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Messages - McDoomhammer

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751
quote:
Originally posted by Derakon:
<STRONG>
Some skills that currently have no associated quality levels (but still generate products, so no cheesemaking, etc. or military skills):
* Animal training
* Tanning
* Butchery
* Wood burning/Furnace operating/Potash making/Lye making
* Milling
* Brewing
* Plant Processing

All of these make for pretty useless legendary dwarves, and at least some of them can be made legendary through moods. Some of them at least could have associated quality levels, and they should - tanning should work like weaving does, and you could have varying levels of brew quality. The others, in my opinion, should not be eligible for mood-based boosting; some other skill should be picked to raise to legendary instead.</STRONG>



Not a bad idea in principle, but in practice I fear it would imbalance the game.  multiplying the amount of stuff you get or the value of already valuable things, that sort of stuff.  I dunno.


752
Yes, they say "look at him, his nose is huge".

quote:
Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>with magic there will be more items that by any definition of the word could be called "artefacts";

</STRONG>


We don't know that.  I'm currently gravitating towards the opinion that dwarven magic should be restricted to artifacts, with perhaps some interesting alchemy.  And as for 'representation', it's not like this game is programmed democratically.  Plus even if you accept the premise that D&D is the preferred mode of fantasy gaming, that doesn't mean DF should be like D&D.  That's what D&D is for.


753
Hmm.  That might actually work, at least for some of the professions.  Still not a huge amount you can do with cheese.  And it shouldn't do too much to erode the enjoyable randomness of artifacts.  Regardless, it's all quite a long way off at the moment.

You really do have a very big nose.


754
quote:
Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>^ Atm, you're basically getting excited about an item having the text badge "artefact". I'm looking forward to an artefact being an item of power and magic. One currently favoured (speculative) flavour of dwarven magic is artificing, and that will have the consequence of many such. Then the current artefacts will probably simply be such of higher value or power. That is as it should be, imo.</STRONG>

Putting aside the vaguely condescending comments about getting excited, yes, I agree... I'm looking forward to practical magic properties too, and while I don't know what's planned, I think that the mood-artifact system as it now stands will continue to work well with magic effects simply plugged into it.

I just don't see the need to make any legendary dwarf churn out artifacts 'periodically', or for strange moods to result in legendary hunters and farmers and cheesemakers.


755
More of a Spitfire.  I'm English myself, and can't account for my own preference for the American-favoured form.

Anyway, back to the actual discussion:

quote:
It fits and goes well with the current game model, it extends the game play logically without revolutionising it, it appreciates the skills, and brings a diversity to the game.

As I have previously argued, quite the contrarary.  The game is stunningly diverse already- the skills are already there, after all.  Trying to extend the 'mood' effects into skills unrelated to crafting radically alters the feel of the dwarves, and makes the skills unnecessarily uniform in a way that's not logical at all.

quote:
About legendaries producing masterful items, sure, let's call them "masterworks" rather than artefacts (which however is an artificial distinction). When and if artificing magic is incorporated, then this will shift anyway. Anyway, this is a mere terminological issue, and a relatively minor one, not a fundamental gameplay deficiency.

Now you're really making no sense.  The distinction is not artificial at all, Masterwork items and legendary artifacts are completely different things.  Masterfully-crafted items are just the highest quality of mundane item; they're not named, they're not the products of moods, they function just like any other item for purposes of use, decoration and trading.   They're significantly better and more expensive even than the next step down the quality heirarchy, I think they have the creator's name quoted in their view description, and you do get a single small announcement when one is created.  You don't have to be legendary to create them, but it helps and legendary craftsdwarves will make them very frequently.
In other words, they are already there, filling the role you suggest for artifacts, without ruining artifacts.

I still have no idea what you're trying to say about magic, things shifting, or "gameplay deficiencies".


756
quote:
1)Any skill can be boosted to legendary by a mood
2)All moods generate an item of some type
3)The primary benefit of a mood is the skill, not the item

In order:  
1) Disagree.  Once again- Dwarves are renowned crafters, not ninjas, farmers or idiot savants.  The set-up is the way it is for a reason.  It would ruin the dwarfy flavour to modify it so drastically.  Dwarves can attain renown in any field the usual way, but moods are there to make them special.

2) Agree in principle for the aforementioned reason, disagree with your specifics.  It's already possible for a ranger to get a mood and make a megabeast-skin item.  But creating something from hydra leather you didn't previously have, or discovering ore where it shouldn't be, or stumbling across a heretofore undiscovered plant, are just silly.  The latter is a matter of pure luck and nothing to do with skill; the former completely impossible no matter how good you are; and the middle one both.  (Oh, and tower-caps are giant mushrooms, they don't have seeds).

3) Disagree.  At the risk of sounding like a stuck cliche... dwarves are all about the shiny artifacts.  Fame is just a nice side benefit.

All that said, you are right about masterwork items.  


