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Dwarf Fortress => DF General Discussion => Topic started by: MiniMacker on July 21, 2011, 03:11:52 am

Title: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: MiniMacker on July 21, 2011, 03:11:52 am
I've got a quick question about many of the gigantic animals around my embarks.

In their descriptions, they are regarded as gigantic animals capable of defending themselves. The elephants with their tusks (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Elephant), hippoes that are deadly and aggressive when disturbed (http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Hippo).

I tried sending my little militia captain to take on a massive herd of elephants. He was armed with simple clothes and a copper short sword. I was expecting him to get critically injured, but the elephants didn't even attempt to defend themselves, they ran and ran. Even when they got cornered, they just ran past Urist McMilitia, allowing him to happily slash their legs and body.


After that laughably easy task, I got curious and sent him into a herd of nearby hippoes, bathing in the stream. Same story, they ran. Urist McElephantDundee managed to kill a hippo before the rest ran off over the stream to the other side and just sat there, afraid to go anywhere.


What is this. I don't even.


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Is there a better tag I can use than [PRONE_TO_RAGE:1]? It has the unpleasant side-effect of making them run after my dwarves that just happen to pass them 15 tiles away.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: frodo0800 on July 21, 2011, 06:22:29 am
male elephants during certain times in the year are extremely prone to get enraged,this is what creates that videos in india of an elephant entering in the middle of a marriage and killing everybody
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: MiniMacker on July 21, 2011, 06:42:48 am
Mmhm, I'm not saying they should be the frantic killing machines of old, but I want them to at least fight back if they're facing a three foot man with a pointy stick.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: Jelle on July 21, 2011, 09:37:37 am
Have to agree, I have been hunting elepehants on m y latest embark and they are total pushovers. I've never played an embark with elephants in the olden  times of boatmurdered style elephant rampage, and while it sounds like it was excessive I'd at least expect them to defend themselves when provoked.
Let me take a look and see if anything can be done about this, naturally you don't want them attacking things in sight, only attack things that pose a threat.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: Jelle on July 21, 2011, 09:46:24 am
Right so the problem is they always flee when faced with combat. What if elephants had both [BENIGN] and [LIKES_FIGHTING]?
Would that make them not actively seek out combat, but when faced with something that would make them flee they'd attack?
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: MonkeyHead on July 21, 2011, 10:28:11 am
Or possibly run at everything before deciding they didnt fancy it and instead run away?
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: MiniMacker on July 21, 2011, 04:00:02 pm
I thought [BENIGN] didn't actually do anything towards their aggressiveness, only their chance to appear in less savage embarks?
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: noodle0117 on July 21, 2011, 09:35:03 pm
Toady should implement a [STAND_GROUND] tag.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: MonkeyHead on July 22, 2011, 02:53:58 am
I have a lot of Rhino's on my current embark. Now, my RL experience of these beasts is they are exceptionally dumb - as in trying to mate with a 4x4 style dumb. Should we have a [STUPID_ANIMAL] tag so they blunder into stuff, kind of an accidental building destroyer that would innocently wander into traps, and ignore dorfs unless "interested" by them for fighting or entertainment? We could even have a polar opposite [CURIOUS_ANIMAL] that would regognise and not step on traps, and like to investigate your structures and mildly harrass dorfs for food/drink.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: frodo0800 on July 22, 2011, 06:10:01 am
giant eagles are cowards too,one of my embarks,where i fisrt encountered them, i've thought "o shit run to the hills"
but my novice hunter went there and bang! just one bolt in one of the wings and it was dead.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on July 22, 2011, 08:23:13 am
Well, duh, how easy is it to fly if your wings don't work?
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: MiniMacker on July 22, 2011, 05:28:57 pm
Well, maybe this gigantic monstrosity of an eagle was supposed to swoop down and eat the dwarf for lunch, then still have room enough for some snacks at the trade depot.

There's not anything dangerous at all in the Untamed Wilds. The only thing I can think of are badgers, but they appear everywhere.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: Agent_Irons on July 22, 2011, 07:05:29 pm
Quote from: frodo0800 on July 22, 2011, 06:10:01 am
giant eagles are cowards too,one of my embarks,where i fisrt encountered them, i've thought "o shit run to the hills"
but my novice hunter went there and bang! just one bolt in one of the wings and it was dead.
This is probably a lucky shot. Flying creatures are pretty vulnerable to being shot in the flying apparati, because plunging to earth generally offends.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: Greiger on July 22, 2011, 07:48:45 pm
I think [LIKES_FIGHTING] may make them more aggressive, but I haven't done any actual testing with that tag in a few major releases.  It seems to make civ races more aggressive at any rate. And my peasants and only my peasants (wild animals technically have the peasant job) will often attack invaders they see instead of fleeing, leading me to believe it may still make wild animals more aggressive.

