Bay 12 Games Forum

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on December 30, 2023, 05:12:17 pm

I'm not asking about the mark to kill you, I don't... really think you're scum. I don't know, but I'm not going to vengekill you. I'm asking simply to determine if you have the mark, to put another hole in Elephant's theory.

I lost it N1, immediately after gaining it.

How does that put holes in Esteemed Elephant Parade's theory?

If the mark is removable, it's not scary, is it? You being around lends credence to it being removable.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 30, 2023, 04:37:04 pm

@Elephant:
I also find Webadict's death very strange on N2, because either scum tried to kill Imp on N2 (which doesn't make any sense because Imp would have been kill-immune if you believe Hector) or more realistically they somehow bypassed my bus to kill Webadict regardless, which is worrying. I'm also a little perplexed why I didn't die last night since it was pretty obvious I was going to protect the super inspect cop. Did they try to kill Imp anyway or what?

Possibly. Regarding N2, the possibility that immediately comes to mind is that Hector is scum and his NK bypasses the immunity he grants. Alternatively, scum targeted Imp because they are silly noobs.

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on December 30, 2023, 04:38:30 pm

The SK accusation is, with utmost sincerity, flattering. Following TricMagic's flip, I don't think an SK cult would exist with two SKs (counting TricMagic as one, since, well, look at their role).

Quote from: Elephant Parade on December 30, 2023, 04:17:43 pm

I guess you could also have been redirected, BHK, but then who has the mark? Crystallizedmire? Scum? Crystallizedmire, who is scum?

If I was redirected, the redirector would have the mark.

Maybe the redirector is dead, too.

(...)

Sigh. I am decidedly town, and as stated above, I can't envision room for an SK. This is a mislynch which I would consider dumb if not for how confusing the whole situation is, when we have better  candidates. The entire game has had some flavour of night action mischief, why do you think I'm involved when I explicitly tried to stay out of all of it after seeing the writing on the wall? The most I can be faulted is being secretive to try and forward my gameplan for the town's sake.

Do you truly think that I'm an SK that gets roleblocked on being visited? An SK with the brilliant gameplan of marking all the peripheral players so that I could try to mark one confirmed town and die? Is this your accusation? If so, I think I know how Jack feels.

(...)

For TricMagic to become an SK, he would have had to use Noxious Neurotoxin Breath to apply Fallout Fumes to two players, then successfully use Feverous Fang Bite to kill both of those players in a row without being blocked/redirected/wrong about who NNB hit/having used NNB on one of multiple status-immune players/having Fallout Fumes cleansed by whoever it was who claimed status cleansing/having his target protected. Tric turning into a serial killer is an improbable edge case that doesn't preclude another SK being in the game. I do agree that it's weird to have SK-Allies in a game with more than one potential SK, but I'm pretty sure it's been done before.

Yes, I do think you could be an SK who gets blocked upon being visited because you deathmark anyone who visits you. Maybe if you die with every living player deathmarked, you kill them all and win, like a suicide arsonist. This is speculative, I know, but not particularly implausible.

Tric would be encouraged to keep trying, though - even without the SK alignment, I'd argue that to be the equivalent of the effective presence of an SK. Likewise, under your accusation, that would be two SKs with the exact same goal of inflicting some sort of "mark" on everyone. It's a speculation that I don't put much stock in and wouldn't if I were a theoretical third player overseeing this case.

Relevant question - Imp, do you still have my mark?

Also, how much time is left in the day?

Er, if I'm not marking someone with my visit.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 30, 2023, 04:06:40 pm

Quote from: Jim Groovester on December 30, 2023, 04:00:04 pm

Max, if you and only you ask me to I will directly clarify a few things.

Jim you have a lot of the information here. If you're really in a groupchat you should probably be wary about a BlackHeart elimination. If you're not in a groupchat then...isn't BlackHeart just scum here from your POV?

Thank you for putting effort into this when you feel sick, I really appreciate that and hope you quickly feel better.

Likewise, that's very admirable play .

Quote from: Elephant Parade on December 30, 2023, 03:57:24 pm

@Fallacy: Do status effects stack unless stated otherwise?

Yes, status effects can stack.

Then either I'm, again, right, and Lenglon didn't visit me, or my action to mark Lenglon failed (and Lenglon may be 'dead'?) Or another possibility I don't have enough information to piece together.

BHK: So you have one action that applies Mark and a roleblock and one that just applies Mark?

Yes.

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on December 30, 2023, 03:37:20 pm

I wasn't visited

Wrong.

From my perspective, you're wrong, because I would have gotten explicitly told that someone visited and blocked me. Unless, if Lenglon visited me, is Lenglon not considered a living player?

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on December 30, 2023, 03:46:08 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 30, 2023, 02:11:39 pm

Esteemed BlackHeartKabal, why would you claim "I am a roleblocker. If I visit someone, I roleblock them and apply Marked by Death" And then later claim you can visit without roleblocking?

Firstly, as to not get nightkilled.

Secondly, as pointed out above, it took me until Lenglon to consider not blocking people if they're suspects I might vengekill anyway.

Are you interested in discussing with Esteemed Maximum Spin how/why that one is so sure they have evidence that Esteemed Lenglon visited you?

Of note, Esteemed Lenglon states they targeted Esteemed Maximum Spin who has stated to be untargetable.

There is a lot of weird involved in every way.

I have no idea what's going on with the visits beyond the above stated theory with Lenglon and I.

