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DF Suggestions / Return of the Guild Masters
« on: August 28, 2008, 04:54:34 pm »The purpose of this thread is to clarify, discuss, and flesh out the suggestion to bring back the old Guild Masters and Military Orders to fulfill many of the requests for added special abilities and management controls. The Rough draft was originally posted in this thread: Council of Nobles.
Please, as a courtesy to me and others interested in this topic, read the thread, and any important links in it before attempting to change the course of discussion. For those new to the game, the information concerning the original Guild Masters can be found here on the old 2D wiki. You can read about their job mandates here. The current job groupings in the game are found here.
What Exactly a Guild Is:
- A Guild in Dwarf Fortress is a collection of skilled dwarves that have come together to form a social and economic unit.
- These Guilds (or Houses) are organized on the local (Fortress), Kingdom, and World (All of Dwarfdom) levels.
- Most established fortresses contain chapters of at least one guild. The larger cities and capitols contain major guildhalls for all guilds present in the Kingdom. The Guilds cooperate across multiple Kingdoms to preserve the lore of their trades, as well as to promote the interests of their members.
- Guilds are organized around similar skill sets, most recognizable by a player as the color of the dwarf (White for Masons, Yellow for Carpenters).
- Guilds have three names really. We, the players, refer to the Engineers Guild for simplicity. The Dwarves refer to this type of guild as House Olon (Gear in the dwarven tongue), but each such guild also has a unique random name, generated during WorldGen.
- In a Fortress, a Guild is most clearly manifested by the existence of a dedicated noble, the Guild Master. When a Guild Forms in your fortress, the members will choose one amongst themselves to fill this role.
Why you would want more nobles:
- Many players already have difficulty handling the present nobles. But many of the nobles provide special features that help the fortress survive. The Broker makes trade far easier: you get better deals, know how much something is worth etc. The Mayor handles many complaints, giving disgruntled dwarves a place to vent and get a happy thought.
- Many players are also requesting new features like prospecting, automatic queuing of jobs, control over resources and workshops, relocating of tombs, safer sparring, and others in order to help manage a growing fort.
- Game Balance is a difficult issue, and one of the most direct ways to control this is by providing negative effects to balance any new positive ability.
What Guild Masters do:
- Everything they used to do. That is, that like the broker, mayor, manager and record keeper the player has complete control over their labor settings.
- Some Guild Masters will gain extra labors made possible by the organization. (ie Prospecting for the Miners Guild).
- Some Guild Masters will have additional settings (like the record keeper) on the Nobles Screen.
- Many Guilds involve additional controls or jobs queuing. To maintain these abilities, the Guild Master must work in his/her office.
- Guild Masters will assist in the training of guild members.
- All Guild Masters will start having meetings:
- With Guild Members to hear complaints much like the Mayor currently does.
- With the Mayor to petition for job mandates and/or wage increases.
- (Optionally) With a Guild Representative to discuss Guild Business.
- When a "job mandate" is not completed, instead of resulting in a beating or jail time for a member, the GM will call a strike: All members will ignore jobs relating to the guild until such time as the strike ends in a few weeks. All members immediately get a bad thought. The GM will also revoke any benefits they provide. Non-members can still be changed over to the labors so that work will continue, but this will be inferior and (Toady willing) result is bad feelings and maybe violence.
- They alter the pattern of immigration. Small Guilds will attract more immigrants of that professional type, which may or may not already be members of the Guild. Large Guilds start attracting specialists from other Guild chapters, with a single guild skill at "Skilled" level.
- If your Guild is short of a highly skilled dwarf, perhaps the Guildmaster can import a specialist from another guild chapter.
- Workshops can be set to "Guild Only" under Workshop Preferences.
- It has been suggested that the integration of Dwarf Foreman could be linked to Guilds. Having a guild would allow you control over member's labors en masse, as well as to set labors based on skill ("only Proficient or above engravers have engraving on until I say otherwise").
What Guilds Can Form and Their Benefits: The following is a list of suggestions, and not all could, or should be implemented.
(See also Appendix A: Suggested Changes to Guild Skills)
- The Miners Guild - House Tekkud (Pick)
Governs the professions of Miner- The GM gains a new labor, Prospecting.
- The GMs settings screen gives you access to the mineral log, a zoom-to list of all the strikes you've made.
- On the same screen you can set each ore type to be automatically designated for mining.
- One suggestion is a designate option to only mine ore, gems, or a specific stone type.
- The Woodworkers Guild - House Lolum (Wood)
Governs the professions of Bowyer, Carpenter, Woodcutter and Wood Worker- Carpenter's and Bowyer's shops can specify which type of wood to use.
- Under the GMs settings (Nobles screen) there is an option to override tree cutting designations that would cause the fortress to violate an agreement with the elves.
- Also under the GM settings, a minimum level of wood can be set. Any repeat jobs trying to break this minimum will automatically be canceled.
- The Guild Master can plant a few Tower Caps to start a cave forest.
- The Stoneworkers Guild - House Lam (Stone)
Governs the professions of Engraver, Mason and Stoneworker- The Stones screen gains a MASON selection.
