia tell. What you call my "Overly defensive aggresive", is how I compensate for my terrible scumhunting. I still need to work on asking questions and whatnot.
To clarify why I have my vote on JC. First of, he say's he has a read on me and takes his vote off. And then when more people start voting me he goes, "Oh wait wrong read." which to me would be an excuse for bandwagoning if he actually does vote me. He used the whole noob mistake excuse early in the game, up until people started getting suspicious of him because of that.
Post by: Think0028 on August 02, 2011, 06:50:01 pm
Post by: jc6036 on August 02, 2011, 06:53:15 pm
Post by: webadict on August 02, 2011, 06:54:58 pm
Bdthemag, I said my read may have been wrong. Im not sure of any thing at this point, So I wasnt going to vote anybody. You, urist, and billybobfred seem the scummiest to me, but im not 100% sure your scum. Id rather be sure of scum when lynching than lynching a townie that just looked a little suspicious. Notice that Im not on the bandwagon right now. I could hop on with the case that you never answer questions well, sit on votes, barely ask any questions, and lurk, but I just dont think thats worthy of a lynch. Also, is the day extended yet? I think I saw 3 votes.Shoulda voted you instead.
Vector.
Post by: Reverie on August 02, 2011, 07:32:52 pm
Wuba, what about this post changed your mind?Bdthemag, I said my read may have been wrong. Im not sure of any thing at this point, So I wasnt going to vote anybody. You, urist, and billybobfred seem the scummiest to me, but im not 100% sure your scum. Id rather be sure of scum when lynching than lynching a townie that just looked a little suspicious. Notice that Im not on the bandwagon right now. I could hop on with the case that you never answer questions well, sit on votes, barely ask any questions, and lurk, but I just dont think thats worthy of a lynch. Also, is the day extended yet? I think I saw 3 votes.Shoulda voted you instead.
Vector.
Post by: jc6036 on August 02, 2011, 07:36:31 pm
Post by: webadict on August 02, 2011, 07:54:55 pm
I don't even think you know what you're asking anymore.Wuba, what about this post changed your mind?Bdthemag, I said my read may have been wrong. Im not sure of any thing at this point, So I wasnt going to vote anybody. You, urist, and billybobfred seem the scummiest to me, but im not 100% sure your scum. Id rather be sure of scum when lynching than lynching a townie that just looked a little suspicious. Notice that Im not on the bandwagon right now. I could hop on with the case that you never answer questions well, sit on votes, barely ask any questions, and lurk, but I just dont think thats worthy of a lynch. Also, is the day extended yet? I think I saw 3 votes.Shoulda voted you instead.
Vector.
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 08:59:48 pm
@Vector No, my default is neutral, Flandre just seems kind of townish.
Uh-huh. So you can't explain why at all, but Flandre is town?
Why would you even BOTHER to bring up Flandre then if you have no reason to suspect him? Clearly you're "suspicious" of something, right? Well, WHAT are you suspicious of? Twiggie? Well, what did Twiggie do? Hmm? You're bringing up someone you think is scum, but then you have no reason to be suspicious of them?
Doesn't make much sense. And I'm still feeling a lack of you "proving" you're Town. You didn't prove anything to me other than you can lurk and then come back to work. I already knew that. I mean, you didn't prove that you WEREN'T using your ICing to activelurk. You didn't come up with satisfactory arguments as to why I should vote who you believe is scum over you. No, I'm thoroughly unconvinced. I would much rather you got lynched.
I don't have a read on Flandre yet. Therefore, I suspect Flandre. There is a very good reason why that list is labeled "suspicions" rather than "scum picks."
As for Twiggie:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I didn't like the way that looked at all. Of course, Twiggie disappeared pretty much directly afterwards, so there's not enough to make a case on. Just a tickle in the back of the head to serve as a reminder that there's something to worry about.
I have no specific reasons to find Flandre suspicious, which is why I did not levy evidence against him.
There's obviously no way that I can "prove" that I wasn't active-lurking in order to evade actually playing. On the other hand, I'll add that there was a clear demonstration from XXIV that I needed to do something to change my style, and that if I was going to spend time focusing my energies on teaching, poking, and prodding, it'd be better to do that sooner rather than later. I employed a very similar playstyle to the current one in the original version of XXV, where I was town.
I am not trying to convince you to vote the person I'm voting for the simple expedient that I don't know if he or she is scum yet.
Vector:Three people you would like to see lynched right now ?
I don't have anyone picked for lynch yet.
The closest estimate I've got would be BDthemag, BDthemag, and BDthemag.
Vector: What is your read on Webadict?
Webadict is hard to read. I'll know more in a little while.
Tentatively, town. Of course, I always think he's town, which is one of the reasons why I'm being cautious. It helps, though, that I was getting good feelings from UltraValican.
Vector I don't purposely miss out on questions, trust me. Its mainly that I sometimes speed read through some of the more wall of text questions, and may miss something.
I believe that there was a lot more than this short little issue in my post.
I would suggest that you reread it and address the claims therein.
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 02, 2011, 09:37:24 pm
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 09:42:06 pm
Okay.
You need to talk more, because I need more read on you and I keep on forgetting you exist.
Post by: webadict on August 02, 2011, 10:18:27 pm
As for Twiggie:While I agree Twiggie is suspicious, I feel you have done nothing to determine whether you truly believe Flandre to be scum. And I suspect even more that if I look back, you will have done nothing to determine if Twiggie is scum. Nor will you have dropped any hint of suspicion until just a bit ago.Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I didn't like the way that looked at all. Of course, Twiggie disappeared pretty much directly afterwards, so there's not enough to make a case on. Just a tickle in the back of the head to serve as a reminder that there's something to worry about.
I have no specific reasons to find Flandre suspicious, which is why I did not levy evidence against him.
There's obviously no way that I can "prove" that I wasn't active-lurking in order to evade actually playing. On the other hand, I'll add that there was a clear demonstration from XXIV that I needed to do something to change my style, and that if I was going to spend time focusing my energies on teaching, poking, and prodding, it'd be better to do that sooner rather than later. I employed a very similar playstyle to the current one in the original version of XXV, where I was town.
I am not trying to convince you to vote the person I'm voting for the simple expedient that I don't know if he or she is scum yet.
Let's find out, shall we?
Well, what do you know? You don't find Twiggie scummy then. In fact, you make passive attacks at him, but then completely drop them when he answers your question. Look specifically at this post, where you make a passive attack while also using an appeal to authority:
no, it was actually more of a condescending thing, though i hate to admit it
Don't be condescending to the ICs. I don't know about IronyOwl, but I know that I personally only have so much temper, and it runs out a lot faster with needless provocation.
...Jc6036 I honestly doubt that using smilies will make him seem more like town.
This is actually a theory Webadict employs. Someone who uses more smilies than they usually do in a game is probably scum.
He's been caught by people applying it to him, too. So think through the theory a bit harder, hey?
I'll also add that this looks like you're buddying with Twiggie.
Don't do that.
The worst you tell him is that he shouldn't be condescending to ICs. I honestly believe that the scumteam is you and Twiggie/Flandre. Why? Well, combining the fact that I believe you are 100% scum, you refused to attack Twiggie at that point, but brought up the suspicion later with no reason or anything. You also listed Flandre LAST on your suspicions. That's more likely to be your scumpartner.
It also makes sense in a meta-argument as to why you never answered as to if I should join: You hate playing against me when I'm on the other team. You were attempting to please me when I targeted you first. Just look at the post:
Fair enough. Can you explain your reasoning on BDthemag? I agree with you on JC at this point, but I don't have any read on the other dude.You're clearly NOT defending yourself. You're NOT being aggressive. You're saying, "Okay, how can I get you off of my trail?"
It'd also be cool to have a question or something with that vote, but I'll admit that I'm actually so happy at this point to have someone engaging me that I don't really care ;_;
By the way, the only reason I targeted you first was because you were using your ICing as a cover to activelurk. I know you can't prove against it, which is why it is now confirmed by YOU that you weren't as active as you should have been. Can't blame you there, but it makes you scummy regardless.
Am I getting anywhere close?
Twiggie seemed like the perfect candidate for the other scum, as well. I was just waiting to see if you'd vote someone and then FoS Flandre for m with no reasoning or if I'd just use your complete lack of accusations or looking as evidence instead. Thankfully it was the first.
Now, why not the others? Well, I slowly narrowed down the list of suspects to
scriver -> kilakan -> Urist Mcinternetuser
Twiggie -> Flandre
Vector
I am still unsure as to whether it is Urist or Flandre, but if I had to shoot scum or lose, I'd shoot you in a heartbeat. No question anymore. You've just done too many scummy things for me to believe you aren't scum.
Post by: Vector on August 02, 2011, 11:29:17 pm
No, I have not done anything to really, truly figure out if Flandre is scum. I did not attempt to flatten Twiggie when I thought that IronyOwl was doing a good enough job "reeducating" him on his issues, and then he was gone. For days. And I didn't notice, because that's kind of what happens with lurkers. So I didn't question him, thinking they were newbie mistakes and he'd spend a little while flailing, and then soon enough get over it. I'm sitting there, focusing on trying not to pop newbies like balloons because the really crucial thing is that newbies learn how to play, not that I win the game--and the more newbies I pop, the worse I'm doing at that.
There were a lot of people I didn't attack directly other than Twiggie. Flandre was at the end of a list as an afterthought who hadn't directly done anything scummy, but who I had suddenly realized I was ignoring because he was playing so prettily. And because I liked him. Right in my blindspot, just like Jim Groovester was for XXIV. It's called a blindspot for a reason. You don't realize it's there immediately, and when you see it, you don't want to believe it actually exists.
Anyway, I realized I didn't know what I was doing with him and am in the process of figuring that out. Also hunting around for scum in the pool of people I actually understand.
Webadict, I don't know which team you're on. I didn't respond when you asked if you should join because I wasn't even playing the game at that point. I didn't care. I was bored out of my skull from the lack of engagement and barely even reading the posts. Frankly, I don't have problems with town-you, no matter which team I'm on. It's scum-you I worry about, because I can't ever read you and tend to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I was happy to see someone who was going to make this game interesting for me, rather than a pedagogical hellhole. Thanks for doing so. My relief does not mean that my chief interest is to please you.
Yes. I was thinking "how do I get Webadict off my tail." This is what I think every single time you vote me for "no reason", regardless of alignment. "All right, what is it this time?" Furthermore, when I state your line of reasoning and attack, you always say "no, that's not it, you scumball" and press me harder, trying to get something else out. So I can't dismantle the attack. I have to put up a show of being shocked and confused by the vote, because no townie would possibly get USED to Webadict voting them again and again and again for what appears to be absolutely no reason and go "Oh, this again. He's voting me for no reason to get a raw reaction to being voted, let's move on, no need to make a big fuss out of it." But I can't get too excited, either, because then I'm jumping over your vote that actually didn't make me feel a finger of emotion in the first place. And I can't say "that's bullshit and you know it," because then you counter with "No, you're scum and I'm going to lynch you." And I can't say "fuck this noise and your stupid worn-out tactic," because that's deflection.
So that wasn't the right way to go. Whatever--I'm sure that NEXT time this happens, I'll figure something new and exciting out. Just keep your eyes peeled. Like grapes. Or lemons.
And no, you're nowhere close, asshole. I'm vanilla town, no scumpartner, yadda fucking yadda. You're grasping at straws to make a stupid "case" bigger and more stupid. I still think you're town-hunting and giving me shit because you know I'd be useful. Pretty much every single post you've made has made me think that your heart wasn't really in it.
On the other hand, I say that and you're categorically forced to deny it. Skip that step and keep on rolling. I'll still be here.
Post by: webadict on August 02, 2011, 11:54:25 pm
Well, my problem with you saying you find Flandre suspicious is that you're doing nothing about it. You've got some interest poured into Bd or billy or whoever it is this time, but you can't just SAY you find Flandre suspicious and then not figure out if you think he's scum. That's a terrible way to play! Are you expecting that he'll suddenly collapse under your pressure of not even giving reasons that he'll confess for you?
It's a really passive move and a pretty lazy one to boot. But, hey, at least you've started posting! That's one step in the right direction.
Oh, but yeah, I'm still going to keep voting you. Because, honestly, even with your newfound aggression and playing, you still are actually scummier than anyone else. But, at least this time, no one else will likely vote you, so I'll have to try harder, won't I?
Maybe I'll look at Urist some more.
Post by: Vector on August 03, 2011, 12:04:44 am
I am not expecting him to collapse under nonextant pressure. I am expecting to spend a little time thinking and then a lot of time acting. Someone asks me for my list, I give them my list. Doesn't mean I can get to everything on the list right away.
I don't give a fuck if you keep on voting me, jerkface. I have a bucket of German homework to do right now. Maybe I'll have time to work up a case (or a fuck) tomorrow morning, when it'll be time for the daily scheduled mafia stuff.
I'll keep poking in as I work, but I honestly haven't had time for the detailed reading today.
Post by: billybobfred on August 03, 2011, 02:35:59 am
Bdthemag, I said my read may have been wrong. Im not sure of any thing at this point, So I wasnt going to vote anybody. You, urist, and billybobfred seem the scummiest to me, but im not 100% sure your scum. Id rather be sure of scum when lynching than lynching a townie that just looked a little suspicious. Notice that Im not on the bandwagon right now. I could hop on with the case that you never answer questions well, sit on votes, barely ask any questions, and lurk, but I just dont think thats worthy of a lynch. Also, is the day extended yet? I think I saw 3 votes.Shoulda voted you instead.
Vector.
I'm in the middle of building a readwall, but I can't just leave this alone until it's done. (On that note, unvote until the wall is complete.)
So, uh, what is this? Am I reading it right? I ask that because it looks like you expressed a desire to vote jc, and then immediately voted Vector, who, you might notice, isn't jc.
What am I missing?
Post by: billybobfred on August 03, 2011, 04:15:21 am
billybob, you're still focusing exclusively on Bdthemag. While it's true that he isn't answering your question, it's also true that you're not scumhunting anyone except him. What are your reads on everyone in the game?
scriver -> kilakan -> Urist Mcinternetuser
First answer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2461594#msg2461594) was literally a joke. Doesn't seem to get (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2464319#msg2464319) the vote part of RVS. Scriver gets replaced with kilakan, who jumps on jc (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2468605#msg2468605) like a colorful metaphor. JC responds poorly, which he is not willing to allow (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2468849#msg2468849). Another dodge from jc, another push (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2471424#msg2471424). JC finally comes up with an answer, nad kilakan is 0kay with that (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2474563#msg2474563). Seems convinced that jc is noobtown over scum. Kilakan gets replaced, after quite a delay, with Urist Mcinternetuser, who jumps back on jc (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2485124#msg2485124). The explanation comes later (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2485240#msg2485240). Is apparently perfectly 0kay (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2486665#msg2486665) with lynching jc based solely on what has happened before replacing in. But then unvotes (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2488828#msg2488828), apparently solely because IronyOwl told him to. Then back on jc (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2496349#msg2496349). Mentions an actual decent reason to vote jc (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2497610#msg2497610), but only after Flandre brings it up first. Ugh, this post. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2497980#msg2497980) Literally 95% quote. How could anyone think quoting that monster of a post and adding one sentence is a good idea in any context?
End result: Bluhhhhh, it's hard to read someone who's been replaced twice. Leaning towards scum, though.
Twiggie -> Flandre
Starts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2461407#msg2461407) with a joke vote. Gets dodgy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462144#msg2462144) when asked about the scum IC. Side-eyes jc (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462336#msg2462336) after the latter votes for him with poor reasoning. (Poor reasoning that isn't even in the vote post, I might add.) Twiggie then vanishes, to eventually be replaced by Flandre. First thing Flandre does is side-eye Urist (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2486834#msg2486834) for jumping on jc immediately on joining, and is kind enough to clearly explain (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2488943#msg2488943) why it's suspicious. Eventually drops the issue (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2494890#msg2494890), though not without explanation. Brings up (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2497515#msg2497515) a very telling mistake jc made.
End result: Twiggie is scum, Flandre is town. Yes, I know that doesn't make sense, I'm still trying to figure it out myself. Considering that Twiggie quit, I see Flandre as more likely playing the true role. I think.
Simple
Starts (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2461466#msg2461466) by poking scriver. Keeps pressing. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462277#msg2462277) Turns around and pushes Bd (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462346#msg2462346). With about a dozen questions in one post. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2465264#msg2465264) Big ol wall of responses (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2473891#msg2473891).
End result: Ugh. I know this is just me, but I find it really difficult to get a good read off of long posts made sparsely. Leaning town, though.
Bdthemag
Starts off (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462239#msg2462239) voting Twiggie for dodginess (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462144#msg2462144). Answers jc's question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462333#msg2462333) in a rather... ugh, words fail me, but I don't like it. Then we come to... this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462397#msg2462397). He informs me that my questions are WIFOM-y. He still hasn't told me why, by the way. But let's move past that. He gives reasons (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462457#msg2462457) for disliking my questions... and calls Simple's quesions WIFOM-y as well. He explains what WIFOM is (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462948#msg2462948) for me. Even though I had clearly demonstrated (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462437#msg2462437) that I already knew the meaning of WIFOM. Dropped the argument (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2465128#msg2465128) without a word, though that may have simply been because jc looked like a bigger fish to fry. When I pushed him, he repeated what he had already said (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2472114#msg2472114). You know, the answer I was fine with to the question I no longer cared about. "Oops I maed a mistake sry lol" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2472135#msg2472135)... and the mistake he made is still irrelevant to my question. When I realized this and re-asked the question, his response is "i answered the wrong question" (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2496123#msg2496123) without bothering to address the right one. So, just to be extra-safe, I spelled out the question as clearly as I could. His next post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2498603#msg2498603) completely ignored the question.
End result: Before I thought of him as slightly scummy, incredibly aggravating. With a reread, he's very scummy and very aggravating.
jc6036
Starts off pretty passive. His first real action is a bit derpy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462004#msg2462004), as he interprets an RV in RVS as scummy. To his credit, he does stick to Twiggie (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462210#msg2462210) instead of, say, flailing wildly or immediately backtracking. Invokes the Noob Shield. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462652#msg2462652) Gives this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462721#msg2462721) wishy-washy response to me, though it's kind of expected since I literally just said "If I was scum I would act just like town". Doesn't seem to get (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2464327#msg2464327) the idea of a "pressure vote". Or pressure, for that matter. Gives the most obvious answer (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2464332#msg2464332) to UV's question. Invokes the noob shield again (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2464497#msg2464497), though less bluntly. As Flandre pointed out, this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2464541#msg2464541), while by no means solid, is very suspicious. Still doesn't get scumhunting. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2465355#msg2465355) Considers giving up. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2468809#msg2468809) Dodges kilakan's question (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2469062#msg2469062) with an incomprehensible reason. Gratuitously mentions newbhood again. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2482929#msg2482929) Though I'm not sure that one counts as invoking the noob shield. Is 0kay (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2488569#msg2488569) with being voted if the voters have good reasons, which just seems off. Officially lowers the Noob Shield (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2489006#msg2489006). That's not something that I can get a read off, I'm just noting it for the record. Fails (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2497409#msg2497409) at defending against Urist. Wait no (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2497464#msg2497464), that's a valid defense, he just failed at getting the point across, so it looked like a fail!defense. Seems to require (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2498631#msg2498631) certainty in his lynch votes, which is of course not possible.
End result: Big flashing neon sign screaming "NOOB" kinda makes it hard to read anything else. I can't say one way or the other.
Vector
As an IC, starts off... IC-ing, I guess would be the verb. I don't get this. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462314#msg2462314) This explanation (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462853#msg2462853) is... inadequate. Explains pressure votes (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2464364#msg2464364). Up until page 7, she does very little scumhunting. Apparently school is to blame for that, but it didn't stop her from ICing, did it? But on page 7... Bam, wall of quotes. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2496059#msg2496059) Now, this is well after webadict joined and got on her case for not scumhunting. It'd be more conclusive if it had been before, but I'm still inclined to believe that the change in playstyle was not webadict's doing.
End result: All that activelurking... Only a few good posts to make up for it... I'm leaning scum, but I'm really unsure about it.
IronyOwl
Starts by pushing Twiggie. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462155#msg2462155). Apparently it was a scumhunting demonstration (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462287#msg2462287), though I can't imagine that makes it less... scumhunty? i guess? After that, made very few posts until page 5, and those posts he did make were more as an IC than a player. Gets back in the game (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2483153#msg2483153) with a wall of questions. Still didn't post much, but more than he had been.
End result: Not a lot to go off. I pretty much can't tell.
UltraValican -> webadict
UV, not an IC, starts the game without a vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462553#msg2462553), which gets him chewed out by Vector. The obvious response to that is to drop a pressure vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2464560#msg2464560). Shortly thereafter, he decides that Bd needs the pressure more than jc (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2471459#msg2471459). And then he drops out, to be replaced by webadict, who is an IC. Webadict jumps on Vector (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2482658#msg2482658) for IC-activelurking. Pick pick picks, showing zero mercy. Explains (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2487346#msg2487346) how jc's cluelessness implies that he's town. Makes a very bold proclamation (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2493752#msg2493752), stating with certainty that Vector is scum. I still don't know what this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2498634#msg2498634) is, but I've already asked about it, so.
End result: All I can read off this is "Thinks Vector is scum and jc is town" </obvious>. Can't really determine alignment from that. Oh well.
Ultimate Final Result (for now): Huh. I stayed up til 4 in the morning writing this and I'm just going straight back to bdthemag. Only this time, it's a lynch vote.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 03, 2011, 07:08:30 am
Unvote billybob. You should continue hunting, however, despite already knowing who you'd like dead.
Bdthemag, I really don't want to lynch you, but I do want to know why you thought billybob's earlier questions were WIFOM. As far as I can tell, you never did actually explain that.
@IronyOwl Sorry, I should have trimmed it. It wasn't just her, bd's always been overly defensive, and his defense doesn't always seem to make sense. If it comes down to a tie, I'll vote him, but I also think jc should be lynched.Could you explain in your own words, using quotes if possible? Why'd you quote Vector rather than explain it yourself?
Bdthemag, I said my read may have been wrong. Im not sure of any thing at this point, So I wasnt going to vote anybody.The way you solve this is by scumhunting. You don't seem to be doing that right now. Start doing that right now.
You, urist, and billybobfred seem the scummiest to me, but im not 100% sure your scum.See, you've even got a list of suspects, but you're not questioning them. There's really no reason not to question your top suspects when you think they're scum but aren't certain.
Id rather be sure of scum when lynching than lynching a townie that just looked a little suspicious. Notice that Im not on the bandwagon right now. I could hop on with the case that you never answer questions well, sit on votes, barely ask any questions, and lurk, but I just dont think thats worthy of a lynch. Also, is the day extended yet? I think I saw 3 votes.Problem: Someone's going to get lynched today. Not voting because what they've done isn't lynchworthy doesn't really work if you're not doing anything to confirm whether or not they're actually lynchworthy. It just ends up with someone getting lynched without your vote.
Vector, uh... it's a bit disconcerting to hear you admit to trying to play webadict in just the right manner to shake him. Could you elaborate on that?
Post by: webadict on August 03, 2011, 07:48:20 am
Dude, I realized I needed to pay attention to Flandre yesterday night, soon before going to bed. I woke up, posted briefly, and then spent hours off at school and otherwise taking care of shit that needed doing. I have not had time to think through everything. I have not even had time to reread his posts and look for a thread to pull on.Honestly, now you're just being angry.
I am not expecting him to collapse under nonextant pressure. I am expecting to spend a little time thinking and then a lot of time acting. Someone asks me for my list, I give them my list. Doesn't mean I can get to everything on the list right away.
I don't give a fuck if you keep on voting me, jerkface. I have a bucket of German homework to do right now. Maybe I'll have time to work up a case (or a fuck) tomorrow morning, when it'll be time for the daily scheduled mafia stuff.
I'll keep poking in as I work, but I honestly haven't had time for the detailed reading today.
Look, I was expecting someone who claims to have been able to see both beginner scum in a game to have been able to correctly identify scummy people. I just don't see that. I see you going after minor things. You and I both know that this game is far beyond scumtells and whatever people want to believe it is. You play the person, not the character. I am no penguin in real life, but I do know when something is fishy. You're going after billybobfred because...? What is your expert opinion on why he is scum, and tell me why, with all factors, that would be true?
You're clearly missing too many things. I don't believe you're making a note about every little thing. That might be good.Bdthemag, I said my read may have been wrong. Im not sure of any thing at this point, So I wasnt going to vote anybody. You, urist, and billybobfred seem the scummiest to me, but im not 100% sure your scum. Id rather be sure of scum when lynching than lynching a townie that just looked a little suspicious. Notice that Im not on the bandwagon right now. I could hop on with the case that you never answer questions well, sit on votes, barely ask any questions, and lurk, but I just dont think thats worthy of a lynch. Also, is the day extended yet? I think I saw 3 votes.Shoulda voted you instead.
Vector.
I'm in the middle of building a readwall, but I can't just leave this alone until it's done. (On that note, unvote until the wall is complete.)
So, uh, what is this? Am I reading it right? I ask that because it looks like you expressed a desire to vote jc, and then immediately voted Vector, who, you might notice, isn't jc.
What am I missing?
I was voting Bdthemag for a lynch, since ties are bad. Then when we got an extension, jc posted that. I figured I should've lynched him instead of Bd. However, I was instead moving my vote back to its rightful position.
Post by: jc6036 on August 03, 2011, 01:07:22 pm
@bdthemag, You pop in about once or twice a day, and even when you do the post has terrible questions and answers. Whats keeping you from posting? Who is on your suspicion list?
Post by: Reverie on August 03, 2011, 02:00:17 pm
However, I do have the time to point out that I strongly disagree with the way Twiggie had played. I cannot blame Vector for thinking him suspicious, nor anyone else who feels likewise. I do not expect any of you to take me on my word when I say that I am town, but my alignment was his, and I say that he was a tactless fool. No offence intended, Twiggie.
Post by: Bdthemag on August 03, 2011, 02:23:26 pm
IronyOwl: I thought that since he was asking about night actions, then that would mean those questions were WIFOM. Being the idiot that I am, I decided to use that to push Billybob and try to get a read off of him.
Billybob: Finally, someone votes me and has actual reasoning behind the vote, I applaud you.
Post by: jc6036 on August 03, 2011, 02:28:05 pm
Bdthemag, its hard to think of questions to ask when you lurk all of the time. But anyways, whats your favored strategy to use when you are scum?
Post by: Bdthemag on August 03, 2011, 02:31:20 pm
Post by: jc6036 on August 03, 2011, 02:34:51 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on August 03, 2011, 02:37:43 pm
Post by: jc6036 on August 03, 2011, 05:07:57 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on August 03, 2011, 05:12:39 pm
Post by: jc6036 on August 03, 2011, 05:18:13 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 03, 2011, 06:23:07 pm
Vector:I simply cannot be in your blindspot if you focus a question at me. If it helps you to get a read on me, I would be happy to offer my defense whenever you are ready to start interrogating.
Wuba:
scriver -> kilakan -> Urist McinternetuserI am not attacking your reasoning on any of these individual verdicts (I figure you know what you are doing through experience), but collectively, the chance of something being wrong somewhere is much more likely. None of what I have made bold I find to be especially conclusive, and are the weaker points that I think could be expounded upon to make them believable for the rest of us.billybobfred- Is being far too stupid to be listening to another IC.
Twiggie -> FlandreSimple- He doesn't seem off to me.Bdthemag- While I dislike his lurkiness, I don't want to lynch him today.jc6036- Too stupid to be scum.
VectorIronyOwl- While I had reasons to believe one of the ICs were scum, I feel like IronyOwl is less likely to be scum than you. He was also able to use basic logic to determine my line of reasoning without my help. Which means if I was going to lynch someone, it's not going to be him, since he is able to think for himself.
Billybobfred: I do not recall ever interrogating you, so I will make a request. Similarly to those entries you have given for everyone above, I want you to give yourself an objective self-evaluation and add yourself to the wall, end result and all.
