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46
DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« on: November 18, 2019, 12:56:21 pm »
Everything is hidden. I think they like it that way.
What you can start with are Threetoe's Stories. This was an exercise in writing short generic fantasy stories and then analyzing them and asking just what kind of systems would be needed to achieve the various elements. They're very interesting.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_story.html

Then take a look at the Mythgen prototype demo video. That's a taste of what the future holds (keeps getting put off due to distractions like Steam and Villains taking a year longer than expected, but it really is coming someday).

https://youtu.be/49b7fUI7AEI

Ooo, this video was made in 2016, and Toady has explained and shown so much about magic and myth during that panel. I cannot even imagine how much more he has added to or changed that system within these past three years, but like you said, he has been placing it on standby because of Steam and Villainy, so little progress may have been made towards it here and there.

There are several stories in that list, so I will have to bookmark it for later; nevertheless, I am very excited about what is to come in the future of Dwarf Fortress—primarily the Mythgen and improvements to Adventure Mode, but I probably should be excited about being able to properly torture and interrogate people through Villainy as well.

47
DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« on: November 18, 2019, 01:43:58 am »
Things just work out that way sometimes. Dwarf Fortress was a side project to Slaves of Armok which was rubbish. They realised this and polished up Dwarf Fortress released it and became an overnight (modest, cult, Indie) success. The big picture to them is the same as it was since they were kids. Procgen RPG with emerging storytelling.

Did you see the video from a couple of days ago? He talks a bit about that there.

--edit
There you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=farAaxCEkv8
(Recorded from livestream, doesn't start until around 10 minute mark).

Oh? Slaves of Armok is actually a game? I thought Armok was merely a comedic omnipotent deity in Dwarf Fortress that just so happens to be us. I looked up the game and... well, it is precisely as you described it: Rubbish. No offense to Toady and ThreeToe since I am certain they were passionate about the game.

Dwarf Fortress is a very compelling and exciting game, so I am very thankful they saw its potential and decided to put more serious development into it to make it what it is now, and I got a taste of what they intended of the game—the storytelling and the RPG aspect of the game through Adventure Mode, despite being incomplete, where an Adventurer can make their own story and affect the world in some way though only on a minor scale. As for the video, I have not seen it. I started playing about... I want to say... sometime last month, so I probably missed out on a lot of information shared by Toady and ThreeToe because I have no idea where to find and follow where they commonly inform us—excluding Bay12 since this is their forums after all.

I will be keeping this video open in a separate tab for tomorrow morning. ❦

48
DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« on: November 18, 2019, 12:04:13 am »
*Snip* (sorry, editing on a phone is a pain).
Worth pointing out that Adventurer isn't something that was added on later. It was there from the first release. The world has always been the main point and Adventurer was a way to explore it. As development progresses the border between the two modes should become more and more flexible.

It is, of course, rather undeveloped still compared to fortress and even with this 18 month+ update that's basically all Adventurer plus some cool fortress stuff thrown in, it's not there yet (as far as fortress mode is "there") with Toady mentioning what's missing in fotf recently.

So, um, --push train back onto tracks-- the more Adventurer suggestions the better really, but it'll still be without a coherent point for quite a while yet.

Toady in fotf on the state of Adventurer:
Quote
Quote from: Shonai_Dweller
You've filled up the world with plotting villains, zombie apocalypses and monasteries while updating the interface with org charts to help people to find their way around while giving them pets, companions and strategic combat to keep them distracted. Do you think Adventure Mode is now close to Fortress Mode's level of "being somewhat like an actual game" now? Relatively speaking of course, I know there's tons more to add which will enhance both modes.

Ha ha, I dunno - it still feels like it needs more structure, tied in to the societies and individuals.  Due to its relative microscope nature vs. fortress mode, it might be hard to shake that feeling.  I'm not done with the investigations though.  That was supposed to be an important rafter holding something like a game up.  But it feels like we still need some more basic above-board political structuring that'll let the world change, so it feels like you have a properly reactive story, rather than something on-the-balance destructive or oblivious.  Dwarf mode has these problems as well, but it can escape the feeling of them by having the whole fort there bustling and providing more fluidly creative options.

It's fine! I cannot see myself editing comments on mobile in the way I respond to others, unless they change the language and how commenting works to mimic Reddit's, so I always respond to others here on desktop.

Hm, okay, so Adventure Mode has existed alongside Fortress Mode since the beginning of the game's development which is certainly news to me; however, Fortress Mode was the golden child while Adventure Mode was the frumpy and malnourished child that did not get as much attention and love and Fortress Mode did (probably a hyperbole).

I guess it is this way because strategic simulation games was their preference at the time, and a Roguelike was their secondary preference, but since I am not Toady nor ThreeToe, I have no idea why Fortress Mode had more precedence over Adventure Mode. As a fan of Adventure Mode, I wish it was the other way around, but that would just leave others who are fans of Fortress Mode feeling the same way I feel. Well, Adventure Mode's time will come as mentioned in FoTF and several times throughout this thread.

