Bay 12 Games Forum

Most animal people in Dwarf Fortress are created from the animal person variation thing that converts the feral creature into a animal person. In the process of this, even though almost all animal people are given the humanoid layout, a good chunk of them (more then half?) lack the Humanoid_Joints flag that gives them wrists, elbows, knees, etc. that can be damaged in combat or locked and broken via wrestling.

I believe this is an oversight, as the Rodent-Man and Amphibian-Man (two animal people who were "created from the ground up") have humanoid_joints, making them valid wrestling targets. However, the Rat-Man and Green Tree Frog man do not have such tag, making their joints impossible to wrestle.

Incidentally, the Bat-Man still has humanoid joints added onto his raws even though he was an OG animal-man who later had his raws converted to use the creature variation system. (But he had humanoid joints back then, too)


I'm proposing almost all animal people, if they don't have nobones, and have a humanoid layout, be given humanoid_joints. Animals with digitgrade legs turned into animal men, might be a bit iffy (i.e. their legs look different from a humans) but Satyrs and Foul Blendecs have visibly different leg layouts yet still have humanoid knees and ankles, so I think Humanoid_Hoof can be included for adding humanoid joints to.

I'm not sure on insect-men such as ant-men however.

EDIT: My concern is with insect-men, don't endoskeletons have sever-on-break or something? Just worried it might lead to a lot of snapped-off arms and legs if they get humanoid joints, to an excessive amount.

James looks around nervously, staring at the reflection in his sword. The skunk-man gives his tail a nice floof, and pats the chainmail on his chest. "Feels...nostalgic." he mumbles to himself, vaguely remembering one of the flight suits he used to wear in his original timeline.

It's been a while but I recall reading a diplomat can arrive and offer to make peace.

I do think this should be expanded upon. I don't want a super in-depth diplomacy system but I do think you, as the player, should be allowed to reach out and sue for peace first without having to wait for a diplomat.

Doesn't even have to end the war between your civ and theirs, but just to cease hostilities between your fort and the enemy civ. Maybe you're bored of the war, the enemy's done constant sieges and you always fight them off, and you want to trade again, etc.

Maybe a system where you could offer various goods as reparations or something.

I only really support this for wars between elf, human, and dwarf civs. I feel Goblins should pretty much always be hostile with no willingness to negotiate.

I think unarmed justice beatings should try to prioritize limbs and the lower torso while having a penalty to odds of an attack targetting the upper torso and head.

It's been a problem for ages. Like, since the 40d days but the new combat and wound system introduced in the DF2010 era made unarmed combat a lot deadlier, furthermore with the pulping changes in 2014.

We often see the beater punching the dwarf in the head which destroys the head, damages the brain, or causes compound skull fracture into the brain, or damaging the upper spine and causing suffocation and paralysis. (or lung bruising)

Another option could be when a justice beating is delivered, the dwarf hits with half force. Might be a little too soft but beatings overall, in my opinion should only rough a dwarf up and potentially require medical treatment for a broken bone or two. Currently, beatings often outright kill dwarves. It's supposed to be a lighter punishment then imprisonment, yet currently imprisonment is far preferable to a beating.

I am alright with a hammerer's beating killing dwarves though. Hammer strikes are supposed to be worse than imprisonment and are effectively the dwarven version of capital punishment.

EDIT: Although I never appoint a hammerer. Reading posts in this thread, violating a production/export order is a hammering? If that's the case, that's pretty extreme. I feel hammering should only be for the most serious crimes like murder, conspiring with criminals, etc.

Pretty crazy the most common crime your dwarfs will commit (being unable to accomplish some stupid noble request because the noble has preferences for stuff you don't have access to like glass on a sandless map) is normally punishable by death, and it's been this way the entire time and we haven't really paid attention because we never appoint hammerers. I think it should be downgraded to imprisonment by default, and only hammering for murder/espionage.

Bit of a double post here but I have a big list of gripes I'd like to get out of the way, alongside suggestions for the new crime squad game Jonathan S. Fox is considering, although this is mostly a pipe dream as some of it would be a pain to code and fit more of a total remake/new game than mod.

First off, vehicles and pursuits

https://github.com/Kamal-Sadek/Liberal-Crime-Squad/blob/c2a0e24b7f974319e39dcaef161c51a0a59e7d5a/art/vehicles.xml

Currently vehicles actually DO have different stats in the game code for stuff like how fast they are, how nimble/easy to dodge with they are, and even how exposed the driver and passengers are, (and even which parts of their body are the most exposed) as well as how easy they are to shoot from. There is also an unused stat for armor thickness.