Bdthemag:
Jc: Excuse me for my "terrible questions", this is a beginners game after all.How many games have you been a part of before you joined this one? It had to be several games, if you have gained notoriety as a lurker.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 03, 2011, 07:05:21 pm
Yes, I know I have to get back into the scumhunt, but Im having a hard time thinking up any questions that arent, as bdthemag and wuba likes to put it, stupid.Well, think about who you want to examine, then ask them questions you think might prove insightful. If you go back through the thread, possibly using the lurkertracker, there'll probably be numerous things that seem odd or interesting. If you ask about them, you might learn more.
Remember, you're trying to get a feel for why everyone's doing what they're doing. It's not a precise science, but the basic idea is fairly simple. You're getting on the right track with Bdthemag.
Post by: webadict on August 03, 2011, 09:44:13 pm
Wuba:Well, if you're not attacking any of my reasons, then why would I have to expound on them? Who cares? Clearly, you don't, despite that list marking you as a prime suspect.scriver -> kilakan -> Urist McinternetuserI am not attacking your reasoning on any of these individual verdicts (I figure you know what you are doing through experience), but collectively, the chance of something being wrong somewhere is much more likely. None of what I have made bold I find to be especially conclusive, and are the weaker points that I think could be expounded upon to make them believable for the rest of us.billybobfred- Is being far too stupid to be listening to another IC.
Twiggie -> FlandreSimple- He doesn't seem off to me.Bdthemag- While I dislike his lurkiness, I don't want to lynch him today.jc6036- Too stupid to be scum.
VectorIronyOwl- While I had reasons to believe one of the ICs were scum, I feel like IronyOwl is less likely to be scum than you. He was also able to use basic logic to determine my line of reasoning without my help. Which means if I was going to lynch someone, it's not going to be him, since he is able to think for himself.
No, I don't think I will. I mean, maybe if you had demanded something of me, maybe. Because, as I see it, you're not asking for my reasoning. You're saying, "Would you mind if you just relooked at it maybe kinda sorta, ok thx."
Does that explain what you just did to you?
Post by: Reverie on August 04, 2011, 10:21:51 am
I did not think I would have needed to be aggressive to point out what was wrong, Webadict, and apparently that is where I was mistaken. While it is true that I am nervous to be among those three to whom you have narrowed down your suspicion (which is understandable, regardless of my alignment), I would like to note that circumventing an argument by simply suggesting that you reassess your list should not be confused with meekly pleaing for the same.Wuba:Well, if you're not attacking any of my reasons, then why would I have to expound on them? Who cares? Clearly, you don't, despite that list marking you as a prime suspect.scriver -> kilakan -> Urist McinternetuserI am not attacking your reasoning on any of these individual verdicts (I figure you know what you are doing through experience), but collectively, the chance of something being wrong somewhere is much more likely. None of what I have made bold I find to be especially conclusive, and are the weaker points that I think could be expounded upon to make them believable for the rest of us.billybobfred- Is being far too stupid to be listening to another IC.
Twiggie -> FlandreSimple- He doesn't seem off to me.Bdthemag- While I dislike his lurkiness, I don't want to lynch him today.jc6036- Too stupid to be scum.
VectorIronyOwl- While I had reasons to believe one of the ICs were scum, I feel like IronyOwl is less likely to be scum than you. He was also able to use basic logic to determine my line of reasoning without my help. Which means if I was going to lynch someone, it's not going to be him, since he is able to think for himself.
No, I don't think I will. I mean, maybe if you had demanded something of me, maybe. Because, as I see it, you're not asking for my reasoning. You're saying, "Would you mind if you just relooked at it maybe kinda sorta, ok thx."
Does that explain what you just did to you?
If you want me to be specific on what exactly I wanted to know, then I can do that.
Webadict: Where do you draw the line between stupidity and scummy behavior in the cases of billybobfred and jc? Also, how does not feeling up to lynching Bd translate to disregarding him as scum, for the purpose of crossing him off of your list?
Post by: webadict on August 04, 2011, 10:40:01 am
2) When I make a list like that, I do something that you should probably never do: I townhunt. I look the opposite way to see who NOT to lynch.
3) When I say someone is too stupid to be scum, I mean this: when looking for suspects, it is almost never the most suspicious person. It is also almost never the least suspicious person. It is more than likely the person in the middle, so the "stupid" ones are extraordinarily suspicious in ways scum would never be. Then there's the ones that are super town in a way scum would never be. What do you say about that?
Post by: Reverie on August 04, 2011, 11:46:50 am
1) It SHOULDN'T be okay for me to vote you if you're Town, as it should only be okay to vote scum. It is unacceptable to do nothing to defend yourself, and the fact that you've had to read this twice is absurd.I think this is sound advice, although it was delivered with what felt like a smack to the face. Thank you?
2) When I make a list like that, I do something that you should probably never do: I townhunt. I look the opposite way to see who NOT to lynch.This explains why you moved over Bd on the list, then--you are crossing out those you are not lynching, rather than just those you feel are town. Why do you discourage townhunting, if I may ask?
3) When I say someone is too stupid to be scum, I mean this: when looking for suspects, it is almost never the most suspicious person. It is also almost never the least suspicious person. It is more than likely the person in the middle, so the "stupid" ones are extraordinarily suspicious in ways scum would never be. Then there's the ones that are super town in a way scum would never be. What do you say about that?This makes sense, but singling someone out for being moderately suspicious sounds difficult to do. Does this theory apply so much in a BM, where the scum are sure to be nervous and among the most suspicious?
Post by: webadict on August 04, 2011, 12:11:52 pm
I'm kind of a jerk. Basically, if you miss a piece of information, it can cost you the game.1) It SHOULDN'T be okay for me to vote you if you're Town, as it should only be okay to vote scum. It is unacceptable to do nothing to defend yourself, and the fact that you've had to read this twice is absurd.I think this is sound advice, although it was delivered with what felt like a smack to the face. Thank you?
Townhunting is bad since you can get easily caught by scum that look severely town. I eliminate people to lynch, which is very bad to do if you're not careful. A really good scum can sneak by and be safe. It is also very scummy to do, as then you're not looking for suspicious behavior.2) When I make a list like that, I do something that you should probably never do: I townhunt. I look the opposite way to see who NOT to lynch.This explains why you moved over Bd on the list, then--you are crossing out those you are not lynching, rather than just those you feel are town. Why do you discourage townhunting, if I may ask?
It's also bad practice. I do it because it's easier for me to find good town things than bad scum things.
You forget that the town is just as nervous and incredibly more suspicious than the scum. The scum have people they can rely on at all times: their scumpartner and their IC. So, you can't say that scum will be among the most suspicious. Look at any other BM and tell me that the scum were among the most suspicious. Unlikely. They might be 2nd most suspicious, sure, but almost never THE most suspicious. Usually around 4th through 6th.3) When I say someone is too stupid to be scum, I mean this: when looking for suspects, it is almost never the most suspicious person. It is also almost never the least suspicious person. It is more than likely the person in the middle, so the "stupid" ones are extraordinarily suspicious in ways scum would never be. Then there's the ones that are super town in a way scum would never be. What do you say about that?This makes sense, but singling someone out for being moderately suspicious sounds difficult to do. Does this theory apply so much in a BM, where the scum are sure to be nervous and among the most suspicious?
So, Town is more likely to be suspicious, on account of them not knowing what they need to avoid. Scum has someone to tell them what to avoid.
Post by: Vector on August 04, 2011, 03:19:28 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on August 04, 2011, 03:31:27 pm
Post by: Max White on August 04, 2011, 04:12:21 pm
Bdthemag[3]: Simple, billybobfred, jc6036
jc6036[2]: Bdthemag, Urist Mcinternetuser
billybobfred[1]: Vector
Vector[1]: webadict
Not Voting: Flandre, IronyOwl
The day will end Thursday, 5:00PM Central time. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
LNCP: *Tips hat*
Post by: Reverie on August 04, 2011, 04:57:02 pm
Flandre: I saw you using female pronouns for yourself elsewhere, so I will be using those in the coming post.Heh, thanks. I have grown used to having genderless forum profiles, so I have never been bothered by either pronoun.
I have not come to any decision on who is scum today, so I am not voting.
Post by: webadict on August 04, 2011, 05:02:56 pm
That's actually incredibly scummy, since you're being passive and not having any suspicions. Scum wouldn't be able to pick someone since they know themselves to be scum and no one else.Flandre: I saw you using female pronouns for yourself elsewhere, so I will be using those in the coming post.Heh, thanks. I have grown used to having genderless forum profiles, so I have never been bothered by either pronoun.
I have not come to any decision on who is scum today, so I am not voting.
Post by: webadict on August 04, 2011, 05:07:18 pm
Votecount5 PM what?
Bdthemag[3]: , Simple, billybobfred, jc6036
jc6036[2]: Bdthemag, Urist Mcinternetuser
billybobfred[1]: , Vector
Vector[1]: webadict
Not Voting: Flandre, IronyOwl
The day will end Thursday, 5PM. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
LNCP: *Tips hat*
Post by: Max White on August 04, 2011, 05:08:22 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 04, 2011, 05:10:56 pm
Central time, if what should have been the end of the day 48 hours ago holds any indication.Votecount5 PM what?
Bdthemag[3]: , Simple, billybobfred, jc6036
jc6036[2]: Bdthemag, Urist Mcinternetuser
billybobfred[1]: , Vector
Vector[1]: webadict
Not Voting: Flandre, IronyOwl
The day will end Thursday, 5PM. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
LNCP: *Tips hat*
Post by: Bdthemag on August 04, 2011, 05:24:59 pm
Post by: Vector on August 04, 2011, 05:29:14 pm
Honestly, now you're just being angry.
Look, I was expecting someone who claims to have been able to see both beginner scum in a game to have been able to correctly identify scummy people. I just don't see that. I see you going after minor things.
You're going after billybobfred because...? What is your expert opinion on why he is scum, and tell me why, with all factors, that would be true?
Yes. Got a bit too tired there, sorry.
Getting back in the hunt generally takes a little time. I went after Billybobfred because I wasn't sure of how I felt about him; didn't have much of a read. He was cool about being voted and I felt that his list of analyses had a very towny feel. I didn't have a chance to state that when I saw the new post.
As such, Unvote. At this point I'm looking at Flandre, Urist McInternetuser (I'd given him the benefit of the doubt due to being a recent replacement, but this level of lurking has simply become absurd), and BDthemag as what is hopefully the final list of three.
Vector, uh... it's a bit disconcerting to hear you admit to trying to play webadict in just the right manner to shake him. Could you elaborate on that?
The more time he spends voting me, the less time he spends voting scum.
Ideally, a townie should promote enough attention to defense that they can become cleared for others' convenience. I have a very strong interest in lynching scum and keeping the attention on them at all times; I try to strike scum more than I try to clear town, though I do both. Webadict, on the other hand, is a town-hunter. The faster I clear myself, the faster he can move on to being more effective elsewhere. At the same time, the way he reacts to my reactions will tell me something about him...
I believe that for town to be effective, they need to be cautious, careful, consistent, and ragingly energetic. Town should play a highly self-preservational game. It isn't that self-preservation is scummy. It's that there's a balance between twin priorities of the preservation of the self and the attacks on others, and the latter should always be more important than the former.
If everyone is trying to lynch you, it gets a lot harder to make your attacks. Your defense takes up more and more of your energy. If you can keep ahead of the curve and answer well before you'd be asked to defend against a full attack, you're generally doing a better job as town. Some friction is good. It helps the arguers clear each other. Too much friction, on the other hand, and you're up the creek. Either you're lynched or you've lost lots of effort in pig-headed fight you could have easily evaded. With luck, you can create just the right amount to learn which way is up.
As I've said, I've been in this particular scenario at least 5 times. I think through what hasn't worked before, and I try something new. Some things have worked extraordinarily badly, despite being plans taken as town, and I work to avoid them. All there is to it.
Billybob: Finally, someone votes me and has actual reasoning behind the vote, I applaud you.
Stop buddying/appeasing.
By the way, you still haven't responded to my case. That makes me think that you're just trying to sweep it under the rug.
I'll add that you're doing better, though: this is why I'm not voting you right now. So have confidence and keep going.
@Vector I didn't say that Flandre is town, I said that Flandre probably is town, as in I'm not suspicious of him at the moment.
Your last post was two days ago.
Two. Fucking. Days.
You were last active on the forums today, only a couple of hours ago.
Get out here and start hunting. You've been providing the shortest possible answers to everything and riding an easy vote. No explanations. No reasoning. Nothing. Cut it out.
Vector:I simply cannot be in your blindspot if you focus a question at me. If it helps you to get a read on me, I would be happy to offer my defense whenever you are ready to start interrogating.
Haha. Okay, here you go, honey :3
Billybobfred: I do not recall ever interrogating you, so I will make a request. Similarly to those entries you have given for everyone above, I want you to give yourself an objective self-evaluation and add yourself to the wall, end result and all.
Asking someone else to interrogate themselves for you, at this point of the game, is simply lazy. It allows you to bend whatever they have to say to your whim. Also permits you to never make any real effort.
I am not attacking your reasoning on any of these individual verdicts (I figure you know what you are doing through experience), but collectively, the chance of something being wrong somewhere is much more likely. None of what I have made bold I find to be especially conclusive, and are the weaker points that I think could be expounded upon to make them believable for the rest of us.
Indirect. Passive.
While it is true that I am nervous to be among those three to whom you have narrowed down your suspicion (which is understandable, regardless of my alignment), I would like to note that circumventing an argument by simply suggesting that you reassess your list should not be confused with meekly pleading for the same.
Suddenly more italics, and you're telling us what's reasonable in advance. Here's my reaction, my reaction's reasonable! But I tried to cover it up, augh, flaiiil~! Tell me, do you use italics when you're feeling especially emphatic? Or nervous? Do your sentences stretch out longer? Here's a hint: normally, you use two clauses. Here, when you start being forced to defend yourself, you stretch to three.
I'm getting a strong feeling of dishonesty from you.
I have not come to any decision on who is scum today, so I am not voting.
Go find some.
Honestly, you're playing too passively. Get your hands dirty. Attack someone. Do you think it's going to be any easier to find scum tomorrow?
No. So get to it.
I'll also note that you haven't responded to Webadict's statement that your behavior is scummy, either, despite posting in the topic. That's a very bad sign.
Does this theory apply so much in a BM, where the scum are sure to be nervous and among the most suspicious?
This implies that you know none of the ICs are scum, Flandre.
Now, how did you figure that out?
Post by: Reverie on August 04, 2011, 05:54:08 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on August 04, 2011, 06:00:47 pm
Post by: Vector on August 04, 2011, 06:01:57 pm
Indeed.
Post by: Reverie on August 04, 2011, 06:06:28 pm
I am sorry for making this day longer, guys.
Post by: Max White on August 04, 2011, 06:09:48 pm
Post by: Vector on August 04, 2011, 06:13:23 pm
Post by: Max White on August 04, 2011, 06:15:37 pm
The day has been shortened to Friday , the 5th , 5:00 PM Central time.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 04, 2011, 06:20:31 pm
That's too long an extension. Extend to Friday. We need some time-pressure.Agreed.
I have not come to any decision on who is scum today, so I am not voting.This is completely unacceptable if you're not working on the problem. Please don't let my current lack of a vote make you think it's ever okay to just shrug about who you want dead.
Urist, where are you? Who do you suspect? Sitting on your JC vote isn't helpful to town. You do want to be helpful to town, don't you?
Bd, don't you have anything better to do than ask for an extension?
Simple, haven't heard from you in a while either.
Post by: billybobfred on August 04, 2011, 06:57:01 pm
(At this rate, day 1 will be most important because it will be most of the game!)
Billybobfred: I do not recall ever interrogating you, so I will make a request. Similarly to those entries you have given for everyone above, I want you to give yourself an objective self-evaluation and add yourself to the wall, end result and all.I can't give an objective evaluation of myself similar to the other players'. None of my actions look suspicious to me, even the really stupid ones, because I know why I did them. (I was kinda there!)
Literally anyone else would give a more objective evaluation.
You have as much access to CTRL+F as I did. And it will take you much less time, since you will be investigating only one person instead of eight.
That's a general "you", by the way; if anybody else wants to investigate me, don't hold back on Flandre's account.
... Though I might well look over my posts anyway. For completeness' sake, I guess.
Billybob: Finally, someone votes me and has actual reasoning behind the vote, I applaud you.I notice you still haven't answered the question...
I mean, come on. I went out of my way to make it not about objective fact anymore, that's how tired I was of not being answered.
Also, complimenting someone for trying to kill you? Really unnerving. I sure hope that's what you were going for, because that's the only thing you got.
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 04, 2011, 07:13:43 pm
@IronyOwl I'm not as sure about jc as I was before, bd does seem the scummiest, but I'm not sure, I should question him some.
@Bd Do you have a rebuttal against your current lynchers?
@Vector As for my lurkiness, I just don't know what kind of questions to ask at this point in the game, I could ask some weird little, "If you were scum, what kind of blank would you blank" but that hardly seems helpful.
Post by: webadict on August 04, 2011, 07:21:58 pm
I can't let you do that.
Also, nice to see you come back Urist.
UnvoteYou should be focusing on how those previous questions were answered. We're far past RVS.
@IronyOwl I'm not as sure about jc as I was before, bd does seem the scummiest, but I'm not sure, I should question him some.
@Bd Do you have a rebuttal against your current lynchers?
@Vector As for my lurkiness, I just don't know what kind of questions to ask at this point in the game, I could ask some weird little, "If you were scum, what kind of blank would you blank" but that hardly seems helpful.
Post by: Vector on August 04, 2011, 07:42:29 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 04, 2011, 08:58:06 pm
I thought that a response would have been insightful at the time I posted this, but after some thinking, I felt terrible about it. I will gladly redact this and think of something else to ask him.Billybobfred: I do not recall ever interrogating you, so I will make a request. Similarly to those entries you have given for everyone above, I want you to give yourself an objective self-evaluation and add yourself to the wall, end result and all.
Asking someone else to interrogate themselves for you, at this point of the game, is simply lazy. It allows you to bend whatever they have to say to your whim. Also permits you to never make any real effort.
I wanted to prod what I saw were flaws Wuba's list without trying to push him over for a response. The argument that you had with him the other day convinced me that both of you were town, and because of this, I figured there would be little to gain by kicking a response out of him. Ordinarily, I would not have minded, because I can read into an angry response more easily than I could a collected response. As I have pointed out above, though, I have cleared both of your names. It could be a flaw of mine that I try not to be confrontational wherever I can avoid it, and genial with every answer that I offer--I am like this in real-life, too. I was not expecting Wuba to lash out like he did in response to my post, and I was caught off-guard with my defenses down as a result; I might as well have been naked and guilty enough for both of the mafia. While my rebuttal did give me the information I wanted, it was apparently transparent enough to show my discomfort, despite my attempt to hide it.I am not attacking your reasoning on any of these individual verdicts (I figure you know what you are doing through experience), but collectively, the chance of something being wrong somewhere is much more likely. None of what I have made bold I find to be especially conclusive, and are the weaker points that I think could be expounded upon to make them believable for the rest of us.
Indirect. Passive.While it is true that I am nervous to be among those three to whom you have narrowed down your suspicion (which is understandable, regardless of my alignment), I would like to note that circumventing an argument by simply suggesting that you reassess your list should not be confused with meekly pleading for the same.Suddenly more italics, and you're telling us what's reasonable in advance. Here's my reaction, my reaction's reasonable! But I tried to cover it up, augh, flaiiil~! Tell me, do you use italics when you're feeling especially emphatic? Or nervous? Do your sentences stretch out longer? Here's a hint: normally, you use two clauses. Here, when you start being forced to defend yourself, you stretch to three.
I'm getting a strong feeling of dishonesty from you.
I missed that post. I did not think to scroll up when I entered the thread via the 'Unread Posts' link at the top of the page.I have not come to any decision on who is scum today, so I am not voting.
Go find some.
Honestly, you're playing too passively. Get your hands dirty. Attack someone. Do you think it's going to be any easier to find scum tomorrow?
No. So get to it.
I'll also note that you haven't responded to Webadict's statement that your behavior is scummy, either, despite posting in the topic. That's a very bad sign.
Webadict, I will say that I hesitate to lynch someone if I am not entirely sure that they are scum. I do not plan on jumping on any bandwagons, so while I find jc and Bd suspicious, there is not enough for me to go on to vote for them. Simple and Urist have been absent for a while. Simple is an aggressive player who does not appear to be scummy, and Urist has been reserved even before his disappearance. Between the two, Urist seems the more suspicious, even though I have cleared him after my interrogation with him (which fell apart on a blunder I have made with post chronology). As noted above, both you and Vector appear to be town, and I have not even glanced in billybobfred's direction the entire game, up until he made that nice word wall. I figured that asking him to add himself to that wall would allow me to collect sufficient evidence to clear him before the day expired, but it was slapped down by Vector. IronyOwl is difficult to read, simply because he spends much of his time being an IC.
Because I asked specifically about Beginner's Mafia, I assumed that he knew that I was referring to novice players as they fit into both alignments. I am aware that an IC might also be scum, and that my question could have been more specific.Does this theory apply so much in a BM, where the scum are sure to be nervous and among the most suspicious?
This implies that you know none of the ICs are scum, Flandre.
Now, how did you figure that out?
Post by: Reverie on August 04, 2011, 09:08:33 pm
Heh, what a mess.
Post by: webadict on August 04, 2011, 09:20:23 pm
Webadict, there is going to be some point where some fucking evidence is needed from you, too. Just so you know.Hahahahaha.
I love how badly I could technically get away without doing anything. Technically, if I make the scumteam lynch each other, do I get a gold medal? It goes nicely with my crown.
I've already provided evidence in the form of waiting for Flandre to do something.
Webadict, I will say that I hesitate to lynch someone if I am not entirely sure that they are scum. I do not plan on jumping on any bandwagons, so while I find jc and Bd suspicious, there is not enough for me to go on to vote for them. Simple and Urist have been absent for a while. Simple is an aggressive player who does not appear to be scummy, and Urist has been reserved even before his disappearance. Between the two, Urist seems the more suspicious, even though I have cleared him after my interrogation with him (which fell apart on a blunder I have made with post chronology). As noted above, both you and Vector appear to be town, and I have not even glanced in billybobfred's direction the entire game, up until he made that nice word wall. I figured that asking him to add himself to that wall would allow me to collect sufficient evidence to clear him before the day expired, but it was slapped down by Vector. IronyOwl is difficult to read, simply because he spends much of his time being an IC.Tell me what it takes to be "entirely sure" someone is scum. Because you CANNOT be "entirely sure" someone is scum. Ever.
And as a little rolefishing bonus, if you claim Cop, I will let you live. If you aren't, then I'm afraid I have to help lynch you. Them's the breaks, kid. Sure, you might be killed tonight, but that's a risk I am willing to take. Especially since that makes me less of a target.
If you're wondering why I'm asking, it's that the only way you could be asking if someone is "entirely sure" is: 1) you're a Cop, and you have the one method of being "entirely sure," or 2) you're scum, and therefore you cannot be "entirely sure" of anyone's scumminess but your own. And your partner's. Who I'm prooooobably guessing is one of Vector or Urist.
Or, if you think you can manage the odds against this lynch, then feel free to claim vanilla.
Also, Urist. Congratulations on not doing anything. You'll be lynched second.
Post by: Reverie on August 04, 2011, 09:30:23 pm
I am glad to see that you took that request better than I thought you would have. What reason would you have to freak out and leave for days at a time, though?Billybobfred: I do not recall ever interrogating you, so I will make a request. Similarly to those entries you have given for everyone above, I want you to give yourself an objective self-evaluation and add yourself to the wall, end result and all.I can't give an objective evaluation of myself similar to the other players'. None of my actions look suspicious to me, even the really stupid ones, because I know why I did them. (I was kinda there!)
Literally anyone else would give a more objective evaluation.
You have as much access to CTRL+F as I did. And it will take you much less time, since you will be investigating only one person instead of eight.
That's a general "you", by the way; if anybody else wants to investigate me, don't hold back on Flandre's account.
... Though I might well look over my posts anyway. For completeness' sake, I guess.
Tell me what it takes to be "entirely sure" someone is scum. Because you CANNOT be "entirely sure" someone is scum. Ever.Wuba, you are reading into what I have said. By 'entirely' I meant something along the lines of 'with sufficient evidence to be'.
And as a little rolefishing bonus, if you claim Cop, I will let you live. If you aren't, then I'm afraid I have to help lynch you. Them's the breaks, kid. Sure, you might be killed tonight, but that's a risk I am willing to take. Especially since that makes me less of a target.
If you're wondering why I'm asking, it's that the only way you could be asking if someone is "entirely sure" is: 1) you're a Cop, and you have the one method of being "entirely sure," or 2) you're scum, and therefore you cannot be "entirely sure" of anyone's scumminess but your own. And your partner's. Who I'm prooooobably guessing is one of Vector or Urist.
Or, if you think you can manage the odds against this lynch, then feel free to claim vanilla.
And no, I am not a cop.
Post by: Vector on August 04, 2011, 09:31:44 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 04, 2011, 09:34:44 pm
This is the part where you failed to claim town, and I start raising my eyebrow.I thought that went without saying.
Post by: Vector on August 04, 2011, 09:37:02 pm
Why did the argument between myself and Webadict convince you that the two of us were town? What I've learned from your list is that you've cleared almost everyone but Urist and IronyOwl, and IronyOwl is not clear because...
Ah, yes. IronyOwl is ICing. Exactly the charge that Webadict tried to nail me on. Except for the fact that mostly, IronyOwl is playing and isn't really correcting play much. So that's a trumped-up charge right there.
So why is it, precisely, that when you don't have any information on IronyOwl you don't do the townie thing (theoretically demonstrated by Webadict) and instead you do the scummy thing (borrow allegations)?
Also, one of those posts you attributed to Webadict was written by me. I'm just letting you know that for the sake of interest.
Web: Frankly, I have a very hard time letting you go "Oh, Vector's still scum (for no reason but being gone for a while and apparently process of elimination on newbies), but let's lynch these other two people first!" It looks a hell of a lot like lynch chaining.
This is the part where you failed to claim town, and I start raising my eyebrow.I thought that went without saying.
No. Scumbucket.
Post by: Reverie on August 04, 2011, 10:08:48 pm
Oh, and the other thing:I don't have a read on IronyOwl, whereas I do with you and Webadict. IronyOwl as an IC has been very helpful by providing good tips and helpful advice, but I have not really seen him needing to really defend himself because no one has really attacked him. Until I, or someone else interrogates him, he will remain on the list until I can read him. Watching you and Wuba argue has allowed me to read the both of you, so I have no reason to suspect the either of you. This is why you two fall under 'everyone else'.
Why did the argument between myself and Webadict convince you that the two of us were town? What I've learned from your list is that you've cleared almost everyone but Urist and IronyOwl, and IronyOwl is not clear because...
Ah, yes. IronyOwl is ICing. Exactly the charge that Webadict tried to nail me on. Except for the fact that mostly, IronyOwl is playing and isn't really correcting play much. So that's a trumped-up charge right there.
So why is it, precisely, that when you don't have any information on IronyOwl you don't do the townie thing (theoretically demonstrated by Webadict) and instead you do the scummy thing (borrow allegations)?
Also, one of those posts you attributed to Webadict was written by me. I'm just letting you know that for the sake of interest.I responded to the post you said that I missed. The first line was for you, and from them on, I addressed Webadict.
Post by: billybobfred on August 04, 2011, 10:37:27 pm
What reason would you have to freak out and leave for days at a time, though?Well every time I did anything in this game that was an actual thing I somehow convinced myself that everyone would flip out and hate me for it
Spoiler: pointless wangsting inside (click to show/hide)
Post by: Vector on August 04, 2011, 10:41:40 pm
Still around, despite being killed quite a few times myself =) But mostly, I end up alright. So get out there, and have fun, and take risks. No one is going to get genuinely pissed at you, no matter how stupid you are. I, er... speak from experience.
And if you want to keep yourself alive, be active, keep talking, and don't worry when people call you names. We're bluffing most of the time. Just between us two ;]
Post by: webadict on August 04, 2011, 11:08:02 pm
Web: Frankly, I have a very hard time letting you go "Oh, Vector's still scum (for no reason but being gone for a while and apparently process of elimination on newbies), but let's lynch these other two people first!" It looks a hell of a lot like lynch chaining.Hmm? No, I don't think you quite understand. I KNOW you're scum. You've got a certain air about you when you're scum. It's actually quite easy to see. Unfortunately, I'm just waiting for people to realize the obvious things.
