Bay 12 Games Forum

Quote from: Scripten on November 01, 2014, 10:59:15 am

Also, TheDarkStar has legit made me lose my mind. I never said I didn't like posting Day 1 reads. I said that they are often wrong and are not as useful as later reads, but they can move the game state forward, so they are pro-town in general. Can't really respond to anything else in there since none of it has anything to do with the current day. (What's with the stalling?)

You noted that you did not like Day 1 reads, but you saw that they were necessary. That's not my main point, though. Your play yesterday was scummy, and I want you to answer some questions about your lynch choice. It might be about a different day, but how does that make the events of Day 1 less important?

I've answered everything you asked about today already, at length. Explain how my actions were scummy.

It was 3-4. You were online at the time and posting. You could've turned the lynch around by changing your vote. Flabort's lynch was not 'all but guaranteed'.

Did you miss the part where I THOUGHT HE WAS SCUM AND NQT DIDN'T? Do you realize that you're now literally trying to push the same case on me that you found me scummy for pushing on NQT? (Except mine was based on reality.)

Your argument was not a strong one at all. That you dropped it so quickly shows through.

Was strong enough for you to push on me, apparently. Not so scummy when you do it, though, right?

Those were his suspicions! Would you like to answer those, instead of continually going on about your Day 1 reads?

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........

Are you serious? Are you seriously saying that his case on me was anything but fluff? Jesus. Alright, fine, I'll play this game. I'll go ahead and distill the posts you quoted into points.

1. Scripten was awfully "hands off" during my/persus's conflict
2. I got no reason to suspect him other than gut feeling, honestly.
3. I feel like he was railroading NQT into Persus, and possibly me too.
4. I'm not really sure, but there definitely seems to be some connection between him and Persus in some way.
5. I have his attention, this might not be good for me.
6. Long replies get attention.
7. Persus and I seem to be Scripten's Pre-game targets, despite saying "I don't do these"

1. Baseless and unsubstantiated. I did not butt into their argument, true, but I engaged with them about their interaction.
2. Not actually a suspicion, but important, since you tried to discredit me with a similar quote.
3. Already explained this SO many times.
4. And? Vague, unsubstantiated, and just weird.
5. Vague again. How is this a worthwhile contribution to the discussion?
6. Fluff.
7. Pure speculation and absolutely unsubstantiated just like the rest of his case on me.

By the way, if my "day one reads" are mentioned again, I'm going to lose my mind. The ONLY times I've said anything about them at all has been when replying to people talking to me about them.

No, I'm saying there's only so many things he could've done and what he did was the most likely for somebody trying to get a scumread lynched. If you'd like, I can make a nice little list of things he could've done with labels and stuff?

NQT admitted that he could have done more, so you can quit being condescending, thanks.

1. There was a thing that made me suspicious of him, but other things made me see him as towny, and the towniness outweighed the suspicion.

2. And yeah, you've already abandoned that NQT should've pushed harder for a Deathsword lynch and gotten that 1 last vote in the 2 hours he had.

1. Tell me these things.

2. Actually, I stopped pushing for NQT's lynch because he admitted that he could have done more himself, as I stated above.

Wait a minute... what case? Where have you responded to his accusations about your interactions with NQT & Persus? I've seen you asserting in Day 1 that Flabort is suspicious and that you have a case on him, but the only meaty things you've said about him are in response to the Day 1 reads thing- you know, which he said wasn't a big deal?

Any time I mentioned the reads "case" Flabort had on me, it was in response to it being brought up again. By Flabort or others. I was getting tired of hearing it.

My case on Flabort was that his answers were dodgy, his wording was oftentimes politicized and steeped in obtuse metaphors, and his actions didn't line up with a town mindset. Do you really think that going after people who extended the day for extending the day is pro-town? Do you think that tunneling another player for RL delays in their play looks like town behavior? Please, tell me all about my line of thinking since you seem to know it so well.

By the way, Cheetar, care to explain why you're buddying NQT so hard while you're at it? Assuming he's town, do you think that sheeping his wagon on day 1 and chainsaw defending him later on is going to net you town cred?

