Bay 12 Games Forum

Dwarf Fortress => DF Suggestions => Topic started by: Detonate on August 05, 2011, 11:27:24 am

Title: Armor padding
Post by: Detonate on August 05, 2011, 11:27:24 am
Right now, to help reduce injury to soldiers, we give them layers upon layers of cloaks, clothing, and robes. This should not happen. Historically, to add additional protection, Medieval soldiers wore padded cloth jackets called gambesons or akeltons. These were made out of wool or linen, and unless a quilting skill is added, would be made by weavers. These could be worn separately by a soldier, or worn under mail or plate. They would cover the upper body, the lower body, the upper and lower arms, and the lower legs.

Buff coats could be another form of padding, however these aren't true to the time period that Dwarf Fortress represents, as they are from the 17th century. They would be made of leather and would provide protection to the arms, body, and upper legs. A buff coat could be worn with a breastplate (or a cuirass. if they are implemented) and a helmet, gauntlets, and greaves. It wouldn't be much different than the leather padding we use on our soldiers currently, if you are worried about authenticity. I honestly cannot imagine a soldier wearing layers of robes and cloaks over their armor, it just seems silly in the way currently presented.
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: nanomage on August 05, 2011, 12:07:40 pm
can it be modded? wouldn't raising the amount of body space occupied by common clothing and adding new padded clothing work?(with armor tag, as they seem military only from your text)
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: Neonivek on August 05, 2011, 01:24:46 pm
Quote
This should not happen. Historically

Actually some cultures did use layers upon layers of clothing for protection. Such as the Japanese.

There are more examples I can think of... but they are a bit further then the 1400s (such as during the War of Independence)
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: chuckthegr8 on August 05, 2011, 02:56:42 pm
Some Mayan/Aztecs apparently wore padded armor, because I saw this show where they explain how a padded shirt can stop an arrow as well as a breastplate with its interweaving.

So would you just order X shirts to be interwoven into one padded shirt? Or take 1 Shirt and add cloth to make a padded shirt armor?
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: Detonate on August 05, 2011, 04:03:23 pm
Quote from: chuckthegr8 on August 05, 2011, 02:56:42 pm
Some Mayan/Aztecs apparently wore padded armor, because I saw this show where they explain how a padded shirt can stop an arrow as well as a breastplate with its interweaving.

So would you just order X shirts to be interwoven into one padded shirt? Or take 1 Shirt and add cloth to make a padded shirt armor?

The Incas wore padded armor as well. Honestly, I haven't really thought out how padding should be produced. I would have the gambeson itself be made as a separate item (clothesmaker skill) with 3 cloth, then stuffed with X cloth. The gambeson could be made out of wool cloth, with the stuffing being made out of any material.
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: chuckthegr8 on August 05, 2011, 04:52:51 pm
STUFF IT WITH CATS!
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: sockless on August 06, 2011, 07:09:52 pm
Well silk used to be used a lot as armour.

Silk is incredibly strong, but is quite thin, so if you layer many layers of tight weave silk together, you can get a very strong piece of armour. The silk vest can be so strong, that it can stop a bullet (or at least an 1800s one), which means that it would probably stop an arrow as well.
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: Funk on August 06, 2011, 09:18:24 pm
geting the game to read how thick the paddings material, is the hard part.
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: kilakan on August 06, 2011, 09:30:30 pm
Quote from: sockless on August 06, 2011, 07:09:52 pm
Well silk used to be used a lot as armour.

Silk is incredibly strong, but is quite thin, so if you layer many layers of tight weave silk together, you can get a very strong piece of armour. The silk vest can be so strong, that it can stop a bullet (or at least an 1800s one), which means that it would probably stop an arrow as well.
Not necessarily arrows have a far better cutting edge where-as bullets rely more on blunt force.  What's more then likely to happen is that a powerful, direct hit arrow would slice through the silk and cut into you but lose at least a good amount of force into the tunic.  And a crossbow bolt MADE to pierce armor would barely be slowed.
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: SuicideJunkie on August 07, 2011, 11:41:46 pm
I thought I heard that one of the benefits of the silk was that even though you got an arrow in you, with the silk wrapped around the point it could be pulled out safely and be survivable.
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: KillHour on August 08, 2011, 07:06:59 pm
That's the case with silkworm silk, but Dwarves use spider silk, which is closer to kevlar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider_silk#Properties).
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: Stormcloudy on August 09, 2011, 02:07:21 pm
Strand for strand, spider silk has more tensile strength than steel. A pencil-thick rope stretched across a runway can prevent a 747 in full taxi from taking off.

I think it's somewhat less useful as a deflector and such, but it definitely can absorb some impact.
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: iron_general on August 09, 2011, 06:51:46 pm
Kevlar stops bullets because they deform, thus expending energy. A more rigid projectile, like and arrow, would cut through it easily. The same goes for blades.
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: Jake on August 09, 2011, 07:53:45 pm
Quote from: iron_general on August 09, 2011, 06:51:46 pm
Kevlar stops bullets because they deform, thus expending energy. A more rigid projectile, like and arrow, would cut through it easily. The same goes for blades.
So wear the padded silk armour in conjunction with rigid metal plate, which is how modern ballistic vests deal with rounds capable of penetrating Kevlar.
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: iron_general on August 10, 2011, 08:01:39 pm
I was just pointing out an inaccuracy. I support this idea.
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: Dynastia on September 05, 2011, 12:38:01 pm
Adding my support to this, with this suggestion...

- Quilted armor pieces are created for the legs, upper body and head, along with chainmail pieces for parts that don't already have them (coifs and mittens, while chausses and leggings are made explicitly chain and no longer SHAPED). Shoes and non-metal boots are no longer SHAPED, to allow a dorf to wear metal boots over shoes/leather boots.

- Wearing chainmail without a quilted armor piece underneath (or leather, for the hands and feet) results in minor edge damage with every strike. Something like "The goblin swordsman strikes the dwarf in the upper body with the iron short sword, but the attack is deflected by the iron mail shirt. The iron mail shirt is jammed into the upper body, tearing the skin and bruising the fat"

- Wearing plate without chain underneath results in slightly worse injuries. "The goblin swordsman strikes the dwarf in the head with the iron short sword, but the attack is deflected by the steel helm. The steel helm is jammed into the head, tearing apart the upper lip's skin and bruising the fat, tearing apart the left cheek's skin and bruising the muscle, tearing apart nose's cartilage, tearing apart the left ear's cartilage."

Quote from: iron_general on August 09, 2011, 06:51:46 pm
Kevlar stops bullets because they deform, thus expending energy. A more rigid projectile, like and arrow, would cut through it easily. The same goes for blades.

Arrows won't pierce silk under-armour, but that doesn't protect the person wearing it. Mongols used silk robes to "catch" arrows they were shot with so they could more easily extract them, and reduce the risk of contaminating the wound.
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: Silverionmox on September 05, 2011, 05:42:29 pm
Let padding be a decoration type, technically. I don't think we need another clothes or armour category. Then we could use the ability to define stockpiles based on decorations, however.
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: Funk on September 05, 2011, 07:19:56 pm
my try at makeing padded armor
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

testing has show that it is better than plan leather (a 15 vs 15 duel:
ash bows with 100 iron arrows
iron helm and boots
iron mail shirts,leggings and mittens
team 1 had sheep leather padding, team 2 had plan leather
team 1 only lost 3 men
Title: Re: Armor padding
Post by: tsen on September 05, 2011, 11:08:40 pm
It would be nice if the game respected tensile strength and kinetic energy absorption, that way leather, cloth padding, silk, etc. could all be seamlessly integrated by modders.