So, your life hangs on my ability to make a bandwagon on you. Which I won't at this moment. I feel like leading you around some more. Because, really, I'm just that manipulative. Plus, you're helping me figure out who's your real partner.
And, oh yeah, it pretty much is chainlynching. Got any problems with that? I could even do a "lynch me, then lynch Vector" one if you want. I mean, you might as well try to get rid of me now. Passive attacks are just so unbecoming.
I'm just trying to figure out how much effort you're going to put into lynching certain people. I think Urist might in fact be your partner, instead, but I can't quite tell. See, you probably wouldn't allow Flandre to be like this. I mean, if I were her scum partner, I'd probably be giving her tips if I was going to focus on her. I don't think you'd write this post if you were scum with her:
If it helps, bro, I have fairly severe social disabilities and came here to work on overcoming them--two years ago.That's the scum IC reassuring newbie Town post. Basically a "no harsh feelings" post.
Still around, despite being killed quite a few times myself =) But mostly, I end up alright. So get out there, and have fun, and take risks. No one is going to get genuinely pissed at you, no matter how stupid you are. I, er... speak from experience.
And if you want to keep yourself alive, be active, keep talking, and don't worry when people call you names. We're bluffing most of the time. Just between us two ;]
Anything else you'd like to accuse me of, Vector? I mean, considering that I've done almost every scumtell in the book and STILL haven't even received a vote... Doesn't it just make you mad? Do you know WHY I've done this? Other than that I'm a bad person, it's to show that being scum is NOT about scumtells. So, accuse me of doing another scumtell. I know all your threats are empty, since you want me on your side.
Feel free to write in scumchat how much you hate me.
Post by: Vector on August 04, 2011, 11:30:56 pm
I do not have any ability to give anyone outside of this thread tips. Not Flandre, not Urist, not anyone else.
That post was the IC with semi-crippling, irritatingly obvious Asperger's hoping that maybe, just maybe someone else won't feel as alone as she did, and can find a home here as well. It has nothing to do with alignment and everything to do with my capacity for compassion. Not all of us calculate absolutely every move, you know.
And yes, you piss me right the fuck off, but being angry with you is different from being incapable of controlling myself. If I genuinely had a scum read from you, rather than just a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach, I would vote you and be done with it. Right now, I just sit here hoping that you'll eventually stop listening to that bullshit machine in your basement and start listening to reason.
All I can do right now is carefully examine what you have to say and hope that I'll be able to catch you if you need catching, and let you go if you're genuinely innocent. I'd rather have you working for town rather than against it, sure, but I'll take the best I can get.
Post by: billybobfred on August 04, 2011, 11:55:50 pm
I think Urist might in fact be your partner, instead, but I can't quite tell. See, you probably wouldn't allow Flandre to be like this.
webadict, are you creating teams?
I seem to recall something you said in another game...
STOP CREATING TEAMS. STOP. DOING. IT. IT DOESN'T WORK.
That's... more than a little off, isn't it?
Post by: billybobfred on August 04, 2011, 11:57:58 pm
Though my perceptions might be skewed by the fact that you spent most of it dead...
Post by: webadict on August 05, 2011, 12:03:42 am
I'm town, you Arschgeige. I don't have a scumchat to complain in or you'd be getting something other than my full frustration. If you hinge this game on me being scum and pull the newbies around by the nose to get me lynched, you are going to lose it for us. Presumably. Maybe you'll just be winning it for yourself. I really wish you wouldn't teach the newbies so many bad habits by example, however. You are showing everyone precisely how this game shouldn't be played in the outset, and it's seriously irking me.Anybody can say they're Town. It's part of the point of the game, after all. Unfortunately, I can hardly believe such a statement. I don't like being threatened with the loss of the game by the potential mislynch of one individual. I do, however, enjoy your clear-as-day passive attacks.
I do not have any ability to give anyone outside of this thread tips. Not Flandre, not Urist, not anyone else.
That post was the IC with semi-crippling, irritatingly obvious Asperger's hoping that maybe, just maybe someone else won't feel as alone as she did, and can find a home here as well. It has nothing to do with alignment and everything to do with my capacity for compassion. Not all of us calculate absolutely every move, you know.
And yes, you piss me right the fuck off, but being angry with you is different from being incapable of controlling myself. If I genuinely had a scum read from you, rather than just a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach, I would vote you and be done with it. Right now, I just sit here hoping that you'll eventually stop listening to that bullshit machine in your basement and start listening to reason.
All I can do right now is carefully examine what you have to say and hope that I'll be able to catch you if you need catching, and let you go if you're genuinely innocent. I'd rather have you working for town rather than against it, sure, but I'll take the best I can get.
As for your previous post, I suppose I'll let you slide on that point. While I suppose every move I make is carefully calculated, I tend to assume others will too, as I'd rather be cautious.
To be fair, my post is more along the lines of "stop making passive attacks on me." It's getting old. Just say it straightforward and be done with it. Say "You're setting up chainlynchs." Don't say "that looks an awfully lot like chainlynching," since this one is easily countered with a "But it's not." And then I could easily waste your time with semantics. At least with the first one, you're taking a stance. I might not be chainlynching, but what I'm doing could definitely be scummy. See the difference?
It's those little things that I want to lynch you for, because you should know better than to not be making passive attacks or lurk or activelurk. It builds up.
Do you think I'm doing these things to make you mad? That'd be pointless. I'm doing this because you're not doing BASIC things!
That's correct. You shouldn't be making teams. But, unfortunately, I'm unable to lynch Vector at this moment, so, I'm afraid I'm left with few alternatives. These are: lynch someone I suspect to be Vector's teammate OR try to figure out Vector's teammate. Since the first one on its own isn't usually a good idea, I'm using a combinatorial approach.I think Urist might in fact be your partner, instead, but I can't quite tell. See, you probably wouldn't allow Flandre to be like this.
webadict, are you creating teams?
I seem to recall something you said in another game...STOP CREATING TEAMS. STOP. DOING. IT. IT DOESN'T WORK.
That's... more than a little off, isn't it?
Post by: billybobfred on August 05, 2011, 12:13:13 am
Vector is scum. Whether I think so or not is pointless if I KNOW she is.
you CANNOT be "entirely sure" someone is scum. Ever.You are contradicting yourself an awful lot!
Post by: Vector on August 05, 2011, 12:37:18 am
*sigh*
I'm trying to leave a trail. If I levy direct attacks on you right now, I'll have to deal with you in full--which I can't. It's not time to make a case. If I end up getting lynched, I want to have pointed out every single last thing I can before that happens.
But very well. I will rephrase all future commentary in order to leave you no space to finagle your way out of.
BillyBobFred, Webadict is enjoying his run through the beginner's game by doing absolutely every single thing a newbie shouldn't do and waiting for someone to knock him flat on his ass. He's proving to us that town can be led around by the nose as long as enough authority is employed.
Scum is about more than scumtells, right Wub? It's mostly about making yourself look as big as possible, so no one can do anything about you, and appealing to authority and threats. You attack a juicy target, save them for later if they're at all capable of defending themselves, and call it all out on your gut--because you're big old Webadict, who is never wrong. And you like playing scum with flair. It's all about how much shit you can shove down other people's throats before they call you on it. I figured this out from your scumchat last game, by the way.
You appeal to techniques of town-hunting because you know I'll recognize them as some sort of "vintage Webadict" bullshit, rather than what they are--an ability to direct and manipulate. Which you enjoy doing, as you said.
Your attacks are weak and entirely empty of any real force. What the fuck IS your case on Flandre, anyway? Pretty much empty, much like your case on me? You attack my targets and call them my "scumteam," restricting my fire; and then you'll be able to chain-lynch me to death in the end-game, the crowning cherry of this big bullshit cake you're weaving.
You call out gambits because you know I'd do nothing to get myself lynched as town, and that I'll never call your bluff. It's not in my character. It's not dangerous for you.
And behind all this, you're taunting us for failing to vote you despite your wheelbarrows of shit?
No. Webadict, you're a sack of scum covered in warts. Enjoy hanging.
Post by: Simple on August 05, 2011, 05:54:02 am
Post by: Simple on August 05, 2011, 07:30:08 am
jc6036 - He's random as hell. I can't say for sure if that's because he don't know what to do or because he tries to influence the situation to his gain without much effort. He tries at least and that makes me think he's not scum.
Flandre - Agrees Vector - assumes town. She's not here to hunt scum but to give us clues - makes me think about her purpose of this way of playing.Don't want to retaliate on anything, fears calling out omgus probably ? Let's other do work for her ( accusing themselves ) Few times adds the despite of alignment annotation and then says it's obvious when asked.
Bdthemag - He's completelty lazy but i have the feeling he just don't care about being lynched or scum victory either. That bascially makes him completely useless but gives us no insight on his real goals. I guess i was to inclined to judge him basing on his attitiude than his actions. Praising billybob case on him based only on length of his post is riddicoulous though.Also dropping by just to say extend twice in a row is annoying as hell.
Urist Mcinternetuser - Need to say something more but if i were to judge him he leans more on the scum side right now. At first it was just saying he already posted full case on jc ( if it is real i couldn't find it ) then in every question asked after that he changed his opinion on what was most suspiucious about him. Then he uses someone else questions and cases without adding or asking somehting of his own. Then his strange backup of flandre (he made it clear that he's sure that she's town) at some point , this seemed like a way to keep her on attacking the same target as him.
billybobfred - He seems to be inclined to using only definite facts that can't be simply dismissed but i can't tell if that's because he don't want to make mistake or he's fearing quick counterattack.
webadict - presses on in rather specific way but if it makes people respond it can't be bad.And there's this last taunting post about which i can't tell if it was serious or rather just provoking.
Vector - I agree with most of her arguments from last few posts so i guess it's at least somewhat clearing her name but it's hard for me to tell if i'm just being decieved.
IronyOwl - Here i got the problem of not seeing a definite suspect from him yet. And i guess if he won't provide one it will rise my suspicion quite a bit.
Also argument beetween Vector and Webadict left me with the feeling that i have no idea what good mafia play looks like. Or that town should always start with lynching IC just to be sure. Albo dokładnie odwrotnie.
Post by: Simple on August 05, 2011, 07:36:32 am
Post by: webadict on August 05, 2011, 07:42:35 am
Also:Not QUITE the same. Mostly because I was just being funny in that first one. When I say I know Vector is scum, it means I would cut off my right arm to lynch her because that's how sure I am she's scum.Vector is scum. Whether I think so or not is pointless if I KNOW she is.you CANNOT be "entirely sure" someone is scum. Ever.You are contradicting yourself an awful lot!
Flandre, thank you for the answers. Unvote.No, no, no, no.
*sigh*
I'm trying to leave a trail. If I levy direct attacks on you right now, I'll have to deal with you in full--which I can't. It's not time to make a case. If I end up getting lynched, I want to have pointed out every single last thing I can before that happens.
But very well. I will rephrase all future commentary in order to leave you no space to finagle your way out of.
BillyBobFred, Webadict is enjoying his run through the beginner's game by doing absolutely every single thing a newbie shouldn't do and waiting for someone to knock him flat on his ass. He's proving to us that town can be led around by the nose as long as enough authority is employed.
Scum is about more than scumtells, right Wub? It's mostly about making yourself look as big as possible, so no one can do anything about you, and appealing to authority and threats. You attack a juicy target, save them for later if they're at all capable of defending themselves, and call it all out on your gut--because you're big old Webadict, who is never wrong. And you like playing scum with flair. It's all about how much shit you can shove down other people's throats before they call you on it. I figured this out from your scumchat last game, by the way.
There is no US. There is YOU. Don't bring anyone else in on that. I enjoy that you've now decided I'm scum since I've been playing mind games with you. Did you decide that you no longer wish to give away your secrets?
Classic Vector. I see you're going back to your old ways of voting for scumtells. Cute. So, let's see.
Apparently I'm leading Town around by the nose... So, that means, I've led people to vote for Vector so far. Ah. I see Vector is still voteless. Hm. That means this ISN'T a self-preservation thing. It means that this is an actual attack, and that is a case.
Seriously, don't lie. And if you are going to lie, don't be a pansy about it.
BillyBobFred, Webadict is enjoying his run through the beginner's game by doing absolutely every single thing a newbie shouldn't do and waiting for someone to knock him flat on his ass. He's proving to us that town can be led around by the nose as long as enough authority is employed.I love this quote. It's funny, since YOU yourself have appealed to my authority (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2462241#msg2462241).
Scum is about more than scumtells, right Wub? It's mostly about making yourself look as big as possible, so no one can do anything about you, and appealing to authority and threats. You attack a juicy target, save them for later if they're at all capable of defending themselves, and call it all out on your gut--because you're big old Webadict, who is never wrong. And you like playing scum with flair. It's all about how much shit you can shove down other people's throats before they call you on it. I figured this out from your scumchat last game, by the way.
And, really? You think my meta is "act like a jerk to Vector?" I really want to see WHERE you got this idea. I believe that my scumchat last game was the last BM I played. And no, no I didn't. I guess you could call me claiming Cop to be the worst I did. But, falseclaiming is different than what you intended. Stop trying to feed crap to everyone.
You appeal to techniques of town-hunting because you know I'll recognize them as some sort of "vintage Webadict" bullshit, rather than what they are--an ability to direct and manipulate. Which you enjoy doing, as you said.You're taking the manipulative side. You're manipulating my words to make it seem like anything I do to you is done to the Town. Apparently, you're the Town? I guess that would make sense as to why threatening me with the loss of the Town would occur by me lynching you! My bad for missing that!
Your attacks are weak and entirely empty of any real force. What the fuck IS your case on Flandre, anyway? Pretty much empty, much like your case on me? You attack my targets and call them my "scumteam," restricting my fire; and then you'll be able to chain-lynch me to death in the end-game, the crowning cherry of this big bullshit cake you're weaving.
As for Townhunting, I love that you're using the REVERSE META argument. Apparently, only SCUM ME would ever act like TOWN ME! Especially when mixed with the fact that you're saying only SCUM ME would ever be so boisterous as TOWN ME!
Do you see the hypocrisy there?
What is my case on Flandre? Well, honestly, I could care less. I'm reading YOUR reaction on Flandre. I just figured I'd give you some moral support. It makes it seem like I'm not watching you that way. To be fair, it doesn't LOOK like Flandre is your partner, so if she is, congratulations.
Anyhow, I enjoy that you assume I'm chainlynching you. By... I don't know. I guess because I said it's like that. Honestly, I was just making fun of you there. But, if you think I'm able to chainlynch, then go right ahead and step on the platform. I don't mind.
You call out gambits because you know I'd do nothing to get myself lynched as town, and that I'll never call your bluff. It's not in my character. It's not dangerous for you.Everything has to be about danger with me, apparently. I don't think you're understanding things very well. You're not town, and therefore the things you're doing? They're getting you lynched. This is really just a last ditch effort on your part. You finally got what I was doing after all.
And behind all this, you're taunting us for failing to vote you despite your wheelbarrows of shit?
And I'm taunting YOU. Not "us" unless "us" refers to your scumteam, in which case, yes, I am taunting your partner too. May Urist (I'm fairly sure) join on your vengevote.
No. Webadict, you're a sack of scum covered in warts. Enjoy hanging.Odd, considering that you didn't consider this an attack. Why would I enjoy hanging? Why were you resigning yourself to being lynched with a total of ZERO votes on you? I mean, sure, I could turn that into a WHOPPING ONE WHOLE VOTES! I'm just that skilled. But, there comes a point where you are shutting down. Probably because I've told you what I was doing.
So, if you want to play the lying game, that's fine by me, Vector. And inb4 you call this an OMGUS, despite me calling you scum beforehand. It would fit right in with the rest of your lies.
Post by: Reverie on August 05, 2011, 11:04:55 am
Simple:
Flandre - Agrees Vector - assumes town. She's not here to hunt scum but to give us clues - makes me think about her purpose of this way of playing.Don't want to retaliate on anything, fears calling out omgus probably ? Let's other do work for her ( accusing themselves ) Few times adds the despite of alignment annotation and then says it's obvious when asked.
I will agree with you in disliking the request I made of billybob, but it was intended to give me something quick to go on before the day ended, not to be lazy and watch him attack himself. Also, the way I see it, offering clues by pointing out others' mistakes is just another way to scumhunt. They must still explain themselves, and I think those responses can be invaluable. Whenever I take the time in my argument to point out that what I am saying is valid for both sides, it is to prevent someone from claiming a false scumtell in their rebuttal. It is ironic, then, that doing so looks scummy in and of itself. Because of this, I will not be doing it anymore.
I am a little embarrassed to ask, but what is omgus?
Post by: Reverie on August 05, 2011, 11:13:15 am
Post by: jc6036 on August 05, 2011, 11:48:16 am
When the problem clears up I think I will join the next beginners game.
Unvote
sorry. I dont think I was helping town much anyways though.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 05, 2011, 02:07:23 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 05, 2011, 04:35:07 pm
Im having some internet problems guys, feel free to replace me. I would honestly be able to post all of like every other day at max, so just go ahead and replace me.Goodbye, jc. I will see you in the next game! :3
When the problem clears up I think I will join the next beginners game.
Unvote
sorry. I dont think I was helping town much anyways though.
[/quote]
Oh, and I just noticed something...
Bdthemag:Bdthemag: You have the propensity to avoid questions when they are asked of you. I want to know why you used such a poor excuse.Jc: Excuse me for my "terrible questions", this is a beginners game after all.How many games have you been a part of before you joined this one? It had to be several games, if you have gained notoriety as a lurker.
Post by: Reverie on August 05, 2011, 04:45:39 pm
Post by: Max White on August 05, 2011, 05:59:58 pm
Bdthemag[1]: billybobfred
jc6036[1]: Bdthemag
Vector[1]: webadict
Urist Mcinternetuser[1]: IronyOwl
webadict[1]: Vector
Not Voting: Flandre, Urist Mcinternetuser, Simple, jc6036
The day will end Friday, 5:00PM Central time. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten. Unless I am mistaken, I believe that is in one hour!
As a reminder, if the day ends with a tie, there will be a no lynch!
Post by: IronyOwl on August 05, 2011, 06:04:38 pm
Urist:
UnvoteThis is useless and lazy. Do you even know what his current lynchers are saying? Why didn't you ask him directly about their points, then? Instead you just say "Bd, do stuff you probably would have been doing already if you were here/coherent." Likely because you know he won't and can then lynch him for it.
@IronyOwl I'm not as sure about jc as I was before, bd does seem the scummiest, but I'm not sure, I should question him some.
@Bd Do you have a rebuttal against your current lynchers?
No, if you really care about finding out whether he's scum or town, you'll ask him something specific to try to get into his head.
Also, before I forget, I would like to request an extension until Monday. Because Mafia time does not account for weekends, the night phase would be 72 hours long otherwise.Unless all night actions get in before then, in which case it'd just go however long it needed to and then end.
NINJA'D: Yeah we need more than an hour. We can shorten later.
Bdthemag: You have the propensity to avoid questions when they are asked of you. I want to know why you used such a poor excuse.LAAAAAAAAAAAAAZY. Don't you suspect anyone else? Don't you want a read on anyone else? Even if you're questioning Bd at the same time, I hardly think he's going to be a major drain on your time and attention, what with the lurking and all.
sorry. I dont think I was helping town much anyways though.The point is more to learn how to be useful than to actually do it, so I wouldn't worry much on that note. As long as you've gotten a little better, mission accomplished.
Post by: Vector on August 05, 2011, 06:07:24 pm
Temporarily, Urist McInternetUser.
Post by: Simple on August 05, 2011, 06:23:09 pm
If there is no one in line before me, I'll jump in.My brain will probably explode from trying to remember which of the two urists is which but at
Speaking of urists : Urist Mcinternetuser is scum. For starters he inherited quite a bit of my early suspicions of scriver. Urist starts with bullshit attack (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2485240#msg2485240) (that i overlooked due to replacement chaos back then) on jc that he then uses as shield for not answering his target questions.What's stranger his subsequent post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2486665#msg2486665) makes it clear that this case isn't even convincing enough to say he's scum, just "doubt". Then he notices that he's acting to strange and says he will do more questioning just because Irony advice. What's strange he doesn't question jc , i guess if he was really suspicious of him he would go after him directly rather than looking for support (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2489064#msg2489064).Then he uses his weak case from the begging to again reassure us that jc is scum (why he lifted the vote then ? To make himself look better of course). Well back to the original plan then (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2496349#msg2496349) ! Then he becomes strangely agitated about bd scumminess. Also he states that his default alignment is town ,maybe it's my imagination but wouldn't scum must default everybody else alignment as town just because they know it ? Then he goes for using somebody else arguments for his own goals. Not so long he comes back (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2504713#msg2504713) and again the same thing: "I must question him more! BD defend yourself! No question for jc!". Overall it's either plain stubbornness or scum play, i think it's the latter option.
Also:
Flandre Votes are very important why not use yours ? Or at least directly say who you would like to see lynched ?
Post by: Simple on August 05, 2011, 06:28:45 pm
Post by: Vector on August 05, 2011, 06:31:24 pm
At this point, I'd be happy with a lynch on InternetUser and finishing off my argument with Webadict tomorrow, provided that both of us are alive. A D1 this long is going to kill the town.
On the other hand, more time is generally not too bad, so I'll get back on that argument soon enough--need a little Friday break. Right now, I really want some content from that Urist, anyway.
Post by: Max White on August 05, 2011, 06:39:01 pm
Simple: As a general rule, we don't count the weekends in gameplay time, because a lot of people don't get on during the weekend. If there seems to be a general consensus that extending until Monday is too long, I will shorten it.
Post by: Reverie on August 05, 2011, 07:23:15 pm
You are right; I need to stop being so linear.Bdthemag: You have the propensity to avoid questions when they are asked of you. I want to know why you used such a poor excuse.LAAAAAAAAAAAAAZY. Don't you suspect anyone else? Don't you want a read on anyone else? Even if you're questioning Bd at the same time, I hardly think he's going to be a major drain on your time and attention, what with the lurking and all.
Urist: Who are your current suspects? Also, between Vector and Webadict, which do you believe to be town, and why?
Webadict: What in Vector's playstyle, exactly, is giving her away as scum to you? You claim that you would bet an arm that she is scum, while I remained unconvinced. What does scum Vector do that Town Vector does not?
Also:I need to do my homework on Urist if I am to throw accusations at him without jumping onto the bandwagon. Lately he has come across as slightly suspicious, sure, but I do not want to lynch him yet. Webadict's taunt post at Vector made me second guess my town read on him, but I have nothing specific to attack him with. I have no read on IronyOwl, no reason to suspect billybob, and town reads on you and Vector.
Flandre Votes are very important why not use yours ? Or at least directly say who you would like to see lynched ?
If you want to know who I want to lynch, it is almost exclusively Bd, but I will need to look into Urist to know for sure.
Post by: Vector on August 05, 2011, 07:26:42 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 05, 2011, 07:57:48 pm
Flandre, don't assume that one must be town and the other scum, or even that either of us is town.The more time wears on, the more your argument with him convinces me that you two are of opposing alignments. I contradict myself, though, because you both still look like townies to me.
Just to let you know, I have play with the idea that you told Wubs how much you hated him in scumchat after all--but that thought was fleeting.
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 05, 2011, 08:32:59 pm
@Everyone You guys like bringing up that I use other peoples arguments, but you don't consider that I wasn't there in the rvs where I could start digging at people without reference to their previous answers.
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 05, 2011, 08:43:07 pm
@Simple I never said that I was sure Flandre is town, what I said was
I think Flandre is probably town.
Post by: Vector on August 05, 2011, 08:44:17 pm
@Flandre I am leaning towards Vector, and since my referencing of other's arguments seems to piss everyone off, I will not post any reason.
You quoted an entire wall of text I had written and said "this."
Referencing others' arguments without making your own is a problem. Saying I am scum for no reason is also a problem. Quoting a wall with no other analysis is a problem.
You want my vote off of you? Put your vote where your mouth is and come hunt me down. Right now, you're just convincing me more and more that you're scum.
Post by: Reverie on August 05, 2011, 09:05:07 pm
Vector, he just said that he believes you to be town over Wuba.@Flandre I am leaning towards Vector, and since my referencing of other's arguments seems to piss everyone off, I will not post any reason.
You quoted an entire wall of text I had written and said "this."
Referencing others' arguments without making your own is a problem. Saying I am scum for no reason is also a problem. Quoting a wall with no other analysis is a problem.
You want my vote off of you? Put your vote where your mouth is and come hunt me down. Right now, you're just convincing me more and more that you're scum.
These were the questions I asked him:
Urist: Who are your current suspects? Also, between Vector and Webadict, which do you believe to be town, and why?
Post by: Vector on August 05, 2011, 09:09:04 pm
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 05, 2011, 09:14:07 pm
@Bdthemag Who do you think the scum are? Why were you so defensive early on in this game? And why did you you disappear afterward?
Post by: Reverie on August 05, 2011, 09:32:42 pm
@Flandre My current suspect is bdthemag, but the only things I have against him are his strange reactions to other people's scumhunting questions, and his lurkiness ever since.I think the purpose of that interrogation you just sent out was more to reinforce your answer than to gather intel on Bd, Urist.
@Bdthemag Who do you think the scum are? Why were you so defensive early on in this game? And why did you you disappear afterward?
Post by: webadict on August 05, 2011, 09:37:22 pm
Webadict: What in Vector's playstyle, exactly, is giving her away as scum to you? You claim that you would bet an arm that she is scum, while I remained unconvinced. What does scum Vector do that Town Vector does not?Scum Vector goes from 0 to Hulk in about .3 seconds, regardless of the situation. Town Vector maintains her rage for when people do not give answers that she is okay with.
That would be the main thing. After that, she's manipulating what I'm saying to fit her cause. She was activelurking. She was appealing to authority. She was regular lurking, though she may have just been busy. She was slow to start.
Need I list more? I suppose I could find more.
@Flandre My current suspect is bdthemag, but the only things I have against him are his strange reactions to other people's scumhunting questions, and his lurkiness ever since.I admire your attempt to combat lurking with lurking, and your asking of RVS questions despite having LONG AGO left it. I can hardly drown myself in your pool of hard work.
@Bdthemag Who do you think the scum are? Why were you so defensive early on in this game? And why did you you disappear afterward?
Flandre, don't assume that one must be town and the other scum, or even that either of us is town.She is right about this, though I realize she forgot to mention the possibility that both of us might be Town (since she's still stuck in the mind frame of scum, you see.)
Post by: Vector on August 05, 2011, 09:41:06 pm
Stop bending my words. I can only think that you're more and more full of bullshit.
I will try to address the rest of your crap later.
Post by: webadict on August 05, 2011, 09:49:26 pm
That was supposed to be covered under the first part of that clause. You know, the "don't assume that one is town and the other scum" thing. "Don't assume we're different alignments. Don't even assume we're both town."I'm sure you will.
Stop bending my words. I can only think that you're more and more full of bullshit.
I will try to address the rest of your crap later.
Post by: Max White on August 05, 2011, 09:52:34 pm
As we now have two players named Urist, to make things clear could you all either refer to them by their full names, or their last names.
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 05, 2011, 09:52:43 pm
@Flandre I'm trying to interrogate bd, I'm starting off with those questions, and once I get his answers I will continue to question him.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 05, 2011, 10:05:25 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on August 05, 2011, 10:21:46 pm
... Okay, then he didn't answer the question of "who are your current suspects," and I still think he's scum.Problem: What you said was still completely relevant:
Referencing others' arguments without making your own is a problem. Saying I amWhy did you abandon it to jump to "not answering questions, scum for that instead?"scumtown for no reason is also a problem. Quoting a wall with no other analysis is a problem.
That was supposed to be covered under the first part of that clause. You know, the "don't assume that one is town and the other scum" thing. "Don't assume we're different alignments. Don't even assume we're both town."I'm also curious why exactly you're so enraged at him. I've been meaning to reread your interactions, but if you'd like to present a clearer or simpler version, or just restate it again, please feel free.
Stop bending my words. I can only think that you're more and more full of bullshit.
I will try to address the rest of your crap later.
