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Messages - Stochasty

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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 21, 2013, 03:35:32 pm »
Hmmm.  Never paid enough attention to the water flow rate when doing the double slit.  Based on my testing for the double-layer pierce, I had thought it was based on the number of aquifer tiles that were exposed, rather than the number of empty tiles exposed to aquifer, but I could easily be wrong.  I'll need to do some testing, then.

This possibility makes things harder, giving you much less time, but it should still be possible to stay ahead of the water; things should never be harder timing wise than the first chicken run, but I'll need to rerun my calculations to be sure.

As for all the water going down: yes, that's the entire point.  After that first chicken run, you'll have 3/7 water in the tile below the aquifer.  This gives you another 7/7 to work with before you have to stop mining.  As you channel out the semicircle, this gives your drain more capacity.  As long you can channel new drainage faster than the water fills, you'll be fine.  Granted, the A/D ratio is much, much worse during this process if you are correct about the water production rate, so you have a lot less time than I was thinking you would have.  Disappointing, but nice to know.


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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 21, 2013, 02:56:25 pm »
I have an idea for a modification of my method to pierce a 1-layer aquifer by draining the aquifer into the rock layer below, but I need to do some science to confirm whether or not my assumptions about aquifer water production are correct.

Some preliminary dwarven work indicates that each aquifer tile produces 1 unit of water in its neighboring tiles about ever 60 ticks or so (during the initial chickenrun, you have on average about 60 ticks to get the second stairway carved before the water hits 4/7; since there are four aquifer tiles contribution, that gives 1 unit per tile per 60 ticks).  Assuming this is correct, after the initial chicekrun you now have ~105 more ticks until the initial stairway on A1 is again full.  Since we've already estabilshed that our miner is faster than that based on the initial chickenrun, so long as we can keep digging drainage we can stay ahead of the rising water level.  Furthermore, that first penetration is by far the most painful, since there are four aquifer tiles producing water and only a single tile for drainage (this is the highest possible aquifer tile per drainge tile ratio), so as we enlarge the drainage area by channeling, we also slow the rate at which the water rises.

Thus, the method: initial chickenrun, as before (note that this will be more difficult than in the two level case, since the layer below the aquifer is rock; you'll likely need a substantially higher level miner).  Then, immediately channel out five of the aquifer tiles in a semiclrcle around your staircase for added drainage.  At this point, your aquifer to drain ratio should be down to 5/3 (ten aquifer tiles, six drainage tiles).  This step is relatively fast, since your miner doesn't need to move.  At this point, each of the drain tiles should have about 2/7 of water in them (this is a guess, based on mining rates and my assumption on water production rates), giving ~327 ticks until our miner is flooded and must stop working.

Next step: mine out the three remaining tiles around the staircase.  These three tiles will be on edge of the 3x3 plug we need.  This step is a net loss, since it doesn't increase our drainage and, in the process, increases the A/D ratio to 3/2 (nine contributing aquifer tiles, still only six drainage); you get a little extra in the form of the 3/7 you're allowed within the cave until work stops, so if we assume ~30 ticks per tile, we've still gained considerable time: approximately 597 ticks before we're flooded.

Next step: we need to be careful about water flow knocking our miner into the drainage pit, so even though we have time we're probably not home free yet.  The solution is probably more drainage: so, pick a direction (clockwise or counterclockwise) and start working your way around, channelling away the ring outside the plug and mining away undeneath the plug itself.  Each step should improve the A/D ratio and add more drainage, giving plenty of time to finish mining underneath the plug.

There are three main concerns and one big caveat here.  The first is my assumption regarding flow rate coming from the aquifer.  I'm guessing that the process is that, after a somewhat random number of ticks (average about 60) each aquifer tile produces one unit of water in each exposed neighboring tile; this is the basis for my time calculations. 

The second is the problem of water flow across the floor underneath the plug; I don't really know what the danger level for flow displacing the miner would be.  1/7 water won't flow into neighboring tiles, but that just means that the tiles underneath the plug will keep accumulating until the hit 2/7, at which point one unit will flow towards a drain (is flow direction random?).  Is that enough to displace the miner?

The third concern is the race against time nature of this.  Make no mistake: what we are doing is constructing an elaborate drowning chamber for our miner, and hoping he can complete it before it kills him.  This means we'll need to single-step the entire process, and hope that our miner doesn't suddenly decide to take a go on break, eat, drink, or take a nap in the middle of the dig.  The first two of those probably just mean a failed attempt; the miner should escape the pit before it fills completely.  The last two are potentially deadly, if the miner decides to drink from his newly dug drainage trench or sleep where he stands.

