Bay 12 Games Forum

Some type of attack aim readjustment to the vital spots(neck?)

That is the idea of the "finish off" half of it, at least.

Attacks on vulnerable spots could be done at any time, but they are more likely to be used successfully against an incapacitated creature. I'm not sure if it's something that an adventurer could deliberately trigger or if it would be better to simply include it as a variation on a normal attack.

As for how vulnerabilities would be defined, I think it should be possible for the body raws to have information identifying the vulnerabilities a body part has to certain kinds of attacks. I'm not terribly knowledgeable of the DF raw format, so I'll leave coming up with a concrete example to others, but a creature's throat might be tagged to show that it is vulnerable to slitting. Perhaps armor raws could have the same sort of thing, so that eye slits and other potentially vulnerable features would be identified automatically.

This sort of system would allow a lot of vulnerabilities to be tagged on high level templates (all throats would have the same vulnerability to slitting, without Toady or a modder needing to tag it on each creature). It would also allow crazy creature types to have unusual vulnerabilities (e.g. blobs don't have throats, but their guts might spill out if their outer skin is punctured).

In case there's anyone who hasn't read The Hobbit, I'll put the last bit of my post in spoiler tags (and if you haven't, you should go buy a copy and read it).

Before you go too far in simplifying the material values, you may want to think about the fact that many materials can be manufactured with non-uniform properties. Hammering on most metals hardens them, for example.

A skilled craftsdwarf is likely to use the full range of material properties an material is capable of to give each part of an item the best qualities possible. A case hardened steel axe head, for example, would have a hard cutting edge but an inner core that is softer and resists shattering when the axe hits something.

I think the ideas that I've heard here so far can be split out into three pieces which would be semi-independent:

Use wheelbarrows to speed up the moving of heavy bins.
This is the idea described in fmunoz's OP. When hauling a bin to or from the trade depot, a dwarf would fetch a wheelbarrow if the weight of the bin would slow them down by a significant amount (hopefully they'd be smart enough to consider how long it will take to get the wheelbarrow as part of this calculation). This idea would not effect jobs that don't already involve hauling bins, and it could be coded independently of the other two.

Use a bin (or some other container) to gather several items at once when performing a job that requires multiple ingredients.
This is the idea that praguepride brought up.  In this situation, a dwarf performing a job that requires several items (like the metal and charcoal bars needed to forge plate mail) would grab a bin or other container and use it to carry all of the required items in a single trip. Some new logic for how jobs claim materials might be needed for this to work well, but I don't think a massive jobs rewrite would be required.  The hauling of loose items to stockpiles would not be effected by this simple version of hauling multiple items, since stockpiles create a separate hauling job for each one. This idea can take advantage of the wheelbarrow idea above, but it doesn't require it. If wheelbarrows are considered containers themselves, they might be usable in place of bins in this idea though.

Change tasks that create many independent hauling jobs to instead create a smaller number of jobs that each require the hauling of several items.
This gets scarier than the other ideas, as choosing how to combine multiple jobs into one can be tricky (this is I think what Toady One is referring to when he says hauling changes will be hard). I think the simplest form of this idea would effect only stockpiles and perhaps large construction projects. Designating the construction of a 5x5 block floor might create 5 jobs each requiring five blocks, rather than 25 independent jobs. Creating a 10x10 wood stockpile could create 25 jobs, each requiring the collection of 4 logs (hopefully four that are close to one another). The exact number of items to group into a single job could be determined in lots of different ways (and the details of the algorithm might be something that gets adjusted over several releases). This idea would enable the bin usage from the second idea above to be used when filling stockpiles and building megaprojects. Indeed, the code for this idea would probably require the bin one to be written first.

Here's what I don't get.  The suggestion is to add in something that adds a new layer of complexity to skills, but in a way that is subtle enough that people can just keep doing what they do now (i.e., set a dwarf to just do carpentry and leave it at that).  So what, precisely, is the point of it aside from eating up programming time?

I find myself pretty firmly in the more camp that says more complexity and realism is better. I understand that gameplay is critical to making the game fun, but a lot of the DF asthetic comes from the excessive amount of detail in the game (such as the number of different stones and types of wood).

I hope that as Toady One improves the interfaces, automation and overall speed of the game, he'll be able to add more items to the game to reflect the complex "reality" of a high-fantasy medieval society like the Dwarves have, without making the game harder for newbies (at least not harder than it already is).

