Holy shit, it's been an hour and still nobody inned. Interest in PMs is at the all-time low!
Do you do spoilspecs? I'd join, but I'm already in 2 mafias.
Do you do spoilspecs? I'd join, but I'm already in 2 mafias.Breaking at 2 mafias? What a weakling.
That's nothing; I'm breaking at one mafia.Do you do spoilspecs? I'd join, but I'm already in 2 mafias.Breaking at 2 mafias? What a weakling.
In for a co-mod?
In for a co-mod?
Hmm. I suppose if you really want, but I'd rather have more players.
Flavor
Wait, we're in space?
This will be a normal Paranormal game otherwise, correct?
Jim: What do you feel is the biggest threat in the game? Also, you said SPAAAAACE wrong.
Orangebottle: What role would you least like to be?Kook. Being a miller always sucks, because not only do you have zero actions or abilities, but if you claim, nobody trusts you, and if you don't claim and get inspected you get lynched no matter what you say.
Pandarsenic, you've made yourself scarce recently. Are you going to keep yourself scarce?
IronyOwl: Who would you most prefer as a scumbuddy?Hard to say. Normally I'd say Jim, but the prevalence of power roles and hostile third parties makes the more obvious choices somewhat risky. I think my top pick would be Orangebottle, since he's good, but probably not well-known enough to be an inspect/kill/follow magnet like Jim, Toaster, etc.
Dariush: Is NUKE scum?YES HE FUCKING IS! RIGHT, NUKE?!
Dariush. I'm really tired of your meta with NUKE. Give me a good reason as to why I shouldn't lynch you right now.Because that would be an insanely idiotic thing to do?
Also, tell me what you'd do if NUKE were your scumpartner this game.I'd probably limit myself to just a bit of traditional bussing while seeking out other targets. The 'bus each other until stars fall down' didn't work that awesomely in OM.
Orangebottle, what's this meta you're referring to?Dariush always tunnels NUKE, usually with pretty terrible reasoning.
Shakerag: This is your first Paranormal, correct? Have you read any previous ones if so?Yes, this is my first one. I can't specifically remember if I've read one before (as I've read a number of past games) but I've certainly familiarized myself with the roles/rules.
MBP: When you arrive (Friday, I think you said...) what is the first thing you're going to do?
Oops, forgot to unvote.
Dariush: It depends. As a human, I'd prefer to be an Intelligence Scientist because I like knowing what other people are up to. As a dopp, I'd rather be a Cutting-edge Scientist because of the body double.
Leafsnail:Let's say you're a human war veteran. When would you claim?Oh hey, that's a subtle way of asking me whether it's safe to kill me tonight.
Leafsnail, preferred scumbuddies? What scumteam would you most fear as town?Jim, Toaster, NativeForeigner. Jim and Toaster because they're good and keep complete control over the game, NativeForeigner because he seems to be able to do absolutely anything and still avoid getting lynched. Ideally Native would have an Assassin Bot and would immediately use it when the first town PR claims.
Nuke and Joker: Which of you hates RVS more?Me, I do. I hate RVS the most.
Nuke, let's say you're a mad scientist. For each variety, which tech do you think you'd pick as town, and which as scum?Military: Assassin Bot for town, Sentries for scum.
Nuke, are you going to propose a no-lynch on D1 again? Why?No. Also, try to refrain from referring to games in progress.
Shakerag: If you were me, and you wanted to end the RVS ASAP, what would you do to make that happen?
You're reading way too fucking far into that question. Why are you getting so defensive over a simple RVS question?Leafsnail:Let's say you're a human war veteran. When would you claim?Oh hey, that's a subtle way of asking me whether it's safe to kill me tonight.
I refuse to answer this question, Orangebottle. It's rolefishing, and rolefishing for the role that Doppelgangers would like to identify the most.
:|Dariush: Is NUKE scum?YES HE FUCKING IS! RIGHT, NUKE?!
So basically, you wouldn't change your play at all?Also, tell me what you'd do if NUKE were your scumpartner this game.I'd probably limit myself to just a bit of traditional bussing while seeking out other targets. The 'bus each other until stars fall down' didn't work that awesomely in OM.
No. Also, try to refrain from referring to games in progress.This is... strangely... sane. Oh well. Unvote.
Why: Because it doesn't make sense in an open setup in which we know (roughly) what levels of power to expect.
So basically, you wouldn't change your play at all?It's 49th reply in the thread, signups and all, and you're already starting to twist my words! I specifically said 'NO. I WOULDN'T do as I did last time'. Oh what the fuck OB, you're slipping on your own RVS question.
Nuke and Joker: Which of you hates RVS more?Me, I do. I hate RVS the most.
It's 49th reply in the thread, signups and all, and you're already starting to twist my words! I specifically said 'NO. I WOULDN'T do as I did last time'. Oh what the fuck OB, you're slipping on your own RVS question.
I was referring to your usual play, not what happened in Ockham's. Maybe I should've made that clearer.So basically, you wouldn't change your play at all?It's 49th reply in the thread, signups and all, and you're already starting to twist my words! I specifically said 'NO. I WOULDN'T do as I did last time'. Oh what the fuck OB, you're slipping on your own RVS question.
You're reading way too fucking far into that question. Why are you getting so defensive over a simple RVS question?I'm not being defensive, I'm just pointing out that your question is flagrant rolefishing that no decent townie would want to answer.
I ended a year long break so that I could shout at people for using it. Your so-called hatred is just fear, you snivelling coward. Man up and FIGHT THE POWAH.Uhh, no. That would be me. I hate RVS so much that I took a break from playing so that I wouldn't have to see its ugly face. SO YOU SHUT UP.Nuke and Joker: Which of you hates RVS more?Me, I do. I hate RVS the most.
Hmm.Shakerag: If you were me, and you wanted to end the RVS ASAP, what would you do to make that happen?
Well, it seems like, historically, if you were to mention anything about your RVS philosophy that usually seemed to do the trick.
Although, I've seen claiming that you're a day-JoaT and inspect someone as a Mafia Watcher achieve that goal pretty well too.
I'm not being defensive, I'm just pointing out that your question is flagrant rolefishing that no decent townie would want to answer.What makes my question rolefishing over, say...
McArathos, you're an Agent. You get a PM from someone claiming to be the Agent Operative. What do you do?
Nuke, let's say you're a mad scientist. For each variety, which tech do you think you'd pick as town, and which as scum?those?
What? Where? Show me where you specifically said that; certainly not in the post that OrangeBottle quoted.
I'd probably limit myself to just a bit of traditional bussing while seeking out other targets. The 'bus each other until stars fall down' didn't work that awesomely in OM.A slightest bit of applied logic would reveal that 1) if I say a strategy didn't work well last time I wouldn't repeat it 2) 'a bit of traditional bussing' != what I did in OM, therefore I will not use the same strategy. Really, I've said the same thing two different ways, specifically for the mentally challenged (wink-wink, OB).
So, you imply that 'a bit of traditional bussing' is my usual way of dealing with Nuke, as opposed to the full-on crap-attack from OM. Nice to know. Unvote.I was referring to your usual play, not what happened in Ockham's. Maybe I should've made that clearer.So basically, you wouldn't change your play at all?It's 49th reply in the thread, signups and all, and you're already starting to twist my words! I specifically said 'NO. I WOULDN'T do as I did last time'. Oh what the fuck OB, you're slipping on your own RVS question.
What makes my question rolefishing over, say...Firstly what you're doing is deflection ("I'm not gonna say why what I'm doing isn't bad, but these people are doing something vaguely similar. That makes it ok, right??").McArathos, you're an Agent. You get a PM from someone claiming to be the Agent Operative. What do you do?Nuke, let's say you're a mad scientist. For each variety, which tech do you think you'd pick as town, and which as scum?those?
Dariush. I'm really tired of your meta with NUKE. Give me a good reason as to why I shouldn't lynch you right now. Also, tell me what you'd do if NUKE were your scumpartner this game.
Cutting Edge: Body double for both.Why this over mind control?
Why unvote without a follow up vote, or question, or anything? 75% of your questions had been answered, so don't try to tell me you're just waiting on the last.
Shakerag: If you were me, and you wanted to end the RVS ASAP, what would you do to make that happen?
[acronym=The hypocrisy is palpable. And fully intentional.][/acronym]
Yeah, let me get right on that. While I'm at it, should I just play the rest of the game for you too?Hmm.Shakerag: If you were me, and you wanted to end the RVS ASAP, what would you do to make that happen?
Well, it seems like, historically, if you were to mention anything about your RVS philosophy that usually seemed to do the trick.
Although, I've seen claiming that you're a day-JoaT and inspect someone as a Mafia Watcher achieve that goal pretty well too.
-My RVS philosophy.
-I am a day-JoaT. Shakerag is a Mafia Watcher.
...yeah, I don't think thats going to work. Come on, man. Give me something I can actually work with. Don't make me turn that pressure vote into a lynch vote.
Body double is always useful. It can never go wrong.Cutting Edge: Body double for both.Why this over mind control?
See nested quote's helpfully broken acronym tags.Shakerag: If you were me, and you wanted to end the RVS ASAP, what would you do to make that happen?What happened to your railing against the RVS? Why are you participating this time?
[acronym=The hypocrisy is palpable. And fully intentional.][/acronym]
Orright, I warned you. That vote? Sticking to you like glue, you SCUM BASTARD....yeah, I don't think thats going to work. Come on, man. Give me something I can actually work with. Don't make me turn that pressure vote into a lynch vote.Yeah, let me get right on that. While I'm at it, should I just play the rest of the game for you too?
Why unvote without a follow up vote, or question, or anything? 75% of your questions had been answered, so don't try to tell me you're just waiting on the last.
I made that post right before I left for class.
Orright, I warned you. That vote? Sticking to you like glue, you SCUM BASTARD.
Heh heh heh heh heh.
But seriously give me something to work with.
Why was it important enough to unvote, but not important enough to move on to another target?
Leafsnail: While I can understand and follow your logic, do you really think OB's question was a sly rolefishing attempt as opposed to a random RVS question?I do think so, yes. It comes down partly to his reaction (deflection isn't a good start).
Leafsnail: Totem notwithstanding, did you learn anything useful for Mafia in your absence?I've learnt how to play better in face-to-face mafia to some degree, although that tends to rely on different skills (you have to be much quicker to think, and similarly scumhunting can rely on putting people on the spot). I suppose that would be useful for responding to and applying pressure, though.
Firstly what you're doing is deflection ("I'm not gonna say why what I'm doing isn't bad, but these people are doing something vaguely similar. That makes it ok, right??").I know exactly why rolefishing is bad, but I don't think it's rolefishing. See below.
Secondly, the difference is that neither Jim nor IronyOwl's question would actually give you any information about whether they hold the role. I can answer a question about in which I am hypothetically an agent or a mad scientist without giving any indication as to whether I am that role or not.And if you lie about it, or say that you wouldn't claim?
However, your question is completely different. Let's say I said "I would claim before night one to make sure no townies target me". Tonight, if I haven't claimed, you know I'm not a PWV and I'm a safe kill. It would be the same for any other condition - if the condition I give passes ("On day 2", "After someone claims they're gonna inspect me" or whatever) then it'd become obvious that I am not a PWV and I am a safe kill. In other words, I cannot answer your question without giving you information about whether or not I am a PWV. Hence it is rolefishing.
And if you lie about it, or say that you wouldn't claim?So you're saying that your question is good and not rolefishing if I either ignore your question or lie in response to your question. Man, it was a good question. You could make the same argument about the question "What is your role?".
I'm just trying to figure out how you would handle this situation. Because, using that reasoning to NK you(were I scum) would just be me gulping down wine. Making it useless to use this question for rolefishing.Wine doesn't apply if you know the player is not a doppelganger.
Why was it important enough to unvote, but not important enough to move on to another target?
It wasn't a matter of importance. I saw that I had forgotten to unvote about five minutes before I had to leave, so I just made a quick post.
Wine doesn't apply if you know the player is not a doppelganger.In the hypothetical situation we're speaking about, with you being a PWV and answering
"I would claim before night one to make sure no townies target me", which would confirm that you're not a PWV by night one. But that's what you want the scum to think, because you want them targeting you and getting themselves killed.
Wine doesn't apply if you know the player is not a doppelganger.In the hypothetical situation we're speaking about, with you being a PWV and answering
"I would claim before night one to make sure no townies target me", which would confirm that you're not a PWV by night one. But that's what you want the scum to think, because you want them targeting you and getting themselves killed.
Dariush. I'm really tired of your meta with NUKE. Give me a good reason as to why I shouldn't lynch you right now. Also, tell me what you'd do if NUKE were your scumpartner this game.
Pandarsenic, you've made yourself scarce recently. Are you going to keep yourself scarce?
I am not.
Shark: What do you think of the whole Dariush/NUKE meta?
Now, what sort of stupid shit should I try to pull this game?
Jim: How does everyone wanting to be your scumbuddy affect your play?
Jack A T: Let's say you are one of five players left. One is an Exterminator and one is a dopp. Which would you rather hang first, or would you rather no lynch and hope at least one shoots the other?
Jack : Wich tech would you choose as an exterminator and why?*Medium item: Assassin bot, for use on the morning of LYLO if my bomb doesn't work. Or in an emergency earlier.
Jack, suppose your scumhunting and someone's inspection is in disagreement over whether or not somebody's scum. Which would you trust more?Whether I trust the investigator depends largely on how scummy I consider the investigator. If the investigator is quite scummy, I'm not going to trust his results. If the investigator is quite town-like, I'm mostly going to trust his results, though I'll still be careful about completely trusting them. However, in general, I will put actual scumhunting above inspections, as even a confirmed townie's inspection can be screwed around with (holoform modulators, for example).
Jack A T: Hypothetical situation time: You have one more vote than the person you're voting and are about to be lynched. What would you do?Keep on fighting. Poke holes in the attacks on me and keep on attacking my target. If someone else becomes scummier than my target, go for that person. Keep on playing rather normally. If getting overly close to being lynched, claim and give any data I have: if I must die, I might as well leave the town with as much info as possible.
Shark, least favorite scum team, and why.Anyone with a lot of experience, because it can be very hard to read them. People like you, irony, toaster(don't know much about him, but he has been a beginners mafia IC and he said that his scum game is far better than his town game)
Shark, let's say you're a scum PWV. Would you try to deliberately draw actions onto yourself to make use of it, or just play as normal with an added layer of protection?I looked through the rolelist again, but I don't know what PWV means. I'm assuming from what you said something good happens when people target me with actions. (is this like, a scum war vet?) However, I would probably just play as normal because I don't think i'm good enough to try and draw actions toward me without drawing a lot of suspicion. Also, if the people who did use actions on me failed/died, and i'm the one who goaded them into it, people would easily be able to figure out what I am.
Shark: How do you plan to win this game?Not sure if i'm overthinking it, but I think this question is rolefishing, because to answer, the person answering has to talk about their win conditions. I don't really like to answer that kind of question. But my general plan across all games that I've developed is that no matter what team, is to never overreact to things, it never works. Otherwise, I wing it based on role and situation. I don't have much experience so i'm still experimenting with playstyles.
Orangebottle, are you requesting a replacement?OB has made the same post in all games he's in, so I guess that he's indeed requesting a replacement.
Dariush, do you consider anger to be a scumtell, towntell, or something else?Depending on the meta of the angerer, either a scumtell or a nulltell.
What about ignoring stupid or pointless questions?Ignoring any questions is always a scumtell. (except if the answerer legitimately missed them) Telling the questioner to go fuck himself for a stupid question, however, is either a scumtell or a nulltell depending on whether the question is actually stupid.
This is a strange attitude to have coming out of the gate. Why did you open this way? You're not Dariush or NUKE9.13, so what do you care if they fight each other?I'm having a hard time answering this question, and I have no idea why. Probably because I was just winging it to promote discussion, but something tells me that's wrong too.
Orangebottle: I really don't like being ignored (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2821014#msg2821014).Wow. I didn't even see that.
Orangebottle: So basically, your question is not rolefishing because people can lie? That's...wow. Also, what exactly were you trying to get with that question?Essentially. I was trying to figure out how Leafsnail would use the PWV role. It lets me learn a bit about how he thinks.
Also, you vote dariush because... you don't like his meta? It was RVS, but still, give a person a chance in a new game!Yes. You're acting like that's the only reason I voted for him; I was also applying pressure and asking him questions. Why? Also, why do you care that I was pressuring Dariush?
Shark, least favorite scum team, and why.Anyone with a lot of experience, because it can be very hard to read them. People like you, irony, toaster(don't know much about him, but he has been a beginners mafia IC and he said that his scum game is far better than his town game)
Orangebottle: So basically, your question is not rolefishing because people can lie? That's...wow. Also, what exactly were you trying to get with that question?
Orangebottle, what is this? The instant people begin to vote you, instead of explaining yourself and why you did it, you just "bow out". If you're tired of mafia, then why did you even sign up? We're barely leaving RVS on day one. If you're just going to ragequit questions thrown your way, then you should hang or get a replacement. Also, you vote dariush because... you don't like his meta? It was RVS, but still, give a person a chance in a new game!
This is a strange attitude to have coming out of the gate. Why did you open this way? You're not Dariush or NUKE9.13, so what do you care if they fight each other?I'm having a hard time answering this question, and I have no idea why. Probably because I was just winging it to promote discussion, but something tells me that's wrong too.
I looked through the rolelist again, but I don't know what PWV means. I'm assuming from what you said something good happens when people target me with actions. (is this like, a scum war vet?) However, I would probably just play as normal because I don't think i'm good enough to try and draw actions toward me without drawing a lot of suspicion. Also, if the people who did use actions on me failed/died, and i'm the one who goaded them into it, people would easily be able to figure out what I am.Yeah, Paranoid War Vet. Which is, strictly speaking, just called a War Vet in this game.
Not sure if i'm overthinking it, but I think this question is rolefishing, because to answer, the person answering has to talk about their win conditions. I don't really like to answer that kind of question. But my general plan across all games that I've developed is that no matter what team, is to never overreact to things, it never works. Otherwise, I wing it based on role and situation. I don't have much experience so i'm still experimenting with playstyles.So would "Are you a doppleganger?" also be a question that you would refuse to answer because it might incriminate you? Because I'm not sure how many reasons there are for not wanting anyone to know your win condition.
I'm not asking RVS like questions, I don't like it. I don't really have material to scumhunt with yet, so i'm waiting for some actual material to question. I could try asking some questions, but people like nuke do not seem to be play seriously until after RVS, I don't want to judge people when they're dicking around because they have nothing to do in day 1.So because Nuke is being a jackass, you can't ask anyone questions and must wait for material to pop up out of nowhere. Right.
