Bay 12 Games Forum

ToonyMan:

@Toaster:
Interesting, I didn't think of two mafia teams. The other mafia team would surely be suspicious of two people claiming each other though? 4mask and IcyTea would be completely outed, not that I would put it past them. Anti-town and anti-mafia behavior!

Yeah, that would be an oddball claim.  In a world where there are indeed two mafia teams, 4maskwolf and IcyTea are priority targets as either high-tier townies or the Big Unknown Enemy Scum.  That said, if they are actually town, then killing one practically confirms the other, assuming useful role flips in this game.  Heading further down this road is getting deep into the WIFOM, so I'd rather analyze their behavior.  I've already worked IcyTea some, and now 4mask has finally given me something to work with.



4maskwolf:

Quote from: Toaster on December 28, 2020, 07:57:08 pm

I find it very believable that IcyTea and 4mask are on the same team.  Which team... my gut's trying to tell me that we have two mafia teams here.

Side note: If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that mafia!IC and mafia!4mask, knowing for a fact that there's another scum team out there (since our scum team would only have two members but webadict said there were four scum), would just decide "let's claim a size two mason team, the exact size of the team the other scum team is looking for, on D1 while under no pressure" and just assume that everything would work out for us?

Sounds like suicide with extra steps tbh.

See, that's the biggest point in your favor right now.  The biggest counterpoint is that... you two claimed at all.  It's a thing that is out there for all the world to see, and as far as I can tell, no one disbelieves that you two are tied together somehow.  I think some of the more oddball theories like dayconvert cult are bad, but that doesn't mean I think your alignment is town.  It does mean that everything either of you does is cast through the lens of this claim.

Anyway, I've been waiting for your reads on those two specifically because of this post and your earlier vote on Fallacy.  I wanted to compare the two picks you weren't voting to your case on the one to whom you were voting, as well as your past vote on Fallacy, and my results are mixed.  Your read on Fallacy seems developed, and consistent enough of your behavior that I'm fine with it.

But what about Jim?  Turns out I'm not the only one who asked you about that post...

Quote from: 4maskwolf on December 27, 2020, 03:30:41 pm

Quote from: Luckyowl on December 27, 2020, 03:20:57 pm

4maskwolf: do you wanna play parchesi with me? I'll start with a simple question. Who do you think might be the Mafioso?

Okay yeah if I'm gonna roast people I deserve to have it thrown back in my face.

So far my scumpicks are Jim Groovester and Toonyman.  Toaster and Nirur Torir have managed to slip beneath my notice this game and I need to go take a look over them later today.  Others are all neutral, town, or Fallacy who I need to give a full reread to.

What has Jim Groovester and ToonyMan have done that seems scummy so far?

... and you never answered LuckyOwl either.  Why?  You seem very hesitant to talk about Jim other than to call him scum.  In fact, this post and this post seem to be your only other mentions of him prior to recently, and it's just to call him scum.  After repeatedly prodding you, I get this post and...

I already noted that I'm not satisfied with saying much of anything about Jim.

Except you're content with calling him scum three times.  It's bugging me, and I had you pegged for a reread before you dropped the mason claim anyway; my mental state yesterday that you might be leaning scum.  The mason claim spun that sideways and I'm no longer sure, but you consistently fail to give a good answer here.  You're waffling awfully hard on if Jim is scum or not.

Fallacy:

Quote from: Toaster on December 28, 2020, 07:57:08 pm

You're still doing it.  Are you getting anything out of it?  At this point you should be able to provide examples.

I'm pretty sure I already answered this question.

Damned if I see an answer anywhere.


Nirur:

Quote from: Toaster on December 27, 2020, 10:32:27 am

Oh.  Well, I did respond to that post here.  Did you want more?   Like I said, I'm looking at people besides you.  I like to ask lots of questions, and I'm doing that to a broad spectrum of people.  I no longer find you the scummiest, for example; like I said, Tric's anti-town mindset got my vote onto him.  I certainly wouldn't cry if you were lynched, but I have a better choice.

How do you feel about Tric's roleclaim?

It sounds like a believable narrative to me, and I'm starting to have doubts.

Speaking of, I'm not sure I ever (directly) answered this.  I would have thought my vote on him (which came before this post) would have made it fairly clear, but I guess not.  I believe that he is the source of hats, and that he wants hats.  I don't find his alignment claim believable.

Quote from: Vector on December 27, 2020, 07:44:13 pm

Your uncertainty in this case makes me inclined to assume that the voting shenanigans are localized on you.

Not to my knowledge.
At the time, I thought Tric lynchable enough to draw a big bandwagon. I don't consider it likely that someone can force a hammer at 7 votes, but felt it worth casting a spiritual instead of mechanical vote to further minimize an unexpectedly early end to D1.

If you're happy with a Tric lynch, why not be okay with a surprise hammer?  Someone pulling said surprise hammer will be very informative, both in that it exists and seeing motivations behind it.

