Bay 12 Games Forum

Related eternal vote

Never seen a topic on this, and none linked in the eternal suggestion thread. With it being the 4th pick, I feel it's time to bring it up formally.

It's has become important enough that this needs to be brought up, no matter how touchy a subject it has been in the past.

Dwarf Fortress has exploded in the past 6 or so years. It has grown larger and more complex, and there is no hint that this is even close to the halfway mark really, no matter that we're on version 0.40 of Dwarf Fortress.

We need an overhaul of the UI on every level of the game NOW.

To quote the eternal voting suggestion thread:

It would allow the community to improve the UI, all Toady would need to do is convert the UI into an XML format. We could spend the time improving the UI so Toady doesn't have to, possibly bringing in many more donaters and expanding the popularity of DF.

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Before we even begin to get into how to actually set this up, or rather how it should be structured, we should first address -why- this is so important.

Anybody who knows about game design, as it is done in the professional industry, knows that you go through what is called a Design Spiral. As time goes on, you add more features, and they depend on previous features, so that changing previous features starts to fuck up anything added later on. There are ways to mitigate this and given Toady's history of changes, I think it's safe to say he's taken a good many of these already, but the point remains, the UI, as far as I can tell, has only been added to over time, it has never, in fact, been fundamentally overhauled, as it will need to be in the future, since the beginning of this entire development cycle.

Portions have been ripped out wholesale, bits and pieces have been replaced, but the root UI has never been altered.

This state of affairs cannot continue. Eventually we will reach a point in complexity and interactions that will require that the UI be altered so that the game is actually playable for anybody who's not been playing since before the 2012 release. We're already approaching that breaking point I might add. As fewer and fewer people are able to make headway with the system.

This is not to say the game itself is a problem, it is not. There are plenty of games that have just as many features (at least on the front end of things, back end, god only knows if anything has approached DF levels of complexity), that are more accessible, even ones with ASCII graphics, because their UI is not as labyrinthine nor requires learning nearly as many hotkeys or the use of third party software to easily play, as DF does.

Now, we can wait for Toady to get around to this himself, but the fact of the matter is that until the final product is done, the full necessary UI will change again and again. Combined with that, I believe Toady has said UI isn't his forte as I recall, much as Graphics isn't, which is why he made Graphics amongst the easiest to edit things for Modders in the first place.

Further, it might get to the point where so much complexity has been added, that changing the UI would break the system so thoroughly that Toady would not reasonably be able to make the necessary changes without setting himself back years in work simply to sort through all the bugs.

That is why, here and now, we need to ask him to implement an abstracted, modular, moddable UI. Something that will enable the modder community to change the UI and eventually for us to settle on a nice, reasonable UI that helps gameplay along without being obtuse nor sacrificing control over the game systems.

Edit: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=150131.msg6257905#msg6257905 probably the most important post in this thread

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Now that we have discussed WHY this is necessary, let's discuss how to implement it.

I'd argue that making the UI something that is broken down based upon the following things would be necessary:

• Value Changes (things like setting your starting skills on an embark)
• Typable areas (searches, etc.)
• Selections (the usual keyboard interactions when you're choosing stuff)
• Screens (switching between not just say, the maps, but also other things such as between the main screen, the stocks screen, or the military screen, or the individual information about a dwarf)
• Uneditables (places of text that are reading directly from the system, and we don't want the players to be able to interfere with, such as the information on a dwarf's emotions).
• Containers (basically boxes that organize the look and layout of stuff)
• Links (either sends you to another screen, or activates a choice or designation such as mining)

I think that covers the various elements.

From there we'd want to set up a system, possibly in XML or other format, where what is being calculated is relative position of items based upon whatever standard measurement toady wants.

So you'd say
<Layer A>: (0.2,0.2) standard units in size, placed (0.3,0.5) standard units away from the bottom left hand corner of the DF window (which is (1.0,1.0) standard units in size total).

Next we want to put something inside of Layer A, call it <Layer B>. The new standard of measurement puts the size of Layer A (for the purposes of Layer B) as (1.0,1.0). So Layer be will be positioned relative to Layer A's size and postion in all cases.

