Bay 12 Games Forum

Am In a mood for a long, boring post explaining my opinion on the current war in Gaza and related events.

1)On the morning of October 7, entering Twitter to casually read stuff, I was shocked by the sheer barbarity of Hamas and a large chunk of Gazan civilians. I am not a person who is easily shocked nowadays. I have seen a lot of shit in the past years.

2) Then I witnessed glee and celebration of this barbarity all over the internet. Including people whom I considered reasonable. It disgusted me even more than the act itself. So many of those people now scream "Save Palestinian children!"

3) I immediately knew that this meant a big war. No country in the world would leave such an attack without an immediate military response.

4) Considering the history of Israel, what kind of shit is the current ruling party of Israel, how pissed and angry the Russian-speaking segment of Israeli social networks were (including moderates), and the sheer strength of the Israeli military I was very afraid of a genocidal bloodbath in response.

5) Protests against Israel started almost immediately as if it was Israel who broke the ceasefire and restarted the war, almost completely ignoring the barbarity of Hamas, acting as if it never happened. Immediately, those protests were full of outright hatred towards "the West colonizers", Israel, and yes, Jews in general. I am neither blind nor deaf. I heard their slogans. I have seen what they post on social networks. This is hate. If there are some gullible pacifist fools who don't understand what they support - I don't care. Those protests grow and become more scary in rhetoric. As they won't be getting what they want... I am worried about very unpleasant events in the future.

6) Then utterly absurd anti-Israeli rhetoric started to come from the major Western media and NGOs. Like - Israel stopping the supply of electricity to the enemy = collective punishment and a war crime. It was followed by more biased reporting. "Intentional bombing of a Hospital in Gaza killing 500 innocents" was the cherry on the top. It is as close to blood libeling as it gets.

7) My fears of a genocidal bloodbath in response never came true. No, there are deaths of innocents, like it happens in a war, but casualties are really, really low considering the population density and Hamas tactics. I am pleasantly surprised by how Israel conducts this war. Should it change, I won't be supporting what I consider to be evil (still, I won't be waving the Palestinian flag and chanting "from the river to the sea"). But I have hope that the Israeli occupation policy will also pleasantly surprise me, especially if Israeli do a smart thing and kick Bibi out (preferably to a prison)

I got used to living in a world in which countries with nukes can do horrible crimes without consequences. I don't want to get used to a world in which a fanatical religious totalitarian group can do the same and not face the consequences. Hamas must be removed from Gaza. Sure, like with ISIS or Al-Qaeda, you can't remove them completely, but the blow must be devastating and horrifying. And Israel does exactly that. And this I support so very much. Evil of this magnitude can't be tolerated.

9) I truly believe that Gazans having their homes destroyed and lives lost is still the lesser evil than living under Hamas's rule further descending into a fanatical militaristic totalitarian hell that will, anyway, end with a war no matter what. You can't even start bringing freedom to Palestinians before you free a significant chunk of them from Hamas.


10) Ceasefire means that we will be left with an already severely damaged Gazan infrastructure AND Hamas staying in power. Which is the worst possible combination. It also means that sooner or later Hamas will launch another attack on Israel and the war will restart. People calling for a ceasefire are either unwise or just pro-Hamas and want to give them a breather. Also, it won't happen. No diplomacy in the world can make Israel stop. It may weaken their army but not to the point where they will be unwilling or unable to finish. You'll need to invade Israel to make it work.

Keep trying, one day you’ll be able to find a way to paint all pro-Palestinian protestors as anti-Semitic.

Pro-Palestinian? Wait a minute... I thought those were pro-peace and pro-ceasefire?

https://www.reuters.com/world/police-investigate-pro-palestinian-protest-sydney-opera-house-over-alleged-anti-2023-10-10/

I asked if they are behind bars or not, not if the police pretended to care

If the goal of Israel is to destroy Hamas (or the like), they ain’t going about it the right way. People having their homes and communities destroyed aren’t going to be philosophical about the matter. Equally so, all of Hamas isn’t in Gaza, so even if it was razed to the ground and all the tunnels filled with concrete, Hamas still exists, or get re-created by some of the Palestinians whose families have been destroyed in Israeli strikes that live elsewhere.

If the goal of Alies is to destroy Nazi Party (or the like), they ain’t going about it the right way. People having their homes and communities destroyed aren’t going to be philosophical about the matter. Equally so, all of Nazi Party members aren't in Germany, so even if it was razed to the ground and all the tunnels filled with concrete, Nazi Party still exists, or get re-created by some of the Germans whose families have been destroyed in Allied strikes that live elsewhere.

