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Mafia / Re: Not-so Beginner Mafia: Day 1.. well it's actually NIGHT but nm that.
« on: October 14, 2009, 02:38:40 pm »
I just did the ones were he voted, unvoted, or FoS someone.
Random vote, pointing his finger at Leafsnail for anti-fosing me and Pandarsenic for mentioning and saying that it was stupid. Nothing much here.
Basically says Leafsnail and Pandarsenic are scum partners after their first or second posts. Votes Pandarsenic, which is funny because I don't think he ever goes back to him ever. Even after call him out as scum.
FoS two for being quiet, one on a guy that placed a third vote on him.
Throwing out TONS of questions and then unvotes Pandarsenic because his answer is convincing. Votes Leafsnail.
Alright, here's where it gets interesting. Free Beer says that the two scum are Vector and ToonyMan and gives four reasons why. He barks down Vector's neck for a bit the next day and then goes down mine the next. Seeing that Vector is "clear" now I wonder what his verdict on me is. I think it's scum.
Next day. Says we are scum trying to "frame" him.
Finger of Suspicion Diakron for not talking. FUNNY. He doesn't FoS Org for budding with him WHEN THAT'S WHY HE'S GOING AFTER ME.
Webadict comes in, says Leafsnail is scum. SO GUESS WHAT? Also pulls the classic "convince us you aren't scum" thing. I think Webadict does that too.
My turn now.
Free Beer "catches on" to Org budding with him.
That's it really so far. Key points:
Completely ignores Pandarsenic after accusing him of scumitude.
Following Webadict after he said Leafsnail was scum.
Finally "realizing" Org is budding with him.
Also, a nice big fat FoS on Pandarsenic and Org for like not being here. And when they are, doing nothing really.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm going to vote for Diakron.
FoS to Leafsnail and Pandarsenic: Leafsnail for anti-FoS'ing ToonyMan as a response to being attacked, and Pandarsenic for mentioning it and saying that calling Leafsnail out on it was a stupid idea.
Random vote, pointing his finger at Leafsnail for anti-fosing me and Pandarsenic for mentioning and saying that it was stupid. Nothing much here.
Free Beer, it's because I tend to be more worried when ToonyMan's not randomly attacking people than when he is. And why does Pandar deserve an FoS just for mentioning it?
If I proceed under the assumption that you are scum, you made a mistake with your anti-FoS: you just tried to bribe ToonyMan by claiming you thought he was town, thereby giving away the fact that you know more than you're supposed to. You'll notice I made that mistake in Vote Mafia 3, and Pandarsenic made that mistake in Beginner's Mafia 2. I'm not pulling things out of nowhere, here.
Pandarsenic called attention to it and then immediately dismissed it as "stupid" - this is significant since it prevents other people who noticed it from dwelling on it and possibly coming to the conclusion that you are scum. In short, Pandarsenic is covering your back, and he's also being subtle about it. The fact that you are reciprocating and defending him as well definitely does not look good for either of you.
Unvote. Vote Pandarsenic.
Basically says Leafsnail and Pandarsenic are scum partners after their first or second posts. Votes Pandarsenic, which is funny because I don't think he ever goes back to him ever. Even after call him out as scum.
Vector and ToonyMan have been uncharacteristically silent. And I think most of us want a reason from ExKirby.Free beer why did you vote me then unvote me without even wating for a response? so far it is me and Panda that you have voted for. If you are scum don't be so obvious about it...
Diakron, you're accusing me on grounds that I'm not exhibiting tunnel-vision. And what's wrong with voting for Pandarsenic?Free Beer: You're saying I'm scum because I considered what he said, then decided it wasn't as scummy as I'd initially thought, and decided to share my opinion of this?
And that bit about "bribery" is bullshit. "Bribing" never works on Bay12. It's too transparent.
You also didn't say why you thought it was not as scummy. People who look at Leafsnail's action standalone would think "why did he do that?". After your post, people will instead think "Why is it stupid to think that scum would do that?". You've directed the way people consider that particular action.
As for bribing being "bullshit," I never said anything about the success rate. In fact, I explicitly labeled it as a mistake. And if it's so transparent, why aren't you faulting Leafsnail for it? I think you two are sticking up for each other way too much.
It's stupid for scum to draw attention to their partners. If mine did that to me, I would accuse him of trying to buddy up with me, an INNOCENT TOWNIE, and bus him.