The products that a cooper makes -- casks of various sizes (including barrels) and buckets -- all are constructed from staves and hoops. If the current game's hauling problems are resolved, I'd love for those to be separate items that would be made and used in the construction of a barrel.  So the construction of a barrel might work like this:

Tree => chopped down by a woodcutter => Logs
Log => cut at a sawmill or saw pit => many staves

(separately)
Mine wall => dug by miner => Ore
Ore => smelted at furnace => Metal Bars
Metal Bar => forged by smith => Barrel hoops

Staves + Hoop => constructed by cooper => Barrel or Bucket

Of course this series of "reactions" could be done by a carpenter rather than having a separate skill for coopers.  I don't have a strong opinion on adding the skill, or the need for skill synergies if we did.

Quote

Ridicules, more knowledge and sophistication ALWAYS results in more division of labor.  That's why their are hundred of types of medical specialists today compared to medieval society having only Surgeons, Dentists and Blood-letters.  Again if you don't want more skills that's one thing but don't made ridicules assertions in the guise of realism.

You are the only one arguing for realism. You.

Also, division of labor is the practice of splitting up multiple tasks in the creation of a single object, such as having a multitude of laborers each creating different parts of a gun. The goal of division of labor is to have multiple workers that are easier to train and can be paid less than a single worker who does all of these things by himself, as well as speeding up the process by having all of the laborers ready to work their particular task as soon as the task needs doing.

Loyal, I think you have one thing right, that most of the arguments going on in this thread are at their heart about the appropriate level of realism that should be in the game. I tend to think that more realism is better, but I can appreciate that you have concerns about the gameplay impact of proposed changes. Since nobody posting here has the power to make Toady One do our bidding, I don't think you should worry too much, as he's usually been open about seeking a balance between realism and simplicity.

That said, you're not accurately summarizing the Wikipedia page you linked in the quote above. While division of labor does get applied to assembly lines and similar splitting up of complex tasks, it also applies to specialization of skills within communities of different sizes. It's that sense that I think Impaler's idea should be though of. As a fortress gets more population, it makes sense for more of the dwarves to have narrowly specialized skills at which they are experts. Here's a quote from the article, attributed to Xenophon in the fourth century BC that makes just this point (emphasis added):

Just as the various trades are most highly developed in large cities, in the same way food at the palace is prepared in a far superior manner. In small towns the same man makes couches, doors, ploughs and tables, and often he even builds houses, and still he is thankful if only he can find enough work to support himself. And it is impossible for a man of many trades to do all of them well. In large cities, however, because many make demands on each trade, one alone is enough to support a man, and often less than one: for instance one man makes shoes for men, another for women, there are places even where one man earns a living just by mending shoes, another by cutting them out, another just by sewing the uppers together, while there is another who performs none of these operations but assembles the parts, Of necessity, he who pursues a very specialised task will do it best. (Book VIII, ch, ii, 4[]-6, cited in The Ancient Economy by M. I. Finley. Penguin books 1992, p 135.)

But, lets leave the question of how many skills there should be aside for now and presuppose a willingness to add a bit more complexity in exchange for more realism.

I think Impaler's idea has some close parallels in the the recent thread on porcelain and high-temperature kilns, as both discussed how there are several different ways of doing the same general thing (smithing or pottery) at different temperatures with different quality results. It would be interesting to work out what temperatures (and processes to achieve them) were required for all of the various metal smelting and forging tasks, glass making and blowing, and for ceramic firing and glazing. We could compile all that into a master list that Toady One can use to inform his game design choices going forward. Before I saw this thread I was thinking of positing something about that in my thread about tools. If there's interest I think I'll make a new thread for it instead.

Heating an object to a high temperatures in a controlled way is quite difficult, and it seems like a really good place for Toady to introduce a "tech curve" if he wants to. Smelting steel and firing porcelain are very challenging tasks that require significant infrastructure (a large supply of fuel (charcoal), availability of firebrick and other refractories, bellows, highly skilled operators, etc), so it would make sense for them to be impractical in a small, young fort.  Your first dwarves will instead start out drying mud-bricks in the sun and hammering out copper axeheads next to a campfire. As the fort grows, dwarves can begin using more challenging materials and techniques and gradually the full dwarven economy will build it self up.

Plumb-bob and spirit level for masons and architects, tweezers for strand extractors, whisker for cooks, and of course an abacus for the hoardmaster.

Spirit levels and cooking whisks are both too modern to fit in with DF technology (being invented in the 17th and 19th centuries, respectively). The rest of these ideas are good and I've added them to the list.

The doctor traditionally has lots of special tools.
Astrologers, astronomers and scouts could use telescopes.
Entertainers need tools too (face paint, stilts, masks, etc.)