Ignoring any questions is always a scumtell. (except if the answerer legitimately missed them) Telling the questioner to go fuck himself for a stupid question, however, is either a scumtell or a nulltell depending on whether the question is actually stupid.So that's dependent on whether the question is actually stupid or not, and not their impression of it at the time?
Shark: How do you plan to win this game?Not sure if i'm overthinking it, but I think this question is rolefishing, because to answer, the person answering has to talk about their win conditions. I don't really like to answer that kind of question. But my general plan across all games that I've developed is that no matter what team, is to never overreact to things, it never works. Otherwise, I wing it based on role and situation. I don't have much experience so i'm still experimenting with playstyles.
...
I'm not asking RVS like questions, I don't like it. I don't really have material to scumhunt with yet, so i'm waiting for some actual material to question. I could try asking some questions, but people like nuke do not seem to be play seriously until after RVS, I don't want to judge people when they're dicking around because they have nothing to do in day 1.
But it was still worth taking the time to correct it, in Random Vote Stage- why? What was the harm in leaving your vote there while you went to class?
Shark: How do you plan to win this game?Not sure if i'm overthinking it, but I think this question is rolefishing, because to answer, the person answering has to talk about their win conditions. I don't really like to answer that kind of question. But my general plan across all games that I've developed is that no matter what team, is to never overreact to things, it never works. Otherwise, I wing it based on role and situation. I don't have much experience so i'm still experimenting with playstyles.
This tells me nothing.
I want insight, not excuses.
I was hoping that if you were scum you'd make some silly mistake like saying you'd try to find and lynch "threats" instead of "scum" or something like that....that's ridiculously stupid.
Indeed it is, but it would have provided something to start questioning him on. If stupid things help find scum then I'm all for them.How would the fact that Shark used 'threats' instead of 'scum' help you find scum?
Shark: How do you plan to win this game?Not sure if i'm overthinking it, but I think this question is rolefishing, because to answer, the person answering has to talk about their win conditions. I don't really like to answer that kind of question. But my general plan across all games that I've developed is that no matter what team, is to never overreact to things, it never works. Otherwise, I wing it based on role and situation. I don't have much experience so i'm still experimenting with playstyles.
...
I'm not asking RVS like questions, I don't like it. I don't really have material to scumhunt with yet, so i'm waiting for some actual material to question. I could try asking some questions, but people like nuke do not seem to be play seriously until after RVS, I don't want to judge people when they're dicking around because they have nothing to do in day 1.
First off, this comes across more as overly cautious play. You're taking a softball question and make an accusation of rolefishing (scummy, since the only thing he could divine is your faction, not your specific role) while dodging the answer at the same time. Town, scum, and third parties are all going to claim to be vanilla town, and give some variant of the typical "I plan to hunt scum and live" spiel everyone gives.
Why are you so afraid of telling us how you plan to win as town? Don't want us to be able to tell when you're violating your own strategy so we can't bust you for it? Or are you so wrapped up in your plans as scum you see a potential scumslip behind every post and refuse to even answer an easy RVS question?
Also, avoiding RVS is somewhat anti-town. The entire purpose is to get the scumhunting started. If you don't like it, make like NUKE and do something outrageous or unorthodox to move things along. Come up with your preferred alternative to RVS, and try it. What you do not do, EVER, is come out and say you're going to lurk until something interesting happens. Lurking and waiting on others is scummy because it does nothing to help town at all.
You're making this too easy, Shark
Wing it how?
UnvoteI asked the question because I wanted to know if he would claim immediately to avoid being targeted by town roles, or if he wouldn't claim and let a few townies die for the chance of scum also dying. AKA I wanted to know how he would use it.
Orangebottle: Does it really not seem problematic to you that your logic appears to be "It's okay for me to rolefish, because he can bullshit me," ignoring that the same thing would make him a danger to every town role? Are you attempting to make him endanger town roles?
EBWOP: Unvote.I suppose it makes sense since you're not calling me scum, but at the same time you don't seem to be doing anything at all other than defending your question. As in, generally not voting or pressuring anyone is a bad thing.
Hmm.I can really feel you trying to end the RVS you hate so much by asking RVS type questions after the RVS has finished.
Interesting.
Shark. Are you town?
I asked the question because I wanted to know if he would claim immediately to avoid being targeted by town roles, or if he wouldn't claim and let a few townies die for the chance of scum also dying. AKA I wanted to know how he would use it.I'm not sure if I even need to point out that this is information that the mafia would be a lot more interested in than the town.
So, yes and no.
As you guys can see, how i've only made one post, it turns out that i'm not really in to this mafia game for some reason. I'm just finding it boring. I have no motivation and it would be much better for the game if I was replaced. Sorry about this, I don't know why this just isn't fun for me, despite that I've had fun with previous games here.This strikes me as a tactical decision. Thus, I'm all in favor of lynching your currently inert shell.
I'm requesting a replacement, if possible.
UnvoteI asked the question because I wanted to know if he would claim immediately to avoid being targeted by town roles, or if he wouldn't claim and let a few townies die for the chance of scum also dying. AKA I wanted to know how he would use it.
Orangebottle: Does it really not seem problematic to you that your logic appears to be "It's okay for me to rolefish, because he can bullshit me," ignoring that the same thing would make him a danger to every town role? Are you attempting to make him endanger town roles?
So, yes and no.
I've used pressure today, asked questions, and hunted a bit. Do I really need to be voting someone constantly to be effective? It sounds pretty ridiculous to me.EBWOP: Unvote.I suppose it makes sense since you're not calling me scum, but at the same time you don't seem to be doing anything at all other than defending your question. As in, generally not voting or pressuring anyone is a bad thing.
Apparently you do, because I don't understand. Both have a great deal to lose from their power roles targeting a PWV.I asked the question because I wanted to know if he would claim immediately to avoid being targeted by town roles, or if he wouldn't claim and let a few townies die for the chance of scum also dying. AKA I wanted to know how he would use it.I'm not sure if I even need to point out that this is information that the mafia would be a lot more interested in than the town.
So, yes and no.
What? When did I go after wine users this game? I was scumhunting Dariush, and I don't remember any wine there.
Orangebottle, who do you currently suspect? Have you given up on going after wine users?
You're not looking more townlike by saying this, mang.I'm supposed to care? That's new.
I can really feel you trying to end the RVS you hate so much by asking RVS type questions after the RVS has finished.I agree with Leafsnail here, NUKE. What did you intend to accomplish with that question? Why don't you scumhunt instead of sitting there with your thumb up your ass? Your vote is sitting on Shakerag for what appears to be no reason, and I'm pretty sure the only reason you went by unnoticed is because of me arguing with leafsnail.
Orangebottle, what is this? The instant people begin to vote you, instead of explaining yourself and why you did it, you just "bow out". If you're tired of mafia, then why did you even sign up? We're barely leaving RVS on day one. If you're just going to ragequit questions thrown your way, then you should hang or get a replacement.
Unvote
Orangebottle: Does it really not seem problematic to you that your logic appears to be "It's okay for me to rolefish, because he can bullshit me," ignoring that the same thing would make him a danger to every town role? Are you attempting to make him endanger town roles?
Shark. Are you town?
MOD:I'm voting for NUKE.
I saw Orangebottle as the scummiest player at the time (and still do), and I like voting for people I consider likely to be scum, whether the reasoning originated from me or not. Simple as that. And no, I'm not agreeing with Leafsnail just because I feel like agreeing with Leafsnail.Orangebottle: So basically, your question is not rolefishing because people can lie? That's...wow. Also, what exactly were you trying to get with that question?
This looks like a lazy bandwagon.
I have a hard time figuring out what your case is, other than you're just agreeing with Leafsnail for the sake of agreeing with Leafsnail.
I will admit it was a bad example.Imiknorris: Can you give us a better example, then?
Orangebottle: So basically, your question is not rolefishing because people can lie? That's...wow. Also, what exactly were you trying to get with that question?Essentially. I was trying to figure out how Leafsnail would use the PWV role. It lets me learn a bit about how he thinks.
You're not looking more townlike by saying this, mang.Pandarsenic: Any specific reasons why?
Orangebottle: So, basically, you're saying your intention was for it to just be an ordinary RVS question. Okay. I can see that being done.Yup.
The problem I have is your reaction to the idea that it might be rolefishing. Essentially, the possibility of lying doesn't make a question suddenly not rolefishing, or usable for rolefishing. For example, take the question "What action did you take last night?". Yes, the response may be a complete and total lie, but that doesn't change the fact that the question is blatant rolefishing. Under your logic, however, the possibility of lying makes the question a non-rolefishing question..........
Do you see the problem now?
This looks like a lazy bandwagon.I saw Orangebottle as the scummiest player at the time (and still do), and I like voting for people I consider likely to be scum, whether the reasoning originated from me or not. Simple as that. And no, I'm not agreeing with Leafsnail just because I feel like agreeing with Leafsnail.
I have a hard time figuring out what your case is, other than you're just agreeing with Leafsnail for the sake of agreeing with Leafsnail.
Jim: You spend a lot of time jabbing at people for bandwagoning, but that's just under half of your solid post-RVS content today. What are your own thoughts on Orangebottle?
First off, this comes across more as overly cautious play. You're taking a softball question and make an accusation of rolefishing (scummy, since the only thing he could divine is your faction, not your specific role) while dodging the answer at the same time. Town, scum, and third parties are all going to claim to be vanilla town, and give some variant of the typical "I plan to hunt scum and live" spiel everyone gives.
Why are you so afraid of telling us how you plan to win as town? Don't want us to be able to tell when you're violating your own strategy so we can't bust you for it? Or are you so wrapped up in your plans as scum you see a potential scumslip behind every post and refuse to even answer an easy RVS question?
Also, avoiding RVS is somewhat anti-town. The entire purpose is to get the scumhunting started. If you don't like it, make like NUKE and do something outrageous or unorthodox to move things along. Come up with your preferred alternative to RVS, and try it. What you do not do, EVER, is come out and say you're going to lurk until something interesting happens. Lurking and waiting on others is scummy because it does nothing to help town at all.
You're making this too easy, Shark
If you already know what every faction is going to claim to be/do/say, then why is it a huge deal to you what Shark says? Do you need him to feed you what you just claimed to know was a lie, just to satisfy your sense of rightness?
I disagree that avoiding RVS is a scummy move. I don't think I really need to explain that, but if I do then let me know. I'll make sure to use my extra-large Comic Sans to explain it to you.
Overall, this feels like a bandwagon with shaky reasoning at best. You're the fourth vote on Shark, so you must be convinced of his scumminess and be ready to lynch him, right? Because vote four isn't a pressure vote in almost any case.
Wing it how?
Jim: You spend a lot of time jabbing at people for bandwagoning, but that's just under half of your solid post-RVS content today. What are your own thoughts on Orangebottle?
He has a shitty day game that lots of people are taking advantage of right now.
Also, avoiding RVS is somewhat anti-town. The entire purpose is to get the scumhunting started. If you don't like it, make like NUKE and do something outrageous or unorthodox to move things along. Come up with your preferred alternative to RVS, and try it. What you do not do, EVER, is come out and say you're going to lurk until something interesting happens. Lurking and waiting on others is scummy because it does nothing to help town at all.
He has a shitty day game that lots of people are taking advantage of right now.While I appreciate the defense, I'm a big boy, Jim. I can handle myself. Do you think I'm town? Why don't you agree with the accusation of rolefishing?
What do you expect to get from this question? If you're winging it, how can you know what you're doing in advance- that'd be self-contradictory.He just admitted to planning to spin a case from a single case of wrong wording. I want to know his reasons and plans, since I sincerely doubt winging a case on a random person is a townie move, especially on a person who's already got several votes on him at the time of explanation. Unvote meanwhile.
He just admitted to planning to spin a case from a single case of wrong wording. I want to know his reasons and plans, since I sincerely doubt winging a case on a random person is a townie move, especially on a person who's already got several votes on him at the time of explanation.By "winging it" I meant that I would continue attacking Shark if his answers made me suspicious, and if not I would stop trying to use his answer to determine his alignment and go back to scumhunting normally. There's a reason why I specifically asked Shark that question - I thought that he would be the most likely player to accidentally let his actual goals slip through in his answer.
So Urist I, let's get specific. You must have something in mind. What would you do if you got unsatisfactory answers?I would continue attacking him until he was more forthcoming.
Imiknorris: Can you give us a better example, then?If he had said that he would try to determine who was most likely to have a power role (so he could leave them alone), or perhaps if he said that he was going to try not to do anything scummy (so as to not waste the town's time). Alternatively, if he didn't do what he said he was going to (such as overreacting) later on.
As you guys can see, how i've only made one post, it turns out that i'm not really in to this mafia game for some reason. I'm just finding it boring. I have no motivation and it would be much better for the game if I was replaced. Sorry about this, I don't know why this just isn't fun for me, despite that I've had fun with previous games here.But your one post was very enlightening and filled with content! Why would you put that much effort in if you had no motivation? Are you trying to dump your mistake on whoever replaces you?
However, I also unfortuantely have a gut feeling that meta-tells and meta-arguments end up being important aspects in games like these.How so? What effects do you feel they could have on the game?
By "winging it" I meant that I would continue attacking Shark if his answers made me suspicious, and if not I would stop trying to use his answer to determine his alignment and go back to scumhunting normally. There's a reason why I specifically asked Shark that question - I thought that he would be the most likely player to accidentally let his actual goals slip through in his answer.So, do you or don't you consider using 'threats' instead of 'scum' a suspicious answer?
Is there a reason why you're ignoring Irony and Orangebottle?I missed Irony's question and still can't find OB's.
So that's dependent on whether the question is actually stupid or not, and not their impression of it at the time?It's dependent on both, or rather whether the reality and the impression coincide.
Dariush, do you have any ideas?Shark is a new player who hasn't seen neither of us three in a game and probably doesn't really grasp the concept of RVS. For all he knows, you just attacked me from the get-go for a really shitty reason.
So, do you or don't you consider using 'threats' instead of 'scum' a suspicious answer?I consider it vague enough to warrant further inquiry.
...Did you really just go through the thread looking for everything addressed to me? Are you that desperate to get my attention off yourself, Urist I?Both of the questions you didn't answer were brought up after my previous post. I saw them as I was reading the thread and noticed that you didn't respond to them.
Been busy with holiday stuff at my family's, as a result, this game hasn't been getting the attention it deserves. That'll change, soon. Regardless, I'm content with the placement of my vote for obvious reasons.
How so?So that's dependent on whether the question is actually stupid or not, and not their impression of it at the time?It's dependent on both, or rather whether the reality and the impression coincide.
I was asking Shark whether he was town in order to get a better read of him; if I too reckoned Shark was scum, it would be silly to berate McArathos for sharing that opinion.So you're defending your earlier question on Shark by just now chainsawing him, which somehow justifies it after the fact.
Shakerag:However, I also unfortuantely have a gut feeling that meta-tells and meta-arguments end up being important aspects in games like these.How so? What effects do you feel they could have on the game?
So what's his alignment? This is a bit evasive for someone who is usually very blunt.
On that subject, why exactly are you voting Shark? It looks more like a policy lynch than anything else right now.
He has a shitty day game that lots of people are taking advantage of right now.While I appreciate the defense, I'm a big boy, Jim. I can handle myself. Do you think I'm town? Why don't you agree with the accusation of rolefishing?
I'm seeing something strange from you this game. I don't know what's bothering me, but I have a bad feeling about your posts. And these things have been very accurate in the past.
Jim, why did you put the fourth vote on Shark while he's being replaced?
Shakerag: I was joking, of course, but I still don't like that you just totally ignore me. Mind telling me what was going through your mind as I unfolded my ridiculous assault on logic?
The trick is in how they answer it.Except that can only ever get one answer from anyone remotely intelligent, that answer being "Yes." Townies are townies, and we want to play the game instead of getting lynched, so we say "Yes." Scum will always say yes because they want to look like town. There's an exception to every rule, and for this one it's a claiming survivor.
I wanted to see if Shark would answer this question in a manner resembling the way in which he answered the 'how to win' question (overthinking it). If so, I would tentatively conclude that that's just the sort of person he is.
If he seemed overly reactive, I would press him for the reason for his panic. Four votes is an understandable reason to panic, so I would be lenient- but still, panicky people crack. It's always worth seeing what oozes out.
If he answered it in a very calm and rational manner- well, that would be interesting. I would question him on his sudden flip in behaviour, and perhaps concede that McArathos could be correct in identifying his previous actions as scummy.
Or something like that; those are the three reaction archetypes I was expecting, and what I would take from them.
McArathos, as I mentioned, looks to be scum looking for an easy D1 lynch; someone who made a clear mistake, which can easily be exaggerated, and through the application of (undue) pressure enhanced in a marinade of inexperience and panic. His case on Shark was valid, to an extent, but it felt... to well thought out, as it were. Like he thought "here is someone vaguely scummy, now how can I make them look scummier".And this feels...too much like bullshit to ignore. You're going to lynch someone for thinking too much?
Native:Been busy with holiday stuff at my family's, as a result, this game hasn't been getting the attention it deserves. That'll change, soon. Regardless, I'm content with the placement of my vote for obvious reasons.
You're content with lynching someone for not answering your question immediately? Even though he has now answered the question, he is still doomed to die?
I've used pressure today, asked questions, and hunted a bit. Do I really need to be voting someone constantly to be effective? It sounds pretty ridiculous to me.You'd been asking questions, but didn't seem to have any actual suspicions. Certainly nothing that was worth your vote, it seems.
Apparently you do, because I don't understand. Both have a great deal to lose from their power roles targeting a PWV.Mafia care more about losing their members since they start off with fewer people, and generally the reasonably high chance of a loss of a mafia member will outweigh the relatively slight chance of the loss of a town PR.
This looks like a lazy bandwagon.
I have a hard time figuring out what your case is, other than you're just agreeing with Leafsnail for the sake of agreeing with Leafsnail.
Man, I sure hope you have original arguments that you're not just borrowing from Leafsnail.Hey, you can talk to me directly, you know. It seems odd that you hate my case so much yet won't confront me about it at all. Maybe while you're at it you can explain why Orangebottle looks so town in spite of asking a rolefishing question, deflecting when pressed on said question, then denying it was rolefishing, then eventually deciding that actually yes, it was rolefishing, but he didn't want to just admit a mistake in the first place for some reason.
