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Messages - ToonyMan

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4576
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 28, 2020, 06:15:01 pm »
Webadict
Can I have reminder of how much time there is left in the day? I’ve been struck by unexpected family visits and I’d like to know how much time I have left to make my reads list.
I'd like a vote count too.



I don't know how masons are classified in Webadict's games.
Why would it be any different? It's not webadict classifying anything, it's me and 4maskwolf looking at our alignment and ability to talk to each other and saying "we're masons."
Or do you suspect there's more to BYOR masons than the standard variety? Of course there is, but asking for the details of that would be what I'd call rolefishing.
I know you don't like me and I don't like you, but I'm paranoid and that's why I'm double checking with Webadict.

Rolefishing players who, by your own admission, you believe to probably be masons and have an understandable, if not one your agree with, reason to claim when they did.
I think I could believe that, which is really frustrating since I find it incredibly humiliating against my townplay to be the vote candidate of masons. I definitely disagree with both of your plays this day, but I see why you want me dead right now.
I think it's fairly likely you are masons, and it baffles me you wouldn't claim at the beginning of a day if this is true. Why did IcyTea self-vote when you could confirm each other at the start of today? I'm not super familiar with mason play, but I believe that's the right play, or at least hold off on claiming today if you want to be sneaky.
I only think you're telling the truth because betting half your mafia team on me is incredibly stupid. I'm so pissed either way.

I'm also kind of mad it's just the two people confirming themselves and me here, what the fuck town?



PPE:
Hey Jim. I don't think I'm the protagonist this time.

4577
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 28, 2020, 05:45:44 pm »
I know what masons are.
You give a paragraph on how you know or almost know that, but don't answer the question. Why are you asking what masons are, when you already know?
A mason is literally defined as being a town-aligned player in a secret chat, so your question to webadict is just "are the masons in this game masons?"
Clearly I don't know what masons are if you're asking that. Sorry, I didn't understand the question.

I know what masons are in mafia in general.

I don't know how masons are classified in Webadict's games.

4578
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 28, 2020, 05:29:55 pm »
2. IcyTea was lying! He's in a faction with 4maskwolf, my feelings were exactly on point.
I've been trying hard not to intentionally lie, at most withhold information. Got an example of a direct lie I've told?
I don't. I got the lie feeling mainly from your vote on Heydude and subsequent banter after.

Quote
The reason why I think claiming at the start of the day is better, if you're going to claim at all, is because having two nearly confirmed townies to work with for the whole day is pretty good You'd be able to make pretty convincing scumhunting arguments that people would have a hard time dismissing as scum lies. If one of you still seriously got lynched, it would confirm the other player and all of town would know for the night phase.
And why can't these things be done now? Our arguments are still there, newly bolstered, and lynching one of us would still confirm the other.
True. However, I believe self-voting was done to deliberately troll which makes me upset, town shouldn't act anti-town on purpose.

Quote
Were you afraid of being lynched after this post by FoU?
Nah, this was planned from the start.
4maskwolf backs this claim up too, why guys...seriously why...
*places head in hands*

Quote
Dude I'm not super familiar with mason play myself, but I've seen some games of it and that's what I would do because it makes sense.
I'm asking because I'm so fucking flabbergasted by your behavior today, and I don't see masons in the alignment list, pretty reasonable conclusion to make isn't it??
And yet, in your above argument, you refer to the hypothetical masons as "nearly confirmed townies". Even in the post you linked, you say "you could confirm each other". Why are you asking mechanical questions you already know the answers to?
I know what masons are. I have read games with masons. I have most likely played games with masons years ago. I don't remember ever being a mason, but maybe I have. Anyway, that's my take of what masons are like from my own mafia experience and I think it's the correct one. I'm not "super familiar" because I don't have a personal connection with them in forever, and I've only read some games recently with them *cough* Raging Loop *cough* and that's how they played it, which I agree with.

4579
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 28, 2020, 05:11:33 pm »
I'm not asking you to make cases on 15 people. I am asking you to, if you think you know who the scumteam is, put your vote there and ask some questions.
I have! My lynch picks aren't answering the phone! TricMagic isn't responding! Leafsnail isn't responding! I would vote both if I could!

4580
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 28, 2020, 05:09:19 pm »
I haven't voted Leafsnail yet but it's very tempting.

4581
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 28, 2020, 05:00:33 pm »
I'm asking because I'm so fucking flabbergasted by your behavior today, and I don't see masons in the alignment list, pretty reasonable conclusion to make isn't it??
Masons... aren't an alignment and never have been?  It doesn't actually change your win condition, you're just town.
I don't really remember masons in past BYORs so I apologize if that's true.