What I am anticipating the most is all of the mythical stuff—magic and whatnot—being expanded upon and melded into the game, but I am also looking forward to more core features being added and improved upon in Adventure Mode. Also, what he means by "on-the-balance destructive or oblivious" in relation to Fortress Mode? It seems like Dwarves are capable of causing the world they are in to react to them based on their achievements which includes the  activity and size of their fortress since other races seem to want to trade with them, go to war with them, and even threaten them (I do not know if forming alliances is possible). What else... Deities tend to visit with an ulterior motive of taking over a fortress, I am guessing, and other creatures tend to visit, to visit for citizenship, or to sneak with ill intent. Since I have not played Fortress Mode before, I could be oblivious about something that Toady and the Veterans know.

49
DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« on: November 17, 2019, 09:26:43 pm »
Based on the DF client info, yeah that Butterfly Monster looks to be a demon. Night trolls have a "now you fear the night" at the end of their descriptions, while demons (and a few other creatures) always have a special attack. In this case, a deadly spittle.

You are right.

I am seeing demons with special attacks and night creatures with "Now you will know why you fear the night" at the end of their descriptions.

Reload time is a non-issue when you fire from 21-25 tiles out (preferably 23-25, to have a 2 tile margin of error). When I first started DF (v34.11), as someone who came from Angband, I somewhat randomly ended up playing ranger using the distance format, positioning at 25 tiles out. There's more to this, but if you muck around with archery I think you'll find it more rewarding than other rogue-likes. Instead of the classic hit point attrition-to-zero-first arrow hits NPC game, DF gives you a fire at tile cluster within 3 dimensions, with varying damage scales approach.

Running a Legalas "shoot from an adjacent tile" combat is possible, but the gulf between your Dodger/Shield user skills and the opponent's attack skill would need to be exceedingly high. I've done this, but it just isn't narratively sound and has always felt wildly exploitive, mechanically.

If you favor elf/human as a ranged player, you'll need to work within the constraints of being a pure daylight/aboveground archer. Yes, many elves, half-elves, humans and dúnedain frown.


Yeah, what I called "precision-based attacks" for focusing on parts of the body. I figured that would make combat in this game more rewarding in general—more engaging and realistic since we have to be tactical and knowledgeable about what parts of the body enables a creature to do what, and what will happen if we disable those parts of the body. Despite not yet getting into an actual fight, I already find combat in this game to be very rewarding. Despite every race's vision being limited to twenty squares (excluding Dwarves), I would not mind a Sentinel's play-style since it is yet another realistic feature of Archery regardless of its crippling reload times.

Also, of course they are frowning, their capabilities are being poorly represented in Dwarf Fortress in favor of the first word of the game's title, but as DG said, they will most likely receive the attention they deserve when Toady finds the time to do so—potentially after Villainy and the Magic stuff.

Roughly: an average-sized, average strength human = a large-sized, average-to-abv-avg strength elf/dwarf/goblin. So there will be instances where your superelven strength elf will be able to break a larger creature's grasp the "traditional" way as opposed to the "meta" single-action, manual dodge method. This will include humans and some night trolls, but nothing of larger variety.

Hm, I am going to make wild guesses here for the sake of clarity, and this is all based on Average Strength and average sizes relies on Strength:
  • Animal People ≈ Human (Greatly varies with the species of the animal person.)
  • Dwarf = Human (Human > Dwarf if bigger than Dwarf.)
  • Elf = Human (Elf > Human if older and stronger than Human's capped strength.)
  • Goblin = Dwarf
  • Kobold < All

Probably terribly incoherent and incorrect, but those are my guesses if every race has different starting and maximum Strength.

The first priority in melee combat is to negotiate a creature's charge attack = damage their ability to stand, to deprive them of this very charge attack. If you get rundown by charge, you could incur a -50% stat debuff. From the min-max optimal POV, this means use a multi-action attack (quick attack + dodge away) to ground them.

Ah, okay, so I need to quickly attack them and dodge through multi-attacks until I manage to cripple them? That seems doable as an Archer as long as I have decent Dodging, and once I do cripple them, I assume I will be able to create space between us to finish them off with arrows, or is it advised to continue to finish them off with melee attacks? Finishing them off via melee would probably be a smarter idea if they have ranged attacks of their own that may come from their mouths.

Oh, and about that Shield User thing you were talking about, are creatures able to wield a shield or strap one to their forearms if they are wielding a bow at the same time? I am not sure how to train Dodger and Shield User to Grandmaster or Legendary without getting into fights and that seems to be the only way which... is not bad, I suppose.



(E: Forgot to add Animal People and Kobold to the list.)

50
I mean, people seem fine with the female dwarfs having beards and female humans have moustache, its always the female elves being male that makes people react for some reason.
The previous of course being the reason I made the latter. In hindsight, elves are probably the least sexually dimorphic of all the civ races, so the representation was unnecessary. But you know.