I can really feel you trying to end the RVS you hate so much by asking RVS type questions after the RVS has finished.Stuff is happening. You don't need to be doing lolrandom crap for reactions now. Especially if you don't like RVS.
And doing nothing else.
Right. Thanks for explaining.Apparently you do, because I don't understand. Both have a great deal to lose from their power roles targeting a PWV.Mafia care more about losing their members since they start off with fewer people, and generally the reasonably high chance of a loss of a mafia member will outweigh the relatively slight chance of the loss of a town PR.
Incidentally, he also decided to bandwagon my point about Nuke here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2825365#msg2825365), but I guess it's only bad to agree with my point when you're doing it to Orangebottle.Not only did I say I was agreeing with you, but I was actually doing something with your point instead of just sitting there with it like you were.
No, I'm content with lynching someone for trying to metalynch someone for always wanting to metalynch someone else, among other things.What other things?
This looks like a lazy bandwagon.
I have a hard time figuring out what your case is, other than you're just agreeing with Leafsnail for the sake of agreeing with Leafsnail.Man, I sure hope you have original arguments that you're not just borrowing from Leafsnail.Hey, you can talk to me directly, you know. It seems odd that you hate my case so much yet won't confront me about it at all.
Hey, you can talk to me directly, you know. It seems odd that you hate my case so much yet won't confront me about it at all. Maybe while you're at it you can explain why Orangebottle looks so town in spite of asking a rolefishing question, deflecting when pressed on said question, then denying it was rolefishing, then eventually deciding that actually yes, it was rolefishing, but he didn't want to just admit a mistake in the first place for some reason.
Incidentally, he also decided to bandwagon my point about Nuke here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2825365#msg2825365), but I guess it's only bad to agree with my point when you're doing it to Orangebottle.
McArathos, as I mentioned, looks to be scum looking for an easy D1 lynch; someone who made a clear mistake, which can easily be exaggerated, and through the application of (undue) pressure enhanced in a marinade of inexperience and panic. His case on Shark was valid, to an extent, but it felt... to well thought out, as it were. Like he thought "here is someone vaguely scummy, now how can I make them look scummier".
Oh, you find him scummy, do you?Jim: Sorry, I saw that statement as just a snarky rhetorical anti-bandwagoning jab, and not an attempt to clarify my case.
Maybe you could explain just exactly what it is you find scummy about him. You see, that's what I wanted when I said that I had a hard time figuring out what your case is.
All I see you saying is that Orangebottle was rolefishing, which is an accusation I don't agree with and I suspect you for so readily agreeing with it.
The problem I have is your reaction to the idea that it might be rolefishing.If you want a more detailed description of my case, keep on reading from there. But just remember this: my case has never been about OB's question being rolefishing. It has been about his reaction to that idea. This can be recognized from the post in which I voted as well, where I voted for his belief that his question wasn't rolefishing because people might lie.
Orangebottle: I'm not exactly sure I understand. In this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2821557#msg2821557), you explicitly used what you are now calling your opinion on why rolefishing is useless to prove that your question wasn't rolefishing. I'm having trouble understanding how you got here from there. So, do you have any idea why you did this?QuoteThe problem I have is your reaction to the idea that it might be rolefishing. Essentially, the possibility of lying doesn't make a question suddenly not rolefishing, or usable for rolefishing. For example, take the question "What action did you take last night?". Yes, the response may be a complete and total lie, but that doesn't change the fact that the question is blatant rolefishing. Under your logic, however, the possibility of lying makes the question a non-rolefishing question..........
Do you see the problem now?
Sometimes I amaze myself.
I was stating my opinion on why I think rolefishing is useless, for some reason.
So, yeah, totally get why that question was rolefishing. It was entirely unintentional rolefishing, though.
Except he can't really defend himself if he's being replaced. This looks like looking for an easy lynch, Jim.Jim, why did you put the fourth vote on Shark while he's being replaced?'Cuz he's suspicious and asking for a replacement doesn't magically make him less scum.
Dariush:If the question is stupid and he says it's stupid, it's a nulltell.It's dependent on both, or rather whether the reality and the impression coincide.How so?
Also, "How did you miss this?" was a question. Now it's "How did you miss both of these plus that other thing?" though.I missed it. How exactly am I supposed to explain how did I miss it?
Orangebottle: I'm not exactly sure I understand. In this post (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2821557#msg2821557), you explicitly used what you are now calling your opinion on why rolefishing is useless to prove that your question wasn't rolefishing. I'm having trouble understanding how you got here from there. So, do you have any idea why you did this?You're not the only one who has trouble understanding what the hell I was doing when that happened. I'm thinking it was me going,"It's useless, why would I do it?" etc.
On that subject, why exactly are you voting Shark? It looks more like a policy lynch than anything else right now.
Mostly because of flimsily justified bandwagon vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2822637#msg2822637). Or rather, the only thing of content he posted before ditching the game.
Dariush:If the question is stupid and he says it's stupid, it's a nulltell.It's dependent on both, or rather whether the reality and the impression coincide.How so?
If the question is not stupid and he says it's not stupid, it's a nulltell.
If the question is not stupid and he says it's stupid, it's a scumtell.
If the question is stupid and he says it's not stupid, it's a scumtell.
Shakerag: Saw then forgot that question, but it doesn't make sense anyway. What do you mean, items? Alien Technologies?
I'd like to ask Jokerman and Toaster why they are abstaining from voting when the day may end shortly.Polly want a cracker?
If the question is stupid and he says it's not stupid, it's a scumtell.What's your reasoning on this?
I missed it. How exactly am I supposed to explain how did I miss it?Well, how much attention are you paying to the game?
Not only did I say I was agreeing with you, but I was actually doing something with your point instead of just sitting there with it like you were.The problem was that you were bandwagonning (and that Jim apparently didn't care about that particular brand of bandwagonning).
I'm trying to figure out how Jim implied that he hates your case. Would you please explain?By bashing people for agreeing with my point, saying that people were abusing Orangebottle's shitty day game (shitty but definitely town, Jim can just tell these things), saying that the stuff on Orangebottle was baseless.
Part of Orangebottle's shitty day game is that he doesn't know how to defend himself when he gets attacked, opting to defer to his attacker's opinion very frequently. He did this in Wild West Mafia and I lynched him for it on Day 3, after almost lynching him for it on Day 2. I'm sure I could find other examples if I really wanted to, but it satisfies me enough that this isn't too far from normal for him.He didn't "defer to my opinion" so much as "try to deflect as much as possible until it became clear he could no longer lie" (not mentioning the bandwagonning and stuff). I'm not sure what it would require for you to think Orangebottle is scum - it doesn't seem like you to give people a free pass this game due to past idiocy.
Shakerag: Saw then forgot that question, but it doesn't make sense anyway. What do you mean, items? Alien Technologies?
Yes, the Alien technologies. They were called items in the roles spoiler, so that's what I was referring to. Although, I suppose the Mad Scientist would have items as well. Is that what was causing the confusion?
Also, I have to wonder now: how strongly do you suspect Leafsnail?
Jim: It may have been clear to you, but I still wanted to hear you say it. What makes you think so? It can't be his day game, since according to you it is "shitty". Your later comment seems to indicate that it's because of the nature of the attacks on him- is that the case?
So why not say so when voting him? Or vote him right when you commented on it?
Jim: Anything else about Shark strike you as scummy?
He didn't "defer to my opinion" so much as "try to deflect as much as possible until it became clear he could no longer lie" (not mentioning the bandwagonning and stuff). I'm not sure what it would require for you to think Orangebottle is scum - it doesn't seem like you to give people a free pass this game due to past idiocy.
Your answer, for the record, is "No, I will not help you choose which techs to take, Alien."
Apparently you don't know what bandwagoning is. I'm going to take this slowly because you apparently lack a brain. Let me spell it out for you:Not only did I say I was agreeing with you, but I was actually doing something with your point instead of just sitting there with it like you were.The problem was that you were bandwagonning (and that Jim apparently didn't care about that particular brand of bandwagonning).
Your rebuttal is that you were bandwagonning.
Bandwagoning: Voting for whoever has the most votes or seems most likely to be lynched, despite having poor/no reasons or not wanting them lynched previously. It implies that you don't care who gets lynched, you just want someone gone, which is generally the case for scumNow, here's what I said in the post we're referring to:
According to Mephansteras, I was the only person voting for NUKE. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2826086#msg2826086)I can really feel you trying to end the RVS you hate so much by asking RVS type questions after the RVS has finished.I agree with Leafsnail here, NUKE. What did you intend to accomplish with that question? Why don't you scumhunt instead of sitting there with your thumb up your ass? Your vote is sitting on Shakerag for what appears to be no reason, and I'm pretty sure the only reason you went by unnoticed is because of me arguing with leafsnail.
Those reasons seem pretty solid to me. In sum, I'm voting him because he is acting against his incredibly strong hatred of RVS(which is very unusual for him), he's not really scumhunting, and he's voting for shakerag for the most ridiculous reasons one could ever dream of(re: Shakerag couldn't/wouldn't provide him with a method of ending RVS).I can really feel you trying to end the RVS you hate so much by asking RVS type questions after the RVS has finished.I agree with Leafsnail here, NUKE. What did you intend to accomplish with that question? Why don't you scumhunt instead of sitting there with your thumb up your ass? Your vote is sitting on Shakerag for what appears to be no reason, and I'm pretty sure the only reason you went by unnoticed is because of me arguing with leafsnail.
Jim: Let me get this straight: you consider it rather scummy to agree with (parts of) Leafsnail's case, because you disagree completely with the case, but you don't tend to get anywhere when arguing with Leafsnail about things you disagree with, so you're deciding to skip arguing with him about his case, and are just arguing with everyone who (partially) agrees with him about his case? And, while you find the anti-OB argument rather scummy, it isn't really impacting your read on Leafsnail much?Also, I have to wonder now: how strongly do you suspect Leafsnail?
Not that much.
Arguing with Leafsnail about things I completely disagree with him on is something I've done a lot of in previous games with him. It never seems to amount to anything and I never get a strong read either way. I'm generally left concluding, "Well, I guess we just don't see eye to eye," and his game is strong enough that there's usually more than enough of what he's doing in other areas that it's hard to suspect him for whatever I disagree with him about.
Same deal here, except I decided not to argue with him about it since I knew how that would go.
Your answer, for the record, is "No, I will not help you choose which techs to take, Alien."Pandarsenic: Why, exactly, is this your immediate reaction to Shakerag's question? Do you have anything else against him? Anything?
Unvote. Orangebottle is strongly reminding me of his play in Ockham's (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=92846.msg2691182#msg2691182), as town. He seems confused in the same basic way as he did in Ockham's. My read on him wasn't very strong anyway, so, onwards.
Jim: Let me get this straight: you consider it rather scummy to agree with (parts of) Leafsnail's case, because you disagree completely with the case, but you don't tend to get anywhere when arguing with Leafsnail about things you disagree with, so you're deciding to skip arguing with him about his case, and are just arguing with everyone who (partially) agrees with him about his case? And, while you find the anti-OB argument rather scummy, it isn't really impacting your read on Leafsnail much?
*About how much of an effect does the anti-OB case have on your read of Leafsnail?
*How the hell do you actually figure out whether Leafsnail is scum or not?
Yes.QuoteMcArathos, as I mentioned, looks to be scum looking for an easy D1 lynch; someone who made a clear mistake, which can easily be exaggerated, and through the application of (undue) pressure enhanced in a marinade of inexperience and panic. His case on Shark was valid, to an extent, but it felt... to well thought out, as it were. Like he thought "here is someone vaguely scummy, now how can I make them look scummier".And this feels...too much like bullshit to ignore. You're going to lynch someone for thinking too much?
Nuke: That's great and all, but it still doesn't explain why you used your just-now attack on OB as proof that you didn't suspect Shark. Why did you feel the need to prove yourself like that, and how is that supposed to mean anything?...what?
Yes.McArathos, as I mentioned, looks to be scum looking for an easy D1 lynch; someone who made a clear mistake, which can easily be exaggerated, and through the application of (undue) pressure enhanced in a marinade of inexperience and panic. His case on Shark was valid, to an extent, but it felt... to well thought out, as it were. Like he thought "here is someone vaguely scummy, now how can I make them look scummier".This is just plain silly. I saw something scummy, and clearly stated why I felt that way. You're seriously criticizing me for thinking my actions through before voting?
Nuke: You're on to Shark about over-analyzing- don't you think you're doing the same thing here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2827232#msg2827232)?Firstly, I was on to McArathos for over analyzing.
I tried that. It still feels like bullshit. Mainly because this is a game about thinking and logic.Yes.QuoteMcArathos, as I mentioned, looks to be scum looking for an easy D1 lynch; someone who made a clear mistake, which can easily be exaggerated, and through the application of (undue) pressure enhanced in a marinade of inexperience and panic. His case on Shark was valid, to an extent, but it felt... to well thought out, as it were. Like he thought "here is someone vaguely scummy, now how can I make them look scummier".And this feels...too much like bullshit to ignore. You're going to lynch someone for thinking too much?
Please put your kneejerk 'OH MY GOD HE ISN'T PLAYING THE WAY I LEARNT TO PLAY' reaction aside for a moment. Read what I have written. Think about it. See? Not so bad, is it?
Yes.:|
Did you really think that Shark's slip was born from scum malice rather than town stupidity?
Well, maybe you did. Looking back, it looks more justified than I remember.
Never mind, unvote.
I have no suspicions.
Isn't whether the question is stupid or not a subjective point instead of an objective one?StrReplace("If the question is","If the majority of players thinks the question is");
Logic. I'd look askew on a person who (for example) answers with anything significantly different from 'fuck you, hang, scum' when asked 'What is your role?' (i.e. an existent role, regardless of whether it's the correct one).If the question is stupid and he says it's not stupid, it's a scumtell.What's your reasoning on this?
I'm sorry, I can't seem to find the units for measuring attention in the SI table.I missed it. How exactly am I supposed to explain how did I miss it?Well, how much attention are you paying to the game?
I have reread the thread, and no one stands out as scummy.I have no suspicions.This seems very unlike you. Care to explain why?
I tried that. It still feels like bullshit. Mainly because this is a game about thinking and logic.Uh huh.
:|I am going to unvote if, on reflection, the case is not as solid as I thought.
You're just going to keep slinging shitty cases at people? I'm more than content with where my vote is right now.
Because two people can't possibly come up with the same idea independently from each other, am I right?I'd like to ask Jokerman and Toaster why they are abstaining from voting when the day may end shortly.Polly want a cracker?
Your answer, for the record, is "No, I will not help you choose which techs to take, Alien."Is this supposed to be in reference to the next Paranormal game? I can't fathom what you're getting at here. Unless I'm missing something completely, the rules seem to state that anyone getting an Alien Tech would be doing so before the game starts, so how would this have an effect on the current game? You're being awfully dodgy for just an RVS question.
Extend. Finals.So I'm getting the impression that the majority of people here are in high school/college.
Imagine if you will: You are the scum, and it is D1. You want to mislynch someone. What do you do?There's also a possibility which you don't seem to have considered: that McArathos knew that he was inexperienced and was explaining it for that reason.
If you don't bandwagon, or lurk andhopewait for the town to hit themselves, you must find someone who looks scummy but isn't, then try to make them look extra scummy.
So, find someone who makes a mistake. Now, explain why this mistake is scummy. Damn; this is not a very big case. It doesn't quite justify an actual lynch yet. Okay then, expand on it. Analyse each detail, and explain how it shows him to be scum. Completely ignore the possibility that it could stem from ignorance/an honest mistake.
That is what I was accusing McArathos of doing.
I'd rather you vote when you have a solid case instead of immediately flinging whatever you have and waiting for something to come up later.Quote:|I am going to unvote if, on reflection, the case is not as solid as I thought.
You're just going to keep slinging shitty cases at people? I'm more than content with where my vote is right now.
Would you rather I did not?
Unvote. Orangebottle is strongly reminding me of his play in Ockham's (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=92846.msg2691182#msg2691182), as town. He seems confused in the same basic way as he did in Ockham's. My read on him wasn't very strong anyway, so, onwards.This is interesting.
I saw Orangebottle as the scummiest player at the time (and still do)Hmmm...
Jim: It may have been clear to you, but I still wanted to hear you say it. What makes you think so? It can't be his day game, since according to you it is "shitty". Your later comment seems to indicate that it's because of the nature of the attacks on him- is that the case?
Shitty play isn't necessarily scummy play. He's making many of the same mistakes I saw him make as town in other games. (Particularly Wild Wild West Mafia. See my reply to Leafsnail.) Essentially, I recognize his meta, even if it's objectively terrible play.
The attacks on him by other players don't really affect my opinion of him very much.
So why not say so when voting him? Or vote him right when you commented on it?
I asked him some questions and wanted to see his answers before I made a decision. I pointed out the hypocrisy of him ditching as soon as he started facing questions considering his vote on Orangebottle because I wanted to, instead of stating the reason for my vote.
I suppose I should have been clearer.
Nuke: You're on to Shark about over-analyzing- don't you think you're doing the same thing here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2827232#msg2827232)?Firstly, I was on to McArathos for over analyzing.
Secondly, my analysis was requested by others.
I have no suspicions.
Because this board's day game has become so ritualized and monotone that it requires almost no effort on the part of scum to blend in.
Isn't whether the question is stupid or not a subjective point instead of an objective one?StrReplace("If the question is","If the majority of players thinks the question is");
Unless I'm missing something completely, the rules seem to state that anyone getting an Alien Tech would be doing so before the game starts, so how would this have an effect on the current game?
Don't you mean Thursday?
Jim, don't ignore me. You accuse Shark of bandwagoning despite doing the same thing to him for this sole reason and additionally when he can't defend himself. Doesn't it look like hypocrisy to you? Because it sure does to me.
Except he can't really defend himself if he's being replaced. This looks like looking for an easy lynch, Jim.
Your arguments don't tell me that you think he's town. From what I read, you're telling me you don't think he's scum... because he's a bad player? That's the Org defense, and it's not any more valid here than when he did it. You should know better than that.
This:Nuke: That's great and all, but it still doesn't explain why you used your just-now attack on OB as proof that you didn't suspect Shark. Why did you feel the need to prove yourself like that, and how is that supposed to mean anything?...what?
I think you may be confused. If not, could you explain what you are referring to?
I was asking Shark whether he was town in order to get a better read of him; if I too reckoned Shark was scum, it would be silly to berate McArathos for sharing that opinion.You're saying "I never thought Shark was scum; if I did, it wouldn't make sense for me to then attack McArathos like I just did." Why did you need to defend your not-suspecting of Shark like that, and how does chainsawing him after the fact show that you never suspected him?