Thus, notation could be read as for any one line:

layerName,sizeX,sizeY,posX,posY,UIFunctionType,SpecificUIFunction,imageFileNameIfApplicable

• layerName: Name of the Layer for the code to read and organize around
• sizeX:How wide the layer is, used by subLayers to understand their own relative positions, and reads from the screen resolution set at the beginning of the XML.
• sizeY:How tall the layer is, used by subLayers to understand their own relative positions, and reads from the screen resolution set at the beginning of the XML.
• posX:How far along the width of the higher layer this layer is, as defined by relative numbers.
• posY:How far along the height of the higher layer this layer is, as defined by relative numbers.
• UIFunctionType: Which of the above functions I listed this layer will be. Mostly they're going to be containers.
• SpecificUIFunction: Basically the linkage to a master list of all the various interactions in DF, what says when a link is going to send you to the military screen, or activate the dig designation
• imageFileNameIfApplicable: Would allow modders to make really pretty graphics sets specifically for the UI to make the overall feel much more friendly

a single space or some other predefined designation (such as "blank") could be put into any unusued slot. So if your container type doesn't have a specific function (which it shouldn't) then just put in "blank" after that comma. Same for any image files if you want to use the default dwarf fortress graphics.

then you'd drop a line, and you'd have it read so that anything inside of another layer was named

layerName_SubLayerName_SubSubLayerName,sizeX,sizeY,posX,posY,UIFunction,imageFIleNameIfApplicable

The above would be for a layer inside of a layer inside of a layer.

So everything would be defined by the first line, which would set the overall size of the screen to whatever.

WindowResolution=X,Y

then under that you put in the lines as I described above.

So the XML file, in a very simple way might look like this:

WindowResolution=X,Y
layerName1,sizeX,sizeY,posX,posY,UIFunctionType,SpecificUIFunction,imageFileNameIfApplicable
layerName1,subLayerName1,sizeX,sizeY,posX,posY,UIFunctionType,SpecificUIFunction,imageFileNameIfApplicable
layerName1,subLayerName1,subSubLayerName1,sizeX,sizeY,posX,posY,UIFunctionType,SpecificUIFunction,imageFileNameIfApplicable
layerName1,subLayerName1,subSubLayerName2,sizeX,sizeY,posX,posY,UIFunctionType,SpecificUIFunction,imageFileNameIfApplicable
layerName1,subLayerName2,sizeX,sizeY,posX,posY,UIFunctionType,SpecificUIFunction,imageFileNameIfApplicable
layerName1,subLayerName2,subSubLayerName3,sizeX,sizeY,posX,posY,UIFunctionType,SpecificUIFunction,imageFileNameIfApplicable
layerName2,sizeX,sizeY,posX,posY,UIFunctionType,SpecificUIFunction,imageFileNameIfApplicable

Then all the UI would be controlled by a single XML file, or you could potentially break it down so each Layer is it's own XML file, and the information on sublayers is contained within an XML file named after the layer it is defining things for?

Anyway. I hope this wasn't too difficult a read, and that it'll help Toady or anybody else figure out how an abstracted, relative size UI could function, and that this kind of thing can be implemented before feature-bloat renders it impossible or impractical in the future.

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edit: Also, potentially depending on how little or how much control over the UI that Toady wants to give us, the whole UIFunctioType and SpecificUIFunction variables could be removed entirely and he defines what all of the various options we have to work with are by giving them all specific layer names that we then organize however we wish by putting them in, plus giving us some 'empty' layers that we can use to help rearrange stuff is we so desire (or just the ability to MAKE empty layers named Container1,2,3,etc).

To be more clear. The initial system I defined potentially enables players to come up with entirely new ways of interfacing with the game. Not just the current methods of altering data. I'm not sure how it would work in that case, but it -could-, in theory, be done, or at least make it easy to do so.

If we go with this method I just editted in, where the layerNames are already specifically linked to particular functions of the game (for example, on the start screen, each option, the logo, etc, would all be specific layers and named as such), then Toady retains 100% control over the raw mechanics of what players can fool around with, and modders only control presentation.