There is a lot on my plate still, even if most of the tiles have gotten a vettling touch.
I will phase out most of the creature sprites I burrowed from mephs tileset, which is a lot, maybe over 1000+.
A cool feature would be if the game engine could just "scale up" Giant variations og creatures rather than having to make new anyway.
Multi tile creatures, or creatures outside of the tilesize limit, probably would postpone me making giant variations for a while, or sprites for whales/elephants etc.

There certainly is a list of changes for the sprites that will come into consideration as soon as the next update is released.

- Civ-graphics for all the new randomly generated Positions (If possible)
- Civ Graphics for High priests and other new Positions.
- Possible graphics for mounts (?)

Dwarves have a different culture going on for them, so I do not really mind female Dwarves having the characteristics of a male Dwarf nor do I mind male Dwarves having the characteristics of a female Dwarf since I respect different cultures in general (I think male Dwarves without a beard are considered females—at least that is what I read from someone else explaining why they called a male Dwarven deity a "she" in his comic). I am primarily concerned about biological discrepancy, y'know? Female Dwarves having their breasts and appropriate reproductive organs, and male Dwarves having flat chests (unless they are portly) and their appropriate reproductive organs, and the same thing for every other race that is not a Dwarf. Oh, and I do not play as Dwarves by the way, despite them being the "perfect" race due to being the only playable race for quite some time, because I adore Elves across all games. ❦

You are more than welcomed to take your time with all of it despite what anyone says—unless it is Toady or Threetoe rushing you for a good reason, I suppose. Like I said, there is no rush at all. Hmm, I do not think I have seen any of Meph's tiles in-game—just yours so far; although, I am wondering why the tile of a rotating green cube that will turn into a green staircase will sometimes show up on the direction my Adventurer is moving after a fight. Also, I like how you named your style—the "Vettling" touch, hehe.

What does scaling up giant variations of OG creatures mean? From what I understood, it means... enlarging the size of an existing tile instead of creating a new tile for the same creature that happens to be larger than what is average for them? I have seen incredibly large creatures in Dwarf Portrait, and I have always assumed that they retain the same one-square tile size regardless of their descriptions. Now you have me wanting to search for massive creatures out of curiosity.

Ooo, your list has me all sorts of excited. I will be looking forward to what you will bring to the upcoming updates. ❦

51
DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« on: November 17, 2019, 01:02:51 pm »
You could find a cave that connects to the underground and hunt some of the more unnatural creatures down there if you want to keep the "at peace with the (surface) wilderness" vibe. It's a long way to go to butcher something to eat. Less unreasonable to go there for crafting materials, maybe. It's also a great way to die to a giant spider or simply get lost and never see the sun again.

I am not completely against killing animals for food and crafting materials—only a little saddened by the fact that I have to do so regardless of my race or the game being played, and while visiting a cave seems to be a good idea, I do not think I am ready for one nor near one since I am in the middle of a forest. If there are Butterfly Monsters lurking about, I cannot imagine what are lurking within caves.

It's just to reflect that dwarves wouldn't think of or refer to themselves with a human mindset. So any man-compound word is changed to dwarf, or elf or goblin. The effect is a little diluted by the animal peoples being called badgerman or whatever. That's all in the raws, too. You can easily make it so that a marksdwarf is called a marksbeard or something if you wished. Or just change every race to use the same terms for fighters and crafters.

Ah, I see. I think Dwarves are the only race I have seen that change the name of their skills to match their race, and my Elf is still using the default names of the skills. I have no interest in tinkering with my raw, though—at least until I have learned the game through and through.

It's just him (Toady One/Tarn) and his brother (Threetoe/Zach). Tarn does the programming but they more or less collaborate on everything else like the planning, brainstorming and design. Kitfox Games will handle the steam release and they have a couple of guys working on the steam version tileset and some steam version music is already finished. But it's only the two brothers driving the game proper forward.

Interesting, so that is a relative of Toady's, and Dwarf Fortress is a family project. Browsing the forums and subreddit, I have only saw Toady mentioned in everything related to updates and what makes the game function, so I assumed he was the only person working on the game. That makes me feel a little bad about his brother, so I am going to make sure I remember him as well.

I thought Meph and Mayday were working together on the official tileset for the Steam version of Dwarf Fortress? Are they employees of Kitfox Games?

Yeah. So if this was a suggestion forum thread, your first post where you have the plant list would definitely be read by either Tarn or Zach or both. I assume that if the suggestion is interesting and good conversation continues in the thread they might read the replies, too. If it's one of the many repeat suggestions I would expect them to simply move on.

I see, so it is the top post that they read as in the very original post which starts the thread everyone comments about. Thanks for clarifying.

52
DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« on: November 17, 2019, 01:57:20 am »
Dwarves are pretty cool, true. They have trances, strange moods, good vision, damage resistance, big livers, steel. Elves are immortal, at peace with wildlife (maybe that's why the butterfly monster let you go? :P probably not), don't kill grass when walking on it...Umm...More hair colour options? But dwarves have been worked on from the start for over a decade. The other races are still playing catch up with features or waiting for them to be properly implemented (like the elven proclivity to waste-not/want-not eat their enemies as noted in legends mode).

