Bay 12 Games Forum

One thing I'd like to suggest, over dwarfs getting their magic from food-fests, is that instead, perhaps they could draw power from their fortresses directly.

The way I think this could work would be to allow engravers to set gems and precious metals into their engraved walls, as Runes, and then dwarf magic would draw power from those Runes, causing them to vanish as their power was used up, and the entire wall to go back to it's natural, rough state.

That keeps dwarf magic thematic to both the nature of the game, and to dwarfs, since they would gain magical power from their Dwarf Fortress, and directly from a fairly labour-intensive, "dwarfish" activity. Dwarfs are known for working hard, and working with stone, precious items, and runes, a lot more than they are for eating too much.

Well, this is superficially similar in that the fortress is "consumed", but it has one huge drawback compared to the hunger-based model. It will never spell the doom of the settlement. Your engravings and encrustations may run out but all thatyou need to do is assign labour to make new. You can also make mana banks, in effect, mana batteries. However, hunger CAN spell doom for your fortress. When your ravenous magic user goes on a rampage devouring 80% of your food stores that keeps your 175 dwarves alive, then you know you're in a much worse state than simply having a few less decorations.

Thus, hunger is better because of
(1) the challenge, and Dwarf Fortressness of that challenge (doooooooooom!)
(2) it isn't yet another attemp at disguising mana and mana banks

EDIT:
VVV   I assume SirHoneyBadger in the next post argues the same point that I do.   VVV

More and more power = less and less challenge, and challenge is what makes any good game fun to play, especially DF.

Which is exactly why I (and others here) for every suggestion have also introduced a checking disadvantage. For instance, using magic makes the user a ravenous scourge on your food and drink supplies, thus magic can easily destroy your fortress. Finding the Heart of the Mountain == Pits will risk devastating your fortress by HFS, and also the creeping warp is a great risk. And since this boost to magic is bound to the mountain (or forest) home it can't be transported. All these are risks and limits that offset magic, all are distinctly different from other games, and all are in the spirit of Dwarf Fortress.

Little's suggestion is nice: Elven civilisations (keeps, towns etc) could have a Mother Tree that is planted when a settlement is established and grows, and with it its power. Then mages could have their own trees that grow over time (Heart Tree?). This implies a nature-related ritualistic power different from the dwarven kind. Nice symmetry with the already existing racial profiles and proclivities. It also makes the Mother Tree a good target - imagine the happy thoughts of the dwarf with a bed made from an elven Mother Tree! I'd also like to see the artifact made from Mother Tree wood by a dwarf with a fell mood *biiiiig grin*

SirHoneyBadger, yeah, what you say ties well in with the rest of the concept, and also with that in the notion discussed here dwarves get a large boost (at least in potential) to their power when gaining the Heart of the Mountain. That the raw force contained in it would warp the Heart's surroundings (summons, mutations or whatever) adds a dimension to it, and also explains why the elves' Mother and Heart Trees grow slowly and are less powerful: it's an intentional check and limitation on the chaotic nature of the flux that is magic, and this in fact reflects nature itself which is a high-inertia equaliser on entropic chaos. Perhaps there could be some special buildings or mechanisms dwarves could make that buffers this creeping warp? Magic engravings (seals)? Making and planting fields (of special plants?) the produce of which absorbs the raw chaos (perhaps this would be good raw material for alchemy?).

I think this discussion is really going in the right direction atm. Rather than focus on exactly how a spell is cast or what magic schools exist (which is important, just not as immediately relevant) it focuses on larger gameplay aspects: tying in with existing mechanics, game play considerations, and fortress/selection/strategic consequences.

I'd like to amend Silverionmox' notion of places with mystical energy by suggesting that races should have different affinities: it is natural for dwarves to seek a Heart of the Mountain, and it is for elves to seek a Heart of the Forest. Humans might not be affine with any thing like this, perhaps being more generic and stronger with magic in general (at the onset) but also not able to attain the Greater Powers of possessing a Heart of their racial affinity. This makes the races naturally more qualitatively distinct and would entail each being played differently from each other == Big Win.

When reading the latest replies free association from the term "the heart of the mountain" gave me an idea:

What if (dwarven) magic was associated with a "heart of the mountain". Where would that be found? In the deepest part of the mountain of course. Where is that? In the pits of course. With the Hidden Fun Stuff. Why did Moria fail? They found the pits and Mrs. Balrog who hadn't had her painkillers and was in the special time of the month. What if the Moria dwarves had conquered their pits? They'd have found the Heart of the Mountain and gained magic.

