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Messages - Quaksna

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Another short one going down, I'm having my epic protocolant exams next week. Probably will get to post an update still, the first one in July tho I am away with an organ/choir class for a change. Schedule's getting crazy  :P

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Creative Projects / Re: Music Creation Thread
« on: June 25, 2023, 02:58:01 am »
They may very well be perceiving things as such, and just because 99% of the population agrees with me, doesn't automatically make them wrong.

Well it's no just because the ratio, we can safely say that if they happen to have such problem, then they have something wrong with them, and that's not to belittle them for it, a mere observation. It's nice you want to include them. With that, for our intents and purposes (and with the ratio to boot indeed :P) they can be disregarded. Hence you could tell them that they are wrong, a reality caused by the hampered perception, which they'd be surely well aware of, or if you feel that is too harsh, that there is something wrong with them, with their senses, and that makes the conclusion iffy.

I do feel if someone tells you that the V-I resolution sounds unpleasant to them, they might be not lying (as in, accurately describing their experience), but that tells me there is indeed something wrong with that someone's perception (and by extention, if they don't like Bach :P jokes aside, that would be a logical conclusion in the scenario), because from the standard I've laid out, the progression is in its nature consonant. Maybe if you do not want to call it objective out right, I suppose it might be better explained as the aforementioned "for our intents and purposes", for us humans, as really, for making music that is designated to be pleasant, those standards are more than sensible.

Indeed why I make such a deal out of it comes from the mentality/philosophy mainly, I am of a much more ancient mind - trying to maximize potential as per applying my principles across all fields of life, and generally avoiding being sentimental, as that hardly ever helped me with anything, be it on the internet or in RL. Hence I see a web of moral implications interwoven throughout all of the world.

I'd love to post some music again, I have like five songs written out at this point, to various extent, but work is going slowly, I am quite occupied these days. But I got to buy a new mic ^^ still, there's not much opportunity to record just yet. I've recently started to study chorals, and have written two with in basic four-voice setup, I suppose I can post them here, even if just the outlines, yet to be mixed, which I do not have an idea how to go 'bout it as of now anyway.

Choral 1 test

Choral 2 test


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Creative Projects / Re: Music Creation Thread
« on: June 24, 2023, 10:36:53 am »
Through perception we can recognize what is already there. If you meant perception as the phenomenon of sense then yes, I suppose I might have misunderstood it at places, given subjectivity was thrown in in the discussion, I apologize for that - you perceive things the same way, but how do you process the information, that's the very fickle bit, that's what I meant, senses aren't malicious like that. You of course have to be able to perceive something in order to experience its quality, what I was saying was even if you didn't, that won't change said something in its nature, and thus unaffecting its quality, you just won't be able to perceive it.

For the second paragraph, those with impaired senses are aberrations and thus I don't see much use in mentioning them. Their perception might be different, but the music once again, will be the same. Via functioning senses we discovered, what makes music consistently good, after all.

Also I feel like I have to say, I am not scolding you for doing music for your enjoyment - It's awesome it brings you joy, and I know you've achieved a level of competency that it does to others too. That is why I feel it a pity when I hear art is subjective from you in particular, that's where I have to disagree. And I want tell people they can go beyond, and get the most out of their talents.

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Creative Projects / Re: Music Creation Thread
« on: June 24, 2023, 08:07:59 am »
What is the thing that is ultimately to be shown though? Is it not appreciation of the music, whether it be ones own or that of others? And so does the fruit not ultimately lie in the eventual (and favorable) perception of it? What sort of appreciation can one feel for music, if not the appeal music has to ones' senses?

That was to say, that of the composer solely. Should he be serious about the craft, he will move on from the old it in time, per natural improvement. That was to comment more on the "do what you like" vs. "use the preferred methods".

I am not disregarding the perception part - again, that's how we are to experience, I am only acknowledging the innate qualities music can have, as described in TD1's second line, because those are objective and thus sure to be generally perceived better, you don't have to rely on someone's subjective tastes. The overall experience will inevitably draw from both the objective and subjective.

Since I do know there can be objective quality in music, yes, it can exist regardless of experience. It is set in stone, it is real.

If the TD1's summary was your point the whole time then ye we've been missing each other xD I got the impression you do not believe there is objective merit to be found in art, and it is all contained within the perception. I say said perception is merely the channel by which we experience something of inherent quality - to how extent can we recognize that depends.