@Webadict I never got to have a rvs, I don't know what questions to ask, I have never played this before, so now that I'm trying to question bd, without relying on others posts, and I get criticized.You're not understanding the problem.
You can use others' posts. You can look at them, read through them, quote them to prove a point, etc. There's nothing saying you can't use other people's posts.
What you cannot do is throw someone else's post up, with no explanation, as an answer or accusation or something. It's like the difference between including quotes in an essay, and grabbing an essay and putting your name on it. Want to quote Sun Tzu in explaining why such-and-such is a good idea? That's fine. Want to hand someone a copy of The Art of War and claim it's your opinion? Not okay. There has to be your clear reasoning in there, or it's not a real answer.
As for questions, you need to ask some that let you get inside Bd's head. And frankly, you should be focusing on more than just Bd- there's room to ask other people stuff too. Your questions, while potentially valid, aren't likely to dig very deep. Asking him for his scumpicks is fine. Asking him a broad question about subjective behavior is less good. Asking him why he's lurking is probably not going to do anything.
Instead, look for specific, concrete things. Instead of saying "who do you suspect," consider looking through his post history to see who he's said he suspects- and if/how much/why those opinions might have changed, or how seldom he mentioned who he suspected, or something like that. Instead of asking "why so defensive," look for specific examples and point them out. Those are concrete, individual things you can look at and ask him about, that might yield interesting insight as opposed to a halfassed list or claims that he's new or something.
Good call. It's not necessarily true, but it's definitely the kind of distinction you need to watch out for.@Flandre My current suspect is bdthemag, but the only things I have against him are his strange reactions to other people's scumhunting questions, and his lurkiness ever since.I think the purpose of that interrogation you just sent out was more to reinforce your answer than to gather intel on Bd, Urist.
@Bdthemag Who do you think the scum are? Why were you so defensive early on in this game? And why did you you disappear afterward?
this is my very first mafia game anywhere, ever, but I'm excited. I've been doing some reading and have read most of this thread already, but I'm posting from my phone at work. I will list my scumpicks and opening remarks and questions in a few hours when I get home.Good, good. We look forward to it.
Post by: Vector on August 05, 2011, 11:43:21 pm
As for why I'm pissed at Webadict, I think he's scum and if I don't go full-bore for as long as humanly possible, there's no way I'm possibly going to be able to hang him. It's partially utility.
It's also partially because I feel like he's actively mocking me because he knows he can get away with it and still have everyone and their pet cow listen to him. And the sticking crap in my mouth to discredit me, etc., etc. At first, it was just a worried feeling, but now I'm starting to feel more and more sure of myself.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 06, 2011, 01:28:46 am
- Webadict
- Vector
- Urist McInternetuser
- Bdthemag
- billybobfred
- Flandre, Simple (tie)
[/list]
@Webadict: You're scum. Period, end of quote. It's probably not wise for a green-as-a-blade-of-grass newbie like me to gun for you, but I can't sit by and watch after spending 30 pages reading up on your behavior. You walk in here like King Shit, and it seems all you've done since the moment you arrived is be abrasive and try to rile up Vector. At first I assumed this was your unique brand of scum-hunting, but what scumhunting have you done? You made a passing remark about Urist McInternetuser being Vector's scumbuddy, but never pursued it. In fact, all you've done is question Vector's picks (after criticizing the hell out of her play to that point) while declaring two people should not be lynched today, then proceeded to toss out two non-Vector votes before quickly moving them back onto her.
A whole day. A whole, entire, DAY and all you've done is pick and prod Vector, relentlessly. This is not scumhunting; you barely even glanced at anyone else. I know you're a better player than to have such drastic tunnel vision. Why is no one else worthy of more than a passing glance? Early on, you made it clear you knew Vector was scum. Why haven't you scoped out other targets? Why aren't you hunting for her partner while you hold your vote on her? You've bragged about your scummy behavior to boot. One that sticks out to me is:
...And, oh yeah, it pretty much is chainlynching. Got any problems with that? I could even do a "lynch me, then lynch Vector" one if you want. I mean, you might as well try to get rid of me now. Passive attacks are just so unbecoming...
This could be a throwaway remark intended to rattle Vector's cage, but I don't think so now. You've bragged about pulling "every scumtell in the book", and this just feels like you're waving your plans in her face to infuriate her. Get her lynched, she flips town, NK a useful Townie, then when we all realize you played us on Day 2, your scumbuddy quietly busses you and learns a valuable lesson about manipulation before NKing the Townie you suggest in your last scumchat. Day 3 begins with THREE (arguably the best three) Townies dead, and your scumbuddy lost in the confusion after two days were spent entirely poring over you and Vector. Nice tactic, but I know it's not your only one. Plus, your OMGUS move (claiming "inb4" doesn't change the truth). You mocked Vector for having only one vote from you and how laughable a threat that would be, then IMMEDIATELY change your vote to her in retaliation for her FIRST vote on you (I might add that you voted her long before she voted you, so you're the only one OMGUSing here). It's not a smoking gun, but it seems a bit too scummy to ignore.
Also, that bit recently about Vector being scum because she gave advice about assumptions and IC roles? Scum move. Vector's job, like yours, is to educate here first and win second. You know that, and you know pointing this fact out doesn't help her AT ALL as either town or scum, since it invites investigation upon her. If she's town, it draws attention away from scum (bad for town); if she's scum, it draws attention onto her (bad for scum). You jumped on it as another chance to poke her, and try to convince everyone she's scum. You're not investigating, you're drawing things out, misleading and manipulating, and you're relentlessly attacking one person to the exclusion of all others. Your weak, quickly-changed votes on Flandre and BD don't count; you never intended to lynch them anyway. But you're not just scum, you're dangerous scum. I'm betting you're the strongest scum player in this game, and that means YOU need to go first, so they can flail and screw up without your guidance. Every second you stay is another chance to salvage their mistakes and keep them moving towards victory. We can lynch your buddy later, but you have to go now. You're a danger to town, and I won't ignore you so readily. Vote Webadict.
@Vector: You were, for a long time, a solid Townie in my books. I figured you had to be, until you said:
Flandre, don't assume that one must be town and the other scum, or even that either of us is town.
Before you start, I'm not calling that a scumtell. You were town in my books because I was positive Weba was scum, and there was only ONE IC scum, so you had to be Town by default. If it's possible for you both to be scum, I'm definitely suspicious of you.
You played soft at first, even you admit that. Now, you've gotten bogged down in this war with Weba, and although I'll credit you with some scumhunting, you seem a little too easily distracted by his remarks. What really gets me though, is your vote changed to Urist. Why, why, why would you do that? If Weba is such an obvious scum, and as you said you need to go full-bore to hang him and get us to see what's so, WHY would you shift your focus and pressure onto Urist? I'm not saying Urist is a poor choice, I just don't see how ANY choice is as important as Webadict. We've had a long first day, and focus is waning. Why would you jump ship so soon, instead of trying to solidify a case and get the distraction out of the way? It just seems like a bad move, Town wise. I had some more points, but I'm coming off a 14 hour shift and going onto a 16 hour one soon, so I'm having trouble remembering. Rest assured, I'll bring it up when I do.
@Urist McInternetuser: Simple outlined a strong case that I agreed with, but I'll bring up some other points.
@Webadict I never got to have a rvs, I don't know what questions to ask, I have never played this before, so now that I'm trying to question bd, without relying on others posts, and I get criticized.
This is bullshit. I lectured Flandre about the 30 pages bit, and while it may have been a bit rude, it goes even more so for you. You didn't miss rvs, you just didn't get to personally lob a bunch of softball questions and probe everyone. It was done for you; reread it, make some conclusions, and get running. Then, reread any other posts for the persons you suspect, and stay abreast of the topic; you'll start getting some suspicions, even if they're wrong. RVS isn't where you find scum, it's where you establish a baseline. None of the easy questions in RVS help or hinder scum, so asking more here is, at best, a pointless waste of time (and at worst, it's a scum tactic meant to delay and confuse). It's a terrible excuse for doing fourth-rate scumhunting, and if you were a more experienced player I'd say you knew better. Maybe you didn't before, but considering I'm not the first calling you out for it, you do now.
Also, saying you don't know what questions to ask means you're not paying attention. If you'd been watching people, you'd have concerns and suspicions you could voice. I may be completely up in the night in my remarks to Vector and Webadict, but I still had remarks. You're either a crummy town player, or you're deliberately trying to coast along and stay out of sight. That's not helping find scum, it is scummy behavior, and it's why a bandwagon is forming for you. If I didn't think I had a more important choice, I'd be voting you too. If you're town, get your act together before we mislynch.
Nextly: Bdthemag, I want to know why you stopped testing out Webadict's defenses. You were the one pointing out contradictions and hypocrisies, and demanding some answers. It was a good start to scumhunting and gave me the idea that he might be scum instead of a rude townie. Why did you stop? I didn't see anything convincing from Webadict personally: just some remarks to the effect of "Yes, I'm contradicting myself and being a hypocrite. Anyway, I'm going to continue that now,"
If you had questions about them before, wouldn't his dismissive and dodgy replies set off some alarm bells for you? I'd say yes. Why didn't it? Furthermore, WHERE are you? If you're legitimately busy, then tell us so we know. If you're not, why are you staying clear of the end of the day? Are you trying to avoid a scumtell with your voting, and thus want to claim innocence at the outset of Day 2?
Just an FYI for tomorrow, as said I'll be working ALL DAY; I cannot post in-depth replies from my phone, and it has cookies enabled so I may appear logged in even when I am not able to post. I will not lurk the day away. If I can answer you with a short sentence I will; otherwise expect another wall of text tomorrow night. Sorry; I'm off Mondays so those will be the best day for me to keep to more normal-length posts.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 06, 2011, 01:37:47 am
I'm sure you understand.
Post by: Vector on August 06, 2011, 02:01:08 am
I will get back to Webadict tomorrow. Today is Friday, the end of a busy school week (example: I had an examination yesterday and an essay due on Monday), and I am too tired to be helpful at much else than bothering the other Urist. The vote on Urist really was supposed to be there only in the case of not getting an extension, but before I could change it back he'd posted more scummy shit and I figured I might as well use my remaining energy to work him over.
Frankly, while I'm writing my case on Webadict, I really want to be awake for it, not falling asleep in my chair.
As for why he distracts me and pisses me off so much, we've had a feud going for two years now, ever since my first game here. The first Beginner's Mafia. I used to actually refuse to sign up for games he was playing. Now we just end up trying to light each other on rhetorical fire every so often.
... I'll also admit that I have a bit of a temper.
Also, just to be clear, no one should make any assumptions about the alignment distributions of the ICs. We can have any combination of alignments.
Post by: webadict on August 06, 2011, 10:11:15 am
- Finally, someone that tries!
Alright, here's my scumlist as it stands:Hard to argue with "period", isn't it? Let's see what you've got. I shall be amused while reading for once.. You're scum, and I'll get to you in a moment.
- Webadict
. You could be scum too, and I'll likewise get to you in a moment.
- Vector
Suffice to say I'm agreeing with the arguments made by your bandwagon, but not enough to join. We've got bigger fish to fry. Little more on you later to make sure people know I have my own reasons.
- Urist McInternetuser
. You're lurking and avoiding questions. It's scummy behavior, but again, we have better targets to go for at the moment.
- Bdthemag
. I haven't heard much from you, and you seem lurky, but I'll admit I do a poor job of tracking activity when it's not blatant. I'll be watching you, but you're not really reading scum to me.
- billybobfred
. You two seem the least scummy so far; I will say this though, Flandre. You said you need to do more research on Urist? Hurry. It's been 30 pages since day one started, we need to start casting votes. Right now I'll believe you're just taking time to make a good vote, but if that behavior keeps up, I will have to re-evaluate if you're being overcautious or deliberately slowing the Town down.
- Flandre, Simple (tie)
[/list]
@Webadict: You're scum. Period, end of quote. It's probably not wise for a green-as-a-blade-of-grass newbie like me to gun for you, but I can't sit by and watch after spending 30 pages reading up on your behavior. You walk in here like King Shit, and it seems all you've done since the moment you arrived is be abrasive and try to rile up Vector. At first I assumed this was your unique brand of scum-hunting, but what scumhunting have you done? You made a passing remark about Urist McInternetuser being Vector's scumbuddy, but never pursued it. In fact, all you've done is question Vector's picks (after criticizing the hell out of her play to that point) while declaring two people should not be lynched today, then proceeded to toss out two non-Vector votes before quickly moving them back onto her.I don't see why this wouldn't be "wise," except for the fact that I am, on all accounts, Town. Which means you're obviously reading the wrong parts.
Let's see what you didn't read first... Oh right! Perhaps you realize that there's this thing called "dead men tell no tales"? Well, the reason I'm pushing Vector around is to get the most information out of her before she dies as possible. I don't think there were two non-Vector votes. There was only Flandre, and I had already provided rationale for that, but as I can see you skip over all the things you read, I'll have to explain it again and hope you don't jump over this part: I was voting Flandre in an attempt to see how Vector would craft an argument on her. I had two other suspicions, and if you couldn't tell, Vector has jumped onto both of them.
And yes, I did criticize her play. Do you have a reason why I shouldn't?
A whole day. A whole, entire, DAY and all you've done is pick and prod Vector, relentlessly. This is not scumhunting; you barely even glanced at anyone else. I know you're a better player than to have such drastic tunnel vision. Why is no one else worthy of more than a passing glance? Early on, you made it clear you knew Vector was scum. Why haven't you scoped out other targets? Why aren't you hunting for her partner while you hold your vote on her? You've bragged about your scummy behavior to boot.And yet I have two suspicions, oddly enough. I don't think you've even taken a look at what I said. I believe I said, "Vector is scum." During this time I have been analyzing her arguments toward people I suspect to be her scumpartner. These people have been Flandre and Urist, who you will notice as the people that Vector has voted. Why you seem to think I'm "not glancing at anyone" is beyond me, since I've decided on who NOT to lynch, and therefore there would be no need to focus on them. I mean, let me ask you this: "Why aren't you focusing on Flandre?" Dur, because you don't think she's scum! Wow, this might be a new concept to you, but people actually have logical thought processes!
So, why would it make sense for me to know who BOTH scum are? I know how Vector plays well, so if I know she's scum, I will follow it to the ends of the Earth. Anyone she goes after will be judged as to the severity of the attack.
One that sticks out to me is:Um... You have just severely misread a quote. Maybe you're not a native speaker, but in English, it usually goes from left to right. So, when it says "lynch me, then lynch Vector," I BELIEVE that means lynch me FIRST, and then lynch Vector SECOND. Do you get how that works? Maybe you just don't understand how time relates itself to the universe?...And, oh yeah, it pretty much is chainlynching. Got any problems with that? I could even do a "lynch me, then lynch Vector" one if you want. I mean, you might as well try to get rid of me now. Passive attacks are just so unbecoming...
This could be a throwaway remark intended to rattle Vector's cage, but I don't think so now. You've bragged about pulling "every scumtell in the book", and this just feels like you're waving your plans in her face to infuriate her. Get her lynched, she flips town, NK a useful Townie, then when we all realize you played us on Day 2, your scumbuddy quietly busses you and learns a valuable lesson about manipulation before NKing the Townie you suggest in your last scumchat. Day 3 begins with THREE (arguably the best three) Townies dead, and your scumbuddy lost in the confusion after two days were spent entirely poring over you and Vector. Nice tactic, but I know it's not your only one. Plus, your OMGUS move (claiming "inb4" doesn't change the truth). You mocked Vector for having only one vote from you and how laughable a threat that would be, then IMMEDIATELY change your vote to her in retaliation for her FIRST vote on you (I might add that you voted her long before she voted you, so you're the only one OMGUSing here). It's not a smoking gun, but it seems a bit too scummy to ignore.
Let's break this down into such a trivial parts that you couldn't POSSIBLY mess up how it goes.
The chainlynching thing? That was to make Vector mad. She was making a passive attack on what I was doing by "setting up multiple lynches," which isn't true, as I consider each individual lynch its own lynch. There was no either-or in there except for the debate over whether to choose Flandre or InternetUser, but that was to be saved for the next day (though I don't believe Flandre to be the likely partner anymore, which you would have read had you actually read anything.)
Then I said that I could "lynch me, then Vector" to taunt Vector a second time. Perhaps you didn't read the part after that, where I said that "you might as well get rid of me now." Because my plan works sooooooo well if I'm scum! Shoot! How will I lynch Vector now?!?
I can't tell if you think I have an IQ below 20, if you're just really stupid, or if you're doing this on purpose.
Also, that bit recently about Vector being scum because she gave advice about assumptions and IC roles? Scum move. Vector's job, like yours, is to educate here first and win second. You know that, and you know pointing this fact out doesn't help her AT ALL as either town or scum, since it invites investigation upon her. If she's town, it draws attention away from scum (bad for town); if she's scum, it draws attention onto her (bad for scum). You jumped on it as another chance to poke her, and try to convince everyone she's scum. You're not investigating, you're drawing things out, misleading and manipulating, and you're relentlessly attacking one person to the exclusion of all others. Your weak, quickly-changed votes on Flandre and BD don't count; you never intended to lynch them anyway. But you're not just scum, you're dangerous scum. I'm betting you're the strongest scum player in this game, and that means YOU need to go first, so they can flail and screw up without your guidance. Every second you stay is another chance to salvage their mistakes and keep them moving towards victory. We can lynch your buddy later, but you have to go now. You're a danger to town, and I won't ignore you so readily. Vote Webadict.Again, I applaud your effort to misread the situation and jump over the important parts. Maybe I didn't explain this well, but I did that exact thing as scum IC. It IS a "no harsh feelings" post. QQ about it some more, but THAT'S what I would've done in her shoes as scum. Also, thanks for repeating the same ol' things.
And if I were scum, your bet would probably be right. But, let's take a hypothetical stroll down scum Webadict lane. If I were scum, do you think I WOULDN'T be allowed to help my partner in scum chat? Do you think that there ISN'T a scum IC in there already? Do you honestly believe that being scum involves making an enemy out of Vector, especially when she would have thought nothing of me had I not pursued her? I mean, if you want to play the worst scum in the world, sure, you've just screwed yourself over. Scum play logically, too. They don't do things because scum wouldn't UNLESS it helps them achieve their goal. Think logically for a second.
So, congratulations on misreading everything important. I've enjoyed it.
Post by: Reverie on August 06, 2011, 10:28:59 am
@Flandre My current suspect is bdthemag, but the only things I have against him are his strange reactions to other people's scumhunting questions, and his lurkiness ever since.Urist McInternetuser: You said yourself that you have insufficient evidence against Bdthemag, and although your suspicion of him is long-standing, you red-vote him right as you tell me this? You could have done this anytime else, and it would not have seemed scummy and convenient for you, like it does here. These questions are hardly abrasive enough to be attached to a red-vote, and because of this, there is an obvious mismatch in the severity of your attack. But then again, your last request of him was to simply defend himself against his would-be lynchers, making yourself look like you were scum-hunting.
@Bdthemag Who do you think the scum are? Why were you so defensive early on in this game? And why did you you disappear afterward?
@Flandre I'm trying to interrogate bd, I'm starting off with those questions, and once I get his answers I will continue to question him.No, I think that you know Bdthemag to be town, began faux-interrogating him to fortify your lie, and only intend to worm your way out of the argument whilst not stepping on any toes.
Post by: Reverie on August 06, 2011, 12:54:42 pm
Bdthemag - He's completelty lazy but i have the feeling he just don't care about being lynched or scum victory either. That bascially makes him completely useless but gives us no insight on his real goals. I guess i was to inclined to judge him basing on his attitiude than his actions. Praising billybob case on him based only on length of his post is riddicoulous though.Also dropping by just to say extend twice in a row is annoying as hell.After reading into this, I notice that you indirectly hint at Bdthemag being town. Can you elaborate on why you think he doesn't care for a scum victory, or being lynched?
Vector:
As for why I'm pissed at Webadict, I think he's scum and if I don't go full-bore for as long as humanly possible, there's no way I'm possibly going to be able to hang him. It's partially utility.Would you consider Urist Mcinternetuser and myself to have prevented you from going full-bore on Webadict for as long as you interrogated us?
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 06, 2011, 02:39:05 pm
By the way, english is my first language. I misread that line, and severely fucked up an argument. Disregard that portion. I'll respond further after work.
Post by: Vector on August 06, 2011, 03:17:10 pm
Would you consider Urist Mcinternetuser and myself to have prevented you from going full-bore on Webadict for as long as you interrogated us?
First I was defending myself from Webadict and attacking you, which made the question irrelevant because I hadn't figured he was scum yet.
Then I was too tired to attack Webadict but happened to have my vote on Mr.Internet, so I attacked him.
So, no. The first instance was due to lack of apparent need, and the second instance due to physical/mental exhaustion. I fully intend to keep questioning people as necessary while I'm working over Webadict.
Post by: Bdthemag on August 06, 2011, 03:29:41 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 06, 2011, 05:09:03 pm
I fully intend to keep questioning people as necessary while I'm working over Webadict.Sorry for the poor question... This is what I was looking for, though. Thank you much!
Post by: Max White on August 06, 2011, 05:48:39 pm
Bdthemag[2]: billybobfred, Urist Mcinternetuser
Urist_McArathos[1]: Bdthemag
Vector[1]: webadict
Urist Mcinternetuser[3]: IronyOwl, Simple, Flandre
webadict[2]: Urist_McArathos, Vector
The day will end Monday, 7:00 PM Central time. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Post by: Simple on August 06, 2011, 06:12:40 pm
Just finished reading everythng.Apparently arguing about semantics what we need right now. If you confirm that few times, never say a word that would make us think you feel otherwise i don't think adding way to make it meaningless is important. And
@Simple I never said that I was sure Flandre is town, what I said wasI think Flandre is probably town.
-snip-Woah, not expected that wall of text.I'm not sure where rage in webadict case ends but few questions anyway: One IC scum only ? Even if it were true (it isn't) why you assume one of them must be scum ? At the beginning of your post you say that vector could be scum but later you emphasize that these are only suspicions, why ? And i guess even if these are not all, you started from the most serious ones ?
Webadict:: Could you expand on the "she would have thought nothing of me had I not pursued her?" part ? Because i don't feel like situation like we have now would be very bad if you were scum, maybe a little risky but in my opinion it's not something i would call completely unreasonable scum move.
Simple:Maybe saying he's town is bit too much, his behavior is still incriminating but after reading bit of his previous game i believe he just plays like this regardless of alignment ( i know this is meta argument that's not worth much but it makes sense to me). Besides he never even tried to go into vector/webadict front which i believe he would jump right away as scum. Or that's the scummy plan of non-interference,and that's why i can't rule him out completely so only the weight of his tells dropped.Bdthemag - He's completelty lazy but i have the feeling he just don't care about being lynched or scum victory either. That bascially makes him completely useless but gives us no insight on his real goals. I guess i was to inclined to judge him basing on his attitiude than his actions. Praising billybob case on him based only on length of his post is riddicoulous though.Also dropping by just to say extend twice in a row is annoying as hell.After reading into this, I notice that you indirectly hint at Bdthemag being town. Can you elaborate on why you think he doesn't care for a scum victory, or being lynched?
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 06, 2011, 07:50:48 pm
@Simple: Why do you say that my initial attack on jc was bullshit? Also you brought up when I said "make me doubt him", I meant "I think he is scum", it's just the way I talk. And part of the reason I unvoted jc, was because I read Webadict's posts about jc just being an idiot town, which made me think "oh maybe he's right", afterward, I felt that jc seemed to ease off of bdthemag to easily after attacking him the whole game, so I voted for him. Then I re-read the whole thread and realized that jc is probably just a stupid townie, and that his enemy bdthemag, was much more suspicious so I began to attack him. And you say that I looked to you for reinforcement, when I was simply asking your opinion of him, as you had been attacking him on the previous page. Also, while I don't assume everyone is scum, I don't assume they are town either, I wait until their actions read eitherway.
Post by: Reverie on August 06, 2011, 09:09:42 pm
Maybe saying he's town is bit too much, his behavior is still incriminating but after reading bit of his previous game i believe he just plays like this regardless of alignment ( i know this is meta argument that's not worth much but it makes sense to me). Besides he never even tried to go into vector/webadict front which i believe he would jump right away as scum. Or that's the scummy plan of non-interference,and that's why i can't rule him out completely so only the weight of his tells dropped.Bd can't intervene if he is never on. His lack of activity can be considered scummy, sure, but it is not a solid case (due to the ease with which he could lay blame on real-world circumstances).
@Flandre: Ever since I have joined I have been criticized for not questioning people enough, and now that I think bd is scum, and I begin to question him, you say that I'm not questioning him, but rather reinforcing my argument.Are you telling me that you only now believe that Bd is scum? Where did you cross the line from being suspicious to being so sure? If I am not mistaken, Bd has not said much of anything since your last request of him to defend himself. To top it off, your questions are far too passive for that pretty red box you put them in.
It is simple, really. You red-voted to allay our suspicion, and ask questions of Bd that he could surely answer in his sleep. He would not bother with an OMGUS if he hardly had to lift a finger, right?
Bdthemag: You popped into the thread just long enough to vote for an extension, because you knew that chances were good that you were to going to be lynched. Why did you not offer anything to protect yourself when you posted that?
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 07, 2011, 01:02:34 am
First up, Webadict.
I don't see why this wouldn't be "wise," except for the fact that I am, on all accounts, Town. Which means you're obviously reading the wrong parts.
You may claim that you're Town, but I am clearly inclined to disagree. I said it may be unwise since I'm trading points with a vastly more experienced player, not because scumhunting is unwise. I'm sure I have misread some things. I'd love for you to clear them up for me; if I'm hunting the wrong player, no time like the present to inform me of that and get to hunting the real scum, right? Let's see what you said...
Quote
Let's see what you didn't read first... Oh right! Perhaps you realize that there's this thing called "dead men tell no tales"? Well, the reason I'm pushing Vector around is to get the most information out of her before she dies as possible. I don't think there were two non-Vector votes. There was only Flandre, and I had already provided rationale for that, but as I can see you skip over all the things you read, I'll have to explain it again and hope you don't jump over this part: I was voting Flandre in an attempt to see how Vector would craft an argument on her. I had two other suspicions, and if you couldn't tell, Vector has jumped onto both of them.
No, there were two votes. You voted for Bdthemag because "he was the scummiest". You then changed your vote right back to Vector once the extension went through, AFTER quoting JC and saying you should have voted him instead. When pressed for details on what changed your mind about JC, you dismissed it with the comment "I don't even think you know what you're asking anymore".
This was RIGHT AFTER IronyOwl made it clear that votes should be considered lynch votes. You moved to lynch Bd (someone who you started with "we shouldn't lynch today), specifically because you wanted to avoid a tie. So much for now wanting him lynched, though I doubt it was a sincere effort; you did vote for an extension. Why risk it though? What if the extension had failed? You never explained why you wanted Bd lynched beyond "he's scummy"; I think you're scummy too, but I at least am offering my reasons, however laughable and outrageous you may find them. Then you declare JC even scummier (despite being certain he was town, your own words on the matter), but vote instead for Vector.
So, you clearly also forgot this whole thing happened. Why would you be so careless with your votes? You've only voted for three people, and five times. It's not much, but you can't even remember all of them? Lynch votes are not something to flippantly toss about, unless you're scum and don't really care about the hunt. Yeah, it's a lame, obvious scumtell, I know. True scum wouldn't do something so blatantly stupid because it's illogical, right? Don't worry, I won't call it a scumtell. But you know what?
...considering that I've done almost every scumtell in the book and STILL haven't even received a vote...
I don't really have to, do I? You know what you're doing, and I think you know you're good enough to get away with it.
Quote
And yes, I did criticize her play. Do you have a reason why I shouldn't?
Not at all; if you'd read my response to Vector, I agreed this was a valid point; hell, even she agreed with your criticisms. I'm not defending Vector here, she is after all my number two pick. I just don't have as heavy a case against her, for my own noobish reasons (which I'll cover in a bit, in response to Simple).
