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Messages - Symmetry

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1
Hi, just wanted to say how much I'm missing this tool in the steam version and I hope you'll be able to work on updating it to the new dfhack whenever that becomes available.
It's better than therapist for me, it's nice to have this management inside the game.

And if you don't have time to update it, thanks for making it in the first place.  it's been great

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DF General Discussion / Re: Future of the Fortress
« on: March 16, 2022, 07:59:33 am »
Thank you for the answers, Toady!

And thanks to Crabman for thinking ahead wrt modding!

Python an Lua are both script languages, which means they can be used to write plugin scripts. I don't think they're particularly good for defining data, though (although Lua is better than C in that regard, which doesn't say much).

Having modded with Lua before, I agree with this.  Lua's greatest strength for modding is the ability to re-arrange function calls and shuffle data with little to no knowledge of what other mods may do.  This would require DF to be partially rewritten and exposed in Lua.

Some of Lua's shortcoming wrt data are, to quote a friend:  no integer type, coercion between strings and numbers, "tables" being one kind of data structure for both sequences and key/value associations (and mixtures of both)

For what it's worth, lua was originally a data definition language and the scripting was added later. 
It's better to think of lua supporting integers up to the max int expressible in the mantissa of a float, rather than it not supporting integers.

I think it's a great data definition language, and the addition fo full scripting allows you to define data with code to generate the data in cases where that makes sense.
The biggest problem with it is memory usage, you have to load the entire script into memory and then execute it to populate the lua tables with the data definition.  So it takes ~2x memory it should need to.
naive solutions using other formats can have the same issue but are more easily solved.
This shouldn't be an issue for DF though as the memory requirements are tiny compared to the gigantic map.  It can cause problems in some embedded environments though.

3
If you enjoy the combat of Dwarf Fortress, the 3rd John Wick movie has a lot of that same style:

It also really brings home the nervous breakdown that is inevitable once you lose a loved pet.

4
DF General Discussion / Re: *We need your help with game ending stress*
« on: February 13, 2020, 02:55:00 pm »
It's confusing because many "haggard" dwarves will have no bad thoughts in the top block except unmet needs.
I don't doubt Loci's result but it just raises more questions than it answers to me.

5
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Stress & Pysche: 44.11+
« on: February 13, 2020, 02:50:52 pm »
FantasticDwarf, I understand the theory but when I implement these 1 wide strips of tavern I get almost 0 progress in friendships still.
There are a very few non starting 7 dwarves with 2 or 3 friends after years of this.

Is there anything else to it?  Am I expecting too much progress?

6
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: How to see the conditions of the dwarfs?
« on: February 09, 2020, 11:38:53 am »
Ah , yes that's it! ..a Df hack addition was it.
I read that the LPN pack is not there ready for the latest DF , because Df hack is delayed by some programming issues.

You can sort by stress in DwarfTherapist, but weirdly it seems to not be an issue any more.
I might just be having trouble lasting long enough for it to show up as a problem, or it might have been changed.
I'm having Fun starting near 3 towers so my forts don't last too long but have a lot of stressful situations.  I'd expect to see dwarves a bit more upset than they are.

7
DF General Discussion / Re: PeridexisErrant's DF Starter Pack
« on: February 05, 2020, 01:38:01 pm »
The second biggest thing is moving construction materials to the top of the list after one use, so you can build lots of walls out of the same material.

The third is kloker which is better that DwarfTherapist in a lot of ways
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=169329.0

8
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Did they fix the relationship bugs?
« on: February 03, 2020, 06:13:48 pm »
You're right, their social skills do seem to improve more.
Right now it's a bit of a blessing it doesn't pregress to friendship, otherwise they might get married and have to play horsey with the kids *for the rest of their life*

9
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Did they fix the relationship bugs?
« on: February 03, 2020, 05:46:56 pm »
I have played and I see no difference in relationship making, I see nothing but passing acquaintance after years of a 1 wide table/chair/tavern/chair/table setup.  Like before.

10
DF General Discussion / Re: *We need your help with game ending stress*
« on: February 01, 2020, 03:29:25 pm »
saying of 47.01, the new intermingling of values from migration to be less straightly set in stone does add complexity to dealing with needs but things are much more managable now. Here's to more refinement with 47.02 onwards.

Superficially it's even better than that.  I have dwarves who worship 8 gods and they've managed to do the top 3 already with just a single all purpose temple and relatively little downtime.
I'm playing a bit differently without dfhack etc. and I only have this one temple, I usually make one per god, but still it's interesting.

11
DF General Discussion / Re: *We need your help to save the noobs!*
« on: January 30, 2020, 05:30:37 pm »
I will throw some thoughts in

* the werebeast visiting the tavern are much more terrifying than attacking ones, and temples etc. default to allowing everybody so it's really easy to do.

