Bay 12 Games Forum

As for the pathing resolution issue, what if each tick in Fortress Time, instead of taking 72 ticks of Adventure Mode Time, took one fourth to one eighth of that (so, 18 to 9 seconds per tick)?

Fortress Mode would take 4 to 8 times longer (respectively... and in terms of GAME TIME and NOT necessarily YOUR TIME) than it does now, but it would (I think) get to the right amount of time resolution needed to make my suggestion work without losing too much pathing resolution (well... this is sort of subjective).  My suggestion would still be open to exploit, but I have a feeling this would mitigate exploitation, since I cannot imagine many actions of huge impact taking less than nine seconds... except for a few contrived examples I can think of... but, meh... 

I think this is just a makeshift solution, creating another problem.
Namely, playing a fort for several in-game years would take way too long.

So to add to the discussion : How about instead, we speed up fortress time even more, such that one tick of fast-time skips ahead an entire day.

This would, of course, require completely new ways of abstracting what happens during a day.
However, it would also be so far removed from the slow adventure-time,
that problems of the two not matching up with each other  would most likely disappear within the abstraction. 
Also, this fast-time wouldn't be expected to run with high fps, ~10 sec per tick/day should be acceptable. 

Let me give some examples:

1. Food and drink: Instead of simulating breaks and meals, the amount of food and drink consumed in a day is simply removed from stockpiles.

2. Jobs: Instead of doing jobs sequentially one by one, the abstraction looks at how much energy a job takes.
A dwarf's energy depends on his stats (a enduring dwarf can work 10 hours, while others work 8 on average)
and how much energy a job takes depends on his skills (the amount and quality of the work he can do in a given time depends on his skill in the particular profession).
From there, jobs are assigned by priority to dwarfs until either none are left or all dwarfs are out of energy.

2a.Hauling: For Hauling the energy cost is the product of weight and distance, which would still be computed via path-finding.
However, this mode would allow quite some optimizations.
For example, if a field is harvested in a day, the distance to the stockpile is only computed once and used for each hauled produce.
The same for input/output of workshops and transfers between stockpiles.

3.Walking: For the time taken walking between destinations aside from hauling,
the abstraction could generalise that a dwarf walks an average amount in a day depending on the fort's size.
For this a number of key routes can be taken (great hall <->bedrooms, food stocks, workshops, fields) and averaged.
Possibly also adjusted by profession, taking long walks into the mines into account.

4.Combat: For events involving combat, it depends on how your dwarfs are involved.
Uninvolved, hidden or training combat can be abstracted as just the outcome.
If a dwarf is involved, a short fight (e.g. a brawl or with a thief/snatcher) is simulated in the usual detail without dropping out of fast-time.

4a.Ambushes: An ambush would compute a path into the fort and
their chance to be discovered depends on placement of traps, guards, patrol routes and how frequently the area is visited by inhabitants (this is taken from the hauling and walking abstraction).
If discovered, there is the option to let the player issue orders (who engages? directly or rally and prepare first? Add civilians to the fight?) or do it automatically.
Then the fight is then simulated in the usual detail.

4b.Sieges: An impending invasion would force you into slow-mode at the beginning of a day, preventing fast-mode until the siege is over.
 
5. Special events such as strange moods, amok runs, visitors/merchants and so on would give a prompt.
The options would be to continue fast-mode, drop into slow mode at the end of the current tick
or give some immediate orders from within fast mode, e.g trading orders.



 

There are quite a few suggestions about books and learning skills.
Personnally, I think slabs would work very well for something like this.

For example,

After an artifact is created, the event and the process are documented on a slab.
If placed in a statue garden, admiring the slab gives bonus experience to dwarfs with appropriate skill.

The story/depiction of a heroic duel between swordfighters raises sword skill.

The story of a victorious battle motivates soldiers raising their courage stat.

The basics of  skills are studied by idle dwarf children working like a school.
This could initially require some dwarf to be present with a minimum in the appropriate skill or be directly bought from traders.   

 

I agree that the gap between steel and candy could use something in between.
I've seen at least one mod that does exactly that.

An alternative, I think, could be platinum and aluminum.
Platinum is already best choice for blunt weapons.
For aluminum, there exist alloys supposedly as strong as steel, but much lighter (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duralumin), which could make excellent armor.

Lastly, introducing candy alloys with lower metals could fill the gap.

 

I like the idea, but I think there are a few problems with it.

First, "skillbooks" as in "Manual of Arms: Axes"  seem a bit too gamey to fit DF.

I would suggest instead that dwarfs can write something like a diary listing some or all of the things they've done.
For example, a crafter writes about how he made his masterworks/legendary, while a soldier writes about his experiances in training/combat.
When the author dies/retires, another dwarf can read the biography and passively gain experience as if he himself had done what is described in the book.
Of course, the gain and speed would have to be scaled approprietely with some cap or diminishing return from learning from second hand experience.