Quote
And yet I have two suspicions, oddly enough. I don't think you've even taken a look at what I said. I believe I said, "Vector is scum." During this time I have been analyzing her arguments toward people I suspect to be her scumpartner. These people have been Flandre and Urist, who you will notice as the people that Vector has voted. Why you seem to think I'm "not glancing at anyone" is beyond me, since I've decided on who NOT to lynch, and therefore there would be no need to focus on them. I mean, let me ask you this: "Why aren't you focusing on Flandre?" Dur, because you don't think she's scum! Wow, this might be a new concept to you, but people actually have logical thought processes!
So, why would it make sense for me to know who BOTH scum are? I know how Vector plays well, so if I know she's scum, I will follow it to the ends of the Earth. Anyone she goes after will be judged as to the severity of the attack.
I have taken a look at what you said. You said it's bad practice to build teams, but you're doing it anyway because you can't lynch Vector. Why not? Why can't you try to lynch Vector, especially if you're so certain you have her scumpartners figured out?
What bothers me isn't that nobody else is on your radar (I acknowledged that you fingered Urist Mcinternetuser as a potential buddy, if you'd remember), but that you're not bothering to ask THEM any questions or hunt them in any form. Your entire strategy revolves around harassing Vector until you can find her connections? It doesn't seem like scumhunting, it seems like single-minded harassing. Why not question Urist, or Flandre, or anyone else you consider to be scum? Especially if they're newbies, aren't they more likely to crack than someone who is just as familiar with your style and methods as you are hers? Why can't you do it the other way? Remember, I'm not attacking your refusal to interrogate the people you think are Town, I'm critiquing your refusal to question any of your so-called scumpicks except one. This one also happens to be your most vocal (and until I showed up ONLY) opponent.
I left out the bit about the chainlynching; I already admitted I misread that line and built an entire point and attack around it. It looked terrible, and I'm thoroughly embarrassed by it. Rookie mistake, not double checking my words and yours before hitting "Post". I'll try not to let it happen again.
Quote
Again, I applaud your effort to misread the situation and jump over the important parts. Maybe I didn't explain this well, but I did that exact thing as scum IC. It IS a "no harsh feelings" post. QQ about it some more, but THAT'S what I would've done in her shoes as scum. Also, thanks for repeating the same ol' things.
Here's where you have it wrong: You're referring to THIS (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2505287#msg2505287) post of Vector's. Meanwhile, the one I was referring to was...
Flandre, don't assume that one must be town and the other scum, or even that either of us is town.
A simple tip, which you did confirm was accurate (which, to be fair, was a nice move as an IC), but not without taking a pot-shot at Vector.
That's my point: making us aware that any of you three could be scum (or even all of you, though I find that unlikely) had ZERO tactical advantages. Yet you used it as just another chance to pick at her, and tried to twist it to make her look scummy. No one's QQing about her little comforting remark, I'm pointing out that you seem determined to use every, EVERY possible weapon against her. Why are you so determined and so certain, despite having done relatively nothing besides antagonize her?
Quote
And if I were scum, your bet would probably be right. But, let's take a hypothetical stroll down scum Webadict lane. If I were scum, do you think I WOULDN'T be allowed to help my partner in scum chat? Do you think that there ISN'T a scum IC in there already? Do you honestly believe that being scum involves making an enemy out of Vector, especially when she would have thought nothing of me had I not pursued her? I mean, if you want to play the worst scum in the world, sure, you've just screwed yourself over. Scum play logically, too. They don't do things because scum wouldn't UNLESS it helps them achieve their goal. Think logically for a second.
So, congratulations on misreading everything important. I've enjoyed it.
That bit about attacking Vector seems off; why would Vector think nothing of you? If (and we're assuming this purely for the sake of argument, since we're taking that stroll down scum Webadict lane after all) she's Town, she has no reason to believe you can't be scum, and just as much reason to suspect you as anyone else. More, in fact, since you're a cunning and experienced player who will be VERY hard for the newbs to sniff out on their own. Do you really believe that you are so minor a presence here that you can be readily ignored without consequences, ESPECIALLY by those who don't know your true alignment?
Now, I'll admit I don't know what a "no harsh feelings" post is, that's why I wasn't referring to it. I'm not deliberately arguing from ignorance, I'm trying to confront you with the holes, flaws, and contradictions that have led me to believe you're scum (and there's a LOT of them).
Of course I believe there is a scum IC right now; I believe there's at least two of you (you and LNCP), and I know you can use scum chat to help each other. Yes, I believe being scum means taking out the Town ICs that have the best chance of identifying you, and if you're scum you know whether or not Vector is (and if she's not, best to get rid of her before she can build a case against you). The other option that I've seriously considered is that you two are scumbuddies and this is an elaborate bussing. Maybe that seems a bit too obvious, but maybe you feel you can pull it off in a room full of newbies, especially with the last IC (that would be IronyOwl) focused elsewhere. Or hell, maybe Irony's your scumbuddy too and is helping keep us in the dark.
I don't know, that's why I'm not voting for them or building teams. I'm hunting scum one by one, and you're my number one. I'm not going to blow a lynch vote on a newbie scumbuddy (or a less likely IC suspect) when a more experienced mafia can be taken out instead. If you're really Town, now's the time to start teaching me where I'm screwing up and start giving me a reason to trust you instead of suspect you.
@Simple:
Yeah, sorry for the walls. To be fair, I had a LOT to sift through over the course of day one (we're not even done and we're at 34 pages), and my biggest target was also one of the less questioned ones. I wanted to make a strong case, since I knew Webadict would be VERY capable of defending himself; no point in voting him if I don't bring my A-game, however sorry it may be. Plus, like I said, I can only be around once a day on work days, except for very VERY small posts if I get a break. My posts may have to be somewhat wall-like, unfortunately. I'll try to be more concise, I can be longwinded.
I may not have been clear before, so let me explain: No, I never said I currently believed there is one IC scum only. I made the mistake of assuming that there could not be more than one because the rules forbade it; before I was subbed in, Vector and Webadict explained that there is no guaranteed number of IC scum; it could be all three, it could be NONE of them. I then said I suspected Vector as well. So, no, I am actually of the opinion that there are at least two IC scum (I doubt it's one), possibly even three (but I doubt this too, more so than only one).
All I have are suspicions; it's the same with Webadict. I don't have proof, after all. I suspect Weba more, but I do have a lot of doubts about Vector. I need to craft my case against Vector (and take a long hard look at IronyOwl just out of principle), but I acknowledge that I made the mistake of assuming there would only be one IC scum and I was caught a bit unprepared to present a case against two or three. Thank god for that, my initial scumpick post would have been WAY too damned long if it had my entire case against Vector AND my remarks on Irony all at once.
I'm not sure I understand the last part's meaning:
...And i guess even if these are not all, you started from the most serious ones ?
Please explain what you're asking me a bit more clearly, I will gladly give you an answer.
Urist Mcinternetuser
Your reply to Flandre never addressed WHY you think Bd is scum. In fact, you've whined about how others are attacking you, and how it's not fair that one time you're not asking questions, then you're asking the wrong ones...why are you not presenting a case? Do you have a case against Bdthemag? If not, why are you voting him before he has answered your questions?
It's not that I think Bd is town and you're looking for a smokescreen, by the way. I'm actually getting a growing suspicion of him myself, but I'll be damned if I give you some clues. I want to know why you think he's scum, why you think he's the most LIKELY scum of everyone here, and why you think he's tactically the best one to lynch. If you don't have a reason to lynch him that you can at least try to spell out (and it goes beyond vague remarks like "scummy behavior" or "lurking"), then it just seems like you're voting him to appear town.
Post by: Vector on August 07, 2011, 01:08:25 am
Thus, at least one IC of the three must be town.
Post by: Reverie on August 07, 2011, 04:03:10 am
Sorry folks, i've had only access to a phone. I'll get to posting later tonight.This was a lie, Bdthemag. You may have your reasons, but nevertheless, you have rescinded on your word.
Post by: Vector on August 07, 2011, 12:21:27 pm
Sorry folks, i've had only access to a phone. I'll get to posting later tonight.This was a lie, Bdthemag. You may have your reasons, but nevertheless, you have rescinded on your word.
Explain.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 07, 2011, 01:11:13 pm
Apologies.
Post by: Bdthemag on August 07, 2011, 01:43:28 pm
Post by: Vector on August 07, 2011, 01:45:44 pm
Did you lie about the phone posting, Bdthemag?
Post by: Reverie on August 07, 2011, 02:21:55 pm
He did not post last night, where he said he would. I was a little disappointed, and it was five in the morning, so I might have swung a little too hard at him. Sorry.Sorry folks, i've had only access to a phone. I'll get to posting later tonight.This was a lie, Bdthemag. You may have your reasons, but nevertheless, you have rescinded on your word.
Explain.
The grammar in the latter half of that last sentence has been bothering me all day, besides.
Post by: Vector on August 07, 2011, 02:23:31 pm
Yeeeeeah, all right. Don't accuse people of lying when they don't do what they say they're going to do right on time. Lurking, maybe. Putting things off, maybe. But the word "lie" is extremely charged in mafia games.
Post by: Reverie on August 07, 2011, 02:34:47 pm
. . .I will be careful with that word from now on.
Yeeeeeah, all right. Don't accuse people of lying when they don't do what they say they're going to do right on time. Lurking, maybe. Putting things off, maybe. But the word "lie" is extremely charged in mafia games.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 07, 2011, 08:13:01 pm
There's precisely two scum players in the game. That's the standard for newbie setups.
Thus, at least one IC of the three must be town.
I thought the "3/3" in the thread title meant there were three mafia, three of which were alive. My mistake, then.
Post by: Vector on August 07, 2011, 08:16:15 pm
We just happen to have been gifted Webadict.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 07, 2011, 08:17:56 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 07, 2011, 08:57:43 pm
On topic: It is perfect that you are off tomorrow, Urist. If we can get the majority of us in here, I think we can finally give the first day some closure!
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 07, 2011, 09:03:57 pm
Post by: webadict on August 08, 2011, 07:49:49 am
Okay, time to try a few replies...not much since I can see today was slow.I've got 10 minutes to write a reply, as I'm really tired and have to go to work, so I'll make it short. I'll give you a better reply later. Maybe lunch. Probably not.
First up, Webadict.I don't see why this wouldn't be "wise," except for the fact that I am, on all accounts, Town. Which means you're obviously reading the wrong parts.
You may claim that you're Town, but I am clearly inclined to disagree. I said it may be unwise since I'm trading points with a vastly more experienced player, not because scumhunting is unwise. I'm sure I have misread some things. I'd love for you to clear them up for me; if I'm hunting the wrong player, no time like the present to inform me of that and get to hunting the real scum, right? Let's see what you said...QuoteLet's see what you didn't read first... Oh right! Perhaps you realize that there's this thing called "dead men tell no tales"? Well, the reason I'm pushing Vector around is to get the most information out of her before she dies as possible. I don't think there were two non-Vector votes. There was only Flandre, and I had already provided rationale for that, but as I can see you skip over all the things you read, I'll have to explain it again and hope you don't jump over this part: I was voting Flandre in an attempt to see how Vector would craft an argument on her. I had two other suspicions, and if you couldn't tell, Vector has jumped onto both of them.
No, there were two votes. You voted for Bdthemag because "he was the scummiest". You then changed your vote right back to Vector once the extension went through, AFTER quoting JC and saying you should have voted him instead. When pressed for details on what changed your mind about JC, you dismissed it with the comment "I don't even think you know what you're asking anymore".
This was RIGHT AFTER IronyOwl made it clear that votes should be considered lynch votes. You moved to lynch Bd (someone who you started with "we shouldn't lynch today), specifically because you wanted to avoid a tie. So much for now wanting him lynched, though I doubt it was a sincere effort; you did vote for an extension. Why risk it though? What if the extension had failed? You never explained why you wanted Bd lynched beyond "he's scummy"; I think you're scummy too, but I at least am offering my reasons, however laughable and outrageous you may find them. Then you declare JC even scummier (despite being certain he was town, your own words on the matter), but vote instead for Vector.
So, you clearly also forgot this whole thing happened. Why would you be so careless with your votes? You've only voted for three people, and five times. It's not much, but you can't even remember all of them? Lynch votes are not something to flippantly toss about, unless you're scum and don't really care about the hunt. Yeah, it's a lame, obvious scumtell, I know. True scum wouldn't do something so blatantly stupid because it's illogical, right? Don't worry, I won't call it a scumtell. But you know what?...considering that I've done almost every scumtell in the book and STILL haven't even received a vote...
I don't really have to, do I? You know what you're doing, and I think you know you're good enough to get away with it.QuoteAnd yes, I did criticize her play. Do you have a reason why I shouldn't?
Not at all; if you'd read my response to Vector, I agreed this was a valid point; hell, even she agreed with your criticisms. I'm not defending Vector here, she is after all my number two pick. I just don't have as heavy a case against her, for my own noobish reasons (which I'll cover in a bit, in response to Simple).QuoteAnd yet I have two suspicions, oddly enough. I don't think you've even taken a look at what I said. I believe I said, "Vector is scum." During this time I have been analyzing her arguments toward people I suspect to be her scumpartner. These people have been Flandre and Urist, who you will notice as the people that Vector has voted. Why you seem to think I'm "not glancing at anyone" is beyond me, since I've decided on who NOT to lynch, and therefore there would be no need to focus on them. I mean, let me ask you this: "Why aren't you focusing on Flandre?" Dur, because you don't think she's scum! Wow, this might be a new concept to you, but people actually have logical thought processes!
So, why would it make sense for me to know who BOTH scum are? I know how Vector plays well, so if I know she's scum, I will follow it to the ends of the Earth. Anyone she goes after will be judged as to the severity of the attack.
I have taken a look at what you said. You said it's bad practice to build teams, but you're doing it anyway because you can't lynch Vector. Why not? Why can't you try to lynch Vector, especially if you're so certain you have her scumpartners figured out?
What bothers me isn't that nobody else is on your radar (I acknowledged that you fingered Urist Mcinternetuser as a potential buddy, if you'd remember), but that you're not bothering to ask THEM any questions or hunt them in any form. Your entire strategy revolves around harassing Vector until you can find her connections? It doesn't seem like scumhunting, it seems like single-minded harassing. Why not question Urist, or Flandre, or anyone else you consider to be scum? Especially if they're newbies, aren't they more likely to crack than someone who is just as familiar with your style and methods as you are hers? Why can't you do it the other way? Remember, I'm not attacking your refusal to interrogate the people you think are Town, I'm critiquing your refusal to question any of your so-called scumpicks except one. This one also happens to be your most vocal (and until I showed up ONLY) opponent.
I left out the bit about the chainlynching; I already admitted I misread that line and built an entire point and attack around it. It looked terrible, and I'm thoroughly embarrassed by it. Rookie mistake, not double checking my words and yours before hitting "Post". I'll try not to let it happen again.QuoteAgain, I applaud your effort to misread the situation and jump over the important parts. Maybe I didn't explain this well, but I did that exact thing as scum IC. It IS a "no harsh feelings" post. QQ about it some more, but THAT'S what I would've done in her shoes as scum. Also, thanks for repeating the same ol' things.
Here's where you have it wrong: You're referring to THIS (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2505287#msg2505287) post of Vector's. Meanwhile, the one I was referring to was...Flandre, don't assume that one must be town and the other scum, or even that either of us is town.
A simple tip, which you did confirm was accurate (which, to be fair, was a nice move as an IC), but not without taking a pot-shot at Vector.
That's my point: making us aware that any of you three could be scum (or even all of you, though I find that unlikely) had ZERO tactical advantages. Yet you used it as just another chance to pick at her, and tried to twist it to make her look scummy. No one's QQing about her little comforting remark, I'm pointing out that you seem determined to use every, EVERY possible weapon against her. Why are you so determined and so certain, despite having done relatively nothing besides antagonize her?QuoteAnd if I were scum, your bet would probably be right. But, let's take a hypothetical stroll down scum Webadict lane. If I were scum, do you think I WOULDN'T be allowed to help my partner in scum chat? Do you think that there ISN'T a scum IC in there already? Do you honestly believe that being scum involves making an enemy out of Vector, especially when she would have thought nothing of me had I not pursued her? I mean, if you want to play the worst scum in the world, sure, you've just screwed yourself over. Scum play logically, too. They don't do things because scum wouldn't UNLESS it helps them achieve their goal. Think logically for a second.
So, congratulations on misreading everything important. I've enjoyed it.
That bit about attacking Vector seems off; why would Vector think nothing of you? If (and we're assuming this purely for the sake of argument, since we're taking that stroll down scum Webadict lane after all) she's Town, she has no reason to believe you can't be scum, and just as much reason to suspect you as anyone else. More, in fact, since you're a cunning and experienced player who will be VERY hard for the newbs to sniff out on their own. Do you really believe that you are so minor a presence here that you can be readily ignored without consequences, ESPECIALLY by those who don't know your true alignment?
Now, I'll admit I don't know what a "no harsh feelings" post is, that's why I wasn't referring to it. I'm not deliberately arguing from ignorance, I'm trying to confront you with the holes, flaws, and contradictions that have led me to believe you're scum (and there's a LOT of them).
Of course I believe there is a scum IC right now; I believe there's at least two of you (you and LNCP), and I know you can use scum chat to help each other. Yes, I believe being scum means taking out the Town ICs that have the best chance of identifying you, and if you're scum you know whether or not Vector is (and if she's not, best to get rid of her before she can build a case against you). The other option that I've seriously considered is that you two are scumbuddies and this is an elaborate bussing. Maybe that seems a bit too obvious, but maybe you feel you can pull it off in a room full of newbies, especially with the last IC (that would be IronyOwl) focused elsewhere. Or hell, maybe Irony's your scumbuddy too and is helping keep us in the dark.
I don't know, that's why I'm not voting for them or building teams. I'm hunting scum one by one, and you're my number one. I'm not going to blow a lynch vote on a newbie scumbuddy (or a less likely IC suspect) when a more experienced mafia can be taken out instead. If you're really Town, now's the time to start teaching me where I'm screwing up and start giving me a reason to trust you instead of suspect you.
If you want to argue building teams, technically I'm gathering more information from a biased source. So, not exactly building teams, as I legitimately found those two to be scummy BEFORE looking at how Vector was arguing for their lynch.
And, as I have pointed out earlier, I have already cemented in my mind Vector's scummitude. She IS SCUM. Right now, you're acting like she's a baby and that she is so helpless to defend herself. And I've pointed out the many things she's done wrong.
As for tactical advantage, that's not necessarily true. You can make any scum move into a tactical advantage with the right words and the right twists.
I also applaud that you make going after Vector a lose-lose situation in your description. Nicely done!
So, in conclusion, the one "chainlynching" would probably be you, since if you get me lynched, I'll flip Town, and then you'll use what I said to lynch Vector. Just, you know, if you want to argue semantics.
Anyhow, got to work.
Post by: Reverie on August 08, 2011, 10:50:20 am
Post by: Think0028 on August 08, 2011, 12:28:25 pm
Bdthemag[2]: billybobfred, Urist Mcinternetuser
Urist_McArathos[1]: Bdthemag
Vector[1]: webadict
Urist Mcinternetuser[3]: IronyOwl, Simple, Flandre
webadict[2]: Urist_McArathos, Vector
The day will end TODAY, 7:00 PM Central time. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 08, 2011, 12:36:27 pm
I'm not saying Vector is defenseless; she doesn't need me white knighting for her, I know that much from what little I've read so far. I'm not denying she has a lot of scummy behavior to answer for (for the third time, she is my second pick, and if you're not scum I'm certain she is). I'm mostly skeptical about the way you're conducting your hunt: you seem more concerned with undermining one player than investigating, since you aren't really pressuring or investigating anyone else. I know you have some fairly good ideas about who else is scum, and I want to know why you're not investigating them as well, particularly since we're nearing the end of day one and a strong town player (which you claim to be, since you claim to be town and are objectively a strong player here) is a likely NK target to me. Dead men tell no tales indeed, and if you're town this might be your ONE day to help us find scum; why are you focused on only one person? Why is it not acceptable for you to question anyone else along with Vector?
Vector
Firstly, I'm hoping to see some action against Webadict, as you were referring to earlier. The weekend is generally slow, I get that, but now that you've had a chance to rest and it's a weekday, I think it's fair to expect you to do that working over you hinted at earlier.
I'm curious about your behavior thus far in the thread. Webadict called you out on being too quiet and passive, and you didn't really get moving until he started poking you. You were pretty tenacious, but I haven't heard much from you either in the ways of investigation or responses to Webadict since I jumped in and launched my case. Pretty much some brief responses from you in regards to simpler questions. It feels like you're fading back into the background while Webadict is distracted with me. What gives? Are you resting up (I recall you saying you wanted to take a break Friday after a busy week)? If so, when are you going to get back to work? The end of Day One is approaching rapidly, after all. It seems like a bad time for Town to go dark.
Bdthemag, I really want to ask you a few questions to clarify some odd things I've noticed about you, and I find it odd you refuse to be around for anything more than minimal posts. You still have me voted because you voted for JC, for instance. It seems like you're paying little attention to what's going on in here, and just want the day to coast to an end. Coupled with how you seemed to be lurking earlier, this almost completely silent behavior has me wondering if you're busy or just scum trying to fly under the radar. I can't say much though, since as I said, you're not here to question!
Billbobfred
Where are you? You were a lot more active earlier in the game, and you too seem to be a lot quieter recently.
MOD: Is that Central Standard Time like in the US (i.e., the time zone in Dallas)? Because I'm in CST and I noticed the other day Max White's countdown was off from my own time. I just want to know precisely when the day ends.
Post by: Think0028 on August 08, 2011, 12:37:55 pm
Post by: webadict on August 08, 2011, 12:42:50 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 08, 2011, 02:48:46 pm
Post by: lordnincompoop on August 08, 2011, 03:00:30 pm
Post by: Think0028 on August 08, 2011, 03:05:21 pm
Post by: Vector on August 08, 2011, 03:19:11 pm
Anyway, at this point I'm just going to vote Urist McInternetuser and be done with it. I'd like to do better by this game, but it's finals week in my German class and I don't have time to lead a one-woman assault on Mount Webadict.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 08, 2011, 03:32:00 pm
Just making sure I'm synced up properly.
Post by: Think0028 on August 08, 2011, 03:38:08 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 08, 2011, 03:47:54 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 08, 2011, 03:49:25 pm
Post by: billybobfred on August 08, 2011, 03:50:09 pm
... Yeah, I got nothing. This Day 1 is just getting too long, I think.
Post by: Reverie on August 08, 2011, 03:53:11 pm
*is poked*Oh, there you are. Are you still convinced that Bd is scum?
... Yeah, I got nothing. This Day 1 is just getting too long, I think.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 08, 2011, 04:04:38 pm
Also, you seem to be a natural at this, McArathos. Have you played anything similar to Mafia before?
:o
Uh...no, I actually thought I was playing like utter shit and that the three ICs were pounding their heads into their desks to vent their frustration at it.
I am an avid debater though. I actually got interested in Mafia because IRL I'm terrible at sniffing out an individual's true intentions, and have been manipulated and screwed over several times as a result. I figured this would be a fun way to both a) debate, and b) learn to tell when someone is trying to deceive me for their own ends.
Post by: Vector on August 08, 2011, 04:05:47 pm
Post by: Think0028 on August 08, 2011, 04:08:26 pm
Bdthemag[2]: billybobfred, Urist Mcinternetuser
Urist_McArathos[1]: Bdthemag
Vector[1]: webadict
Urist Mcinternetuser[4]: IronyOwl, Simple, Flandre, Vector
webadict[1]: Urist_McArathos
The day will end TODAY, 7:00 PM Central time. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Vector, you're the only person who changed your vote since I posted it this morning.
Post by: Vector on August 08, 2011, 04:09:04 pm
Post by: billybobfred on August 08, 2011, 04:13:40 pm
Oh, there you are. Are you still convinced that Bd is scum?Well, he hasn't done anything to address any of the things I said that make me think he's scum.
Like, zero. He's literally not even pretending to try.
Other people have been scummy, but nothing that catches my attention. I don't think the argument against McInternetuser is enough for me to switch my vote.
though that's not saying a lot since he already has the most votes
Post by: Simple on August 08, 2011, 04:14:56 pm
Urist McArathos: Don't get too ahead with planning the lynching that's one, and the second thing that bothers me : would you even consider possible NK in your day play ? I get the intention of what you said in last response to webadict but it's pretty ridiculous reason for me.
I already gave my suspicions. Vector and McInternetuser. After that, I've got nothing useful to add at the moment, since I can focus more with Vector gone.By Vector gone you mean what exactly ?
Post by: lordnincompoop on August 08, 2011, 04:16:11 pm
Toot toot I'm a flute.
Post by: Vector on August 08, 2011, 04:16:43 pm
Toot toot I'm a flute.
...
Excuse me?
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 08, 2011, 04:26:51 pm
Urist McArathos: Don't get too ahead with planning the lynching that's one, and the second thing that bothers me : would you even consider possible NK in your day play ? I get the intention of what you said in last response to webadict but it's pretty ridiculous reason for me.
I just felt that Webadict is not doing much to find scum; I feel his focus on Vector is detrimental to the hunt. The bottom line is, every night there is a decent chance we will have one less Townie, and Webadict could easily be it if he's Town as he so claims (I doubt it, but I have been wrong before according to rumor). It seems like poor play to focus exclusively on one target and one target only. He says he suspects others, but does little to investigate them.
Considering that it would take a dramatic swing in votes to save Urist Mcinternetuser, I guess we'll see soon enough if that's one scum. Sadly, he hasn't provided much in the way of information for us to pore over after his death (regardless of how he flips, it would have been useful).
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 08, 2011, 04:30:16 pm
Post by: IronyOwl on August 08, 2011, 04:35:52 pm
Uh...no, I actually thought I was playing like utter shit and that the three ICs were pounding their heads into their desks to vent their frustration at it.webadict's always like that. He's probably headdesking less at the fact that you're trying and making mistakes than at the fact that most people won't even try.
As for the lynch... dunno. Certainly not too sure about it, but not sure if we have any better targets. Have been sadly unable to get a more in-depth analysis.
Post by: Vector on August 08, 2011, 04:36:12 pm
But we're his scumpicks. That he is totally sure of.
Post by: webadict on August 08, 2011, 04:38:05 pm
WebadictAs long as you and Vector openly suspect me, then I'm positive the scum won't target me. Even if they do, though, I will be perfectly fine with that, as then whatever I have said has been said as confirmed Town.
I'm not saying Vector is defenseless; she doesn't need me white knighting for her, I know that much from what little I've read so far. I'm not denying she has a lot of scummy behavior to answer for (for the third time, she is my second pick, and if you're not scum I'm certain she is). I'm mostly skeptical about the way you're conducting your hunt: you seem more concerned with undermining one player than investigating, since you aren't really pressuring or investigating anyone else. I know you have some fairly good ideas about who else is scum, and I want to know why you're not investigating them as well, particularly since we're nearing the end of day one and a strong town player (which you claim to be, since you claim to be town and are objectively a strong player here) is a likely NK target to me. Dead men tell no tales indeed, and if you're town this might be your ONE day to help us find scum; why are you focused on only one person? Why is it not acceptable for you to question anyone else along with Vector?
So, if ANYONE was going to be killed, it would be you or IronyOwl. I mean, if I were the Doctor, I'd protect you. You may be wrong about your first suspect, but your second one is correct.
As for why I'm not investigating them, bogging myself down with multiple suspects would be pointless. My goal is to get Vector lynched, since I know she is scum. Whether you think I'm tunneling or not is up to you, but I am going to make sure she gets lynched eventually.
QQ some more. If people would lynch Vector and just LISTEN for once, you'd have a won game. I've provided plenty of examples and reasoning. I obviously DO NOT NEED TO DO ANYTHING MORE TO FIND SCUM, SINCE VECTOR IS SCUM. She has done nothing to prove otherwise, and I WILL VOTE VECTOR EVERY DAY UNTIL SHE IS LYNCHED. Okay?Urist McArathos: Don't get too ahead with planning the lynching that's one, and the second thing that bothers me : would you even consider possible NK in your day play ? I get the intention of what you said in last response to webadict but it's pretty ridiculous reason for me.
I just felt that Webadict is not doing much to find scum; I feel his focus on Vector is detrimental to the hunt. The bottom line is, every night there is a decent chance we will have one less Townie, and Webadict could easily be it if he's Town as he so claims (I doubt it, but I have been wrong before according to rumor). It seems like poor play to focus exclusively on one target and one target only. He says he suspects others, but does little to investigate them.