- The Manager's work cue can now select specific stone types. IE: MAKE OBSIDIAN TABLES (10).
- The Animal Handlers Guild- House Fer (Beast)
Governs the professions of Ambusher, Animal Caretaker, Animal Trainer, Animal Dissecter, Trapper and Ranger.- You can set max populations of a given animal type. Excess are butchered.
- Pets can be slaughtered, but with very bad thoughts.
- The GM could absorb or mimic the Dungeon Masters ability to tame anything.
- The GM could authorize the trade of rare land animals.
- The GM, if a hunter, could organize the hunters into a squad for safer hunting.
- The Smiths Guild - House Zuntir (Anvil)
Governs the professions of Furnace Operating, Armorsmith, Metal Crafter, Blacksmith, Weapon Smith and Metal Smith.- When items are designated to melt, the GM will auto-cue the furnaces.
- Set minimums for all bar types. Repeat jobs that attempt to break this minimum get canceled.
- Forges will recognize items designated for decoration
- Forges can be set and labeled to only perform certain functions (armor, weapons, stud, furniture, etc). The Manager would respect such limitations.
- The Jewelers Guild - House Istrath (Jewel)
Governs the professions of Gem Cutter, Gem Setter and Jeweler.- The GM could have a slight chance of extracting a gem from an unmined gem deposit, without depleting it. - OR -
- The GM would have a slight chance of getting more than one cut gem from a rough one.
- Jeweler's Workshops would recognize items designated for decoration.
- The Craftsdwarves Guild - House Rigoth (Craft)
Governs the professions of Bone Carver, Clothier, Glass Maker, Leather Worker, Stone Crafter. Wood Crafter, Weaver, Strand Extractor, and Craftdwarf.- Adds a CRAFT selection to the Stones menu.
- Specific Materials/Types can be chosen in Manager's Orders. IE:MAKE ASH PICCOLO(10) or MAKE TALC RING(5)
- Craft, Cloth, and Leather Workshops recognize items designated for decoration
- Workshops could be set and labeled to only work with certain materials (Rock, Bone, Shell, etc). The Manager would respect such limitations.
- The Fishworkers Guild - House Tatlosh (Fish)
Governs the professions of Fish Cleaner, Fish Dissector, Fisherdwarf and Fishery Worker.- The GM Auto-cues Fish cleaning Jobs
- The GM could organize and regulate fishing in order to prevent depleting the waters.
- The GM could authorize the trade of rare water animals.
- The Farmers Guild - House Ber (Earth)
Governs the professions of Brewer, Butcher, Cheese Maker, Cook, Dyer, Grower, Herbalist, Lye Maker, Milker, Miller, Potash Maker, Soaper, Tanner, Thresher, Wood Burner and Farmer.- On the GMs settings you can set reserve seeds for planting.
- On the same screen, you can set some conditional settings, IE Mill Sweet Pods over 50, Process (to bag) all Quarry Pods, or Cook all Blunt Tubers over 30.
- The Kitchen Screen gains new controls for EAT and MILL
- The Engineers Guild - House Olon (Gear)
Governs the professions of Mechanic, Pump Operator, Siege Engineer, Siege Operator and Engineer.- Adds a MECHANICS tab to the Stones screen.
- Can make metal mechanisms at the forge
- Could have a new labor "tune mechanism". Upon completely such a labor on a mechanism or siege engine, the item in question would work faster or for less power.
- The Undertakers Guild - House Rash (Death) Should Probably be Replaced by a Religious Suggestion, like this one.
Historically this is an odd guild; it triggers when you have enough dead (20+). Since no skill is involved it will have to have unique criteria. I'd like to keep it in for nostalgia.- On the GM's settings (or as a subsection of the Unit's List) there is a list of all the dead dwarves' and pets' remains (and possibly enemies/wild animals that still exist). From this list you can zoom to the fallen's location.
- Assign tombs to already dead dwarves. Remains will be moved.
- The GM will conduct a funeral service giving all attendees (those that liked or really hated the deceased) a happy thought.
- On the GM's settings (or as a subsection of the Unit's List) there is a list of all the dead dwarves' and pets' remains (and possibly enemies/wild animals that still exist). From this list you can zoom to the fallen's location.
- The Military Orders - Order of the Ax, Sword, Spear, Mace, Hammer or Crossbow - varied
- The GM serves as an instructor, improving skill gain and reducing training injury.
- One requested feature (albeit for the CotG) was for a detailed breakdown of troop readiness (if we are short of armor or weapons, how many are wounded etc)
What Guild Masters and Guilds Require:
- General Requirements: Rather than fill this thread with a list of "needs X quality bathroom", it is safe to assume Toady can handle that aspect. Needless to say they will require bedrooms, offices, dining rooms, and/or tombs. The original GMs requirements can be found on this table. Below are unique and specific requirements.
- Staged Requirements: A really good suggestion was that the GMs requirements would be staged to improve as the Guild grows. When it first forms, the GM might only need a meager office for example, but need a fine office when the guild gets larger.
