Bay 12 Games Forum

JezaGaia, I'd ask Starver about precise defining features of asociability, but I consider myself unsociable because I don't really care about social interaction, I can take it or leave it really, whereas the term antisocial sounds like a strong aversion to it.

English not being my first or even second language that's way too in depth for me.

What I can say is that ingame some dwarves don't like to have friends but are not private meaning I suppose they don't mind crowds and interacting with a lot of people but they want them to remain simple acquaintances, have an emotional separation from them, not get invested in the relationship if you will.
And I would suppose those people might like to interact from time to time but on their terms and on a superficial manner only.
If someone was to try and crowd them get too close emotionally they wouldn't like that and that would bother them.

I'd say a constant mood debuff for antisocial folk just having friends is a bit harsh, but they could get thoughts like "Urist felt annoyed after being pestered by others" from having lots of unwanted conversations in a short span of time (e.g. an acquaintance tries to befriend them), and "Urist felt satisfied after some peace and quiet" if they've spent a long time without any conversations. Sounds weird that they're getting lonely while they have non-sociable, private personalities, but it's possible that they still value family and friends highly, every dwarven civ I've seen favours those values, personal values rarely stray too far from the civ's norm, and if you check in adventure mode character creation you'll see those values actually have associated needs.

I was referencing to having some sort of annoyance, the strength of it I leave to Toady to decide he knows how to balance his game I know too little to have an opinion on that

Positive thoughts from personalised rooms for more private residents sounds like a good idea, though it'd probably take some work to balance, since communal dining room value usually shoots up to legendary levels fairly quick due to all the tables and chairs, possibly making bad thoughts from communal dining/good thoughts from private dining irrelevant.

Well I don't know about that I have a legendary dining room and still have a dwarf that is private doesn't care for luxury doesn't handle stress well and a tendency towards getting depressed. He has only neutral thoughts about the legendary dinning room but a lot of negative thoughts about being forced to eat on a crowded table and is getting a very high stress level.
So I would think that it's not as simple as legendary > privacy.
Also while it still might be relevant in a young fort, once you have the means to make some gold tables and legendary engrave the walls/floors well I would suppose it's not too hard to have those small rooms luxurious enough to also get good thoughts.

I'd also call a personal/private temple a shrine rather than a chapel, but that's probably just personal preference.

As before English is not my first language, so as for the name I have no preference

The military dwarf issue might be mitigated by an increased interaction radius, unless nobody engages in social interaction during jobs, and if that's the case that kinda has to change otherwise the 'chatting with friends without interrupting jobs' thing doesn't work.

Agreed, my impression at the moment is that they don't engage in social interaction during jobs, because as I said the radius should not matter in such a small room. Many share the same square and still I don't see any interactions but I could be mistaken.

Some things I wish we had and couldn't find any suggestion or prevision on are :

-Being able to broker peace with a civ we're at war with.
Obviously only possible once you've become the capital and have a king/queen.
Would send out the outpost liaison with an escort. As for the chances of the peace happening it would depend on how the war goes on a military level plus the skill of your liaison. Add to that some options like offerings (release prisoners, tribute and so on) or demands (same).
The size of the escort you're sending could also count maybe , as an intimidation factor ?

-Being able to make peaceful contact with a civ.
At the moment the only options I have with any "no contact" civilization is to raid, at best I can do it discretely and not start a war but that won't create a diplomatic relationship either.
I don't know if that should require a certain government level or not, after all maybe your outpost was  specifically requested to be created for that purpose so even at the expedition leader you should have the option ? But maybe you don't represent your civilization well enough until you have a dignitary of high enough level to impress ? Maybe you can do it at any level but then you can only talk to a group of the same level ?
So if you have just an expedition leader you could send an envoy to small hamlets and such without any government on site only etc ?

-Being able to send a diplomat (outpost liaison if you're the capital otherwise another title should be created probably) and collect news from the civilizations you have contacts with and of course are at peace with.
Would Send out that diplomat with a small escort and in the details you could specify if it's just ask for any news, ask news on a specific topic like say detail on the goblin civ you plan to raid, maybe they know detailed numbers or some information that could help you have an advantage or maybe you want to ask about artifacts they know of but it could be as detailed as asking about a specific artifact you know exists but don't know where it is.

-Being able to send out a spy that will pretend being someone else and infiltrate a civ you're at war with to gather intel.Here is a good use for the liar skill

-Being able to broker trade exchanges with other civilizations.