I'm saying bribery never works and, like the OMGUS, is a null tell because everyone knows it never works.
ExKirby: Are you placing the third vote on me just for fun?
Pandarsenic, I agree that it is stupid for scum to draw attention to their partners. However, it is not stupid for scum to draw attention to townies - much like you did in Beginner's Mafia 2. I'll ask you again the question that you've been avoiding - why do you think Leafsnail is town?
FoS two for being quiet, one on a guy that placed a third vote on him.
Free Beer seems like he's trying to defend ExKirby, or rather, trying to lead us away from him. ExKirby is acting extremely scummy right now, and Free Beer could be his partner. Note that Free Beer points out ExKirby's bandwagoning but then proceeds to ignore him.
In the quote below, Free Beer acknowledges that ExKirby is suspicious, but deflects to both Vector and Toonyman.
Vector and ToonyMan have been uncharacteristically silent. And I think most of us want a reason from ExKirby.
Something about this doesn't feel right; he's either not pursuing ExKirby because he figures that we're handling him pretty well, or he's trying to subtly shift the balance of votes back onto Pandarsenic.
Apostolic Nihilist, you are accusing me on grounds that I'm not bandwagoning.[...]
I don't think Leafsnail is town. I just don't think that particular action he made was worth pursuing, at least at the time. It's a null tell.
Oh, and ExKirby, name your reasons or die. Honestly. If I won't vote with webadict when he's a confirmed townie until I hear his reasons, I sure as hell won't take this.
I'm satisfied with this answer. Unvote.
Diakron, I repeat my earlier question to you: What was wrong with voting Pandarsenic?
Vector, is the scum group an Abelian group? Why or why not?
Leafsnail, why did you defend Pandarsenic when I voted him? And why did you react so strongly to ToonyMan's accusations toward you, both then and now? Is his opinion of you really so important?
Throwing out TONS of questions and then unvotes Pandarsenic because his answer is convincing. Votes Leafsnail.
To Leafsnail: You make a few good points. And now I've got bigger fish to fry, so Unvote...Dude. ExKirby. It was all tied up before you voted for yourself. If you want Org dead that badly, move your vote over and kill 'im. This is not hard.
...Vector. It's Vector and ToonyMan.
1. The two haven't actually directly addressed each other even once in this thread.
2. They are now coordinated in their efforts to get Org lynched (presumably since ExKirby will be an easy lynch on D2).
3. Thus, they must be communicating privately.
4. Therefore, they are both scum.
Alright, here's where it gets interesting. Free Beer says that the two scum are Vector and ToonyMan and gives four reasons why. He barks down Vector's neck for a bit the next day and then goes down mine the next. Seeing that Vector is "clear" now I wonder what his verdict on me is. I think it's scum.
Recap of last night and early N2 actions:
Vector breaks his rare silence to manipulate ExKirby (town) into attacking Org (probably also town). It is worth mentioning that this is the exact same mistake which gave him away in Beginner's Mafia 1:Dude. ExKirby. It was all tied up before you voted for yourself. If you want Org dead that badly, move your vote over and kill 'im. This is not hard.
ToonyMan breaks his rare silence to defend ExKirby's attack on Org even as he FoS's ExKirby:i would of kept my mouth shut about voting myself in the first place so as not to look so scummy
FoS Toony you are not acting yourself and defending another player...
You can't go back in the past, it's too late now. WHAT WOULD YOU DO? You would vote Org, right? I'm just saying this because your logic is flawed. I still think ExKirby is scum mind you.
I call them out on it:...Vector. It's Vector and ToonyMan.
1. The two haven't actually directly addressed each other even once in this thread.
2. They are now coordinated in their efforts to get Org lynched (presumably since ExKirby will be an easy lynch on D2).
3. Thus, they must be communicating privately.
4. Therefore, they are both scum.
Apoc(Town), and Pandarsenic make non-comittal responses. Vector makes excuses but fails to present any decent points in his own defense. He also contradicts his earlier actions, defending Org despite his earlier attempt to get Org lynched:Or, you know, ExKirby is being a moron and saying "DUR KILL ME THEN KILL ORG," to which I say "If you want Org dead, do the job yourself."
I don't think Org is scum. I think ExKirby is acting funky, and I think he's the best person for the town to kill off for information at this point. I also think that people should be forced to act and play the bloody game. Risks must be taken.[...]
... In summary, let's kill ExKirby and watch Org for a while, because I don't really see why everyone thinks he's scum.
