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Topics - BlckKnght

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1
DF Suggestions / Ignore or finish off incapacitated enemies
« on: April 08, 2010, 02:12:46 pm »
I've found the discussions of unkillable creatures and ineffective weapons in DF2010 to be quite interesting. Though there very well may be some bugs making things work differently than Toady intended, I think that a substantial part of it comes from a more realistic model of combat wounds. Many of the wounds that would come from medieval combat would not be instantly lethal. Slowly bleeding to death from an injury really should be more common than instant death! However, many of the injuries that won't kill you for hours or days should put an immediate end to your effectiveness in combat (severed limbs, head injuries, etc).

The big trouble with the new not instantly lethal wounds is that combatants don't recognize when an enemy is not a significant threat any more. I think that when a creature is unconscious or when several of its body parts have been severed or mangled, it should be considered to be incapacitated by the creatures that are fighting against it. Exhaustion or a stunning blow might temporarily incapacitate an otherwise unhurt creature. When a creature becomes incapacitated the opposing creatures should not fight it as before. Instead they should either ignore the creature (and fight against other more capable enemies) or they should target their attacks more thoughtfully so as to finish the incapacitated foe off quickly.

Ignoring an incapacitated enemy is obviously advantageous to creatures who are fighting against many opponents. It would also make it more likely for injured creatures to survive close fought battles, either because they will leave an enemy to bleed out while they get medical treatment for their own severe wounds, or because a victorious enemy ignored them long enough for them recover (and run away) or be rescued by allies.

Finishing off an incapacitated creature is the other side of the coin. If a fighter doesn't have anything else they urgently need to do, they should try to kill nearby incapacitated enemies as quickly as they can. This sort of attack should be more deadly than fighting an actively resisting enemy! Throats can be slit and spears thrust between ribs. Even against an armored enemy, daggers can be stuck through eye-slits in helms or through under-arm gaps in plate armor perhaps, or an enemy's helmet or other armor could be deliberately ripped off to expose a vulnerable area. Wrestlers could focus on chokes and other potentially lethal techniques (head strikes) rather than twisting a third toe.

Figuring out exactly how such finishing moves should work within the existing combat and wound systems may be a bit complicated, but it might be something that could be folded into a more general "enemy vulnerability knowledge" system (which I think Toady plans to add eventually). Attacks against an incapacitated creature would be much more likely to target a vulnerable spot.

Anyway, what do you think of this idea? I think it will add both balance and realism to combat, as strong, well armored fighters will be able to move from enemy to enemy more quickly, while still being vulnerable to having their throats cut if they eventually get overwhelmed. Hopefully this kind of system would prevent 100+ page combat reports being the norm when armored creatures fight in the arena and stop dwarf mode soldiers from starving to death while trying to finish off a marmot.

2
DF Suggestions / Brainstorming about tools
« on: February 19, 2010, 07:22:03 pm »
I think there should be many more tools for dwarves to use in DF. This is not a new idea.  There have been numerous other threads about tools for use in workshops or to be carried by various professional dwarves and used as improvised weapons.  Here are some of the more interesting ones I've found in my searching (though there are many more). A very recent one is here.

I would like for this thread to be a place we can all brainstorm what different tools could be useful for various Dwarf or Adventurer mode jobs, and how they would be made (especially what materials would be allowed). I'd rather we not spend time arguing about whether an expanded set of tools would add fun complexity or annoying micromanagement to Dwarf mode, or about what tools are important enough to include.  Lets add everying that fits within the DF technology base (which is more or less what was available around 1400 in Europe). I've included some things that are more likely to be constructions, but which are sufficiently "tool-like" (e.g. they do the same job as a hand tool, just faster or better in some way).

To save a lot of redundant typing, any tool without materials listed next to it below should be assumed to be made with metal and wood parts (e.g. a metal head and a wooden handle) at a blacksmith's shop. Items with a * require a metal that can hold an edge. Bronze is probably the softest material that would be good for those, though perhaps low quality versions could be made with copper or even stone blades. I've ordered the list in the same order that dwarven professions are shown in the unit list (as listed here in dwarffortresswiki).