Telescopes were invented in the early 17th century, so they're out of our technology window.  As for medical equipment and entertainment gear, I think I'll hold off on them until we see how those jobs get added to the game before adding them.

Jig for Carpentry, Masonry and Mechanic (wood or metal)

That's a good idea, and I've added Jigs to the wood- and stone-working sections (mechanics include them by reference)

.

Picking berries and roots doesn't really use sickles and scythes

No, they wouldn't be necessary for all plant gathering jobs, but I think they'd come in very handy when harvesting Longland Grass and Rope Reed and possibly for any of the other "vine" or "weed" plants. I don't know if there could be a way for dwarves to only harvest the items they have appropriate tools for, but that would be the best solution.

Shovels will be useful if/when snow starts to actually act like snow. You don't clear snow very well with picks and axes .

I'll add shovels to the cleaning section.  I imagine that they'll also be needed in that role if animals ever start producing waste products (since livestock tends to hang out in the legendary dining rooms).

New category, admittedly pretty pie-in-the-sky right now:

Climbing

• Climbing harness. Don't know how much they had in the way of this in the 1400's, but since the dwarves are such a stone-adapted race, I think one might make the point that they'd be ahead of their time when it comes to rock climbing.
• Belaying gear. Basically a mechanism that's attached to your harness and which the rope runs through in such a way that you can use it to generate friction by holding the rope in a certain way.
• "Climbing picks" for climbing on ice.
• Some sort of tools for placing safety measures as you climb?

I think from a manufacturing technology standpoint, pitons, crampons and ice axes would all be ok, but I don't think that the techniques for using those tools were developed prior to 1400 (or even very close to that date). While a few mountains were summited in the middle ages (such as Rochemelon in the Italian Alps, which was climbed in 1358), very little mountaineering was done prior to the 18th century. Specialized climbing harnesses are certainly anachronistic, though dwarves could probably tie a basic harness out of ropes if they are given the ability to perform technical climbs in the future. I think for now I'll leave the climbing tools out of the list, since dwarves do not yet climb (and while they also don't use plates or utensils, they do at least eat).

I think there should be many more tools for dwarves to use in DF. This is not a new idea.  There have been numerous other threads about tools for use in workshops or to be carried by various professional dwarves and used as improvised weapons.  Here are some of the more interesting ones I've found in my searching (though there are many more). A very recent one is here.

I would like for this thread to be a place we can all brainstorm what different tools could be useful for various Dwarf or Adventurer mode jobs, and how they would be made (especially what materials would be allowed). I'd rather we not spend time arguing about whether an expanded set of tools would add fun complexity or annoying micromanagement to Dwarf mode, or about what tools are important enough to include.  Lets add everying that fits within the DF technology base (which is more or less what was available around 1400 in Europe). I've included some things that are more likely to be constructions, but which are sufficiently "tool-like" (e.g. they do the same job as a hand tool, just faster or better in some way).

To save a lot of redundant typing, any tool without materials listed next to it below should be assumed to be made with metal and wood parts (e.g. a metal head and a wooden handle) at a blacksmith's shop. Items with a * require a metal that can hold an edge. Bronze is probably the softest material that would be good for those, though perhaps low quality versions could be made with copper or even stone blades. I've ordered the list in the same order that dwarven professions are shown in the unit list (as listed here in dwarffortresswiki).


Miner
  Pick*
  Mattock*
  Shovel (can have a wooden head)
  Hand-drilling bit (iron or steel) or drill-wedges (wood)
  Sledge hammer
  Geologist's hammer

Woodworkers
  Hand axe* or hatchet
  Axe*
  Adze*
  Drawknife*
  Hand saw*
  Two-man (two-dwarf?) saw*
  Saw mill (a construction rather than a tool, perhaps as described here)
  Wood carving knife* or Utility knife
  Wood chisels* and Gouges
  Mallet (can have a wooden head)
  Drill*
  Claw hammer
  Splitting maul*
  Wedges (metal or wood)
  Sledgehammer
  Jig (wood, metal or stone, suggested by Impaler[WrG])
  File (metal, suggested for this trade by Impaler[WrG])
  Vice (wood or metal, suggested by Impaler[WrG])
  Square (wood or metal, suggested by Impaler[WrG])

Stoneworkers
  Stone chisel*
  Mallet (can have a wooden head)
  Stonemason's hammer
  Trowel (for spreading mortar and plaster if they are added to the game)
  Plumb-bob (stone or metal, plus a rope, suggested by Silverionmox)
  Jig (wood, metal or stone, suggested by Impaler[WrG])
  Square (wood or metal, suggested by Impaler[WrG])

Rangers
  Weapons of various sorts (projectile weapons and spears especially)
  Animal collar (can be leather, cloth or metal)

