Bay 12 Games Forum

This is just a general idea/challenge: I wonder if anyone would like to write some stories entirely from the personal viewpoint of you, yourself, if you were currently living in a Fortress.

Here are the rules: It's still you as you are right now, same personality, same likes and dislikes, same basic viewpoint, but "you" are now a dwarf, and have always been a dwarf, so it's not "human moves to the dwarf-mines day". You've got a beard you're really proud of (even if you're female, sorry!), you think that booze and swank dining rooms are right up there with gold on the big list of things that are better than sex, and you've got an unhealthy co-dependent relationship with your pick-axe.

Otherwise, it's all you.

The idea is to thing both "within the game" and "outside the box". What areas of life (besides poo, which we really don't want to hear about, sorry!) does the game currently cover, and what's happening behind the scenes? And how would a dwarf who was a whole lot like you, fit in to a Fortress?

What would you do if you lived underground, had access to arbitrarily limited technology and knowledge (you atleast start out at pre-1400AD, but I'll allow inventions and reasonably common chemical reactions discovered up to 1699AD, if written well. Anything past that time-frame flat out does not work, and will never work.), but had at your disposal endless imagination, creativity, and skill; in a world where gunpowder flat-out does not work (sorry!), but dragons do breathe fire, goblins know where you live, and both want to steal your precious, precious gold.

Also, there's magic in the world, obviously, and you might even tap into a tiny bit of it, yourself, but it would be a great challenge for any dwarf to become an effective wizard, if that's even possible. So, nothing there that couldn't currently occur in the game.

How would you live day-to-day? What are your forms of entertainment? Who are your friends, and why? What challenges and conflicts do you face, and can you overcome them?

Hopefully, this will be a good way to get our brains ticking.

If you want to write this in another thread, just point out where and I'll go look.

I'm currently working on a comprehensive mod that will attempt to reimagine the way Dwarf Fortress handles accumulation of resources, production and processing of materials, and finally, a complete rewrite of the entire economic framework, from the absolute bottom-to-top. And, frankly, it's a vast and exceedingly complex proposition, so any help (which will require actual time and work towards a common goal) would be highly appreciated.

The overarching goal here is to create a stable and sensible framework which captures every current item and aspect of the game that involves dwarfs gathering items, creating objects, trade, and money, so that when modders set out to change the game, they don't necessarily run in to the problem of wanting to rewrite what's already been done.

Smaller goals will involve:
Rewriting material/object Values, so that, for instance, easily gathered gold, platinum, rubies, etc. don't far exceed the value of other goods, without a significant amount of work and processing, while relatively common goods, such as alchohol, timber, clay, etc. have a "place to go" in the economic framework. So that a dilligent player can make a choice between creating many different, but basic, goods, or can seek to specialize, with many steps of rarification, until something as seemingly simple as cloth, taken to it's highest artistic potential, will begin to outweigh in value, the shiny rocks one can pluck from a cliffside in one's first Fortress year.

Creating a very large amount of variety in goods-creation, and many "technological paths", increasing player choice, and replayability. No more of maxing out of everything in the second Fortress year!

Doing what can be done towards making every Fortress an individual, and seeking to give a wide base of players as many options as possible to make their Fortress a place they/we want to return to, again and again, while still wanting to go back and make more Fortresses, "as the mood strikes", by again allowing many more choices.

Making choices matter--with a sharp eye towards A: giving players many more long-term goals, and B: a hope that our work will actually remove the ability to accomplish everything that can possibly be done in the game, in a reasonable time, with a single Fortress.

This will be a war against the game ever becoming boring, to a willing, avid player.

Finally, seeking to create a stronger and more complex framework for weapons and armour, and their production, by adding many steps, and many choices, so that it still becomes relatively easy to create a small but functional, and reasonably (if archaically) equipped, defensive army, but becomes very challenging to transform that small force into a large one, and/or give them the very best possible equipment, while at the same time cementing dwarf arms and armour as, potentially, the absolute best that can be had, with a side effect of giving other civilizations more room for individuality, specialization, and worthiness in their own right.

I've already got some of the work done, myself, and I'm very confident about how things should be organized, and what needs attention, but I'm also a slow worker, and there's just so much to be done. Since I figure this has some potential to help a significant amount of players, and modders, I thought it would be reasonable to ask for help, and see if anyone has the time and drive, and can find it in themselves to share the same goals.

Feel free to reply here, or PM me, if you're interested, have some modding experience (particularly materials and reactions), and really have the time and energy for this project. As of now, I warn, much of the work needed will be "busywork", but work that does require some thoughtfulness and atleast a modicum of skill.

