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Sure, but we're not talking about the past. What, right now, do current leaders stand to gain by what seems to be exacerbating the situation?

Power and money. Always.

I don't know, Loud, that sounds like a crude worldview you have there.

The topic isn't 'the media' lying, the topic is whether a silent majority is sufficiently anti-immigrant that burning down refugee homes and killing people in the process can be seen as a legitimate - since alternativlos - form of resistance. So far, you have provided exactly jack shit evidence. Go sit in the shame corner with Morrigi.

You quoted me talking about the media lying and took something completely different from it.

How about you prove that people aren't anti-immigration? You're the one stating a fact and not providing evidence for it.

Go sit in the shame corner with your hand.

And lo and behold, to the surprise of precisely no-one you use that accusation as an excuse to provide none at all. Hell, I even gave you a criterion for what I'd consider evidence: Get me poll data. Good, German poll data. I've certainly done the same for you, haven't I? The thing is: It doesn't exactly support your crude worldview...

Crude worldview? What are you even talking about?

You want evidence, here's evidence from over a year ago:

In Thursday’s (19 February) national edition of the Eurobarometer opinion poll, 37% of Germans surveyed see migration as the biggest challenge for the EU, and for Germany, at the moment.

Only in the United Kingdom (38%) and Malta (57%) are these percentages higher. In most member states, the economic situation (33%) and unemployment (29%) were perceived as the biggest Europe-wide issues.

Meanwhile only 29% of Germans have a positive opinion of immigration from third countries, outside the EU. A relative majority (45%) said they believe illegal immigration into the EU should be counteracted at both EU and national levels. This corresponds to perceptions among a growing number of respondents in Germany (29%), who feel there are not enough inspections at the EU’s external borders.

As a result, German citizens are somewhat more critical than the average of all Europeans surveyed, of which 57% are against immigrants from third countries. Opposition was higher than in Germany among respondents from Italy (75%), Latvia (79%) and Slovakia (74%).

This is before the many rapes and sexual assaults came out.

Here's a poll from just over two months ago from people with migrant backgrounds, before the MANY rapes and sexual assaults came out:

A poll of Germans found that people with an immigrant background have the same concerns about migration as those without; 40 percent said that Germany should receive fewer refugees than at current levels.

How about you post some evidence Germans aren't anti-immigration? How about you get your crude worldview out of this thread?

How absolutely dare you disparage and insult my opinions when you haven't even the wherewithal to research your own? What a joke.

Do you release that you say this to a Ukrainian? We had people on the streets, government didn't listen, things went violent.

We had enough radicals to start going terrorism route and many tasty targets to blow up. We never did it and I am proud that we never acted this way. It is wisdom of my nation.

Oh, and yes, when people went to the streets USSR listened... It collapsed. There was a crowd led by Yeltsin, you know?

Go and gather at least quarter of million protesters in Berlin or Paris and camp there for few weeks. Then we will see if the government (and other part of nation) will listen.

You do know what Occupy Wall Street was, right?

The problem, nullBolt, is that

a) I haven't seen much to suggest that non-violent protest has been happening on a grand scale, and
b) Are you sure anti-immigration feeling is the will of the majority? I haven't seen anything suggesting it's the will of the absolute majority.

I'm not going to try to engage with anything else you've said because I think we have irreconcilable ideological differences there and there's not much point in trying to argue it.

a) You can't really have non-violent protest on a grand scale anymore. You'll be attacked and singled out. I think Britain First is a joke but they went out and tried to non-violently protest and were repeatedly physically attacked.
b) Honestly, you can't really tell. There's quite a lot of anti-immigration groups that are getting a lot more political support, though.

Do you really think you and your echo chamber have the objective truth, and everyone else is just lying maliciously? Show me one poll indicating widespread German support for terrorist acts like the ones you defend, for the murderers and arsonists you call 'freedom fighters'. The AfD is at ten per cent right now, almost exclusively supported by men, and about 68% of Germans believe it to be a transient movement./url] Tell me, where do you see a fucking silent majority in that?

Why did you change the topic from the media lying? You're also implying that I said burning places down gains silent majority, which is not the case. There is a very large silent majority out there that is sickened by what is going on, though.