The caveat is that this is probably a stupid way to go about things anyway.  If the miner is fast enough to pull off this method, he should be fast enough to pull of a straight forward chickenrun.  (Just have him keep channelling out the area around his stairway, and every so often make a short jog up a couple of z-levels and then over into a new shaft for additional drain capacity.)  Thus, establishing a cavern drain is probably easier and more effective.

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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 20, 2013, 10:29:07 am »
There's a slight modification you can make to manage an arbitrarily-deep aquifer, but it requires a miner who never fails his 2-deep chicken run as it is not robust against a failure.

You still use S2 as your plug layer, but you carve out a 3x5 plug instead of a 3x3.  Let's label the five squares of the central area by the coordinates 1-1, 1-2, ... , 1-5, 2-1, ..., 2-5, 3-1, ..., 3-5.

When you mine out the interior of A1 in preparation for channeling, don't channel.  Let A1 drain completely.  In square 2-2, do another chicken run.  Channel out squares 1-1, 1-2, 3-1, and 3-2 for drainage, dig a double down staircase on 2-1, extend the outer drainage ring down one more level, and then mine out the remaining nine tiles (1-3, 1-4, 1-5, 2-3, 2-4, 2-5, 3-3, 3-4, 3-5).  This gives you a pristine 3x3 surface in layer A2, so you can do another chicken run to build a drain down to layer A4.  Repeat the process (mirrored to the other side) and you can alternate between using squares 2-2 and 2-4 for the chicken run to get you as deep as you need to go.  When you get to the final layer, channel out everything as before and drop the plug.

The only potential problem here is that all of those wall tiles above you are still producing water, so eventually you might out dig your drain capacity.  I've no idea when this would occur, but I would be surprised to find an aquifer with enough levels that this would matter.

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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 20, 2013, 09:53:21 am »
Thanks for the test and the refinements, Snaake.

I realized that bit about not channeling out the inner ring on A1, and instead only removing the up stairs, about an hour after I finished my demonstration run and posted (I think you had already started your test).  Bit of a facepalm moment for me there.  ;)  Glad you verified it!

Oddly enough, this new method now makes 2-level aquifers safer to pierce than 1-level aquifers.

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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 20, 2013, 06:59:35 am »
Okay, here is my completely safe (no surface exposure) pumpless method for piercing a two-level aquifer.  This method requires one (recoverable) wood, to build a temporary floor to provide access to the stairway down.

Notation is as follows: S1 indicates the first (top) soil layer.  S2 is the second.  A1 is the first aquifer layer, and A2 the second.

Step one:
At a point off to the side (two spaces away) from where you want to make the pierce, use Merendel's chickenrun technique to create a drain into the second layer of the aquifer.  This is the only difficult part of this procedure; you'll need to level up your miner, but once you get the first drain running the rest is easy.

Step two:
Mark off a minimum of a 3x3 area where you will run your peirce.  In A1 and A2, carve a double ring of up/down stairs surrounding this region, and then channel out (on A1) the ring outside of that, so that you have an untouched central 3x3, 5x5 and 7x7 rings of stairs, and a 9x9 ring of channels.  On layer S2, carve a 7x7 ring of down staircases above the outer ring of up/down stairs in the aquifer.

You should end up with something that looks like this (note that I used a 4x4 central area, since I wanted a 2x2 staircase down for future traffic considerations):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I should note that, when digging inside the aquifer, it is important to dig one tile at a time, working outward from your first drain.  Dig the outside channels first, so that you have a little additional drainage before digging the stairs.  Always make sure to dig the stairway down into A2 before moving further around the ring on A1.  The idea is to maximize drainage at every step; if you do it right you should never have more than 1/7 on any of your stairway tiles, and most of the time they'll be completely dry.

Step three:
Once you have the outer drain rings constructed, mine out the inner area on A1, then channel away the floor (into A2) starting from the center tile and working outward.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Step four:
Now you are home free.  From here on out, this operates like a standard cavein puncture.  Dig a 5x5 ring of stairs on S2 and S1, and mine out the central region above the plug on S1.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Step five:
Channel out the inner 5x5 ring of stairs in A1, S2, and S1, leaving one stair connected on S1 (this is where you will trigger the cave in).
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Step six:
Channel out the final tile.  It's a good idea to give the pick to some hapless peasant for this part, just in case.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Step seven:
Build a floor to give access to your plug, and mine down into the sweet, sweet rock below.

