Bay 12 Games Forum

I feel like it's rare for me to feel this damn strong about a player on Day 1. I find it baffling I'm getting handwave'd away with "ooooh, Jack wouldn't doooo thaaaat". Like what the fuck, take me seriously. I'm taking everything you say seriously. I've thought about Webadict and Max's defense of Jack a lot. And it bothers me to no end. I have this 10% waver where I'm like "is Jack really town?" But when I think about it hard, it doesn't add up. And I've done this over and over this weekend.

I don't think Sofanthiel is a good vote. I don't like the players voting them.

I'm trying to lock horns with Jack and figure him out, and he wants nothing to do with me. It's frustrating because I can hear Webadict going "you're just trying to re-affirm your suspicions, you don't plan on changing!" and that isn't true. There are some serious implications if Jack is town. I would really appreciate if he talked about his feelings towards what I said, and also about me even.

In my opinion I have multiple strong reasons why Jack is mafia. I've listed out four clear points for Max as well.

PPE:

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 17, 2023, 11:44:42 pm

Quote from: Maximum Spin on December 17, 2023, 11:27:53 pm

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 17, 2023, 11:22:06 pm

@Imp:
Jack said they just got their Piratechat recently, which again, doesn't make any sense to me.

Where did he say this?

Here:

Quote from: EuchreJack on December 17, 2023, 04:35:47 pm

sofanthiel can have some pressure, sure.

@Imp: I have access to Pirate chat now. I'm lonely.

No, in the context of Imp's question, he's saying "now before anyone else is in it" as opposed to "only after picking buddies".

I don't understand. It still looks like Jack is saying he only just got Piratechat to me, but whatever it makes no sense to me if that's the case so I'll just look at it that way.

Your four lower points just, to me, show a total failure to understand the nature of Jacks.

Can you please explain?

6. Imp says pirates are like mafia so I back that up

I didn't know specifically pirates were red and mafia at that time which is why when I backed Imp up I said something like "at the very least, Pirates are not Town since I inspect as Pirate instead of Town".

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 17, 2023, 11:00:52 pm

This won't stop me from scumhunting to the end, however.

...

Max, please tag in, I need my post restriction intact!

Screw you. neener neener neener

@Webadict:
I AM mad at Jim that he shot Tric. I was expecting to be dead to show how strong I believe Jack is mafia and prove Pirates are mafia.

If Jack is town I can apologize and offer my life. I've already offered my life to this cause. This won't stop me from scumhunting to the end, however.

I don't believe the Mafia would want Jack to die today, because he is more harmful to town while alive. I kept this in mind while doing my reads, this is fully intentional. I would probably feel a little better about you and Max if you were even mildly suspicious of Jack.

Jack won't respond to my question about his feelings when he was first upset. Also, Jack is claiming they are ALSO a pirate miller, just like me. I don't believe it.

Yohoho.

@Lenglon:

I do personally think there are multiple scumteams, but I have no information on the matter myself.

I also feel this way.

Jack: back here you called me to dangerous to risk recruiting, and said you were certain to attempt to recruit Max. I would still prefer for you to not recruit Max or Toony please, and still think it would be unwise for me to explain why I'm making this request. Do you still plan on recruiting Max?

"Also, um, I think dangerous is a compliment, probably... um..."
shuffles feet
"Thanks."

"You're so dangerous Lenglon~"

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@Webadict:

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 17, 2023, 01:54:09 pm

He could have asked Jim to kill him instead of publicly requesting to be modkilled.

Not sure it has to be explained that he asked for death early on, but I was the one that defended him.  You can't really hold that against him that he had hope that people might understand.

His suicide-baiting is annoying. He wants to die, but won't vote Jim. He self-votes to die, but then backs out of it. He asks to be mod killed publicly in the thread (instead of sending a PM) only to rescind it. This lack of conviction is bad character, regardless of alignment. Do I read him as town for it? No, I can't do it.

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@Imp:

Quote from: notquitethere on December 17, 2023, 06:25:41 pm

could explain a little more clearly why you think EJ is in the clear?

[words]

Why would Jack get their Piratechat now instead of at the start of the game? I am annoyed how FoU has been handling this game if true.

I don't trust Jack at all.

I think your reasoning works if Jack has a team, but I believe he started the game as the only mafia in the "Pirate" group. I can only speculate on his true role, maybe he can pass his alignment to a Piratechat member if he were to die. Something that would be balanced and that Meph would be okay with while reviewing.

I really don't believe Max's idea that Pirates may not be actual players in this game. That feels very wrong to me. Everything in my mind tells me they are here and Jack is the key. Jack has not responded to me asking him to tell me his exact feelings when he was upset early on in the game here. I think this is scummy.

TricMagic being a potential SK...how many non-Pirate Mafia members would there be here if Jack is town? If Jack is mafia?