I have no suspicions.Okay. What's your plan to win, then?
Little enough to miss three questions and not think that odd in the slightest, though.I'm sorry, I can't seem to find the units for measuring attention in the SI table.I missed it. How exactly am I supposed to explain how did I miss it?Well, how much attention are you paying to the game?
Look, man. He did this exact same thing in Wild West Mafia. I attacked him for reversing himself on some issue after I pressured him extensively over it. I asked him what was up and he admitted that he was just trying to get me off of his case. But Jim! That's super scummy! And yes it is, and did he ever pay for it in that game, but he was town then and apparently thinks that's a good way to handle attacks. The inductive part of my brain reasons that he's making the same godawful mistake here.This seems like odd reasoning to me. I guess it'd make sense if you'd seen him scum and seen that he doesn't pull this kind of shit as scum, but as it is you seem to be assuming that it's something that's exclusive to his towngame.
Apparently you don't know what bandwagoning is. I'm going to take this slowly because you apparently lack a brain. Let me spell it out for you:The definition you're using is incomplete. Bandwagonning for me also covers jumping onto someone else's suspicions without adding anything of your own. I guess it's unusual that you were the first to cast the actual vote, but regardless of whether it fits the definition of bandwagonning it's still as scummy as hell (copying someone's suspicion in order to help get them off your back).
Leafsnail: I stopped doing lolrandom crap here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2821328#msg2821328). Everything after that, serious business.So you weren't joking about that "ridiculous assault on logic" question? Great. And now you have no suspicions. Even better. If we all played like you I'm sure this game would've come a long way.
The definition you're using is incomplete. Bandwagonning for me also covers jumping onto someone else's suspicions without adding anything of your own. I guess it's unusual that you were the first to cast the actual vote, but regardless of whether it fits the definition of bandwagonning it's still as scummy as hell (copying someone's suspicion in order to help get them off your back).:|
Those reasons seem pretty solid to me. In sum, I'm voting him because he is acting against his incredibly strong hatred of RVS(which is very unusual for him), he's not really scumhunting, and he's voting for shakerag for the most ridiculous reasons one could ever dream of(re: Shakerag couldn't/wouldn't provide him with a method of ending RVS).Third, the whole point of the game is to find the scum, convince the other townies that said person is scum, and have them agree with you. It's ridiculous to lynch someone for agreeing with your suspicions and using them as a basis for questioning the individual you're both suspicious of.
Except he can't really defend himself if he's being replaced. This looks like looking for an easy lynch, Jim.
I see a notable absence of questions here, but rather an apparent statement of your opinion. Absent, or perhaps too subtle for me to notice, was the request that I debate you about it.
I don't really care if it looks like an easy lynch to you. He bandwagoned onto Orangebottle with a flimsy reason and an insincere lecture about activity and prevaricated about his win condition.
Scummy enough for me.Your arguments don't tell me that you think he's town. From what I read, you're telling me you don't think he's scum... because he's a bad player? That's the Org defense, and it's not any more valid here than when he did it. You should know better than that.
I don't know how much more I can say about this. Bending backwards from pressure is a familiar thing for Orangebottle to do. If it was the only thing he was doing I'd be more concerned, but he's still around hunting and arguing and so on.
Also, it seems like there was some point you were going to make but didn't.
Jim: Not exactly. I'm describing someone who makes statements like this:Jim: Let me get this straight: you consider it rather scummy to agree with (parts of) Leafsnail's case, because you disagree completely with the case, but you don't tend to get anywhere when arguing with Leafsnail about things you disagree with, so you're deciding to skip arguing with him about his case, and are just arguing with everyone who (partially) agrees with him about his case? And, while you find the anti-OB argument rather scummy, it isn't really impacting your read on Leafsnail much?
It sounds like you're describing someone who has a problem with people bandwagoning. That sounds like me! Very much like me, in fact.
But it also sounds like you're trying to describe it as a crime.
All I see you saying is that Orangebottle was rolefishing, which is an accusation I don't agree with and I suspect you for so readily agreeing with it.Statements that indicate that it isn't just bandwagoning that you have a problem with, but agreeing with the argument, whether augmented with additional arguments or not.
So basically exactly what I've been saying all along.First question: My vote was not nearly as strong as I wished it was at any point today, and I always knew that, but I had more on OB than on anyone else, so I went for the person I found scummiest. Simple as that.
Read on him wasn't very strong my ass. Did you always know that your vote on Orangebottle was flimsy, or is this a recent development?
And how did it take you this long to figure this out?
Jack:Orangebottle: It's simple. You were scummiest in a mass of people who either looked rather town or I had neutral reads on. Didn't take much. If you're wondering why I didn't yell something like "My read sucks!" before voting, think about how bad that would be for pressure.Unvote. Orangebottle is strongly reminding me of his play in Ockham's (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=92846.msg2691182#msg2691182), as town. He seems confused in the same basic way as he did in Ockham's. My read on him wasn't very strong anyway, so, onwards.This is interesting.I saw Orangebottle as the scummiest player at the time (and still do)Hmmm...
Scummiest player, and then you don't really have a strong read on me? How does that work?
You're clever, aren't you? (hint: not really) In my first quote, you only responded to the first sentence, while in second quote you accuse me of not asking any questions, despite there being a question I want answered right in the middle of the first quote. Which you ignored.Jim, don't ignore me. You accuse Shark of bandwagoning despite doing the same thing to him for this sole reason and additionally when he can't defend himself. Doesn't it look like hypocrisy to you? Because it sure does to me.
I haven't been, I just didn't think there was anything you wanted answered.Except he can't really defend himself if he's being replaced. This looks like looking for an easy lynch, Jim.
I see a notable absence of questions here, but rather an apparent statement of your opinion. Absent, or perhaps too subtle for me to notice, was the request that I debate you about it.
I don't really care if it looks like an easy lynch to you. He bandwagoned onto Orangebottle with a flimsy reason and an insincere lecture about activity and prevaricated about his win condition.
Scummy enough for me.
Little enough to miss three questions and not think that odd in the slightest, though.Three? I counted two. What exactly are you pushing at?
Interesting. Who do you suspect, other than Jim?I still don't like Shark for that bandwagon but I'll refrain from questioning or voting him until a replacement is found and I don't like Urist A for that 'winging' case, but nothing too solid on him right now or directions to question. I'll just keep an eye on him. Oh, an if OB weaves another case based solely on his
Why are you forcing people to drag these reasons out of you? Usually you're wordy and open about your suspicions, but all this game you've kept things close to your chest. It's unusual for you, and I don't like it.
Jim: Not exactly. I'm describing someone who makes statements like this:All I see you saying is that Orangebottle was rolefishing, which is an accusation I don't agree with and I suspect you for so readily agreeing with it.Statements that indicate that it isn't just bandwagoning that you have a problem with, but agreeing with the argument, whether augmented with additional arguments or not.
Second question: Two things:
*His responses to my questions were the first time I actually saw anything resembling the whole "deferring to attacker's opinion" thing you mentioned in his play today. Would you be kind enough to show other moments?
*His responses were just like those to me in Ockham's, with the confusion about how his own brain works and such.
You're clever, aren't you? (hint: not really) In my first quote, you only responded to the first sentence, while in second quote you accuse me of not asking any questions, despite there being a question I want answered right in the middle of the first quote. Which you ignored.
Fuck you and hang, scum. Unvote Shark, fucking Orangebottle.
EBWOP: Damn your ninja ways.Kekekekekekekeke~
Irony: Wow. That's quite a reaction. Care to explain what you were thinking when you switched your vote?That you tied the vote at the last second to save your ass, which is both scummy as fuck and a waste of a day.
This also strikes me as incredibly scummy, though I can't say why. Maybe because it feels like elated RIA scum laughter?EBWOP: Damn your ninja ways.Kekekekekekekeke~
I'm just sneaky like that.
Huh. I can see OB's reason for tying the vote (and I too would be pissed), but your reaction looks more like a bandwagon purely so he'd get lynched. Even more interesting considering you'd basically ignored him all game up until that point. Would you like to explain why his move was enough to go from no attention to an immediate lynchvote, IronyOwl?He tried to waste a lynch- at the last second so nobody could stop him- in order to save himself. Attempting to ambush-nolynch for no reason other than self preservation doesn't seem scummy to you?
What makes not wanting to be out of the game a scum-only trait?Irony: Wow. That's quite a reaction. Care to explain what you were thinking when you switched your vote?That you tied the vote at the last second to save your ass, which is both scummy as fuck and a waste of a day.
This also strikes me as incredibly scummy, though I can't say why. Maybe because it feels like elated RIA scum laughter?This feels like someone's trying to pad a case against me. It's pretty ridiculous to use that as a voting reason. "Oh, he laughed at posting right before someone, lynch he!"
Hey, guys. Sorry to waste a day for you, but I'm going to vote for Jim. I'm not going out without a fight, mainly because I came here to play this game, not get lynched by a single unrescindable vote cast on me because some idiot voted for me, then asked for a replacement. That's utter bullshit, and I'm not going to stand for it.You clearly gave up when you made this post, only seeking to waste our lynch on you tomorrow.
You clearly gave up when you made this post, only seeking to waste our lynch on you tomorrow.Gave up? No. If I'd given up I wouldn't be trying to argue with Irony right now.
So... yeah. There isn't really any point in arguing with self-outed scum.
Gave up? No. If I'd given up I wouldn't be trying to argue with Irony right now.You gave up the pretense that you were town. Afterall, upon your death your status as a mafia member would be revealed for all to see. Might as well waste the town's kill for a day if you can, eh?
Glad to see you're not going to do anything with the extra day.I'm gonna lynch you, and hopefully when everyone sees you put your own survival above the good of the town (by your own admission) you'll have enough votes to stop you pulling the same stupid stunt again.
Hey, guys. Sorry to waste a day for you, but I'm going to vote for Jim. I'm not going out without a fight, mainly because I came here to play this game, not get lynched by a single unrescindable vote cast on me because some idiot voted for me, then asked for a replacement. That's utter bullshit, and I'm not going to stand for it.
Unvote. I need time to form better suspicions than Shark, and I can't do that with this paper not done.Basically there was a sociology paper due 21/2 hours ago that I still needed to finish and I felt my case on Shark wasn't good enough for a vote.
What makes not wanting to be out of the game a scum-only trait?Because you're supposed to be playing to win, and finding scum is more important than staying alive for town. Honestly, if you died and were confirmed town, that would at least mean the people voting you would look more at other people tomorrow.
Hey, guys. Sorry to waste a day for you, but I'm going to vote for Jim.Holy shit Orangebottle, get out. I wasn't even paying attention to the timestamps until Irony mentioned it (partly because I had to look up the Pacific time conversion). I figured we had a couple hours to go. If you had done that before the very end of the fucking day (like a few hours before at least) I'd be more willing to believe you. As it is, die. Mormota pulled that shit at LyLo in BM XXVII and that hurt, so very-last-minute vote shit doesn't fly with me.
Shorten. Screw that auto-extend. GTFO this spaceship.
Are there Jesters in this game?No. You should probably read the OP. A simple CTRL+F gave me that information.
Orangebottle, what is this? The instant people begin to vote you, instead of explaining yourself and why you did it, you just "bow out". If you're tired of mafia, then why did you even sign up? We're barely leaving RVS on day one. If you're just going to ragequit questions thrown your way, then you should hang or get a replacement. Also, you vote dariush because... you don't like his meta? It was RVS, but still, give a person a chance in a new game!
This also looks like a lazy bandwagon.
How does ragequitting make a person scum?
Mostly because of flimsily justified bandwagon vote (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2822637#msg2822637). Or rather, the only thing of content he posted before ditching the game.
Jim: You spend a lot of time jabbing at people for bandwagoning, but that's just under half of your solid post-RVS content today. What are your own thoughts on Orangebottle?
He has a shitty day game that lots of people are taking advantage of right now.
So what's his alignment? This is a bit evasive for someone who is usually very blunt.
I thought saying that Orangebottle was getting taken advantage of would have made it clear.
I think he's town.
Jim: It may have been clear to you, but I still wanted to hear you say it. What makes you think so? It can't be his day game, since according to you it is "shitty". Your later comment seems to indicate that it's because of the nature of the attacks on him- is that the case?
Shitty play isn't necessarily scummy play. He's making many of the same mistakes I saw him make as town in other games. (Particularly Wild Wild West Mafia. See my reply to Leafsnail.) Essentially, I recognize his meta, even if it's objectively terrible play.
The attacks on him by other players don't really affect my opinion of him very much.
Your arguments don't tell me that you think he's town. From what I read, you're telling me you don't think he's scum... because he's a bad player? That's the Org defense, and it's not any more valid here than when he did it. You should know better than that.
I don't know how much more I can say about this. Bending backwards from pressure is a familiar thing for Orangebottle to do. If it was the only thing he was doing I'd be more concerned, but he's still around hunting and arguing and so on.
This is the best laugh I've had in a while.
I'm only going to be laughing harder when I'm lynched.
The part where you're willing to sacrifice a lynch to do it, in a way that's deliberately designed to prevent anyone from stopping you.What makes not wanting to be out of the game a scum-only trait?Irony: Wow. That's quite a reaction. Care to explain what you were thinking when you switched your vote?That you tied the vote at the last second to save your ass, which is both scummy as fuck and a waste of a day.
That's not an explicit voting reason, I was just pointing out that you seem like gleeful scum to me.QuoteThis also strikes me as incredibly scummy, though I can't say why. Maybe because it feels like elated RIA scum laughter?This feels like someone's trying to pad a case against me. It's pretty ridiculous to use that as a voting reason. "Oh, he laughed at posting right before someone, lynch he!"
Basically there was a sociology paper due 21/2 hours ago that I still needed to finish and I felt my case on Shark wasn't good enough for a vote.Ah, alright then. Have you been busy this whole game?
If you had done that before the very end of the fucking day (like a few hours before at least) I'd be more willing to believe you.So, you'd have been alright with him tying the vote to stay alive by voting someone he didn't really suspect, so long as it wasn't at the end of the day like that?
Orange: Yup, you failed. If you honestly suspected Jim more than Nuke, you would have changed your vote a while back- not right at lynch time. Enjoy the noose.Someday we'll remember this and laugh. and laugh. and laugh. Oh boy. (http://p1.portal2sounds.com/226)
Orangebottle:I wasn't informed that Mephansteras was going to be extending the day/deleting my vote at all after I PM'd him. I didn't really want Jim to get lynched at that point.
The part where you're willing to sacrifice a lynch to do it, in a way that's deliberately designed to prevent anyone from stopping you.
Imiknorris:Since Monday. Finals week.Basically there was a sociology paper due 21/2 hours ago that I still needed to finish and I felt my case on Shark wasn't good enough for a vote.Ah, alright then. Have you been busy this whole game?
I can understand his given explanation (I know I'd hate to be lynched by someone who stopped playing the game), but it doesn't work unless he gives us time to actually do something about it. Otherwise, it's just a wasted day, and what townie would want that?If you had done that before the very end of the fucking day (like a few hours before at least) I'd be more willing to believe you.So, you'd have been alright with him tying the vote to stay alive by voting someone he didn't really suspect, so long as it wasn't at the end of the day like that?
[abbr=Of course, there's no way to really confirm this PM, and you have no reason to believe me, so bleh.][/abbr]You could have just posted the request instead of PMing it.
My mind told me that posting it in the thread would look desperate. :/
The day's not really wasted if we don't lynch someone, as we have plenty to look at from today.
Shark stuff
Orangebottle stuff
You're asked your opinion of him, and you don't give any clear indication of your view of his alignment.
. . .
You say he's town, claiming your citing the attacks of others indicate this.
. . .
Now, however, the attacks by others don't matter.
. . .
Now, several posts later, you come out with a definitive reason you think he is town. There isn't any real reason to not post this the first time you were questioned for more detail on your read of him.
Again, this is out of your meta. For someone who is blunt, you're being very slow to explain your reasoning.
Jim:
All day you've been standing back-to-back with me, keeping others from jumping all over me while I try and hunt some scum. My question is, why? I'm justified doing scummy shit as town because my day game is just that fucking awful? This doesn't make any sense. Just because I'm awful as town, it doesn't mean I'm not that awful as scum. I allowed it at the time because it enabled me to hunt easier, but I can't help but question your motives.
Jim: Okay, that's it, you almost definitely didn't read past my first sentence in the "Let me get this straight" section.Jim: Not exactly. I'm describing someone who makes statements like this:All I see you saying is that Orangebottle was rolefishing, which is an accusation I don't agree with and I suspect you for so readily agreeing with it.Statements that indicate that it isn't just bandwagoning that you have a problem with, but agreeing with the argument, whether augmented with additional arguments or not.
There's a subtle distinction you're trying to make that I'm having a hard time figuring it out.
I've said repeatedly I think it's a bad argument. What problem is there that I think jumping on a bad argument in a lazy way is a scummy thing to do?
...Does his opinion actually change in either of the questions that even remotely resemble that meta? Nope! Not at all! He basically said "Yes, I did say exactly what I did say" twice. If I asked you whether you are saying that Orangebottle defers to his attackers' opinions in other games, and you said yes, that wouldn't be a reason to throw away an entire case and call you a solid townie. Clearly, however, if the same situation happens with me asking Orangebottle about his words, Orangebottle's meta means that that would make him TOWN TOWN TOWN AND NOT SCUMMY. Even though it's meaningless.Second question: Two things:
*His responses to my questions were the first time I actually saw anything resembling the whole "deferring to attacker's opinion" thing you mentioned in his play today. Would you be kind enough to show other moments?
*His responses were just like those to me in Ockham's, with the confusion about how his own brain works and such.
As early as here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2823485#msg2823485).
It seriously took you this long to recognize, hey, this is a thing he does in other games?
Hey, guys. Sorry to waste a day for you, but I'm going to vote for Jim. I'm not going out without a fight, mainly because I came here to play this game, not get lynched by a single unrescindable vote cast on me because some idiot voted for me, then asked for a replacement. That's utter bullshit, and I'm not going to stand for it.Orangebottle: WHAT
THEEBWOP: Damn your ninja ways.Kekekekekekekeke~
I'm just sneaky like that.
This is the best laugh I've had in a while.FUCK?
I'm only going to be laughing harder when I'm lynched.
That'll be a little difficult when people are unwilling to (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2834754#msg2834754)listen to what I say (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2834967#msg2834967).Because you're scum, and trying to create as much noise and WIFOM as possible. Therefore, my suggestion to everyone else is to ignore you now.