Peasant-cretin covered the mechanics well, all I'll add is that there are heaps and heaps of suggestions for fixes to ranged combat. The reload wait in adventure mode and the machinegun xbow rate in dwarf mode are the most common concerns. Dwarves (and human or goblins or elves etc) can use any weapon they are big enough for. They will even use bows in Fort mode if you buy one from a caravan, it's just a "cultural" restriction that they don't make them for themselves. I usually copy the human weapon raws to the dwarven raws because I figure they should be able to make any weapon they want, even if they prefer to use certain types. Also, dwarves of a certain outstanding size are meant to be able to wield very large weapons like two-handed swords in fortmode but there is a bug hanging around that causes the check to not be made (last time I looked).

Edit: Oh, and Tarn has confirmed (and reiterated to convince people over the years) that at least the first post of every suggestion is read. You won't get a reply because that would take too much time, but you can be confident that it will at least be read by them.

Hm... taking what you said in consideration in addition to what I learned about the pace at which Toady works on new updates as well as the time frames of release for those updates, I suppose it makes sense that the other races may not be as great as the Dwarves given the fact that Fortress Mode is Dwarf Fortress's first game mode and the Dwarves have been rigorously improved to what they are now due to being the only playable race prior to Adventure Mode's release. I did notice within World Viewer that my Elf is 262 years old, so it is pleasant to know that Elves do not need to become a Vampire nor a Werewolf, I think, to achieve immortality and being at piece with nature's denizens is a lovely and serene thing even though... I may have to kill some of them for food and crafting materials. Being unable to kill grass when walking upon it would probably make them exceptional Farmers if the same trampling mechanic applies to crops, but I do hope that they and the others races will be equally expanded upon when Toady finds the time to do so.

Ahh, okay, I thought they refused to or could not wield them for some reason which I assume had to do with their size or stature—the latter seeming to be the inconsistent case since their size or stature affects the weapons you mentioned them being unable to wield. Out of curiosity, why do certain skills have their names changed to include "dwarf" in it such as... 'Marksdwarf'? It is really great to know that there are so many others who have already voiced there concerns about Archery, and I am certain Toady already knows by now if so since this is quite an old game with many Veterans that care about the game enough to share their concerns and suggestions. Hm, is he the only developer of the game? I did see someone in the credits that shares a last name with him, so I am unsure.

That is reassuring and something I really appreciate that they do, so everyone who wants to share their ideas do not feel as though they are being disregarded or ignored. I might be overthinking this a little, but the first post being the part of the thread that the OP creates for the Devs and everyone else to share their thoughts about through sharing their own comments below it?

53
Over the course of playing Dwarf Fortress for the first time in Adventure Mode, I have been learning quite a lot so far—primarily about vegetation since that is what I have been looking into the most. I discovered that there are an abundance of vegetables that are not edible, there are many leaves as pointed out by many that could have been used to brew tea, and there are several vegetables that are not edible but should be edible as well as vegetables that are edible in Fortress Mode through the skill called 'Herbalism' which is unavailable to Adventurers in Adventure Mode.

Herbalism reminds me of the foraging Botanists and Explorers do for medicinal and edible vegetation, and this is something I believe is vital to Adventurers since they need to search for sustenance through their world's flora if fauna available for hunting or stashed good are unable to be found. Herbalism could allow Adventurers in Adventure Mode and Dwarves in Fortress Mode to identity poisonous vegetables which should also be consumable—rhubarb leaves being one many poisonous vegetables.

The more well-versed an Adventurer or NPC is at Herbalism, the more descriptive a fruit, plant, or vegetable will be when inspected with "l" or inspected within the Adventurer's or NPC's inventory. Herbalism can be further trained through changing licking to a mechanic that is used for testing vegetation through licking, nibbling, biting, or eating a vegetable—each method providing more skill gains based on the amount consumed and the risk involved from the amount consumed.

Poisonous vegetation also has the potential to be incorporated into the upcoming major Villains update through expanding the Alchemy and Cooking skills' capabilities by allowing Adventurers or NPCs to poison beverages or to brew medicinal or poisonous concoctions to give or throw at other NPCs.

With regard to rationing, the same mechanic—excluding licking—mentioned above can be used for eating portions of our food, in addition to identifying their properties based on the amount consumed, rather than eating the food entirely:
  • Nibble results in partially eating something edible. (i.e., Partially-eaten peach.)
  • Biting results in eating half of something edible. (i.e., Half-eaten peach.)
  • Eating something edible results in Dwarf Fortress's default behavior.

Partially-eaten edibles stack with other partially-eaten edibles of its type and the same applies to half-eaten edibles of the same type. This will allow Adventurers and Dwarves in Fortress Mode to ration their consumables similarly to the way Adventurers drink an unit of water from their waterskins or from much bigger containers capable of holding water. Similarly to the aforementioned eating mechanic, this can also be done with liquids through sipping, drinking, and gulping:
  • Sipping samples a liquid in an attempt to identify its properties. (Sipping does not quench thirst.)
  • Drinking a liquid results in default Dwarf Fortress behavior in addition to an attempt to identify its properties.
  • Gulping a liquid will consume the necessary amount of units needed to quench the entity's thirst. (Gulping does not identify a liquid's properties.)