Miner
  Pick*
  Mattock*
  Shovel (can have a wooden head)
  Hand-drilling bit (iron or steel) or drill-wedges (wood)
  Sledge hammer
  Geologist's hammer

Woodworkers
  Hand axe* or hatchet
  Axe*
  Adze*
  Drawknife*
  Hand saw*
  Two-man (two-dwarf?) saw*
  Saw mill (a construction rather than a tool, perhaps as described here)
  Wood carving knife* or Utility knife
  Wood chisels* and Gouges
  Mallet (can have a wooden head)
  Drill*
  Claw hammer
  Splitting maul*
  Wedges (metal or wood)
  Sledgehammer
  Jig (wood, metal or stone, suggested by Impaler[WrG])
  File (metal, suggested for this trade by Impaler[WrG])
  Vice (wood or metal, suggested by Impaler[WrG])
  Square (wood or metal, suggested by Impaler[WrG])

Stoneworkers
  Stone chisel*
  Mallet (can have a wooden head)
  Stonemason's hammer
  Trowel (for spreading mortar and plaster if they are added to the game)
  Plumb-bob (stone or metal, plus a rope, suggested by Silverionmox)
  Jig (wood, metal or stone, suggested by Impaler[WrG])
  Square (wood or metal, suggested by Impaler[WrG])

Rangers
  Weapons of various sorts (projectile weapons and spears especially)
  Animal collar (can be leather, cloth or metal)

Metalsmiths
  Anvils (iron)
  Tongs and Pliers
  Forging hammer
  Sledge hammer
  Peening hammer
  Trip hammer (a construction, rather than exactly a tool, this would require power from a wind or water mill)
  Bellows (leather)
  Metalworking chisel* (the tool should be made of metal harder than the item being worked on)
  Coin dies (iron or steel)
  Swage block (metal)
  Draw plate (metal)
  Crucibles (made of refactory clay, if such ceramics are added)
  Sand casts (sand, water)
  Hacksaw*
  Files and Rasps (metal)
  Grindstone or Whetstone (especially hard types of stone)
  Molds (soft stone or plaster, based on a suggestion by Andeerz)
 
Jeweler
  Grinding wheel or Lap (iron, steel, hard stone, or diamond)

Bone carver
  Bone saw*
  Bone carving knife*
  Grinding wheel (stone or metal)
 
Clothier
  Scissors* or Shears
  Utility knife*
  Measuring tape (cloth or leather)
  Needles (bone or metal)
 
Glassmaker
  Blowpipe (not the weapon, a tool for glassblowing, made of metal)
  Pontil AKA Ponty (a metal rod)
  Shears (of any metal, as they don't need to be very sharp compared to other industries)
  Tongs
 
Leatherworker
  Shears*
  Punches and Stamps
  Mallet (leather, wood or metal)
  Heavy needles (metal, maybe bone)

Stone crafter
  Stone chisel*
  Files and Rasps
 
Weaver
  Scissors* or Shears
 
Wood crafter
  Any carpentry tools
 
Strand extractor
  Tweezers (metal, suggested by Silverionmox)

Fish cleaner
  Various knives*
 
Fish dissector
  Tweezers (metal, suggested for this trade by Andeerz)
  Knife* or scalpel (suggested by Andereerz)
 
Fisherdwarf
  Fishing spear (wood, bone or metal head, wooden shaft)
  Fishing rod (wood)
  Fishing line (silk?)
  Fishing hooks (metal or bone)
  Nets (cloth or maybe leather)
  Gaff
 
Brewer
  Brewing kettle (copper or other corrosion resistant metal)
  Wine press (wood and a mechanism, though perhaps this should be part of the workshop)
  Ladle and other stirring implements (metal or wood)
 
