Bay 12 Games Forum

quick answer no.  use to be the entire barrel/bag was picked up and dragged around the map, now the seed itself is grabbed and dropped in the bag that is in the barrel.  if a new bag is needed it grabs a the fresh bag and roams around gathering the seeds then places it in the barrel.... it use to be the other way around, so seeds would end up being unacessible while a dwarf roamed around gathering all the dropped seeds.

you know that spears and spikes stick far less then axes?  also rock axes are far more deadlier due to momentum and mass. basically you had 10 axe shaped hammers, neither of those stones are capable of having cutting edges according to their raws, if I read them correctly.  I don't remember for sure, but I think obsidian, slate, mica, and most metal ores can hold cutting edges, otherwise they just end up being hammers that want to cut.

What sweet images. That's exactly what I propose.
1. We can do this, if we like. If the answer is "Yes, both drink from and use in trade", then perhaps the simplest solution would be to make a new material type to represent (for example) platinum-encrusted skulls, and then create a reaction requiring a skull (of civ-forming species only?) and a platinum bar to create a cup. Drinking would then happen automatically, and trade would accept cups of this material type. We can either allow such cups to have quality modifiers, or (by using a second, automatic reaction) force them to have no quality. I'm open to either notion.

I'm wondering if goblets can have definitions... lol... so many things you can't play with too much, looking at several things, I see that an actual cup would be listed as [GOBLET:NONE:INORGANIC:PLATINUM] or [GOBLET:NONE:CREATURE_MAT:DWARF:SKULL] (not sure, I've not been in the business of figuring out how to make bone gear, yet). in the first case any platinum cup would end up being counted as a equivalent to a skullcup, and in the later any skullcup would be considered equal value.  Only if you made them [TOOL:SKULLCUP:INORGANIC:PLATINUM] would it be separated enough to not be grouped with the other 2, but then it wouldn't be a goblet.

2. Yes. Should be one (or two) reaction(s) per type of skullcup. We also need a way for Orcs to get suitable skulls (because DF doesn't always supply seiges, etc. in the current version). The big question is "How quickly should the average Orcish fort be able to get lots of skulls to make cups?".
3. Fairly valuable, if we're using skulls of civ-forming species. We're talking huge prestige goods here. Open to notions, but perhaps values of 20 for silver and 50+ for gold? (n.b.: the base value of silver in Wonderwork is 12; for gold it is 48, and gold's harder to get now)

4. Orcs come back with the head of worthy enemies, maybe?

skulls would be easy to get off of animals, and there are several "civ" raids in the raid docks that you could add an item drop for skulls...

5. It certainly does envision a major shift.

yeah that would be a concern.  I'd rather have something that impacts the game play minimally... 

Yeah, I'm definately with you on bonemold/bloodsteel. In the Lord of the Rings - and, yes, I am influenced by this fantasy universe - Sauruman had his Orc chop down entire forests to feed his forges of war around the dark tower Orthanc. The Uruk-Hai marched out with good steel armor, and the ordinary orcs and miserable snagas made do with iron and rusty iron. That's one of the reasons why I was so fond of Smakemupagus' (or Meph's, not sure) original rendition of Orcish industry.

Yeah rusty iron hasn't been in masterwork at least since I joined the group in june last year.  Not sure what happened there, meph might know, but he is currently unavailable. and smakemupagus is beyond reach, he's not been online in 6 months.   There's actually entries all through the orc entity file saying rusty_iron was changed to iron, or rusty_iron coin was changed to bonemold coin, etc.  It would explain some of the other issues in the set up.  the molten forge has a 3 hematite(the rusty iron ore) to 10 iron bars which is rather sub par for iron, with the only benefit being chances for flux and copper ore to be produced beside it.  then its iron to pig iron, and pig iron to steel reactions are also sub par.  considering the smelter produces better and the metallurgist converts better.... there is no use in using these weaker reactions, unless your short on flux.... which you shouldn't if you have dwarf cells...  In either case rusty iron and bloodsteel along with all the leathers become useless once you get raiding going full steam.