OB, you're overdoing the jesterness a bit. And by 'a bit', I mean 'a fucking kilometerThere's no jesters in this game, you moron. Of course, you'd know that if you were paying any real attention to the game at all.
I'm mostly laughing at myself, and then there's everyone's RAGECAPS reactions, which I find incredibly silly.
Unvote, vote Orangebottle. Last minute vote gaming alone is enough to get you this vote by far, but your main reaction to being attacked for it is to laugh at the town? Seriously?
You don't have to be a self-loathing mafia player and it doesn't help you at all and if you're aware enough of the problems with your game then you should stop doing the stuff that causes these problems.I'm aware there are problems, but I'm usually not aware of the specific ones before it's too late.
If you have just as awful a day game as town as you do when scum, then if you do stupid shit it doesn't really mean anything one way or the other about your alignment. In which case, since it's inconclusive, why would I lynch you over that?That doesn't explain why you thought I was town, or technically answer my question. Your answer makes it a null-tell, which means I still did stupid scummy shit.
Because you're scum, and trying to create as much noise and WIFOM as possible. Therefore, my suggestion to everyone else is to ignore you now.Or you're an obstinate motherfucker who doesn't ever really listen to what his opponent is saying to him.
I don't think this argument thread is going to get any farther today, and I'm content with my moved vote for now. I'll come back to this D2 and see where it goes."I've got my mislynch for the day, so I'm gonna go hang out in scumchat and wait for the day to end instead of listening to any of his reasoning whatsoever." Why don't you use the extra time to hunt scum? There's usually more than one in a game. [That last question was directed at basically everybody. The game doesn't end after one mislynch.]
OB: Oh, you just happened to reevaluate your suspicions ten seconds before you were about to get lynched?"Just happened"? No. If you hadn't noticed, there was plenty of time between my attempt to force a tie and your question. In fact, there was plenty of time between my vote on NUKE and your question. I don't know why I'm even responding, since you're not going to come back and read this anyway.
<POINTLESS BANDWAGON>Lovely.
I came here with the intent of spending a few hours completely rereading the thread, meticulously noting down each players behaviour in a little text document, and then seriously cracking down and figuring out who amongst them looked the scummiest-So, Nuke, I'm sure that you've got your promised analysis now, riiiiiight?
But yeah, no, OB
...Did you really just go through the thread looking for everything addressed to me? Are you that desperate to get my attention off yourself, Urist I?
OB, you're overdoing the jesterness a bit. And by 'a bit', I mean 'a fucking kilometer'.
Mostly pressure, but also mounting suspicion due to his 'winging' story....Did you really just go through the thread looking for everything addressed to me? Are you that desperate to get my attention off yourself, Urist I?What were your reasons for your vote here?
Point? Stop being a stupid jester. They simply make town waste a day. Stance? Stupid jester.OB, you're overdoing the jesterness a bit. And by 'a bit', I mean 'a fucking kilometer'.What point are you trying to make here? What was your stance on Orangebottle at this point?
Mostly pressure, but also mounting suspicion due to his 'winging' story.
Point? Stop being a stupid jester. They simply make town waste a day. Stance? Stupid jester.
Also, Jim for the same reason as yesterday.
Do elaborate.What is there to elaborate? I didn't have anything solid on him - that's why I changed my vote.
What do you make of him being missing?That a Xeno abducted him. It's kinda obvious, really, since every other possible form of removing a player from the game results in destruction of surrounding or at least a corpse.
If he was a jester, he was right on course to being lynched already. Tying the vote at the literal last minute is completely counterproductive and entirely inconsistent with anything a jester would do. So clearly the reply wasn't to point out that you thought he was a jester, because that would've been stupid. Incredibly stupid. Ridiculously stupid.WIFOM.
Instead the reply must've been to distance yourself from the situation so that you could avoid taking a stand on it. Now why would you do that? Or maybe you'd like to correct me and tell me what was really going on.Are you stupid, moronic or COMPLETELY FUCKING CRAZY? Distancing myself from that 9-person bandwagon? Avoid taking a stand, despite me clearly stating that I considered OB a jester?
Nah, go look it up yourself, assfucker. I would've repeated it if you weren't so desperately attempting to... uh, I don't even know how to call your ridiculous accusations. Defence? OMGUS? Scumminess? Yeah, I'll settle on that last one.Also, Jim for the same reason as yesterday.How about you say it again so I can rip it apart.
You'd be surprised. Or rather, you wouldn't be. (No I do not)I came here with the intent of spending a few hours completely rereading the thread, meticulously noting down each players behaviour in a little text document, and then seriously cracking down and figuring out who amongst them looked the scummiest-So, Nuke, I'm sure that you've got your promised analysis now, riiiiiight?
But yeah, no, OB
Shakerag, I have a question. Why did you end the day with an RVS vote still in place?
A question for you: I've certainly had it impressed upon me on my time in Beginner's games that analyzing NKs is unproductive. By your first post D2 here, you seem to think otherwise. Why?The answer is in the question. You have had it impressed upon you in Beginner's games. You have been to Mafia school, and you have been told: this is how the game works. WIFOM is evil, non-conformity is scummy, and analyzing NKs is unproductive.
And when he failed to respond, you saw no need to draw attention to this? Point out to others that he was lurking, maybe try to pressure him into responding?Shakerag, I have a question. Why did you end the day with an RVS vote still in place?I wasn't satisfied with the responses I had been given so far, I was waiting for Pandarsenic to respond to my last post directed at him, and because I was wanting to get more content from him in general. He's been a little scarce this game, unlike what he was stating in response to Jim early D1.
WIFOM.
Jim: Any reason why MBP was left off your list of unsatisfactory contributors?
<snip>NUKE: Over the course of five paragraphs, you never gave a real answer to Shakerag's question. You ranted about beginner's games and old school and new school and mafia and mafia terms and conformity, but you never actually explained why you feel that analyzing NKs is productive. Unless (paraphrased) "Because BM says it isn't" is your only reason for your belief, and I very strongly doubt that you are so much of a contrarian that you would have beliefs for absolutely no reason other than to disagree with BMs. So, please actually answer the question, and give some reason why you think your belief is true.
Dariush: No. So, how exactly is preventing oneself from being lynched a jestertell?If he was a jester, he was right on course to being lynched already. Tying the vote at the literal last minute is completely counterproductive and entirely inconsistent with anything a jester would do. So clearly the reply wasn't to point out that you thought he was a jester, because that would've been stupid. Incredibly stupid. Ridiculously stupid.WIFOM.
Of course, scum is a very general term, and I should be more specific since I don't think you're part of the dopp team.Jim: Why?
Of course, scum is a very general term, and I should be more specific since I don't think you're part of the dopp team.Jim: Why?
That a Xeno abducted him. It's kinda obvious, really, since every other possible form of removing a player from the game results in destruction of surrounding or at least a corpse.I think I'll point out that this isn't true. An exterminator can perform an abduction style kill, although it wears off the following morning so it doesn't seem like such a great idea.
Are you stupid, moronic or COMPLETELY FUCKING CRAZY? Distancing myself from that 9-person bandwagon? Avoid taking a stand, despite me clearly stating that I considered OB a jester?Frankly, I'm not remotely sorry for driving a lynch on OB since his actions screamed scum from the rooftops. Nor am I worried about people "bandwagoning" on him since his actions screamed scum so loudly. What I'm more worried about is people not voting him for flimsy and nonsensical reasons and then saying "I told you so" afterwards. I mean, there's one easy way you could know for sure he's not a doppelganger in spite of him acting just like one.
You'd be surprised. Or rather, you wouldn't be. (No I do not)Ok then. Please provide your devastating analysis of these.
I figured that there would be enough information gained from the results of the lynch and NKs that a post-by-post analysis would be unnecessary.
Leafsnail and IronyOwl: You both seemed to strongly believe OB was scum. Were you surprised at all to see him flip town?Yes, and I'd say that everyone except OB himself and doppelgangers should be equally surprised considering his actions yesterday.
I wasn't satisfied with the responses I had been given so far, I was waiting for Pandarsenic to respond to my last post directed at him, and because I was wanting to get more content from him in general. He's been a little scarce this game, unlike what he was stating in response to Jim early D1.
I can't think of any other potential Xenozoologist who would snatch up Urist Imiknorris first, based on the stated opinions of everybody during Day 1. Of course, there's WIFOM, and there's lurkers who haven't really stated their opinion at all, so ultimately it all adds up to a gut feeling.
Dariush: No. So, how exactly is preventing oneself from being lynched a jestertell?
Soooo much WIFOM here, but I find myself agreeing with the basic idea of it. I didn't see anyone else that stood out as focusing their attention on Urist I prior to his disappearance either. However, is the WIFOM enough for you to vote based on it, or will you leave a pressure vote on the ever-absent Pandarsenic? This smacks of the plan that was just leveled against Shakerag.
vomitNuke, why did you hack Jim's account?
Dariush was the only person who popped up who really had anything negative to say about Urist Imiknorris.And that makes me a Xeno. No, disregard the above quote. Even Nuke at his worst is better than this.
My reply about him being a jester came after he tied the vote. I referred to him going kinda wrong in the head upon that 9-person bandwagon. That was a jestertell.Dariush: No. So, how exactly is preventing oneself from being lynched a jestertell?If he was a jester, he was right on course to being lynched already. Tying the vote at the literal last minute is completely counterproductive and entirely inconsistent with anything a jester would do. So clearly the reply wasn't to point out that you thought he was a jester, because that would've been stupid. Incredibly stupid. Ridiculously stupid.WIFOM.
NUKE: Over the course of five paragraphs, you never gave a real answer to Shakerag's question. So, please actually answer the question, and give some reason why you think your belief is true.I didn't? Right, yeah, I suppose I didn't.
Oh, shut up. Your sarcasm does not impress.You'd be surprised. Or rather, you wouldn't be. (No I do not)Ok then. Please provide your devastating analysis of these.
I figured that there would be enough information gained from the results of the lynch and NKs that a post-by-post analysis would be unnecessary.
NUKE: Poor activity D1My sincere apologies. I pretty much wasted that entire day. I certainly do not intend to repeat the performance today.
JIM YOU ARE WRONG BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG I AM NOT GOING TO EXPLAIN WHY.Play the fucking game, Dariush. Respond seriously to people's questions, don't be angry all the time, try to be less of a dick.
I figured that there would be enough information gained from the results of the lynch and NKs that a post-by-post analysis would be unnecessary.So you had no suspicions.
I assume that there is information to be gained from looking at NKs. I have never had a reason to question this assumption. Shakerag asked why I didn't believe what he had been taught: that is because I was never taught it. I do not feel the need to prove my belief is true, unless someone can provide information to prove it isn't.Then what's so special about last night that you've got nothing, despite realizing you'd fucked up during the day and thus really needed to get a move on here?
Get off my lawn, whippersnapper!
And when he failed to respond, you saw no need to draw attention to this? Point out to others that he was lurking, maybe try to pressure him into responding?
See, it looks like you were content to just let the whole OB thing play out, whilst you sat back on the excuse that 'Pandar hasn't answered my questions yet'.
So you had NO OTHER thought on any other player? The events surrounding OrangeBottle didn't hold any kind of interest for you? Were you watching the game at all? If so, I'd like to hear your thoughts on other players besides Pandarsenic - in fact, I want to hear what you have to say on Pandar as well, since you appear to have spent so much time on the lookout for him.
vomitNuke, why did you hack Jim's account?Dariush was the only person who popped up who really had anything negative to say about Urist Imiknorris.And that makes me a Xeno. No, disregard the above quote. Even Nuke at his worst is better than this.
Leaving Xenozoo is fine - once 3 people disappear, we know we benefit from shooting the most suspicious if he gets axed. If not, he disappears with 2 anti-town and 2 town.
Extend to after Christmas would be nice.
My analysis is obviously not going to be devastating. Neither, for that matter, would an hour-long post-by-post analysis. With some exceptions, you people aren't morons, and I am not a trained psychiatrist. I cannot analyse 'devastantingly', certainly not from looking at just the raw data. What I can do is acquire what I lacked yesterday: any sort of lead whatsoever.Ok then.
Jokerman: For pressure, yes. I wanted to see how he reacts, and hopefully get him to give more information. His latest post is definitely keeping my vote on him.Dariush: No. So, how exactly is preventing oneself from being lynched a jestertell?
Is this enough reason for you to vote him?
Dariush: Is this seriously your entire argument against Jim's argument? That he's so stupid that he's stupider than NUKE? Without any refutation of Jim's points? Please explain, at the very least, what in his posts makes him NUKElike/worse than NUKE.vomitNuke, why did you hack Jim's account?Dariush was the only person who popped up who really had anything negative to say about Urist Imiknorris.And that makes me a Xeno. No, disregard the above quote. Even Nuke at his worst is better than this.
D'accord. Well, then, another question: How did Orangebottle's prevention of his own lynch factor into your read of him as a jester?Dariush: No. So, how exactly is preventing oneself from being lynched a jestertell?My reply about him being a jester came after he tied the vote. I referred to him going kinda wrong in the head upon that 9-person bandwagon. That was a jestertell.
D'accord. Well, then, another question: How did Orangebottle's prevention of his own lynch factor into your read of him as a jester?His argument about Shark's vote (that being lynched by an inactive player is unfair) seemed legit to me and when he made that post he wasn't doing jesterish shit yet so in no way.
His argument about Shark's vote (that being lynched by an inactive player is unfair) seemed legit to me and when he made that post he wasn't doing jesterish shit yet so in no way.But surely ninja-preventing your own lynch is the absolute, 100% jester anti-tell. Regardless of whether there was an inactive person voting you.
Pandar, Jack, Jim and the rest:There is definitely Insane Troll Logic being highlighted in this post, but Jim isn't the one using it.
Okay, I hoped that it would be obvious enough, but it apparently wasn't. Jim's argument about me being a Xeno is based on pure Insane Troll Logic - I was the only one attacking him D1, he was abducted during the night, therefore I did it. That's giant, ridiculous WIFOMshit, and Jim deserves to hang for it, in addition to his Shark vote on D1.
And now you can! (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=98055.0)Get off my lawn, whippersnapper!Cool story, bro. Also, I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Drawing attention to it didn't seem to be fruitful at the time. Everyone was pretty much focused on OB, and his lynching looked like a sure deal. I figured that anything I would have said would have just gotten lost in the midst of all that, so I was going to come back to it D2. I was sitting back a bit after that because this is my first non-beginner's game, and I was trying to get a better feel for being in a "real" game. My gut feeling for the day was telling me that OB wasn't scum, so I wanted to watch how everyone was interacting with him.Hmm hmm. This isn't good, you know. Mistakes made:
Any sort of analysis whatsoever: OB and Toaster were town. What? That's useful information. Rereading D1 is more fruitful the more people's alignments you know. Any analysis more in-depth than that will probably trigger accusations of WIFOM.My analysis is obviously not going to be devastating. Neither, for that matter, would an hour-long post-by-post analysis. With some exceptions, you people aren't morons, and I am not a trained psychiatrist. I cannot analyse 'devastantingly', certainly not from looking at just the raw data. What I can do is acquire what I lacked yesterday: any sort of lead whatsoever.Ok then.
How about any kind of analysis from the lynch then, if that's the important difference between today and yesterday. Because as far as I can tell you could have made the same vote for the same reasons yesterday.
Okay, I hoped that it would be obvious enough, but it apparently wasn't. Jim's argument about me being a Xeno is based on pure Insane Troll Logic - I was the only one attacking him D1, he was abducted during the night, therefore I did it. That's giant, ridiculous WIFOMshit, and Jim deserves to hang for it, in addition to his Shark vote on D1.Dariush: How about his arguments that you are scum in general? Those are separate arguments that you responded to just by insulting Jim.
Any sort of analysis whatsoever: OB and Toaster were town. What? That's useful information. Rereading D1 is more fruitful the more people's alignments you know. Any analysis more in-depth than that will probably trigger accusations of WIFOM.I thought your problem with having suspicions day one though was that there was no "solid information" to base your case on. Only now that you do have solid information (alignments) you aren't basing your case on that, and are instead basing your case on non-solid information you had yesterday (but didn't act on).
There is definitely Insane Troll Logic being highlighted in this post, but Jim isn't the one using it.Your arguments are so specific and concrete that I'm having an orgasm just from reading them. [/sarcasm]
Dariush: This is a completely serious question. Are you trying your best at the moment? Are you playing as best you think you can?Yes.
Dariush: How about his arguments that you are scum in general? Those are separate arguments that you responded to just by insulting Jim.When I see arguments like the ones quoted in my last post in someone's accusation, that person just faaaaaades ooooout of my miiiiind like a fucking scum he is. Seriously though, Jim vomited a pile of shit about how the single word 'WIFOM' is a horrific overreaction, vomited a bit more about how I'm the one who abducted Urist because holy fuck I've been attacking him on D1 aaaaand that's pretty much it. Can't find a single shred of sanity among all that horrific vomit, therefore can't defend myself except by putting up an umbrella.
When I see arguments like the ones quoted in my last post in someone's accusation, that person just faaaaaades ooooout of my miiiiind like a fucking scum he is. Seriously though, Jim vomited a pile of shit about how the single word 'WIFOM' is a horrific overreaction, vomited a bit more about how I'm the one who abducted Urist because holy fuck I've been attacking him on D1 aaaaand that's pretty much it. Can't find a single shred of sanity among all that horrific vomit, therefore can't defend myself except by putting up an umbrella.
vomitI did calmly point your inconsistencies out, albeit with extreme prejudice. So let's sum up what you've been doing: you've asspulled a ridiculous case (that you aren't even trying to supply now) in order to provoke me into overreacting to it... Uh, does anybody smell tunnelling here? No? Nobody?
Dariush: And this brings me back to my first point: is preventing one's own lynch not the most unjesterly action possible?And I can only repeat my previous answer to this question:
My reply about him being a jester came after he tied the vote. I referred to him going kinda wrong in the head upon that 9-person bandwagon. That was a jestertell.
My reply about him being a jester came after he tied the vote.Yes. Yes, it did. That's a large part of my point. If your comment came before, I wouldn't be trying to get you to explain why preventing one's own lynch is not the antithesis of jestering.
Your arguments are so specific and concrete that I'm having an orgasm just from reading them. [/sarcasm]I guess I can elaborate somewhat. Jim's case on you is reasonable grounds for suspicion (especially with your subsequent reaction), while your accusation comes out of nowhere (HE MADE A BAD ARGUMENT HE MUST DIE).