1-Say you're trading with human civ A at the moment but make contact with CIV B that is bigger and/or has some goods you need, you could send a  guild representative with a small escort to broker an agreement with that civilization. Either you stop trading with A to trade with B instead or you can have A and B trade with you at the same time ? Would have to be balanced and might depend on the fort wealth ?
But it could also be used in other circumstances.
2-You're now the capital and want to request certain items from other cities in your own civilization to be sent in the next caravan. A price could be determined in advance.
3-You made a trade agreement with the elves or humans and asked for say tons of wood because you had none in your map or didn't want to anger the elves (you fool !) but circumstances have changed, you've broken into a cavern and have a source of wood or you came to your senses and killed all the elves so you can cut down your trees in peace so wood is not needed anymore.
Or you just have a mood that requires something or need now tons of later for some new project.
So you need to modify the existing agreement. Of course it requires your representative arriving say 1 month or more before the caravan leaves and you need to promise a compensation and/or promise to buy a certain amount agreed in advance but the change can be made.
4-You angered the elves you're trading with by trying to sell them some food in a wood barrel and they don't want to trade anymore, unfortunately you just learned they have some giant grizzly bears that would be hugely useful in your army as war animals and only they can provide them, you could send a guild representative with an apology and a promise for a tree cutting agreement and/or some offerings (would require some sort of animals to carry it and if dealing with humans you could even use a wagon).
But if this is too complicated the offering would be something they would pick up themselves next time they come to trade with you.

-Being able to send a scholar/crafstdwarf/singer/poet to be an apprentice in another civ (I know it's been requested) but also send a scribe make copies of some books to add to your library. Might require them to bring some copies of your own books in exchange (haven't seen that one).
It might require also a diplomat to be sent beforehand to broker the agreement before sending the apprentice and might require some offering to be made, copy of books being just an example.

The feature that I most wish existed is the ability to commission a book on a certain topic.
It could be done by a noble but there also should be an option for the player to do so.

And also an option to ask the scribes to copy a book immediately, for example I have one of the monster slayers residing in my fort that has a book, I don't want to steal it but I would like to ahve copies of it for my library.
She has been in the fort for 8 years and I have 6 scribes and sadly none has ever made a copy of said book

Will check the youtube video, but I'm glad he considers it at all.
I would love this feature and not just for retired adventurers.
 
I'm playing a fortress that began at year 5, trying to create a huge library and I would love to be able to retire after 20 or 25 years once everything is running smoothly and then generate a couple hundreds years of worldgen and see what impact my fortress had on the work around.

Heck you could even do that with the world as it was before you embarked using a backup save of the world then and compare both.


And of course you could then embark in another site using the same civ but 200 years after the first embark and see descendants of your old dwarves migrate to your new fort.

That would be epic !

I've mostly read all pages but I'll admit it was not in much detail so forgive me if I state something already said.

I came to this thread because being able to know how my dwarves are related is important to me but I also would be very interested in being able to know of their family line without having to spend hours in legends and having family based last names is how we do it in real life so it seemed logical to use the same in DF.

However from what I read I understand hos it wouldn't work very well having too many duplicates for one and also too few last names from the worldgen and as such very few generations removed we would have only a couple last names remaining defeating the purpose of having them inn the first place.

So I would like to add my vote to these two ideas I picked in the previous pages : 

1-Having a clerck that keeps track of lineage and being able to check it on a specific screen in fortress mode. If it was also added to legends it would be great of course but the point is being able to see it by staying in fortress mode.
Ideally you would have a way to know if a dwarf in said lineage is alive or dead or undead (if it's known) but also his or her actual location (if ti's known).

2- Having some kind of lastname convention found that prevents having only very few of them still alive after a couple of generations.
Being part Latin American and part Spanish my vote goes to Double-barrelled surnames like described below

At worldgen each dwarf gets Firstname Lastname at random just like it's already done.
Say Urist1 A and Urist2 B marry , they become Urist1 A and Urist2 B of A (short for spouse of A). When they have kids they'll be LittleUrist A B
If you go 1 more generation LittleUrist A B marries OtherUrist C D and they become LittleUrist  A B and OtherUrist C of A and their kids will be AnotherUrist A C and so on and so forth.