This method took me just over two months game time to complete.  The primary time sink is training up your miner for that first chickenrun; after that things are easy.  You might be able to pull this off in under a month, but there's no real rush (since you aren't exposed to the surface) so why hurry?  I took my time, slaughtered the pack animals and cooked the meat, and basically made sure I had a somewhat stable fort before descending.

6
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 19, 2013, 04:07:20 pm »
"Deep" or "Very deep?"

I've hit both 1 and 2 layer aquifers on "deep", but (I think) I've always gotten 2 layers on "very deep."

As for the miner getting shoved around: the trick is to run multiple, staggered shafts, so that you always have sufficient drainage.  I only have trouble with getting that first shaft down.  I'll post a detailed description tomorrow (a bit too distracted today to do it).

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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 19, 2013, 03:40:39 pm »
As long as you have "very deep soil" and no clay, you should be in a 2-layer aquifer at least.  That's what I search for.

In other news, the method I was thinking of to begin with doesn't work, but in the process I stumbled upon a method that does work.  It uses a cave in, but is completely safe (no surface exposure) with a two-deep aquifer.  Strangely enough, it won''t work for a single layer: you need that extra layer for a drain.  Basically, the idea is that you use your chickenrun technique to set up a drain, and then you mine out the first layer of the aquifer underneath the second soil layer.  Dig out the top soil layer, channel away the supports, and viola.

I'll do a little refinement and post a detailed description (probably tomorrow).

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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 19, 2013, 12:51:01 pm »
Lost three more forts tonight in service to the one-pick challenge.

The first time, I embarked to a biome with rain which instantly left those caught in it opposed to life.  Lost the entire fort in a single tick.

The second time, I reembarked to that same biome - mostly out of disbelief at what had just happened.  Sure enough, it happened again.  Never even found out if the biome was reanimating; it killed me before a single critter walked onto the map.

The third time, I picked a new site and managed to make it underground.  This one was a little nicer: only an annoying goblin-blood rain to deal with (well... in addition to the undead).  Managed to get a decent hidey-hole dug out, successfully slaughtered and disposed of the two pack-beasts so that I didn't starve while I leveled up my miner, dug out the preparation for my aquifer pierce, successfully penetrated the second layer as per Merendel's method, and then disaster.  Since I had used one wood for a barrel, I needed to deconstruct my entrance wall to make the bucket. 

About this time, I realized that, due to a lack of foresight (mostly, a panicked attempt to get underground as quickly as possible, thanks to the shock from my previous two attempts), I had neglected to build a safe entrance: there we stairs leading straight to the surface, so any surface undead could just walk right in.  I hurriedly ordered my miner to channel out the stairway, and the bloodied idiot decided he wanted to stand on the surface while he did so.  Catching the attention of everything within a ten mile radius.

I hurriedly conscripted the fort, fought off the nearest (just a couple of lamprey corpses), and ordered everyone back inside.  Whew, problem solved... I thought.  I set up some traffic restrictions to prevent a relapse, and ordered the dismantling of the stairway again - and watched in horror as my miner ran right back out onto the surface, because the idiot had dropped his fricking pick during the first fight.  Son of a... Argh!

I hurriedly reconscript everyone so I can go save him again, but no such luck this time.  He popped out onto the surface right underneath a flight of giant raven corpses.  Game over, the end.  Time to go again.

By the way, Merendel, now that I've had a chance to test it, your method is magic!  I think I might see a way to improve it, though, by omitting the cavein.  :)  I need to do some !!SCIENCE!!, but if I'm right I think it should be possible to manage a 100% safe pumpless pierce.

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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: DF2012 (v34.01+) Worldgen Cookbook Thread!
« on: September 19, 2013, 07:51:01 am »
Merendel, these are the settings I'm using for World Gen:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Results in a small world dominated by hot, low rainfall, high drainage terrifying biomes (so, lots of badlands).  After that, it's just a matter of searching for aquifer, very deep soil, no clay, and hoping for reanimating.

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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 19, 2013, 01:25:12 am »
That is a thing of beauty, Merendel.  Bravo.

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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 18, 2013, 03:09:19 pm »
Quote from: vanatteveldt on September 18, 2013, 08:26:47 am
I don't fully understand the need for a pump if you make tight circles and keep the miner on the inner ring but I guess I will find out in the first attempt that I don't botch.

Quote from: vanatteveldt on September 18, 2013, 02:31:12 pm
You need to pump it out, and you first need to channel out the whole inner portion except for two tiles support so the pump can outpump the water production.