Where he pushed people:

Quote from: notquitethere on October 28, 2014, 09:43:53 pm

With Cheetah's change of heart, who's going to move their vote to avoid a tie?

That's a bit weak, not gonna lie. I don't see him pushing that Flabort is town, just an appeal to compromise on one lynch or another. I'm pretty sure NQT wasn't expecting enough of a swing to switch the lynch onto Deathsword. I just don't see an effort to get a scum read lynched over a town read.

There wasn't a tie, but NQT didn't know that and he was urging people to change from Flabort to Deathsword (if he was merely trying to avoid a tie, he could have changed his vote from Deathsword to Flabort and be seen as towny for avoiding a day 1 tie vote.)

I don't like this point. You're saying that the lack of voting for an alleged town read is equivalent to an attempt to swing votes onto a scum read. I disagree.

It's certainly true that I didn't push for an answer on it- in part, because Flabort flipped as town and my suspicion of NQT was allayed, and also in part due to the fact that there were other people who I see as much more suspicious.

So the fact that Flabort flipped town convinced you that NQT's lack of suspicion over your vote switch was genuine. Can you explain to me how this is town motivated?

It seems to me that scum-NQT would be quite happy to see you on either side of the wagon. If you were on Flabort, it ensures a townie lynch. If you were on Deathsword, it adds legitimacy to his Deathsword wagon without risking an actual lynch, so long as nobody looked TOO closely at their votes. I would expect town-NQT to encourage introspection over votes from other players, which is not what happened.

Quote from: flabort on October 26, 2014, 11:12:50 pm

Scripten was awfully "hands off" during my/persus's conflict, but besides that... well, I got no reason to suspect him other than gut feeling, honestly. I do happen to be the most suspicious member of Clifton's crew, right? Well, basically, I feel like he's not got much going for him as town; he hasn't done anything overtly scummy, even taking into account that reads thing, but I feel like he was railroading NQT into Persus, and possibly me too. But then again, there was defending Persus by basically asking to take my vote, so...? I'm not really sure, but there definitely seems to be some connection between him and Persus in some way.

Scripten Doesn't put much value into Day 1 reads, yet forms them anyways. I guess this isn't bad. Earlier points above, as well. Directing people at either me or Persus for whatever reason. Probably scum.

Emphasis is mine. I don't think he was scumreading you because of the day one reads thing, and attempting to represent his argument as such is improper. He was scumreading you for different reasons to that which you have portrayed, and that you were comfortable lynching him because he saw you as scummy for something different to that which you stated is suspicious.

Actually, you're misrepping me. The day 1 reads thing blew up far more than it should have, but that was not nearly the only thing I was scumreading him for. That said, it's useless to debate this now. Obviously, it was a mislynch. I don't see this line of discussion moving the game state forward in any case.

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Scripten- Your sudden brust at NQT strike me a little odd, Why him? He is mostly town to the other people and there easier target to go after. DS for one .....

An easier lynch doesn't necessitate a scum lynch. In fact, those lynches that are too easy make me suspicious, since scum would be pushing against the lynch rather than happily busing.

Btw, there are only two mafia members in this game. It seems like you're playing as if there are three?

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Worldmaster27: You have not yet posted all day. Are you attempting to lurk all game to a scum win? I'd like to see some commentary, retrospectives, and scumhunting from you.

Scripten

Quote from: Scripten on October 28, 2014, 09:49:44 pm

If [Flabort] were to flip town today, I'd probably go for Worldmaster27, since he feels a little detached from the events unfolding.

Do you still think World master is detached?

Quite. He's not posted on day 2 at all. However, a reread over day 1 over the night gave me a lead to follow today that was stronger than just a likely overwhelmed newbie.

Yes, I was pretty sure that Flabort was going to flip town for all the good reasons I mentioned. I have the same info all the other town players have, just a better understanding of how town players actually play.

I disagree that the following read had enough good reasons to mark someone as a solid town read, but there's problems with that even if I give you the benefit of the doubt. I find it problematic that, with such a strong town read, you did not try harder to push an alternative lynch. You obviously have the ability to sway opinions in this game. Why not use it to push for a lynch on a scum read of yours instead of a relatively strong town read?