* job cancellation spam is a newbie killer.  It has lodas of different causes, doesn't help you see how to stop it, and hides real messages you need as a new player.

* the game difficulty is very sensitive to map conditions you can't know before embarking, evil clouds, rain, wood, fresh water.  The location choice + embark screen is like rpg character creation, the new player has absolutely no idea what anything means and will need a lot of guidance or a default safe option.

* I do think bugfixes are more important than a tutorial but I've thought that for a long time and the team haven't :)

12
DF General Discussion / Re: *We need your help with game ending stress*
« on: January 30, 2020, 05:10:46 pm »
I'm very late but I had some things to add that I didn't feel were mentioned.

Looking here on the wiki we can see the complete list of emotions generated and their effect on stress https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Emotion
If the game is going to colour code them the thing that makes most sense is to colour code by strength of effect on stress.  If there's a pattern at the moment I can't see it.
Knowing what affects stress is one of the ways experts (who know this page on the wiki) can keep things under control.


Second, the stress system just keeps linearly adding up forever.  At the end of the second year anyone with less than 0 stress is going to be fine (if you keep them out of the rain etc.) but anyone above 0 is dead.
They are doomed.  There is no hope for them.  At some point they will go mad and it's just a question of how long it takes for the maths to hit 10000 and how many others they take with them.
I would expect dwarves to reach some kind of stress equilibrium, where more stress has less effect and vice versa for happiness.  This can't happen with the current system and is why the anxiety and dealing with stress personality entries are so important, and why the personality change from them is so devastating.
Personally I think the mood change from the rain thoughts is actually ok, it's the mathematically certain madness that results from these depressive personalities that breaks it.

There are two ways a dwarf mitigates stress when it gets bad, shouting at a mayor, tantrums.  Any other mitigation can happen at any time and is under player control.
So if a dwarf is stressed they will take these activities to cheer up, but none of them have a strong enough affect to actually help anything.  I've never seen them do a thing. 
Worse they just mean the dwarf spends forever running to the mayor and never takes care of their other needs.
So there's an attempt at auto balancing stress when the dwarf is very stressed but it doesn't seem to be doing nearly enough to offset the linear steady decrease over time when the daily / weekly adjustment is unbalanced.

I'm suggesting something like, at 5000 stress more stress counts for half and stress reduction count normal.  There will be some number here that balances stressed dwarves into a kind of annoying limbo where they can tantrum a bit, shout at the mayor, stumble obliviously now and then, but not be literally doomed.  There's still a game in there, not certain fortress destruction.


Finally, I hope the original post by ThreeToe isn't actually what we want...
It's hard to know how bad it is to lose 3 haulers to madness from a goblin clean up because I don't know how many there are or how long after the cleanup he waited but with 200 haul jobs in a death zone and 50 dwarves doing it I would expect to see 10 dwarves go mad over a few years.
In practice you don't let your "real" dwarves haul to keep them away from the death zones.  And also you have to keep the haul path for the corpses completely separate to the main fort so they don't see them.  At the moment the personality change consequences of seeing a corpse are too risky to let a legendary anywhere near them.
This makes using warriors quite risky.


The way the really bad personalities have such a strong effect has been mentioned by others but I wanted to repeat it.  It outweighs everything.
The way friendship/marriage is broken is only so important for stress because of the strength of these bad personality changes and how children is the best (repeatable!) way to get a positive personality change.
The second god not being worshipped only becomes important because of these super sad dwarves who can't be allowed a single unhappy thought.

For what it's worth I managed stress ok in my last fort six months ago, I lost a few soldiers after a fight and a couple of very depressed ones due to personality changes.
I stopped playing because I couldn't make more children without too much bedroom micro, but the stress management wasn't fun either.

13
Food stored in dorfs' rooms are not hauled to the refuse stockpile as they're marked as owned.

dfhack has a periodic fix for this when run through LNP by default.

14
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Stress & Pysche: 44.11+
« on: May 19, 2019, 09:00:12 am »
oh yeah, this stuff is maddening to test.  Dead ends, false leads and better approaches are inevitable.
I remember a suggestion that social skill level had an impact on this, I'll try giving everyone legendary social skills and see if it affects anything.

15
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Stress & Pysche: 44.11+
« on: May 19, 2019, 03:41:15 am »
There's a lot of talk further up in the thread about furniture distracting dwarves from making friends, as it takes time to look at it.
Was this wrong? Or are these "strip" designs still better even so?

I find my dwarves just stand around reciting poetry and stories to each other :(
I can't find a good way to make them rank up friendship at all, beyond locking two of them in a tiny room.
Do we know the poetry stuff definitely gets in the way of relationship ranking?  Is there a way to reduce it?
Even in my 3x3 no books library dwarves still tell stories, I can't see friendship going up at all.

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