Mikademus:

quote:
Not necessarily. Atm artefacts are just curious things with bizarre descriptions and sometimes high retail price. I'd prefer a legendary artificer that creates lesser-valued magical tolls and weapons. I think you're a bit too myopic in how you perceive "artefacts", if dwarven magic is implemented in the way currently favoured by the forum dwellers then more or less deliberate artificing will be part of the game (what is a magic object if not an artefact?). It is really rather a question more nuanced artefacts. Just because there will be more of them does not mean that you will be flooded by immensly powerful ones.

You're not making a lot of sense.  I don't see how the possible future magical properties of artifacts (and it is artifacts, an artEfact is a statistical anomaly) has anything to do with them being created at will, it just sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too.  I think the current system, being wreathed in magic and mystery, suits the addition of magic as is just fine, and intentionally so.  "changing it won't necessarily blow up in our faces" is hardly a good argument for; you will have to explain better to us myopia-sufferers what these nuances are and what difference that makes.  

And it's not just direct in-game value that would be lost- as it is, artifacts are cool, because they're rare and random.  It's exciting to see what your dorfs produce, and I bet there's no-one here who doesn't read the artifact description as soon as each one is finished, to be either excited or disappointed at the result.  A genuine emotional investment in the game, however small.  Do you understand how rare and important that is?  Take a fort with five or ten legendary workers, each knocking out an artifact every season... even every year... and they'd go from being something the player genuinely cares about to, well, spam.  That would be nothing short of criminal.


757
Agreed, and no to the rest, too, from me.  The benefit of being a legendary ambusher is and should remain that you're really really really good at, y'know, ambushing.  Strange moods should be about making things and making things only.  These are dwarves- dwarves make amazing shiny things.  It's what they do.  Being inspied to 'gain weird archery skills' is completely incongruous, it turns them from a race with wonderous crafting abilities to a race of insanely able savants-for-no-reason.  Mystic tattoos can be left to the player's imagination.

758
DF Suggestions / Re: A new metal: Tungsten
« on: April 13, 2008, 08:12:00 am »
I'll second the notion that adding extra magic metals devalues Adamanti-whatever, and I can't really see the benefit at the moment.  Is steel not good enough?

I could get behind the addition of a real-life variant steel made using glass, though.


759
DF Suggestions / Re: A new metal: Tungsten
« on: April 12, 2008, 06:26:00 pm »
Okay, sorry.  The remark made me a bit touchy.

760
DF Suggestions / Re: A new metal: Tungsten
« on: April 12, 2008, 02:15:00 pm »
quote:
but lets throw reality aside to make a realistic game :P  

You kind of answered that yourself.  The problem is that dwarves can't possibly work it (Or find enough?  I don't know how rare it is), not just its practicality for crafting weapons or lack thereof.


761
DF Suggestions / Re: A new metal: Tungsten
« on: April 12, 2008, 06:55:00 am »
quote:
Originally posted by jryan:
<STRONG>Hmmm... I'm starting to realize that everyone is focused on making Tungsten as realiztic as possible regardless of how unrealistic the metals already in the game are.

I mean, I had a dwarf that made a solid gold flood gate artifact and wielded it as a weapon.... alongside a dwarf wielding an obsidian cabinet artifact.  Both items weigh a lot more than a steel sword.  Furthermore, by the time they reached high strength and agility they weren't slowed at all by the huge burden of these items.  So tell me again how even pure tungsten swords, which would weigh about 3.5 times as much as an iron sword, would be less practical than a solid gold flood gate?

And the "fire resistence" was an idea I had based on tungsten's density and high melting point.  I was just trying to find an in-game use for this interesting property of tungsten.  If you want my thought process for why this characteristic was added it's becauise dense metal absorbs more heat and transferes heat slower than less dense metals.... so fire hitting tungsten armor would take a longer time to get hot to the touch, but would stay warmer longer.  Therefor, dense metal can be thought of as insulation when it comes to flash heat.

[ April 10, 2008: Message edited by: jryan ]</STRONG>


Well, apart from the fact that dwarves no longer hang onto and wield artifacts in the new release, so what?  You're supporting your argument with nothing but anomalous quirks, artefacts of the game's alpha state.  "It's already unrealistic, let's break it some more" stacks up pretty poorly as an argument.  Within the bounds of the fantasy setting and practicality, the goal is more realism.

As for fire-resistant armour... remember that it's just a breastplate, not a hazmat suit.  It doesn't matter if it's hot to the touch, its mere presence will not prevent enough heat to fry the dwarf inside from bypassing it.


762
DF Suggestions / Re: Wood decay, has it been suggested before?
« on: February 03, 2008, 02:32:00 pm »
Forget cats.  Pet anteaters FTW!

763
DF Suggestions / Re: very, very minor
« on: February 03, 2008, 10:20:00 am »
Can't believe I missed that.  thanks.

764
DF Suggestions / very, very minor
« on: February 03, 2008, 09:26:00 am »
I just really want to see this.  Can the dwarves invent a word that translates as "Doom"?  Pretty please?

765
DF Suggestions / Re: Natural Gas and Ventilation shafts....
« on: February 04, 2008, 04:33:00 am »
quote:
Originally posted by Keldor:
<STRONG> smoking (as in on fire XD) dwarves.</STRONG>

It really IS bad for you.


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