So I've been thinking on stuff. I didn't know where else to put this, so here it goes.

Evil races have a problem in that they don't have something like a regular low class invader that hits them constantly like goblins do for Good races.

We also have a problem in that there are A LOT of races, and we're probably going to cull them down some.

So my thought is this: Move the Drow over to replace the Ashlander elves and the Deep Drow. That gets rid of two races right there (And the Deep Drow aren't all that fleshed out ANYWAY).

What do we replace them with?

Centaurs.

Centaurs would be a nomadic people with portable forges, not meant to be played, fast reproducing, semi-decent stats but not much in the way of armor, natural lance and bow users. Commonly assaulting Evil camps on a regular basis like goblins do for the good guy races?

So our two sides are like this:

Good:
-Imperial Humans
-Dwarves
-Sylvan Elves
-Gnomes
-Centaurs

The dwarven legion could be replaced with the 'Legion of Light' a multiracial 'adventurer's' civilization that could be called upon. It would be composed of good guys of all races, predominently the good races, but also some examples of the bad guy races as well.

Evil:
-Orcs (non-taiga orcs should be redefined as Corsairs since they fit the bill quite well, more worried about profit than honor?)
-Goblins
-Drow (Rename these guys something else perhaps? Like Deep Elves, or Fae. Fae are said to have come from under the hill after all? They don't live in forests but under mounds).
-Warlocks
-? Something else?

Mercenary faction for the Evil races would be the Flesh Circus. Slave traders, bargainers, and vile fiends of all sorts. Give them a circus vibe obviously.


Any other thoughts on racial balance and stuff?

So, I had this idea.

What if there were organization entities (which are coming eventually) that are dependent upon certain conditions coming about during world gen.

For example. To get say, 'Night Creature Hunters' or 'Undead Hunters' who have special abilities (magic, or crafting skills or something else) that assists them in doing their job, you actually need a god whose spheres are aligned with that profession. If you don't have a god of death who is good, then your world will never generate any undead hunters.

Another example might be 'rangers' who would be kinda super hunters. Gain access to special crafting options and taming options for normally untamable beasts and such. If your world doesn't generate any neutral-savage bioms (or whatever sphere relates to that when we stop having bioms and instead have spheres), then you'll never get this organization.

These organizations would be civ specific (since civs have their own gods and such) for the most part. It also depends on territory they appear in.

Undead-Wranglers would be evil civs that happen in evil bioms, and have the ability to 'tame' the undead as if they were pets. And have gear special ability to do shit.

You get the idea.

The way this would work is that it would be 'organization specific' reactions. Only members of the organization would have the ability to build what I'm going to generally call a "Lodge". Without a lodge of the relevant organization, you can't train the reactions that are used outside of it (for example. Undead Hunters would be able to train the 'Dead Hunting' skill or the 'Exorcism' skill there. One gives them higher accuracy and skill in weapon skills against undead, the other allows them to actually kill ghosts).

You could 'gain' these reactions by having specialized moods. if you're in the right sphere or have a dwarf worshipping a god of the right sphere, then there's a chance they'll have a "Vision Mood" and have their caste changed. If this can't be done easily with their normal thing. Then it'd work by having the character 'die' and then his corpse resurrect like undead do, a new caste, still alive, only occurs when a character 'dies' at the end of a Vision Mood which will happen no matter what the player does. They come away with new skills and reactions, including the ability to build a Lodge for their new group and thus create more of their caste? Alternatively, the new 'caste' isn't 'Member of X Organization' it's "Founder of X organization" thus creating a new entity from scratch.

So let's say you're part of a dwarf civ. During world Gen, your civ never founded a home in an evil biom. This means you civ would not have the ability to produce undead hunters unless it had a god of the relevant spheres as well. So you found a home in an evil biom, and now you have a chance of your place becoming the source of the dwarven undead hunters.

