Bay 12 Games Forum

That said, I'll rejoice the day I can hand an +alder mop+ and a *plastic Hefty sack* to migrants and petitioners and tell them to earn their way into my keep. 

LOL!  Thinking of the work orders required to make a *plastic Hefty sack*...  Would you need pearlash to make it a *black plastic Hefty bag*?

Just thought, instead of Dwarven Children helping with harvesting, they could instead automatically help with cleaning.  Than again, that doesn't work with my own children... so nevermind...

My fort Stabcaves has just entered it's fiftieth year with an FPS still running high in the 30s.  Its a simple fort, ten layers of stores, quarters, tombs, shops, and barracks underground, and a five layer castle complete with moat and towers and houses above ground.  My clan dwarves (all from the same family clans) live underground, the rest above ground.  Each group has their own tavern, food stores, and temple.  Everything has run smooth this way for over thirty years (took twenty or so years to build).

But there is a problem.  Stabcaves is prone to buzzard invansions every year.  It becomes a slaughterhouse as surface dwarves pummel them in the bar, marksdwarves shoot at them from the walls, and food from the above ground stores gets dropped on top of the castle roof.  After thirty years, my surface fortress is a mess.  Broken crossbow bolts everywhere, blood everywhere, crossbow bolts and buzzard bits stuck on rooftops and fortifications.  Even my well collapsed and the chain stuck in the cistern.  And of course, the vomit.  Visiting merchants must be totally disgusted entering the gates of Stabcaves.  Strange they freak out at the site of one goblin tooth on the ground and not the vast quantities of blood...  As for the bar... it must be the worst dive ever.  True it has gold tables, but how much blood, vomit, puss, and buzzard bits can a person take before their mushroom and kangaroo tripe roast is no longer appealing?  Don't they worry about slipping on the pools of blood as they do the conga portion of The Fabulous Periwinkles dance?

So my question.  What do you do in your fort to keep it clean?  Particularly the outside portions that don't get rained on.  My solution is to build floors over the surface, leave them there until sufficiently bloodied, and then remove them and rebuild them.  I do the same with the walls, doors, windows, fortifications (have to get that crossbow bolt out), everything.  Honestly, this is rather time consuming and it always seems that after doing so another buzzard flock decides to descend.  Any other solutions?  I do like a little blood and vomit and broken crossbow bolts, but not so much that I think my dwarves are living in an Evil Dead movie.  Thanks!

This would work, but the micromanagement leaves for so many errors that I would quickly loose correct count.  The craft may be of standard quality, but how much orthoclase are we going to use to make those crafts.  Eventually the worker would become so skilled that we no longer have standard quality crafts unless we pull another worker from another area to take over.

Coins would be the ultimate value standard, but the problem lies in that stack can not be broken up except for during trade and those broken up stacks must be sent with the caravan for them to stay as stacks.  This makes it so that division of a base unit.. say 1 stack of gold coins which may be 500, can not be reduced to the .2 and .3 amounts that you speak of below.

Micromanagement would be an issue for sure.  Coins would be much easier but as you point out, there is no way to break up the stacks.  As for quality, it would improve making the 'low denomination' rock craft less abundant.  I suppose it would really depend on how much a dwarf is really earning.  If it divides out that they are making thousands of dwarf bucks, rounding to the nearest 50 or 100 dwarf buck may not be much of an issue.  One could also add gold and silver crafts as the larger denominations.  Micromanagement though...  Maybe payment every five years as if they signed a long term contract for a particular job...

I really like where this is going and where your through process went.  Thank you for your historical information.  Now lies the problem of finding our variable of base cost.

lets say that food, basic lodging, safety, and a basic tomb is equal to .5
all the non-skilled non-lords will be under this .5 limit and thus no longer require being paid.

Artisans below level 10 work for the guilds and earn 1 while paying half of that to the guild until level 10 as they are only apprentices and are paying for their training.
Artisans earn 2 having completed their training at level 10, increasing by 1 each level which puts them at 7 by legendary status.  (I like the number seven)

I was thinking that soldiers should have longer contracts than regular people in order to pay for their arms and armor.  They earn only .5 for the first 30 years, after that they can continue to work as honor positions for a pay of 2 or they can retire and live freely meaning that if they decide to do any other work, they earn the .5 on top of whatever else they do.. even if it is just hauling.  The armor and weapons are theirs and go with them to their tomb.  Unretired soldiers live in a barracks, retired and honored soldiers get their own rooms.  All soldiers get a fair quality tomb and include their arms and armor.