- House of Rash (The Dead): This nobles obsession with death and the afterlife requires an extensive tomb, much better than its living arrangements. This Noble could also require a bed, table, chair etc in their tomb. If Toady wants to avoid making the code for such a specific requirement, instead the House Rash Master could frequently demand such objects in their tomb like current nobles do for all their rooms.
- Military Orders: These nobles would need a dedicated barracks (or an archery target for the Order of the Bow) in which to conduct their training. The Guildmaster does not need to actually spar to confer its bonuses.
How Guild Halls Work:
- Guilds have their own private designated meeting area, where they socialize amongst themselves when idle or on break.
- A very new and small Guild will be content using its Guild Master's office as meeting area.
- As the Guild grows however, it will need a dedicated Guild Hall. Failure to provide one will result in unhappy thoughts to all members, and could lead to a strike.
- Guild Halls, when possible, are designated off of Guild related buildings, such as:
- The Stoneworkers Guild uses a Statue.
- The Animal Handlers Guild uses a Cage.
- The Fisherdwarves Guild uses a Filled Pond.
- The Farmers Guild uses a Millstone.
- The Engineers Guild uses a Gear Assembly.
- The Order of the Sword, Ax, Hammer, Mace and Spear each use a Weapon Rack.
- The Order of the Crossbow uses an Archery Target.
How and When Guilds Form:
- When your population of a certain job category reaches a certain minimum in either skill or members, the workers hold a meeting, which is announced. "Your _____ workers are forming a guild chapter." Options for the requirements include:
- Having a given population (5-10) at skilled level or above in any Guild skill. This would be easy to attain if you wanted it, but also prevent accidental Guild formation from immigrants. This option does not work well in professions where usually you have fewer, more skilled dwarves (ie Mechanics, Jewelers)
- A set percentage (10%) of the Fort must have a guild profession. This has the advantage of limiting the overall number of guilds in a given fort, but could spring a guild just from one big immigrant wave.
- A specific amount of experience (25000-50000) has to be obtained in Guild Skills. Conceptually the best choice but a veteran fort would likely end up with all of the guilds, many of which would have only one or two dwarves.
- A specific number of job completions in Guild skills. Also an excellent choice for realism, but shares the same weaknesses as an experience total.
- Not knowing the exact method Toady used in the previous incarnation of Guilds, it is likely the optimal solution involves a little bit of all of the above options.
- Alternately, when word reaches the Mountainhomes via the Liaison, the Guild could send a representative or an edict (again via the Liaison) offering or commanding your dwarves to form a local chapter.
- During the meeting the two dwarves with the highest average job category skill levels are selected as candidates. Among the two of them, the most popular is chosen as the local Guild Master. This dwarf becomes a "noble". All others have the option of joining the Guild.
- In the case of a succession, the above procedure is repeated by guild members to select a new Guild Master.
How Dwarves join the Guild:
- To be eligible to join a guild, dwarf must be categorized by the game as part of that job category. Players recognize this most by the color of the dwarf. To join the Woodworkers Guild, for instance, the game must title the dwarf as a carpenter, bowyer, woodcutter, or woodworker. If the categories change, the guilds will have to be modified to adjust to said changes.
- A dwarf can only be a member of one Guild at a time. If a dwarf changes profession and become eligible to join another guild, the dwarf will have to choose. Leaving a Guild will generate a negative relation with all other members. However, performing a labor of another guild without joining will generate negative relations with them. (Also see further discussion here.)
- The decision will be based on three criteria: The social relations between the dwarf and members of each Guild, the relative skill levels between the guild skill sets (with the current Guild being weighted), and personal likes/dislikes for materials as a tie-breaker.
- New immigrants and other eligible dwarves will be asked to a meeting by the GM to discuss joining. Failing to join damages the social standing of that dwarf with all guild members. Invitational meetings will be scheduled each time the dwarf rises in a guild skill. The negative social impact is cumulative.
DF Suggestions / Return of the Guilds - Guild Structure and Politics
« on: August 27, 2008, 01:06:21 am »DF Suggestions / Underground Diversity
« on: August 04, 2008, 11:26:29 am »See also the surface thread, Barbarossa the Seal God's Aboveground Diversity.
This is a brainstorming thread about features, creatures and events underground. Please feel free to contribute your ideas, point out flaws, or provide useful images, links or source materials.
This is not a discussion about game mechanics, balance issues, bugs or anything else not related to features, races, plants or animals under the surface.
UNDER NO CONDITION is this thread meant to be the end all, be all absolute PROPER place to post a UD related suggestion. DO NOT go around berating others for not posting here. Instead invite them here, or link their suggestion into this thread.
"^"s are external definitions and references (wiks, etc).
"*"s next to entries are links to relevant source threads
"(I)"s next to entries refer to features that could have an init option to disable due to FPS, annoyance or difficulty
See Toady's 10/15/08 comments here.
General Suggestions:
The underground world could be so much more diverse, with surprises to be found and opportunities to be exploited. The underground world could be as varied and diverse as the world above ground. Who says cave adaptation is a hindrance?
