Bay 12 Games Forum

Aren't the fire crabs and imps dangerous enough with their flaming projectiles? Magma men are building destroyers.
Players already seal off their magma forges to prevent civilian deaths, so if current inhabitants could tunnel it's not really a huge difference.

Anyone who puts a floor grate over their magma source is completely safe from those  creatures forever.

As we all know, by the late game goblins aren't much of a hassle to deal with. The magma sea is also a rather boring place, with only three types of creatures calling it home, and it's completely safe to get infinite magma from them with only a glass grate. This does rely on invaders being able to dig, so we'll just have to assume that is in the game by the time this happens (It should be fairly easy to add, there are already versions of DFHack that add this).

Let's introduce our main topic - steel men. These would be an intelligent race organized similar to animal people and the same size as kobolds, but much physically tougher, being made of steel for their extremities and iron for their head and body and often using iron/steel weapons stolen from your fortress or other civs. They live in camps similar to animal people in the third cave layer, with stolen magma-safe objects. Because of these connections, they can attack kobold caves and worldgen fortresses, looting these sites of all magma-safe materials. Two more types of magma sea dwelling creatures would be added,  the magma jelly, which drowns out of magma and has no attack other than the default "push", and the lava worm, which can attack dwarves with its teeth and ability to spit globs of magma and live out of magma but is fragile.

You are probably wondering what these have to do with late-game sieges. Well, unlike kobolds, steel men are able to talk and are more organized than animal people and often their groups become close to goblin civs during worldgen. The leaders of the goblin civs they are affiliated to often have them join them on sieges where they attack sites from underneath while the goblins deal with the surface. Player fortresses can be raided by just the iron men with no associated goblin seige once they have discovered the second cave layer or the magma sea, and they are enlisted against forts by goblins once two or three sieges have failed. They can attack in two ways, the first usually used in raids and the second only in seiges.

The first is the simplest and simply involves them breaking any grates connected to the magma sea or and doors in the second or third cavern layers and coming in through there, killing everyone they can find with their stolen weapons, with a fair amount of lava worms coming with them. The second is more elaborate but possibly much more destructive. They are able to make a construction which restrains a magma jelly (it is not part of the construction but is stuck in the same tile, though the construction will be useless if it is killed) to use as a pump, making a passable, one-block pump that pumps straight upwards.

They will then begin building several upwards shafts that can go as high as the end of solid rock and the beginning of the soil/aquifer/glacier layer but usually stop at a lower level that are filled with magma using these pumps. Then, at close to the same time, sideways segements of these shafts will be dug into areas the AI thinks are most susceptible (large rooms and the tops of stairwells) flooding these areas with lava. The steel men will then enter the flooded area and steal any weapons or armor that are made of magma-safe materials and they deem are better than the ones they already have, before fighting with the survivors and triggering all intact switches they can find to open the gates for their goblin allies. If the shafts can be extended further and they are encountering resistance, the shafts will be extended to large rooms or stairwells that are still controlled by your dwarves. This will continue until they retreat (which may not happen even if the goblins give up) or all of your dwarves are dead.

I think that this would make the late game more of a challenge in fortress mode but might come into problems with artifacts becoming irrecoverable (though this might not be a problem). It would make security more spread out though the fortress instead of just near the surface (even if regular invaders are able to dig they would still usually only go for shallow targets), and encourage more modular designs and a more extensive water infrastructure deep underground to deal with magma leaks they create. This would still be a decent challenge even in the late game, and even if you were able to kill all of them in seconds it would still cause damage. It would also make magma less overpowered by making it more risky.

EDIT: Added suggestions and made the formatting better.

Being able to do this would make industry more efficient without having to designate tiny stockpiles next to everything.

Almost none of my military dorfs have their equipment. We have it and they are supposed to be wearing it, but aren't.

The announcement above just popped up. It was the same thing as the title, but ended in a period instead of a question mark. It zoomed to the location and caused a message box to come up, so I assume that it was important. However, I couldn't find anything about it. I am playing the most recent version of the Lazy Newb Pack, with no other mods. There is a very large (~120 including beak dogs and trolls) goblin siege going on right now, but no dwarves have died. Do you guys have any idea about what is going on?

Quote from: pikachu17 on July 12, 2016, 09:58:58 am

Quote from: Repseki on July 12, 2016, 09:55:39 am

Quote from: pikachu17 on July 12, 2016, 09:35:28 am

Part Question, Part suggestion. If you to improve this, try making a new suggestion thread for it.
so, Toady, Why did you make dragonfire deadlier? It makes it less fun, because you used to have a few turns while bleeding to death to fight the dragon. now if you get hit by the dragonfire, you instantly evaporate. This is neither fun nor !!FUN!!. could you please make it so the dragonfire is as hot as it used to be, but also affects hit shields. It's ridiculous that wooden shields still block dragonfire. nether-cap shields should be made useful for fighting a dragon, as it itself will cool you off.