Guild masters make the .5 off of every member in their profession.
Militia commander gets a base of 5 (Director of Defense has a salary of 205k)
Militia captain gets a base of 2 and may only be chosen from those that have mastered the art of their weapon or have worked for the 30 year period and have decided to stay.

Captain of the guard gets 4 (director of FBI has a salary of 170k)

Mayor is 10

Manager, broker, bookkeeper, etc. they all get 2.

This is all the private money going out.  So since the wealth of the nobility is owned by the state, they don't have to be paid, they just get to choose how the state wealth is used for bartering and such.. hence the mandates.

how does that look?

I like this.  A thought I had after my last post on division of all wealth was that some of the created wealth would be in furniture and the like which couldn't be divided easily.  Under this setup, there is a built in rent that accounts for this wealth with the 'real' benefactor as the noble.  I also like the 'purchase of armor' implied debt on the soldiers.  One could also think of it as soldiers having a choice of quality of armor and weapons and how long they are in debt paying them off.  Masterpiece armor takes 30 years, while the rickety old goblinite junk can be paid off in a year or two.  Would give the soldiers who put in the time and are true professionals the better quality stuff and the cannon fodder, well, they may just not hope for a war...  Are you thinking each profession grouping (stone masons, metal workers, gem cutters, etc.) is a single guild with a single guild master?  I have built forts that way with a clan per guild and the 'master' being hereditary.  I didn't attempt accumulating individual wealth under that system, but that sounds fun.  I'd think the poor legendary journeymen could end up being stuck paying the fee no matter what (unless there is an unfortunate accident of course).

As for the break down in salaries, I like it.  Peasants stay at subsistence... that'd make the micromanagement easier as they'd never really have anything outside the basics.  Could also think of the guild members of signing long term agreements.  Apprentice for twenty years, journeymen for twenty years, etc. with payout at the end of each contract.  This would mean in terms of setting up the stockpiles that it doesn't happen very often.  Also gives an opportunity for guild masters to kick out those they don't like or see as competition...  Arbitrary abuse of power over wealth?  Sounds rather dwarfy...

For a more modern thought, one idea for a modding credit card of sort: Use something like Druid exp, as that skill isn't used by the game currently. Or perhaps Alchemist if one wants to know how rich a dwarf is v-g?

@Nilbert: Small note for the first section above: a dwarf can receive both happy and unhappy thoughts indeed - but being busy, doing work and creating nice things all make dwarf more focused and happier.

Though I suppose dfhack already includes a hook for job completion, so could perhaps just decrease dwarf happiness on every completed job, forcing the overseer to balance leisure with work for that dwarf.

However, stress stays around for 2 years iirc, while migrants and visitors are plentiful, giving an interesting viewpoint.

@DrTank09:

Can just ignore quality if you want when it comes to craft, or not split coin stacks. I.e. have 500 coins = 0,1.

Another interesting token might be blocks, as they're infinite with glass and clay and obsidian and wood, and also lack a quality level. Though I expect a dwarf would want royal rooms decorated with things they like rather than a stockpile full of blocks, coins or goblets , so there should be a fair possibility of using this to buy what they desire.

Thanks Fleeting Frames for the info!  I like the idea of feeling down with completing a task.  Will need to think on this a bit more.  I also thought about blocks, or rocks or clay, as they are pretty much infinite and are really low value.  Pennies of the dwarf world.  They don't stack well without a quantum stockpile, which I am not sure how one would manage more than one of those and a dump.  Goblets and mugs instead of crafts...  Hmmm...  German beer hall anyone?  I've never used the druid or alchemist skills (or DF Hack for that matter).

I too have tried to find matches for elves and goblins for marriage but the age differences are so great.  Good to know there is hope!

Oh, your study is economic history?  Why didn't you say so? By all means, your expertise is appropriate here. And thank you for your correction on study vs science.

But for a system that would be simple to implement, why not use the system of moods and happy thoughts dwarves already have? If a dwarf does not get their pay, say yearly, they work far less efficiently. The more each one is paid, the happier they are, and better they work. That makes the player pay their best workers more. So if you want your legendary carpenter to make beds of higher quality faster, you give them more pay. That way, it is balanced by the player.