Considering that it would take a dramatic swing in votes to save Urist Mcinternetuser, I guess we'll see soon enough if that's one scum. Sadly, he hasn't provided much in the way of information for us to pore over after his death (regardless of how he flips, it would have been useful).
Anything else you would like to complain about? Call me stubborn. I don't care. I want her dead first.
Also, I am in no need of protection, as I would rather be killed tonight to prove I am Town. This should be a no-brainer for you, Doc.
So webadict claims that he possibly sacrificing a town for a scum? If he is scum and knows we're both town, that is a brilliant tactic to lynch two townies, and with a nightkill win him thegame.???
What?
Post by: billybobfred on August 08, 2011, 04:45:26 pm
QQ some more. If people would lynch Vector and just LISTEN for once, you'd have a won game. I've provided plenty of examples and reasoning. I obviously DO NOT NEED TO DO ANYTHING MORE TO FIND SCUM, SINCE VECTOR IS SCUM. She has done nothing to prove otherwise, and I WILL VOTE VECTOR EVERY DAY UNTIL SHE IS LYNCHED. Okay?Damn, you're obnoxious, webadict. I know this is your strategy, but I just can't help but think "man he sure is acting like saying things louder makes them more true".
Post by: webadict on August 08, 2011, 04:49:07 pm
I know I wanted bd lynched before, but he's clearly not getting killed today, so.I'm glad your strategy of vote-the-loud-guy is clearly providing you with the ability to come up with terrible reasoning. I mean, I can't help but think "man he sure isn't trying".QQ some more. If people would lynch Vector and just LISTEN for once, you'd have a won game. I've provided plenty of examples and reasoning. I obviously DO NOT NEED TO DO ANYTHING MORE TO FIND SCUM, SINCE VECTOR IS SCUM. She has done nothing to prove otherwise, and I WILL VOTE VECTOR EVERY DAY UNTIL SHE IS LYNCHED. Okay?Damn, you're obnoxious, webadict. I know this is your strategy, but I just can't help but think "man he sure is acting like saying things louder makes them more true".
Post by: Simple on August 08, 2011, 04:56:35 pm
So webadict claims that he possibly sacrificing a town for a scum? If he is scum and knows we're both town, that is a brilliant tactic to lynch two townies, and with a nightkill win him thegame.Wait, you have just that to say ? You're not defending just throwing wifom-lined theories ? At least it's directed, so i hope you really are scum.
Webadict: You got my vote for tomorrow. Wait, that sounds stupid. I don't know if i'm just gullible but you made me think you're town right here.
I know I wanted bd lynched before, but he's clearly not getting killed today, so.Just tell the rest of the scum team to kill him... Or convince us that it's good idea to lynch him ? I guess you should try one of these before giving up.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 08, 2011, 04:59:15 pm
You do give a fairly convincing reason for not being a NK target, I'll give you that. However, since your likelihood of being NKed wasn't part of my case against you, it does nothing to convince me you're town either (not that you implied that, just saying it).
Care to explain why you'd protect me as the Doctor? I can't see how I'm a better choice than anyone else here, honestly.
QQ some more. If people would lynch Vector and just LISTEN for once, you'd have a won game. I've provided plenty of examples and reasoning. I obviously DO NOT NEED TO DO ANYTHING MORE TO FIND SCUM, SINCE VECTOR IS SCUM. She has done nothing to prove otherwise, and I WILL VOTE VECTOR EVERY DAY UNTIL SHE IS LYNCHED. Okay?
Anything else you would like to complain about? Call me stubborn. I don't care. I want her dead first.
Also, I am in no need of protection, as I would rather be killed tonight to prove I am Town. This should be a no-brainer for you, Doc.
Yeah, yeah, and if more people would listen to me, you'd be lynched and we'd be close to a won game as well. I'm not asking you to change your vote; I've asked questions of other people. Be as stubborn as you like, I'm certainly being as tenacious with you. I have a problem with not interrogating your other picks in the meanwhile; I suppose this is going to be a circular argument that goes nowhere, though.
ME: Ask somebody else questions!
YOU: I don't need to, I know who I want to lynch!
ME: Fine, then try to lynch her and focus on finding the next target!
YOU: I will, once she's lynched!
ME: But in the meanwhile, you could "Ask somebody else questions!"
Repeat until we both go insane.
So webadict claims that he possibly sacrificing a town for a scum? If he is scum and knows we're both town, that is a brilliant tactic to lynch two townies, and with a nightkill win him thegame.
Yeah, I don't understand this at all either.
I know I wanted bd lynched before, but he's clearly not getting killed today, so.
...webadict...
Webadict isn't getting killed today either. Care to explain your vote change? I clearly agree he's the scummiest bunch of scum that ever scummed, but I have reasons beyond his behavior. What makes you think he's scum instead of a rude, loud townie?
Post by: Reverie on August 08, 2011, 05:00:18 pm
Post by: billybobfred on August 08, 2011, 05:03:35 pm
I'm glad your strategy of vote-the-loud-guy is clearly providing you with the ability to come up with terrible reasoning. I mean, I can't help but think "man he sure isn't trying".
I take it you want reasoning? Well, here it is.
You explicitly said that, having determined that Vector is scum, you don't need to do any more scumhunting.
But you forget, there are two.
Or maybe you don't. After all, scum don't think of "the two scum" in the game, they think of "the other scum".
Webadict isn't getting killed today either. Care to explain your vote change? I clearly agree he's the scummiest bunch of scum that ever scummed, but I have reasons beyond his behavior. What makes you think he's scum instead of a rude, loud townie?
Conveniently, that also addresses your post. That and all the scumtells he went around deliberately committing just so he could taunt us for them later. Remember that post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2505345#msg2505345)?
Just tell the rest of the scum team to kill him... Or convince us that it's good idea to lynch him ? I guess you should try one of these before giving up.
Eh, to be honest, I'm not all that sure about bd anymore. I haven't finished many games, but in all two of them, the scum didn't get found out by being lurky.
Post by: webadict on August 08, 2011, 05:19:00 pm
WebadictOh, no, that wasn't for you. I was WIFOMing the scum. Clearly, I want them to think what they think I'm making them think, which would hopefully make them choose wrong. Metagame, beside the point.
You do give a fairly convincing reason for not being a NK target, I'll give you that. However, since your likelihood of being NKed wasn't part of my case against you, it does nothing to convince me you're town either (not that you implied that, just saying it).
Care to explain why you'd protect me as the Doctor? I can't see how I'm a better choice than anyone else here, honestly.
As for why you? Because you're able to write things. Duh. Plus I've already written you off as Town.
Oooo, close, except for not really. I don't need to question anyone. If I'm going to find someone scummy, I'll find them scummy my own way. You act like asking people questions is going to get you the right answers. Hahaha. That hardly ever works. The trick is to read their tone.QQ some more. If people would lynch Vector and just LISTEN for once, you'd have a won game. I've provided plenty of examples and reasoning. I obviously DO NOT NEED TO DO ANYTHING MORE TO FIND SCUM, SINCE VECTOR IS SCUM. She has done nothing to prove otherwise, and I WILL VOTE VECTOR EVERY DAY UNTIL SHE IS LYNCHED. Okay?
Anything else you would like to complain about? Call me stubborn. I don't care. I want her dead first.
Also, I am in no need of protection, as I would rather be killed tonight to prove I am Town. This should be a no-brainer for you, Doc.
Yeah, yeah, and if more people would listen to me, you'd be lynched and we'd be close to a won game as well. I'm not asking you to change your vote; I've asked questions of other people. Be as stubborn as you like, I'm certainly being as tenacious with you. I have a problem with not interrogating your other picks in the meanwhile; I suppose this is going to be a circular argument that goes nowhere, though.
ME: Ask somebody else questions!Joke's on you. I have a high resistance to insanity.
YOU: I don't need to, I know who I want to lynch!
ME: Fine, then try to lynch her and focus on finding the next target!
YOU: I will, once she's lynched!
ME: But in the meanwhile, you could "Ask somebody else questions!"
Repeat until we both go insane.
I take it you want reasoning? Well, here it is.lololol. You think I don't know how scum think? Do you know who I am?
You explicitly said that, having determined that Vector is scum, you don't need to do any more scumhunting.
But you forget, there are two.
Or maybe you don't. After all, scum don't think of "the two scum" in the game, they think of "the other scum".
One, I believe you're missing the fact that I've stated a suspicion of McInternetuser. So, I've just destroyed your second point with a bit of obviousness. As an addendum to that fail of a reason, I believe you're thinking of searching for third parties as scum. THAT'S what scum do more often. That doesn't quite work in a game with no third parties.
Second, I have gotten more on Vector than you have done all game. For you to say that I need to do MORE is outright hilarious.
Webadict isn't getting killed today either. Care to explain your vote change? I clearly agree he's the scummiest bunch of scum that ever scummed, but I have reasons beyond his behavior. What makes you think he's scum instead of a rude, loud townie?
Conveniently, that also addresses your post. That and all the scumtells he went around deliberately committing just so he could taunt us for them later. Remember that post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2505345#msg2505345)?Just tell the rest of the scum team to kill him... Or convince us that it's good idea to lynch him ? I guess you should try one of these before giving up.
Eh, to be honest, I'm not all that sure about bd anymore. I haven't finished many games, but in all two of them, the scum didn't get found out by being lurky.
Post by: webadict on August 08, 2011, 05:19:32 pm
Oh well.
Post by: billybobfred on August 08, 2011, 05:29:46 pm
lololol. You think I don't know how scum think? Do you know who I am?Kinda? I don't think you're stupid enough that you only realized what you were doing when I explained it.
You've "stated a suspicion" of McInternetuser? Fine, but you still said "Vector IS scum therefore I do not need to hunt more scum". It betrays a certain state of mind, even coming from someone who knows how scum think.
And no, I'm not stupid enough to see "looking for a third party" and use it as a scumtell in a game where everyone knows for a fact that there are no third parties. (I didn't even know that was a scumtell until just now!)
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 08, 2011, 05:36:12 pm
I'm not exactly expecting people to suddenly go "You got me, coppa! I'm scum, see? Nyah, see!? NYAAAAAAH!"
I'm hunting scum using my tactic, which is asking them questions and reading their answers for suspicious behavior.
If that's not "reading their tone", then you'll have to explain to me what you mean.
Post by: Vector on August 08, 2011, 05:37:04 pm
lololol. You think I don't know how scum think? Do you know who I am?
Excuse me.
What were you saying about appeals to authority, asshole?
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 08, 2011, 05:49:45 pm
lololol. You think I don't know how scum think? Do you know who I am?
"Do you know who I am!? He must not know who I am..."
(http://i658.photobucket.com/albums/uu306/Toro_Blanco/juggernaut_bitch.jpg)
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 08, 2011, 05:54:51 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 08, 2011, 05:57:55 pm
I meant to have that pic outside the quote; cursed Mafia no-edit rules prevent me from changing it. It was not a comment on Vector.I was about to say.
Post by: Reverie on August 08, 2011, 06:02:26 pm
So webadict claims that he possibly sacrificing a town for a scum? If he is scum and knows we're both town, that is a brilliant tactic to lynch two townies, and with a nightkill win him thegame.Please tell me you did not just say this and leave, Urist. No one even knows what you were trying to say...
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 08, 2011, 06:04:43 pm
So webadict claims that he possibly sacrificing a town for a scum? If he is scum and knows we're both town, that is a brilliant tactic to lynch two townies, and with a nightkill win him thegame.Please tell me you did not just say this and leave, Urist. No one even knows what you were trying to say...
I for one don't know what the hell you're doing, Internetuser. You're an HOUR from being lynched; I hope for our sake you ARE scum, because I'm going to be pissed if we mislynch you and you frittered away your defense on lurking and making a single, convoluted and confusing statement.
Post by: Reverie on August 08, 2011, 06:14:12 pm
I think I broke him.So webadict claims that he possibly sacrificing a town for a scum? If he is scum and knows we're both town, that is a brilliant tactic to lynch two townies, and with a nightkill win him thegame.Please tell me you did not just say this and leave, Urist. No one even knows what you were trying to say...
I for one don't know what the hell you're doing, Internetuser. You're an HOUR from being lynched; I hope for our sake you ARE scum, because I'm going to be pissed if we mislynch you and you frittered away your defense on lurking and making a single, convoluted and confusing statement.
Post by: webadict on August 08, 2011, 06:15:34 pm
Won't asking questions of people give more chances to read their tone?Perhaps. But, I've never been a fan of those questions.
I'm not exactly expecting people to suddenly go "You got me, coppa! I'm scum, see? Nyah, see!? NYAAAAAAH!"
I'm hunting scum using my tactic, which is asking them questions and reading their answers for suspicious behavior.
If that's not "reading their tone", then you'll have to explain to me what you mean.
And no. Their tone is completely different from behavior. Their tone is the intent behind their behaviors. Their rationale, so to speak. Justifications could work, but that assumes I'm going to ask a bajillion questions about one thing. Pester me all you like, you're obnoxiousness won't encourage me to find anyone else but Vector. There's no need to, really.
Jesus. If I want to learn more, I'll learn more. I currently have neither want nor need to do as such, so I won't. Wasting your vote on me isn't going to change that, as I know I'm right. If I decide I'm not, I'll be sure to let you know, and then I'll be free to let you in on my new suspect. Because that's how I intend to continue playing. One step at a time.
That you do them. Please learn to read. Thank you.lololol. You think I don't know how scum think? Do you know who I am?
Excuse me.
What were you saying about appeals to authority, asshole?
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 08, 2011, 06:19:36 pm
@Webadict:
I don't consider it a wasted vote any more than you consider yours wasted. If that's how you want to play, fine. I personally find your style, combined with the points I've brought up already, sufficient proof you are scum. I'll leave my vote on you to pressure you to convince me you're town, or to get you lynched like the scum you are if you don't.
In the meanwhile, I have some scum to hunt, but the day is almost over and we'll have to see how the night goes first before I refine my list; I considered Urist a good candidate, so how he flips will determine a lot.
Post by: Reverie on August 08, 2011, 06:54:12 pm
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 08, 2011, 06:57:48 pm
Post by: billybobfred on August 08, 2011, 07:00:35 pm
It's been explained enough why you should defend yourself that you really should know it by now.
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 08, 2011, 07:01:03 pm
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 08, 2011, 07:01:42 pm
Post by: Think0028 on August 08, 2011, 07:02:35 pm
Day One is over!
Debate. Debate. Debate. None of you had been trained for this. You were supposed to be simple watchmen, standing guard and fighting against open enemies, not stabbing at shadows. But now you have been given a task, to root out traitors and kill them.
There exists only one way to tell if someone is truly a servant of Chaos or not. When slain, the evil forces they possess visibly escape from their bodies and fly back to their master. In death, all is made clear.
For hours that feel like weeks, the debate goes on. Tempers flare, friendships break, accusations fly... even if the traitors are found, the damage may already be done. In the end, there is only one suspect that the group can agree on: Urist Mcinternetuser.
"No! How could it be me? I have only just arrived!", he pleads.
"How do we know you didn't come from the vile Caverns of Chaos, traitor?!" shouts Flandre. Simple, nodding furiously, moves to corner Mcinternetuser with Flandre.
"I am tired of this," proclaims Vector. "Let us kill him and be done with it." She draws her knife and walks over to Mcinternetuser, who begins to panic and draws his sword...
At which point he falls over dead, IronyOwl's knife in his back.
Violently, his body erupts in dark shadow. The shade flies through a nearby window. Seems he had sworn himself to the Dark Lord Nincompoop after all.
At least for today, there is some small victory. For now, it is time to retire, and hope the night passes peacefully.
Urist Mcinternetuser, Mafia Roleblocker, has been lynched!
Scum, power roles, lend me your night actions via PM.
Post by: Think0028 on August 09, 2011, 07:22:01 pm
A long, restless night passes. Who could be the terrible traitor willing to kill their own friends and allies for some nefarious purpose? Will they get desperate now that Mcinternetuser has been slain?
As you wake, you find that one of your number is missing. Where is Webadict?
After some searching, you discover. There is Webadict. And there. And there. And there. And a little bit there too.
It seems that the traitor is getting desperate indeed, and is now beginning to kill the soldiers during the night. The only thing to do is to find them and kill them.
Webadict, Town, has been killed!
Not voting: Vector, IronyOwl, Urist_McArathos, Bdthemag, Flandre, Billybobfred, Simple
Post by: Reverie on August 09, 2011, 07:32:36 pm
Post by: billybobfred on August 09, 2011, 07:35:05 pm
you cannot read nightkills. Period. Don't try, don't think about it, etc.
Just saying.
Post by: Reverie on August 09, 2011, 07:36:13 pm
Post by: Bdthemag on August 09, 2011, 07:37:33 pm
Flandre Why exactely do you want to assume Vector is town just because you suspect that she wouldn't do something?
Post by: Simple on August 09, 2011, 07:41:52 pm
Mod There's only one special role or the second mafia member can be a godfather ?
Post by: billybobfred on August 09, 2011, 07:42:37 pm
So yes, the second scum can be a godfather.
Post by: jc6036 on August 09, 2011, 07:43:46 pm
Post by: Max White on August 09, 2011, 07:44:55 pm
Mod There's only one special role or the second mafia member can be a godfather ?There may or may not be a godfather in the game. There is a 50% chance of one, reguardless of other roles.
Post by: Darvi on August 09, 2011, 07:47:14 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 09, 2011, 07:49:04 pm
Sorry for the absence, i've been busy as hell the past few day's.I did say that it was an instinctive assumption, Bdthemag. Since Vector was voting for Wuba prior to his death, I highly doubted she would have night-killed him. It sounds silly now that it is out of my mouth, but there it is.
Flandre Why exactely do you want to assume Vector is town just because you suspect that she wouldn't do something?
Post by: Max White on August 09, 2011, 07:49:47 pm
You did 50/50? I had 33/67 :V
There is a 50% chance for any of these roles to show up. It is possible to end up with no extra roles.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 09, 2011, 07:52:07 pm
Quite correct.you cannot read nightkills. Period. Don't try, don't think about it, etc.
Just saying.
If Vector is scum, she might have killed webadict because she felt he was too good a scumhunter to leave alive. Or because she knew he'd continue pressuring her. Or because she was concerned he might be too convincing to let live. Or because she knew it'd look too ballsy to be true if she went on and on about how he was scum and then had him flip town. Or because she was genuinely enraged at him and let that override more nuanced concerns.
If someone else is scum, they might have killed webadict because they felt he was too good a scumhunter to leave alive. Or because they knew he'd continue pressing someone else. Or because they were concerned about leaving such a convincing townie alive. Or because they knew it might look bad for Vector to have her go on and on about how he was scum and then have him flip town. Or even because they wanted it to look like Vector was relying on WIFOM to make it look like she would never have done such a bad-looking move, meaning she did.
The bottom line is, there's way too many possibilities to draw conclusions from the nightkill without some serious backup evidence giving it direction.
More later. It's a brand new day, so let the scumhunting commence.
Post by: webadict on August 09, 2011, 07:54:23 pm
See ya later, guys.
Post by: Vector on August 09, 2011, 07:56:10 pm
On the other hand, this is pretty much the best possible nightkill, because it saves town a lynch.
(Logic:
I was going to lynch Webadict at all costs today, including taking his bet. He would have flipped town. Then, either
a. I get killed
b. I don't get killed but WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM
In any case, it speeds up the game I see it and we get another free day of scumhunting)
Hmmm... need to reread!
Post by: IronyOwl on August 09, 2011, 07:57:49 pm
Thanks for killing me, scum! P.S. Not a Cop or a Doctor :PRemember, you can still offer IC wisdom. Like a friendly ghost who can't be bothered to just possess the hero and go kick ass himself.
See ya later, guys.
Post by: webadict on August 09, 2011, 07:59:12 pm
I feel too biased at this point to make any comments, but if I see anything, can do.Thanks for killing me, scum! P.S. Not a Cop or a Doctor :PRemember, you can still offer IC wisdom. Like a friendly ghost who can't be bothered to just possess the hero and go kick ass himself.
See ya later, guys.
Post by: billybobfred on August 09, 2011, 08:07:56 pm
b. I don't get killed but WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM
I'm not entirely clear what you mean by that. Explain plz?
Post by: Reverie on August 09, 2011, 08:10:54 pm
She censored what would have been a WIFOM argument that read into the night-kill. I think.b. I don't get killed but WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM
I'm not entirely clear what you mean by that. Explain plz?
Post by: Vector on August 09, 2011, 08:15:07 pm
Post by: billybobfred on August 09, 2011, 08:32:21 pm
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 09, 2011, 09:14:47 pm
Let's see...My number one vote is NKed, my number three lynched, and number two is rife with WIFOM arguments based on this aftermath.
Hmm...it could be that the scum did this in a sloppy attempt to frame somebody, but that seems a little too obvious, even for a newbie. Webadict's investigation only pointed to Vector and Urist, and Urist is already dead, and Vector is...iffy to investigate, given that we could go round and round about whether or not she would NK Weba after their fighting Day One.
Bdthemag, I want some answers from you. You have been damned quiet throughout day one, and now you kick off day 2 with a poorly reasoned vote against Flandre. You spent the late end of day one absent except for an extension, and a complete lack of defense OR voting strategy. I'm still annoyed that, with Day One as heated as it was, you didn't bother to ask any questions or do anything except pop in for an exception, conveniently timed when things looked grim for you. Oh, and who was it that pointed that out at first? Flandre, I believe. Webadict was a strong, strong Town player who wasn't reading you, but Flandre was. You seem awfully quick to jump on her this early in day one. Is it because she detects the potent air of scum about you?
TL;DR you coasted and flew under the radar throughout day one, didn't seem to give two shits about your votes, and have voted for the only person to suspect you with only the flimsiest of pretexts.
My main question for you: Why is Flandre scum to you? Is it seriously because she thought NKing Webadict was too obvious a move for Scum Vector? Because to me, that's the worst reason imaginable. It's WIFOM certainly, but not a scumtell.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 09, 2011, 09:17:11 pm
Fuck, SERIOUSLY?!
On the other hand, this is pretty much the best possible nightkill, because it saves town a lynch.
(Logic:
I was going to lynch Webadict at all costs today...
Agreed. I would have been right there with you, and that would have been a tremendous waste of time. We still would have lost Weba, but an entire day of hunting to boot.
Post by: jc6036 on August 09, 2011, 09:45:05 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 09, 2011, 10:11:22 pm
Here is a snide remark (my personal favorite):
There, happy?
And here is a defusing statement and a couple of excuses that you have offered:
Jesus christ im missing alot of questions.
Excuse me if that made no sense, im really tired.
Simple I wasn't aware you asked me any questions, it just seemed like you were commenting on my post's.
Excuse me if I missed any questions, im tired as hell currently.
Here are some points you have not responded to.
I brought this one up twice:
Bdthemag:Jc: Excuse me for my "terrible questions", this is a beginners game after all.How many games have you been a part of before you joined this one? It had to be several games, if you have gained notoriety as a lurker.
Here is Urist's attempt at wriggling out of my grasp. They were questions addressed to you, nonetheless:
@Bdthemag Who do you think the scum are? Why were you so defensive early on in this game? And why did you you disappear afterward?
Post by: Vector on August 10, 2011, 12:09:13 am
We've had some serious problems with this in the past.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 10, 2011, 12:48:01 am
No kibitzing from non-ICs, please.
We've had some serious problems with this in the past.
Kibitzing?
Post by: jc6036 on August 10, 2011, 01:29:26 am
Post by: Simple on August 10, 2011, 04:01:31 pm
IronyOwl: You were pretty passive D1 but when you acted it all was bit strange how often it was connected with scriver/kilakan/urist actions. . He was also strangely looking for your support few times. This itself wouldn't be enoug to make you my prime suspect but every time you pointed out his mistakes you ended at simple remark where everyone else mistakes you pointed out were followed by some questioning. I belive you were the person who attacked urist the least. Any conclusions from urist flip ?
Billbobfred : You voted webadict at the end of the day when it was obvious that bd who you were voting won't be lynched ? Doing that and inciting the webadcidt argument again would be a bit useful for the scum don't you think ? Could you remind us the reasons why you done it ?
Also this is interesting from my point of view :
You've "stated a suspicion" of McInternetuser? Fine, but you still said "Vector IS scum therefore I do not need to hunt more scum". It betrays a certain state of mind, even coming from someone who knows how scum think.This "Fine" sound just like scum saying "Dang,you can got my buddy but you won't get me!".So now few unrelated (or not) questions: your opinion on bd now ?
Vector: Who's your pick right now ? Also i would like to know your read on the urist that remains alive.
UristMcArathos: Does webadict turining town changed much of your scumpicks order ? If so who's your prime suspect now ?
Flandre: How do you think urist death will change the scum tactics ? Who's least scummy to you ?
Post by: Think0028 on August 10, 2011, 04:07:59 pm
The day will end Friday, 7:00 PM forum time. You need 2 to extend and 4 to shorten.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 10, 2011, 04:42:02 pm
Weba turning Town greatly upsets my suspicions. I curently have the following picks:
1) Bdthemag. I'm voting for him, because his behavior has gone from questionable to downright scummy in my eyes. See my last post for more details, I am happy to answer any questions you may have as well.
2) Billybobfred/Vector. Both have some things that are making me suspicious, but it's hard to pin them down with anything too solid. Unfortunately, Weba being NKed is hard to ignore when making a case against Vector. It seems like an obvious scum framing (but that way lies WIFOM, so I try to push it aside).
3) IronyOwl. Not much on the owl, but I was fairly sure at least one IC was scum, and I'm not sure where I stand on Irony. Bears watching, at least.
I'm pretty sure you and Flandre are town; your scumhunting currently seems legit, not bandwagoning. I suppose Flandre could have bussed Urist, but his play was so sloppy at the end I doubt it. It seemed like an easy call to make.
Post by: billybobfred on August 10, 2011, 04:47:30 pm
Billbobfred : You voted webadict at the end of the day when it was obvious that bd who you were voting won't be lynched ? Doing that and inciting the webadcidt argument again would be a bit useful for the scum don't you think ? Could you remind us the reasons why you done it ?What do you mean by "the webadict argument"? Webadict was arguing all over the place right when I made my vote. There was nothing for me to "incite" "again". And even if there was, he was focusing on Vector, not McInternetuser.
Also this is interesting from my point of view :You've "stated a suspicion" of McInternetuser? Fine, but you still said "Vector IS scum therefore I do not need to hunt more scum". It betrays a certain state of mind, even coming from someone who knows how scum think.This "Fine" sound just like scum saying "Dang,you can got my buddy but you won't get me!".So now few unrelated (or not) questions: your opinion on bd now ?
I voted him because he was contradicting himself all over the place and generally spewing forth scumtells like, well, scum.
That "fine" sounds absolutely nothing like the thing you said. No, seriously, I have no idea how you got that. But just to be clear, the implication was "yeah, 'stated a suspicion', that totally means a whole lot coming from someone who just outright said finding one scum is enough, by the way that was sarcasm and what I actually think is that it was bullshit". Though I was clearly wrong about that.
Bd has made one post since day 2 started, and it was a fairly shitty one (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2519536#msg2519536). He still hasn't answered my question. (Not that I care anymore what the answer is, it's just bothering me that he hasn't given one.) That's all pretty scummy, but the problem is, I don't know whether I'm seeing genuine scumtells or just seeing what I want to see because I'm that bothered by his consistent refusal to answer one question.
Post by: Reverie on August 10, 2011, 05:39:24 pm
Flandre: How do you think urist death will change the scum tactics ? Who's least scummy to you ?I do not want to give out advice to the remaining scum, so I will politely refrain from answering your first question, unless you insist that I do.
To answer your second question, I suspect you the least. You have played solidly all throughout day one, and I have not found much to pry or interrogate from you. Understand, though, that this does not mean that my back is turned to you; I am still looking for a misstep. I would say that IronyOwl is up there with you as well, but he plays too nicely for me to disregard him.
Bd: I am still waiting.
IronyOwl: From those of us remaining, what is the order that you suspect us, and what is your reasoning?