This mechanic will help test an unknown liquid's properties to ensure it is not contaminated or poisoned if "l"ooking at it is not enough which can be tied to a new skill, the Alchemy skill, or the Chemist skill (I am not really sure if this should be a baseline thing for everything that is not a vegetable or tied to a skill if Herbalism does not cover it).

These suggestions can also be incorporated into Fortress Mode as well since... I realized that I covered some things that do not exist in either mode. I believe these mechanics will allow us to interact with edibles, liquids, and vegetation in a more realistic manner in addition to adding a little expansion to what will be possible through villainy.

(Special Credits/Thanks for the Above Ideas)

54
DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« on: November 16, 2019, 08:34:43 pm »
If the scent is death, bug innards, etc. then it's a night troll.

This is the creature that brutally mutilated my Human Adventurer and... well, felt up my Elven Adventurer up before it fled:



Is there a way to get more information about a scent? It showed up as "Butterfly Monster" next to "Strongest Odor" at the top left of Dwarf Fortress's client.



From what I understood of those statistics, reload speed for bows is still detrimental at Grandmaster Archery and Bowman.

I really hope Toady considers my idea or something similar to it for making Archery doable by making improvements to the reload speed for bows since... it makes little sense that an entity can throw a rock and rummage for another rock within the depths of their backpacks with much more deft than a Grandmaster or Legendary Archer can grab the tip of an arrow from over their shoulder where their quiver presents them to ready upon their bows for firing.

For many players, the reload time and the seeming randomness of volume damage = death via a thousand cuts discourages play as archer. There are interesting ways to play archer, but these require different expectations than those from other rogue-likes involving ranged combat where your character can William Tell your opponent.

If you want to run a archer character, regardless of reload time, you have to play a distance management oriented-game that revolves around NPC view range which is a distance of 20 tiles. Hostile NPCs happen to be oblivious to anything in the 21-25 tile safety pocket. It's from this pocket that you volume/volley arrows/bolts at the tile they stand on.

Unfortunately dwarf is the optimal choice for archer as they see the full 25 tiles whether day or night allowing them to make the best use of cover gained through visual stealth.


That may be what I will have to do—keeping my distance and sneaking around—to stick to Archery because I really do not want to be funneled into a melee build to succeed in Dwarf Fortress, and what you shared does make me wonder if Archery was intended for stealth tactics even though that does not excuse how unwieldy it is in the heat of battle. I am a ranged person, and magic coming to Dwarf Fortress soon makes me ecstatic that I may possibly be able to maintain that play-style.

Moreover... why are Dwarves the only race that possess that trait? That is so strange to me when Elves are usually the ones with exceptional vision as well as 'Dark Vision' that commonly fit the Archery archetype across the vast majority of franchises and stories that feature them. I am starting to gain the impression that the "Dwarf" in "Dwarf Fortress" means Dwarves are superior in every aspect which leaves no room for playing as any other race—Combat Trances, enhanced vision, I am starting to wonder what else they have over every other race that will make my preferred race feel sub-optimal.

Lastly, I thought Dwarves could not wield bows but could only wield crossbows? I glanced over this detail from the wiki during my research, so I could be wrong.

If a larger sized creature grabs your character, you will only get free when they let go. Legendary wrestler versus a much much bigger NPC who has maybe even dabbling wrestler = perpetual struggle to break grip. To avoid avoid being grabbed, you must (once you see the NPC has opted to grab attempt you) choose a single action behavior: to manually dodge away. Whether the combat message is they miss (roll to grab failure) or they do indeed make the grab!, the end result is that you will have dodged away, leaving one tile of separation between you and the NPC, thus grip breaking. This is only way.

Thematically it's definitely all technique driven Dwarf Fortress judo.


Ah, I did not know about that, and I personally find that to be thrilling.

Thanks for explaining it to me, and it makes sense that a much larger creature can lock a creature smaller than it within its grasp even if they are a Legendary Wrestler; however, does Strength influence the chances of breaking free from a larger creature's grasp? If so, I have a feeling it may not if the smaller creature's Strength is lesser than the larger creature's Strength.

I am also wondering if dodging is my only way to keep my distance from a creature that is faster than me and is capable of charging me.



(E: Fixed a few of my usual inevitable typos.)

55
DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« on: November 16, 2019, 03:34:49 pm »
Yes, dwarves are the only creatures that will trance in vanilla because they have [TRANCES] in their raws. If you have a dwarven adventurer they are more likely to enter a trance when they encounter multiple enemies (like being swarmed by bogeymen) and it can really swing an otherwise impossible fight. The boost to resisting combat fatigue alone is very powerful.