They also appear to become more aggressive when chased into a deadend while underground.  But that may just be due to the cramped conditions.  They only seem to fight back if cornered, and it seems that all they need is a single unoccupied tile that can be pathed through for them to not consider themselves cornered, and the way fleeing pathing appears to work, they probably only check for it once every 30 or so ticks too.  Making cornering them in the wilderness very difficult.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: GreatWyrmGold on July 22, 2011, 10:44:00 pm
Quote from: MiniMacker on July 22, 2011, 05:28:57 pm
Well, maybe this gigantic monstrosity of an eagle was supposed to swoop down and eat the dwarf for lunch, then still have room enough for some snacks at the trade depot.
Once again, it's hard to fly of your wings have been SHOT OUT BY AN ALCOHOLIC MIDGET.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: ImBocaire on July 23, 2011, 01:51:13 am
Maybe so, if wings actually did anything in DF related to flying. A flier with both wings severed can still fly, as my arena mode tests have shown.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: IT 000 on July 23, 2011, 01:54:22 am
This is because of the redundant [FLIER] tag. The wings have the tag. This allows the creature to fly if it has wings. But the creature itself has the tag too. So even without wings it can still fly. Removing the creature's [FLIER] tag should fix this.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: Greiger on July 23, 2011, 09:17:01 am
Wait what?  That doesn't seem right, from my own messing around the flier tag on wings just in dictates that is related to the flier tag in the same way stance parts are related to walking and saw it behaving that way many times in fortress mode.

Yea, I just confirmed, (my custom fortress race is using vanilla wings that have the flier tag. They can't fly in adventure mode or fortress mode.) flier on wings without the flier tag IS NOT enough to allow a creature to fly.  The bodypart flier tag and the creature flier tag are two entirely different things.

And I just ran an arena mode test myself and an eagle with both wings disabled cannot fly.  Proof to follow.

Spoiler: Eagle with both wings disabled (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Eagle health status clearly stating that the eagle with heavy damage to both wings cannot fly. (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Gamelog from the test (click to show/hide)

With all due respect.  That information is wrong.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: MiniMacker on July 23, 2011, 11:34:46 am
I was not aware of that, Greiger. Nice find.

Going back to the original topic, elephants, hippoes or anything massive whom never defends themselves. The Magma Wiki states that
Quote
LIKES_FIGHTING       The creature will attack enemies rather than flee from them. This tag has the same effect on player-controlled creatures - included modded dwarves.

The wiki has been incorrect before, but I'm going to go ahead and add [LIKES_FIGHTING] to many of the mentioned beasts. I'm wondering if it will conflict with any other tag, causing weird schizophrenic behaviour? Or if they will attack other wildlife?
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: Caldfir on July 24, 2011, 12:49:43 am
I suspect combining [LIKES_FIGHTING] with [VIEWRANGE:1] will result in the desired effect.  Someone less lazy than I should test this.

edit: preliminary testing in the arena yields promising results

The elephants ignored everything until it came right up to them, at which time they were thoroughly stomped on.  Requires testing in actual game modes though. 
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: Caldfir on July 24, 2011, 01:16:10 am
Alright, "Caldfir Hairdrinkers" made a trip to the "Tactical Jungles" (I swear that name is legit).  Results are... mostly OK I guess?  Elephants act like angry guys who can't see anything, but this is a lot like standing their ground.  I think [VIEWRANGE:3] would result in them acting slightly less insane.  My battle with the elephant went as follows:

I saw an elephant (several actually, so I picked one).  I walked up to it.  At 2 squares away it did nothing.  Walking right up to the elephant alerted it to my presence, and it charged at me.  I dodged.  Elephant rushes past... and since it is 2 squares past me just keeps kinda running around for a bit.  Not at me or anything, just... around. 

Repeated encounters were similar.  As mentioned above, I think I will try again with [VIEWRANGE:3] and see if I like that better.  I think I might just add this makeshift "stands ground" tag to everything that makes sense.   In fort mode, elephant deaths would be rare, since dwarves will see and run from elephants before elephants even notice dwarves in almost all cases.  This will make more sense than the straight-up boatmurdered elephants that simply adding [LIKES_FIGHTING] would create. 
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: Caldfir on July 24, 2011, 01:51:57 am
Alright, something seems to be screwey with [LIKES_FIGHTING], because the elephants could not be persuaded to do battle.  Adding [VIEWRANGE:3] [LIKES_FIGHTING] [PRONE_TO_RAGE:30] together seems to get the job done adequately though. 
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: antymattar on July 24, 2011, 01:54:59 am
Ad the [Enraged-or-whatever] tags to them and make them [Likes fighting]

oh...Thats what the guy above me just said. Sorry.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: MiniMacker on July 24, 2011, 05:24:22 am
Quote from: Caldfir on July 24, 2011, 01:51:57 am
Alright, something seems to be screwey with [LIKES_FIGHTING], because the elephants could not be persuaded to do battle.  Adding [VIEWRANGE:3] [LIKES_FIGHTING] [PRONE_TO_RAGE:30] together seems to get the job done adequately though.

What do you mean "screwey"? Your tests above seems to indicate that it's functionable with the most prominent results.
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: Caldfir on July 24, 2011, 11:45:20 am
When the view range was increased, elephants fled rather than attack.  They only attack if you're stood in the square next to them, regardless of the [LIKES_FIGHTING] tag.  If anyone can get it to work, or knows anything about it I'd be glad to hear about it.  If I can't get it working I'll probably head over to the bug tracker. 
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: MiniMacker on July 25, 2011, 08:37:47 am
Well, reading up on tokens, what would happen if you gave them [NO_FEAR] or mixed mentioned tokens with it? Or would it become too Boatmurdered, if we did that?
Title: Re: Question about Elephants, Hippoes and anything massive.
Post by: Caldfir on July 25, 2011, 02:18:10 pm
let me try [NOFEAR]

edit: no effect - going to try generating a new world, and if I have no luck, will start asking around the mod board

edit: still nothing