Bay 12 Games Forum

Your changes looked good to me. You can see the what the final diff looked like here: https://github.com/DFHack/dfhack/pull/3385
Dreamfort changes are here: https://github.com/DFHack/dfhack/pull/3386
The changes will be in the next DFHack release, but of course Dreamfort doesn't fully apply yet in v50 until quickfort us updated (see https://github.com/DFHack/dfhack/issues/2974)

Did you learn anything more about those stuck jobs?

No, I just deleted them and recreated them from scratch. The game is just full of aggravating bugs.

I really feel like hauling is not keeping up; I have over 40 dedicated, plus militia still not assigned to squads, the laborers, a few others I am still allowing hauling on. Shit sits in the depot a long time, although at least it is the non-perishables like leather, cloth, etc. I am also buying in bulk. We have mussels as well, which generate a lot of crafts. Granted I am using an awful lot of child labor as well, and they probably spend more time playing than working.

Steel production is just not keeping up, granted 40 is really not enough stock since it takes over 20 to fully equip 1 infantry dwarf. I have plenty of flux but of course too little is being properly hauled with wheelbarrows and the furnace operators are carrying it up by hand; I really need to lock down the supplys. One good thing I will say, the shortages manifest in the breastplates and greaves, so that part of the orders is working well. All 4 infantry squads at least have the rest of their gear even though only 1.5 squads have bp & greaves.

Drink production is barely keeping up as well, which is odd, I've never had a problem with the 1 still keeping up. I have 4 farmers assigned and generally someone is in there brewing. I was getting a lot of job cancellation spam on drinking, and I think that is related to the combine-drinks script (which I've just stopped running) but even worse I noticed a lot of puddles of spilled booze which I am not sure how that happens.

This current fort has also been a bit of a victim of its own success I suppose as I got migrant waves of 30+ and have reached max pop here in year 3. You would think with the extra manpower things would run smooth.

Quote from: ldog on May 12, 2023, 05:34:54 pm

Anyone need a complementary copy of "Secrets of life and death" ?

I never seem to get this in a book.  The game taunts me with slab after slab.  But never a book anyone can actually read.

Yeah, apparently you cannot make them write them in fortress mode either. Between that and the slowdown from not drinking (it is very real) they are just useless twats. Actually they are worse than useless if you don't want the kind of fun they create in battle. It is just not dwarfy to not drink booze and I don't allow vampires in my fort for that same reason. Much as I hate weres too, at least they drink. Depending how old the necro is, you can uncurse them and they will either die of old age or become normal dwarfs.

So conferring with Myk, the simple meals thing was some video he watched which seemed to make sense at the time but then he was unaware that you still get 1 meal per ingredient no matter what kind of meal it is. So 5 each of 4 ingredients makes 20 lavish meals in 1 job, or it makes 20 easy meals in 2 jobs, but either way it is 20 meals. So they are pretty pointless, but if you want to make them for whatever reason it isn't horrible either. I suppose your cooks will skill up twice as fast if you make simple meals (because the xp gain is per job and you are doing twice as many jobs per ingredient).

We're also going to remove the platinum weapons from the work orders (that was more involved than you'd think because of all the chained conditionals) as well as the silver crossbows (I moved silver mace and war hammer down under steel in the priority order...so we'll make silver ones if we don't have steel instead of as an upgrade from steel). So if you want to see how I did the platinum it is there, Myk will probably put new files up on the dfhack git soon but being as I'm pretty sure LNP is dead you'll have to update them yourself (or am I the only one left who refuses to upgrade?). I mean I'm sure I'll breakdown and get the Steam version sooner or later but I assume the work orders are still compatible and relevant.

Still trying to isolate this crash. It is interesting that it is just THIS piglet.
The latest migrant wave had 2 keets and some other bs and I butchered them all and saved the game without incident.
Stepping through this with the gm-editor, it is the important historical figure for some reason, I guess there was actually an event with the pig?
Removing the relationship was fine, so was removing the name. The historical figure flags set to false and it crashes on save. I guess I'll just butcher it and move on.

Some general suggestions...take them for what they're worth from a long term user, but I am still on 47.05
I don't really know what your plans are but since you're doing a reboot I figure might as well throw them out there as food for thought.

The skill sorting would be better along the lines of workshops that go together and guild sorting (so like the sub-guilds of the broader guilds).
I've got my own custom grid views which work for me, just please don't get rid of the ability to customize them if the thought had crossed your mind.

The attribute weighting, and I know it is customizable as well but I haven't had any success with it. It's a bit...weak. I mean if someone has skill then obviously they are a stronger candidate, it really is a no brainer at that point. When I need evaluations is when I've got 30 equally useless twat migrants and I want to know who has better stats to grow into the job. Granted this is pretty minor but it's just a feature I would like to make more use of.