Frankly, all I'll say is that his reaction screams not-town. I'm not hugely sold on one or the other or a third option, but the way he keeps digging himself deeper is... yeah. He could be anything that isn't town, basically. I'm leaning against xenozoo, though. If he was, trying to convince people he's not how he did was a poor way to achieve longevity since if he was a xenozoo I'd be fine with him living a while longer.
Because I'm pretty much just skimming to reduce the time I take away from Skyrim, and because Skyrim, in that order. Also League of Legends, I guess.Frankly, all I'll say is that his reaction screams not-town. I'm not hugely sold on one or the other or a third option, but the way he keeps digging himself deeper is... yeah. He could be anything that isn't town, basically. I'm leaning against xenozoo, though. If he was, trying to convince people he's not how he did was a poor way to achieve longevity since if he was a xenozoo I'd be fine with him living a while longer.
Is there any reason why you won't take a more definitive stance against the person you're voting?
And how come this only came out after a pressure vote, and a reminder about a pressure vote?
Nope. Nope.NUKE: Any specific reasons why you get this read?
Dariush is actually town.
He is a massive asshole, really not playing a very good town game, but I say he is town.
I'm not certain certain, but I ain't reading scum offa him.
Right after Skyrim. I would say Dariush, which would be true, but I would bet a fair amount of money that you would accuse me of pandering to you (HURR HURR HURR) by choosing the person you cracked and who has, in being forced to commit to what he said earlier, has jumped fearlessly off the deep end. However, you are free to ask how many fucks I give about whether you think that.I just reread that twice and still don't understand what the fuck you tried to say with that. Could you please sober up before posting here?
I guess I can elaborate somewhat. Jim's case on you is reasonable grounds for suspicion (especially with your subsequent reaction), while your accusation comes out of nowhere (HE MADE A BAD ARGUMENT HE MUST DIE).Correction - he based an entire case off an extremely stupid argument that just reeks of WIFOM and which fact everyone else ignores. Absolutely fucking everyone. I just can't wrap my mind around how can anyone read his case and not vote the fuck out of him. And you jumping on bandwagon 'Dariush attacked UI D1, thus he MUST be Xeno who abducted him and not any single one of the other 12 players who wants you to think exactly that' doesn't lean in your favor either.
Right after Skyrim. I would say Dariush, which would be true, but I would bet a fair amount of money that you would accuse me of pandering to you (HURR HURR HURR) by choosing the person you cracked and who has, in being forced to commit to what he said earlier, has jumped fearlessly off the deep end. However, you are free to ask how many fucks I give about whether you think that.I just reread that twice and still don't understand what the fuck you tried to say with that. Could you please sober up before posting here?
Correction - he based an entire case off an extremely stupid argument that just reeks of WIFOM and which fact everyone else ignores. Absolutely fucking everyone. I just can't wrap my mind around how can anyone read his case and not vote the fuck out of him. And you jumping on bandwagon 'Dariush attacked UI D1, thus he MUST be Xeno who abducted him and not any single one of the other 12 players who wants you to think exactly that' doesn't lean in your favor either.You're posting things like this because you committed yourself to the argument that Jim's argument is crazy and now you're locked on that path because you don't have a sane rebuttal.
MBP promised content. He has yet to deliver. Seeing as he does not know the mayor of boston OR germany, failure to deliver on time is unacceptable. Can I get some extra pressure votes on this guy? Lynch All Lurkers and all that.
Nah, go look it up yourself, assfucker. I would've repeated it if you weren't so desperately attempting to... uh, I don't even know how to call your ridiculous accusations. Defence? OMGUS? Scumminess? Yeah, I'll settle on that last one.Also, Jim for the same reason as yesterday.How about you say it again so I can rip it apart.
If your comment came before, I wouldn't be trying to get you to explain why preventing one's own lynch is not the antithesis of jestering.Dariush: Would you care to explain this?
About OB (to everyone whom it concerns): exactly once during D1 I told him to stop doing jestery shit. By that I meant that I thought he was town (which fact I already repeated sometime during D2) and didn't want him to practically hang himself with his tantrums. I wouldn't tell him to stop being a stupid jester if I thought that was his role, would I? :-/
Point? Stop being a stupid jester. They simply make town waste a day. Stance? Stupid jester.
About OB (to everyone whom it concerns): exactly once during D1 I told him to stop doing jestery shit. By that I meant that I thought he was town (which fact I already repeated sometime during D2) and didn't want him to practically hang himself with his tantrums. I wouldn't tell him to stop being a stupid jester if I thought that was his role, would I? :-/That's not what it looked like:
OB, you're overdoing the jesterness a bit. And by 'a bit', I mean 'a fucking kilometer'.
Point? Stop being a stupid jester. They simply make town waste a day. Stance? Stupid jester.
Are you stupid, moronic or COMPLETELY FUCKING CRAZY? Distancing myself from that 9-person bandwagon? Avoid taking a stand, despite me clearly stating that I considered OB a jester?
So wait... your entire argument against me is that in your opinion I changed my thoughts about whether or not OB was a jester... And that somehow makes me scum. Right.This is really, really stupid.
Is that really so hard to realize that when I called OB a jester I referred to his behavior, not his role? If I thought he was a spore spreader... I would have said so.You did say so. If you'd like to explain why I should believe otherwise, feel free.
So wait... your entire argument against me is that in your opinion I changed my thoughts about whether or not OB was a jester... And that somehow makes me scum. Right.
Jim: Interesting move. Has Dariush's behaviour made you think that he's a non-xenozoologist scum, or has he just pissed you off enough to get your vote even with your belief that he's merely a xenozoologist?So wait... your entire argument against me is that in your opinion I changed my thoughts about whether or not OB was a jester... And that somehow makes me scum. Right.
Tired of this bullshit.
Unvote, Dariush.
If I'd thought.Okay. That's a plausible assertion, on its own. It doesn't do anything to explain why you apparently and repeatedly called him one regardless, though.
That he was a spore spreader.
I wouldn't have.
Told him to stop being one.
And even if.No. Your assertion is that you never called OB a jester, not that you said he was earlier but have now changed your mind. Do I really have to explain why lying about that would be relevant to anything?
I had indeed called OB jester at first.
And then stopped doing it.
What the fuck does that have to do with anything.
Okay. That's a plausible assertion, on its own. It doesn't do anything to explain why you apparently and repeatedly called him one regardless, though.Because I wanted to clarify that his behavior wasn't scummy as everyone believed, but rather jestery.
Do I really have to explain why lying about that would be relevant to anything?Actually yes. Yes, you do have to explain why, instead of scumhunting, you prefer to bandwagon because of a single case of phrasing that doesn't satisfy you.
Jim: Interesting move. Has Dariush's behaviour made you think that he's a non-xenozoologist scum, or has he just pissed you off enough to get your vote even with your belief that he's merely a xenozoologist?
No, wait a second. Unvote. Dariush. I can't think of any reason a townie would do that. If you were a townie you'd have no reason at all to say that. Since you're scum I guess you're just hoping that somehow your claim will make people unvote you for some reason? So whatever, die.Actually, I distinctly remember a certain someone from a certain game (hint: CoF in BYOP) getting lynched for reviving after not claiming. So yeah, if town is so lynch-happy that it prefers to waste two days on me instead of scumhunting, I'm not going to interfere.
Do you have an opinion on anybody else besides Dariush? Now that I think about it, I can't recall you ever stating what your opinion of Dariush actually was. You voted him, but you didn't say for what.
Oh well, it looks like the mod won't be getting here before day end, so here goes nothing.
I HAVE A BODY DOUBLE LYNCHING ME IS USELESS AHAHA.
Yeah, Dariush is apparently human and I'm going to be helping the xeno find his dopp and alien in exchange for his cooperation with the town.Go on.
I was targeted by the dopps last night, but was protected by somebody. So thanks, whoever did that.Are protected targets made aware of the action that targeted them? I wasn't aware of that.
Jim got targeted by dopp, and protected. No bodies would mean a Guardian.First is true.
Disparition of Dariush and return of Urist means Xeno got something he had already.
Now, to add to this, mind telling me why you came at my house, Nuke ?
I was targeted by the dopps last night, but was protected by somebody. So thanks, whoever did that.Are protected targets made aware of the action that targeted them? I wasn't aware of that.
So were you aware of a dopp trying to eat you, someone preventing you from being targeted/eaten, or both?I was targeted by the dopps last night, but was protected by somebody. So thanks, whoever did that.Are protected targets made aware of the action that targeted them? I wasn't aware of that.
Only if the protection's needed. Otherwise, the target of the protect is none the wiser.
Yeah, Dariush is apparently human and I'm going to be helping the xeno find his dopp and alien in exchange for his cooperation with the town.I think this is gonna need more explanation, since there's absolutely nothing in the OP that implies it's possible for an abducted player to return.
Hey Leafsnail, why'd you kill Toaster?I didn't.
So were you aware of a dopp trying to eat you, someone preventing you from being targeted/eaten, or both?
Specifically, I was woken up by loud sounds outside my room, went outside to investigate, was shoved back inside, and the person who shoved me back told me it was Doppelgangers. Then I heard some gunshots.Dopplegangers specifically? That seems like unusually useful information for flavor, doesn't it?
Yeah, Dariush is apparently human and I'm going to be helping the xeno find his dopp and alien in exchange for his cooperation with the town.Go on.
Imiknorris, how are you back? And what's your dirt on Leafsnail?
Leafsnail and IronyOwl: You both seemed to strongly believe OB was scum. Were you surprised at all to see him flip town?
Nice OMGUS ya got there, Leafsnail. That vote was a reaction test. Yeah, you're the scum. It is you. I'd say to let you get abducted tonight, as Xeno needs a dopp, but you're a nice fallback lynch in case none of your buddies slip up.Your reasoning is all over the place. Apparently, the Xenobiologist needs a dopp, and you want to help him get a dopp. But you think I'm a dopp, so you're lynching me. Am I to take it that you're betraying the Xenobiologist?
Meph, can the Xenozoologist release abductees at will?
Doppelgangers might be the only killing roles this game. If there were more killers there might be more ambiguity about who targeted me.I'd think the former would be pretty useful information in itself, but the latter does make sense.
If I recall previous games correctly it's usually possible to figure out which team did the targeting if a protect is successful anyway. I.E., dopps eat people or rake them with claws, exterminators do plasma chars, vigs fill people with bullets, etc.
Why? Who started this conversation, and when did you agree on it?Yeah, Dariush is apparently human and I'm going to be helping the xeno find his dopp and alien in exchange for his cooperation with the town.Go on.
I pass him information gained from my bugs (see below) and provide a second opinion on who might be what species. In exchange, he'll side with town on lynches.
IronyOwl: You missed Shakerag's question:So I did.Leafsnail and IronyOwl: You both seemed to strongly believe OB was scum. Were you surprised at all to see him flip town?
Why? Who started this conversation, and when did you agree on it?
Imiknorris, elaborate on your Day 1 gut feeling on Leafsnail.There was something about his accusation of Orangebottle's rolefishing that seemed off, even though his argument made sense. I looked back D2 and figured out that it was caused by these quotes:
I'm just pointing out that your question is flagrant rolefishing that no decent townie would want to answer.
In any case, a townie shouldn't lie except in very dire circumstances (being asked a rolefishing question isn't one of them).
I told him my role, as well as Leafsnail's visit to Toaster's room. He responded by stating that he'd go after Leafsnail last night, and that if he miscaptured, he'd like to free me and have us work together for mutual gain. I agreed because two town for a dopp and a third party is a net gain for town. This exchange happened on the 21st, within twelve hours of the start of D2. Near the end of D2 I told him that Dariush would probably be a better target (I had forgotten that the body double was a mad scientist tech and thought it was an alien tech) and he evidently agreed.Why'd you tell him your role, and what's in it for him?
(I had forgotten that the body double was a mad scientist tech and thought it was an alien tech)Bullshit. You want me to believe that both you, who had to pick techs for a different subclass, and him, who had to pick from the same pool of techs it was supposedly in (neither of which is very large) thought it was in the completely wrong category?
Why'd you tell him your role, and what's in it for him?I told him my role and gave him my information because if I was going to be abducted I would still take a likely dopp with me. What's in it for him is the same thing that's in it for me: The abductions of a dopp and an alien, which he needs to find in order to win and (at least for the dopp) we need to get rid of.
(I had forgotten that the body double was a mad scientist tech and thought it was an alien tech)Bullshit. You want me to believe that both you, who had to pick techs for a different subclass, and him, who had to pick from the same pool of techs it was supposedly in (neither of which is very large) thought it was in the completely wrong category?
Shakerag: You ended D1 with a pressure vote on Pandar for not answering your question. D2 you pressure vote him again, he answers your question, then you drop off the face of the game for the rest of the day, not even bothering to unvote him. Why are you being so passive and lurky?
"That vote was a reaction test" is doppelganger for "Actually, I think I'm gonna back out of this fakeclaim now".
Yes, I was very surprised at OB's flip. I'm also rather dubious of Dariush's supposed towniness, for that matter.
He's not getting any dopps, though. You're going to lynch them because one less dopp is one less dopp.Why'd you tell him your role, and what's in it for him?I told him my role and gave him my information because if I was going to be abducted I would still take a likely dopp with me. What's in it for him is the same thing that's in it for me: The abductions of a dopp and an alien, which he needs to find in order to win and (at least for the dopp) we need to get rid of.
I chose my tech early D1, and made that mistake late D2, having looked at the mad scientist techs maybe once in the interim. As for the Xeno, he probably thought that Dariush was a dopp mad scientist. I didn't tell him "he's got a body double so he's obv-alien," I just said he'd probably be a better abduct.If your knowledge of techs was so bad and you hadn't checked in the meantime, what made you feel confident enough to say what group body double was in?
Well, frankly, because I was hoping to not attract significant attention to myself until D3. Stick with me here, you'll love where I'm going.Bullshit. If you'd found a dopp N1, why didn't you reveal it D2? And if you were going to try to fly under the radar and rack up the inspects, why stop right now?
Okay, everybody. Pandarsenic was right; I have no alien tech. I am the agent, and I have found out that IronyOwl (N1) and Leafsnail (N2), are both doppelgangers.
No, I'm saying that I'd rather you be abducted, but at the end of the day one less dopp is one less dopp. My vote will stay on you while I question other people. Hopefully we'll be able to get rid of two of you.And then Shakerag conveniently comes out of nowhere with a
What fakeclaim are you talking about?"You killed Toaster wait JK is was for reactions actually no I do have evidence you killed Toaster".
Okay, everybody. Pandarsenic was right; I have no alien tech. I am the agent, and I have found out that IronyOwl (N1) and Leafsnail (N2), are both doppelgangers.So you knew that IronyOwl was a dopp yesterday.
EBWOP: Oh, but why did you inspect who you did?No, I think your initial "Trust Shakerag completely unquestioningly" was much more revealing.
EBWOP: Oh, but why did you inspect who you did?
Bullshit. If you'd found a dopp N1, why didn't you reveal it D2? And if you were going to try to fly under the radar and rack up the inspects, why stop right now?
So you knew that IronyOwl was a dopp yesterday.
And you didn't vote him. You knew about a dopp and you didn't vote for him.
Uh... huh. Generally it's helpful to think before making a claim like this one.
And then Shakerag conveniently comes out of nowhere with aI'm sorry to crush your dreams of a mislynch, but this is not a ruse. If you flip town (which you won't), Shakerag and I would be obvscum and oops, we got lynched. Why would scumcompletely nonsensicalvery plausible claim. You probably should've claimed in the other order to make this ruse less obvious.
I'm not stupid enough that I would base a reaction test off of nothing. It was more "Oh, he visited Toaster N1. I will ask him why he killed Toaster to see what he does." You panicked and OMGUSed me.What fakeclaim are you talking about?"You killed Toaster wait JK is was for reactions actually no I do have evidence you killed Toaster".
No, I think your initial "Trust Shakerag completely unquestioningly" was much more revealing.If anything it revealed that I'm tired and complacent.
He's not getting any dopps, though. You're going to lynch them because one less dopp is one less dopp.Whatever happened to me voting Leaf and continuing to question other people?
If your knowledge of techs was so bad and you hadn't checked in the meantime, what made you feel confident enough to say what group body double was in?I honestly thought the body double was either a medium or large tech item. Either way, I was certain it was alien tech.
For IronyOwl, it was this post here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2834649#msg2834649). Something about that post rubbed me the wrong way, and I had been feeling that OB was town during D1. So I was watching who was voting him and why. That post seemed chainsaw-y, and gut feeling said to inspect.What seemed chainsaw-y about it, and why did you think OB was town? Why did you think he was town even after trying to force a no-lynch to save himself?
Well, this was totally expected. I didn't want to reveal it D2, because there were still a lot of players active in the game. I couldn't trust that there would be another doctor-like power role after Toaster bought the farm, so I figured once I claimed I would be dead that night. Trading my life for just one dopp didn't seem like the best course of action with so many people left. So I took the chance that I wouldn't get killed and/or abducted for a second night so that way when I claimed on D3, I'd have at least two inspects to reveal. Since I had managed to get two dopp inspects, pushing my luck for a third night seemed way too risky, so I decided to claim now.This doesn't explain why you weren't concerned about dying regardless, or if you weren't why you suddenly decided now was the time.
Yes, that is correct. I knew IronyOwl was a dopp. I was afraid that if I had voted for him, that would draw attention to me and make me more likely as a NK-candidate. So I figured that I would just poke around elsewhere, keep a low profile, and see what IronyOwl was doing D2, as that might help me pick my N2 inspect.Except you didn't poke around anywhere and you didn't use what I was doing for your next inspect.
Irony:Why would later days be any different from this one? Alternatively, what makes you think you can reliably find two dopps in one day, especially when your stronger suspicion is the one you're lynching?He's not getting any dopps, though. You're going to lynch them because one less dopp is one less dopp.Whatever happened to me voting Leaf and continuing to question other people?
For IronyOwl, it was this post here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2834649#msg2834649). Something about that post rubbed me the wrong way, and I had been feeling that OB was town during D1. So I was watching who was voting him and why. That post seemed chainsaw-y, and gut feeling said to inspect.Shakerag: Why did you feel that OB was town?
For Leafsnail, this post here (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=97189.msg2873394#msg2873394) made me want to inspect him.Why?
Yes, that is correct. I knew IronyOwl was a dopp. I was afraid that if I had voted for him, that would draw attention to me and make me more likely as a NK-candidate. So I figured that I would just poke around elsewhere, keep a low profile, and see what IronyOwl was doing D2, as that might help me pick my N2 inspect.So...wait, you were so scared of dying that you refrained from trying to deal with the known dopp/kook. Because oh no you might die. Please tell me you have reasons beyond "I'm so scared of dying I won't do anything". Just...please.