ToonyMan doesn't post for the rest of the night - possibly because he thinks he's dead N2 and is conversing with his partner on how to respond. End N1. Begin N2.
Org tags ToonyMan and quickly unvotes. ToonyMan and Vector again coordinate their actions, this time converging on me. It bears mentioning that Vector produced a half-hearted attack on ToonyMan in hopes of dissociating himself:I vote Free Beer for pairing me with Vector. Nothing is worse than pairing, Pandarsenic does it all the time as scum and screws the Town up doing that.
Yes, you are my second choice besides Org.[...]
Further, ToonyMan: what has happened to all the crazy? You're being quite subdued.
And even more: Free Beer, O scummish fiend, why are you looking for pairs and pulling suspicion off of Org? Further, why vote me first over ToonyMan? I can't see the rationale behind the attack, which makes me worried. Where there is no rationale, there is scum trying to cook up excuses to vote a given person.
You, sir, are next.
It's obvious that Vector and ToonyMan are the scum. Probably most damning is the fact that they DK'd Apostolic - they obviously did so in hopes of drawing suspicion toward me. The scum clearly want me dead, because I have them pegged. Classic scum technique, and it completely gives both of them away.
I could come up with a bandwagoning-on-ExKirby based argument as well, but I like what I've got better.
To Vector and ToonyMan: I'd like to see you two try to talk your way out of this. Emphasis on try, since I fully expect you both to fail miserably, even if you do work together. You know, since you're both scum and all.
Next day. Says we are scum trying to "frame" him.
A mouse scurries by. Its quiet squeaking is the only thing to penetrate the tense silence. Free Beer picks it up by the tail and deposits it in a receptacle for later use.
MOD: Diakron needs to be prodded/replaced. If he's actually here, FoS Diakron for watching us duke it out without providing his own opinion.
Don't take this as having lost focus on Vector, however. He is most definitely scum. Observe: he's got the majority vote, yet he is doing nothing. He's stopped arguing in his own defense (despite the mountain of evidence still waiting for him a few posts back), and he hasn't followed up on any of his suspicions. Everyone responded to his questions ages ago.
What's the matter, Vector? Afraid you'll give off even more scum tells than you already have? Is talking with your scumbuddy really that much more interesting than talking with us?
Finger of Suspicion Diakron for not talking. FUNNY. He doesn't FoS Org for budding with him WHEN THAT'S WHY HE'S GOING AFTER ME.
Analysis of Vector thus far:
I believe I have successfully gotten under Vector's skin. We have seen two sides to Vector thus far. I'll call them "Real Vector" and "Fake Vector." This is because I conjecture that Real Vector expresses what Vector is really thinking, while Fake Vector has a protective shell that prevents people from getting a good read on him.
Real Vector's posts look like this:Consistent explanation... consistent explanation... how about "VT who communicates badly." Oh, wait. Haha. You think that's a lie. You won't believe me. IT'S THE TRUTH, YOU MORON. I'M NOT SCUM HIDING BEHIND LIES AND EXCUSES, I AM TOWN WHO HAPPENS TO FOLLOW A DIFFERENT THOUGHT PROCESS THAN YOU DO. PLEASE STOP BEING AN ASSHOLE. Perhaps you may think the story is too outlandish, that I am in fact Ye Standarde Humann who is just a moron-scum and speaks like a fool and makes a thousand slips. I am trying to tell you the truth, and you are not believing me. I am not trying to make excuses, I am trying to tell you the situation. I am not saying "Don't lynch me because I have teh communication problems and am like someone you need to feel sorry for."
I believe we have seen the following from Real Vector:
-blatant buddying
-very, very angry with me for interrogating him
Fake Vector's posts look like this:So, maybe I'm positively crazy right here, but I feel like we can see a reason for the change--that is, the threatened bannings for people who don't play the damned game.
Frankly, I don't have much of a clue as to what's going on right now... but Pandarsenic, I think it's quite odd that you're trying to off Org for being helpful. He isn't helpful as scum, he isn't helpful as town, he isn't helpful no matter what role or alignment he has.
I think this is clearly an agenda shift. The question is, why don't you?
Further, ToonyMan: what has happened to all the crazy? You're being quite subdued.
And even more: Free Beer, O scummish fiend, why are you looking for pairs and pulling suspicion off of Org? Further, why vote me first over ToonyMan? I can't see the rationale behind the attack, which makes me worried. Where there is no rationale, there is scum trying to cook up excuses to vote a given person.