- Chasms, Cave ponds and Cave Rivers in Non-Mountainous Biomes: Perhaps less common, but still possible to find if one digs deep enough. Including traditional HFS in this is controversial. there could be crevasses in the glaciers, populated by yeti and other snowy threats.
- Large Underground Caverns: Potentially a whole other world underground. Extensive interconnecting caverns spanning multiple Z-levels could link underground features and off map sites. Features could include stalactites and stalagmites ranging from single tile icons to multi-tile structures to be excavated and built from/upon. See also here.
- More varied and natural cave, cavern and chasm shapes: Probably a tough one to fill, but it would be nice if features were not cookie-cutter presses with sheer, unchanging sides from top to oblivion below. See excellent suggestion here .
- A Reason to Dig Deeper: Another bit of nostalgia from the 2D version. Perhaps the density/frequency of ore and gems could increase as you dig deeper into the mountain. Not overly necessary right now, but with the features described in this list, motivating the player to delve into the depths might be desirable.
- Beware the Deeps: * * * (I) Currently only flying rocks fall, making the underground a very safe place. In reality the deep tunnels are very hazardous locations. Earthquakes can open rifts and caverns, collapse rooms, or leave unstable rock. Rock Bursts are an unpredictable threat that still takes the lives of modern miners. Some sections of rock may not actually be able to support the surrounding rock. Excavations in the area may appear safe, but lead to a cave-in. A highly skilled miner could detect unstable formations, and cause them to be highlighted in the dig screen like wet or hot rock.
- Deeper and Deeper: * (I) Since we're talking about adding more features to the underground area, we might want to have the map automatically generate and add more z levels when you reach the bottom.
more underground diversity
-- up on dev_next in part, though there are some issues with some of the desired ones, especially with digging down, since it can't load all that many layers, and solutions for slowing downward digging all seem sort of gamey or sketchy - Natural Gas Pockets: (I) A real life danger to miners, these pockets could be exposed causing suffocation, or potentially an explosion if they access a fire or other extreme heat source (ie magma). Other trapped gases could cause tantrums, erratic behavior, or all manner of trouble.
- Ventilation: (I) Getting fresh air down to the depths could provide a challenge. Implemented as a new flow, or as a simple "distance to the nearest air shaft", a lack of fresh air could slow and tire a worker. In extreme cases it might even lead to suffocation. Ventilation shafts could be augmented by mechanical fans.
- Black Gold!: It might be possible to find pockets, or even an "aquifer" of oil. Whereas the use of petroleum fuel is not really appropriate to DF technology wise, it could provide an added challenge, use as a lubricant, material for extracts, as well as interesting oil/magma traps. This could also serve as a home biome for petroleum based creatures.
- Empty Cave Rivers, Ponds and Magma Features: We already see some of this in "pit" chasms, but any underground feature might be empty. But it may not be empty in that you might find a cave forest, civilization, or creature that has adopted the space.
- Collapsing Dirt: With the addition of burrowing creatures the need to eliminate the tunnels becomes necessary, else the map will be swiss cheese very quickly. It has been suggested that excavations in dirt slowly refill or become impassable (perhaps one tile from every wall each season?). When it is important that a dirt tunnel or chamber remain intact (ie farms) then it is necessary to buttress back the dirt with rock or wooden walls.
- Realistic Rock Hardness: ^ Many players think that mining is too fast and easy. One solution is to have rocks have a a set hardness like Moh's Scale or better yet, Size Strength Metrics. Harder rock could require some combination of extra time, higher mining skill or pick material/quality to dig.
- Geodes and Crystal Caves: ^ ^ ^ Real life geodes can be as large as mini-vans. In DF they could easily be the size of a current cave pond or magma pool. The interior crystals could be just about any gem in the game or even flux stone. Glass lovers would be thrilled to discover a geode containing 50+ rock crystals.
- Hot Geysers: Not found in the Magma or Water sections because it involves both. Water close enough to magma could be heated and potentially produce steam. This can be utilized for a variety of purposes. Traps, Steam Power (if Toady goes there), steam baths, and ruining your FPS from flows are all possible. Also poses a new danger to miners if you accidentally open a natural geyser.
- 3-D Ore Veins: Those of us (un)lucky enough to have played with HFS know that not all veins are strictly two dimensional. Much like real life ore veins could span multiple z-levels.
- Folded Rock Strata: ^ Although it would likely be difficult to implement, folded structures would add interesting details to the surface layers.
- Stairs in Forts, Ramps in Caves: * When the game generates a fortress in adventurer mode, instead of using ramps, it should use stairs. Likewise, in a natural caves ramps should be used instead of stairs.
- Underground Features Affecting Surface Biomes: Some underground features (notably HFS) could have an effect on the surface savagery levels.
- The Basis of the Dwarven Faith: Buried deep underground, and exceptionally rare, the halls of the dwarven gods could be found, as detail in this post.
