Bay 12 Games Forum

I'm not sure - the one angle I can think of is creatures with spheres.  They should get the secret

I don’t think this is actually true.  Modding secrets and various megabeasts, demons, and other creatures with spheres and power and supernatural tags, they don’t actually ever write down or teach or use as bribes their secret knowledge or even ever seem to use their secrets to do anything, so I don’t think they get the secret knowledge at all.  Should this go in the bug tracker?  It might be a moot point, since the magic system will get reworked anyway after the steam premium release...

If you have additional things to add but no one else has posted since your last post, I think it is preferred to modify your existing posts as opposed to adding more posts.  It makes the forums easier to read.  I am not sure if there is an option that automatically merges your post, otherwise you could just modify the oldest and use insert quote to get them all together into one post...

Currently, magic is very heavily tied to necromancer towers - it seems nearly impossible to have a secret that is not a necromancy variant to be spread around in worldgen.  While this will no doubt pick up during the Myth and Magic arc, it would be nice to have simpler, placeholder methods that could work in manners similar to necromancy or the hard-coded mundane knowledge, but without the requirement for a tower, for modders interested in making a "high fantasy" world, or at least worlds in which there are wizards who don't make zombie armies.

Toady does like slipping extra bits here and there, but given that Myth and Magic is apparently next up after the steam release, I expect he won't be looking to add a placeholder but rather design an expandable and generalized system.  A lot of the existing but not usable as tags goals actually require a lot of additional world gen work to be made to work as secret goals in a fully developed way...

Still, the current goal framework could be a good starting point, even if it is a bit limited. I think every variety of secret could have compelling goals.  An additional token IS_SECRET_GOAL_SECONDARY or a an additional numerical argument to IS_SECRET_GOAL indicating the priority/alignment of the secret with the goal.  Additionally, goals should have interrelations to other goals (similar to how sphere have related, opposing, and parent/child spheres).  Each goal should also have things in world gen that can drive historical figures to shift to that goal or to pursue that goal extra hard in order to seek out a secret.  Finally, goals should tie into mundane actions as well.

PROSELYTIZE if the secret is good for building faith or spreading the word of their god or out-competing rival religions.  Related goals will vary by the domain of the god.  This goal could also drive mundane actions that got added to religious leaders in the villain arc.

HEAL_THE_SICK for medical secrets.  In world gen, plagues, magical syndromes, and seeing wounded die of infections should make this a driving goal.  This goal should drive mundane medical knowledge acquisition and use. This goal can be related to BRING_PEACE_TO_THE_WORLD and PROSELYTIZE as it can serve to advance either goal.  If a plague is threatening the historical figure's civilization it can be related to MAINTAIN_ENTITY_STATUS.  World gen will need proper plagues and disease spreading to make this goal make sense.

EXTEND_LIFE as a more moderate version of IMMORTALITY.  It should increase age but not grant full immortality. IMMORTALITY would be a related goal so that a would be necromancer might temporarily settle for a longer life, or someone just looking for a little bit longer might go full immortality.

SEE_THE_GREAT_NATURAL_SITES tied to spells that allow for faster travel, long distance awareness/scrying/clairvoyance, and extra planar travel.  EXTEND_LIFE would be a related secondary goal because a longer life allows for more time to see things.  Worldgen will need to respect faster travel methods and account for figures that use these abilities.

BECOME_A_LEGENDARY_WARRIOR any spell with good combat applications should at least have this as a secondary goal.  Perhaps historical figures that suffer defeats in combat or traumatic violence might gain this goal.  I am not sure how well world gen battles account for combat usable interactions...

ACQUIRE_WEALTH would be primary goal for any spell that allows for direct creation of valuable goods.  It should be a secondary goal for spells that allow exertion of mental influence.  This goal should be gained by historical figures that go through changing fortunes (rags to riches or riches to rage to riches, etc.).  World gen needs to account for material wealth accumulation better...

STAY_ALIVE would be a primary goal for any spell that grants defensive abilities...

RULE_THE_WORLD a primary goal for spells that allow for mass creation of minions and for mind control.  A secondary goal for spells that increase combat abilities and allow mental influence.

For more ideas, I think the Sphere brainstorming thread is good... http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=173189.0 just think of how each spell idea listed might have goals driving it.