Thank you!

This is a suggestion inspired by this question/answer session between ToadyOne and Neonivek:


Warning: Wall of Text.

In reply to this: In Worldgen, each Megabeast should be assigned a "lair", located in an environment/biome that suited it.

This Lair would be a very simple, 3x3x3 cavern area, programmed to form entirely inside of stone, atleast 3 Z levels below the surface in all places, and also programmed to have a single, accessible "cave" entrance, leading either to the surface, or to the nearest cavern, body of water, or other such open space.

A very small, very simple, but unclosed cave, in other words. 

This would be placed outside of normal worldbuilding, once the World had taken it's shape, but before Events occurred.

This would keep Megabeasts from listlessly wandering the countryside, without requiring heavy AI programming, and eliminate an immediate vulnerability to being "rushed". 

Megabeasts would exist in a hybernating state, until contacted (by physically coming within 1 Z level of their Lair, in any direction) by a being with the ability to learn skills (anything smarter than an animal).

This could happen in WorldGen (as simple as random number generation), in which case, that megabeast would have an impact on history, as normal.

Otherwise, the Megabeast would remain "hybernating" until the time of the game.

If any part of this cave "home" touched a pre-existing cavern, the Megabeast would instead be located, awake, on the nearest immediate floor of that cavern system. Being awake in the closed environment of a cavern should reduce or eliminate the same dangers that being awake on the surface might otherwise cause.

To ensure their survival, Megabeasts would not ever be required to eat or drink or breathe fresh air. All Megabeasts would be given the ability to swim, and all could survive indefinitely underwater, even if that wasn't their "natural environment".

Megabeasts who's homes happened to touch magma at any point, would instead appear awake, on the surface immediately above, at the closest magma free area available. This would allow a few Megabeasts to occasionally awaken during Worldgen, without sentient contact ("a volcano woke them up").

Hybernating megabeasts who's homes were flooded by magma during actual gameplay, would also reappear, unharmed and awake, at a nearby but random magma-free surface area. This would keep them from being exterminated by "flooding the world" with magma, or chance volcanoes, or other events, before giving them a chance to wreak havok.

Dragons, bronze colossi, and other Megabeasts with special relationships with fire, may very well be immune to magma, anyway, but could still be awoken in this manner.

Any damage done to a hybernating Megabeast would cause exactly the same thing to occur--It would reappear, awake and angry, but completely unharmed, on a random nearby surface area.

It would be therefore impossible, as a game mechanic, to kill a hybernating Megabeast, without first waking it up.

Contacting it, without causing it any damage, would cause the Megabeast to wake up, but not to randomly shift location. Sentient creatures brave enough to approach, would still be inclined to attack it, however, even if you really didn't want them to.

These means would help to eliminate the more obvious means of safely getting rid of sleeping megabeasts the player had managed to locate. 

Once two or more of the same Megabeast (regardless of sex) were "awake", at any point in the game, the awake ones could then breed as a normal breeding population, provided that active population included both males and females.

Hybernating Megabeasts would not count towards the breeding population.

The requirement of only active Megabeasts of that type in the world breeding, would go a long way towards keeping numbers down, while allowing a more natural life cycle to occur, and help to keep Megabeasts from all going extinct.

In addition, for every Megabeast killed during Worldgen, there would be a 5% chance that a hybernating Megabeast, of that type (if any still exist), would become a hybernating "Breeding Mother".

That megabeast would become a female, regardless of original sex, and immedately begin laying eggs/having hatchlings, etc., while still hybernating.

These eggs, or maybe hatchlings (depending on the species of Megabeast?), would also be "hybernating". The eggs/hatchlings would not begin aging, until/unless woken up by the same means as the Mother.

Breeding Mothers would awaken by exactly the same means as other hybernating Megabeasts. Hatchlings would only awaken if physically damaged, or by contact by a sentient being, or by magma.

Unlike all other Megabeasts, Breeding Mother Hatchlings (only) could be damaged/killed, or even possibly stolen (eggs), without waking the Mother, but this should carry with it an extreme risk of waking the whole "nursery", including the Mother, at the same time.

The appearance of Megabeast "Mothers" would be a special event that would have to occur during Worldgen, and would only be caused (and rarely so) by the death of another Megabeast. No new sleeping "Mothers" would be created after Worldgen was over.

That would give the rare possibility of stumbling upon a much larger problem than even the single Megabeast you were prepairing for, while allowing some Megabeast "eggs" to exist in the world.