But I don't think Deathsword is cleared in the slightest. I voted Deathsword because he was the least engaged player who could have formed the most possible teams on D1. Now I have more info, you and TheDarkStar are looking like better lynch candidates (again, I want to look over my notes before I start forming fresh cases).

This is more what I was going for. I wouldn't expect you to push a scumbuddy as a town read. That'd be silly. You just said that Deathsword wasn't cleared in the same post, but now you have two better candidates for a lynch. One of which was a town read before the flip. It's convenient is what I'm saying.

Now I've explained where I was coming from, do you still think you have a case?

Yep.

I think scum most likely targeted me last night, but if I was in fact scum then I'd have killed Cheetah. If I tell you who I'd have jailed/investigated and I picked scum names, then the scum would know which of those roles I am not, and that is too much information to give to them. Do you disagree?

Nah, it's WIFOM. If you were a cop, they wouldn't know if you had caught them or not last night. Same with jailer, since either the target or the killing scum was jailed last night. (I don't believe a jailed player is informed if they are jailed, only if their action has failed if they are scum. Mod, can you confirm this?) You also could just as easily have lied about it and nobody would be the wiser.

That said, I don't really mind you skipping out on these questions. They were there for testing your reaction.

It's a little tough to get hard on people, but sometimes you have to. Granted, being TOO abrasive can be just as bad.

Flabort was found pretty much universally scummy, NQT was just restating it. And you could be scum with anyone. I'm not appealing to authority, I'm just saying that NQT doesn't really go after traditional scumtells and prefers to look at data. NQT compiling tables of reads and doing stuff like saying everyone's most likely scumbuddy is normal for him. As is his defense of flabort based on post count.

What does this have to do with what I said? I'm not calling him out for making reads lists or compiling data. I'm noting how the data/cases he's presented do not agree with themselves and presenting reasoning for why scum-NQT would act in this way.

By compiling a case on NQT and asking NQT a question? Ill rephrase, what is your plan for today besides going after NQT? Who do you suspect that is NOT NQT or Deathsword. What are you panning on doing to develop reads of them.

I don't see why I should have to go after people outside of my scumreads, especially when they have not appeared in the thread since Day 2 started. Why are you trying to push me away from pursuing a case against NQT?

When more things happen today, I will make note of them and, if they are alignment-indicative, I will adapt my reads to fit the data.

Illgeo - Not a terrible player, but I would recommend working on activity and proactive play to improve his town game. Getting mislynched isn't the worst thing in the world (get to that in a bit), but it does hamper the town's chances of winning. I would recommend interacting more with the other players and setting up more cases to push and evolve.

Salsacookies - First game, so not much to really say. Definitely, working to get a better read on other players is key. If you have a null read on a player, drill them until that read has turned into something else. If you feel like a player is scummy, examine why, present your thoughts, and see how they respond. It's okay to be wrong.

GayArchaea - Hard to tell, since Day 1 play is so very different than the rest of mafia. Seems like he's learning pretty quickly. Would like to play another game with him in it.

Kilojoule Proton - Same as Salsacookies. I would def recommend working on why you feel a certain way about a player. Also, when you are at L-1 (About to be lynched) make sure to claim, even if you're just claiming VT. Lynching power roles just should not happen on Day 1. Even if scum are fakeclaiming, at least they're fake claiming early so that the real power role can out them.

Cptn Kaladin Anrizlokum - Good play. Not much of a read, since this slot was pretty quiet all game. If I hadn't let my meta read on Illgeo color my suspicions, I would have been more attentive to this slot.

Worldmaster27 - Good play, especially for a new player. One thing though, NEVER stop conversation. If someone is trying to interact with someone else, ending the day is insanely scum-sided. The point of mafia, when playing town, is to have as much information as possible. More interactions can ONLY be bad for scum in the long run.

TheDarkStar - Good scum play, though midway through Day 2 I started becoming suspicious. I probably would have pursued a TDS lynch if Illgeo hadn't been playing to his meta.
Jim Groovester - Good play, of course. I'd love to go through a full game with Jim sometime. I think he was limited by the fact that the scum team were terrified of him and killed him ASAP.