Raiding is over rated since sieges can't be triggered/forced by raiding... Its also way unbalanced, dwarf outpost raiding will net you iron, steel, gold, silver, bronze... then you switch to raiding dwarf mountainhomes and ancient ruins.  the later 2 will earn you hundreds of metals, orichalcum and deep bronze gear, and ancient foundry blueprints.  Ancient Foundries let you make orichalcum bars and deep bronze bars.  With these 2 metals you can equip an orc with zero skill and he just about can survive against anything except lava, drowning, falling off a cliff, and 1 on 1 assaults on megabeasts/dragons (and the later he may survive by shear luck).

I guess I'm not fully understanding what you are meaning by skullcup....  I'm thinking drinking goblet made from an animal skull... which means the money would be constantly getting picked up and used to drink grog.

I'm seeing a cross between this...

this...

and this...


reply so the issue becomes this....
1. are they going to be able to drink from them?
2. are we going to add reactions to create each one?
3. what kid of material costs are we talking about... If you need a skull for each one, then thats going to end up being a lot of skulls, or are we going to have reduced the number needed for purchases (1 bar =500 coins, so if 1 bar = 1 skullcup, then prices will have to be reduce by 500).
4. how does that work with the current raiding system...  Orcs raid other societies and gather their coins.... melting coins down isn't productive as soo much of the raid goods get melted down already.
5. further skulls already have some use as totems for a couple of buildings, a few reactions, and sell items to the market... this is beginning to look like a rewrite of the orcs from their current format.

On the other hand i understand the concern over bonemold/bloodsteel  I'm not sure when the decision was made... I really don't like how bonemold/bloodsteel has become a raid item received from succubus as they have very little capacity for the stuff.  they are more slade/obsidian/glass society.  The current format is rather not magical as its processed through a few actually devoted to the job shops, bonemeal from a dismembering theater where training surgeons occurs, then a boneforge is where all the bonemeal is turned into bonemold and then into bloodsteel.  I see it more along the lines of orcs from the lord of the rings movie their armors and weapons being forged deep in the earth beneath the white tower with all the local trees and wildlife used to produce the material.

generally speaking the most complex is the orcs:
1. you have copper, silver, gold, bonemold, and platinum coins.
2. very few things that can be bought from the vendors can be sold back to the vendors.
3. what can be sold back is almost always sold at 1/2 what the buy value is.
4. each purchase and sell has its own reaction, the fact they are linked to skills(negotiation generally) cause the coins to have "quality" levels, making some coins of the same type extremely valuable for depot trades.
5. the value is set in stone and unidirectional, you can't break down from say bonemold to copper.  end products are bonemold and platinum
  2500 c->1,000 b
  500 s->1,000 b
  500 g->3,000 b
  5,000 c->1,000 s
  5,000 s->2,000 g *which directly would of been 10,000 b but through this makes 12,000 b
  5,000 g->2,000 p

6. there are 3 fake coins that can be converted into bonemold coins... zinc, lead, tin at 1:1 ratio.
7. a lot of orc society revolves around the movement of coins.  you need bonemold coins to raid, raids earn you coins in silver and gold which get dumped back into bonemold coins.  you need coins to buy certain things to advance your base, such as seed packs for the orc fort only crops that are used in making colored bricks from clay which are magma safe.
8. it takes a lot of work to understand the system and the incapacity to revert the coins into lesser coins, leave some players high and dry when they need say copper coins or silver coins and their entire stock is in bonemold and platinum.
9. In the base set up you can't mint bonemold coins at a forge.

Dwarves and Humans are very different.... most people don't even get involved in the dwarven shops, other then minting coins for guilding characters.  I personally don't have a lot of experience with the dwarves.

Humans have only 1 coin in their setup and a voucher system.  They have I think 15 shops(don't quote me its been a long time).  I just remember I could make a square room 25x25 and all the shops + a depot would fit around the outer edge leaving a 15x15 space in the middle.  I'd ring that with 3x3 shops then I'd have a quantum stock in the middle 9x9.

basically if you can buy it with a coin it generally sold at 1/2 the price unless it was considered "common"... the common items could be traded 1:1.  generally anything purchased could never be resold at better the 1:1.  you could sell or buy just about anything, but for somethings a voucher system would become involved.