Ironfang, my pleasure.  Using the present happy thoughts makes sense (not sure on moods which seem pretty random).  Happy workers tend to be productive workers; pay though isn't what I think makes a worker happy.  Rather, it is what they can get with the pay; plus, what makes it interesting is that work does the exact opposite than make a worker happy (aka, the labor leisure tradeoff).  Time off work to enjoy things purchased with the pay generates the happy thoughts, not having those makes them stressed.  In economics, we have a theoretical construct measure of happiness called a 'util.'  The more utils a person has, the happier they are.  Does the 'good thoughts' mechanism work in a similar manner?  That is, are happier thoughts cumulative (and can they be negative)?  I have never used the dwarf therapist and am unsure.  If they do, the dwarf is likely already set up as a rational economic person.

What I am thinking in terms of a labor leisure model is that a dwarf makes 'a decision' on how many hours to work and then how many hours to not work.  If they work more hours, they get more pay but they have less leisure.  Ideally, a model would allow each dwarf to make a decision using such a model in that pay allows more goods to enjoy during leisure time but more pay (and thus goods) means less leisure.  The dwarf chooses the balance based on an assigned wage, assigned cost of goods, and preferences on leisure (and goods) that makes him/her happiest.  The actual decision model could really be a simple heuristic to begin with (have to think on that some more). 

I'd love to be able to do this, but I think the one thing we are missing for this to work properly, is a stockpile value cap.  We can set what type of goods, what quality, what material, but we can't set how much value each good could be worth or what the total stockpile could hold.  I think this is what we need for this sort of system to work.  I hope that this capability is added later on, if not through vanilla, then through dfhack but for right now, I am looking for options that we can create quickly through our available means.

DrTank09, we are missing a value cap and that would be an interesting addition.  Simple one too I'd think.  How about this as a method.  I had my stonecrafter make a bunch of orthoclase crafts.  A standard craft costs 10 dwarf bucks (saw this looking at the craft); each quality increase increases the cost by 10 dwarf bucks (not counting masterpiece, which is 120 dwarf bucks).  Lets now assume we have a hauler dwarf, and his wage for the year is 100 dwarf bucks.  He has a bedroom and his own personal horde, which is a stockpile with bins activated but it will only take from links.  When the year ends, there is another stockpile that is set to receiving only rock crafts (no economic stones so all are same value).  It is 10 tiles in size, and it only excepts standard quality crafts.  It does not allow bins.  It should fill up with ten standard value crafts, worth 10 dwarf bucks a piece and a total of 100 dwarf bucks.  Then, the stockpile is set to accept from links only with no links (it therefore should not get any more crafts added).  It is then linked to the dwarfs personnel horde and the crafts go into the dwarfs bin.  Once this happens, the stockpile with 10 tiles is removed.  Repeat for all dwarves...  Of note, for higher quality crafts, the number of tiles could be decreased so that values match up.  Would this work?

One issue I am seeing with the thought that we pay all dwarvebucks out evenly, is that this doesn't leave room for dwarves that don't get paid.  Even if we have the system in where we can divide up all the loot appropriately without sending it back to the mountainhome, we still need to find a monetary value that each dwarf is worth.  If we do go with the system of variable cost (i.e. 1x, 1.5x, 2x where x is the base cost) then what is a reasonable number that we can successfully increase based off of skill so that there is not such a huge difference between my hauler and my blacksmith?

Yah, all dwarves would be paid something unless their base was set to zero.  My thinking that zero base would only apply to elves... 

As for monetary value that each dwarf is worth, if all their goods are in a bin, one could theoretically move the bin to the depot during a trade and see the accumulated value (each has a number).  The problem would be getting it back into the personal horde.  Or one could just be a tally of yearly pay for each dwarf in excel or something. 