Leafsnail, IronyOwl: Before I solidify my day plan, I want to know one thing: are either of you kooks?
I agree about the kook claiming ASAP, but I'm just making sure.Leafsnail, IronyOwl: Before I solidify my day plan, I want to know one thing: are either of you kooks?
If either of them were kooks they should've claimed it the moment the inspect results came out.
Why are you throwing softballs to Leafsnail and IronyOwl? Scumbuddies much?
Leafsnail, IronyOwl: Before I solidify my day plan, I want to know one thing: are either of you kooks?No.
IronyOwl, how much bullshit are you going to call before you vote somebody? How about you quit talking big and make a stand with a vote.Yeah, fair enough. Shakerag.
I choose a 2 use scanner as my tech option. Night 1, Shakerag came up as an alien Survivor (I didn't abduct him night 2 since I thought I might be able to work with him later in the guise of a doppelganger). Night 2, Jack AT came up as a human Guardian.Leafsnail: First, it's called a Xenozoologist, not a Xenobiologist. Second, this part of your claim is bullshit, though you came close. I'm not a Guardian. I'm a Heroic Guard. I guarded you N1, and Irony N2.
Now I'm curious. What was your plan set?I'll explain after tea and breakfast.
First thing that seems jarring to me, is why you would switch the dopp you have in your possession. You get to choose which one you keep, and releasing the dopp ( that know your identity ) is stupid on survival related reasons. If you really are the xeno, you just released a dopp who know your identity back in the wild. However you think of it, Xeno is basically a survivor with a twist.You need to survive ( at least) 4 days to win, and giving you identity like that is basically asking to lose....Huh? You seem to be completely ignoring the prospect of simply working with the dopps. Considering that I would effectively give them an extra kill every night for 3 nights. When I go, I remove 4 non-dopps and 1 dopp. That's a perfectly good deal for the dopps and for me (I win, they win).
If it is dopp mudslinging, then when you flip we have 2 very exposed dopps.That's why I accepted the deal - I didn't think there'd be a way for them to betray me without damaging themselves. However, it seems that a) Urist I has managed to make a deal with Shakerag and b) They have some combination of roles (think Mind Control Ray) that mean they don't care about being exposed.
A question, Leafsnail: Why did you agree to release Urist? What was your plan, exactly?Kidnap 2 townies. Kidnap Shakerag. Win. Cooperation with the doppelgangers would free me from the prospect of being killed by them in the night, and since "one nondopp kill per night" outweighs getting one dopp back, they wouldn't have any reason to betray me unless they had some really odd selection of roles (which it seems they do).
Second, this part of your claim is bullshit, though you came close. I'm not a Guardian. I'm a Heroic Guard. I guarded you N1, and Irony N2.Oh boy modulators too. Whatever, guess this is even worse than I thought.
Leafsnail, care to explain why you ignored Jack claim ?I was in a hurry to leave so I bashed the post button.
Oh boy modulators too. Whatever, guess this is even worse than I thought.Leafsnail: So, you think I'm an alien of some sort. Which one, then?
Hivemind, unless an Exty isn't killing.I hoped you would say that. So, why the fuck would I sacrifice my life (and thus the lives of the entire cult, in the Hivemind case) to see you die? If you were telling the truth, you would flip Xenozoologist, and prove to everyone that I'm lying about my claim. Thus, I would clearly be a lying alien, which I do not see as advantageous in any way. Especially seeing how both of your possibilities involve me being a third party that is a threat to the dopps.
So, basically, I would have to hope that people think that you were lying about your inspections in order for me to survive. Because I would have decided to lynch the person who called me a townie, with a claimed inspect backing it up. Because that's clearly a move that would help the cult survive. And, of course, I'd be doing all of this with the knowledge that you flipping Xenozoologist would lend some credibility to your inspection, and (more importantly) make my entire case against you look dumb at the very least, and somewhat scummy. Right...Am I to believe that you've never heard of WIFOM? Reaaaally?
Why did you "inspect" the people you "inspected"? Is there anyone you think I converted?I inspected Shakerag because he had some of the most amazingly passive play I had ever seen. Inspecting you was part of the deal with Urist I. I had no problems with it because I had pretty much no read on you at all.
So, basically, I would have to hope that people think that you were lying about your inspections in order for me to survive. Because I would have decided to lynch the person who called me a townie, with a claimed inspect backing it up. Because that's clearly a move that would help the cult survive. And, of course, I'd be doing all of this with the knowledge that you flipping Xenozoologist would lend some credibility to your inspection, and (more importantly) make my entire case against you look dumb at the very least, and somewhat scummy. Right...Am I to believe that you've never heard of WIFOM? Reaaaally?
Why did you "inspect" the people you "inspected"? Is there anyone you think I converted?I inspected Shakerag because he had some of the most amazingly passive play I had ever seen. Inspecting you was part of the deal with Urist I. I had no problems with it because I had pretty much no read on you at all.
Mephansteras: Just to be clear, is it possible to change the role/race shown by a permanent holoform modulator after the first use?
Leafsnail: Can you tell us exactly what the deal you claim to have made with Urist Imiknorris is?I abduct the useless and going to be lynched again Dariush while releasing him. I support his claim to be town if necessary. He guarantees my safety from doppelgangers and allows me to pick up the two townies I need, giving the dopps extra kills.
How did you make the jump from Jack denying your claimed inspection to Jack being an alien?Because it's the only possibility - Jack having a Holoform Modulator. And only aliens have those.
What made you (or me apparently) want to inspect Jack?I had no problems since I had a neutral read on Jack and thus an inspect would be the best way to get a read. As for why you wanted to, why not ask yourself?
And if, as you state, I'm a dopp and Shakerag and Jack are aliens, why would three nontown fakeclaim (inviting us all to be lynched "when" you flip Xeno) just to get rid of you, especially considering that the fakeclaims would be extremely obvious if successful and dopp!Dariush would get lynched too because if I'm a dopp, he's a dopp?I don't know, but I'm presuming your team have a Mind Control Ray or something along those lines that will make it completely irrelevant whether you're outed or not tomorrow. This is the last time I'll answer this question, since I suggested this possibility in my initial roleclaim which you apparently didn't read.
Leafsnail, let's ignore that you're desperate lying scum for a second. Why did you abduct Urist Imiknorris and Dariush? If Urist Imiknorris is a dopp, then what were you hoping to get out of abducting Dariush?First question has been answered. Second is cooperation with Urist I, as explained previously and above.
Now that it's been mod-confirmed to not be a possibility, what do you think?How did you make the jump from Jack denying your claimed inspection to Jack being an alien?Because it's the only possibility - Jack having a Holoform Modulator. And only aliens have those.
And how would a mind control ray make me outing myself as scum irrelevant? Whoop de shit, one townie wouldn't be able to vote me tomorrow. I'd still be on the receiving end of seven votes (eight if there's no kill tonight). Is there any possible combination of roles that would save me from getting overwhelmingly lynched if you flip Xeno?And if, as you state, I'm a dopp and Shakerag and Jack are aliens, why would three nontown fakeclaim (inviting us all to be lynched "when" you flip Xeno) just to get rid of you, especially considering that the fakeclaims would be extremely obvious if successful and dopp!Dariush would get lynched too because if I'm a dopp, he's a dopp?I don't know, but I'm presuming your team have a Mind Control Ray or something along those lines that will make it completely irrelevant whether you're outed or not tomorrow. This is the last time I'll answer this question, since I suggested this possibility in my initial roleclaim which you apparently didn't read.
...Uh...where? I don't see any mod confirmation of that.Now that it's been mod-confirmed to not be a possibility, what do you think?How did you make the jump from Jack denying your claimed inspection to Jack being an alien?Because it's the only possibility - Jack having a Holoform Modulator. And only aliens have those.
Mephansteras: Just to be clear, is it possible to change the role/race shown by a permanent holoform modulator after the first use?
No, once it is selected the holoform is set.
...Okay, I'm confused. Leafsnail's argument doesn't depend on me changing my holoform. He's saying that he got one inspection result, I'm claiming something different, and thus I must be using a holoform modulator and claiming something different from the modulator's portrayal of me.Mephansteras: Just to be clear, is it possible to change the role/race shown by a permanent holoform modulator after the first use?
No, once it is selected the holoform is set.
So you didn't change your holoform.
What did you have to gain by doing this? What did the dopp team have to gain by doing this?Yeah, I was jusssst thinking that I really wanted to answer that question one more time.
And how would a mind control ray make me outing myself as scum irrelevant? Whoop de shit, one townie wouldn't be able to vote me tomorrow. I'd still be on the receiving end of seven votes (eight if there's no kill tonight). Is there any possible combination of roles that would save me from getting overwhelmingly lynched if you flip Xeno?After a kill there'd be 12 players left tomorrow. You + 3 dopps including Dariush + Shakerag + Mind Control Ray is 6 votes. 7 other players - Mind Control Ray is 6 votes. IE a tie. IE a scum majority after you kill in the next night. Counting is generally helpful, huh?
So you didn't change your holoform.Yeah, and there's absolutely nothing to say he did, or even that he used a Permanent Holoform as opposed to an Advanced Holoform (which I'd say is better anyway).
After a kill there'd be 12 players left tomorrow. You + 3 dopps including Dariush + Shakerag + Mind Control Ray is 6 votes. 7 other players - Mind Control Ray is 6 votes. IE a tie. IE a scum majority after you kill in the next night. Counting is generally helpful, huh?There's a flaw in your plan - the mind control would wear off the next day.
In other words, all you have to do is get a player who isn't town lynched today with multiple people claiming stuff against him at a time when noone in the town would think they are in danger. I think I've layed this out clearly enough, but you can keep belligerantly claiming you have no motive for what you're doing if you like.
Yeah, and there's absolutely nothing to say he did, or even that he used a Permanent Holoform as opposed to an Advanced Holoform (which I'd say is better anyway).
...Okay, I'm confused. Leafsnail's argument doesn't depend on me changing my holoform. He's saying that he got one inspection result, I'm claiming something different, and thus I must be using a holoform modulator and claiming something different from the modulator's portrayal of me.I thought his argument for your being an alien revolved around you changing the holoform. I don't know why I'm being a moron today.
But if you wanted to work with the dopps you could've just PMed them instead of return one of their members back to them.Yeah. And they'd trust me because, uh...
And you also capture a dopp and scan an alien Night 1, and with the game essentially half-won for you, you decide to capture another dopp Night 2 instead of the alien, revealing your identity to the dopps in the process.The alien would be a useful potential ally, especially along with the dopps. If I did catch the alien, I'd have another 2 nights to go dodging lynches, inspections and nightkills. 3 nights with strong protection is better than 2 nights with none.
There's a flaw in your plan - the mind control would wear off the next day.Then I'd guess you have something else too. Mind Control is an example.
To help bury the person who could potentially abduct him/ finish off a doppelganger at no risk to himself (since he knows I'm not gonna flip town my inspection would have no credibility anyway). Heck, maybe he thinks I'm gonna flip dopp and that him agreeing with my inspection would be actively damaging.But you claimed he was a guardian and then he claimed he was a heroic guard. You then assumed a holoform and called him an alien. Would you like me to quote that for you, since you seem to not remember it?So he's an alien who used a holoform to look like a guardian then fakeclaimed to... do what exactly?
To help bury the person who could potentially abduct him/ finish off a doppelganger at no risk to himself (since he knows I'm not gonna flip town my inspection would have no credibility anyway). Heck, maybe he thinks I'm gonna flip dopp and that him agreeing with my inspection would be actively damaging.How does you flipping xeno invalidate your inspection? If anything, that would make it more credible.
Now, I'm getting kindof tired of scum just asking me inane, repetitive questions constantly. Could some townies (or at least people who aren't guaranteed to be out to get me) please come down and, y'know, say something? Anything?What about Jim? He's been asking you "inane, repetitive questions" too. Do you think he's scum or otherwise guaranteed to be out to get you?
How does you flipping xeno invalidate your inspection? If anything, that would make it more credible.Because a Xeno is not town. Maybe I was telling the truth, maybe I wasn't. And in any case, Jack AT has no way of knowing my actual alignment, and may have assumed I was a doppelganger due to Shakerag's damning-if-nonsensical claim.
What about Jim? He's been asking you "inane, repetitive questions" too. Do you think he's scum or otherwise guaranteed to be out to get you?Since I know your dopp buddies are backing you up it seems likely.
So Urist Imiknorris the dopp advised you to capture Dariush the dopp?
Makes perfect sense.
What did you have to gain by doing this? What did the dopp team have to gain by doing this?
But if you wanted to work with the dopps you could've just PMed them instead of return one of their members back to them.
And you also capture a dopp and scan an alien Night 1, and with the game essentially half-won for you, you decide to capture another dopp Night 2 instead of the alien, revealing your identity to the dopps in the process.
Wheras actually returning a member gives them someone to talk to who can vouch for me as a Xeno.
What did you have to gain by doing this? What did the dopp team have to gain by doing this?
That's easy: they could swap one relatively useless dopp (who looks like a scummy scumbag to the town anyway) for another dopp with a relatively more powerful role. Did that really not occur to you at all? Strange, considering you were convinced he was scum yesterday.
Strange, considering you were convinced he was scum yesterday.
WIFOM as fuck. "Could've PMed them" is a straight-up useless point. Yeah sure, he could have. He could also have done an infinite number of things.
If what Leafsnail is claiming is true (which, to be clear, I do not entirely believe just yet - however, I am a fan of playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of argument) then yes, he would have captured a dopp after scanning an alien, because that removes the liability that is Dariush, and secures a partnership with the dopps.
Wheras actually returning a member gives them someone to talk to who can vouch for me as a Xeno.
Also that.
I'm going to use a different definition of the word tunneling in this case. You're completely unwilling to even consider another side of the case...why? What information do you have - that you are withholding from the rest of the town - that makes you so sure?
So, for now I'm voting Leafsnail, on the grounds his Xeno claim right now stinks to high heaven. Imiknorris' point that betraying Leafsnail would out two scum for no reason seems legit; I can't see any reason he would agree to cooperate with the Xeno then betray him, putting at least three dopps out of commission.This is the exact reason I accepted the deal - I couldn't see any reason for them to betray me, putting 1 dopp out of commission (not sure where 3 comes from - Urist I was out anyway. He's back now but Dariush is gone, so if Urist I really were exposing himself they'd be at -1 dopp). However, it would seem that they have some role (such as vig) that means they don't care so much about being outed anymore. Indeed, if this were the case, all the better if the town's blocks and such are targetted at the one outed dopp rather than spread around with a risk of hitting the crucial one.
Leafsnail: Why did you abduct Dariush last night?Dariush wasn't to be the one vouching for me. He was just the one who would be swapped for Urist I so that Urist I could vouch for me. He could have given me any other scumteam member... but why would he give me anyone other than the guy who's already been lynched once and is pretty likely to be lynched again on the next day?I understand the whole having someone vouch for you, but why Dariush? If Imiknorris is scum, he could have provided you with ANY of the scum team membersPPE: Actually, I forgot about the fact we can PM (just read Jim's post). Now this decision really stinks. The Dariush abduction makes more sense from the point of Imiknorris being a townie groping blindly for an obv-scum/alien target.
Imiknorris: Why don't you want the real Xeno claiming? It would corroborate your story.Bear in mind he did at one point. Although didn't actually name the Xeno at that point because uh. Revealing the Xeno's name would be bad even he wanted the Xeno to reveal his own name minutes later?
Imiknorris: Why don't you want the real Xeno claiming? It would corroborate your story.Because he doesn't want to claim at the moment, as it would put a target on his back for the dopps tonight to foil Irony's abduction. I agree with him because it would be better to wait until the dopps can't gain anything from killing him (if he waited until tomorrow to claim he could confirm Irony as a dopp, thus removing their incentive to get him back).
I thought that's what it was, but I wanted you to explicitly say it.Then why list him as a suspect. If he actually were a suspect of yours that would've been one hell of a softball question.
So, for now I'm voting Leafsnail, on the grounds his Xeno claim right now stinks to high heaven. Imiknorris' point that betraying Leafsnail would out two scum for no reason seems legit; I can't see any reason he would agree to cooperate with the Xeno then betray him, putting at least three dopps out of commission.This is the exact reason I accepted the deal - I couldn't see any reason for them to betray me, putting 1 dopp out of commission (not sure where 3 comes from - Urist I was out anyway. He's back now but Dariush is gone, so if Urist I really were exposing himself they'd be at -1 dopp). However, it would seem that they have some role (such as vig) that means they don't care so much about being outed anymore. Indeed, if this were the case, all the better if the town's blocks and such are targetted at the one outed dopp rather than spread around with a risk of hitting the crucial one.
Leafsnail: Why did you abduct Dariush last night?Dariush wasn't to be the one vouching for me. He was just the one who would be swapped for Urist I so that Urist I could vouch for me. He could have given me any other scumteam member... but why would he give me anyone other than the guy who's already been lynched once and is pretty likely to be lynched again on the next day?I understand the whole having someone vouch for you, but why Dariush? If Imiknorris is scum, he could have provided you with ANY of the scum team membersPPE: Actually, I forgot about the fact we can PM (just read Jim's post). Now this decision really stinks. The Dariush abduction makes more sense from the point of Imiknorris being a townie groping blindly for an obv-scum/alien target.
As for why swap rather than just pm... well, compare the situations:
- I randomly call up Dariush (Urist I didn't want to feed me the names of any other scumteam members - understandable) asking for his cooperation, with no proof of my role or what I want. Also I tell him I'm not gonna release his teammate and he's gonna die again tomorrow, lol. Note that this deal really is pretty raw for Urist I - heck, it's not even a deal really, just me kindof hoping that the doppelgangers will work with me for no reason and with no backing.
- Urist I, confirmed to be on the same team as his buddies, explains the plan to them. Urist I is in a far better position than Dariush, and is more likely to survive. I have proved that I am prepared to work with the doppelgangers, and as you say, they don't have any real reason to betray me (except apparently their team is overpowered enough that they do).
It's plain that the second situation would lead to a far greater chance of success in the deal. Yes?
Also, if Urist I's imaginary Xeno was looking for an alien, he managed to pick the one person in the entire game who was publically confirmed not to be an alien.
McArathos:Imiknorris: Why don't you want the real Xeno claiming? It would corroborate your story.Because he doesn't want to claim at the moment, as it would put a target on his back for the dopps tonight to foil Irony's abduction. I agree with him because it would be better to wait until the dopps can't gain anything from killing him (if he waited until tomorrow to claim he could confirm Irony as a dopp, thus removing their incentive to get him back).