Whose last name is predominant in real life is of course the father's but in DF it could be  chosen on the following criteria in order :

-One is noble and not the other, noble takes precedence.
-Both are nobles then the highest rank is chosen
-Same rank (nobles or not) then the highest family prestige (will elaborate further down)
-Same rank (nobles or not) and same prestige  : does one care about lineage more than the other. OF course that implies a new trait for dwarves regarding lineage.
-Lastly if no factor can be determined, at random.


Prestige : it could be a weight attached to every lastname that would be increased or decreased every time something significant happens to someone wearing it.

Adding points in increasing order when :

Creating mastercrafts
Being grandmaster in a skill
Being a Noble the higher the rank the more points
Writing a book
Creating an artifact (books excluded)
Defeating ennemies , a tiny bonus for killing a giant bat , bigger if said bat has a name and then in order named ennemies during raids/sieges, megabeasts (the more famous the more points), forgotten beasts (the more famous the more points), demons
Any other idea welcome

Removing points in increasing order when

punished in the justice system for minor crimes (brawls, vandalims etc), the bigger the crime/punishment the more points removed
Killing a pet
Killing a civilian
Killing a noble to usurp a lawfully given title
Being cursed
Becoming a necromancer
Any other idea welcome

Based on prestige only in my naming convention examples A would have more prestige than B at the time of the marriage and same with C having more than D. It may happen than by the time AB and CD marry B or D have become way more prestigious that wouldn't be taken into consideration as it's only A and C that will be passed on to the progeny as such it's the "primary" lastname that should get the prestige increase or decrease as it's the one that will be propagated.

So say AB does something grand  A will get a bonus but if BA is the one doing the deed it's B that is impacted.


Hope this was not too convoluted and that I manged to explain it clearly. It's not always easy as English is not my first language (or even the second :p  )

Thank you very much I'll try that and if it fails I'll go to DFHack thread.

My biggest problem with the new memories is that I have no practical way to manage my dwarves to prevent the squeamish ones to see bodies.

I have 200+ dwarves, I have to go to each of them and check his thoughts to see if they were traumatized by seeing a corpse, if so they have to be removed from hauling refuse because I have no way to tell them to only haul non scary refuse like wool for example and even then if they go to the butcher workshop to get that wool they might see an animal body and freak oh or go dispose of some vermin remains and go to my secluded walled off refuse pile where the bodies are.
I also obviously have to remove them from the cleaning crew, because they could be sent cleaning blood and some body parts could still be there.
Oh and don't forget push/pulling vehicles because you never know what will be in them.
Oh and of course remove him from butchering/tanning too.

Then once I've done that with the 200+ dwarves once I have to do it again every season or so because sometimes one dwarf was not showing anything just by pure luck (hand't had contact with those bodies yet) but it changed since.

Then comes an invasion and I fight it off, ok so make sure to forbid all dead items because those squeamish dwarves are still on the list of item haulers and could have a fright, wait for weeks that all the bodies have been buried/disposed off in my enclosed garbage pile and then painstakingly unforbid everything. But , wait that dwarf still got a fright going to the river to fish/get back some of our ammunition that were from before the siege or get some item I hadn't seen that was from before the siege....

So having some dwarves in your fort that aren't fit to stand the stress of dead bodies, that's ok, if I have a practical way to manage it.

First part of the equation being having a specific "flag" in the dwarves personality that would let me know that one cannot see bodies, but this one will get used to it in time if there is no other stress in his life and this one doesn't care. Also if a migrant comes with a butcher job active, he cannot be squeamish, wouldn't make sense.Same with any in the medical profession or with high fighting skills.

Second would be a way to prevent them from going near those bodies, maybe a "job" that if activated would prevent the dwarf to do anything related to death ? Like hauling items would be on but they wouldn't haul items from dead bodies, would only haul "refuse" like wool etc from stockpiles that have no body parts allowed, avoid the butcher workshop and  that sort of thing ?

Another idea would be to have a non military way to train discipline and/or some psychologists on hand to deal with the traumatized dwarves. There's a consoler skill that could be useful, right ?
Having them getting stressed/horrified is ok if I have a way to prevent it (most of the time) and undo the damage when it still happens.

So I tried making different worlds and it was not consistent, sometimes I had shirt mails sometimes not, never had leather armor and I also noticed I was missing tunics even in clothing.

I tried your advice adn changed COMMON by FORCED, did it for everything (armor/helms/legs etc) and it seems to be working perfectly thank you SO much !