Birthrate would remain low.

If a Bronze Colossus ever became a "Mother", it would instead cause additional hybernating Bronze Colossi to appear in the same Lair.

This would normally be 1 additional Colossus, but it could maybe become a mod tag for "Megabeast--does not breed", that allowed you to set random number parameters, allowing players to instead stumble upon a collection of several unliving Megabeasts, rather than a nest of living, breeding ones

In that way, there would always be the possibility of running across more Bronze Colossi, and similar Megabeasts, than the player could count on appearing in the game.

Megabeasts--any of the types we have now--would never appear in the Ocean (within any Ocean or similar biome), but may appear in small bodies of water/murky pools.

If ToadyOne wants to add ocean biome Megabeasts, these may have/requre different features. This Thread isn't about them, and doesn't deal with them, or attempt to figure out how they might work.

Megabeasts who appear in bodies of water, and who's Lairs would be completely submerged in water in all directions, would instead appear awake, on the floor of that body of water, at the time of gameplay. That would give you occasional "lake monsters", emerging to interact with the world, in a similar manner to those "awoken by volcanoes".

The ones appearing in lakes would only awaken/become active, at the time of the game, itself, unlike the ones who's lairs happened to touch magma.

They would hybernate throughout Worldgen/Events, as normal, unless awoken--which should be a fairly rare event, since they'd be hybernating on the bottom of a lake or murky pool.

That would help to increase the chances of having a handful of active Megabeasts, somewhere in the world, at the time of the start of the game.

Hybernating Megabeasts could still be worshipped, as normal, and this worship might give a clever player some clues to the Megabeast's whereabouts.

This is a suggestion about the nature of the world generated: There has been some talk about the world, what shape it is, astronomical data, etc. and that's all good and ultimately should prove to be of some importance and interest, but considering the nature of the game, namely a Fantasy, I believe there should be limits on how well the world, as an overall body, is ever defined to the Player, in the course of the game.

In other words, there should be an "edge" of the map, beyond which are lands, peoples, etc. that we simply will never know the whole story about. And the mystery of them may lead to additional interest and Fun.

This could be handled in a few different ways. For one, the lands "beyond the edge" may simply be functionally limitless, infinite as far as we're concerned. Considering the amount of space on the map we currently get, and the impact infinite space may have on the end-game (a reduce in the rate of megabeasts, etc. but never a total lack of anything, including challenges), that may be a really good thing. It might even help processors cope with long games, since instead of reiterating a constantly more complex world, most things out of range of your Fortress could simply be generated randomly/semi-randomly, without requiring the use of a truly "small world"--a thing that some of us just don't find to be satisfactory.

Another way (I'm calling it the "Moorcock Solution", since it's somewhat inspired by Michael Moorcock's Eternal Warrior series, although it's a general idea, and not something inherant to the series, or infringing on copyright to use) may be to suppose that the mapped, defined, "known world" is an outgrowth from raw chaos, and that, as more and more of the world comes to be charted, it simply expands.

This is undoubtedly a more complex solution, but quite possibly balanced by it's usefulness and interest-factor. In this model, a small iota of the World exists at the beginning of the game, with a vast realm of potentiality surrounding it. As the game continues, the World itself expands, forming "out of the chaos-stuff".

This, I believe, would be very helpful for the newcomer, since only a small area of the world is of any importance, at the start of the game. As the game grows older and bigger, more and more areas become defined, and the scope of the game grows appropriately more complex. The end-game isn't sacrificed, because (in the timeline of the game, anyway, neatly dovetailing with the "pre-1400's" technology present in the game), the "chaos-realm" can never completely be overcome, leading into an end-game where the "infinite world" idea is still retained, but allowing for a large, charted area, which would give Players the "best of both worlds", literally.

This again may save processing speed, since our computers would only need to manage a world, the size of which would grow slowly and probably steadily. When it seems that a limit has been reached on any given computer's abilities, an "offswitch" could simply be thrown, halting the generation of new lands. This could both be performed in the middle of a game by the player, and also set in the Predefines.

Now, by "generation of new lands", that isn't meant to mean unpopulated, undeveloped lands. These "new lands" would arrive fully fleshed out, with their own histories, populations, leaders and legends. In a large sense, it would be the computer generating the World, more and more of it, as you played. This could perhaps even be performed while the player slept, worked, what have you, and while the extant world was on Pause.

Again, this should help a lot with processing speed, since in the beginning of the game, only a very small "world" would have to be generated. At the same time, players wanting a very large world, would get their wish, in a timely fashion, when that greater amount of geography actually has some usefulness.