The Swedish Democrats make up 20% of their country's votes and their whole platform is anti-immigration. No one is speaking up for them, though, because they are silent. How many more people are there out there who believe in their policies?

I have a sneaking suspicion you'd dismiss any evidence of support that people could show, just as you'd dismiss evidence showing that migrants heavily support terror attacks and very "extremist" beliefs.

It's pretty hard to protest anything when you will be painted as racist and ostracized for criticizing anything related to immigration, even if you are a Muslim immigrant yourself and revealing active recruiting by terror organisations such as al-Shabab in your very home quarters. This translated interview is from the documentary/investigative show the above article is about, if you don't want to google translate. The show is Uppdrag Granskning from SvT, the Swedish state television.

Exactly, no one is gonna speak up if they're gonna be ostracised and fired and harassed.

Quote from: Helgoland on January 24, 2016, 08:25:53 am

Yeah, this. They tried, actually - Pegida, Legida, Kögida, Bogida, and all the other organizations where cowards gather to feel strong as part of the mass. Apart from a couple cities in the East they were vastly outnumbered everywhere by the counter-protesters.

Quote from: scriver on January 24, 2016, 08:41:12 am

So when Pegida and the like gathers they are cowards, but the counter-protesters aren't? What are they then, heroes?

One man's coward is another man's heroes.

Quote

When peaceful methods of protest fail and the government fails to meet the needs of the people, the people must take actions to ensure that their demands are listened to.

Those are actions of a cowardly minority.

If you talking on behalf of entire nation then go on, gather few millions on the streets in a peaceful protest if you want government to hear you.

People have done. The government has not listened. Do you think the current government cares?

If people in the USSR had taken to the streets, would the government have listened?

So terrorism is a good thing?

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

The sad thing is that I have more respect for ISIS than I do for European governance. At least one is fighting for what they think of as their people.

Yeah, those would-be murderers are as much 'the people' as Cleve Bundy's bandit gang was 'the people'. Protip: If you have to claim the backing of the 'silent majority' against the non-silent majority that denounces you, you're very probably wrong.

Also, Null, you should probably think long and hard about why you defend people who apparently very deliberately tried to kill those firemen. They're quite literally terrorists, and you're apparently not very far away from their mindframe.

Do you think the media is the non-silent majority? Really? A media that has been shown to have been lying (deliberately and by omission) for the past five years.

I mean, fuck, like two pages back there was a report about Polish protests which have not been shown at all in the Western media.

Until we invent automated processes that require no maintenance or creative input by an intelligent creature we're hardly in a post-labour society (although I for one welcome our new automated overlords). Jobs have been rendered obsolete by technology, certainly. For example, take the 19th century ice trade. Prior to refrigeration, we had an entire global industry employing over 90,000 people devoted to transporting a short lasting product over vast distances for enormous profit ($660 million in today's dollars). Wham! Technology made their industry obsolete. But hey, somehow society continues to function and the economy doesn't crumble. New developments will be no different, save for those individuals who fail to adapt to the shift in consumption patterns.

At the moment, we could put literally 75% of people out of their jobs just by implementing automation (and not even particularly complex or detailed automation, either).

We are very much post-labour. Even in a post-labour society you need people maintaining the machines.

So here's a question from my current game:

If my Wizard cast Dominate Person on a rich old widow and commanded her to rewrite her will to leave everything to myself, then teleported her to my stronghold to act as my personal cleaning lady and cook, would that count as worthy of an alignment shift from True Neutral? Would it be an Evil or a Chaotic shift?

That's pretty firmly a lawful evil act.

It'd definitely be an evil alignment shift.

I'm a university student doing programming. I'm in a Team Project. We're doing a Client-Database software. I build the database and ask someone to fill it up with dummy data. He then goes and changes the names of all the tables, the dummy data is literally keyboard bashing and, worst of all, we can't use the login function because the hashvalues for the passwords stored in the database are nonsense.

I had to fix everything. Then again, I suppose it's an improvement over the past few times of "I left it at home" like we're still at school and I'm his teacher and we don't have ten billion places to upload this stuff.

It'd be faster if I just did it all myself.

At least one of my other team members is competent and diligent, I guess.