A butterfly monster sounds like you encountered a demon. Those are meant to be a challenge even to experienced and well-equipped adventurers, not least of all because of their massive size. The game doesn't do a great job of highlighting size differences. From memory, the problem with bows and xbows in adventure mode is that once you fire it, you automatically reload and in that time your enemies are free to close on you which can be bad news. There isn't yet (unless it was changed without me noticing) anyway to fire and drop your bow to ready yourself for their charge. That's why throwing is generally regarded as superior. It's very quick, you don't have to worry about specific ammo and the damage can be laughably broken. The speed changes I mentioned was the implementation of quick and heavy strikes and the different run speeds and anything else that came with and after that. So take my musings with a grain of salt, they're not based on current mechanics. Kisat Dur is a good read in regards to becoming a better combat adventurer. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=148015.495

No herbalism in adventure mode isn't so much an oversight as it is one of the myriad things jostling for the dev time required to be implemented. It'll go in sooner or (much more likely) later.

Interesting. It seems akin to a burst of adrenaline that can turn the tide of battle or change the odds in favor of the person experiencing that adrenaline boost, but why only Dwarves?

Based on what I am seeing in Dwarf Portrait, it is a demon—a very... unnerving aberration in appearance, and I am going to be careful around them with my Elven Adventurer to prevent her from meeting the same fate my Human Foraging Adventurer met. They seem to be very nomadic based on how much my Elven Adventurer picks up their scent when sleeping. Dwarf Portraits does quite a good job at showing me the unique sizes of a creature, and I am very shocked that such a large and powerful demon frequently roams about the way it does seemingly one or rarely two at a time. About Archery... I can confirm that firing an arrow from my bow does cause time to pass while I am reloading, and that is so disadvantageous and unwieldy. The time it takes to reload an arrow should share the same amount of time it takes for an arrow to soar to its destination the millisecond it leaves the Archer's fingertips. If the arrow reaches its destination before the Archer can reload, that is when they can be at a risk of too much time passing. Does Archery or Bowman decrease the time it takes to reload the bow as the Adventurer becomes more skilled with either combat skill? Archery does seem to state as much in the wiki, and Bowman does not have its own page nor a description beyond "allows characters to use bows more effectively". Through a happenstance of serendipity, I actually found and bookmarked "Kisat Dur" during my searches a few weeks ago regarding how combat works in Dwarf Fortress; although, it seems to primarily cover grappling/wrestling which I suppose is still important in close-ranged combat based on how much that "Butterfly Monster" grappled my Human Adventurer in my pocket world and my Elven Adventurer before letting go and fleeing in my primary world. Is close-ranged combat the only efficient way to fight in Dwarf Fortress? I am a bit disappointed about Archery being so inefficient due to how terrible reloading is, but at least there is Throwing which does seem hilariously strong if that comment I read about someone decimating an Animal Caretaker with strawberries is true.

Ah, I see. It seemed like an oversight to be because foraging and scavenging for sustenance—identifying and picking the edible parts of fruits, plants, and vegetables—is one of the primary aspects to being an Adventurer since food is not going to appear out of thin air for them. Due to the former, I assumed it would be one of the skills Toady would have implemented alongside the current existing skills Adventurers can learn and utilize during his initial development of Adventure Mode. Well, like I mentioned earlier, I am certain we will see it when he is able to finish Villains and Magic which will symbiotically benefit Adventure Mode.

Thanks, I'm glad that you like them! Yeah, lick could be used to give some idea of the plant, without being dangerous (unless it's a stingy plant, such as poison ivy). Like, a menu where you choose whether you lick, or nibble, or bite, or eat whole. Also, that could be set automatically, to spare time with certainly edible plants. Last option could have some risk of asphyxiation, in addition to it being a large dose. And those parts which don't provide nutrition when eaten, simply won't remove hunger.

Very brilliant ideas. ❦

I am in favor of any idea that gives us more ways to realistically interact with our environments and the objects we find within those environments. The options to lick, nibble, bite, and eat entirely could be shared with edible objects such as meats to allow us to test them and to ration them. The name of the item could change according to how much was taken from the item through nibbling or biting which will still stack with items of similar names (partially-eaten peach and half-eaten peach). This would allow us to essentially eat from the same item three times which will be less fulfilling than eating it entirely but helps with conservation or rationing our portions.

Oh! I forgot to mention this in my earlier comment, but poisonous plants could be used to brew poisonous beverages, too! I suppose they could be used to taint them as well such as the classic nightshade in tea. This would be a very fiendish mechanic that would fit in quite well with the upcoming Villains update.

Don't hesitate to make a Suggestion forum post or add it to someone else's related suggestion. People have come up with many good ideas but have failed to put them in writing where the brothers will read it and potentially take note. This thread inspired a suggestion of my own so I've taken my own advice. ;)

I love sharing my ideas and making suggestions for all to see that could help improve a game I am passionate about playing, so I think I will do just that if your newly-inspired suggestion did not already cover what I have in mind.

How interested is Toady in seeking out, consuming, and digesting our suggestions?

56
DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« on: November 15, 2019, 04:28:09 pm »
Many people think alike:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=171498.msg7814163#msg7814163

What a bunch of thoughtful like-minded people. ❦

With so many of us in agreement about simple things like strawberry leaves being edible and being thrown into the recipe lists to create anything else they can provide, we could hope to see them implemented soon when Toady finds time for it after the Villains or Magic stuff.