This would be a bit like the "fog of war" concept, but in my opinion a lot more interesting, since the map itself and what it contains would never be in a complete, fixed state, even through saved games and the like. With the randomness to be instigated into creatures, in the coming installment, what shows up on the map could prove to be surprising and exciting indeed.

This should do something towards adding to the interest and replayability of the game itself, since a given game, and the player's way of dealing with it, may grow and change through quite a few incarnations, based simply on the changing face of the surrounding world.

The "new lands" concept could even interact in a somewhat direct manner with the Player.

Playing style may affect it--a player that sends out a lot of expeditions, a lot of merchants, a lot of armies; may cause the world to "grow" at a faster rate. A Fortress that hasn't made any steel, or sand, or what have you, may cause the game to generate an area with the necessary ingredients for those items, perhaps in the hands of an enemy. The game, infact, may generate enemies, or allies, or neutral parties, depending on how you're playing the game, and how successfully.

Spheres (whatever they are) may, somehow, grow in influence based on player action/inaction, and cause the generation of related lands--or they may actually act to balance themselves out.

There could even be pre-generated areas that the computer could place, and which would then show up randomly on the map, as it's explored. These could be player-designed, safely, with the knowledge that you'd never quite know the time/place/circumstances of the placement.

These defined areas could be chosen from a large list, and added--or not added--to any number of maps, increasing replayability. There could maybe be a Community created/maintained database of predefined areas that the computer could choose from.


Finally, either way, the "edge of the map" itself could be very useful and interesting. You might send out explorers, adventurers, expeditions, even whole armies, into the Unknown, in the hope that they might return with all manner of fantastical items, trade alliances, captives, beasts, materials, stories, what have you.

Anything might be out there. After all--it's the edge of the map.

If it were up to me, I'd give the ability to tag children (yes, children) as either military or civilian.

I know it's an extreme viewpoint, but this isn't something that anyone would force you to do. It would be a choice to make, with benefits, and sometimes strong temptations, but also with serious penalties.

Now that doesn't mean the children themselves would ever have to fight. Children would still do whatever they wanted. It simply means that you'd choose which broad area the child would be groomed for, once that child reaches adulthood.

I don't understand why Urist McSoldier should have an unhappy thought about mining for a living, or about being a soldier instead of a miner. Both are highly dangerous trades, and these are dwarfs, living on the frontier. If they aren't atleast willing to grit their teeth and occasionally fight for survival, they shouldn't have left the Mountainhome.

And they (the relatively rational ones, anyway, and primarily the ones that show up before you get a working economy) should have some sense of that.

What I *do* understand is that, from the point of the middle ages back, with Sparta being a well-known starting point, it was fairly typical for there to be a military elite that would be holistically trained in the deadly arts (including various social skills, making that portion of the game suddenly make a little bit of sense), basically from birth.

As uncomfortable as it may make some of us, it's what happened, and it makes sense in terms of the nature of the game. By "tagging" such children for the military (or "warrior caste", whatever you want to call it), you'd both benefit from their lifelong training, and be handicapped by the economic and social burdens that come with them.

In a sense, they'd all be Nobles. They'd have special needs and elite social status, as well as military status. You'd have to plan for that, and also plan for years of training (they might even take years longer simply to reach "adulthood" than your civilian children, representing more closely an active apprentice-program), along with all the maintenance such a warrior caste would require.

Switching those warrior caste dwarfs over to permanent civilian status, or possibly giving a civilian identical status and rights, depending on the particular societal structure in place, could (and should) cause immense social upheaval, starting with unhappy thoughts and quite possibly ending with rebellion, or even a military coup.

Think "The Last Samurai".

Just a quick little suggestion that there be hot drinks in the game, like hot cider, tea, cocoa, coffee, milled wine, etc. Dwarfs could fill their mugs with them (whenever that happens), causing the mugs to go hot--at different rates, dependent on the material they were made out of--warming cold dwarfs' hands.

A dwarf on a break might get a hot drink just because her hands were cold. The drink itself would be secondary.

Dwarfs might have a favorite mug, not unlike a pet, but inanimate.

Some dwarfs might prefer the same beverage to be hot, while others like it cold (iced coffee), depending on their personality.

Hot dwarfs might press a cold beverage to their foreheads.

Wisps of steam might come off the hot mugs, while cold mugs might percipitate, moistening the hands holding them.

Dwarfs might become addicted to caffeinated products, needing them to get through their working day (I know I do!).

An overanxious dwarf could burn his mouth slightly, swallowing a hot drink, while a more patient one has learned to wait, and sip.