- Crystal Farms: Certain types of crystals could slowly grow on the surrounding rock, and could be mined out slowly to have a steady supply of gems or for crystal glass. Similar to the "Living Rock" and "Cave Kudzu" entries, the value of this feature could be balanced with dangers. One suggested addition includes spontaneous growth from contact with miasma and/or remains. Discussion begins here.
- Heart of the Mountain: Buried deep in the core of the highest peaks is a rare crystal formation that is somehow tied to the very health of the mountain. While highly valuable, mining these crystals could have odd and potentially dangerous effects. Discussion begins here.
- Salt Deposits: A new type of economic (rock salt) with export value. It can be processed into an extract (salt) that is usable as a spice. For completeness, forts with access to salt water could also produce this by boiling down the sea water.
- Impact Craters: A rather rare but valuable find is the site of an impact from a fallen star. Not only is a crater (maybe with a lake) an awesome location to build in, the possibility of finding iron, nickel, or some sort of star metal makes this a sought after feature. Discussion begins here.
- Black Lung: ^The bane of real world coal miners, our little dwarves might pay very badly for the sweet, sweet steel. Coal Dust + Lungs = Bad.
Remnants of Previous Excavations
In the long history of the world it is more than possible that a fortress or adventurer might find an excavation made by a previous group.... lucky or tragic.
- Abandoned Mines: Shafts could be dug into the mountain, connecting to partially or fully depleted veins. The entrance might have caved in so long ago the mine is not visible from the surface. The miners may have dug several layers deep. A fierce beast could have scared off the workers leaving picks, ore, and un-mined veins for the taking.
- Urist Rogers in the 4th Century!!!!: Perhaps a great dwarven champion from the age of legends mysteriously disappeared, only to be released from its rocky prison by your miners. This hero might offer to serve your fortress as its defender. Eventually, however the wonders of this new world might seduce the champion away. Alternate versions include ax wielding murderous dwarves frozen in ice or Spirits of Fire encased in a private ash or bauxite prison. Mix and Match.
- Buried Ruins and Battle sites: Sections of ruins or battlefields from previous eras could be buried in various locations to be unearthed. This could be used to add detail to the otherwise bland non-mountain biomes and to maybe reveal unknown pre-history legends. In these ruins you could find tools, valuable artifacts, secrets to lost recipes or technologies, and remains as well as potential dangers from monsters, curses, or other threats. Imagine the engravings! Adventurers would enjoy hidden trap rooms guarding artifacts or other treasures.
- Buried Treasure: Arrrr! Dead dwarves tell no tales. On islands and other coastal areas, adventurers or fortresses might unearth some buried treasure.
- The Terror Below: ^ It has been suggested that deep below there may be entire caverns filled with (maybe evil), living, writhing mass of ooze that could be exploited, built into, or otherwise used. Discussion begins here.
Magma Features
Ah the joys playing with molten rock. Magma seems to be one of the most hotly (ahem) sought after resources. It has so many uses from free fuel, to black wands of death, population control, and goblin disposal. Here are a few more uses/suggestions:
- Repopulate Magma Pipes from the Bottom Tiles.
- Magma "Aquifers": Deep underground entire layers could be composed of magma. This provides another option for metal crafters, even in areas with no vents or pools. Magma creatures could migrate on and off the map much like surface creatures do. These layers would link into existing magma pipes as well. HFS would pierce the mantle much like magma pipes pierce water aquifers.
- DEEP_MAGMA Biome: A revisit to the old "Hell" Biome entry. This tag is used to differentiate the normal SUB._LAVA creatures from the real nasties that live deep in the mantle (ie HFS).
- Branches off Magma Pipes: Instead of being a single column, magma pipes could have smaller branches that break off, much like the 2D cave river and chasm, or the HFS veins.
- Lava Tubes: ^ A tribute to the days of the 2D Magma river, lava can occasionally flow horizontally.
- Kimberlite Pipes: ^ Not really a magma structure, but a result thereof. Kimberlite naturally occurs as vertical cone or carrot shaped pipes, not as horizontal veins. Perhaps an algorithm similar to the one that creates magma pipes could generate a kimberlite pipe, with the occasional diamond cluster at its core.
- Eruption!: Already in Toady's notes, but mentioned here for completeness. Volcanoes, magma pipes, and any new magma features connected to off-site magma sources could rarely experience eruptions. These events would likely involve earthquakes as well. New layers of volcanic strata could also be formed.
- Lava Caves: ^ ^ Multiple types of interesting cave formations can be made by the cooling of lava, movement from one area to another, or the destruction of encased objects as the lava cools.
Water Features
One of the classic features of DF is the joy of playing with the water. Now here are a few suggestions to make this even more enjoyable.
- Repopulate Cave Rivers from Upstream/Source Tiles.
- Artesian Wells and more realistic Hydrology: A number of features, mechanics, and possibilities were outlined in this post.
- Variable Rate Aquifers: * Instead of universally pushing massive amounts of water, aquifers could generate water slowly.
- Natural Springs: Small columns of rock much like an aquifer, but that generate only a small amount of water. By tapping multiple springs you could provide a fort with a water supply.