Wouldn't having the dragonfire not make creatures go poof, while also effecting shields that block it like other items (which basically went poof by themselves even before the change), be just as bad as going poof in the first place? As anything but a fixed-temp shield would just melt/evaporate in your hand and mean death.

I understand having dragonfire blockable by wooden shields is kinda wonky, but dragons would just = death without some way of countering the breath attack. At least for the moment, before the artifact/magic stuff is fleshed out and all that.

But wouldn't adamantium be able to still block it? and if Dragon fire is un-buffed, then iron and steel can still block it(although in real life, steel armor + heat = more heat).
Not to mention Nether-cap would be great, as it would make you cooler as well, so the dragonfire has less of an effect. If a deep-elf were wearing full Nether-cap armor, but no shield, wouldn't he be invincible(from heat, as least)?

Actually dragonfire is hot enough to boil adamantine.
Realistically dragonfire is hot enough to start nuclear fusion and would probably turn the planet into a tiny star. At least until it ran out of fuel because there's not nearly enough easily fusable materials on Earth or an Earth-like planet to support being a star for very long. Toady went really overboard on the mythical materials. Adamantine pretty much breaking the laws of physics with how rigid and sharp it is, slade being denser than the core of the sun, and dragonfire being hotter than the surface of the sun (though not the core of the sun that's still far hotter).

50,000 degrees in any widely used temperature system or DF's units is not anywhere close enough to the temperatures required to start nuclear fusion. For that to happen, it would have to be millions of degrees. Dragonfire would be about the same temperature as lightning, so considering the fact that they are dragons, it is a fairly reasonable temperature.

There are currently very few ways that sites can be destroyed other than attacks. This should change, as it would add more variety to world gen and adventure mode, especially with the updates to artifacts in the near future (People descending on the ruins of destroyed fortresses, fighting over the looted scraps). With that in mind, here are some of the disasters that I want added and would have significant value. All of the times listed are average (so 2 Level 3 meteor impacts can happen in one year, but it is very unlikely).

-- Completely natural --

Hurricanes:
Occur mostly in warm shores and oceans. Fairly large and vary in intensity. Larger ones cause some flooding. A Level 1 hurricane would be fairly small, and only destroy trees, do fairly significant damage to forest retreats, and do minor damage to human and goblin settlements, as well as necromancer towers. These would occur several times per year. A Level 2 hurricane would knock over forests, do severe damage to forest retreats, do moderate damage to human, goblin, and necromancer sites, and cause flooding near the shore of the affected area. Dwarf and cave sites would only be damaged if the water went over them, which would cause them to flood, killing most of the occupants. Only one or two would occur every year. Level 3 hurricanes would obliterate forests and forest retreats, do severe damage to human, goblin, and necromancer sites, and cause flooding in all low-lying areas within a moderate distance to the affected shore. These would only occur once every few years.

Earthquakes:
Earthquakes can appear randomly, but are more likely in volcanic areas. Larger earthquakes have larger areas of effect, and will cause lower damage further away from the epicenter. If they are in or close to an ocean, they will cause a tsunami proportional to their size. A Level 1 earthquake will cause moderate damage to cave sites and minor damage to goblin and dwarf sites. These will occur a few times per year. A Level 2 earthquake will cause severe damage to cave sites, moderate damage to dwarf and goblin sites, and minor damage to stone-built human buildings. These will occur once every year or two. A Level 3 earthquake will almost completely destroy cave sites, do severe damage to dwarf and goblin sites, moderate damage to stone human buildings, and minor damage to wooden buildings and forest retreats. These will happen once every five to ten years.

Tsunamis:
Tsunamis appear near earthquakes at the same time as them. They have the same damage level as the earthquake that caused them. Tsunamis knock over and flood everything they run into. A Level 1 tsunami will only go a short distance inland and upwards. A Level 2 tsunami will go a larger distance inland or upwards, but a fortress on top of a mountain by the shore will still be fine. A Level 3 tsunami will flood a significant distance inland and go over all but the highest beachside mountains.