vouchers would be a tool item made of the same material as the item sold, so say you sold a copper sword, you would get a copper voucher, well if you bought a sword it would cost you 2 vouchers, and the material of the voucher determined the material of the sword.  you could directly buy certain material vouchers at set coin prices(I believe they were gold coins).  basically with enough raw materials to sell, a player could eventually buy decent military goods and equip an army... many human players will wipe out an entire forest and sell it, then dig an open mine, sell the stone, wipe out the new growth forest, fish out the rivers and ponds, create huge ranches, etc.  just to produce raw resources to produce goods.

the main thing coin is used for in human societies though is the guild halls.  a lot of coin gets sucked up in building and purchasing permits to build up the various guild halls, each hall has 4 special shops that require permits to build. these are then used to produce large quantities of goods at rapid rates.

there thats all the knowledge I have for you.

Thanks for adding my mod to the list.  I'm working on a new version, hopefully to release mid February now, progress is slow as its a line by line edit of the files, but I appreciate being listed anywhere!

interesting conundrum.... I was moving through the orc reactions making a few interesting changes to modify the play so as to remove extranous steps (such as adding seeds to the reactions to make colored clay bricks because the original eats the plant and seed together.... requiring you to create tons of extra dimple dye to keep seed counts up for production.)  I was moving around the files and playing a world when I noticed there are 2 reactions for grinding stones in to sand at the millstone.


[REACTION:STONE_GRIND]
[NAME:Grind boulder into sand]
[BUILDING:MILLSTONE:CUSTOM_SHIFT_S]
[REAGENT:A:1:BOULDER:NONE:NONE:NONE][REACTION_CLASS:IS_STONE][WORTHLESS_STONE_ONLY]
[REAGENT:B:1:BOX:NONE:NONE:NONE][BAG][EMPTY][PRESERVE_REAGENT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:POWDER_MISC:NONE:INORGANIC:SAND_TAN][PRODUCT_DIMENSION:150][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:B]
[SKILL:MILLING]

[REACTION:STONE_GRIND_ORC]
[NAME:Grind rocks into sand]
[BUILDING:QUARRY_GHETTO_ORC:CUSTOM_SHIFT_S]
[BUILDING:MILLSTONE:CUSTOM_SHIFT_S]
[REAGENT:A:2:BOULDER:INORGANIC:WORTHLESS_STONE_ONLY]
[REAGENT:B:1:BOX:NONE:NONE:NONE][BAG][EMPTY][PRESERVE_REAGENT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:POWDER_MISC:NONE:INORGANIC:SAND_TAN][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:B]
[SKILL:STONECRAFT]

Both are accessible to Orcs, neither of them is properly set up to allow for detail setting... so you can't tell it what kind of rocks to use for grinding without elaborate stockpile settings...(I hate elaborate stockpile settings).  so my next thing to mess with is how to do that (I'm betting its similar to the wording on blocks to make it provide detail settings on them).

But the main issue is that we have 2 of them... I think we need to get rid of 1.  Either remove the orc reaction or remove the dwarf reaction from the orcs...  the dwarf version is 1 for 1 exchange compared to a 2 for 1 exchange in the orc version....and in one test this works great:


[REACTION:STONE_GRIND_ORC]
[NAME:Grind rocks into sand]
[BUILDING:QUARRY_GHETTO_ORC:CUSTOM_SHIFT_S]
[BUILDING:MILLSTONE:CUSTOM_SHIFT_S]
[REAGENT:A:1:BOULDER:NONE:INORGANIC:NONE][WORTHLESS_STONE_ONLY]
[REAGENT:B:1:BOX:NONE:NONE:NONE][BAG][EMPTY][PRESERVE_REAGENT]
[PRODUCT:100:1:POWDER_MISC:NONE:INORGANIC:SAND_TAN][PRODUCT_TO_CONTAINER:B]
[SKILL:STONECRAFT]


works like it should, runs only worthless marked stones and you can decide to only burn up certain stones by selecting detail and it works with workflow correctly!

Yep eliminators are sentient and can work for you... goblins and succubus like to bring them in trade caravans.  Also gorecyclops.  I hate both of them as they are not as direct in movement, and eliminators like to do stockpile jobs... they carry huge amounts of weight so they will roam around the map carrying 200+ items before finally dropping them on a stockpile...  socks when they pick up things you want riget now and they carry them for 2 months....