Post by: Bdthemag on August 10, 2011, 08:13:01 pm
Flandre I've been in a few games before, but due to me jumping straight into the less beginner friendly games I got nervous and lurked. I guess i'll answer the Dead Urist's questions then, I think Billybob or Simple is scum at the moment. I was defensive early on because my scumhunting isn't that good, so I decided I could balance it out by being more defensive. And I dissapeared because I got really fucking busy, and didn't have alot of time to go on the computer.
Unvote, I honestly voted just to see Flandre's reaction.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 10, 2011, 09:41:12 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 10, 2011, 10:41:00 pm
Bdthemag: Why do you suspect Simple and Billybob, exactly?
Post by: Max White on August 11, 2011, 12:32:29 am
IronyOwl[1]: Simple
Bdthemag[1]: Urist_McArathos
Not voting: billybobfred, IronyOwl, Flandre, Vector, Bdthemag
The day will end Friday, the 12th , 7:00 PM Central time. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Did I get that right?
Now, most mods don't do this, but I found that one of the things I am always looking for are record on how everybody died, as such I am going to include a morgue with each vote count, for quick and easy reference, with some details about their death. Don't expect all games to include this.
Morgue
Urist Mcinternetuser(Mafia roleblock): Lynched by IronyOwl, Simple, Flandre and Vector
Webadict(townie): Killed, night 1
Post by: billybobfred on August 11, 2011, 01:51:50 pm
Webadict was damn sure Vector was scum. Now never mind why he was nightkilled, that's obviously a waste of time -- but now that he's dead, we know he was town, and as such, he wasn't trying to mislead us.
So I looked into Vector again. And she's been passive as hell the entire game. Even after webadict showed up and forced her into action, I get the feeling she was doing as little as felt she could get away with.
So, Vector, you've found time to make 95 posts, according to the lurker tracker. Why are so few of them useful?
(On an unrelated note, I really wanted to use my cleverness and do something with the fact that there's only one scum left, but I don't really know where to go with that.)
Post by: Simple on August 11, 2011, 02:24:44 pm
-snip-Just one more question : Would you say that urist play bore clear marks of IC help ?
Few people said that they were ok with urist lynching only because there was no direct conclusion on the webadict and vector warfare ( or at least that's my view on the situation at the d1 end). Throwing votes and plainly reassuring someone else case is something i would do if my partner lynch was not certain. Now, why his focus on vector be something that should make it more reasonable ? At this point vector was voting urist , so i guess it was easy to assume she could rethink it if she got the chance to lynch webadcit.-snip-What do you mean by "the webadict argument"? Webadict was arguing all over the place right when I made my vote. There was nothing for me to "incite" "again". And even if there was, he was focusing on Vector, not McInternetuser.
I voted him because he was contradicting himself all over the place and generally spewing forth scumtells like, well, scum.
-snip-
Bdthemag:What makes you suspect me and billybobfred ?
-snip-That post both gives me mixed messages about your scumminess so : what's with the emphasis on webadict towniness ? Is that important part of your case ?
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 11, 2011, 03:00:21 pm
Clear signs? Not from what I saw. We know LNCP is a non playing IC offering advice, but I doubt he would advise Urist to be so scummy. If either of the remaining ICs are scum, same thing. Webadict and I both said we felt Urist was scum, which meant almost everyone either voted or called him out as scum. It was really obvious. I think his play showed signs of confusion, like he wasn't sure how to hide or defend himself. Unfortunately, that doesn't tell me if he was badly executing IC advise or scrambling alone.
Post by: Vector on August 11, 2011, 03:36:25 pm
I do not have time to post until Saturday morning. I have a final tomorrow morning, after which I will be very tired, and then a bunch of other crap in the evening.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 11, 2011, 07:24:33 pm
McArathos:
Well, I guess I owe Webadict an apology...Not really. If he's scummy, he's scummy. If he's suspicious, he's suspicious. If you want to investigate him... you get the idea.
Let's see...My number one vote is NKed, my number three lynched, and number two is rife with WIFOM arguments based on this aftermath.
Hmm...it could be that the scum did this in a sloppy attempt to frame somebody, but that seems a little too obvious, even for a newbie. Webadict's investigation only pointed to Vector and Urist, and Urist is already dead, and Vector is...iffy to investigate, given that we could go round and round about whether or not she would NK Weba after their fighting Day One.This is not how you deal with WIFOM. You deal with WIFOM by ignoring it, completely. This is arguably worse than indulging it because at least indulging it gives you a chance to be right- this is basically saying "this could involve WIFOM and is thus unknowable," which is completely unacceptable for dealing with someone's alignment.
2) Billybobfred/Vector. Both have some things that are making me suspicious, but it's hard to pin them down with anything too solid. Unfortunately, Weba being NKed is hard to ignore when making a case against Vector. It seems like an obvious scum framing (but that way lies WIFOM, so I try to push it aside).Is there any particular reason you're not questioning any of your three secondary suspicions?
3) IronyOwl. Not much on the owl, but I was fairly sure at least one IC was scum, and I'm not sure where I stand on Irony. Bears watching, at least.
I'm pretty sure you and Flandre are town; your scumhunting currently seems legit, not bandwagoning. I suppose Flandre could have bussed Urist, but his play was so sloppy at the end I doubt it. It seemed like an easy call to make.This seems to contradict itself. Wouldn't Urist's play being so sloppy that it was an "easy call to make" make it more likely Flandre had bussed Urist?
Flandre:
Here is Urist's attempt at wriggling out of my grasp. They were questions addressed to you, nonetheless:Why does Mcinternetuser attempting to deflect onto Bd make you suspicious of Bd?@Bdthemag Who do you think the scum are? Why were you so defensive early on in this game? And why did you you disappear afterward?
Simple:
IronyOwl: You were pretty passive D1 but when you acted it all was bit strange how often it was connected with scriver/kilakan/urist actions.I don't think so. Asking you about scriver was almost all I did prior to the replace business, but after that it seemed fairly spread out.
He was also strangely looking for your support few times. This itself wouldn't be enoug to make you my prime suspect but every time you pointed out his mistakes you ended at simple remark where everyone else mistakes you pointed out were followed by some questioning.I don't remember anything like the first part, and the second part I'm pretty sure is wrong, if we're talking about McInternetuser.
I belive you were the person who attacked urist the least. Any conclusions from urist flip ?I'm pretty sure this is wrong as well, though I couldn't swear to it.
Vector was the fourth vote on him, and it was a bit lazy. Definitely puts her in the possible-bus category.
Flandre was on him pretty hard. Third vote, so it's certainly a possible bus, but there were numerous other targets and she was legitimately calling him out on things. Either a fairly elaborate setup or I'm thinking Flandre's town.
Simple was the second vote on him and pointed out his vote-hopping and general scumminess. Same general boat as Flandre.
So actually, I'm leaning pretty hardcore towards Vector being scum.
Feel free to provide quotes if you disagree with my disagreements, but at the moment it's looking like you don't really have a case.
Everyone:
Just to throw my 2 cents in, if you guys still think vec is suspicious, why not expand upon wubas suspicions? There is no need to interpret the NK sucssesfuly, so you should probably just stick with your previous suspicions if she was high up on your list.This is surprisingly good advice. Also, while it should generally come from more experienced sources, I tend to prefer a more open policy on random strangers dropping by to dispense wisdom. A variety of viewpoints is usually a good thing.
but now that he's dead, we know he was town, and as such, he wasn't trying to mislead us.This is correct. Note that this doesn't say anything about whether or not he was correct- he might have misjudged something, or been incompetent, or outwitted himself in some convoluted scheme that didn't pay off- but we know he wasn't malicious, and that if he said or did something, it was because he thought it would help town win.
The fact that he's pretty competent in general (and was NKed rather than lynched for being scummy) helps with that, of course, but this still shouldn't be confused with "he's town therefore his scumpicks are correct" or "he's town therefore everyone who was saying he's scum is scum themselves" or similar.
Post by: Reverie on August 12, 2011, 08:04:23 am
I apologize for not posting yesterday. I was a little busy creating a couple of avatars, and that took up all of my free time.
IronyOwl, I only pointed out Bd's lack of a response to the late Urist's question, as well as to my own. I was suspicious because he writes sporadic, seemingly well-timed posts, and therefore keeps updated on the thread while still missing what we ask of him.
Post by: Think0028 on August 12, 2011, 12:06:56 pm
Post by: billybobfred on August 12, 2011, 01:19:39 pm
It's not part of the case at all. All it is is a reason to look at Vector.-snip-That post both gives me mixed messages about your scumminess so : what's with the emphasis on webadict towniness ? Is that important part of your case ?
As IronyOwl said, knowing he wasn't malicious doesn't mean he wasn't wrong, so I don't want to rely on his thoughts too much. But what I saw didn't make Vector look very good.
Post by: lordnincompoop on August 13, 2011, 01:10:10 pm
Simple, Urist_McArathos and IronyOwl are cutting it close.
Post by: Think0028 on August 13, 2011, 01:15:33 pm
Post by: jc6036 on August 13, 2011, 01:16:31 pm
Post by: Vector on August 13, 2011, 02:58:34 pm
Pfaugh.
This is ridiculous. I'll post today at some point. Right now I'm thinking through strategy.
Post by: Simple on August 13, 2011, 04:30:01 pm
-snip-I need to start making notes when i'm rereading, the first one was just my feeling after reread so i guess i can overblown this thing.
This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2483153#msg2483153) post was what made me think why you haven't included scriver/kilakan in your suspects list. Maybe you could explain it now ? As for the looking for approval thingy : That (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2486665#msg2486665) is innocent enough i would omit it but alongside with this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2488828#msg2488828) ( here i also wonder where he got this advice, because it's not like you directly said to him that he should question others ) i start to question if it's only taking the IC advice. It's hard to point where you have not questioned him but your your vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2504607#msg2504607) on him was basically a lurker call, and with each consequent response you just kept on correcting his mistakes without putting any apparent pressure on him. Not that i'm terribly convinced you're scum but i mainly investigated scriver/kilakan/urist interactions with my prime suspects, and i could just be wrong in doing that at all.
Sooo, you have no case on vector. Basically you just want everyone to vote her based only on the chance that webadict could be right. And you don't even want people to vote her but just 'look'. Not scummy at all. If that's not that, what's your case on her ?It's not part of the case at all. All it is is a reason to look at Vector.-snip-That post both gives me mixed messages about your scumminess so : what's with the emphasis on webadict towniness ? Is that important part of your case ?
As IronyOwl said, knowing he wasn't malicious doesn't mean he wasn't wrong, so I don't want to rely on his thoughts too much. But what I saw didn't make Vector look very good.
Bdthemag: Opinions on everyone. Or at least three most scummy. Next: Should we lynch you just from the fact that you're worst kind of scum : lurking one ? Or there's something else except constant postponing your posts that you did to help town ?
Post by: billybobfred on August 13, 2011, 05:40:04 pm
Sooo, you have no case on vector. Basically you just want everyone to vote her based only on the chance that webadict could be right. And you don't even want people to vote her but just 'look'. Not scummy at all. If that's not that, what's your case on her ?... Did you read my post at all, or are you just seeing what you want to see?
Vector has done hardly any actual scumhunting the whole game. No, that's not a case by itself, which is why I am questioning her instead of calling for torches and pitchforks. Voting for her based just on the off chance that webadict was right would be stupid.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 13, 2011, 06:49:32 pm
This (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2483153#msg2483153) post was what made me think why you haven't included scriver/kilakan in your suspects list. Maybe you could explain it now ?As the very next post suggests, kilakan had asked for a replace at that point. I didn't see much value questioning someone who wasn't there and would never be there, nor did I think preemptively questioning his replacement was a good idea.
As for the looking for approval thingy : That (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2486665#msg2486665) is innocent enough i would omit it but alongside with this (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2488828#msg2488828) ( here i also wonder where he got this advice, because it's not like you directly said to him that he should question others ) i start to question if it's only taking the IC advice.Neither of those look particularly like scum looking for his partner's approval to me; standard noob trying to sort of follow the IC's advice, or nooby scum trying to do the same seems more likely.
The advice might have been from scumchat, and/or it might have been him realizing that he didn't have anything else on JC, and just riding him wasn't going to work. I did tell him (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2486887#msg2486887) to question people, with sort of an inference of "other people."
It's hard to point where you have not questioned him but your your vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2504607#msg2504607) on him was basically a lurker call, and with each consequent response you just kept on correcting his mistakes without putting any apparent pressure on him.I pressured him more here. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2507725#msg2507725) The one after that was more explaining how to play, but I don't think I was going completely IC-mode on him.
Not that i'm terribly convinced you're scum but i mainly investigated scriver/kilakan/urist interactions with my prime suspects, and i could just be wrong in doing that at all.No, that's good. Especially in this case, where it looks like I might have been going easy on him while still riding my vote on him to a lynch.
Nonetheless, I think you might be confusing "gave him IC advice" with "was buddying up to him."
Post by: Vector on August 13, 2011, 07:13:29 pm
The conditions are as follows:
Today, everyone ignores me and whatever scumminess you think I might possess based on Webadict's "work," and we look for scum in all quarters but mine. Calling me out on things I have done is fine--scummy quotations, whatever. Waffling over whether or not you think you believe Webadict and whether I'm passive oh my god is not fine.
In other words, today everyone promises not to jump in the wine and hunt their hearts out. No more hunting based on the opinions of someone else's archeology. Genuine, aggressive activity.
Tomorrow, if conditions
a. We have not won the game
b. People are still strongly suspicious of me (I have been unable to be active and really direct due to finishing off an intensive German class. Apparently, my inactivity due to my class is the chief reason why people suspect me. I couldn't do much about it, so hopefully today will reverse some opinions). If I'm not widely considered town, consider b. true.
hold, I will vote myself and ask to be lynched.
There's a couple of reasons for trying this move.
First, I have fallen under a great deal of suspicion, which I do not believe I'll be able to shift. Webadict decided I was scum without declaring much in the way of reasoning, and people seem to be going along with that. I do not have any way to move the words of a dead man, especially not Webadict. I strongly suspect that I will be in suspicion as long as I live. At this point, I strongly doubt I will be nightkilled. It simply wouldn't be helpful.
Therefore, the question is not one of whether I will be lynched, but when. We have three days.
If I am lynched at Lylo, town will lose.
If I volunteered myself to be lynched today, town will not get everything out of the death that they might have (a Day of my hunting full-bore with no other obligations, and I would have no ability to clear myself. Also, it would be stupid.
If I am lynched tomorrow, town will get the benefit of my hunting, the benefit of suspicion clearing the air and an ability to reconsider their feelings before Lylo, and none of the difficulties of my being alive at lylo.
I am very interested in your responses.
Post by: billybobfred on August 13, 2011, 08:32:22 pm
That is not something the last scum in the game would do. Well, unless they could win the game tonight... which they can't.
Unvote.
*sigh* Now I need to decide who to look into next. I have a few choices but I'm kinda busy right now.
Post by: Reverie on August 13, 2011, 08:54:07 pm
Call it what you will, but I remain to be convinced that you are scum.
Bdthemag:You have questions that need answering, and I have noticed that you have dropped in for several unrelated threads over these last few days. If time online for you is so scarce, why don't you leave a note saying as much, right here in this thread? I think that I have been very generous with my suspicion for you without calling you out with a vote, but this is getting absurd.
Flandre I've been in a few games before, but due to me jumping straight into the less beginner friendly games I got nervous and lurked. I guess i'll answer the Dead Urist's questions then, I think Billybob or Simple is scum at the moment. I was defensive early on because my scumhunting isn't that good, so I decided I could balance it out by being more defensive. And I dissapeared because I got really fucking busy, and didn't have alot of time to go on the computer.You are lurking at present, so please tell me: what makes you so nervous in this game?
Simple: Where are you from? You do not need to answer if you want to keep that to yourself, but my curiosity finally got the better of me.
Post by: Think0028 on August 13, 2011, 11:13:42 pm
IronyOwl[1]: Simple
Bdthemag[2]: Urist_McArathos, Flandre
Not voting: billybobfred, IronyOwl, Vector, Bdthemag
The day will end Monday, the 15th , 7:00 PM Central time. You need 3 people to Extend and 5 to Shorten.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 13, 2011, 11:17:25 pm
2) Billybobfred/Vector. Both have some things that are making me suspicious, but it's hard to pin them down with anything too solid. Unfortunately, Weba being NKed is hard to ignore when making a case against Vector. It seems like an obvious scum framing (but that way lies WIFOM, so I try to push it aside).Is there any particular reason you're not questioning any of your three secondary suspicions?
3) IronyOwl. Not much on the owl, but I was fairly sure at least one IC was scum, and I'm not sure where I stand on Irony. Bears watching, at least.
Sorry for my delays; got some unexpected 17 hours shifts thrown my way the past few days, it's been nothing but work and sleep for me.
Honestly, I don't have as much on my others that's solid, and I'm trying to think of a case. I admit I get a little focused on my number one pick.
I'm torn on Vector because she has been scummy in some ways and absent, but she's also made it abundantly clear she's busy IRL. Lack of activity is therefore easily explained, so I am not sure if her lack of effort is a scumtell or not. Her most recent post has pushed her down my list a bit; it seems, as stated by billybobfred, like the kind of thing a genuinely remorseful townie would do to make up for poor activity. Not enough to clear her in my eyes, but enough to be a fair offer to evaluate.
Billybobfred, oddly enough, is my other suspect you mentioned. I don't have a strong case on him, more of a gut feeling I'm exploring. I really think Bdthemag is the last scum, so if I'm wrong I need to take a hard look at you all, since the true scum would be doing a damn good job of hiding.
Post by: billybobfred on August 13, 2011, 11:51:32 pm
it seems, as stated by billybobfred, like the kind of thing a genuinely remorseful townie would do to make up for poor activity.
Never mind "genuinely remorseful townie", IF she's scum, she basically just won us the game by offering herself up to be lynched.
It's only the fact that she could be scum seeking refuge in audacity that makes me resolved to lynch her tomorrow if we don't find scum today.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 14, 2011, 12:28:18 am
it seems, as stated by billybobfred, like the kind of thing a genuinely remorseful townie would do to make up for poor activity.
Never mind "genuinely remorseful townie", IF she's scum, she basically just won us the game by offering herself up to be lynched.
It's only the fact that she could be scum seeking refuge in audacity that makes me resolved to lynch her tomorrow if we don't find scum today.
Really, I'm on the fence with her more because it seemed like she was lurking, and playing passively (and therefore not interested in finding scum). I also considered it odd how defensive and active she became with Webadict. Of course, none of those make for a solid case, which is why she never topped my list. I've found what I consider to be better targets though, so I'm focused more on them. Her offer seemed fair, and like the sort a townie genuinely wanting to make up for lost time and erroneous suspicions would make. Remorseful may be the wrong term (since she may not feel remorse, or feel she's done anything wrong), but I think you all get what I mean by now.
Post by: Vector on August 14, 2011, 12:29:30 am
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 14, 2011, 12:37:08 am
I'm not being "remorseful." I'm trying to get the best of a bad situation. I frankly don't feel very bad at all about prioritizing my studies over an internet game.
I did try to clarify what I meant in my next post. I wouldn't expect anyone to put a game before important matters, and didn't want to imply you should feel bad for doing so. Hopefully I've made what I meant to say and screwed up sufficiently clear, and I've not offended you.
Post by: Bdthemag on August 14, 2011, 02:29:11 pm
Simple If you want to lynch me for lurking, go ahead. If you feel I haven't been helping town then you can lynch me, honestly what else did you expect me to say about that? And my top three scum list is, Billybob, You, and Urist.
Post by: billybobfred on August 14, 2011, 03:05:30 pm
I pretty much can't imagine how you could screw over town by mistake, except by being so scummy you get yourself lynched before the actual scum. (Which, if you're town, you are kind of doing right now!)
Well, I can imagine one scenario. If you're a power role (and I'm going to request that you NOT comment on this possibility in any way), you might accidentally reveal yourself and get nightkilled, thus depriving the town of your ability. But you know what? You can't be a very good power role if you have no idea what's going on, and I've learned from this very game that it's a lot easier to tell what's going on if you're actively participating.
In the significantly more likely scenario that you're not a power role, you can help town out by looking so dangerous to the scum that they nightkill you instead of the actual power roles. But you're not threatening if you're not participating!
tl;dr: Get participating or get lynched.
Post by: Reverie on August 14, 2011, 03:37:45 pm
Flandre Generally I don't want to screw over the town by doing something stupid that would unintentionally help the scum. I may worry about that too much though :/If you are town, then you are helping the scum by hiding from us, Bd. Don't you see the unwanted attention that gets you?
Simple If you want to lynch me for lurking, go ahead. If you feel I haven't been helping town then you can lynch me, honestly what else did you expect me to say about that? And my top three scum list is, Billybob, You, and Urist.
Also, I will pretend you haven't conceded to Billybob. I do not want to see you get lynched just because you abstain from defending yourself; that attitude hurts the town as well as yourself. I also want to know more about why you suspect those three on your list. Preferably before tomorrow evening, because my vote stands.
Post by: Reverie on August 14, 2011, 03:40:27 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 14, 2011, 03:42:35 pm
Post by: jc6036 on August 14, 2011, 03:46:43 pm
Post by: Vector on August 14, 2011, 03:59:06 pm
Post by: jc6036 on August 14, 2011, 04:01:10 pm
Post by: Simple on August 14, 2011, 06:06:17 pm
I don't see much questioning from your side.But i agree that we're yet to see some real scumhunting from her.Sooo, you have no case on vector. Basically you just want everyone to vote her based only on the chance that webadict could be right. And you don't even want people to vote her but just 'look'. Not scummy at all. If that's not that, what's your case on her ?... Did you read my post at all, or are you just seeing what you want to see?
Vector has done hardly any actual scumhunting the whole game. No, that's not a case by itself, which is why I am questioning her instead of calling for torches and pitchforks. Voting for her based just on the off chance that webadict was right would be stupid.
-snip-Well maybe i put too much weight to that. Alright, Unvote for now.
-snip-Hmm, i don't like the sound of the whole ignore thing but you're right that we still have some time and even if you're scum this would give you no benefit.I'm alright with this plan since i really look forward to your offensive and if you were only to defend from webadcit case(?) variations it would be pretty much lost time for town.So you get your second chance ( or something like that) from me at least.
-snip-Me? Poland ,Poznań to be precise.
Simple: Where are you from? You do not need to answer if you want to keep that to yourself, but my curiosity finally got the better of me.
Simple If you want to lynch me for lurking, go ahead. If you feel I haven't been helping town then you can lynch me, honestly what else did you expect me to say about that? And my top three scum list is, Billybob, You, and Urist.The problem is i do NOT want to lynch you. But your post are so scarce and scumhunting free that i would feel horrible if you were scum that did completely nothing and go away with it. Don't give up, respond and help the town!
Bdthemag, that is one of the shittiest responses I have ever seen. (I have seen worse, but all two of them boil down to "implausible fakeclaim, then stop defending yourself".)Alright you done it. First:in comparison to the rest of your attacks this one seems pretty aggressive. Why ? You belive he's town (really stating your doubts three times after you voted?) and you say only way he could harm the town is to be lynched based on his scumminess. Then you vote him anyway ? If that was meant as pressure you basically made it useless. And if this is real lynching vote i fail to see why you would do that. And you throw up deliberate rolefishing into that ? Well i hope it was worth it Billybobfred.
I pretty much can't imagine how you could screw over town by mistake, except by being so scummy you get yourself lynched before the actual scum. (Which, if you're town, you are kind of doing right now!)
Well, I can imagine one scenario. If you're a power role (and I'm going to request that you NOT comment on this possibility in any way), you might accidentally reveal yourself and get nightkilled, thus depriving the town of your ability. But you know what? You can't be a very good power role if you have no idea what's going on, and I've learned from this very game that it's a lot easier to tell what's going on if you're actively participating.
In the significantly more likely scenario that you're not a power role, you can help town out by looking so dangerous to the scum that they nightkill you instead of the actual power roles. But you're not threatening if you're not participating!
tl;dr: Get participating or get lynched.
Bdthemag:I forgot to ask : Why these suspects ?
Post by: billybobfred on August 14, 2011, 06:39:56 pm
Alright you done it. First:in comparison to the rest of your attacks this one seems pretty aggressive. Why ? You belive he's town (really stating your doubts three times after you voted?) and you say only way he could harm the town is to be lynched based on his scumminess. Then you vote him anyway ? If that was meant as pressure you basically made it useless. And if this is real lynching vote i fail to see why you would do that. And you throw up deliberate rolefishing into that ? Well i hope it was worth it Billybobfred.My attack is aggressive because bd just did something to catch my attention, and not in a good way.
Bdthemag:I forgot to ask : Why these suspects ?
I never once said I believed he was town. I told him that not-posting is not a good way to avoid accidentally screwing over town and explained why. (I'm still pretty sure he's trying to deliberately screw over town by not-posting, but hey.)
And yeah, "do not comment on your role or lack thereof in any way" and "you should participate more whether you are a power role or not" are DEFINITELY rolefishing statements. Completely. (hint: that is not true in any way)
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 14, 2011, 09:13:32 pm
Flandre Generally I don't want to screw over the town by doing something stupid that would unintentionally help the scum. I may worry about that too much though :/
No, no, no. THIS is total bullshit, Bd. It's exactly the same kind of crap that got UristMcinternetuser lynched. It's passive, weak, and does NOTHING to defend you or expose someone else. You don't want to screw over town by doing something stupid that would help scum? It's called mislynch, and if you're town you're doing a piss-poor job of helping prevent it. Giving a half-hearted shrug in response to accusations of scumminess is NOT how you help town, and it IS how you get yourself hanged. Ask your buddy Urist how it turned out for him. You're not overly worried about it, you're not worried AT ALL. I've accused you of not giving a damn about how this game goes because you're scum, just coasting along. You seriously are not going to even try and dispel that, but rather dive headfirst into confirming it with this crappy reply? NO.
Quote
Simple If you want to lynch me for lurking, go ahead. If you feel I haven't been helping town then you can lynch me, honestly what else did you expect me to say about that?
How about, as I said before, why you shouldn't be lynched because you're town? I may not be Simple, but I would expect you to answer some questions and START helping town. I expected some sort of defense, some sort of rationale that you're not scum. You're not giving anything to prove it, and if you're NOT scum, all you're doing with this crap is giving them a nice, easy target to hide behind while we all lynch you. Either grow a pair and defend yourself or accept that you've lost, scumface.
Quote
And my top three scum list is, Billybob, You, and Urist.
Really? That's friggin' interesting. Billybob, Simple, and I...we're your TOP suspects, eh?
Flandre Why exactely do you want to assume Vector is town just because you suspect that she wouldn't do something?
Then why are you voting for Flandre? Why did you have no answer when I asked you to justify your hasty vote? Why did you not unvote Flandre and vote for one of your "real" suspects? Could it be because you have no real suspects, no case, and are scrambling to look town and throw suspicion onto someone else? Because if Billybob was MY number one vote, I'd be voting for HIM, understand? You're my number one pick, and, let's see...
hmm...
Yep, I'm voting for YOU. That's how it works: you find suspects, decide who you think is scum, then vote for them. You don't declare someone scum, vote for them without a reason, then give someone else an entirely different list of suspects when asked for an explanation. Actually, you can do all of that if you're scum, because then it at least makes sense.
I'd vote for you twice if I could; I'll have to settle for watching you hang in just under 24 hours and having the smug satisfaction of knowing I caught you first, scumbag.
Post by: Vector on August 14, 2011, 09:15:52 pm
On the other hand, I've been voting/accusing BD off and on for a reasonable part of this game, so removing him will probably really clear the air.
Anyway, rereading and stuffs.
Post by: Reverie on August 14, 2011, 10:23:46 pm
Wait the day ends today? Are we going to extend this or just end the day?
Considering your unpopularity at the time, Bd, you sound more distraught here than any townie should have under similar circumstances. You are not even requesting for an extension, so what purpose does this serve? None. I see a raw reaction put into words, and the most obvious, unintentional truths are those that are said before one thinks.