Of course, other people want access to that too. Like dragons, titans and armies of goblins.

^ Also, it would mean !!kittens!! would be useful in battle... Unleash the !!kittens!! on the casters and see them combust!

heh,you guys need to chill.The idea sucks(and how was i supposed to know people had already suggested it when i searched "guns" and didnt find jack?),so what?You don't need to argue about it.Yes I play wesnoth,and I know "thundersticks" is cheesy,but what else would the dumbass humans and elves of dwarf fortress call them?I'm new to dwarf fortress and I suck at modding and the like,so just say "it's a bad idea"and stop wasting your lives arguing over simple suggestions!

Proper language and at least a modicum of an intellectual mind and sense of humour is necessary to enjoy and contribute to this place.

Since Artifact magic will be implemented first...:

ARTIFACT ARC: Special items made by the dwarves aren't very interesting right now, and there's not much for an adventurer to do with them. These objects should have magical powers and they should have a huge influence on the actions of entities that come into contact with them. Even if your adventurer can't make use of a particular artifact, you could arrange for buyers in the nobility, and use those opportunitites to get a home or good entity standing, for instance

..perhaps we should talk about this a bit. Ideas? What should be the process of creating magical artifacts?
Example: Legendary and moody weaponsmith should be able to create a magical sword, or something else should be needed in order to make one? Perhaps creating a magical sword should require the presence of a new noble who possesses magical powers?

Is the ARTEFACT ARC official or something you just suggested? Because to me it makes a MAGIC ARC either sort of a meta-arc containing other arcs, as

MAGIC ARC
  * ARTEFACT ARC
  * ALCHEMY ARC
  * SPELLCASTING ARC

or, the ARTEFACT ARC dependent on a previous implementation of the MAGIC ARC (that is, magic arc introduce the basic facilities that all magic will be implemented in terms of, so an artefact will be a magic effect imbued in an item that will be continuously active or triggered on use, and a spell is similarly a potential magic effect possessed by a "mage" that will be triggered when "invoked", etc).

Continuing your line of though, regarding who will have access to magic, we could tie in the discussion in the
Suggestion Failpile and Military dwarves getting strange moods threads (on the 6th page in both), where it is suggested that access to magic could come from a strange mood, and that if moods are (may be) specific to a particular profession, a second strange mood could be possible.

Thus, possible models are:
1) The output of a legendary dwarf could have magical properties or effects
2) A strange mood could result in an artefact with magical properties
3) A strange mood could result in a dwarf with magical powers (a "mage")
4) A mage can have strange moods resulting in artefacts, summonings, spells etc

Mode models are certainly possible, bring 'em on!

Quote from: Mikademus on December 08, 2008, 11:54:42 am

Reading the post above this one I just remembered that in some interpretations magic burns calories. So the more and increasingly powerful magic is used the hungrier (or faint) the user becomes (see f.i. L.E. Modesitt Jr.'s Recluse books, or the "Slayers" animation - Lina Inverse can really wolf it down!)

So if a magic user had an outstandingly ravenous appetite (s)he could really be the end of the castle by causing starvation or thirst, which would be very much in line with the DF style of posing challenges to the player! For further fun, let a mage issue demands on when he wants to eat or drink!

I actually love this idea! Would bring some purpose to all the food players can make, all magical works increases the appetite, and hunger's already built in. Bigger effect makes for more hunger, and some mighty effects can kill the caster outright if done in one shot  (Naturally, they'll have a chance of surviving.... if they just ate  ) And would balance any 'Magic crafters' nicely, they'd have to break more often to eat, drink and such, just to keep up their working. And actually gives backpacks and waterbags more purpose for non-soliders (Hopefully it'll be allowable to give non-soldiers them, and waterbag can take booze eventually ).

ed: Of course above's assuming magic that's driven by the person, not alchemy that uses chemical reactions and such that -appears- magical. And that skill only affects how -fast- they can cast, not how much it takes from them, so faster they goes, the more likely they might starve themselve before reaching the foodpile.

Exactly! It ties in with already existing mechanics in DF (food, hunger, brining rations), and allows magic to be powerful but at a price that may be both disastrous and hilarious! Very much in keeping with the Dwarf Fortress way.