Butcher
  Cleaver*
  Various other sorts of knives*
 
Cheese maker
  Cheesecloth (cloth, obviously)
  Knife*
 
Cook
  Chef's knife*
  Lots of other knives*
  Pots and Pans (coper or other heat-conducting, non-toxic metal, or ceramics)
 
Dyer
  Ladle and stirring implements (metal or wood)
  Mortar and Pestle (stone)
 
Grower
  Hoe
  Mattock*
  Plow* (metal cutting blade, wood construction, leather or rope for straps to a draft animal)
  Rake (can be all wood)
  Shovel (can be all wood)
  Trowel (can be all wood)
  Pitchfork (can be all wood)
  Sickle*
  Scythe*
 
Herbalist
  Sickle*
  Scythe*
 
Lye maker, Milker, Miller, Potash maker, Soaper
  Nothing?

Tanner
  Knives* or scraping tools
 
Thresher
  Flail (wood or metal)
  Press (for sweet pods and other liquid plant extracts, wood and a mechanism)
 
Wood burner
  Axe*
  Shovel (can be all wood)
  Splitting maul*
  Wedges (metal or wood)
  Sledgehammer
 
Mechanic
  Wrench
  Pliers
  Calipers (wood or metal, suggested by Andeerz)
  Other metal, wood or stonecrafting tools

Pump operator
  Nothing?
 
Siege engineer
  Carpenter's hammer
 
Siege operator
  Wedges or shims (made of any reasonable material)
  Crowbar
  Stonemason's hammer (for rounding off catapult ammo)

Administrators and architects
  Pen or quills (metal or feathers)
  Abacus (wood, bone or metal, suggested by Silverionmox)
 
Cleaning tools
  Broom (wood and straw)
  Mop (wood and cloth)
  Shovel (for Snow or other messes, can be all wood, suggested for snow by Safe-Keeper)
 
Personal hygiene tools
  Scissors*
  Razor*
  Comb (bone, metal, or certain kinds of stone)
  Brush (wood or bone with plant fiber or animal hair bristles)
 
Food service tools
  Plates, bowls, mugs, goblets, wineskins (ceramic, wood, stone, metal, or leather)
  Spoons and Forks (wood, stone, or metal)
  Carving knife*



So, what have I missed?

3
In Dwarf Fortress right now there is only one form for wood to take, the humble log. I propose that we go beyond logs and include three other forms of wood that have been commonly used throughout history: firewood, beams and boards. Note that my suggestions are independent of the different kinds of wood (oak, maple, pine, etc), though there might be characteristics of different woods that would make them better suited for use in different forms.

Logs would kept pretty much as they are now, coming from trees that are cut down by a woodcutter. They could be used to build rough walls and burned to charcoal, but not much else.

Fallen branches, brush and other small wood growth I collectively call "firewood", since that what it would be used for. Firewood would be gathered from trees in a similar way that plant gatherers collect food from bushes (no axe required). It would be used as the fuel for some furnace jobs that do not require exceptional heat (and possibly in other places, like kitchens, if fire use is ever expanded).  Workers could perform a new "chop firewood" job that would turn a log into a stack of fire wood items, allowing a fort to stretch its fuel supply (I'm not sure what workshop would have this task though).

The other two kinds of wood, beams and boards, would need to be cut from logs at a workshop. I propose two new ones: the saw pit and the sawmill.  A saw pit uses manual labor to do the sawing (usually one sawer on top and another below the log, something that might be hard to exactly reproduce in DF).  A sawmill would require an external power source (and a "large, serrated disc" in its construction). Powered sawmills may have been used occasionally in antiquity, with some sources describing Roman sawmills powered by water wheels. They did not become widespread until centuries later, spreading through the Islamic world in the 11th century and into Europe through the 13th and 14th centuries. Much later industrialization provided more plentiful power sources and sawmills completely replaced the remaining saw pits, which required backbreaking effort from their workers.

