Bay 12 Games Forum

Mostly because Toady has also stated in the past that he's not sure how to go about it. His opinion of UI design, last I heard, was about the same as his opinion on his ability to make proper art for the game. With that in mind, the solution seems to be to do the same general thing, only with interface placement rather than with graphics.

That said, if he decided to go for an interface overhaul on his own that's acceptable too. I linked the most important post in the thread though in the first post, new bolded edit. Read through it. It actually breaks down the reasons why it should be dealt with, either as abstraction or fundamental systemic changes to individual systems.

Also nothing specifically wrong with the raiding interface, was just a further example of yet -more- features being added and thus adding complexity.

This is still going right?

Quote from: DukeFluffy on September 29, 2015, 10:56:44 pm

I am no longer going to continue developing Chapter Master or Interstellar Army Simulator 2015 (non (TM)).  Here's the full writeup for those who wish to read a block of text.

It's been a fun two years.  Thanks for all the help, everyone.

http://pastebin.com/qT9rpU1b


Edit: It's also worth mentioning I've uploaded all the source code.  Links are in the pastebin.

Well shit
To be honest it is a sad thing, but couldn't at least fix the majority of bugs? Right now the game is unstable, lost most of the art, etc.

I hope someone take over and keep developing it, I guess.

He included the version from before Interstellar Army Simulator when he removed all of the art.

No, Toady works on -bug fixes- and -bare minimum- optimization. He doesn't give it the attention it desperately deserves. It's glossed over as unnecessary in place of a focus upon new features, which layer on the problems and further interactions, likely further burying the code that will need optimization in the future to the point where making changes to it could very well crash everything built on top of it.

As for 'necessary' being a hyperbole. If it is one, it's so close to not being hyperbole as to make no nevermind. It is technically possible to play vanilla DF without Therapist, but I think most people would suggest attempting to do so is a lesson in frustration.

Every time I read these threads it makes me give up hope for this community. For every person reasonably pointing out that some level of optimization of features such as speed and UI needs to be handled sooner rather than later, there's 3-5 who exclaim 'NO! More features are needed! More shit that will slow things down and make the list of nested menus grow ever longer!'

And they act as if third party stop gaps are an actual solution rather than papering over the cracks. A method that will eventually fail to deliver appropriate results as feature bloat and further fps slow downs occur.

This stuff might not effect the next update, or even the next 20 updates. But the more updates there are, the harder it will be to fix this shit without breaking everything, fix it early on so there's less things to break. We can't just plan for this year, or next year, or even the next 5 years, but on the lifespan of the full project which is 20 years minimum. These will not be merely game breaking issues in future if not nipped in the bud now, but project killing ones. Make no mistake. If toady waits until feature completion to deal with UI and basic fps optimization? He won't be able to fix them without essentially starting from scratch.

Edit: think of it like building a house. You get the foundation complete and fully functional on how you want it functioning before you build on it. You get the frame next, then the plumbing and electricity. Each layer you build on, makes it harder to change what's already been put in. If you find out something in you foundation's has been fucked when you're just stuckoing the walls, then you have to basically rip up everything to get at it and fix it.

If you find yourself really hating the interface, take a break! Just put the game down for a few years. You'll find that there isn't anywhere else on the planet to experience a dwarf fortress, and either you will accept this fact and move on with your life or return to find the game as you left it: a beautiful, incoherent and utterly challenging system of childhood fantasy-simulation. If you're playing Dwarf Fortress just to play the game, you're doing it wrong.

Stupidest thing I've ever read on these forums.

If you're playing a game to -just play the game- then you're doing it wrong? Please. That's as backwards as the idiots claiming you're not really playing the game if it's not in ASCII.

It's a childhood-fantasy simulation and wonderful, but for god's sake it could be presented better. Would you go to a restaurant with fantastic food if all the orders had to be made in morse code and you had to climb ladders to get to your tables? Maybe a few times, but after that it's too much trouble.

As already stated multiple times, saying something is "just an alpha" is no excuse for Dwarf Fortress.  The problem is that these are bugs that are not being found or corrected because the tools to find them are not being built.  That isn't a random, expectable, careless mistake, especially not when it happens consistently for years in spite of people arguing that more care should be taken towards them. 

It's a flawed coding methodology.  It's a persistent bad habit where not only is it not being actively corrected, but any time the habit is mentioned, the ones who mention it are always attacked with the same lines about how it's wrong to even question the habit.

I don't know why this is having to be said over and over or why people are persistently ignoring it when it's stated, or even outright dismissing it.

An alpha's purpose is to make the game actually playable. A game that is in alpha needs to have information very publically displayed or at least have some tool for monitoring hidden information at all levels, otherwise you can't correct problems because while things don't act the way you want them too, they might do so in such subtle ways that you never figure out WHY they are going wrong.

And it all plays back into the interface again and again and again. If the game requires a third party utility to be playable, it is not a proper game, any AAA game, hell, any INDIE game that attempted to do so would be laughed out of the marketplace. DF holds a special place through sheer momentum but it is -dieing-. It is no longer the only game on the block. It is only a matter of time that people will create 'close enough' similarities that are better designed and more usable if Toady doesn't get ahead of the game -now-. Then it won't matter if DF is, actually, the best and most complete fantasy world simulator, nobody will care, because they will be getting a 'close enough' experience to that.

edit: Don't believe me? Nobody believed there'd be something like Gnomoria or Towns or the other 'close enough' DF-like games. Anybody want to take bets on how much of the DF-itch clockwork empires is going to scratch for a lot of people?

AND THOSE ARE MADE BY GODDAMN INDEPENDENT COMPANIES. THEY ARE MADE BY INDIES.

Wait for it. Just wait. Eventually, we are going to have sufficient tech and prebuilt and publically available scripts that it won't be unprofitable for a AAA company to make something like this and make it WELL and QUICKLY. This has to be dealt with ASAP or DF will die under it's own weight.

And we shouldn't have to mod freaking DFHack to get things managable inside of the game itself. There should be a method of presenting that information for the modders right away, and the best way to do that is to make the UI modular in the same way the graphics are.

Somebody who just picks up the game and has no idea about the community's extent will not know about DFHack, they will not know what mods or 3rd party tools to get. They won't even know about the Lazy Newb Pack, which most people consider essential to PLAYING THE GAME AT ALL.

That's unacceptable, it needs to change, and the sooner it changes, the better for the game's life as a whole.

There will come a time when making these changes will not be possible because making them will break -everything- and there will be too much stuff to find every single place where it is broken and fix them, thus breaking -more shit-.

The sooner these things are fixed -now- the less papering over the cracks we'll have to do in the future.