So with the updated Legends Viewer, I figured out how to sort through written artifacts by event type, so I could sort by secrets learned.  I had a modded secret which over 53 historical figures learned from the same slab.  Nothing particularly stands out as causing this, just got lucky with a site.  Also of interest, I had a procedurally generated necromancer secret that ended up being spread simultaneously with a modded secret, both passed on from teacher to student together.  I've also started trying to test for the personality modifications that will encourage writing down secrets, but no luck with anything that obviously works so far.  Anyone have any good ideas about testing methodology for figuring out smaller or subtler results from interaction altered personality?  Or at least an easy way to make sure that worldgen respects interaction alterations to personality?

(keep getting worldgen crashes with spellcrafts, trying to figure out what's causing them)

I've been borrowing heavily from spellcraft mod to get ideas to test and play around with... if I run into anything that consistently causes crashes I'll let you know.

Just extracted some bogeyman raws, should I go ahead and update them on the wiki?

I personally would find that helpful, and all the non-procedurally generated creatures have RAWs included, so I think it would make sense to add an example or even two if there are substantial differences between any two examples.

Special attacks like those werebeasts use seem to be the most reliable way to get things to intentionally spread in worldgen without getting secrets involved. I haven't even had the chance to check out the new villain network stuff (keep getting worldgen crashes with spellcrafts, trying to figure out what's causing them)

Do you know what happens if you set the special attacks to grant secret interactions?  Or add special attacks to secrets?

Quote from: TomiTapio on February 09, 2020, 05:44:50 pm

Without dfhack: turn dwarf into creatureX. CreatureX drops a bodypart, turn CreatureX back into a dwarf. After that use blingbling to resurrect bodypart into CreatureY.

Thats looks intresting. But I'm a bad modder and I don't understand. Can you explain? What means "CreatureX" "CreatureY" and a "blingbling" 

Quote from: Scruiser on February 09, 2020, 09:25:09 pm

Of course, if for flavor or balance or roleplaying reasons Slann actually specifically wants the golems to be transformed dwarfs (as opposed to permanently summoned creatures or ) that is doable and easier to do.  I think it should make them remain citizens which can be assigned labor?

It doesn't matter how it's done. The result is important.  Golem must be assigned labor. Maybe, he can be part of the warrior squad.

CreatureX is a specially modded creature which is designed so that one of it's body parts will rapidly rot away and fall off.  You transform a dwarf into CreatureX temporarily, and then it drops a body part due to rapid rot.  This way, you have a special body part lying around which you can resurrect and transform with blingbling to get CreatureY, in this case a Golem.  This is kind of complicated and has a lot of potential points of failure, but apparently modders made it work prior to a dfHack script existing to take care of things much more simply.  It does have the weakness that the Golem is not a proper citizen.

I haven't tested how summoning interactions work with intelligent summoned creatures, this is probably your best bet.  It sounds like Mim and/or Strik3r are testing it...

I'm trying to create a strain of vampire with the ability to spread through bites like a ghoul, but it isn't working for some reason. Is there anything I'm missing / doing wrong?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

interaction_vampires_mi

[OBJECT:INTERACTION]

[INTERACTION:VAMPIRE_INFECTIOUS_MI]

[I_SOURCE:DEITY]
   [IS_USAGE_HINT:MAJOR_CURSE]
   [IS_HIST_STRING_1: cursed ]
   [IS_HIST_STRING_2: with a contagious diease, making them prowl the night in search of blood]

[I_SOURCE:INGESTION]
   [IS_HIST_STRING_1: consumed the tainted blood of ]
   [IS_HIST_STRING_2: and was cursed]

[I_SOURCE:ATTACK]
   [IS_HIST_STRING_1: bit ]
   [IS_HIST_STRING_2: , passing on the vampiric curse]

[I_TARGET:A:CREATURE]
   [IT_LOCATION:CONTEXT_CREATURE]
   [IT_REQUIRES:CAN_LEARN]
   [IT_REQUIRES:HAS_BLOOD]
   [IT_FORBIDDEN:NOT_LIVING]
   [IT_FORBIDDEN:SUPERNATURAL]
    [IT_CANNOT_HAVE_SYNDROME_CLASS:WERECURSE]
   [IT_CANNOT_HAVE_SYNDROME_CLASS:VAMPCURSE]
   [IT_CANNOT_HAVE_SYNDROME_CLASS:DISTURBANCE_CURSE]
   [IT_CANNOT_HAVE_SYNDROME_CLASS:RAISED_UNDEAD]
   [IT_CANNOT_HAVE_SYNDROME_CLASS:RAISED_GHOST]
   [IT_CANNOT_HAVE_SYNDROME_CLASS:GHOUL]
    [IT_MANUAL_INPUT:victim]