- Connect the Cave and Surface Rivers: * In Worldgen Surface Rivers could suddenly go underground instead of carving a path, and Cave Rivers could emerge at the heads of brooks, or as waterfalls. A surface lake could be fed or drained via Cave River. By the same token, underground ponds, lakes and rivers can be interconnected.
- Seasonal Floods : ^ * (I) Cave Rivers could flood just like the 2D river did.
- The Great Undersea: Drawing from the works of Tolkein, the entirety of the world may sit on top of a great cavernous ocean. Mixing in a little Jules Verne and a lot of Hollywood, the shores of this sea could be populated by a lost civilization, dinosaurs, or pure evil.
- Underground Lakes / Open Areas in Aquifers: ^ * Aquifer layers could have pockets already hollowed out and filled with water. These pockets could extend multiple levels, including above and below the aquifer. Chambers above an exposed aquifer could be merged with cave ponds conceptually.
- Sand on Cave River Banks: When generating the cave river, some of the banks could have occasional sand floor tiles for glass lovers.
- Mud/Sand Flows: All the dangers of a water flow, and none of the benefits. Useful for generating sandstorms, quicksand, flash floods, etc. When the flow "dries up" it leaves soil much like magma leaves obsidian.
Subterranean Creatures:*
The player could encounter unique underground civilizations and interact with them , perhaps in the same ways as surface races. They could be found as ambushes, lairs, through tunnels, chasms and caverns. Goblins, batmen, ratmen, and antmen are all good choices. The inclusion of Orcs into DF has been suggested as well. All manner of albino, cave adapted surface species could be encountered.
- Repopulate the Chasms
- Bring Back Chasm Raids: For those unfamiliar with the 2D Chasm it used to be far more dangerous, and would generate raids from chasming refuse. The final solution was to "chasm" a great deal of magma..
- Truly Subterranean Dwarves: With all the possibilities of underground connections, it could be possible for dwarven civilizations to not be connected with the surface world directly. Their caravans would travel underground, their outposts settled in caverns and chasms, and trade links to surface races non-existant or extremely limited. It could be possible, for example, to begin play at the bottom of a deep chasm connected via tunnel to the mountainhomes, with the intent of mining up to open trade with the surface races.
- The Antmen: ^ The current favorite choice for an underground civilization. Antmen would have extensive, seemingly random burrows. The hive would of course be ruled by a queen, protected by soldiers, populated by workers, and contain chambers of eggs and/or larvae (which could be edible). The ants could cultivate a "unique plant" or aphids. This could be traded for, or potentially stolen by a hostile fortress. It has been suggested that antmen, by in large, to a be a more passive race. they would not attack unless provoked.
- The Ratmen: ^ These rodent rascals could burrow in dirt, creating warrens similar to, but smaller than Antmen. Unlike Antmen, however, they would be actively hostile, seeking to find ways into your fort. Much like goblins, they could also be prone to stealing children, howver in this case, to eat.
- The Gremlins: These little jerks lack their 2D capabilities for mayhem. Giving them the ability to burrow or having them be dug up by miners would bring them back into their glory. Further mischief they could cause includes eating your food, drinking your booze, breaking mechanisms, or releasing chained/caged animals in addition to their traditional love of levers. A further list of annoying behaviors can be found here.
- The Trolls: Adversely affected by the sunlight, the true troll "civilization" dwells underground. These trolls are much stronger, smarter, and better organized than would be expected. With low technology, massive appetites, and barren caverns their population remains small. They are also plagued by goblin kidnappers taking their young to serve as living siege weapons, or alternately, they are actually the outcasts : 1 in 100 goblin children born abysmally mutated.
- Lair of the Spider Queen: Far deadlier than the dreaded (or coveted) Giant Cave Spider, an evil race of slave herding intelligent spiders dwell deep in the underground. A detailed write-up can be found here.
- The Nest: Even though the legends record the last dragon/hydra died in a battle two hundred years ago, an excavator could discover a nest, its entrance long since buried. Inside there could be hatchlings or even eggs. Do you seal it up immediately, or take a chance to have a pet dragon for your arena?
- Burrowing Creatures:The ultimate threat to a Dwarf Fortress has a taste for dwarf flesh, big claws and an irresistible urge to dig. Discussed many times in many threads, this remains one of the most common and most controversial suggestions. Distinction could be made between soil burrowers ("Giant Badger" anyone?) and Stone Burrowers ("The dread Rock Worm"). To prevent excessive tunneling by minor creatures, some species (like Gremlins or Rats) could dig tunnels too small for dwarves to see or enter, but with entry holes that can be built over to seal them. Yes, for the record, this includes Sand Worms.
- Endolithic Biome: ^ * ^ Organisms such as slimes, jellies and oozes could live in the rocks, posing a random threat to miners. The deeper you delve, the more dangerous the creatures could become.
- Living Rock: (I) A true endolith, perhaps a "breed" of rock exists that repopulates itself using a system similar to Conway's Life algorithm. Providing an endless amount of stone, it could be a rather large nuisance: blocking tunnels, filling rooms, and potentially encasing sleeping dwarves.