Yes, you've captured all the items.

I think your service level designations are fine. Actually it is possible I was reading off a different version than what is actually in my installation. The other levels apply their traffic designations fine.
Now one thing is it still doesn't seem to discourage them eating and drinking the prisoners supplys. I also notice children will still play in the worst places regardless of settings(like the cage trap corridors, especially on my cavern level). When I restricted the workshops they were going too far out of their way to avoid them, there are times when it makes sense for them to cut across, I just want to discourage it so this seems a little better.
I am seeing that a little goes a long way with this. Like I had made the entire surface trap corridors low traffic but once again it was too much as they were going outside and then back in the long way to place a lot of the cages. I dialed it down to just making all the bridge tiles low traffic and that seems better.
Suites level I set the doors since there are 2 in each room and this will discourage cross traffic. It probably all could use a bit more experimentation and observation.

Oh, I wasn't aware we had to put in special handling for the silver and platinum (I guess I forgot). I'd probably let it go at this point if it saves you any effort. Silver weapons aren't really any better. Keeping the archers on a short leash and not letting them melee (especially in leather armor) wood crossbows are perfectly fine really. I'm still debating whether to make the city guard my best melee. It is easy enough to protect your own people by paying a little attention to mandates and outsiders who run afoul of the law I generally want dead. I had actually started giving the squads manual kill orders last game I was getting so frustrated with all the artifact thefts. Then there was the fact that the sheriffs now seem to like to punch perps to death for "resisting arrest" anyway, regardless of what weapon they are carrying. I officially consider the weak xbow justice squad to be outdated methodology.

Y'know I hadn't even considered not having silk, but that is a perfectly valid point. I tend to trade for it, I have never had any success creating a GS farm like ever. Yeah, it is probably worth having a fallback plan since any cloak is better than no cloak. The thing I learned about leather is there is "armor grade" and there is "clothing" and for clothing leather is not superior to the others. Plant cloth is actually heavier than the rest (although it isn't that big a deal) and silk allegedly has slightly better cutting resistance so I'd fallback to yarn, then leather then pigtail. Robes or dresses might be worth adding too, other clothes I gave up using long ago because I had too many problems with them equipping everything (like socks/mittens/hoods are just asking for amputated feet/hands/heads when they don't put on a boot/gauntlet/helmet), besides the main thing here is we are adding a little face protection which is otherwise totally lacking. OTOH, we can't set a preference in the uniforms, so it's either silk cloak or just cloak. Yeah, I guess just go with the silk for uniforms. Don't forget to update the uniforms too.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gh3pwq9w7Tc_W1vixkFDzFHaZu9XV6C2/view?usp=share_link
Man I forgot how much work that file is! A flag for "wood" would be really handy by the way. As it stands we just check for shields and crossbows (and of course there's other work orders it would be useful for). It just occurred to me silk gloves would be better too, since gloves are not considered armor and there's no leather gauntlets, but I didn't make the change in the file. Leather boots are actually considered armor as well as the leggings, helmet and of course the leather armor. Ok so I bumped the leather pieces to 10 or 20 as needed, removed platinum since we are no longer considering it a weapons grade material (the regular furnace order has smelting still), removed all platinum items & conditions, removed silver crossbows and silver conditions in the other xbows. Added flux/steel/etc conditions to silver mace and war hammer.

Yeah, the 5 each of 4 kinds of meat I bring on embark makes 20 lavish meals. If we made it into simple meals we'd get 20 simple meals. The only difference AFAIK is you need to have 4 different ingredients. The cancel spam is because that order is so huge, 150 meals. Generally the ingredient variety isn't an issue. Remember they only eat like once per season. Oh, and actually an easy meal uses 2 ingredients, not 1. Yeah, no real reason to make them.

It is possible that I didn't have the latest and greatest files when I began this run, it was before I pulled down the R8 files, so possibly whatever was in LNP, although I might have done intermediate updates. It's been some months since I have played. So if it was something you changed more recently it might be a false alarm. I know I did have the new services level layout since I had started a new game specifically to check out that round of changes.

I've noticed a little wierdness on the orders export, conditions not always exporting. Like I specify unused dyed silk cloth in my cloaks order, but the export just captured cloth, I manually changed it to silk cloth. I think I caught and fixed everything though.

Howdy, howdy. Hope all is well. I see you've been keeping busy.