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The only correct thing here is that if Israel will go for another unfair, cruel, and idiotic occupation policy, there will be a new Hamas or a rebirth of it. Just like there would be a new Hitler if occupation of Germany would be unfair (note that German Neo-Nazi are far more popular in Eastern Germany and think why)

The thing is, we have a war between Israel and Hamas and we do know that Hamas uses this slogan and we know what it means by that - "Israel must be destroyed, all 'Jew settlers' expelled or killed"

You just don't use a slogan used by a side in the war and claim that you're just an anti-conflict and anti-war crimes protestor who doesn't support that side of the war.

Plus there is also way more menacing (even if less popular) "globalize the intifada".

Boots on the ground.  They have special forces, Mossad, diplomats, money, prisoner swaps. Bombing the shit out of Gaza is just the easy option.

Neither of those options can destroy HAMAS. Which is the stated goal of Israel.

Boots on the ground without the use of tanks, artillery, and air force would result in huge casualties among Israelis and would absolutely not be enough to destroy HAMAS

Massad is likely capable of assassinating some of some of HAMAS leaders here and there but that also wouldn't destroy HAMAS

What kind of diplomacy would hurt HAMAS is beyond my understanding.

Paying HAMAS or releasing their pals in exchange for hostages (NOT PRISONERS) equals justifying HAMAS's tactics and would explode Israel. Its citizens would be justifiably very unhappy seeing their government not only allowing a horrible attack but also rewarding it.

And Israel is going the hard route: A short air strike campaign followed by a limited land invasion.

An easy one would be spending a few months flattening Gaza with dumb bombs and artillery (including incendiary and cluster munitions) ignoring 6-figure civilian casualties and then moving in to mop up whatever survives. Or going in immediately in full force assault treating all civilian buildings as enemy fortifications and acting accordingly (see Mariupol)

A question for you: do you actually think it’s possible for Israel to commit war crimes in this conflict? What would the line be for you?

When there is a war, there are war crimes. I have seen relatively reliable evidence of war crimes committed by the Israeli Army in this war, like executing Hamas fighters who clearly tried to surrender

The problem begins when everything one side does is called a war crime. Don't supply resources directly to the enemy? WAR CRIME. Doing any air strikes that cause any collateral casualties?  WAR CRIME. It is hard to spot actual ones.

There are myriad ways Israel could have responded to the October 7th attacks

Can you name a few?

Like they’re fighting around and bombing near a hospital in Gaza City “because Hamas” have tunnels underneath the hospital, or they bombed an ambulance convoy “because Hamas” use ambulances to shuttle people and materiel around.

But both are true. As soon as one side uses hospitals and ambulances in this way - bombing them stops being a war crime. This is why there are rules for not using hospitals this way.

Because Hamas” basically culminates in things like bombing media headquarters providing critical coverage in Gaza

Yeah, this one was a rather transparent lie. "Hamas intelligence" wasn't the target. But if you are acting as propaganda for one side of the war, you will get hit. USA bombed the infrastructure of media of Irag for "some" reason, too. 

They’re calling for an end to the conflict not the extermination of the Jews.

Yeah, sure. It is all about supporting victims of a conflict!

No.  It is not about caring about innocent victims, we have many wars with innocent victims, and they don't gather crowds.

It is not about caring about the right of a nation to self-determination because I fail to see protests supporting, for example, Kurds, against whom Turkey takes unlawful military action quite regularly.

It isn't Muslim solidarity because I see no anti-Chinese protest, who outright ban Islam in a Muslim region and keep Muslims in concentration camps.

It isn't solidarity with Arabs either, few gave an F when Assad, together with non-Arab intervents in the form of Russia and Iran, killed Arabs in masse. Neither is there any interest in stopping the war in Sudan...

What makes this conflict unique? Israel is one of the sides, that's what. It means that the core motivation of those protests is either hatred of specifically Israel or hatred towards "the West" and "its Israeli outpost on Muslim lands" or good old antisemitism.


Besides, I am neither deaf nor blind. I see and hear their slogans. Those are not slogans of people wanting peace. "From the river to the sea Palestine will be free" and "Globalize the Intifada" are quite clear. And those are not the worst stuff that can be heard.

"Do not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same."

Also, the Golden Rule quickly breaks apart as soon as your action impacts more than one person. By treating one person in a way you want to be treated, you will often deny such treatment to the other person.

Like "you want people taking your side in a conflict" but if you choose one side in a conflict you automatically deny the Golden Rule treatment for the other side.