As for skill, I see this as a fun question and I think it depends on how much wage gap you want in your fort.  In medieval days, wage gaps were enormous between the highly skilled 'professions' and the laborers, journeymen, etc. (the unskilled).  Serfs and peasants virtually owned nothing and had no pay.  In DF, they'd have food, booz, and place to sleep.  This was about 95% of the population.  I see these as the farmers, haulers, animal and fishing dwarfs, non-lord soldiers (most soldiers received little more than food, drink and lodging as wages), bards, performers, miners, wood choppers, dyers, wood burners, furnace operators, scholars, scribes (after all, monks weren't supposed to own anything), and all elves (no matter what skill level or job, unless king, which case yikes). These guys would have something like a 0.2 base and no matter there skill level they still make the same.  The rest are the skilled labor (except the nobles who are 'special').  In medieval times, guild masters got all the money (just look at the old Dutch paintings of these guys).  These dwarves make 0.2 base until expert, when they increase 0.2 or 0.3 per skill level increase (I am not sure how many levels there are); nonetheless, the max (legendary) should be a base 2.  That means they make 10 times the amount as the unskilled.  That leaves the 'lords' of the army and the nobles.  Well trained soldiers I think should be seen as something like a knight, which did have more than the unskilled but nowhere close as the rich burghers (guild masters).  I'd put them at 0.5 on reaching lord status.  Last, the nobles.  Militia commander, the general, should get base 1.  Captain of the guards (likely the most corrupt guy in the fort...) base 1.5.  Militia captains 0.8, same as hammerer and champion (who I see as an old retired soldier on a good pension).  Broker 1.0, manager 1.0, medical dwarf 1.0, accountant 1.1 (takes off the top but not enough to be caught...).  Mayor should be 2.0 like the guild masters (typically they would always come from the guild masters).  Last and certainly least, the 'real' nobility.  First of all, they shouldn't work.  As for how much they take, I'd max it out to be about half of the yearly production minus the cost of the army.  This would make it population dependent...

The last bit of that quote is what I am attempting to achieve.  A mock economy that is controlled through player input.  We set the rules for ourselves, we can tweak them.  This game is all about challenging yourself to see how things go any way, right?

The thing is I was trying to figure out was a realistic cost for dwarves.  I already know the system I want to use but wanted input on costs.  quality jobs require a higher compensation because they have a higher pay output on average.

Should I just average the costs of every item that could be produced by a dwarf with this skill set and allow a dwarf with a medium skill in the profession to ply his trade to see the number of crafts made over the course of a month,  multiply that by a fraction for royalties, then multiply that by 12 to get a yearly salary?

DrTank09, I agree that a mock economy would be a great goal.  As for input on costs, as the wage isn't be determined by supply and demand, it is really arbitrary and based on whatever someone thinks is realistic.  The 'weighted scale approach' is one method that I think a lot of the posters on the forum like, such as haulers earn one times the minimum wage rate, gem cutters earn 1.5 times the minimum wage rate, etc.  The scales can then be aggregated (1 for each hauler, 1.5 for each gem cutter, etc. all added together); this gives the total adjusted number of workers.  If you want a situation where every dwarfbuck is paid back to the workers, you could then divide the total production in a year by the adjusted number of workers and this gives you the minimum wage.  This could be adjusted each year as total production will change.  You could also through in a markup for the nobles (10% of production?) or for the horde.  As for accumulating wealth, why not private stockpiles filled with items of the appropriate value?  Crafts have a low value so they are easily divisable, stack well in bins, and quick to produce.  How to get the right number in each stockpile would be a challenge but this would be in my opinion a cool method for wages.

But from what I am seeing, the solution you are looking at being a good boss and rewarding effort. In reguard to the economic principles, you first have to look at economics in a more historical sense. Even then, it is complex due to the fantasy nature of the game. Even in an academic setting, economics are known as a very "soft" study. No offense to economists, to do such an undertaking is respectable. But programming something of such volatile and variable nature would be a tremendous undertaking, requiring not only an economist, but a few historians. Proper economic behavior will likely only occur properly after DF produces sentience.

Ironfang, economics is considered a soft science, not a soft study.  Its called a soft science as we very rarely can conduct experiments in the traditional sense, like in chemistry or biology, as our 'test subjects' are people (we are social scientists after all).  Instead, we have to rely on assumptions, like in some branches of physics, and then conduct our hypothesis testing using a highly developed and complex method of statistical analysis called econometrics.  This is what is meant by 'soft.'  Also, there are plenty of models that don't require sentience, just a decision formula, preferences, and goods is the minimum.  These can be complex or simple.  Last, there is a branch of economics called economic history and there is a lot of work done on explaining and modeling medieval economies as well as economic thought during that period of time.  In fact, my specialty is economic history and do see the value of a historical view.  Further, dwarves in my opinion are horders, so the fantasy element could easily work into the preferences.  Dwarves like stuff... lots of shiny stuff...  Elves (which I always have in my fort) don't like to work and don't care about stuff.  Preferences!  All we need is a labor leisure decision formula and all would be well.