You're welcome.  :)

I've personally never had problems with bogeys appearing if I have a companion but I don't doubt that it happens. You're right about handling bogeys being something outside of novice scope. What I liked to do was roll up a dwarf peasant adventurer, focus on shield and dodge, make sure they spawned with some decent armor and then wander into the wilderness and save before nightfall and a bogeyman ambush. Save-scum until the bogey ambush triggered a martial trance in my dwarf (absolutely required) and then with luck, a lot of dodging and judiciously opportunistic hacking of bogey legs to slow them down, I've power-leveled my peasant. Even with a martial trance you're more likely to die than not at that skill level. I haven't done any serious adventuring since before the speed split changes to combat so I don't know if it's still a workable exploit strategy. As far as whether or not bows are a good choice, just play what you find fun or think fits the adventurer. Roleplay reasons will always give you a better play than min-max reasons (says a person who has done a far bit of min-maxing).

Regarding cabbage leaf in adventure mode, it actually makes sense with the current implementation. The cabbage leaf is modelling the outer green leaves of the head that we all throw away. The problem is that herbalism hasn't been implemented in adventure mode yet. For instance, your adventurer can come across a fisherberry and not be able to do anything more than set it on fire. In fortmode a herbalist can pick the berry and have an edible raw food item as easily as that. Once herbalism is folded into adventure mode you'll be able to pick the cabbage, throw away the inedible outer leaves that are the "cabbage leaf" and eat the deliciously crunchy cabbage head. Until then a vegetarian adventurer needs to make do with things that are completely edible and so don't require herbalism to "pick" the good bits, like lettuce and garden cress etc. That's why I've searched for the purple amaranth to corroborate your findings and see whats up with the leaves. Maybe the fact that you can mill them makes their otherwise edible leaves inaccessible to the adventurer (my current working theory based on nothing).

Are Dwarves the only race that can fall into a Martial Trance? They seem to be the race I read the most about falling into moods and trances, but that may have to do with Fortress Mode since they are the only playable race there, I think. Nevertheless, that is a very interesting and smart idea to train an Adventurer that way, and it may not be possible due to a speed-split change? What does that do in Dwarf Fortress? That is one thing that puzzled me... the precision-based attacks that allow us to choose which part of a creature we want to attack. I don't know if it has to do with my skills or the strength of the creature I fought, but it seems that some creatures are very good at evading my attacks and very fast—acting faster than I could possibly act which allows them to consecutively wrestle and harm my Adventurer before it is my Adventurer's turn. My speed was 1.000 at the time, and the creature I fought was called a "Butterfly Monster" in my Human Adventurer's pocket world, so I am hoping not every creature is like that. It gave me the impression that min-maxing (or training to maximize my important skills) is very important in Adventure Mode.

Huh, that actually makes a lot of sense, and I am surprised I did not think of that since I do tend to peel off and discard the outer layers of vegetables—cabbages, lettuces, onions, and sometimes potatoes despite their skin being edible and very nutritious—before I cook them; however, I wonder why that does not apply to lettuces in Dwarf Fortress since they also tend to have filthy and undesirable outer layers. Herbalism not being an attainable skill for Adventurers must be an oversight since it is basically foraging which is something Adventurers do throughout their adventures for sustenance, but perhaps we will see Herbalism made attainable for Adventurers when Toady is able to show Adventure Mode more attention after the Villains and Magic updates. I feel terrible for those who wanted to roleplay a Pacifist Vegetarian, though.

I agree! It would be awesome to see more variety in cooking. Different leaf teas and coffee for dwarves and humans, meat/bone teas for knife-ears, and such.
Also poisonous plants would be FUN! You know, having your adventurer with low skill accidentally misidentify edible berries with poisonous ones, and get a syndrome, which could range from mildly irritating, to permanently crippling, to lethal. That could depend on the plant, and the dose. The lowest dose being licking. And adventurers, that are starving, or have a greedy trait, would automatically/more likely consume a larger dose.
Kind of funny that apricots are edible with their stone included!

Right?! I would love to see those missing recipes be added to Fortress and Adventurer Mode to provide more versatility to certain leaves, fruits, and vegetables. You're getting me hyped up with all of these brilliant ideas. ❦

Poisonous plants would stop us from carelessly picking and trying every vegetable we find, and I really like that idea. They could change the whole "lick" thing to an option we can use to test objects based on taste, and as DG mentioned, we are missing Herbalism in Adventure Mode, and I believe that could help Adventurers and Dwarves identify what is and is not poisonous based on "l"ooking at their descriptions before picking them (Herbalism will provide more information about vegetables when picked and checked within inventories). Licking the vegetables—or any poisoned item—would have a chance to convey the slightest of their poisonous effects as well as a high chance to resist them, since it is slight dosage after all from merely a lick, and would provide a more detailed description about the item when inspected after being licked.