4maskwolf:

Rolefishing players who, by your own admission, you believe to probably be masons and have an understandable, if not one your agree with, reason to claim when they did.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 28, 2020, 04:13:44 pm

I think I could believe that, which is really frustrating since I find it incredibly humiliating against my townplay to be the vote candidate of masons. I definitely disagree with both of your plays this day, but I see why you want me dead right now.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 28, 2020, 03:37:19 pm

I think it's fairly likely you are masons, and it baffles me you wouldn't claim at the beginning of a day if this is true. Why did IcyTea self-vote when you could confirm each other at the start of today? I'm not super familiar with mason play, but I believe that's the right play, or at least hold off on claiming today if you want to be sneaky.

It's rolefishing when he's asking you about something you've claimed?  Claimed unprovoked, at that?


Actually, let me go ahead and question it myself.  Did you two start the game masoned?


More coming

IcyTea:

Quote from: Toaster on December 27, 2020, 05:13:40 pm

I wanted to know what you were actually doing or thinking.  The information I wanted is what you were thinking at the time, which I suppose I got.

--

You're far from trustworthy but I'm not convinced you're scum.

Did you get the information you wanted, or are you uncertain of your read? Those are mutually exclusive.

I no longer think your "slip" was actually a scum slip, and that's why I voted you.  I don't have any substantive reasons to suspect you any more.



Leafsnail:  Do you have anything on anyone other than Tric?  I saw you mention Vector, but you've not done a damn thing to develop that.  Why?



4maskwolf:  Could I get your current reads of Jim and Fallacy, please?

Oh.  Well, I did respond to that post here.  Did you want more?   Like I said, I'm looking at people besides you.  I like to ask lots of questions, and I'm doing that to a broad spectrum of people.  I no longer find you the scummiest, for example; like I said, Tric's anti-town mindset got my vote onto him.  I certainly wouldn't cry if you were lynched, but I have a better choice.

And I guess I understand what you're saying in the latter half, but until I'm convinced 100% a player is town (which may never happen), they're not completely off the hook.

Vector:  Did you used to have a cup of tea as an avatar?  I've misread about four of IcyTea's posts as yours now and it keeps getting me confused.



Webadict:  Are there four mafia and/or non-town players?  The opening flavor mentions four silhouettes.  If a Jester is lynched, does it end the game or do they just win and leave?

Can we get a LurkerTracker?



LuckyOwl:

Toaster: You're right. I'm not really helping just trying to show how townie I am.

If you want to impress your towncred upon me, go hunt some scum.

And what's wrong with trust me? If I hadn't said that would you have trust me? I think you're just overthinking such a small habit word I said. Like honestly. But yeah I tend to play like this early on and in day 2 contribute on the conversation with actual evidence to talk about.

No, but it's a saying I find relevant.  And I'll believe it when I see it.

Putting pressure on someone is anti-town especially if you're trying to do it early on.

This is the opposite of true.  The opposite is true.


IcyTea:

Quote from: Toaster on December 26, 2020, 11:57:12 am

Quote from: IcyTea31 on December 26, 2020, 12:00:20 am

Roles might not be alignment-indicative, but I'll say the role name is a really damning one.

That bit I underlined: you really think a role name a player submitted before the game started is going to have any influence on their alignment?

This was a breadcrumb to tell that I knew what was in the contract before its real text was posted, because the name in question literally is damning. If you read the whole sentence, you'd know I don't. Is looking for "slips" all you do on D1?

In fact, if you care who I suspect and where my vote is so much, let's put it on you: Toaster. If you're not going to develop your cases to ascertain their truths and don't even care about figuring out factual matters, I don't see how your mindset is in anyway town-sided.

No, but I'm not going to look a gift slip in the mouth.

Way better than seeing it unused, actually.  And matters are developing; it's not just you I have my eyes on.


TricMagic:

As a note, people can give hats to others using an action, even in the day. So giving them to me makes more sense than hoarding them. Though I kinda expect you will get lynched Icytea. I expected a faster response.

Boy howdy are you sure expecting people to trust you as solid gold.

Either way, I have a perfectly good reason to lynch Icytea no matter my alignment. There is a 2/3 chance of getting a good hat out of it. The --- is more random to me and useful in the hands of the Mafia.

Especially since you don't have the town's interests at heart.  You stink of third party.



Heydude:

It was quite a powerful ability. If it weren't for the "Leave a Comment" loophole, they would have crippled me and thus the town's first night at the very least. Whoever used this ability was pretty damn confident that it wouldn't be wasted and hurt their own team. That kind of confidence would only come from someone who is scum.

Okay.  I wanted to be 100% sure on the timing so it wouldn't move around later.



Fallacy:  Do you think running around threatening people with your big scary fries got you positive results?