- Rock Creatures: Ranging from normal size all the way up to a Rock Titan. They might have an outer shell of rock and might even eat rock to get the minerals needed to form the large shell deposits. Obviously they would need to eat flesh as well, dwarves being the preferable light snack. One interesting twist could be that one of the smaller rock creatures uses the same icon as a stone, with the same color as the rock it was mined from. "How many times do I need to designate that chunk of olivine to be dump...you know the one next to all the corpses!"
- Fossils/Undead: One great suggestion was the possibility of digging up the fossilized remains of a long dead creature. These fossils might have some use/value as components or materials. The could also be undead with much higher DAMBLOCK than default skeletons. Other possible encounters include excavating a long forgotten tomb, or coming across a hidden city (maybe even an outpost of a civilization) inhabited by vampires or other sentient undead.
- Lost Worlds: One excellent way to add flavor to large expanses of caverns would be the inclusion of rare, extinct, or unique biomes. Perhaps dinosaurs roam the place, or an entire cavern is populated by savanna cats complete with tall grasses. Other interesting effects include mind altering magic, suspension of normal "physical laws" or other pocket dimension type stuff.
Underground Flora:
Despite the lack of light, it is clear in the DF universe that plants can indeed flourish underground.
- Stone/Ore specific species: It has been suggested that some underground flora should be unique to specific types of stone or metallic ores, perhaps gaining unique properties from their environment. Discussion begins here.
- Un-Muddied Plants: More of an aesthetic request, but herbs and tower caps growing in a muddied cavern could be displayed as green to develop contrast and appeal.
- Cave Rivers/Ponds with existing Tower Cap Forests : Tower Caps could already be growing around cave ponds. In addition, a cave river could occasionally open into a long cavern with raised banks (perhaps with real dirt) on which forests grow.
- Glowing Fungus: When the lighting arc goes in, certain breeds of fungus could give off light. These could be harvested by Dwarves as portable, smoke-free light source. However, it is possible that the fungus might enjoy the taste of a snoozing dwarf.
- Subterranean Extracts: In many of the alchemy, magic, and healing threads it is clear that the option to collect rare herbs for extracts (like Kobold Bulbs or Valley Herbs from the surface) found only underground is a great option. Similar to Quarry Bushes in the 2D version, they may not be found in all fortresses.
- Cave Kudzu: (I) There could be a nasty fungus or plant with an accelerated growth rate that rapidly fills all tiles it can get to (and block access). You could of course, chop it down with axes. Maybe there could be a "mother" fungus tile that, when chopped down, stops the growth.
- Excavating Plants: Ranging from a totally new life cycle for the Tower Cap to a new fungus that fills a cavern and grinds away at the cave walls. Discussion begins here in the thread.
- Clinging Plants: Hanging from the walls, or even the ceiling, some cave plants could grow in normally inaccessible locations. These creepers could block access to the stone they cover, requiring removal before getting to the goodies underneath. A fun (and mean) variety might prefer the ceilings of large caverns, and grab passers-by with its long, blood sucking thorn covered vines.
- The Madness Plant: borrowed from a very old precursor to this list, this rare plant spreads pollen in close proximity. This pollen causes insanity in sentient races, leading to abnormal behavior, mood swings, and maybe even psychotic rages. Best to try to just wall it up and build around it, or come up with some way to kill it from a distance (cave-in, pour in magma, encase in ice, etc).
Meta-game Modifications:
Some aspects of the game may have to be augmented to integrate the above suggestions.
- Room to Build: More of a guideline, rather than a suggestion, there should always be enough room to actually build a fortress (despite how subjective that is). When possible, a feature should telegraph its presence out to a realistic distance so the fort can be well planned. IE Miners might here the sound of rushing water, or here a hollow thump in time to build around the feature.
- Visible on Site Finder/Embark: A number of players are concerned about finding or avoiding this new content. Coupled with the axiom of "Room to Build", these new features could be marked on the embark/site finder interfaces. Most could be lumped with caves as "other features", but some of the more dramatic ones (ie large caverns, lava tubes, oil aquifers) would need extra attention.
- Controls in WorldGen: When appopriate, there could be controls in the world gen parameters for the frequency of major underground features (ie rivers, caverns, magma or oil aquifers, etc).
- Settling on Tunnels: Dwarf Fortresses should be able to embark on sites accessible via underground tunnels connected to other Dwarven Fortresses. The wagon and initial 7 would spawn inside the tunnel.
DF Suggestions / "Same as Last Year" option for Trade Agreements
« on: July 31, 2008, 09:39:38 am »(edit: slightly revised due to a suggestions by korora and Lightman)
Two hotkeys on the trade negotiation menu:
(C)lear all settings - which resets all sliders to the far left
(L)ast Years settings - which sets all sliders to last years final agreement.
Also, the possibility of an init option to have the interface default to one or the other.
I don't know about most of you, but I usually end up requesting the same goods each year. Both the humans and the dwarves bring me metal not present in my fort, meat, plants, booze and wood if I have little on the map. Like a lot of people, I also import large amounts of gems. Having to do the down-right-down-right-down-right shuffle through five categories is not good.