Note there is no stat for passenger capacity, you can fit 6 liberals in a bug like some sort of clown car. Vehicle damage is also not implemented.

Stolen vehicles DO attract heat but IDK if the heat is permanent or if it dissipates as it is transferred to a safehouse.

You cannot tell a liberal to stay in a car as a getaway driver. Annoying when you have a driver and they get killed during infiltration, meaning you have to have other liberals drive.

Ways to improve vehicles

Stolen status of a car is tracked better + more consequences. If a car is stolen, a chance it will be reported as such. (Maybe more valuable vehicles like a sports car and police cruiser have a much higher chance of being reported after a few days) Stolen cars not only accumulate heat, but have a chance of being recognized as stolen when arriving at a site. (As well as things like having wanted criminals driving or passengers? Or driving a police car without a uniform?) This would result in a chase. Maybe certain vehicles are bait cars or have a tracker that skyrockets heat until removed?

I'd add more stats to vehicles like capacity, (maybe for loot as well as liberals/hostages) and customization. (Either bought from a shop or DIY'd onto the car) Options could include better engine (faster car, easier to evade with?) better tires (better dodging events like fruit stands and durability?) reinforced glass (less chance of getting hit) or tinted glass (liberals cannot be recognized if wanted) as well as a way to "Clean" a stolen car. (GTA-y paint spray method? Changing license plate?)

Vehicle damage would be a thing. Not like Cataclysm where every nut and bolt can break but things like a damaged engine reducing speed and thus chance to pull away from pursuers, or damaged wheels reducing dodge change due to poor steering.

Mounted weapons like a turret for the HMMWV, (one passenger will be very exposed to enemy fire but can get 5 shots a turn like the M249?) or a mounted machine gun for the pickup.

Pursuits are fun but need more variety and differentiation between pursuers like Sieges. Maybe the police can deploy spikestrips to damage your tires, or the agents could use some sort of high-tech thing to shut your engine off, etc.

vehicles nutshell More stats, damage, customization and depth.

Political System

Currently seems alright but I dislike how seats swing between arch-conservative to Elite Liberal. I wish moderates would get elected more. I also noticed presidential elections are National Popular Vote. I would prefer they be electoral college (Bonus: Have election reform at liberal and above switch to popular vote) instead. Considering the events of the 2016 election it would be a nice thing to put in, although how you would effect other states would be hard (Red States try and stay conservative?) but it would be a nice touch.

I do not know how it works currently but it's possible supreme court nominations are always accepted. Realistically congress has to confirm them. I wish it was possible for congress (if stacked heavily against the president) to refuse to confirm a justice and leave the seat vacant.

Political Nutshell Electoral College, supreme court has to be confirmed by congress

Justice System

Only gripes I have are after a certain point (Made worse supposedly by a judicial nerf at one point in the version history. I know before that you can have liberals with black comedy levels of criminal records get not guilty verdicts) you can always get convictions (and even death I think even though lenient judges are supposed to prefer life sentences) even with a sleeper judge, liberal jury, and ace attorney. It might be a bug as I often get stuff like the prosecutor was really slick and had two liberals given a month in jail with a court appointed attorney for one vandalism charge.

I know the worse the crime the better prosecutor but I feel like petty crimes are currently prosecuted too hard. As mentioned there seems to be a cut-off (and its pretty low, too.) where no matter what you're getting jail, even with a sleeper judge and ace attorney and stacked jury and save-scumming to see if it was even possible to get a not guilty verdict.

This is especially bad with certain crimes that go on your record but do not give heat like credit card fraud or vandalism (ESPECIALLY vandalism on a site with spraypaint as each tag is one charge each for everyone in the squad and not just the one spraying, unlike the activity where you only get a charge if caught) meaning you can rack up a ton of them without really realizing it. I actually had a few credit card fraudsters get executed solely because they had hundreds of counts, again with the ace attorney and sleeper judge.

Speaking of Ace Attorneys, I do wish one could have other liberals defend them. Why do you need to have a sleeper attorney? If you can defend yourself in court we need the option to have a active LCS member show up to defend them. (Maybe if they don't have a criminal record themselves)

For liberal enough juries (I.E. one of the members flash a LCS sign or was a best friend from childhood) the worst outcome ought to be a hung jury, giving you more time to attempt a breakout. Remember all 12 juries have to say guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, so if just ONE jurist refuses to budge, the trial is hung. Maybe charges can be convicted on (or charged?) by a charge-by-charge basis, meaning you can plead guilty to have certain charges removed or downgraded, or be convicted of some crimes but not others.

