Bay 12 Games Forum

With the beards thread etc, there seems to be an interest in discussing how we all perceive of dwarves. So I researched a bit what the popular conception of them is and have been in various times and settings.

Images speak more than words. Actually, they don't speak at all, unless you hear voices in you head, and then you need consultation, but whatever. Here are images of typical conceptions of Dwarves. Do you share these, or do you have your own image in mind?


Proportions
These are the proportions most of us have in mind when conceptualising Dwarves. These are notably shorter than the size 6 (vs the Human size 7) that are in the raws:


Modern take on Norse Mythology
In Norse mythology, Dwarves inhabit Niđavellir, the 5th world of the nine, where they forge rare metals, among others for the Aesir. Here is a Norse dwarf (from Warhammer, and a reference figure of a Valkyrie-ish shield maiden to set the ambience it goes with). This is probably the image most historically and mythologically inclined people have of dwarves (I will call this the "classical" dwarf form).


Reference shots of aesthetics and culture generally associated with Norse Scandinavian/Germanic dwarves:


18th and 19th Centuries images of Norse dwarves
The above images are however modern "refinements" of a romantic conception of Teutonic/Germanic/Norse mythology in the vein of Wagner and others. This 1895 illustration of a book of Norse Edda may be more representative of the 18th and 19th centuries' images of the race:



Dwarves in Scandinavian Folklore
Dwarves as conceived in Scandinavian and German folklore tend more to what in RPG parlour would be recognised as gnomes or halflings, or even gremlins (and in fact are the origin of the modern image of Santa Claus), and actually differ in image from that of Norse mythology, even though occupying the same regions and times. John Bauer is an 19th century Swedish artist that has made many images of Scandinavian dwarves/gnomes and trolls:


And an image by Brian Froud and Alan Lee:



Dwarves in AD&D
These are Dwarves as typically represented in AD&D media. Note the anthropomorphising almost-preformationistic representation. Dwarves are short stocky humans with braided beards and a penchant for axes and hammers. The females can be considered attractive by human standards.




Dwarves in Tolkien
Basically, these conform to Norse dwarves but inhabiting the same world as the other races. Their community also bears more resemblance to Teutonic romanticism á la Beowolf (as do some other societies in Middle-Earth, the Rohirrim and Gondor f.i.). The known illustrators generally also borrow that stereotype, for instance John Howe's depictation of Gimli and Legolas at the walls or Horn's Keep and a profile study of GImli:


Anopthe Alan Lee image, of Thorin at the Lonely Mountain, a study of Gimli, and Thorin laid to rest. Note that Lee perceives of Dwarves as smaller humans:



Dwarfs in Warhammer
Spelled with an "f", in typical Warhammer style, Games Workshop transforms the stereotype into a caricature, then latches on to a few characteristics and inflates them beyond all reason, which creates a very distinctive conception. Warhammer dwarFs are divided into specialised roles (Trollslayers, Ironbreakers) and allegiances (vanilla and Chaos), creating a complex mythos. The different types have very distinctive styles, but are all generally more Gothic than the classical (Germanic/Teutonic) representation. Images of Troll Slayer, Ironbreakers from Warhammer Online, a Rune Smith figurine, and a heap of 'em.
.

Battle scene with several types of dwarfs:

Bonus image not in typical Warhammer style (more Celtic), but a damn spiffy picture:

Chaos dwarfs, for some reason, are heavily inspired by medieval Russian art styles, only with extra skulls everywhere.


Mainstream "eclectic" adoptations
Another dwarf figurine, this one clearly influenced by the classical form, yet adjusted to go well with the streamlines vanilla-RPG mainstream fantasy style:


A dwarf with exaggerated "viking" attributes and parodical emphasis of belly:

A dwarf in style apparently inspired by US cartoon art, with attributes emphasised and exaggerated beyond practical use in typical style for present (first decade of the 21th century) fantasy art (it menaces with spikes):


Some interesting resources
For the entire cliché, here is a typical AD&D adventurer party, showing off the stereotypes and "roles" quite well:

Here's a blog post somewhere about the development of Dwarves in computer games:
http://chaosmoon.gameriot.com/blogs/WAAAGH/Dwarfs-Are-Cool-Since-When

Comparative blog post about dwarves and other mythological creatures in Scandinavian folklore:
http://users.skynet.be/fa023784/trollmoon/TrollBlog/files/category-6.html

I think a dwarf that died with unhappy thoughts (or mad!) should have a chance to rise again as an undead or spirit. Perhaps a dwarf that died happy might be a beneficial spirit, but it is easier to envisage the reason for and consequences of unhappy (or MAD!) living dead/spirits.