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Creative Projects / Re: Music Creation Thread
« on: June 24, 2023, 07:47:37 am »
Yea, there're two criteria here. Firstly, on an individual basis art is enjoyed subjectively. Eye of the beholder, etc.

Zooming out, there are certain forms and modes which encourage wider appreciation.

Therefore, some things in art are objectively 'good' if only because the human mind seems prewired to appreciate them. Bit this does not discount the wildcard which is the individual.

Very well summarized.

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Creative Projects / Re: Music Creation Thread
« on: June 24, 2023, 06:28:44 am »
The meaning of beauty is the appreciation that the perceiver has for the beauty

Has for what? His appreciation? There needs to be a solid point somewhere, you're referencing the thing you're trying to define man : D

One can't say "it's beautiful", one can only say "others tell me it is beautiful." It is like a blind man hearing about the ocean. It's second-hand knowledge at best

One can be wrong, thus I don't see a problem with second-hand knowledge. Time will tell, and focusing on one's own perception will ultimately have little to nothing to show.

Beauty can only be known by the perceiving of it

Yes for the third time, no shit, I agree with that! If you're deaf, you cannot appreciate music very well, we'll agree, you said it yourself. But the fact someone's deaf doesn't affect the music itself, it doesn't make the music worse.

As far as the objective meaning of beauty, or the point of music, if there is any, I can't claim to know it for certain

Well there you have, no wonder it has to be hard to wrap your head around, the idea of universal appeal in music, a level of skill that is bound to yield good results. I hate to use the world, there is science to music, there is vast lore to apply, I do music for the lore. Therefore it is technically possible even for a deaf person, should he have the understanding necessary, to recognize the quality of the piece by observing it written. You can judge art subjectively, you can criticise it objectively also, and that's why that'd be possible.

The reason I am so passionate spreading the word that art is not subjective is a) the idea that there is no point to it, just random amusement is preposterous and unmanageable itself, I believe it's mostly just cope  :P and b) these are disastrous time for art and I'm sure to do my due, help guide people of this cesspool. Let's bring meaning into our endeavors again, dang it!

I guess I'd be repeating myself if I went any further, the creed is for people here to see, and I did a couple times already, I have better things to do. Thanks for the involvement though, these are serious matters and I probably wouldn't get to share the word otherwise.




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Creative Projects / Re: Music Creation Thread
« on: June 24, 2023, 03:57:20 am »
and yet, you can still pick apart good and bad music
Right, and it is the you that is picking apart good and bad music. Without the you - the perceiver of the music - there is no one to judge the music. What is the meaning of beauty if there's no one to perceive it? In fact, how can anyone say it is beautiful without witnessing its beauty for themselves?

Bruh again, of course, we perceive the world with out senses no shit. But concerning quality of music, that's about the most meaningless statement you can make, it has no moral or any other implications. Let me ask you this, what is the meaning of beauty when it's so fickle anyone can define it how they want? Isn't it meaningless then? You didn't exactly help there yourself if that's what you claim  :P That's why I see this as the most sad, defeatist perspective, why would anyone care then? What is the point of music, if you cannot ensure quality anyway?

Then, how is it there seems to a well established general idea of beauty in the world, that even beasts can perceive it, not just man? You know these fish drawing mandalas in the sand to attract mates, any bird sporting over the top colorful plumage, songbirds increasing their repertoire with age and experience - and the way they rank quality of these features to choose said mates mirrors our perception of beauty (the purpose of these is to be beautiful quite apparently, they can have little no practicality otherwise)? Could it be that there is something universal at play here? Hmmm?

Even if there is no one to judge the music, the music hasn't changed! Its quality, its nature is not locked within one's perception, it does not come of it, but of the object itself! Perception just means you're the one observing something existing, something that is established. You can judge it however you see fit, but the innate qualities stand for other observers, just as they did for you, the song itself doesn't change between listeners. And since the nature of the object is to be shared between people, because it is universal, it doesn't change, whereas your standards do, your tastes do, songs can be made objectively better or worse.

If the listener truly in their heart of hearts enjoys this "idea", then it can't be argued that there's something to it that is appealing. Essentially, perception of beauty is the only real clue we have to it. There's no ultimate divine arbiter who decides whether something is good or not, other than the instrument of our perception.