@Webadict:
How do masons work? Are they just town alignment? Do they get a quicktopic together?

4582
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 28, 2020, 04:52:06 pm »
@Vector:
As you all know, Toony hasn't been posting that much or that involved. Then he posts a big 'ol wall of text. Part of that wall is of particular interest to me.
I think I've been posting plenty. Every real-life day since the day started I've done at least one big post and one small post. I don't like typing huge paragraphs but I would consider my participation "involved".

1. There is not a lot of evidence mentioned in relationship to this list. For example, I honestly can't recall anything I ever said that could be remotely construed as "buddying." The "seems calculated part," sure, I calculate. Point is: not a lot of evidence mentioned for the first player Toony is claiming to have scummy behavior. You can examine the rest of the list yourself.
1. You voted TricMagic immediately after I did, for the same reasons.
2. You didn't pressure me at the start of the day at all, until I pointed it out. Your response after.

2. Having assembled a lot of these lists as scum in my day, one of the key things you want to do is characterize people broadly as scummy without pointing to specific actions and posts. This covers your butt on later days ("I'm suspicious of everyone, that's why I don't have cases! Sure, let's join another bandwagon", or alternatively "funny how my suspects keep flipping town, how annoying, but you must recall that so-and-so did something scummy a long time ago as I mentioned"). It also helps you keep out of the spotlight by not saying too much. People can't use your lists to figure out who your buddies are because you say that everyone is suspicious.
Why is suspecting most players on Day 1 a scum tell?

3. Check the proposed scumteams vs. who has a "scum lean" in Toony's list. The claim is that NQT, 4mask, and juicebox have a scum lean and that ICT is lying a lot. Of these four, only one made the list of proposed scumteams. He also manages to suggest that 7 out of 16 players are his candidates for being on the teams he mentions. In the process, he points the finger at every veteran player other than himself.
1. Scum lean for anybody I thought was null, but also not posting much.
2. IcyTea was lying! He's in a faction with 4maskwolf, my feelings were exactly on point.
3. Maybe I suspect veteran players more because they should know better?

-> Making a meta point: Please recall what Toonyman is famous for, the Toony Tunnel. Note that "calling everyone scum" is quite literally the opposite of that.
You're embarrassing me. If you're going to meta scum tell me, then at least realize I haven't wanted to associate with "Toony Tunnel" since like 2011. Look at my play in games around like 2012-2015, I think those hold up best to how I want to play mafia.

4. Along those lines, check who Toony has been interacting with and voting vs. who has a "scum lean" in Toony's list. He's been allowing a hell of a lot to slide.
You only decided to go "fuck it' after Jim pushed you into action. How do you feel about Leafsnail as well then?

5. We've all claimed that it would be better to lynch scum than a third party D1 if we can do it. Toony apparently has a strong belief that ICT and Leafsnail are scum. Jim and FallacyofUrist make up the other two pieces of, in his point of view, an "obvious" scumteam. There is, frankly, enough evidence to hang FoU ten times over if Toony were actually motivated to do anything about the "obvious scum." ICT was the main focus of discussion for a long time. Why is he still voting Tric?
Because at best TricMagic isn't helping town and is third-party. I think you and Leafsnail would be my next votes if Tric was off the table.



@Luckyowl:
I don't think your case on IcyTea and FallacyofUrist makes sense. 4mask and IcyTea are confirming each other as "masons". Yes, all three could be mafia, but all we'd have to do is lynch one (preferably IcyTea here I think) and it'll either damn 4mask as mafia or confirm 4mask as pro-town.



@Leafsnail, TricMagic:
Have any insight on this?



PPE:

@IcyTea:
I think it's fairly likely you are masons, and it baffles me you wouldn't claim at the beginning of a day if this is true. Why did IcyTea self-vote when you could confirm each other at the start of today? I'm not super familiar with mason play, but I believe that's the right play, or at least hold off on claiming today if you want to be sneaky.
This way, I could both make the claim early enough for it to matter, and to use it as a sneaky safety net for a gambit. What advantage would the town have got if we claimed earlier that we didn't get by claiming now?
The reason why I think claiming at the start of the day is better, if you're going to claim at all, is because having two nearly confirmed townies to work with for the whole day is pretty good. You'd be able to make pretty convincing scumhunting arguments that people would have a hard time dismissing as scum lies. If one of you still seriously got lynched, it would confirm the other player and all of town would know for the night phase.

Instead, you wasted most of the day being an idiot and not confirming yourself while 4mask barely did anything. And then claimed anyway! Were you afraid of being lynched after this post by FoU? That's such terrible town play if you're telling the truth.