I was going to go back and get a feel on who was just coasting, but it turns out the list of people who are just coasting is pretty long; too long for it to be useful D1.   I'm pretty confident that TricMagic isn't town; he's way too self-interested for it to be the case that he's town, and I don't care for his current vote on LuckyOwl; he quickly jumps from not having LuckyOwl on his scumreads to voting LuckyOwl for a claim of inconsistent logic, which I don't follow at all.


TricMagic.

LuckyOwl:  Okay, I skimmed Paranormal 26 to see if this was in or out of character for you, and it looks like it's in.  That said, you're not actually helping or contributing.  If you don't have an actual suspicion yet, read until you get one, then report back.

Everyone: If I were scum, trust me. I wouldn't act this way. My scum team would've threw me under bus and yell at me in the scum chat. But I have no filter because I have no scum chat, I have no scum team, and I'm not scum. If everyone want to put your energy on me. Then so be it. But it would be a grave mistake. I'm looking for people to trust and the only one I trust is IcyTea31.

Never trust anyone who says "trust me."



Dolores:

Toaster

Quote from: Toaster on December 25, 2020, 10:27:26 pm

Dolores:  You definition of who needs to be lynched for lurking comes off as arbitrary.

I mean, didn't I say I don't believe in it (Lynch all Lurkers)?
If I had a concrete answer to 'who needs to be lynched for lurking' I'd advocate the policy of lynching players under those conditions. I don't, so I don't. Like I said, me leaving/moving my vote around on mostly inactive players doesn't mean that's who I want to lynch.

I wouldn't say you definitively said it was a bad thing.  If you don't believe it, you still keep all its old texts and a picture of the two of you together in a drawer somewhere.  That said, I think you're doing something else and it's just your side hobby, which I can understand.



IcyTea:  I'm voting you because you made a slip.  It's not really the case (especially this early in the game) that can be expounded upon much.  Maybe I can read off your current vote and its case... oh wait, you're not voting anyone.  Who do you actually suspect?  Your read list was quite inconclusive.

Speaking of:

heydude6: Was going in the short answer bin with the mechanical fluff earlier, but I've been hit by an ability. The ability doesn't seem like the kind that double-targets, so I'm going to say it's heydude6 himself who's behind it. Roles might not be alignment-indicative, but I'll say the role name is a really damning one. To be fair, it's outguessing to say that a killing ability won't double-target, but since it's "voluntary" I'm not entirely certain.

That bit I underlined: you really think a role name a player submitted before the game started is going to have any influence on their alignment?


Vector:

Quote from: dolores on December 25, 2020, 11:54:31 pm

Vector
So you do believe in the legitimacy of that slip, and do think that ICT is more likely than the average to be non-town. How do you feel about Jim's case on him, such as it is? How would you feel about players who go after ICT primarily over that slip?

I think that the case for ICT is more or less isomorphic to the case for FallacyofUrist. Both have been doing something like stalling and acting random (seemingly) for the sake of randomness. Anyway -- I think that Jim's case is credible for ICT, by Day 1 standards.

You're letting Jim off awfully easy here.  Why?  I know you know he can do better than that.



Heydude:  Just so we're absolutely 100% crystal clear with no room for other interpretation, variation, or change of claim later, you got your message about being contracted at this point in the game, and not earlier in the day?  I want absolute confirmation on this.

Why are you so sure scum hit you with that ability and not a townie who monumentally distrusts you?



4maskwolf:

Scum: Jim Groovester

Why aren't you voting your only scumread?



TricMagic:

Pain so far.. Dolores, Icytea. Do you guys have Hats?

Why do you care?

Quote from: heydude6 on December 25, 2020, 10:00:13 pm

---

Quote from: Luckyowl on December 25, 2020, 09:54:21 pm

*Read his previous post*

I disagree with everything you said:

• In a game like mafia, words are actions.
• Mafia is too logical for something as emotional as a gambling metaphor.
• Walls of text are annoying, but they put you in the spotlight, which is not something scum like to do. In the games I played in, the scum meta often involved keeping their presence minimal and letting the town tear itself apart, though the veterans here might not play that way.

I let this pass cause you're a newbie.

I would've agree with the whole mafia is a logical game and all if this was a normal mafia game with no shenanigans involve. But this isn't that type of game and when you think about it Mafia is all emotional than logical. We're always gambling our moves. Like, who should I trust? Who should I protect? Who should I kill? What we do has reward and consequences. Like what I'm doing right now is risky. I won't be doing any townread as it doesn't mean anything to me. Will it make me look scum? Yeah, but if you think I'm scum then you're emotionally thinking rather than logically. Hence unravelling the facade that Mafia is all my rational thinking.

As I said I'm going to put all my trust on IcyTea31. As it's the most townie thing to do. Trust is important to me.

"I'm not going to do any townreads."

Immediately does a townread in lieu of anything else


You can see my issue with this, right?