Post by: Simple on August 15, 2011, 12:50:56 pm
What exactly was that thing ? Maybe you never said directly but you keep mentioning that you're not sure and using the "actual scum" phrase in the attack on him isn't really helping. As for the last thing how saying : "If you were power role you would be better player, and i don't really believe you could even be one! So don't try to convince me that you are." is not trying to get him to disclose his role? If you wouldn't put that to any use, why the hell you even said that ?Alright you done it. First:in comparison to the rest of your attacks this one seems pretty aggressive. Why ? You belive he's town (really stating your doubts three times after you voted?) and you say only way he could harm the town is to be lynched based on his scumminess. Then you vote him anyway ? If that was meant as pressure you basically made it useless. And if this is real lynching vote i fail to see why you would do that. And you throw up deliberate rolefishing into that ? Well i hope it was worth it Billybobfred.My attack is aggressive because bd just did something to catch my attention, and not in a good way.
Bdthemag:I forgot to ask : Why these suspects ?
I never once said I believed he was town. I told him that not-posting is not a good way to avoid accidentally screwing over town and explained why. (I'm still pretty sure he's trying to deliberately screw over town by not-posting, but hey.)
And yeah, "do not comment on your role or lack thereof in any way" and "you should participate more whether you are a power role or not" are DEFINITELY rolefishing statements. Completely. (hint: that is not true in any way)
ExtendJust in case i won't be here before day ends. I still want to hear Vector and Bdthemag suspects and reasoning.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 15, 2011, 02:56:17 pm
Today, everyone ignores me and whatever scumminess you think I might possess based on Webadict's "work," and we look for scum in all quarters but mine. Calling me out on things I have done is fine--scummy quotations, whatever. Waffling over whether or not you think you believe Webadict and whether I'm passive oh my god is not fine.This seems to contradict itself- some parts imply you're just saying "ignore webadict, do it yourself," others seem to say "ignore me, hunt others."
Tomorrow, if conditionsThis seems similarly shifty. You have a condition of "People are still strongly suspicious of me," which you brush off as a lack of activity and then clarify to mean "If I'm not widely considered town." Why not just say "b. I'm not widely considered town" in the first place?
a. We have not won the game
b. People are still strongly suspicious of me (I have been unable to be active and really direct due to finishing off an intensive German class. Apparently, my inactivity due to my class is the chief reason why people suspect me. I couldn't do much about it, so hopefully today will reverse some opinions). If I'm not widely considered town, consider b. true.
hold, I will vote myself and ask to be lynched.
I also don't like this shift from earlier, (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2519601#msg2519601) when you were incredulous that webadict could be town, confident that you could get him lynched, and relieved that such a scummy player had saved everyone the trouble. Also, thinking through strategy (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2531272#msg2531272) in between.
Flandre:
IronyOwl: From those of us remaining, what is the order that you suspect us, and what is your reasoning?I just now noticed that I missed this... and that you never mentioned it again. Didn't you care? You've asked Bd about his questions repeatedly.
Bdthemag:
Flandre Generally I don't want to screw over the town by doing something stupid that would unintentionally help the scum. I may worry about that too much though :/If it stops you from posting or being useful, then yes. Do you really think you could do worse than now?
Simple If you want to lynch me for lurking, go ahead. If you feel I haven't been helping town then you can lynch me, honestly what else did you expect me to say about that? And my top three scum list is, Billybob, You, and Urist.This is miserably passive and scummy. It's RIA or someone who doesn't understand that wasting a lynch on townies helps scum. If you're so goddamned nervous about saying or doing anything that might help scum, why are you handing them a free lynch?
Plus, you're not explaining, or doing anything about, your scumpicks. You suspect half the game, but can't be assed to tell the rest of us why or whittle that list down a bit?
(Also note that I am at least the third person to give this advice. In a beginner's game. Even the newbies know this is horribly badwrongno.)
JC:
Ok, if you think I'm causing any harm, please step in and say so.Personally, I think it's been pretty sage advice. I'm kind of surprised you didn't do better when you were playing. :P
Simple:
Now, are you unvoting because you agree that it's probably nothing, or because the IC said so?-snip-Well maybe i put too much weight to that. Alright, Unvote for now.
Urist:
Well done. I hadn't noticed that juicy detail.QuoteAnd my top three scum list is, Billybob, You, and Urist.
Really? That's friggin' interesting. Billybob, Simple, and I...we're your TOP suspects, eh?Flandre Why exactely do you want to assume Vector is town just because you suspect that she wouldn't do something?
Then why are you voting for Flandre? Why did you have no answer when I asked you to justify your hasty vote? Why did you not unvote Flandre and vote for one of your "real" suspects? Could it be because you have no real suspects, no case, and are scrambling to look town and throw suspicion onto someone else? Because if Billybob was MY number one vote, I'd be voting for HIM, understand? You're my number one pick, and, let's see...
hmm...
Yep, I'm voting for YOU. That's how it works: you find suspects, decide who you think is scum, then vote for them. You don't declare someone scum, vote for them without a reason, then give someone else an entirely different list of suspects when asked for an explanation. Actually, you can do all of that if you're scum, because then it at least makes sense.
I'd vote for you twice if I could; I'll have to settle for watching you hang in just under 24 hours and having the smug satisfaction of knowing I caught you first, scumbag.
Post by: billybobfred on August 15, 2011, 03:29:53 pm
Okay, at this point I literally do not understand what you are saying.What exactly was that thing ? Maybe you never said directly but you keep mentioning that you're not sure and using the "actual scum" phrase in the attack on him isn't really helping. As for the last thing how saying : "If you were power role you would be better player, and i don't really believe you could even be one! So don't try to convince me that you are." is not trying to get him to disclose his role? If you wouldn't put that to any use, why the hell you even said that ?Alright you done it. First:in comparison to the rest of your attacks this one seems pretty aggressive. Why ? You belive he's town (really stating your doubts three times after you voted?) and you say only way he could harm the town is to be lynched based on his scumminess. Then you vote him anyway ? If that was meant as pressure you basically made it useless. And if this is real lynching vote i fail to see why you would do that. And you throw up deliberate rolefishing into that ? Well i hope it was worth it Billybobfred.My attack is aggressive because bd just did something to catch my attention, and not in a good way.
Bdthemag:I forgot to ask : Why these suspects ?
I never once said I believed he was town. I told him that not-posting is not a good way to avoid accidentally screwing over town and explained why. (I'm still pretty sure he's trying to deliberately screw over town by not-posting, but hey.)
And yeah, "do not comment on your role or lack thereof in any way" and "you should participate more whether you are a power role or not" are DEFINITELY rolefishing statements. Completely. (hint: that is not true in any way)
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 15, 2011, 03:36:59 pm
Simple's first question, to me, appears to be "What did BD just do to catch your attention, and not in a good way?"
His second one seems to be saying that your statement:
Well, I can imagine one scenario. If you're a power role (and I'm going to request that you NOT comment on this possibility in any way), you might accidentally reveal yourself and get nightkilled, thus depriving the town of your ability. But you know what? You can't be a very good power role if you have no idea what's going on, and I've learned from this very game that it's a lot easier to tell what's going on if you're actively participating.
Is a roundabout rolefish in his eyes. He thinks you dismissing the possibility that he's a power role is designed purely to get him to claim a role; if it isn't why did you state that he can't be very good at playing a power role?
At least, that's what I've managed to get from all this.
Post by: Vector on August 15, 2011, 03:37:27 pm
You're right. What I want is for everyone to ignore what Web had to say for one day, and if we haven't lynched scum at the end of it and I'm widely on people's "heavy doubt" lists, I want to be lynched.
I STILL think Webadict was ridiculous and talking out his ass, but there seems to have been a shift of suspicion in that opinion. My thoughts do not inform the thoughts and opinions of the rest of the town.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 15, 2011, 03:45:40 pm
This is a first time I've ever put through a gambit, so I spent a lot of time thinking it through (and then misworded it anyway).So... it's not really a gamble, so much as "Ignore everything webadict said for a day."
You're right. What I want is for everyone to ignore what Web had to say for one day, and if we haven't lynched scum at the end of it and I'm widely on people's "heavy doubt" lists, I want to be lynched.
I STILL think Webadict was ridiculous and talking out his ass, but there seems to have been a shift of suspicion in that opinion. My thoughts do not inform the thoughts and opinions of the rest of the town.
Post by: Vector on August 15, 2011, 03:53:10 pm
I'm gambling that we'll be able to find the last scum before I end up being lynched. It's a gamble.
Post by: billybobfred on August 15, 2011, 04:04:37 pm
From what I gathered, you were saying, hypothetically, that the only way he could make things WORSE for town than they are now is if he was a power role and got himself NKed. You then made it clear that you did NOT want him to comment on it, because it was a hypothetical scenario and not a rolefish. In other words, he already IS hurting town as much as he possibly can, so he needs to start doing SOMETHING, because literally any course of action will be better.
Simple's first question, to me, appears to be "What did BD just do to catch your attention, and not in a good way?"
His second one seems to be saying that your statement:Well, I can imagine one scenario. If you're a power role (and I'm going to request that you NOT comment on this possibility in any way), you might accidentally reveal yourself and get nightkilled, thus depriving the town of your ability. But you know what? You can't be a very good power role if you have no idea what's going on, and I've learned from this very game that it's a lot easier to tell what's going on if you're actively participating.
Is a roundabout rolefish in his eyes. He thinks you dismissing the possibility that he's a power role is designed purely to get him to claim a role; if it isn't why did you state that he can't be very good at playing a power role?
At least, that's what I've managed to get from all this.
Okay, well, assuming you're understanding Simple correctly...
The thing BD did to catch my attention was, uh, this post. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89220.msg2533884#msg2533884) The one I was calling "one of the shittiest responses I have ever seen".
Im Sorry
I Thought That Was Obvious
</gratuitous homestuck reference>
I only brought up the possibility of Bd being a power role because it was the only way I could imagine for him to "screw town over by accident" by posting. I dismissed it for two reasons:
1. It's statistically unlikely for any given person to be a power role, and whether or not Bd is one is not something I need or want to look into.
2. I think Bd is scum, which would kinda contradict his being a power role.
As for the second question, yet again, I've said something that can be interpreted in more than one way, and in accordance with Finagle's Law, it was interpreted in the way I didn't mean.
The phrase
You can't be a very good power role if you have no idea what's going onis not meant to accuse Bd of being a shitty power role.
It was meant to convey something along the lines of "a power role needs to know what is going on in order to be useful", and was an extension of the hypothetical situation where Bd is actually capable of screwing town over by accident.
... Did I miss anything? I feel like I missed something.
Post by: Reverie on August 15, 2011, 04:49:07 pm
Flandre:I forgot that I asked. I suppose I am more at fault for forgetting the question than you are for overlooking it, but I do care.IronyOwl: From those of us remaining, what is the order that you suspect us, and what is your reasoning?I just now noticed that I missed this... and that you never mentioned it again. Didn't you care? You've asked Bd about his questions repeatedly.
I will forgo asking for a complete list, but who are your secondary and tertiary suspects, IronyOwl?
Post by: Think0028 on August 15, 2011, 08:09:28 pm
billybobfred, Urist_McArathos, and Flandre surround the quiet Bdthemag. "What's the matter, traitor? Nothing to say for yourself?" "Foul magics got your tongue, Bd?" "Give us one good reason to not kill you right here and now."
Bd stands there, staring into the distance, mumbling.
billybobfred moves in closer, straining to hear Bd's quiet words... as Bd erupts into the form of a giant demon!
Flandre draws a holy symbol from a hidden pocket, shouting out holy words of power that momentarily stun the Bdemon. "Hold him off! I can banish the evil forces that possess him, but I need time! (It seems Flandre was a Cleric, acting to protect the soldiers in the keep.)
Vector and IronyOwl, the two most veteran guards in the keep, move to fight the Bdemon. Together, they poke, prod, and parry the Bdemon, ducking to avoid the monster's powerful swipes. It seems they have the advantage, and may even be able to defeat it without Flandre's help, when all of a sudden it lets forth a powerful roar that knocks the two off their feet. The creature rushes, poised to rip out Flandre's throat...
when Simple, brave Simple, leaps in front of the demon, taking a terrible gash along his arms in the process. But it is enough, and from Flandre's holy symbol pours forth a glorious golden light.
The beast is gone. All is safe once again. The Keep on the Borderlands has stood strong.
Bdthemag, Mafia, has been lynched!
The Town has won!
Scumchat (http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/ubbYeZ24ntE)
Deadchat (http://www.quicktopic.com/46/H/GD5t4XRU7EU)
If you'd like to ask any of the three IC's about your performance, now is the time!
Post by: Reverie on August 15, 2011, 08:16:37 pm
Also, I was a Doctor. McArathos, you were under my protection for N1.
Post by: Max White on August 15, 2011, 08:17:21 pm
Nice work guys! Good game all around! I was very impressed with all our new players, and I'm going to give a special mention to firstly Jc, who at one point had two IC's on him, and still didn't loose he's cool while making a very good assessment of the game. Also Urist_McArathos, who realy kicked into gear when things were going slow.
Despite the loss, I think scum also did a good job. Getting two IC's ripping each other apart isn't easy, and they did very well to have Vector willing to lynch herself. Kudos to all involved!
Post by: billybobfred on August 15, 2011, 08:18:47 pm
Quote from: LNCP
And BDthemag, if you lurk again like you've done recently (you know what I'm taking about), I'm going to savage you horribly and eat your guts for brunch.
ahahahahahaha
LNCP saw this coming from the very beginning
Post by: Vector on August 15, 2011, 08:19:02 pm
But yes. Well done to everyone, and I apologize for my crappy play in this game. I probably won't be signing up to IC again.
I'll add, though, that this is the best BM we've ever had on record. I'll probably be putting it in the Notable Games Archive!
Post by: Think0028 on August 15, 2011, 08:19:33 pm
scriver->kilakan->Mcinternetuser was a Roleblocker, and Flandre was a Doctor. These were the only power roles. I'll post the PMs if anyone's curious.
PPE: GODDAMNIT PEOPLE STOP POSTING WHILE I'M TRYING TO POST
Post by: Max White on August 15, 2011, 08:21:04 pm
Almost-flawless. You could've blocked the kill N1, THEN that would've been flawless. Assuming you could get Webadict and Vector not to kill each other.Good point, still, only scum lynches is close enough to flawless. But still, who in their right mind would be protecting Webba?
Post by: Vector on August 15, 2011, 08:25:02 pm
Post by: Max White on August 15, 2011, 08:26:25 pm
That reminds me, Think and I had business...
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 15, 2011, 08:31:11 pm
If you'd like to ask any of the three IC's about your performance, now is the time!
So uh...how'd I do?
Post by: billybobfred on August 15, 2011, 08:33:04 pm
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 15, 2011, 08:36:55 pm
Wow. I was really not expecting the game to end so soon. Does this count as a flawless victory?<fist pump>
Also, I was a Doctor. McArathos, you were under my protection for N1.
Post by: Max White on August 15, 2011, 08:39:02 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 15, 2011, 08:40:39 pm
Yes, yes. I was willing to eat my shoe, I was so sure that Webadict was town. His suggestion to protect you did not go unnoticed.Wow. I was really not expecting the game to end so soon. Does this count as a flawless victory?<fist pump>
I sort of wish the game was a little longer. I am happy to have been right about Vector and Webadict both being town, though!
Heh, and I can also tell by reading the scumchat that I was not a favorite.
Bd, you lurker, you! At least now you can lurk to your heart's content. Also, we should have listened to Twiggie when he mentioned that statistic with his smarmy vote.
Also, I could also accept some criticism. Was I okay?
Also, I was a Doctor. McArathos, you were under my protection for N1.
Post by: jc6036 on August 15, 2011, 08:59:14 pm
Post by: webadict on August 15, 2011, 09:01:14 pm
Rightfully so. I was hoping to draw the kill to me, anyhow, as that would allow me to avoid a lynch the next Day. Also, I wanted to save a potential power role from dying, which is why I mega crumbed as every possible power role.Yes, yes. I was willing to eat my shoe, I was so sure that Webadict was town. His suggestion to protect you did not go unnoticed.Wow. I was really not expecting the game to end so soon. Does this count as a flawless victory?<fist pump>
I sort of wish the game was a little longer. I am happy to have been right about Vector and Webadict both being town, though!
Heh, and I can also tell by reading the scumchat that I was not a favorite.
Bd, you lurker, you! At least now you can lurk to your heart's content. Also, we should have listened to Twiggie when he mentioned that statistic with his smarmy vote.
Also, I could also accept some criticism. Was I okay?
Also, I was a Doctor. McArathos, you were under my protection for N1.
I have very. . . .complicated feelings about mafia. At some points it was very stressful and just not fun at all, (like when Simple was making inane accusations, but i think that was mainly a bit of a language barrier.) At least I was right about my main suspect! And on my first game too! I think that my biggest flaw was not reading and analysing carefully enough. I was actually typing the entire game down onto a computer with no internet connection just to keep up, since phone net is so hard to use. After I stepped out and became just an observer, the game became much clearer. Am I accurate in my self evaluation?That's how it goes, usually. You're not biased from internal conversation geared toward you.
Post by: Reverie on August 15, 2011, 09:07:31 pm
I have very. . . .complicated feelings about mafia. At some points it was very stressful and just not fun at all, (like when Simple was making inane accusations, but i think that was mainly a bit of a language barrier.) At least I was right about my main suspect! And on my first game too! I think that my biggest flaw was not reading and analysing carefully enough. I was actually typing the entire game down onto a computer with no internet connection just to keep up, since phone net is so hard to use. After I stepped out and became just an observer, the game became much clearer. Am I accurate in my self evaluation?I am guilty of having sub-par internet connection myself. If my post was brief, than there was a good chance that it was typed on my phone. Otherwise, this game was played over my shoddy one bar of 3g connection, transmitted over my phone via wi-fi, from my laptop.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 15, 2011, 09:12:01 pm
Post by: jc6036 on August 15, 2011, 09:12:05 pm
Post by: Urist Mcinternetuser on August 15, 2011, 09:20:48 pm
Post by: Max White on August 15, 2011, 09:23:50 pm
Webba, you up for scum IC? As I recall, your last chance was cut short, and it looked like you were enjoying it. Don't want LNCP to always have the fun role.
Post by: jc6036 on August 15, 2011, 09:31:02 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 15, 2011, 09:32:21 pm
Post by: billybobfred on August 15, 2011, 09:33:56 pm
... Actually, I can't think of any differences at all. (doesn't mean there aren't any, of course)
Post by: billybobfred on August 15, 2011, 09:34:18 pm
Post by: Max White on August 15, 2011, 09:34:48 pm
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 15, 2011, 09:37:07 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 15, 2011, 09:40:20 pm
I'd love to be involved in the next game as well.Wonderful! It was a pleasure playing with you this game, Urist. I am thoroughly excited! And thank you for adding me to your list as well, Max.
Post by: webadict on August 15, 2011, 09:44:13 pm
Sorry about the relentless arguing there, Webadict. No hard feelings, I hope?I will hate you for all of eternity. Because Mafia is SERIOUS BUSINESS!!! At least the real one is.
Why would I care? It's a game, right? And I also won, so double win.
Post by: Max White on August 15, 2011, 09:45:10 pm
Jc, should such a thing happen, perhaps you would be interested in being the co-mod? This is a learning game, and we need new mods as well as players, so if your going to be reading the game you might as well be useful to me, and seeing a birds eye view of the entire game can be very handy for learning.
That is, if I do end up being the mod, there is always somebody wanting these games.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 15, 2011, 09:48:03 pm
Sorry about the relentless arguing there, Webadict. No hard feelings, I hope?I will hate you for all of eternity. Because Mafia is SERIOUS BUSINESS!!! At least the real one is.
Why would I care? It's a game, right? And I also won, so double win.
How do you think I did in attacking you, by the way? And Bd?
Post by: jc6036 on August 15, 2011, 09:50:14 pm
Post by: billybobfred on August 15, 2011, 09:51:31 pm
Post by: Vector on August 15, 2011, 09:55:29 pm
How do you think I did in attacking you, by the way? And Bd?
I'd say your attacks on Web were a bit hollow and WIFOMy, frankly.
Post by: Reverie on August 15, 2011, 10:01:13 pm
Post by: jc6036 on August 15, 2011, 10:02:07 pm
Post by: Max White on August 15, 2011, 10:02:43 pm
Post by: Reverie on August 15, 2011, 10:06:12 pm
This must be the best bit of the job for an IC...Are you being sarcastic, Max? Don't make me go over there and ask you how I did, too!
Post by: Vector on August 15, 2011, 10:08:39 pm
Then you'll be much better players.
Post by: Max White on August 15, 2011, 10:12:11 pm
Are you being sarcastic, Max? Don't make me go over there and ask you how I did, too!Not sarcastic, just said with a grin.
I think you did well, anyway, for a first game at least. Coming in as a replace isn't easy, but you made the most of it, and you made a sensible choice for a protect. You need a bit of practise building a case on somebody for yourself, but that will come with time. Another game or two and you will might be kicking ass in the major league. Be bold, be strong, and be direct.
I'm hoping for Jim as an IC next game, he will be the prefect role model for you, plus he has sexy hair.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 15, 2011, 10:12:28 pm
Post by: jc6036 on August 15, 2011, 10:13:39 pm
Post by: Vector on August 15, 2011, 10:14:56 pm
Was my case with Bd better?
It isn't hard to build a case on BD.
Like I said, your posts generally suffer from a lack of direct head-to-head aggression, and too much displayed speculation. Speculate as much as you like. Don't let everyone know about it.
I'm hoping for Jim as an IC next game, he will be the prefect role model for you, plus he has sexy hair.
Thanks, Max >_>
Just gonna say, bro, when you're always hoping for one particular IC it doesn't make it seem like you much value the ones you have.
Post by: Max White on August 15, 2011, 10:18:31 pm
:P
I just love Jim's hair! And one day he is going to file a restraining order, and it will mean NOTHING!!! Messing with him is, of coarse, my favourite past time.
It is sort of a shame you have already said you were going to sit out though, Vector, I liked the Jim/Vector combo, for it's contract offered, it worked well.
Post by: Vector on August 15, 2011, 10:25:15 pm
Well, depending on when it starts and how many games I'm in, I'll think about it =) I just can't play more than two at a time right now, really. I've got so much other stuff to do, especially during the school year.
And yeah, I do think that Jim and I play off each other fairly well. Thanks for that.
Post by: Reverie on August 15, 2011, 10:29:12 pm
Post by: Max White on August 15, 2011, 10:32:45 pm
*sigh*
Well, depending on when it starts and how many games I'm in, I'll think about it =) I just can't play more than two at a time right now, really. I've got so much other stuff to do, especially during the school year.
And yeah, I do think that Jim and I play off each other fairly well. Thanks for that.
Well you do have your studies, and those are important. I know your a positive force here, we all do, so don't think you need to sign up as IC to prove it if you don't have the time.
Post by: webadict on August 15, 2011, 10:59:34 pm
What?!?!? Sorry, I meant not to offend! I love my IC's, and you did a good job, a great job! If you haven't noticed, you just pulled the town to a d2 win... You, Irony, Webba and LNCP all did a good job, and I thank you for giving up some of your time to help.Don't you think you're making Jim's life rough?
:P
I just love Jim's hair! And one day he is going to file a restraining order, and it will mean NOTHING!!! Messing with him is, of coarse, my favourite past time.
It is sort of a shame you have already said you were going to sit out though, Vector, I liked the Jim/Vector combo, for it's contract offered, it worked well.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 15, 2011, 11:13:31 pm
<must....fight....urge....to....chain...puns....>What?!?!? Sorry, I meant not to offend! I love my IC's, and you did a good job, a great job! If you haven't noticed, you just pulled the town to a d2 win... You, Irony, Webba and LNCP all did a good job, and I thank you for giving up some of your time to help.Don't you think you're making Jim's life rough?
:P
I just love Jim's hair! And one day he is going to file a restraining order, and it will mean NOTHING!!! Messing with him is, of coarse, my favourite past time.
It is sort of a shame you have already said you were going to sit out though, Vector, I liked the Jim/Vector combo, for it's contract offered, it worked well.
Post by: billybobfred on August 15, 2011, 11:15:38 pm
<must....fight....urge....to....chain...puns....>Hey, don't restrain yourself.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 15, 2011, 11:18:55 pm
<must....fight....urge....to....chain...puns....>Hey, don't restrain yourself.
Don't you dare try and rope me into this.
Post by: Max White on August 15, 2011, 11:20:40 pm
Don't you think you're making Jim's life rough?
Na, he is Jim! I'm sure he... Ooh! Heh, thanks spell check.
Post by: billybobfred on August 15, 2011, 11:37:08 pm
Too late, you already have ties to the pun.<must....fight....urge....to....chain...puns....>Hey, don't restrain yourself.
Don't you dare try and rope me into this.
Post by: webadict on August 15, 2011, 11:50:13 pm
Knot again!Too late, you already have ties to the pun.<must....fight....urge....to....chain...puns....>Hey, don't restrain yourself.
Don't you dare try and rope me into this.
Post by: IronyOwl on August 16, 2011, 12:30:11 am
Post by: Max White on August 16, 2011, 12:41:26 am
Flavour text in production. Opinions?
Quote
Vindicator III, one of the most advanced research submarines ever build, designed to study aquatic life around lava vents in the pacific ocean, was going to be a pinnacle for marine biology research for many years to come. It's team of ten members, although small, were selected from some of the most elite scientists in relevant fields. That was until things got complicated.
First few lines of the opening of the first day, does it spark any interest?
Post by: billybobfred on August 16, 2011, 12:49:07 am
It's true, I wouldn't string you along.Knot again!Too late, you already have ties to the pun.<must....fight....urge....to....chain...puns....>Hey, don't restrain yourself.
Don't you dare try and rope me into this.
Post by: Vector on August 16, 2011, 12:49:36 am
*Tap tap tap*
Flavour text in production. Opinions?QuoteVindicator III, one of the most advanced research submarines ever build, designed to study aquatic life around lava vents in the pacific ocean, was going to be a pinnacle for marine biology research for many years to come. It's team of ten members, although small, were selected from some of the most elite scientists in relevant fields. That was until things got complicated.
First few lines of the opening of the first day, does it spark any interest?
Yes, this is cool. Do et.
Post by: jc6036 on August 16, 2011, 12:56:55 am
Post by: Max White on August 16, 2011, 12:58:43 am
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 16, 2011, 02:02:57 am
Post by: Max White on August 16, 2011, 02:04:05 am
Post by: Jack A T on August 16, 2011, 02:07:29 am
Just to make sure, we don't have any infocom fans here, do we?
I'm one.
Post by: Max White on August 16, 2011, 02:08:38 am
Post by: Darvi on August 16, 2011, 02:48:19 am
YES I WANTED TO SAY THAT THE ENTIRE TIME!
Post by: Max White on August 16, 2011, 03:04:09 am
vote bdthemag, since statistics state he will be scum!
... :D
Classic. The random number gods must really like Bd.
Post by: Simple on August 16, 2011, 06:45:10 am
Post by: Max White on August 16, 2011, 06:49:35 am
Yea, there are times when it will get you through the day, but chances are if you try lurking in lylo your going to get destroyed for it, and any other time it isn't a good long term plan.
Post by: billybobfred on August 16, 2011, 11:30:11 am
Hmm it appears that lurking is good scum tactic after all..
Really? The only reason I suspected Bd was because he was... well, I guess I suspected him because he was dodgy more than anything. Mere lurking probably would have looked less weird than all that avoidance he did.
Post by: jc6036 on August 16, 2011, 11:48:50 am
Post by: lordnincompoop on August 16, 2011, 04:00:28 pm
Yay! We won ! I have not expected that it will end this quickly after D1 :P Not sure if i were any help to the town but it was fun fir sure. Hmm it appears that lurking is good scum tactic after all.. Well,something to remember for later. So, how i did overall? I feel like i done nothing d2, bleh.
Lurking is never a good tactic. This should be painfully obvious by the fact that this is the hitherto best town victory so far.
The entire scumteam consisted of lurkers, and there was little effort to remedy that. I know that will probably come off as mean, but it's true.
For the scumteam, I'd suggest reading through and doing what I've repeated several times in scumchat, and to start playing the game. Even if you managed to get through parts of the day, doing so via hardcore lurking isn't something to be proud of.
Post by: Urist_McArathos on August 16, 2011, 11:00:08 pm