[I_EFFECT:ADD_SYNDROME]
   [IE_TARGET:A]
   [IE_IMMEDIATE]
   [IE_ARENA_NAME:Infectious Vampire]
   [SYNDROME]
      [SYN_CLASS:VAMPCURSE]
[CE_ADD_TAG:BLOODSUCKER:NO_AGING:STERILE:NOT_LIVING:NOEXERT:NOPAIN:NOBREATHE:NOSTUN:NONAUSEA:NO_DIZZINESS:NO_FEVERS:PARALYZEIMMUNE:NO_EAT:NO_DRINK:NO_SLEEP:NO_PHYS_ATT_GAIN:NO_PHYS_ATT_RUST:START:0]
      [CE_PHYS_ATT_CHANGE:STRENGTH:200:0:AGILITY:200:0:TOUGHNESS:200:0:START:0]
      [CE_MATERIAL_FORCE_MULTIPLIER:MAT_MULT:NONE:NONE:1:2]
      [CE_BODY_MAT_INTERACTION:MAT_TOKEN:RESERVED_BLOOD:START:0]
         [CE:INTERACTION:VAMPIRE_CURSE]
         [CE:SYNDROME_TAG:SYN_INGESTED]
         [CE:SYNDROME_TAG:SYN_INJECTED]
      [CE_DISPLAY_TILE:TILE:165:4:0:0:START:0:CAN_BE_HIDDEN]
      [CE_DISPLAY_NAME:NAME:vampire:vampires:vampiric:START:0:CAN_BE_HIDDEN]
      [CE_BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:START:0:BP:BY_CATEGORY:TOOTH:APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:LENGTH:150]
         [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:DRINKING_BLOOD:1:NONE:REQUIRED]
      [CE_SENSE_CREATURE_CLASS:START:0:CLASS:GENERAL_POISON:15:4:0:1]

I don't actually see the line from ghouls for infectious attacks?  Try adding:
[CE_SPECIAL_ATTACK_INTERACTION:INTERACTION:VAMPIRE_INFECTIOUS_MI:BP:BY_CATEGORY:TOOTH:START:0:ABRUPT]

Edit: The CE_SPECIAL_ATTACK_INTERACTION is a new token added for ghouls... I don't know if it will behave in worldgen properly like werecurses or vampires.  Worldgen might not even realize that vampires need to attack with a bite to feed.

Quote from: Slann on February 09, 2020, 04:03:07 am

Hello! I have a question about golems. I've been trying to create a mod for personal use for a long time. But nothing clever comes to mind. How do golems work in Masterwork? Can I copy some raw-file, reaction etc for myself, and if so, which ones? If you have any ideas "How to do this" please, answer. Thanks in advance for your reply.

I'm completely unfamiliar with masterwork, does anyone here know? And if they have those in masterwork, you could try copying those raws.

Could you describe the creature you wanted to create?

It depends exactly how you want Golems to work (I've played Masterwork fortresses two or three times... buts that was at least a few years ago).  If I recall correctly, there is no way to directly summon creatures with just the RAW reactions and workshops, instead you also need a dfHack script running at the same time. 

To do it this way, you will need to add in creature RAWs for the Golem, workshop RAWs for the workshop were you make it, reaction RAWs for the reaction, add the reaction and workshop to the entity RAWs, and then have the dfHack script running.

There is another way, which doesn't require dfHack and just RAW modifications, which I think older versions of the Masterwork did... you can have the reaction instead generate a material that vaporizes on creation because of a low melting point and has a syndrome attacked to it that permanently transforms the dwarf into a golem.  With the new summoning interaction, you could instead have the mist temporarily grant the dwarf the ability to summon golems and have the USAGE hints to the ability set so the dwarf does so right away.