What do you guys think?

edit: Actually, if implemented, this could potentially be used to turn jobs into castes. So organizations form different castes. Your dwarf with smithing skills might be able to help with basic smithing reactions, but until he joins the Smith's Guild for your civ, he'd not be able to do certain reactions or use more specialized blacksmithing things. You could also have organizations rise up from ethics.

Basically. Each civ would have their starting 'default' castes, and always get the stuff associated with them. They would get others over time based upon the spheres of their gods, and others still from where they settle. So you could potentially have humans with proper miner's guilds because they worship a god of mountains, or dwarves with elven 'tree singers' or whatever they are that allows them to get wooden goods without killing the trees if they have a god of forests or something.

While I think that the current system of memorials for the dead is a good thing. I think that memorials shouldn't remove ghosts entirely, rather just appease them. Prevent you from getting ghosts that have lethal side effects rather than ones that cause unhappy thoughts.

This will require a proper religious tradition, but basically the idea is that dwarves are only properly lain to rest when the funerary rights of the civlization they're a part of are met.

For evil groups, this might automatically be set to 'die in battle' as an appropriate funerary right, thus preventing you from being flooded by goblin ghosts as long as they died during a siege. But some of the more prideful ones might rise up after being killed by cowardly traps, or simple magma. Thus requiring you to have special weapons to kill them or priests to banish them.

But other dwarves might require to be buried in a full coffin, their body as intact as possible, and not naked. The funerary rights of a culture might call for specific clothing. Perhaps a dwarf HAS to be buried with a pickaxe, helmet, and in chainmail. Nobles would require better funerals with more valuable materials as part of the funeral rights or they'd rise up as a ghost.

Things like that.

Religion would allow you to placate ghosts who simply could not be rescued for one reason or another. Further, ghosts would be stuck within X distance of their body parts, able to move the shortest distance possible between two such radiuses if they don't over lap (for cases of explosions of body parts and such).

Hey guys. I'm nearing the end of my rope in a project I'm doing.

A few months back, me and some friends began work on an indie project using Project Anarchy, a sci-fi mobile game using C++ as the basis for the game. Unfortunately, we hit some serious bumps. We lost our greybox, and later on our head artist (who had to be let go because he was also the co-lead and refused to do any work, producing a grand total of one piece of concept art while ordering everyone around vaguely and generally confusing everyone and killing team moral) who also sabatoged as much of the project as he could.

We've only just gotten around to salvaging our efforts.

But we need at least one of two things.

We need a concept artist in order to begin producing pictures for other artists to follow up on of races, technology, and scenery.

We also need a C++ programmer who is familiar with or willing to become familiar with Project Anarchy (or has a suitable alternative in mind for mobile device making. Project Anarchy is just lucrative because it's a free license).

Any advice would be helpful. Payment is negotiable, but is probably going to be in equity, a slice of the future profits, or a contracted fee based upon milestones.

Okay, specifically, I need to know how far can I skip a minecart I've launched via impulse rail? My idea is as follows:



    So idea for a new misting mechanic.

    Set up impulse ramps or just a buncha rollers. Whatever. The point is that you want the mine carts to be going very fast.

    Set u windows or grates or whatever under your main hall.

    Make it so your mine carts are set on a circular track made for launching the mine carts across a body of water under your meeting hall so that all your dwarves can just look down and see the mist.

    Set up a bunch of these so they're skipping over the water, creating mist along the entire length of your meeting or dining hall or whatever.

    If I'm correct, this is less power intensive than using mist generators, and it'll generate FAR more mist.

I understand that there are grass equivalents underground, but is there a way to force them to grow on ground that's stone? I mean, if I can find soil in a cavern and level it out all well and good, but I've been having ENORMOUS trouble finding a stretch of cavern wide enough to convert into a proper pasture >>

can I muddy stone and have it start growing fungi and moss if I just leave it alone for long enough?

I'm wondering if it might be possible to make something like a farm plot that instead takes rotting substances and turns it into salt peter which could then be used in combination with "lead pellets" to make bullets for guns (which are easy enough to mod into the game now with custom workshops and items and such)

If not, is there a way to make a workshop that takes rotting substances and turns them into salt peter by way of a labor?