Cooking alchohol long enough and hot enough would render all the alchohol out of it.

Throwing a hot drink could cause mild burns.

A moody dwarf might throw a cold drink at a dwarf she dislikes, choosing not to harm physically, but causing humiliation in a more socially accepted way. Getting splashed by a cold drink could cause an unhappy thought.


I know it's not a huge suggestion, but I think everything here could eventually be done in DF (probably some of it is already planned), and it would be remarkable to see something this small, yet this complex, going on in the game.

It's a very recogniseable theme in many heroic-style fantasies-bad ones in particular-to have elaborate, often oversized and unrealistically flanged/spiked/studded/bladed weapons, often with crazy-to-the-point-of-laughable modifications.

This isn't that.

But, it does give a nod to the historical idea that before industrialization, each weapon was forged individually, and often quite uniquely, incorporating both the abilities and style of the smith, and the desires of the customer-warrior.

This thread is kind of meant to go along with my 'New Weapons Based on Skill' thread, and is a suggestion that it be possible for our dwarfs to forge non-standardized "customized" weapons, that may have additional spikes or hooks, that are heavier or longer than average (in order to accommodate larger and stronger fighters), etc.

The way this could work is that you could order your dwarf to create a weapon of a given type (shortsword, spear, battleaxe, whatever), and then be able to customize it, which would require more time on the part of your smith, and maybe some extra resources, as well, but allowing you to "build" a personalized weapon, with additional or different features.

Some customizing examples include:
Adding different types of hilts to a sword, such as adding a basket hilt, a double-hilt, or a weaponized pommel (made heavier, or with a skull-cracking spike),
"Serrating" the blade of a sword or knife, to create more ragged, harder to heal wounds--makes sharpening the blade a lot more difficult, though,
Adding a hook, or a hammer, or even an additional blade, to the "back" of a battleaxe, to give it a double bit, or the ability to pierce armour,
"Bearding" the blade of a battleaxe, to give it a larger cutting surface,
Adding a spike or two to the center of a battleaxe blade, to give the blade better armour-piercing capabilities, and to create more vicious wounds,
Adding a spike to the butt of a spear, or reinforcing the spear's shaft, or adding some "horns" to the top of the shaft, to prevent impaled enemies from climbing up the shaft to attack you,
Adding the same to the blade of a 2-handed sword, for the same reason,
Adding a third blade to a spearhead, making it triangular in cross-section, and both reinforcing the head, and giving it better piercing ability, while reducing it's cutting power,
Adding barbs to the head or shaft of a spear, turning it into a harpoon,
Adding spikes or flanges or blades or studs to the head of a mace,
Making a mace heavier by giving it a core of lead,
"Weaponizing" the butt of a crossbow, with a metal cap,
Cutting 1-3 bloodgrooves into the blade of a sword or a knife, in order to reduce the weight,
Adding a parallel spike to the haft of a battleaxe, so that it has some stabbing ability (can be done in tandem with adding a spike, hammer, blade, etc. to the "back" of the axe),
Attaching flanges to either side of a spearhead, making it more like a trident or a ranseur/spetum/spontoon,
Filing "cletes" into the head of a warhammer (so that it looks like a meat-tenderizer), improving it's armour-destroying capability,
Giving a sword or axe an "ergonomic curve", so that it's better designed to follow, and work with, the shape of the wielder's arm (as in the yataghan, and certain battleaxes),
Reinforcing the shaft of an axe, or mace, with metal strips+studs, to help keep it from breaking,
Adding a rope or leather strap to the butt of a axe/mace/hammer, to wrap around the wielder's wrist, and keep the weapon from easily being disarmed,
Making the handle/haft/shaft of a weapon out of solid metal, making it much more difficult to break the weapon's handle, but increasing the overall weight,
Making the weapon longer or shorter, heavier or lighter, in order to "fit" it to the intended wielder, improving the balance, as well as speed (if lighter and shorter), or damage (if heavier and longer), but significantly increasing both the time and the cost.

Gems and other decorations could still be added, ofcourse, and customized weapons might have an improved value, based on the extra time, materials, and effort put into the item.

Certain improvements-like certain types of weapons-might require the improved skills of a more experienced and talented smith.

I think this would go along well with the new way that bodies will be put together (if bodies are going to be made out of many different, separate parts that still all manage to relate to each other, and form a system, why not apply the similar principles to the weapons that are designed to injure and kill those bodies?), in the coming update, and could perhaps better harness the more complex materials attributes and wound system we're getting.