I started playing again, still 47 though. Testing out the newer changes. I like the new sheriffs office and the more streamlined services level in general.
The traffic is interesting, I've been messing with it a bit on other levels. I don't know how much it really helps FPS anymore but it can't hurt.
The services level applies it somewhat spotty. Also I like to restrict the reservoir tunnels.
Industry level I added high traffic on every tile not a workshop (originally I restricted the workshops but I didn't like how that was working out)

So when you made the last round of changes I think you grabbed the loom instead of the dyer for the supply from feeder & QSP. It's the dyer that needs to be restricted so it doesn't dye hair and adamantine. The loom should still be free to grab adamantine from the metal QSP since that is a specific job (it won't happen by accident) also it has caused a lot of cancellation spam when I buy thread & cloth but it is still in the depot. So unless you found a reason I am unaware of the loom should be free.

After reading an interesting new science thread on weapons which my own observations support, platinum isn't worth using. Besides disappointing performance it is really heavy. I've removed it from my work orders. Also moved the silver down below steel (prior we had considered it an upgrade but now I am using it only if steel is unavailable). In short steel is the most sensible material for blunt weapons.

Replaced leather cloaks with silk. It is slightly better and trying to conserve leather, especially since civilians will grab your cloaks too. Wood shields for archers uniform. Leather isn't any worse (except for bashing, but then melees get metal shields) but again wood is generally more plentiful. And always shields, no bucklers. There is no advantage, only drawbacks, at least before Steam version (obviously I am ignorant of any differences in the new version). I've decided that either there were stealth changes with armor or my playstyle needed updating, but either way I have changed my mind about full metal archers and am going with leather, although I may give them metal helmets, I have to see how the leather works out. The full steel just slows them down too much and they don't seem to do enough sparring to build the needed skills. I bumped the work orders for leather armor up for a full squad. It's doable if you take all the leather the first few caravans bring.

Why did you add easy meals to work orders? I see no advantages (other than the cook getting more xp?) since you always get 1 meal per ingredient, so the lavish may use 4x the ingredients but that means 4x the meals. Is there something I am unaware of? There was also a ton of cancellation spam getting that first order of 150 done.

Contrary to the docs, the locations are not being set to citizen only. I was wondering why I still had visitors showing up (although monster hunters come no matter what it seems).

I think that's all I had.

Quote from: Mobbstar on May 11, 2023, 10:49:56 am

Grazers which are not assigned to a pasture (such as pets) must be fed.

Pets? you mean "cavern and lava exploration probes"? those only need to be fed if they aren't "put to work".

Seems an awful waste of good meat...
I've got a pretty strict no livestock as pets policy, I'll let them keep their dogs and cats but for everything else:
1. Select offending meatbag in game.
2. Type gui/gm-editor into dfhack window.
3. Expand flags1, find "important_historical_figure", change this to false.
4. Do the same in flags2.
5. Scroll down to 2nd page and find "relationship_ids", expand, change "Pet" to -1 (this seems to be bilateral and the former owner will get no bad feelings)
6. Butcher!

Quote from: ldog on May 10, 2023, 09:37:36 pm

So if you take a look in your "\Dwarf Fortress 0.47.05\dfhack-config\orders\library" folder (if you aren't using DFHack I have no words for you) you'll find a pretty comprehensive set of work orders that Myk and I put together. Including meal prep. While they aren't perfect we worked hard to minimize cancellation spam (it makes me insane) and they are pretty good examples of how to use work orders (I'm particularly proud of the armor & weapons ones).

I generally embark with a slightly modified version of clinodev's craftswarves embark, with enough ores to start out smelting bronze immediately and arm all dwarves and furnish at least reasonably good quarters immediately.

Other critical workflows with multiple steps that generally benefit from conditionals are soap and steel. 

I find if I clutter up the manager menu with too much stuff, I end up with tasks that never get done, so I try to use it for the critical, complicated ones, while keeping it simple (i.e. if less than X produce Y) with the others.

I try to use custom stockpiles and other things (like limiting workshops to Legendaries in the relevant skill) for when I want only quality craftsdwarfship for certain substances (like candy or aluminum or cut gems), or to manage stress if someone is going batty from hauling rocks outdoors while it rains elf mucus or something vile like that.

I'll definitely take a look at these.  I'm sure there's something I'm doing wrong that I could be doing better at.

Myk and I have tested them pretty extensively. Myk for those who aren't aware is one of the Dfhack rockstars. I did a lot of playtesting for the Dreamfort and I came up with a lot of the complex workorders (making the best weapons/armor out of what you have available but always keeping you stocked, and it is geared for constantly melting lower quality gear since that is something I do as well), but Myk's code made it all possible. Being able to add new features/correct vanilla bugs is pretty handy.

I know clinodevs embark profile well, my own embarks were all based on it. I do like to bring both materials for bronze and a pair of picks though. Although it doesn't seem as critical as it used to to dig in fast, old habits die hard. I honestly have trouble getting sieges anymore. Even with towers, the necromancers all come as immigrants for me. Anyone need a complementary copy of "Secrets of life and death" ?