Large beams would be used for substantial wooden constructions, such as for pillars and floors over open space (lintel and beam construction), bridges, and as axles for machinery. Beams might also be used to shore up tunnels through soft rock or soil, if any of the "difficult mining" suggestions gets adopted. A beam represents lumber 6x6 and larger in size.

Boards would represent lumber of smaller sizes, so you would get more of them from each log.  They would be used for all smaller carpentry projects (doors, tables, etc) and wood crafts. Finished wooden walls might require a beam for the frame and boards for paneling (this would only make sense if material quantities for construction get rebalanced at some point such that more than one item is typically used).

What do you think? Would dwarven society benefit from a more realistic wood usage model?

4
Dwarves in DF do not use any of the many ceramic and cementing technologies that would fit in with their technology level. While some of that might simply be that they prefer carved rock construction, it seems to me that they should still be able to make pots, bricks, concrete and other similar things even if they don't like the resulting products as much as granite or obsidian (after all, they already make things out of leather and wood). I know there have been proposals and suggestions for some of these items, but I thought I'd try to get a bunch of related suggestions in one place.

The simplest change would be to add ceramic crafting to the existing kiln workshop. Clay would need to be gathered in a similar way to sand, then fired into various items, such as pots (which would work like barrels). Different kinds of clay might make different kinds of pottery, just as different regions of Earth had greatly different ceramic traditions. Glazing could also be applied to ceramics to decorate and change the color of the finished piece, in a multiple step production process.

In addition to making clay mugs, craft items and other things, clay bricks could be made and fired for use in construction (they would work just like stone blocks). Of course, the building of brick or stone walls should require mortar to hold the bricks or stones together. While a clay based mortar is possible, a better mortar would be a form of cement.

There are several cement products that could fit within DF technology. The ancient Greeks and (especially) the Romans used cement mortar and various forms of concrete in their constructions, some of which have survived for thousands of years to the present day. It should be noted that I'm talking about ancient forms of cement which are not the same as what you would get if you buy a bag of cement from a store. Modern "Portland" cement was invented in 1796 and so does not fit in with the DF technology base.

The key substance for making classical cement is lime. Lime has several forms, which modern chemistry has shown to be two different Calcium based compounds. They can both sometimes be called "lime", depending on the the context.

Calcium Oxide (CaO), known as burnt lime or quicklime, is a dry white powder. It comes from heating limestone or chalk in a kiln to dissociate Carbon Dioxide (CO2) from the Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) in those minerals. Quicklime is highly caustic and reacts strongly with water (giving off heat). It has some uses beyond cement, but probably not many that are important to DF. In DF it could be made in the already existing kiln workshop.

Calcium Hydroxcide Ca(OH)2, known as hydrated or slaked lime, is what you get when you add some water to quicklime. Depending on how much water is added, you can get either a dry white powder (which can be stored) or a wet paste. When wetted and then allowed to dry, slaked lime gradually turns back into limestone by absorbing CO2 from the air (this is why lime based cement sets). In DF, it could be made in an alchemist's workshop by combining a bag of quicklime with a bucket of water.

The simplest form of cement is slaked lime mixed with water and sand as a filler. This is still used as mortar even today, though it doesn't hold up to water as well as other formulations. This was the form of cement used in Medieval Europe when other kinds of cement were forgotten.  The common proportions for this mix were 1 part lime to 2 or 3 parts sand.

More sophisticated formulations add a "pozzolan" substance, such as volcanic ash, making the chemistry more complicated, but resulting in a cement that sets faster and holds up better to water. Pozzolans are named after the first known example, a volcanic ash called pozzolana found near mount Vesuvius (though it also occurs around other volcanoes). Volcanic ash was widely used in cement made by the Greeks and Romans. Powdered brick and other fired clay products were used as a man-made pozzolan in some Roman construction.