Oh shit you did actually validate my two tones wtf xD I mean it does sound like the kind of thing modern art critics would praise as "challenging and bold", but those are the last people I want to listen to any music, as they deny any general idea of soundness. What do you mean can't be argued, of course it can! Let me demonstrate: "This 'truly immaculately beautiful' work of art suffers from intense lack of imagination, harmony, depth, intricacy and talent, for it undeniably consists solely of the same tone repeated twice and nothing more. It also plagiarize off everything ever  :P When compared to others works, contemporary or historical, it's absence of said features makes it immensely un-worthwhile endeavor, perhaps only save in comparison to some of the atrocities carried out by post-world war modernism, both to be composed and listen to." See if there's some universal quality, which there is, you don't need a judge, you don't need an arbiter, the song stands on its own, and doesn't need to be validated. I don't care then how it is praised or deriled, the arrangement is provable. Undisputable. And we have ways to make it sound good, regardless of who listens to it. We're that powerful, and we should use our gift to better ourself, our craft, and make good use of it.

It seems that it is the "paying off in the end", which is essentially the thing finally appealing to your senses, that redeems the process. If it had never paid off, would you still have valued it? Why would you still have valued it? Also I would venture to guess that the thing had always appealed to you, you simply did not have the experience/proficiency at your initial stage to execute it in the proper way.

This the thing, it wasn't about my or anyone's perception, demonstrated by how that changes every so often. It is not essential that it appeals to my senses, hell no, if that was the dealbreaker for me, why would I ever pursue anything that would sound off at the moment? The reason I tried it because I knew that others would enjoy it, and, because it is a proven method, that others will enjoy it. Before I did, it took a moment, but that doesn't change the fact I made the song better for it. Hell, even if I didn't actually to appreciate it ever, that doesn't have an effect on its quality. I suppose you are quite opposed to the idea of composing something the author wouldn't enjoy himself, but if others will, wouldn't that be a sacrifice then, i. e. a noble thing to do?

The fact that someone says "I like it" and the thing being of objective quality do not need to coexist, and given how ignorant the general populus is, while I do not blame them, we all having our own trouble, I say it is quite a widespread phenomenon these days. That is the subjective part. But the declaration of appreciation isn't what makes something good. Same as say when you have a piece of solid yellow cheese, and I say "I don't like this cheese.". That statement didn't change the fact that the cheese is solid or yellow, these are facts and from them you can deduce other perks and qualities.

Look, I listen to Bok van Blerk. I love the man, and I am really fond of his songs, I do like them a lot. But that's mostly because of his performance as a singer and the power behind the patriotic lyrics. The music itself isn't anything to write home about, it is as basic as you can get. Each repeating about four chords, it's your standard folk/pop/rock fare I suppose, while again, technically sound, it doesn't sound revolting, the composition is nothing to be praised. The quality then would stem not from the arrangement, but from the handling of the language - the poetry present in the texts, and his personal output, as well as the other performers. I won't stand here and say, just because I like it, it tops Bach.


I really hate to bring the good name of cheese ino this but I guess we're at the point that's how I have to explain it xD


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Creative Projects / Re: Music Creation Thread
« on: June 23, 2023, 04:10:01 pm »
(Sorry if this discussion is a bit of a derail xD)

Oh no I enjoy it  ;)

@Quaksna: But what makes a song well-crafted is in the perception of the listener, whether that's the audience or the composer. Surely you too aim to make music you perceive as good?

No, what makes a song well-crafted is its form, its structure. That remains untouched by whoever's perception. The thing is, if you go by the rules, if you tap into the lore and use the accumulated knowledge of mankind in a proper manner, it won't be subject to fashion, it won't be subject to tastes, even if people won't like it at the moment, that's their problem, you did your part and you did it well, a good fight you fought. See through all these art movements throughout history, there was a certain fashion, there were elements people focused on more and conventions of the time, and yet, you can still pick apart good and bad music, how skilled the composer was, that over time, they have mastered the intricacies and created absolute works of arts, regardless of the style. Because there is a level of understanding they have in common, and that is what I am focusing on. There is concrete procedure that we all can see, whether you are experienced or not, the knowledge is just what makes you then able to truly appreciate the genius.

Say I play the same note twice and declare it a song. If it's the perception of the listener that makes this "idea" well crafted and realized, can I potentially put myself above the masters (or be so proclaimed by others)? That's just laughable.

You can pick apart the compositions and compare them, because they consists of elements, because they exist in a form! You do not perceive the form, the form simply is!

Surely you too aim to make music you perceive as good? How would you judge a piece if not by your own ear?