Color me confused here.  The pump method I know, but I thought you were indicating that there was a way around that.  If you could drain the aquifer sans pump (somehow pierce the lower layer to let it drain downwards?) that would give a lot more leeway with regards to timing since you could use two of the wood for barrels to preserve food once you slaughter the pack beasts.  Otherwise, you end up racing to get rock pots in time for the first slaughter, and if you miss nearly all of the food goes to waste.  (This makes surviving the summer !!FUN!!.)

As far as pulling it off in a terrifying undead biome: so far, I'm about 2 for 11 on getting through the aquifer.  The first success took too long setting up a working food industry in the caverns and would have starved but for a hasty and ill-advised attempt to rescue the first migration wave which led to undead in my fortress.  The second pierce is going much better.  I'm into the second spring, and nearly have a stable fort.  Still having some food trouble (the last migration wave was larger than I had capacity to support), but I've got the metal industry going and the fortress is nearly self-sustaining.  Probably won't be able to get the next wave in, the surface is starting to get dangerous, so I'm likely sealed in for the foreseeable future.  Now its time to start worrying about socks.

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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 18, 2013, 01:51:13 pm »
Once you drop the outer ring, how do you drain the water from the inside so you can channel out the next layer?

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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 17, 2013, 08:10:46 pm »
I have two ideas for the pierce, revolving around a modified cavein plan, depending on what the second layer looks like.  If the second layer consists of a smoothable stone, then the idea is to cavein a 6x8 region and dig a double slit down from the second layer.  Otherwise, go with a concentric series of caveins.

I'll need to use my wood for a pump either way, which means I'm going to have to move quickly.  I'm trying to come up with a pumpless method, to let me use my wood for a food barrel and walls, but I don't think it's possible.

EDIT:
Quote from: Merendel on September 17, 2013, 08:06:49 pm
IF the aquifer was no more than 3 thick before a stone layer and there were no flying undead to contend with I could probably do the cavein drop method.  Any more than 3 thick however and you wont have the needed construction materials to bridge the gaps to make it work

With some work, I think it should be possible to manage a concentric cavein using natural floors.  The idea is to leave the inner rings supported by a central pillar, and to not channel out the square that will become the floor of the bridge.  Once you drop the outer ring, you'll need to pump out the aquifer as you mine underneath the inner rings, but this should be feasible for an arbitrarily large aquifer.

However, given that you'll need all your wood for a pump, the lack of food storage gives you a hard time limit of only a couple of months, so a 3+ layer aquifer is probably out of the question just based on dig time.

EDIT2:
Oh, forgot to mention: there's flying undead to contend with during all of this.  :)

The only saving grace of this biome - undead are not immune to the profane cloud.  They become profane husk corpses, which are still undead but now move very slowly.  This gives me time to run away when they come near.

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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 17, 2013, 01:31:37 pm »
Quote from: WanderingKid on September 17, 2013, 11:16:07 am
Red Sand desert with an aquifer.  Let me know if you can find an undead raising one, that could be fun too.  Be aware you're not going through the aquifer until you get a trade caravan in though, you will have nothing to make the walls from.  You CAN make a pump ( Build carp shop, make block, disassemble make from block, build pipe/corkscrew, disasssemble and get block back) but there's nothing to use to seal the sides of the double slit up with.

Found one that is truly nasty: rocky wasteland, zero plants/trees, very deep soil, multilayer aquifer, undead, plus a profane smoke that instantly turns into profane husks any creatures unfortunate enough to be caught in it.  I've lost three forts so far, and have yet to puncture the aquifer.  Whew!  This one is going to take work.

I think I can manage an aquifer pierce without waiting for the caravan, but it's risky.

15
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Single Pick Challenge - Reawakened
« on: September 17, 2013, 10:26:20 am »
Quote from: Patchy on September 17, 2013, 09:21:09 am
Rocky wastelands, badlands, and sand deserts all have a chance of being barren like a tundra and aren't frozen year round though they can have freezing periods. You can, however, still surface farm on them once you acquire some seeds from a caravan unlike a tundra. If you find all these biomes in a flat area, there will be no rocks for you to exploit above the aquifiers if present.

I think that by the time surface farming becomes an issue, the "one pick" nature of this challenge will have been mostly overcome; thus, the inability to freeze the aquifer presents a bigger challenge, I think.

I've managed to gen a world with a good selection of rocky wastelands, so I'm testing it out.  Just lost my first fort to a dumb mental error: used the three wood off of my cart to build a pump, intending to double-slit the aquifer, only to realize that the second aquifer layer was unsmoothable and I had no material with which to build walls.  D'oh!  That put me late on the timing for the pierce, and I had to butcher for food without a pot, barrel, or good hidey hole to stuff the corpses, leading to !!FUN!!.

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