Fine, as you begged me to in DMs, I'll reply to your message, Salmeuk.
Now you can just select "use closest material" and check "keep building after placement" and it's one click per building, exactly as said. Even my carpal tunnel ass thinks this is less work.
this is useless for people who enjoy specificity in design ... so its useless for a lot of players
Ah yes, the standard "pretend like the entire playerbase plays like you to justify screaming about a feature". I've seen this with other people in the community, who like to claim that their specific playstyle is "a majority of the community" because they don't want to feel insignificant. The reality is, "a lot of players" is most likely, at most, 5%. Unironically trying to act as if being able to spam click down furniture is bad or useless for "a lot of players" is delusional, and counters reality. Even a long time veteran, Vargskelethor Joel, who in theory would be most hesitant to use this, immediately took a liking to the ability to spam place like this.
look, to completely dismiss people who don't want to use a mouse is a bit silly. DF made it's niche and then, with this new version, sort of failed to retain that feeling, and is honestly very much a different game because of it. this is not something objective, but entirely subjective.
Fair enough. As I said, I agree with adding the old keyboard controls back. Just stop being weirdly abrasive about it, saying shit like "how could tarn do this?
??" and understand that he's most likely working on it.
So when you dismiss various opinions as "you only tried it out for a few minutes, you have stockholm syndrome" what are you even saying?
Yes, actually. Have seen many, many instances of old players INSISTING that x or y was removed, are corrected by a new player who's found the new location of said feature, and then old player goes silent. It most likely is a case of them looking at it for a few seconds, deciding every function was removed, and then complaining.
That players who enjoy a game for certain features or functions are wrong? They are simply, "bitter" look its been out for like a week or so, bitter isn't even the right vocabulary word for the situation lol. How can you write that out without laughing at yourself?
Yes. As I said, this is very common in most games. Veterans who are extremely averse to change, having convinced themselves that the old system was perfect. This happens in the span of
minutes, a week isn't even necessary. Just because people got used to eating a steaming pile of shit in the dumpster, doesn't make those systems good, nor does it make their "certain features" good. So yes, based off past occurrences and the predictable whining by old-timers, they are simply bitter.
it is also telling that you dismiss the various "stop-gap" measures that actually functioned perfectly fine for what they were. I did not use therapist, I did not use autolabor; instead, I used the labor managment screen accessible from the 'l' key within the unit list with DFhack installed. This screen is perfection, imo - it displays immediately the skill level of the dwarves, allowing you to highlight entire groupings of skills at once, AS WELL AS allowing you to create custom profiles to apply to whatever dwarf you wish.
You mean the inferior Therapist that DFHack added into the game? Do you want to know why most people wouldn't consider using that DFHack labor management feature? Because it looks like this:
Games don't, and shouldn't, release with such obtuse and badly designed interfaces. Sure, functionally it may have been """perfection""", and yet I've had to explain to new players who tried using it (because they were unable to find the vanilla v->p->l labor management) how it works after they got confused. Not that it helps, because the characters at the top are unhelpful for determining which skill you're toggling. Regardless, even if they should, Tarn has specifically stated he doesn't want to just add a Therapist-style spreadsheet into the game.
This sort of thing should have been considered in the new version. Again, there is no bitterness here, just confusion - you want people to play this game, but you provide them with hampered tools for doing so?
It has been considered and then promptly dropped, as I mentioned above. The only hampered tools were the old interface. As even you agree, the vanilla labor management system was unusable. Claiming "DFHack tho!" proves my point further, because needing external tools to make the vanilla game playable is a BIG problem with any game. What Tarn is doing is fixing that past problem, and un-hampering the tools of the game. Unless, of course, you'd like to claim that we SHOULD compare the vanilla release of a commercial game to the modded version of the classic game?
look, us veterans are just waiting for DFhack so again, this really is not the stockholm syndrome you think it is. merely stating how silly these changes are in comparison to readily available community sourced plugins is, well, not an invalid way to criticize a game.