Justice Nutshell More realism, less "All or Nothing" trials, and punishment that actually fits the crime instead of the death penalty being possible for petty crimes in a large enough amount. Ability to have other LCS members defend you in court.

Quote from: Taberone on May 15, 2018, 09:47:24 am

Quote from: IsaacG on May 15, 2018, 08:01:41 am

Latest date: Revamp of the inventory system.  Currently, unequipped weapons cannot be detected by metal detectors, because metal detectors only look through the inventory of individual squad members, rather than the squad itself.  I'm not sure how it should be done, just that it should be different.

Hopefully disguises would still work even if the metal detector starts beeping? Also, good luck removing those 104 lines of code.

I like to envision that scene from The Matrix, where they open their trenchcoats and are so heavily armed the security just stares at them, stunned.
The beauty of programming is that it can work in any design.

I'm open to suggestions of how the disguise system should work in tandem with metal detectors.  There's no shortage of pop culture where people out-smart the metal detectors.  And then there are plastic guns, which are so illegal Ronald Reagan signed the law outlawing them.  Though the NRA is working to prevent it from applying to 3-D printed guns.  And the Undetectable Firearms Act has been renewed three times in thirty years because the legislatures have been unable to make it permanent, or to change the wording so that it applies to 3-D printed guns.

A few months ago someone asked me why flamethrowers were so hard to obtain in LCS, when they are legal to purchase.

Why is it every time I do research for this game, it leaves me terrified?

Whatever, no one knows where I live.

I swear there was some sort of version of LCS out there that let you bypass metal detectors if you had sleeper agents by having them wave you through. (I.E. the guys at the checkpoint would be in on it and turn it off/let you walk around.)

Also on a side note about weapons and disguises. It feels like disguise appropriate weapons are not being counted as such. I.E. I can have my liberals disguised as police officers with shotguns and I can set off detectors and have my "Liberal Weapons" noticed by conservatives even though I should be good.

I remember codediving a bit and I found something in stealth.cpp on the base branch

https://github.com/Kamal-Sadek/Liberal-Crime-Squad/blob/c2a0e24b7f974319e39dcaef161c51a0a59e7d5a/src/sitemode/stealth.cpp

At the halfway mark it seems to list which weapons fit which disguises, but when I go out my gun and uniform is yellow and it seems to still get noticed. (Maybe my liberals skills are not good enough to make the weapon look in-character but the message saying my weapons were noticed makes it look like the guns themselves are the problem, and I can go around unarmed without attracting suspicion) .

EDIT: On a side note I am curious why certain locations like the firehouse (and a few others) are hidden until policy changes enough they become acceptable targets. I understand messing with the firehouse hurts you severely in the eyes of the public, but what if I just want to explore it or recruit some firefighters/steal some bunker gear?

EDIT 2: I have Free Speech at Arch-Conservative and I can't find the Fireman HQ anywhere. I am playing on Multi-City if that has anything to do with it.

Also I'd like to mention quite a bit of recruits (I'd say slightly under half?) are showing up butt-naked for some reason. Kinda funny but annoying when I recruit someone only to have to buy them clothes.

EDIT 3: I have Death Penalty and Police Regulation at Arch-Conservative and the Intelligence HQ is still listed as Intelligence HQ and not Ministry of Love, I guess whatever is supposed to change sites for political shifts isn't working, especially because if I start in nightmare mode they have their proper names. As a side effect it seems fireman raids do not occur, yet hurtful speech charges can be racked up like crazy.

Maybe it can help surgical/diagnosis skills, too.

I mean, right now it's a bit hard to prevent doctor's skills from rusting. The ability to disect livestock and bodies of the fallen to increase skill would be nice.

I've noticed weirdness with trials, like 1 escaping prison charge and 54 credit card fraud charges getting me a guilty verdict even with the super ace attourney and a sleeper judge.

Even weirder, if you get a life sentance and get a not guilty verdict after escaping, it'll say NOT GUILTY!
Esther Krishna will be returned to prison to resume an earlier sentence.

Which kind of makes sense, but instead of being carted back off to jail, I was let off....with another "Escaped prison" charge added.

The criminal system is a bit iffy now. It's more "Realistic" in that you are much more likely to get a guilty verdict, but I miss the zaneiness of the older versions where you can get an entire page of charges racked up, yet let off the hook completely.