Metalsmiths
  Anvils (iron)
  Tongs and Pliers
  Forging hammer
  Sledge hammer
  Peening hammer
  Trip hammer (a construction, rather than exactly a tool, this would require power from a wind or water mill)
  Bellows (leather)
  Metalworking chisel* (the tool should be made of metal harder than the item being worked on)
  Coin dies (iron or steel)
  Swage block (metal)
  Draw plate (metal)
  Crucibles (made of refactory clay, if such ceramics are added)
  Sand casts (sand, water)
  Hacksaw*
  Files and Rasps (metal)
  Grindstone or Whetstone (especially hard types of stone)
  Molds (soft stone or plaster, based on a suggestion by Andeerz)
 
Jeweler
  Grinding wheel or Lap (iron, steel, hard stone, or diamond)

Bone carver
  Bone saw*
  Bone carving knife*
  Grinding wheel (stone or metal)
 
Clothier
  Scissors* or Shears
  Utility knife*
  Measuring tape (cloth or leather)
  Needles (bone or metal)
 
Glassmaker
  Blowpipe (not the weapon, a tool for glassblowing, made of metal)
  Pontil AKA Ponty (a metal rod)
  Shears (of any metal, as they don't need to be very sharp compared to other industries)
  Tongs
 
Leatherworker
  Shears*
  Punches and Stamps
  Mallet (leather, wood or metal)
  Heavy needles (metal, maybe bone)

Stone crafter
  Stone chisel*
  Files and Rasps
 
Weaver
  Scissors* or Shears
 
Wood crafter
  Any carpentry tools
 
Strand extractor
  Tweezers (metal, suggested by Silverionmox)

Fish cleaner
  Various knives*
 
Fish dissector
  Tweezers (metal, suggested for this trade by Andeerz)
  Knife* or scalpel (suggested by Andereerz)
 
Fisherdwarf
  Fishing spear (wood, bone or metal head, wooden shaft)
  Fishing rod (wood)
  Fishing line (silk?)
  Fishing hooks (metal or bone)
  Nets (cloth or maybe leather)
  Gaff
 
Brewer
  Brewing kettle (copper or other corrosion resistant metal)
  Wine press (wood and a mechanism, though perhaps this should be part of the workshop)
  Ladle and other stirring implements (metal or wood)
 
Butcher
  Cleaver*
  Various other sorts of knives*
 
Cheese maker
  Cheesecloth (cloth, obviously)
  Knife*
 
Cook
  Chef's knife*
  Lots of other knives*
  Pots and Pans (coper or other heat-conducting, non-toxic metal, or ceramics)
 
Dyer
  Ladle and stirring implements (metal or wood)
  Mortar and Pestle (stone)
 
Grower
  Hoe
  Mattock*
  Plow* (metal cutting blade, wood construction, leather or rope for straps to a draft animal)
  Rake (can be all wood)
  Shovel (can be all wood)
  Trowel (can be all wood)
  Pitchfork (can be all wood)
  Sickle*
  Scythe*
 
Herbalist
  Sickle*
  Scythe*
 
Lye maker, Milker, Miller, Potash maker, Soaper
  Nothing?

Tanner
  Knives* or scraping tools
 
Thresher
  Flail (wood or metal)
  Press (for sweet pods and other liquid plant extracts, wood and a mechanism)
 
Wood burner
  Axe*
  Shovel (can be all wood)
  Splitting maul*
  Wedges (metal or wood)
  Sledgehammer
 
Mechanic
  Wrench
  Pliers
  Calipers (wood or metal, suggested by Andeerz)
  Other metal, wood or stonecrafting tools

Pump operator
  Nothing?
 
Siege engineer
  Carpenter's hammer
 
Siege operator
  Wedges or shims (made of any reasonable material)
  Crowbar
  Stonemason's hammer (for rounding off catapult ammo)

Administrators and architects
  Pen or quills (metal or feathers)
  Abacus (wood, bone or metal, suggested by Silverionmox)
 
Cleaning tools
  Broom (wood and straw)
  Mop (wood and cloth)
  Shovel (for Snow or other messes, can be all wood, suggested for snow by Safe-Keeper)
 
Personal hygiene tools
  Scissors*
  Razor*
  Comb (bone, metal, or certain kinds of stone)
  Brush (wood or bone with plant fiber or animal hair bristles)
 
Food service tools
  Plates, bowls, mugs, goblets, wineskins (ceramic, wood, stone, metal, or leather)
  Spoons and Forks (wood, stone, or metal)
  Carving knife*



So, what have I missed?