Meteor Impacts:
Meteor impacts are much rarer than the previous disasters, but are much more destructive.A Level 1 meteor impact will occur about once every 40 years. They explode in the atmosphere before hitting the ground, but the explosion is still very destructive. All trees, plants, and wooden buildings within a 25 region tile radius of the event will be burned to the ground, starting forest fires. Level 2 impacts occur about once every 250 years. They do hit the ground, causing a 2 to 3 region tile in radius crater to be produced. The crated will reach anywhere between the 2nd cavern layer and the magma sea, and the crater will have large amounts of native iron, aluminium, copper, silver, gold, and platinum in it. Everything within 15 region tiles will be utterly obliterated, and fires can start up to 40 region tiles away. All caverns within 10 embark tiles of the crater will be cleansed of all organics and have many cave-ins. The impact causes a Level 2 earthquake, as well as an ash cloud that lasts for one to two years within 150 region tiles of the site. Level 3 impacts only occur every 2500 years, and as such are rare in generated worlds. They will create an 8 to 13 area tile wide crater that reaches down to the magma sea. All structures within 30 region tiles will be destroyed, and fires can start up to 80 region tiles away. All caverns within 50 embark tiles will be cleansed of all life and suffer cave-ins. To simulate the huge earthquakes caused by the impact, Level 3 earthquakes will be created in hexagon patterns 15 and 60 region tiles away from the impact sites. Ash clouds that can last for three decades will cover all areas within 120 tiles of the event. As this will utterly obliterate smaller worlds, there will be an option to disable these in the basic world generation.

Volcanic Eruptions:
These will only happen in volcanic areas. Level 1 volcanic eruptions will cover places within 1 to 3 region tiles of them in igneous extrusive rock, and cause several forest fires. These happen once or twice a year. Level 2 volcanic eruptions cover everything within 3 to 5 embark tiles of them to be covered in igneous extrusive rock, cause more forest fires, and cover everything within 10 region tiles of them to be covered in volcanic ash, which kills outside crops on those tiles, but fertilizes them for the next 3 years. These will occur every 7 years. Level 3 volcanic eruptions will cover everything within 5 to 10 region tiles in igneous extrusive rock, start huge amounts of forest fires, and cover everything within 25 region tiles in volcanic ash. These also cause ash clouds that last for 1 year within 42 region tiles. These will occur every 50 years. As they are fairly destructive, Level 2 and 3 eruptions can be disabled in basic world generation.

Ash Clouds:
Ash clouds are created by meteor impacts and extremely large forest fires. They block out the sun, causing crop growth to be reduced by 50%. They also cause more precipitation, as the smoke particles provide nucleation sites for water droplets.

Droughts:
Droughts can last for a variable amount of time. Level 1 droughts cause streams to dry up, rain to stop, and outdoor crop production to decrease by 33.4%. These occur a few times per year. Level 2 droughts cause both streams and rivers to dry up, rain to stop, and outdoor crop yields to be reduced by 75%. These occur once every 3 years.

-- Crop Yield Effects --
Civilizations will devote certain parts of their populations to their military, manufacturing, building, gathering supplies, and food acquisition (farming, hunting, and gathering). A certain amount of food is required for the population to stay stable. If not enough food is being produced, workers will be transferred to food acquisition. If over 85% of the population is getting food, other options will be considered. These options include, in order of preference, building more farms (if applicable), invading neighbors, devoting all adults to food acquisition, eating pets and vermin, and letting the least useful members of the site starve to death.

-- Disasters Caused By Nature Or Sentients --

Wildfires:
Wildfires can be created by the events above, randomly in dry areas, or by burning sites. Goblin, human, and dwarf armies can also create wildfires to block off enemy troops from an area or simply to kill them. If less than 49 connected region tiles are on fire, the fire can only spread to adjacent flammable (forests, grasslands) region tiles. If over 49 but under 256 connected region tiles are on fire, the fire can go over one region tile of non-flammable stuff. If it is larger than 256 tiles, it will be able to cross up to 3 region tiles. Areas that have been recently burnt will have all flammable objects and wooden structures destroyed, have lumps of charcoal everywhere, and are covered in ash.

Floods:
Floods can be created randomly, with a higher chance in areas with high precipitation and low drainage. They can also be created by dwarf and human armies after destroying a site or to block off/kill enemy armies. Any structure at or below the area affected by the flood will be flooded, killing its inhabitants. Floods tend to follow rivers and valleys to lower areas and oceans, and will not go up hills and mountains.

Plagues:
Plagues can be randomly occurring, created by gods and demons, or made by some necromancers. Plagues have different infectivity, transmission methods, incubation times, and symptoms. These affect how far and fast they spread, what species they can infect, and their fatality rates. A disease that kills its victims before spreading will not spread at all, while one that has very high infectivity and mild symptoms and/or a long incubation period will spread very far and fast. Civilizations that are near a spreading plague may quarantine themselves, stopping trade and military activity for a time but reducing their chance of infection.

Undead Plagues:
Undead plagues can also occur naturally, be created by a god or demon, or made by a necromancer, but are much rarer than regular plagues. They can have different modes of infection, time that the infection takes until zombification, and the strengths and weaknesses of the resulting undead. The zombies also might be able to swim, which will result in them crossing oceans to other landmasses. The plague will only be able to infect one species, but the zombies will be hostile to all life. They also form hordes, which can lead to large amounts of fun if 300 fast, strong, climbing zombies swarm your fortress a few months after embark.

I am about to hit the character limit, so I will talk about genocides in the comments.