Oh, and I did see something called an "apricot pit" in the tree, I think, so I believe they are automatically spat out onto the ground when the Adventurer or NPC finishes consuming the edible parts of the apricot; although, I would not put it pass characters in Dwarf Fortress eating the whole thing then potentially dying to asphyxiation due to the pit since deaths seem to be silly in this game, lol.


(E: Fixed spacing, and added a tidbit more information.)

57
DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« on: November 14, 2019, 05:37:22 pm »
It is safe to make tea out of strawberry leaves (and to eat, but they don't taste that good), so they should be edible in DF, but aren't.
Sorry I forgot to add, I meant regular spinach!

Ohh, then are Dwarves in Fortress Mode able to make tea out of strawberry leaves? If not, I think that should be suggested. I love how there is knowledge of real life recipes, alongside the toxicity of certain leaves from edible fruits and vegetables, to learn from all of this. If we are able to eat bitter melon leaves, I think we should be able to consume strawberry leaves—at least in Fortress Mode.

Also, I managed to find a tree with an overabundance of almonds, apricots, and walnuts! I can confirm that apricots are indeed edible.

58
DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« on: November 14, 2019, 01:34:07 pm »
Bogeymen have been nerfed for the next version by being banished to evil and new "nightmare demon" biomes (but have been given new powers, so be careful). As Toady says, it "puts an end to that little years-long experiment in annoying people."

Ah, what convenient timing for them to get banished around the time I started playing Dwarf Fortress. ❦

Although, I will miss out on the annoyance all of you have went through unless there is a reason to play older versions of Dwarf Fortress. Their buffs seem fair given that they will be restricted to a specific evil biome as they will need something to make Adventurers' lives even more of a living hell when they do find them again.

They can be deadly even if you aren't dawdling about as an oblivious peasant elf with a wooden spear and no shield or armor. This time I countered them with a drunk so all's good, although the purple amaranths remain elusive. If I wasn't specifically seeking them I'd probably trip over them constantly. From this short play it's becoming clear that a phyllophagous adventurer will have a harder time with meal variance.

Spoiler: additional leaf data (click to show/hide)

Thank you. Added them to the list. ❦

Really? I heard that they can spawn upon a sleeping Adventurer even while accompanied by Companions because the latter will wander about despite being told to wait. Now I am very thankful they are getting banished to a specific evil biome with some buffs to compensate because I am way too much of a novice to know how to handle being surrounded. (I probably picked a very poor weapon choice as well—Archery.)

I am actually surprised we cannot eat cabbage! Someone must have really hated their veggies as a kid. So far, this seems intentional for Adventure Mode—which makes me very happy about my raws not being defective—because there are so few veggies we can eat that does make a commitment to a phyllophagous diet difficult like you said, and I assume it is this way to ensure we are cannot easily satiate ourselves to keep us on the hunt for sustenance. If only we could find some actual fruits and whole vegetables during early spring!

I never thought to compile a list but i do like wandering around in adventure mode picking fruit and leaves and such and trying them. I play more as a hunter-gatherer i wander around picking what I can, killing things and eating them.

Yeah, hunting is probably what I am going to have to do to keep my Adventurer fed since she started in an area with very few edible leaves and non-existent fruits and whole vegetables—at least for the current season.

However, I am a little concerned about hunting since... it seems difficult to kill things in Dwarf Fortress given the fact that we can make precision-based attacks on parts of their bodies. It makes me wonder if I made a mistake in starting off with an Archer's build.

Leeks are defintely edible

Lovely. ❦

I will add them to the list as well if so.


(E: Buffed out a few typos.)

59
DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« on: November 14, 2019, 02:16:24 am »
I decided to gen a world and an elf adventurer to search for a purple amaranth and its supposedly edible leaves. Unfortunately, I forgot to turn off bogeymen. I didn't find any new edible plants for your list before my head was kicked in. I did find three inedible ones, though. I may pick up the quest again later.
Code: [Select]
You lick the tomato leaf.
You lick the buckwheat leaf.
You lick the peanut leaf.

Added them to the list, and thanks a ton for helping out. ❦

I have been seeing some bad things in these forums about Boogeymen being a nuisance rather than an immersive experience which made me somewhat regret not disabling them before generating my current world, but I think I may be okay since I have two companions tagging along with me on my adventure.

60
DF Adventure Mode Discussion / Re: Edible Vegetation in Adventure Mode
« on: November 14, 2019, 01:12:19 am »
Hmm, I have mostly focused on hunting for food, but spinach is one that I'm sure of. And bloated tuber. And the obvious ones, such as strawberry/blueberry/bilberry, and apricots, plums. And I could've sworn there is an edible flower, but I can't recall its name!

I will add them to the list. :)

Huh, so bilberries themselves are edible but not its leaves. I suppose that makes sense since we cannot eat rhubarb leaves nor do we eat the leaves of... strawberries, but I wonder if some of those fruits and veggies' leaves are actually edible in reality despite us picking them off and tossing them away before we eat the fruits and veggies themselves.

Oh, and is this just regular spinach or one of the colored ones? (I added it as regular spinach just in case.)

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