It is. The very fact that you needed "community sourced plugins" to make the classic game bearable is the problem. But even if it wasn't, begging the single developer to implement these community modifications is selfish. Most other game developers understand this, and avoid doing so due to the sheer feature creep and ever-escalating community expectations that it'd place on them.
Regardless, if DFHack is going to get updated anyway, why are you trying to shoehorn this into the vanilla game? Just keep using DFHack and be happy. Don't try to force your "perfect system" onto others. Not everybody wants that level of micromanaging.
To act as if some of the horrendous UI navigation controls were somehow faster than just moving and clicking once is dishonesty at worst, and rose-tinted glasses at best.
tldr; The same way you genuinely cannot fathom why people would prefer mouse, I cannot fathom how people managed to play with the terrible keyboard controls. I say this after having to use them for many years.
look, I don't know what game you are playing, but I can play old DF like 5x as efficiently as the new version, even after putting in 20+ hours over the last week trying to figure out if it truly is as broken as people are claiming. And yeah, I am not compelled by the idea that I will now need to spend 5 hours for every 1 that I used to spend doing various tasks.
Can you now? If we can make up fake numbers and exaggerate, then I'll do the same. I can play new DF at least 2x as efficiently as the old versions. Designating mining? Not a problem anymore. Placing beds, doors and general furniture en masse? Very, very easy with "keep building" and "use closest" checked. Oh, "but the specificity!!!", so you agree the new system is faster then?
Don't get me wrong, I do agree that interfaces like workshop tasks need hotkeys for each task, as it would be a lot easier than clicking every time.
please read into the history of the mouse-user interface in contrast to the keyboard, you might educate yourself into a new opinion. also, somewhat ableist to dismiss people's valid complaints about being unable to use a mouse due to various medical conditions....
The history being that almost every game on the market uses the mouse for the majority of controls with the keyboard also being utilized in tandem to create good interfaces? Most games don't provide options for only one of those, and as I said, I agree with Tarn adding the old scheme, just don't be as abrasive about it.
Yes, if they actually have medical conditions, then they should've said so instead of just "the inaccuracy!!!!", and maybe it'd have seemed less whiny.
FOR INSTANCE, in my most recent megaproject The Spry Volcano, I spent a good amount of time designating walls. However, due to the fact I was building a pyramid, I needed to create a series of slopes, which were not simple to designate, in fact this required a significant investment of time to simply lay down the plans.
The new version does NOTHING to support this style of building. So particularly creative players see little to no gain from the new methods of construction designation . . . in fact, they see losses in productivity.
The old method of designating walls was even worse, because you had to use UMKH to extend the length EACH TIME.
To act as if your niche style of building, which most players won't be doing, makes the entire new interface slower is dishonesty and blowing things out of proportion.
It's not like the new interface makes things less tedious, its just different tedious, so like... what gives?
Acting as if the new system of designation and control is even remotely on the same level of tediousness as the original is you spiting modernization for the sake of it. Change = bad isn't a valid argument, and never has been.
Just stop being weird about it, and politely ask that Tarn add the old scheme back.
So yes, while I do agree that Tarn should add the old schemes for those who spite modernization, I think it's fine to simply suggest he do so without being aggressive about it or attempting to project your coping of the old system onto others.
please don't project the hastily written posts of a few forum-goers onto the whole crowd. your use of dismissive language also belies a certain misplaced snark - what community are you a part of, that makes you think that tone is appropriate?
Yeah, guess that's my bad. Sorry about that, I've seen a lot of weird aggressiveness and sheer toxicity from a few on the Steam Forums and on here - and it's been irking me. Guess it's not everybody, but I'd still like for the OP I was replying to, to have been a bit calmer about the requests.
As I mentioned, I had problems with the old interface for the entire time I was using it, but I still do agree that Tarn should re-add the old control schemes.