Thereby, a book written by a master carpenter would essentially become a carpentry skillbook, but at the same time it is a procedurally generated object with a clear origin in the world.
Creation and use of such books should have strict requirements such as the availability of paper and ink, the ability to read/write, free time and a proper place like a library.
As a bonus, this would lessen the blow if one of your crafters dies, as his successor can catch up faster and even continue writing the book.

Second, I have two problems with teaching in DF: Implementation and anachronisms.
As it is implemented, getting teaching to work is really frustrating.
How would you get teacher and students to be at the same place at the same time, when you can't even get your broker reliably to the trade depot.
This is a serious problem given the way time is abstracted in fortress mode.

Next, having teachers teach to a class is really uncommen for the period DF is based on, especially teaching specialised skills.
Having "apprentices" learn from watching another dwarf work and reading books in self-study fits better into the time period and implemetation of DF.

The only skill taught by a teacher (if at all) should be reading and writing to children and the occasional illiterate.



 

 

I like the idea.
Although I think it should be simply a wall of updown stairs.
The material should be light and cheap and building it significantly faster than normal stairs.
For example have a log give enough scaffolding material to fill four tiles to reduce hauling.

There should, however, also be some drawback. For example you cant use it to make floors or walls and it should not support structures besides more scaffolding.
Lastly moving through scaffolding should be slow so people don't use it instead of actual stairs in other cases.

Actually let me correct you.

The game recognizes value and that is what sets how many immigrants you can have.

If you made your fortress entirely out of gold you would have as much more immigrants then you would one that was only made of stone.

Yes, I know. My point is that this metric is very hard to control.
A lot of things can make your fort more valuable than you would like or even makes sense.
Cooked food has too many multipliers, Steel is as valuable as gold, the value of engravings shouldn't interest attackers and your first artifact can easily double your fort's value.

Part of my suggestion is to use the value of the treasure hoard instead, where you can directly control how much and how fast the value increases.

From RP perspective it should make sense to have the hoard as the direct measure of a fort's success because it is wealth the fort can afford to keep and protect instead of selling to caravans or being used up such as food or clothes.
Of course, food/alcohol supplies and architecture can be additional factors, but should then be circumstantial, e.g, immigrants fleeing from a site with food shortage are more likely to come to your fort if you have a surplus of food.


 

As a possible downside, a sludges life span could be reasonably  short.
For example, they could "dry out" over time, i.e., they become progressively slower and harder over time until they eventually turn into a solid statue.
Unable to drink a sludge would be incapable of stopping this process and forced to slowly suffer his demise.

Short summary:
A Treasure hoard is a place, where wealth is stored.
Fortress dwarfs expect a Treasure hoard's value to increase over time and to be able to visit during breaks.
The Treasure hoard's value attracts immigrants and attackers to the fortress.
The hoard is guarded by the fortress guard and even dwarfs try to steal from it.


Dwarfish Philosophy
Just as alcohol is necessary to get a dwarf through the day, the pursuit of wealth is a central part of Dwarfish Philosophy.
Nothing represents this concept more to a dwarf than a big pile of gold. The bigger the better!
However in the world of Dwarf Fortress wealth attracts anything from kobolds and goblins to dragons, while the average dwarf loses fights even against carp.
As such the chances for an individual dwarf to maintain a private treasure is near impossible, although of course some adventurers try anyway.
Hence, dwarfs instead build fortresses around communal treasure hoards with the purpose to protect their shared wealth as well as to further increase it.
Inside the fortress every dwarf is allowed to visit and expects the value of the treasure to increase since his last visit.
Even liaisons visit the treasure as the dwarfs are also proud to show off their wealth. This also announced the wealth of the fortress to the world.
As fortress overseer it is the player's duty to organize, increase and protect the hoard.


What is treasure?
Treasure can be anything of value. What counts as treasure could even change over time.
Some possible criteria are:

1. Silver, gold and rare gems:
 Silver, gold and rare gems as well as items made of these materials  always count as treasure.

2. Preferences:
The preferences of the currently highest noble or an average of the preference of all dwarfs determines what is a treasure.
For example if several dwarfs like a microline and tables, even microline tables are a treasure.

3. Fortress age:
In a young struggling fortress even low-quality items made of cheap materials can be used as treasure.
However over time the requirements on value and quality would increase.

4. No artifacts:
Artifacts should not count as treasure as they are too valuable compared to everything else.
Furthermore in the future, artifacts will hopefully get beneficial properties of their own that would be wasted
if they are simply stuck in the hoard.


What is the hoard?
The actual implementation is flexible, but should fulfill the following criteria:
Its value is the sum of the value of the items and furniture inside that are considered treasures.
Treasures can be added via designation similar to the way items are marked for trade.
Treasure placed there cannot be traded and removing something should not be allowed or have a negative effect,
for example an unhappy thought if a dwarf notices a missing item.
If an item loses its treasure status, it is again handled as any other item lying around outside a stockpile.
It has to be accessible by fortress dwarfs and liaisons.