Wait a second. This doesn't make any sense. BHK, you've claimed to be auto-roleblocked by anyone living visiting you (with a possible flavor exception?). If Lenglon really visited you, you shouldn't have been able to action her. Even if her visit somehow didn't roleblock you, she should have gotten two stacks of Marked by Death: one from visiting you and one from your mark action. (I say this because FoU says my bomb status stacks despite additional stacks having no practical effect. It's possible Marked by Death works differently, but I doubt it.) So either Lenglon didn't roleblock you and Marked by Death doesn't stack, or we've made a mistake somewhere.

What are you talking about? I wasn't visited, and I marked her. I made this clear. Likewise, what am I getting out of not roleblocking if I have the option?

Look at that wagon off of one explicitly erroneous assumption, good lord.

I find it entirely plausible that BHK isn't in a groupchat and is therefore not groupscum, but she still needs to explain the inconsistency between her role claim and her N3 claim.

What inconsistency? I wasn't visited, I marked Lenglon. And regarding the mark stacking, nothing indicates that it would stack, and I don't know if statuses inherently stack or if it's only if explicitly stated.

BHK: Skimming your posts, you've only mentioned Secretdorf twice, and, unhelpfully, they aren't on your reads list at all (I think someone else already pointed this out).

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on December 25, 2023, 08:40:42 pm

(...)

Regarding you and hector, yes, they were both the same questions, but hector was never suspicious to me, and your questions were posted first to begin with. I've outright said that I consider hector to be town, and I trust his reads - so that both of you focused on Sofanthiel early made it a good lead to follow, barring the concluded unlikely circumstance that both you and Sofanthiel were scum. Even if hector were suspect, then the only thing that would matter in that regard would be copying your reads - but he wouldn't. As you pointed out, he likely came to the same conclusion independently. Which, again, wouldn't just happen without a reason. What's the issue here? And, following that, what gives the impression that just because I'm focused on you and Sofanthiel doesn't mean I consider Mire and Secretdorf suspects as well? We can't do everything all at once - we have a system of days and nights that provide us limited opportunities to do things, and the priority is not just in finding scum and hostile thirds, but also prioritizing order of investigation and elimination one we have that info, in this case.

(...)

Quote from: BlackHeartKabal on December 26, 2023, 04:41:00 pm

Quote from: Imp on December 26, 2023, 01:05:23 am

How does everyone feel with the Esteemed Secretdorf having the only vote in the game?  And/or so many that they can instantly hammer by themself?  We're not there today.  Tomorrow?  D5?

With the control over the vote, and the lack of scumhunting so far, and them still being alive.  I am as close to concerned about this as my calm and kind ruleset allows.

Should I mark them, as a safeguard in case they try to do something funny later on?

(...)

In terms of reads -

Firm Town camp -
hector13 - As again, I have a fair confidence in him. He hasn't done anything I have a particular distaste or suspicion for.
Maximum Spin - Webadict and Jim's mason, apparently.
Lenglon - Again, not a suspicious person, if a bit overeager to policy.
Toony - The trusty bus miller that was willing to sacrifice themselves. Again, not really suspicious at all, and verifiable.
Jim - Webadict and Spin's mason.

Town Lean -
Imp: Why do I want to trust you, but still feel that small bit of suspicion that keeps me from wanting to confirm you in my mind, even after our cordial interaction?
Canadian - They've been more active and scumhunting. Not shifty enough to go either way.
Parade - If they've claimed, I might have overlooked it. There's nothing to really verify with them, but they've been acting decently independently and haven't done much scummy.

Ambivalence and the Unknown -
Knightwing - mimir
Mire - Hasn't posted, and could go either way. I should pay more attention to her.
notquitethere - I don't know, at all. The lack of webbing is suspect, but maybe it's because anyone visiting me stops my actions, blanket?

Sofanthiel, of course, must die.

Given that, what makes them priority numero uno today?

I wanted to mark them, but then I figured that they'd be lynched soon, and it was a waste of a mark and commentary following that logic. I thought that letting someone sit by and build up votes with their almost mercenary attitude regarding us would be a foregone conclusion to lynch them, so I just figured "this will sort itself out, I can factor out Secretdorf regarding my theories and focus on potential leads after the death of Secretdorf." I presumed too much thinking ahead and lost track of the present. Accordingly, we're "behind time", so to say, regarding their elimination.

The fact that they remind me of how I won the last game I was in as a third party also has me extremely on edge with them to begin with, but it's not like I can make a judgment on them based on that alone. I should have just used my words instead of operating on an assumption I thought was so utterly inevitable that I could consider it to be a future set in stone.

Apart from the above, I thought I got it across in the two mentions of Secretdorf that you're quoting that they're a suspect to me.

It could be Esteemed BlackHeartKabal. It seems odd they would have just a “marked by death” action if they also have it with a roleblock, or if someone has to act on them, particularly considering what they can do with it if they die. Why just mark someone you say you’re marking because you find them suspicious if you can also block them too?

I would suggest that’s a bit more damning of them than Esteemed Jim Groovester tbh. I just mentioned my N3 in case someone had thoughts on it.

I didn't block because I didn't feel that I would block much if Lenglon turned out to be scum, and if Lenglon is town and an investigator, if I choose to block them, I am blocking an investigator. Too little reward and too much risk to block and mark instead of just marking. I didn't mention this way of marking because I figured that I wouldn't get shot too early with the impression of relative inconsistency regarding my role, but now that's out of the bag, I need to contribute as much as I can.