To do it this way, you will need to add in creature RAWs for the Golem, workshop RAWs for the workshop were you make it, reaction RAWs for the reaction, add the reaction and workshop to the entity RAWs, a custom material RAW with a syndrome which causes either golem transformation or grants an ability to summon golems.  I think you also need an interaction RAW for the custom syndrome, but it might be definable in the material RAWs or the syndrome RAWs, I'm not 100% sure.

As a much. much easier starting point, you could just copy the Golem creature RAWs, and then add

[COMMON_DOMESTIC][TRAINABLE][PET]
[PETVALUE:60]

This will make Golem choosable on embark as pets at twice the cost of dogs.

Hmm. The lack of knowledge spreading without towers is worrisome, yeah. I do wonder whether there's any confirmation as to what personality affects that.

Toady has been amenable to revealing a bit under the hood if he recalls off the top of his head and the question is concise enough... I could try asking a FotF question if no one here knows.

Alternatively, I was tempted to rig it so that secrets could spread via other ways, most likely via contact with sphere-related creatures who might already be credited for the secrets in worldgen.

Sphere related creatures don't actually seem to get secrets like they should?  Or at least, rarely enough that I haven't found any in 4 tries at modded worldgen so far.  I had a whole bunch of modded intelligent dragon megabeasts with multiple sphere alignments and multiple secrets for those sphere available, but although they would occasionally take over sites, they didn't write any books or teach any students.  Maybe I should try modding there personalities next?

Alternatively, what's a good way to make sure that someone who kills a mage in worldgen is likely to become a mage?

Just the werebeast and bloodsucker stuff.  Eric Blank should have some idea from their Spellcrafts mod how well werebeast and bloodsucker secret spread methods mix with other secrets.

Sadly the supernatural learning never actually worked; supernatural creatures never picked up their associated secrets. I assume it's either a bug or it was never fully implemented to begin with.

However, with more secrets, more gods will pass out slabs. even if the secret doesn't have a raise interaction, the slabs will be stored in towns and stuff that now have places where artifacts are stored, so you can find them in mead halls and stuff.

So from my preliminary testing this all seems to be true in 47.x... however I did have a few historical figures learn secrets directly from slabs, and of 3 worlds I have generated so far, I actually got a book written by one of those historical figures containing a secret.  So secrets introduced this way can spread, it just appears to be very slow/uncommon (I am using a custom mod with 4 secrets taken from spellcrafts and 2 secrets I came up with myself and a few modded unique demons and unique megabeasts to test out which secrets are introduced into the world and which spread).  So I guess spamming loads of custom secrets is the best way to get a few of them actually into the generated world.  It seems like we will have to wait for the Myth and Magic arc to actually get fully moddable magic.

I have a few more things I want to try and test out, but I think I will wait for the Legends Viewer to be updated, legends mode is too much of a pain to browse otherwise.

PTW.

I realized as sly_urist said, that I rely on this tool even more than Dwarf Therapist.  I can at least play small forts and under-managed/unoptimized forts without dwarf therapist.  Without Legends Viewer, I find legends mode (almost) completely impenetrable.

I also wanted to chime in and add that if there are any tasks or help you need that is simple to explain and can be done in parallel in small pieces (churning out new world in worldgen and then searching through the xml dumps for examples of a particular string, for example), I can spare some time to help out, and I am sure you could find more volunteers.  Apologies if you've already mentioned such things earlier in the thread, I only read the first page and last two pages.

Quote from: Taras on February 02, 2020, 04:18:19 pm

Quote from: Strik3r on February 02, 2020, 03:56:27 pm

Quote from: ChaosPotato on February 02, 2020, 03:53:52 pm

Is it possible to make summoned creatures last forever?

yes, just remove IE_TIME_RANGE if your interaction has it

How make interactions for breeding genderless creatures in fortress mode?

Not my specialty, sorry. But i suppose you could make an interaction to give another creature an interaction to summon a creature and make sure both interactions have USAGE_HINT:GREETING ...?
Be aware that this will probably cause an uncontrollable population explosion.

How high can WAIT_PERIOD be set?  If you set it high enough, you could restrict the population explosion to a much slower rate.  Also... you could look at the way evolving worked in the Pokemon mod and then use it force a hidden wait period before the creature gains the ability to use the summoning interaction.  That way, each genderless creature will need a time before it can start doing the summoning interaction and a long time between summons.