Also, if the dead dwarf was not fully pissed enough to go berserk in his unlife he should go around spreading unhappy thoughts (and miasma), especially amogn relatives and friends. And the (re-)killing of him should also cause negative thoughts.

If he IS pissed enough to seek plentiful vengeance then he should spread death and destructing in addition to the unhappiness of above

The (this) suggestions forum is extremely intense and busy. We have hundreds of pages of threads, and thousands of individual threads. It is very difficult to keep track of what's being said where and by whom.

I don't know if it can be added to SMF but I'd like to see that each new thread started in the suggestions forum must select a category to which it belongs (or an "other" alternative and fill in a textbox with the custom tag).

The list box of categories could contain frequent topics like

* Magic
* Combat
* Zoning
* Technology
* Buildings
* World generation
* Interface
(* Meta)

This is basically to help us organise and structure threads, and find them more easily. The thread list might then look something like this:

[Magic] Creating a magic system                   UristMcPotter
[Combat] More detailed wresting interface         UristMcSlippery
[World generation] More megabeasts!               UristMcMasochist
[Magic] Runes or AD&D?                            UristMcRaistlin
[Meta] Roundup of all weapons threads             UristMcAdmin

I think this would greatly improve the suggestions forum by instilling a structure and facilitating finding existing or particular threads.

When playing a game it is always gratifying being able to upgrade what you have. The only warfare companions we have at the moment are dogs, which can be trained to wardogs or hunting dogs.

First I'd like to see them gain experience and deadliness with time, as the dwarves do. Also, perhaps a beastmaster (animal trainer) could continue to work on them to help them improve. As it is now warhounds are basically cheap cannon fodder.

Also, I would like that with time you should be able to capture and tame the younglets of certain animals (great cats, acid armadillos, the Great Eagletross, imp salamanders, perhaps even drakes) and use, even breed, similar to hounds.

Just as we deignate corridors withing a Z-level we should be able to designate shafts between them, auto-filled with staircases.

Many threads deal with pet peeves or small, even trivial issues, or with expansion requests. I am personally of the opinion that DF atm is a potentially fantastic game, but that some major issues render it sometimes more painful than fun. These large, critical things is what I hope we can collect in this thread.

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Stones
I'll start with Stones, which was recently brought up again, and discussed in length earlier (and many times before that), I go as far as to say stones is perhaps THE gameplay problem atm. It causes logistical problems (area clearing, order of lugging, merchandise priority), which frustrates gameplay and distrupts the intended game flow. I have in fact dropped the game in waiting for an elegant solution to stone handling.

The most common suggestions arm seems to be explicitly zoning stones for lugging, designating stones for destruction, or, wnen digging, making a distinction between excavation and mining.

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Army coordination
Face it: managing your military dwarf isn't fun. They are stupider than a necked chicken after eaten.

* Military, especially leaders, sleeping when besieged or attacked
* Uncoordinated squads, units acting (getting slaughtered) individually

The most common (partial?) solution to this is a "state of emergency" (auto-set during sieges?) putting the military on alert.

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Civilians during sieges
Well, perhaps even more stupid than military dwarves are civilians when ordered to stay indoors. This of course leads them to either stand in the door so it can't be closed, or stand between your military and the attackers. Thank you, Mr Longshanks Smartdwarf.

The best solution I have found to this in the threads is to designate "military only" (forbidden to civilians) and/or "safe" (mandatory retreats for civilians) zones that take effect when in a state of emergency.

[ March 17, 2008: Message edited by: Mikademus ]

I'm thinking that forts can be classified into a number of types depending on their focus on a number of scales. Say a fort that imports and/or exports a lot scores high on 'trading', a fort that produces much craft is high in 'crafting', a fort with schools, universities etc is high in 'culture', a fort with much precius metals would be known as a 'gold rush' place, and a military dominated fort screams 'THIS IS SPARTMORIA'!

This should affect the types and levels of immigrants coming to the fort. If I were a reputable philosopher or magician I would likely not seek a militant fort. On the other hand, if I were an accomplished miner I would want a rich fort.

Similarly, the amount of booze produced and traded should increase the attractiveness of a fort. All sane dwarves prefer the land where beer and honey flows free.

If a particular profession is needed, a warrant could be put up. With a stipend and good quarters promised the sought-after specialist might turn up.