Jack A T: What were your reasons for your protect targets?
I thought that's what it was, but I wanted you to explicitly say it.Then why list him as a suspect. If he actually were a suspect of yours that would've been one hell of a softball question.
Hm. Well, I can't argue with the point that, if they DID trick you, it implies they have more power than they need from you. I got the three scum because, if Imiknorris is lying, you've outed him, Dariush (who would return after your death), and Shakerag as dopps (since he would be lying to corroborate Imiknorris' backstab).Shakerag can't be a dopp unless you're saying you don't believe my inspection. He's an alien Survivor.
That begs the question of why they'd bother working a deal with you in the first place if they didn't need you. I don't expect you to give me an answer to that, but it makes your claim seem flimsy anyway. If you were useless enough to betray this quickly, why cooperate with you at all?It's quite simple. Urist I was the one who suggested cooperating with me. He needed to be released to relay some key information back to the dopps - Shakerag's identity as the alien Survivor, effectively giving them an extra member. That's presumably why he agreed to cooperate - he couldn't talk to his scum buddies or Shakerag to plot against me unless he were released.
This seems contradictory. Imiknorris wants to cooperate with you, and agrees to a deal, but refuses to name his scum partners or give you anything to help seal said deal?If he told me all his partners that would surely be too great an amount of "insurance". I thought having two dopp names and the name of their potential key ally would be enough.
You could have PMed anyone, even Dariush, with details from Imiknorris to confirm you were legit (like quoting a numbered line from scumchat that you couldn't know without talking to someone from scumchat).So I could've gone round to Urist I's house and waterboarded him until he agreed to give me a quote from the scumchat without giving him anything in return? Man, you're asking what Urist I's motive would be then suggesting that he could've made a deal that would be completely pointless to him.
Going through this whole rigmarole instead of a few sneaky PMs seems asinine and convoluted, not to mention ridiculously dangerous since the swap and cover story has to pass muster with the entire town watching.Abducting one person and releasing another is hardly "convoluted". And I'm not sure what you mean by "pass muster". Our story would be exactly the same as the one Urist I is currently spouting, and you seem to be believing that one fine.
Actually, Imiknorris' "imaginary" Xeno's move makes more sense from his "I'm town" perspective, honestly. He takes Town Imiknorris, who doesn't know who anyone is for certain. They guess "Dariush is acting scummy and has alien/mad scientist tech, that's a good shot he's either a dopp or alien", and Xeno needs both to win so he snags him hoping for the best (because he wouldn't JUST be looking for an alien, but you'd remember that if you were a Xeno, right?).You'd be looking for someone with the highest chance of being a dopp or alien. Abducting someone who has a tech that cannot be alien seems really counterproductive to this, especially when aliens are rarer than doppelgangers (unless they'd already identified themselves an alien via scanner or something).
While this scenario isn't proof Imiknorris is being honest, it IS proof that his story isn't the ridiculous claim you're making it out to be.Ok then. How about you instead take a look at Shakerag's "I inspect people without showing any sign of suspicion in them at any point, also I don't go after people who I've already inspected as doppelgangers and instead spend the whole day voting a lurker"? Tell me that his play looks like someone who knew that Irony was doppelganger for certain yesterday.
So, are you guys planning to have the Xeno claim tomorrow, or just deciding not to today? The reasoning makes sense, at least.They're planning to have the "Xeno" claim after the game is already effectively over, yes.
Shakerag info is valuable, and claiming an inspect day 2 with only 1 inspec done, without anybody corroborating is a death sentence, and far from a safe lynch. 2 names are good, especially since verifying one gives us the other.This is true if you could somehow psychically know you're going to survive and going to find another doppelganger. And even if you were to allow this, wouldn't pushing a lynch on the person you know is a doppelganger be even better, since you could get them lynched and not have to claim? I mean, if you look at Shakerag's actions throughout day one and day two, they are the actions of someone who wants to avoid attention and doesn't give the slightest damn about finding scum.
Also, you seem intent on convincing that scum got some kind of gamebreaking power that will allow them to smooth sail form now on ? I highly doubt itBecause it's the only explanation I can think of for why Urist I would betray me, and noone else seems to be able to consider that possibility. I dunno why you're saying "I highly doubt it" without any supporting reason.
Frankly, its because your argment needs a stagerring amount of luck to work, they need to have chosen the mind controller, to be sure that shakerag will not betray them, etc. Frankly, i doN't believe they would ''betray'' you if they knew you had the name off 2 dopps, since it's hardly a fair trade.Unless.
Frankly, if they indeed intended to betray you they would have waited a bit. I do not believe the game is so one sided that Dopps can win it without your help and especially with a missing member.Once they kill me they won't have a missing member.
Basically, your claim is baloney, implies massive stupidity from dopps, but also prefect prediction and groundbreaking power in roles and others, while the other possibility are that you and irony both are dopps, with 2 inspect backing it up for you. Ockam Razor's, Leafsnail .I don't see "stupidity" anywhere. Sure, they need to have roles about as powerful as in some previous games, but why stupidity? I don't see any need to predict anything either... anywhere. Claiming 2 inspects against one person means that noone is likely to question them. IE all the townies will follow them and they'll win. Kindof like what's happening now.
If the game ends and he does not have one of each, he loses. He only obstructs the win condition of the Exterminator.
Four dopps, as stated in the D1 intro.
What's your reasoning on Jokerman?
Actually I have a question for you Urist I. You apparently tracked me to Toaster's house night one.
Why didn't you ask the "Xeno" to abduct me, someone who you had incriminating evidence against, last night? Rather than just blind-firing an abduct at the guy who couldn't be an alien.
He probably thought I was more certain of Dariush's doppness than yours.
Or that the Xeno just blindly followed your (mistaken) lead for no reason.Comes in. You just said "Dariush" with no supporting argument and apparently he decided to do it?
So Jack A T, you "protected" two Dopps N1 and N2. Leafsnail's fakeclaim stated that he scanned me as an alien Survivor (understandable, given that I was calling him out) and you as a "Human Guardian". Obviously he wouldn't have cared if I believed his claim, but that was a pretty risky gamble trying to guess your race/role if he really wanted you to believe him. Unless, of course, Leafsnail knew you'd show up as human to anyone else because you're the Dopp Leader. Too bad you decided to bus him anyway.
inb4WIFOM
In fact, I'm not 100% certain he's telling the truth about his role either. Toaster was a doc, and someone other than Jack protected Jim last night ... three docs seems a bit on the unlikely side.This is bad, bad logic for Paranormal. Going back just two games ago (counting 19 and 19.5 as separate games)...Paranormal 19: 3 guards for 13 players. (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=83499.msg2376888#msg2376888)
I've written a perl script to pick roles and whatnot randomly. It has some rules that it follows, but it should make for a nice amount of randomness to the set-up. Note that while I'll generally just go with whatever it spits out, I may make modifications to the set-up in order to make a more interesting game or to test out a specific feature. Also note that I will intentionally mess or not mess with stuff just to screw up anyone depending on the Gambler's Fallacy.
Note that the script NO LONGER restricts most roles to only one or two per side. Being able to use meta-game deduction to determine that someone must be town/scum breaks the game, so I've removed the aspects of the game that allow that.
I think what he's trying to draw attention to is the fact that Leafsnail "guessed" your role, and you didn't refute him. This would be incredibly risky if he was guessing the role of a townsperson. So what do you make of that?I did try to refute Leafsnail.
Yes, it could be WIFOM. Perhaps the dopps have some inspections on their side. That's more WIFOM anyway.
Jokerman, why didn't you vote D1 or D2?
SO MUCH WIFOM
SO MUCH WIFOM
Pretty much.
Mod: Activity check?
Oh, and Flandre: You (Shark) have been pegged as having a goal of "killer" by Native. What do you have to say about that?He wasn't wrong. The right to self-defense is not a scum trait, however.
Mod: Activity check?
Not sure what you're asking.
Oh yeah, not that it'll probably be needed, but Mod:I will behave myself, promise!
Action: Plant tracking device
Target: Flandre
The best way I can think to help the town right now is to remove any ambiguity with my role. I am a War Veteran.
Oh yeah, not that it'll probably be needed, but Mod:
Action: Plant tracking device
Target: Flandre
Hey, I'm actually here now. I have reliable internet and will work on catching up soon. It would be helpful if someone could give me a brief rundown.
I am human, first of all. I am not too familiar with Paranormal mafias, and I have never played one before, but I think I can handle it.The best way I can think to help the town right now is to remove any ambiguity with my role. I am a War Veteran.
I figured as much with your "self-defense" comment.Now are you a Human War Vet or a Dopp War Vet, hmm?Yeah, that's likely not relevant anymore.
Are you familiar with and/or played a Paranormal game before?
Also, I'd like to see your commentary on the following.Sure. I will break it into nice little pieces so it is easier for me to explain.
Dead Players (6):The morgue does not contain much pertinent information, other than the fact that the hivemind is now irrelevant to the game and that one of the doppelgangers are accounted for.
Toaster - Human Vengful Guard - DEAD
Orangebottle - Human Medium - DEAD
Jim Groovester - Psychic Warden - DEAD
Urist_McArathos - Hivemind - DEAD
Pandarsenic - Human Guardian - DEAD
IronyOwl - Dopp Agent - DEAD
Missing Players (2):Since both of these people are missing, it is reasonable to assume that they are of opposing races, or MBP would have returned one of them to us. Leafsnail turned dopp when you investigated him, which means that Dariush must be human.
Dariush - Human CE Scientist - Missing
Leafsnail - DOPP CE Scientist - Missing
Present Players (8):Most of the information here are claims or investigation results. Imiknorris is human, so we can trust that his read on NativeForeigner is not contrived, and since I am not likely to believe that dopp-you would perform a gambit in which you mass-bus the other dopps, you are town and your read on Jokerman is trustworthy as a result.
NUKE9.13 - Claimed Detective (unknown race) - N1 (Toaster, roleblocked by warden) - N2 (MBP, reporter) - N3 (No action) - N4 (Jokerman-EXE, guardian)
Urist Imiknorris - Claimed Human IS scientist - Must be the same species as Dariush, and is not a Dopp due to Leafsnail and Dariush both being missing at the same time.
Jack AT - Claimed Heroic Guard - Inspected, but not confirmed, as human.
NativeForeigner - Claimed that Shark/Flandre is "a killer of sorts". Dopp (by Imiknorris's claim) and likely a Telepath.
Shark/Flandre - Claimed War Vet, unkown race.
Mysteriousbluepuppet - Claimed Xeno by Imiknorris, unknown tech
Shakerag - Human Agent
Jokerman-EXE - Inspected as Dopp by me, Guardian by NUKE's investigation.
I would also like to know if i have been protected last night. The lack of a kill makes me think it may be the case. If so, thank you to whomever did this.I protected Shakerag, and my protect ends up involving my death instead of my target's. So, I'm sort of wondering about the lack of kill too.
I think Jokerman might be a kook.How do you figure?
I'm thinking that the more likely reason for the lack of a night kill was that the target was protected, which would have to be done by a guardian to not leave a body. The dopps had three known humans to choose between, one of whom (Shakerag) was likely protected by a sacrificial guard (Jack), and I find it difficult to believe that they'd no-kill in that scenario.
Whatever happens, I suggest that tonight Flandre turns off her war vet ability and lets Shakerag inspect her.
Valid point.
Native.
Incidentally, MBP- how did you know I visited you when I did?
Of course as soon as I manage to come back I'm slapped with an argument I can't really argue against without knowing what's going on. ._.
So I'm guessing MBP's role was confirmed earlier?
Of course as soon as I manage to come back I'm slapped with an argument I can't really argue against without knowing what's going on. ._.
So I'm guessing MBP's role was confirmed earlier?
He's working with confirmed townie Urist Imiknorris, who has confirmed that MBP is the xeno.
Of course as soon as I manage to come back I'm slapped with an argument I can't really argue against without knowing what's going on. ._.
So I'm guessing MBP's role was confirmed earlier?
He's working with confirmed townie Urist Imiknorris, who has confirmed that MBP is the xeno.
How is Imiknorris confirmed? An inspect?
Okay, and what makes Shake town? Or is that just Flandre? Mass-betrayals aren't exactly out of the question. There have been a fair share of scum employing unexpected tactics. The fact that they're unexpected is what makes them so effective.
And that was the basis on which I dismissed it.Okay, and what makes Shake town? Or is that just Flandre? Mass-betrayals aren't exactly out of the question. There have been a fair share of scum employing unexpected tactics. The fact that they're unexpected is what makes them so effective.
Well, given that I've claimed Human Agent and have gotten three dopp results ... It would be fairly far-fetched to try and claim that I'm going to actively bus all three of my scum partners.
Even for an "unexpected tactic".
Okay, and what makes Shake town? Or is that just Flandre? Mass-betrayals aren't exactly out of the question. There have been a fair share of scum employing unexpected tactics. The fact that they're unexpected is what makes them so effective.
Abduction: When a player abducts another player, two things happen. First, the abducted player is role-blocked for the night.
I find it interesting that you're trying to throw doubt on Shakerag when it is MBP who has confirmed you as a dopp.
Okay, and what makes Shake town? Or is that just Flandre? Mass-betrayals aren't exactly out of the question. There have been a fair share of scum employing unexpected tactics. The fact that they're unexpected is what makes them so effective.
Well, given that I've claimed Human Agent and have gotten three dopp results ... It would be fairly far-fetched to try and claim that I'm going to actively bus all three of my scum partners. Even for an "unexpected tactic".
Just food for thought:Okay, and what makes Shake town? Or is that just Flandre? Mass-betrayals aren't exactly out of the question. There have been a fair share of scum employing unexpected tactics. The fact that they're unexpected is what makes them so effective.
Well, given that I've claimed Human Agent and have gotten three dopp results ... It would be fairly far-fetched to try and claim that I'm going to actively bus all three of my scum partners. Even for an "unexpected tactic".
Shakerag, it is theoretically possible that you could have bussed all of them as a doppelganger. It would have been risky, certainly, but the dopp reads you have drawn from your claimed Agent ability could very well have been knowledge intrinsically granted to you as a doppelganger. Even in light of this possibility, there was absolutely no reason dire enough on the first day to turn on your fellow doppelgangers, so the idea is sketchy, at best.
I hope that made sense.
Quickly posting before homework/Thief Gold/sleep: Tried to protect Shakerag. Got blocked: tingly sensation, everything went black, and I woke up in bed.
Jack human.Also protected.
Woo!
Kind of sucked there for Pandarsenic that conversions happen before kills, eh?
Got to thank MBP for being such a trooper, too. Kind of sucked that there was only one other alien in the game. Has a Xeno ever actually fufilled its wincon in a Paranormal game before? Because that seems like an iron-clad bitch to win as.
Because if i still could have won, the game would not have ended with dopp death. Asked to Meph. Also, Urist outed me, i would have waited more if doable, but at this point i had few options.That seems... odd to me? So if there were like you and an alien operative alive but no scum the game would just carry on with town lynching random people?
Because if i still could have won, the game would not have ended with dopp death. Asked to Meph. Also, Urist outed me, i would have waited more if doable, but at this point i had few options.That seems... odd to me? So if there were like you and an alien operative alive but no scum the game would just carry on with town lynching random people?
Reading back, it was a good choice. Would have been a pretty short game if i'm discovered N1 by scum.Hey, scum wouldn't off you. Since you take out 4 nonscum in exchange for 1 scum. Taking the scanner might have let you actually find the people you had to abduct rather than making abductions that hurt you and the dopp team.
We didn't all do well.
And yeah, you can post once the game is over.
Edit: which is now.
You're going to be "at the mercy" of anyone who knows what you are, so I'm really not sure how going with town avoids that issue. It does avoid town wanting you dead quite so much, but again, being found out and lynched probably isn't your biggest concern.
I'd call it a serve because you didn't get anything in return- they didn't promise you a dopp, they didn't agree to volunteer a psychic for you, and they certainly wouldn't have postponed a lynch to give you time to search for or try to abduct something. They also had zero reason to help you along in order to get rid of your abductees, because those are already gone and scum probably isn't going to want to waste a kill letting them back in. You basically just said "I'll help you and then maybe hopefully you'll decide to help me in the future, even though there's usually no reason to."
I'd definitely call that "serving" more than "allying" or "working together with."
You lost? Weren't you, you know, town?Wasn't I, you know, carried off to another galaxy for experiments?!
You lost? Weren't you, you know, town?Wasn't I, you know, carried off to another galaxy for experiments?!
You lost? Weren't you, you know, town?Wasn't I, you know, carried off to another galaxy for experiments?!
Sooner or later I'll return from there and rip your eyes out. Through your brain.You lost? Weren't you, you know, town?Wasn't I, you know, carried off to another galaxy for experiments?!I'm more worriedI hope that the aliens will decide that the universe is better off without humans, based on your behaviour.
Also, 16 players, and no kooks!? I'm sure wuba would like to take credit for that. Heheh.I'm the cause of most things. I'm pretty sure Meph looks at what I post, then makes sure it's false the next game. Because otherwise I could metagame all day long.
It's in the planning stages.This means it's going to be ridiculous, I hope. Maybe three separate, overlapping realities, each with its own rules and consequences?! Traverse reality, a simulation, and the dream world in a roving quest to defeat your adversaries on all fronts!!!
Except no. the whole point was that i'd find the alien and then get the psychic. It's not so complicated, if i am to ally with town, and the game wont end if i can still win it, i have no reason to catch a psychic town player before getting an alien. If i had captured Arathos and they refused to give me a psychic,then lynch me, the hivemind and a dopp would have been released. night arrives, lose 1 to cult, lose 1 to dopp, probly lylo. Sure is a good idea. I am riding them of 2 dangerous roles, at the cost of 2 townies (1 of them useless, too), it's hardly a bad trade for town.This is true, but it assumes everything goes perfectly- like that the town stops lynching in hopes of hitting an alien directly, for one thing, and that everything you need survives until the very end of the game, for another.
Actually, what you dont seem to understand is that the whole point of a Xeno is to survive long enough to find all you need. I weighed my choices. Between keeping hidden + safety against lynch vs being know to people that can betray or simply Nk at wish, the choice is rather easy.I think you're vastly overstating the "survive" component and downplaying the "get what you need" one. Even catching a single scum over the course of the game isn't a guarantee- just look at cops and vigs- and you've got two separate, additional categories- psychics and aliens- that tend to be small, high-priority targets for everyone else.