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More Than 48 Hours Reads:

Town (will defend hardcore)
Imp - town as fuck, I don't know why Max scumreads them, I don't think I've played with Imp before but I read their play as very town

Leantown (will probably defend)
Knightwing - I guess he's town, thinks I'm mean for attacking Jack, I feel like he wouldn't care if he was mafia
Jim - Jim took the first opportunity to not shoot me, I feel like mafia!Jim would have hesitated at least a little to get a free juicy kill on me with no downside if he was mafia unless he knows this is going to win him favors with me...which I think I'm going to dismiss.
Egan - probably not mafia, I can see the argument that they're a hunter, but they're probably just town
BlackHeart - agrees with me about Jack, was willing to vote Jim even though they could have died the same way as Tric, probably town?
Lenglon - I think their case on Kitten is fine, don't have bad feelings from them

Neutral (don't have a strong stance)
NQT - I think they've been handsoff and sideline-y, agrees with me about Jack on the same level as Hector, null
Sofanthiel - Don't have a strong opinion, sorry, seems similar to Canadian Kitten to me but appears better to me, maybe because I don't like the people voting them

Wary (basically Neutral, but for the Big 3 players sorry Jim)
Webadict - they seem to have good intentions, they could be right about Jack, but they're showing a strong amount of levelheadedness here, how are they this confident about Jack? They shouldn't even have as much information as me.
Hector - unlike Web and Max, Hector is on my side about Jack being suspicious. I can't trust them for actually agreeing with me about this though, null
Max - very similar to Web, they're playing 4D chess together, do not trust, probably trust less than Web and Hector?

Shady (who?)
Secretdorf - I don't have anything
Crystalmire - Need to look into more
Elephant Parade - I'm having a hard time thinking of anything about them, I think this is a bad sign, maybe moreso than the others
Canadian Cat - they look opportunistic to me and haven't had a fair shake, to be fair this applies to many players

Scum (I think are mafia)
Jack - I think he's outed scum. My pragmatic brain is telling me his emotional appeals are fake and he's mad about slipping due to mod error, I want him to express his feelings on that part because it feels like he is reluctant to do so.


Wary and Shady are basically the same thing I just separated out the veterans. I wouldn't vote players that are in "Leantown" or higher. I could summarize this list as: "list of players I think are town, followed by players I'm mixed about including veterans, followed by players I have almost no feelings on, followed by Jack".

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 17, 2023, 01:26:20 pm

@Max:
If Jack is town then why wouldn't he vote Jim with me? Why does he care about survival so much?

Seems like normal Jack to me? He joined because he wants to play a game, he doesn't want to get kicked out of it in the first turn, until you ruin his day so much that he gets into a cassandra-complex hissy fit.

He could have asked Jim to kill him instead of publicly requesting to be modkilled.

I believe Fallacy would come up with a decoy faction name under some circumstances, yes. I also believe that Fallacy would have an alignment people can inspect as that isn't a real alignment anyone actually has.

I can believe this if Jack is town.

I think Jack would want to do that because he overvalues private chats, as you very well know, and, besides, making other players millers isn't that big a deal when this is a big complicated BYOR and there's already at least one claimed super-inspect floating around. I also believe Fallacy would definitely be willing to set a game up that way. I also think that it's entirely plausible that a town Jack could make three players inspect as a specific kind of mafia, when it's possible that those players may never have been town to begin with, godfather abilities that this would nullify could be in play, and who knows what else.

I believe Jack said they also inspect as Pirate.

That's, at a minimum, five players that would inspect as Pirate after the first night.

That's six players that would be millers if I believe your claims, which I don't.

I think it would be stupid to have a setup like this if Pirates did not exist as actual players. Jack's ability is mainly a benefit to them. If he is town I don't think it's correct to use it. I don't really agree with Lenglon's points.

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 17, 2023, 11:30:12 am

Quote from: Crystalizedmire on December 17, 2023, 10:34:42 am

But you are already voting him. Besides, I genuinely think that Canadian Kitten is just overwhelmed and not scum this time

Why?

I find it reasonable that he's overwhelmed. Anyone who wasn't following along from the start will likely be confused on what's happening so I find it reasonable that Canadian Kitten is genuinely confused. This doesn't exclude the possibility that he's scum. My reason for believing Canadian Kitten is town is vibes.

Okay.

I still think that webadict's town and I have less of a scum vibe from Egan now.

I also think Web and Egan are probably town, or at least, not mafia.

PPE:

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2023, 11:38:24 pm

Why did you say it as "EuchreJack was given the town role Pirate King"? This makes it seem like FoU gave you the name.

(BTW, since this has been asked of EuchreJack's phrasing twice, I want to confirm that I didn't name my role, Fallacy gave it a weird name of his own.)

I got my exact role name I submitted. Which probably has something to do with pirates.

If I had to guess, me and Jack are the only players that submitted a role that has to do with pirates. A third player (or more) is possible, but I don't believe it's likely. Imp seems all dream and Lord of the Rings related, and Egan was doing RTD dungeon master stuff. A theoretical third pirate would have been silent for everything so far (which is understandable if they're mafia), besides the fact that Jack can makes three additional players inspect as Pirate...I don't believe Jack looks very good here. Pirates are another type of mafia, this is the truth.

Webadict is correct that I am thinking quite little of a mafia!Jack who would behave in this way, which can be seen as insulting of their skill level, but I think ignoring my convictions would be equally as incompetent of me.

@Jack:

Quote from: ToonyMan on December 16, 2023, 11:19:18 pm

I'm going to get really mean and say FoU messed up coloring Pirate because it's your alignment, which is mafia. This is why you got so pissy around here towards everyone. I don't believe you would have gotten upset like this if you were Town. It sucks and there's ways to blame people about making mistakes, but I don't want to get into that.

Why did you react like this in the part I linked? What were you mad about specifically? Which players (or FoU) were you mad at the most? Why?

I would still like an answer to this.

Asking to get modkilled is dumb and doesn't help anything.

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I agree with Lenglon's suspicion of Canadian Kitten. Lenglon's case on Kitten is reasonable.