Actually, when I first learned of some preferred method and I tried to apply them in my songs it didn't sound good to me at dirst. Guess what, that was due to my inexperience, because I was still wading in inferior sound, and I didn't immerse myself in other music much. But it paid of in the end, the perception then was a mirage, but the decision to put better harmony remained, and it won't deteriorate, because it is proven to work, that's what music theory is all about.

Now
I recently finished a first version of a DF fan song

Hey that's a cool little thing! I really like the base deep strings together with the drums, evokes the Gorlak very well - sounds like something enigmatic wobbling in the dark, but it does carry itself with dignity, the progression makes a good job holding the line of benevolent and dodgy. What I feel is perhaps too sinister would be then what gets added on top throughout the first half, the lines that move the most I think are part sound, but then meander off in quite a confusing, unnatural manner. The second half was a lot more readable, each of the voices was clear, and the accompanying ones didn't stray in places so to muddle the overall package, it is quite simple throughout but it is apparent you have everything under control in those two minutes.

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Creative Projects / Re: Music Creation Thread
« on: June 23, 2023, 02:06:56 pm »
Hello everyone, I am new to the forum and was wondering if this is still the best thread to post homegrown music to?

Dunno what else is out there : D But should you post here we'll gladly give it a listen, be assured.

Now excuse me, I gotta address this  :P

What I was saying was that in a sense, all music is subjective, because it requires a subject in order to be experienced. Whether you're focusing on a specific style of music or the theoretical framework of music as a whole, it's all dependent on you as a subject who is experiencing it. One cannot say that something is musically good without perceiving it as so for themselves.

Well, duh we all perceive stuff as individuals, how else you're gonna experience it. But that's not what I'm talking about, when I say a song is good the elements that make it so can be noticed by anyone potentially, because they define the object. Whether the spectators find and appreciate it is irrelevant, it's a part of the music, the composer knew his craft, he gave thought to the work and it is imprinted in its form, forever. The fact that one's perspective might be limited, i.e. unable to recognize the well crafted parts, that doesn't affect the nature of the work, and thus neither its inherent quality.

In that sense, one's enjoyment of it becomes the proof that the theory is valid.

One can certainly think that it's valid, but if no one else can share the sentiment and/or it hinges upon tastes of an individual only, that's not exactly useful is it.

And one can't really say that their way of perceiving is somehow lesser or wrong.

Again, I don't care about perception, this the music we're talking about.

I sometimes get into the mindset of creating something that I think the world will like, or that certain labels I'm submitting to will like

Well I find it particularly interesting that "what the world will like" comes to yo mind off what I advocate for. 'Cause I would wager my brand of work isn't really going to be appreciated by many. Even in the circles of us who try to preserve the legacy of old I am often put at odds, as I venture in times so ancient the intended feel often forces in quite poor spots :P. But what you'll have now globally listened to with vast majority of people is the kind of stuff we've been berating since the dawn of this thread - while technically funtional, it's bland, formulaic, unambitious factory line-up, heavily subject to fickle trends.

In short, a song isn't contained in your field of vision, how you make the song it is going to stay, no matter who will listen to it, so why not engineer it to ramp up the longevity and general appeal, ey?

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Okay so there's some crazy conpiracy underway, the sheets from my paper dealer got silently replaced for these ultra smooth, almost plastic-ey specimen that seem to hate any color at all, it's almost like the stuff we use in offices for makeshift folders like what is this. Started at a few frames back at Gaval's house, the latest episode was exclusively on it and it shows, it grinds my gears. I've been scouring other shops and collecting various papers this week, it seemed to be a trend all across, at least for the eye and finger, upon testing it wasn't that bad. Hence, this short update is quite experimental once again, as I was trying various new material out.

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I hope that's not were you went

Oh you bet I had to console the relatives and everything



Nah jokes aside, I was first attending training in the holiest site of all justiciars, to become even professional-er keyboard typer, in the town of Kroměříž, where I found that... Thing, with the skulls. Gotta love those little dinosaurs in the lawn, really tying it all together. Then I accompanied my family on a short pilgrimage somewhere near the Polish border. There I came upon the fawn, when I unknowingly walked off the path, hence I waited for the rest and might've fallen asleep by the little thing. A great grudge was settled that weekend, involving a roasted duck, but that's a tad longer story...

In short, I am getting quite busy, and while the rest of June should go okay, I am quite positive I'll have to loosen the updates a bit with time, both in scale and frequency, sadly. We'll see once we get there, now, enjoy this one.

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Where are you traveling to?

Oh I was attending Blackhoof's funeral


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Next week no episode, unless I attain a bunch mystical abilities. I'll be travelling again.

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