A slight variation of the trade depot could be implemented quickly, while a room with  chests for items and erected furniture would be more visually striking.

 
Expected value and Reputation
The wealth contained in the hoard should reflect the amount of work done in the fortress.
While dwarfs are not paid for their work directly, each of them expects their contribution to have a proportional impact.
Besides the obvious crafting professions, all jobs even haulers and soldiers count towards the expected value.
Nobles on the other hand would expect a certain value even without contributing or even their very own treasure.
The expected value is then the sum of expectations of each living dwarf.

The difference between the expected value and the actual value stored in the hoard influences the reputation of the fortress and the motivation of its inhabitants.
If the value is lower, immigration slows down or even stops while the dwarfs work slower as they lose motivation if they think their work does not accomplish enough.
If the value is significantly higher than expected, they gain a motivation boost and work and fight harder,
but their expected value increases faster and more dwarfs migrate to the fortress until the difference catches up.


Invasions
As before the wealth of the fortress attracts thieves and invaders. But now they have an actual goal inside the fortress besides murdering all your dwarfs.
What they do once they reach it depends on the type of invader.
Goblins for example would grab a piece of the treasure and try to flee.
If an invasion is successful, the invaders could plunder the hoard and leave, while ignoring the remaining fortress population.
A Dragon on the other hand could decide to make it his home and kill anyone trying to enter (e.g. Smaug from the Hobbit).
Others such as undead ignore it and continue to go after the living.


Theft and Fortress Guard
From time to time even a fortress dwarf might try to steal some treasure.
This can be influenced by several circumstances:
1. A dwarf that is simply greedy or a bored thrill seeker is more likely to steal something.
2. If an item in the treasure matches his preferences he is more likely to steal it.
3. Unhappy dwarfs are also more likely to steal.
4. It could be a type of mood.
5. The presence of guards deters dwarfs from theft.

The captain of the guard and his squad are automatically stationed around the treasure hoard.
If a theft is successful, the thief gains a significant bonus to his happiness.
If the theft is later on noticed, an investigation starts and the sheriff/captain of the guard can be ordered to search for the thief.

This could even be used to prevent a tantrum by letting unhappy dwarfs first steal something and then dismissing the investigation or giving them only light punishment.
However, as mentioned before items going missing should have some negative effect on the rest of the fortress.

[...]The likelyhood of an objects disappearance being noticed is directly related to its relative value when compared to the rest of the treasure hoard. It can also be tied into whether it is a masterpiece (the dwarf who made the masterpiece is more likely to notice one of them missing), and if it is a masterpiece should give the creator a negative thought similar to the current one, except that if the item is found (say, if another dwarf stole it) they get a happiness BOOST.

Optional Feature
Lastly, the treasure hoard should be optional to a working fortress.
Just like alcohol, not fulfilling the expectations of your dwarfs could possibly slow them down or prevent promotion of the fortress.
However, the fortress should still continue to function such that players who for example focus on mega projects can ignore this feature.     


Purpose
I am suggesting this feature as I think that it could solve several problems of the current fortress mode.

1. Giving a reason to create wealth.
  Currently the only use for valuable items is to sell them to visiting caravans, which can already be bought empty of anything useful rather easily with old clothes and weapons.
  Even increasing the cost and usefulness of caravan items, only delays this. This feature would give a permanent use to wealth and encourage digging deeper for more valuable resources.

2. Allows regulating immigration speed and severity of attacks.
  Another annoyance is that immigration and attacks depend on the fortress wealth as a whole which is rather difficult to control.
  This feature would allow players to regulate them to rates with which they are comfortable.

3. Gives invaders and thieves an explicit target inside your fortress.
  Currently a successful goblin invasion most likely means the end for the fortress. With this feature a fortress could eventually recover from ambushes and invasions.

4. Introduces crimes for Fortress Guard to prevent or punish.
  Next, the current justice system is rather useless. Introducing punishable crime to fortress mode gives it an actual purpose.

5. Differentiates dwarfs further from other other civs.
  The idea of a treasure hoard shared by the entire fortress could be unique to dwarven culture. This would be opposed to humans, who strive for individual wealth.
  On the technical side it is a less complicated alternative to the failed fortress economy.
  However it also wouldn't exclude having an economy as the hoard could serve as a base for a fortress internal currency.

6. Possibility to prevent/stop tantrum-spirals.
  Lastly, the treasure hoard could lessen or stop the effect of tantrum spirals. As unhappy dwarfs are more likely to steal,
it becomes likely that a dwarf who previously would have had a tantrum now instead either gets a happiness boost from a successful theft or
gets caught and has his tantrum in a jail cell.