You, sir, are next.
I believe we have seen the following from Fake Vector:
-Staying behind the scenes and attempting to manipulate people
-Implicitly admitting that he knows certain people (me, Org, Pandarsenic) are town
Both Vectors' actions are extremely scummy. I think the most productive way forward would be to continue to interrogate Real Vector.
Since Vector is currently Fake Vector and it is unlikely that he will return to Real Vector until he gets three or more votes on him, I will Unvote and vote Leafsnail.
So, Leafsnail. Convince us you aren't scum. Go ahead.
Webadict comes in, says Leafsnail is scum. SO GUESS WHAT? Also pulls the classic "convince us you aren't scum" thing. I think Webadict does that too.
Analysis of Vector thus far:
I believe I have successfully gotten under Vector's skin. We have seen two sides to Vector thus far. I'll call them "Real Vector" and "Fake Vector." This is because I conjecture that Real Vector expresses what Vector is really thinking, while Fake Vector has a protective shell that prevents people from getting a good read on him.
Real Vector's posts look like this:Consistent explanation... consistent explanation... how about "VT who communicates badly." Oh, wait. Haha. You think that's a lie. You won't believe me. IT'S THE TRUTH, YOU MORON. I'M NOT SCUM HIDING BEHIND LIES AND EXCUSES, I AM TOWN WHO HAPPENS TO FOLLOW A DIFFERENT THOUGHT PROCESS THAN YOU DO. PLEASE STOP BEING AN ASSHOLE. Perhaps you may think the story is too outlandish, that I am in fact Ye Standarde Humann who is just a moron-scum and speaks like a fool and makes a thousand slips. I am trying to tell you the truth, and you are not believing me. I am not trying to make excuses, I am trying to tell you the situation. I am not saying "Don't lynch me because I have teh communication problems and am like someone you need to feel sorry for."
I believe we have seen the following from Real Vector:
-blatant buddying
-very, very angry with me for interrogating him
Fake Vector's posts look like this:So, maybe I'm positively crazy right here, but I feel like we can see a reason for the change--that is, the threatened bannings for people who don't play the damned game.
Frankly, I don't have much of a clue as to what's going on right now... but Pandarsenic, I think it's quite odd that you're trying to off Org for being helpful. He isn't helpful as scum, he isn't helpful as town, he isn't helpful no matter what role or alignment he has.
I think this is clearly an agenda shift. The question is, why don't you?
Further, ToonyMan: what has happened to all the crazy? You're being quite subdued.
And even more: Free Beer, O scummish fiend, why are you looking for pairs and pulling suspicion off of Org? Further, why vote me first over ToonyMan? I can't see the rationale behind the attack, which makes me worried. Where there is no rationale, there is scum trying to cook up excuses to vote a given person.
You, sir, are next.
I believe we have seen the following from Fake Vector:
-Staying behind the scenes and attempting to manipulate people
-Implicitly admitting that he knows certain people (me, Org, Pandarsenic) are town
Both Vectors' actions are extremely scummy. I think the most productive way forward would be to continue to interrogate Real Vector.
Since Vector is currently Fake Vector and it is unlikely that he will return to Real Vector until he gets three or more votes on him, I will Unvote and vote Leafsnail.
So, Leafsnail. Convince us you aren't scum. Go ahead.
Leafsnail was last active four hours ago. That's midway between Vector's and Pandarsenic's last posts to this thread, for those who aren't keeping track. I take that as a "no" to my question. Leafsnail is definitely high on my suspect list. But I'm more interested in ToonyMan, so I'll stop hitting Leafsnail for now. Unvote.
ToonyMan voted me in the beginning of the Night. His primary motive in doing so appeared to have been the fact that I was voting for Vector instead of him. When I switched to Leafsnail, his argument became not valid. His response? Apparently he wanted to keep voting me because I was voting for Leafsnail instead of him. I think ToonyMan is trying to tell us something. And I think it's that he is scum.
My turn now.
FoS Org for naming me as town and for defending me.
Free Beer "catches on" to Org budding with him.
That's it really so far. Key points:
Completely ignores Pandarsenic after accusing him of scumitude.
Following Webadict after he said Leafsnail was scum.
Finally "realizing" Org is budding with him.
Also, a nice big fat FoS on Pandarsenic and Org for like not being here. And when they are, doing nothing really.