Clancy McHuman: "So, do you like this year's goods?"
Urist McTrader:" Yup, good haul as always. I have more stone junk for you."
Clancy: "Will it be the same order this year?"
Urist" "No, I think we need to talk." OR "Yeah, but let's take a look at it in case I forgot anything."
Clancy: "In that case...about all these mugs......."
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / a dedicated dwarf child
« on: March 06, 2008, 11:08:00 am »But now the king's throne room would have one little corner of non-engraved, rebuilt wall. The fashion police (aka the OCD patrol, a very strong guild in this fortress) insisted it be fixed.
A slim section of stone was going to be dropped into place from above using a controlled cave-in. The problem was, this required a hole in the floor of one of the booze piles near the main dining hall. Everything was moved out of the way (or so it was thought).
<Crash> and the stone slid into place...even the same type of stone... <crash> 150 units of beer and young Feb Tosidevost followed it down. Little Feb (a member of a sizeable family headed by our legendary smelter) had broken an arm, a few ribs, his lower spine, and mangled his leg.
Instead of dragging young, poor Feb back to the family domicile, his mother (yes, his mother) brought him to the main barracks and propped Feb next to the wounded soldiers.
No sooner did she leave then Feb suddenly felt odd, and started dragging himself towards the nearest workshop. Several weeks later he was able to evade his caregivers long enough to claim it. He then dragged his mangled broken body across the fortress (did I mention it is a BIG fortress?) and collected various odds and ends to make:
My 29th artifact
Muzkes (Fungusscratches), a Tower Cap ring
decorated with Tower Cap
encircled with bands of Larch
menaces with spikes of Tower Cap
Image of a Felsite Earing (We have 6) in Turtle Shell
edit: And in recognition of his great endurance and dedication he has been sentenced to 117 days in prison for failing to complete a work order.
I LOVE this game.
[ March 06, 2008: Message edited by: Othob Rithol ]
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Wow the new story forum looks good!
« on: March 20, 2008, 03:59:00 am »I thought about posting this there, but I didn't want to trample the fresh-fallen snow.
edit: and I go and select the wrong bookmark and post without looking: was meant to be in the gen discussion. Sorry!
[ March 20, 2008: Message edited by: Othob Rithol ]
DF Suggestions / Uses for Water: Farms and Soap
« on: March 08, 2008, 06:24:00 am »-----
Problem: Farming is too easy. Feeding 150 dwarves with 2 farmers on a 5x5 plot is, sorry, lame. Dirt is abundant, and mud is annoyingly permanent. Remember when we used to work out irrigation systems?
Solution: Farms can be built on any tile (maybe rough/not smoothed for realism). When the planter finishes the planting, a new task is queued : water plants. A dwarf has to get a bucket, fill it with water, and use it on the plant. If the plant never gets watered it doesn't grow. Maybe it even dies. Some plants might need to be watered more than once, and one or two might not need water (prickle berries? Pig tails?). No water.. no plants.
Why: The extra task slows the rate plants are produced. And whereas you could just have the farmers run back and forth from the main well with buckets, a local irrigation system of flooded channels would mean it was fast and efficient. Nile farming becomes viable again, since the river is RIGHT THERE.
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Problem: My dwarves are covered in goo. We have useless soap.
Solution: A dwarf has a new time-wasting self-activated action : bathe. He/she does so less often than they sleep. Masons and Smiths can make tubs, which can be filled with a bucket. Some nobles require a tub in their rooms (Mayor/Captain and up?) complete with demands for adamantine tubs in their throne rooms/tombs.
Ideally the dwarf uses soap to wash in a Tub, but any water will do.
A clean dwarf is a happy dwarf.
Dwarves get the following thoughts:
++ Enjoyed a good bath recently (100% cleaned with soap, in a tub)
+ Had a bath recently. (75% clean using soap OR a tub)
- Was annoyed he/she was only able to rinse himself/herslf off (50% clean in a river/pond)
-- Was unable to bathe recently
As an added piece of realism, you could go so far as to have uncleaned vomit/blood etc slow healing, cause small wounds/disease or occasionally spawn vermin.
Why: A - because currently they are all Gully-Dwarves , B - it makes an already in-game item worth making, and C - anything that upsets a dwarf and might cause a tantrum is a good thing. oh and D - a sizeable portion of the fan base is ...real... OCD.
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PS - oh yeah and make an init option to remove all kobold and goblin clothes and bring back seasonal floods! And um...nevermind, I'll put it in the next Tell-Toady-how-to-make-HIS-game-better post
DF Suggestions / New Subforum
« on: March 13, 2008, 04:38:00 pm »How about a subforum for succession and community fortresses. As it currently stands they dominate the Dwarf Mode Discussion forum such that it is pushing current architecture/strategy discussion to the 2nd page.
I am happy the community is so lively (and enjoy reading them too) but I think that segment has grown to the point it needs (and deserves!) its own home.