Pozzolanic substances contain silica (and often alumina). It brings silicon (and aluminum) into the cement in a chemically available form. They react with slaked lime to form a variety of compounds that add strength to the cement (the chemical reactions are much more complicated than in plain lime cement). Many mixtures of these cements are known as "hydraulic" because they will harden even when fully submerged in water. Some limestone deposits already include pozzolanic minerals and naturally form hydraulic cements.

Lime-Pozzolanic cement was used as as mortar by the Romans for most of their structures, especially water related civil engineering projects like aqueducts and bridges.  These cements still take a relatively long time to set fully (days to months) but less than for non-hydraulic lime cement.  It is not clear why these superior forms of cement were forgotten in Europe during the Dark Ages, given how widely the Romans used their cement technologies.

In DF, volcanic ash might be found as a new soil type near volcanoes and magma pipes.  It would need to be gathered like sand, in bags. The alchemist's workshop could have a cement-mixing job available, where slaked lime, water and sand would be combined, optionally including  volcanic ash to make hydraulic cement. The resulting product could be used as mortar for wall building, or further mixed into concrete. If it was not used after a while, it would harden into a cement block.

Concrete is made by adding an aggregate of gravel or medium sized crushed stone to cement.  The wet concrete can then be poured into wooden forms to create almost anything, including blocks, floors, whole walls, heavy tables and chairs, large doors, and all sorts of other large objects. If any of the "Realistic Mining" ideas gets implemented, there may be a great excess of scrap rock for the dwarves to get rid of, and concrete would be one positive way to use it.

Another cement product is plaster for finishing walls, both internally and externally (plaster can also be called stucco or render). Lime plaster is basically just a form of fine cement that you spread over an wall to improve it's aesthetic properties and to seal it from moisture and dirt.  In DF, plastered walls probably can't be engraved, but they could have frescoes added to them by the plasterers.

Whitewash is effectively a very thin plaster that can be applied with a brush, like paint. It is made from slaked lime and chalk. Wood and stone surfaces are easier to keep clean if they are whitewashed, but it is not a good paint for indoor living spaces because it will rub off onto anyone who touches it, making a white mess on their clothes. I'm not sure if it has any place in DF, but I'm including it in my suggestion for completeness.

Let me know what you think of these ideas. Are there additional important uses of ceramics or cements? How would adding any of these change the game around? What kinds of implementation challenges might they pose for Toady One?

One thing I like about my ideas is how they can combine well with other ideas:

For example, if digging was changed to not produce stone items (as suggested in a recently resurrected thread), concrete and brick might become important building materials. If mining gets changed in the other direction and starts producing realistically huge quantities of scrap rock, a lot of it could go into concrete production instead of just being dumped.

As another example, if tools (such as hammers and chisels) were required for civilian labor like stone carving, less tool-intensive production systems like brick and cement might be essential in forts that don't have a metal industry yet.

5
DF Bug Reports / [38c] Squad members deploy on both sides of walls
« on: May 18, 2008, 04:55:00 pm »
I've been struggling with a relatively minor issue regarding how the members of squads are placed.  If I order a squad of marksdwarves to defend my fortifications, often some of the members of the squad end up deploying outside of the fort.  Similarly, if I place my melee squad in a hallway between two fortified rooms, some of the squad members may choose to wait inside the rooms (even if the rooms do not have entrances nearby).

Here's what I've observed about the issue:

The squad leader always goes exactly where the squad is stationed.  The other dwarves in the squad are always within a few squares of him, but they completely disregard anything in the intervening space (walls, channels, etc).

Here's a screenshot of a two member squad, where a marksdwarf choose to position himself outside of the fortifications (and across the (currently) dry moat from the Mayor, his squad leader:


You can also see two members of the melee squad in the hallway below.  When the other two members of the squad show up, it is a good chance that at least one of them will stand behind the fortifications to the north or south (and while you can't see it, the entrance to the room to the south is a long walking distance from the hallway).  Melee troops there are entirely useless to the squad, which is placed where it is for the purpose of holding the hallway.

Edited to try to fix image... (x3)

[ May 19, 2008: Message edited by: BlckKnght ]


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