I don't see masons in the alignment rules. Is that the actual name it's going by?
Our alignment is Town, of course. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be masons.
EBWOP: Say, why are you asking? Since you knew the "correct" play for masons, clearly you should already know the mechanics well enough?
Dude I'm not super familiar with mason play myself, but I've seen some games of it and that's what I would do because it makes sense.

I'm asking because I'm so fucking flabbergasted by your behavior today, and I don't see masons in the alignment list, pretty reasonable conclusion to make isn't it??

4583
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 28, 2020, 04:13:44 pm »
Writing a post right now, but I can respond to that now 4mask:

I won’t speak for the specifics of IcyTea’s mentality re: that self-vote, but I’d always intended to claim today, it was just a matter of getting agreement from Icy. Once his whole self-vote thing started we were holding it in reserve in case he got too much heat and wound up in serious jeopardy, but the wagon fell apart over the course of yesterday and he’s gone back to a more normal playstyle so there’s no reason to hold it as a trap card (and also, trying to use “masons” as a get out of jail free past day one or maybe two is super sus). This morning was just the first time we were both online and in agreement.
I think I could believe that, which is really frustrating since I find it incredibly humiliating against my townplay to be the vote candidate of masons. I definitely disagree with both of your plays this day, but I see why you want me dead right now.

Another question:
I don't see masons in the alignment rules. Is that the actual name it's going by?

4584
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 28, 2020, 03:37:19 pm »
4mask & IcyTea:
Icy tea and I are masons.
Uh huh. Makes sense to protect your buddy IcyTea.
This is such a horrendously bad take I have difficulty seeing it as anything other than a scum knee-jerk. Protect him from what, the one person voting him? There are plenty of legitimate concerns that could be raised around our claim, but “you’re just trying to protect him” after the wagon has already collapsed isn’t one of them.
Icy tea and I are masons.
Uh huh. Makes sense to protect your buddy IcyTea.
This is literally the opposite of what is happening (anti-wifom planned reveal aside). The best reads on 4maskwolf in this game were "I forgot he was playing", and I think more people were waiting on answers from him than on anyone else besides maybe Tric and you.
Sorry, this is a misunderstanding I should have cleared up earlier. I'm not implying you're scum buddies. Mafia would be giving up half of their team to lynch me, I don't believe that's true at all. I think it's likely you both aren't mafia.

I think it's fairly likely you are masons, and it baffles me you wouldn't claim at the beginning of a day if this is true. Why did IcyTea self-vote when you could confirm each other at the start of today? I'm not super familiar with mason play, but I believe that's the right play, or at least hold off on claiming today if you want to be sneaky.

4585
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 28, 2020, 09:33:16 am »
PFP

Well, I'm not claiming shit unless I'm going to die in a few minutes from a lynch. I don't like everybody claiming on Day 1. If scum want to hammer to silence me before I can claim feel free.
So...you're going to go silent now to avoid spilling your buddies
This isn't true, at all. I'm spilling my guts if I'm 100% certain of my lynch because I know I'll flip town. It's probably pretty reasonable I could get votes off me by full-claiming, but this only benefits scum's decision-making at night. If this wasn't Day 1 I might consider claiming earlier if I was pressured (or had really damning evidence on scum).

Stop playing bad if you're really a mason.

rather than mount a defence? A townie would want to avoid a mislynch.
Yeah, I don't want a mislynch. TricMagic and Leafsnail (and Vector now) haven't responded to me, which you can't see because they aren't here.
I just said my piece for everybody's cases on me right above. I'm not rolling over to die, there's plenty of time in the day and players to suspect who just need to be here now.

My lynch pick right now is either TricMagic or Leafsnail. I have questions waiting on both of them as well as Vector. I'll be able to post more fully later in the real life day.

4586
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 28, 2020, 08:55:29 am »
PFP

@Vector:
I inherently don't trust most people in a game of mafia, sorry. Why is this suspicious?

It's not reasonable for a player to build 15 cases against every other player. Most players I haven't seriously interacted with, this is going to happen on a 16 player Day 1. Same is true for most players.

@dolores & NJW2000:
Your suspicions are justified. I do have knowledge that makes me think Heydude is likely benign. No, it's not because I'm scum. Yes, it's because of an ability. I didn't instantly think Heydude was town after two posts, it starts here. I would have been upset if he was modkilled after I just learned useful info (plus I think he's town so that helps us if he doesn't get modkilled).

@4mask & IcyTea:
Icy tea and I are masons.
Uh huh. Makes sense to protect your buddy IcyTea.

Well, I'm not claiming shit unless I'm going to die in a few minutes from a lynch. I don't like everybody claiming on Day 1. If scum want to hammer to silence me before I can claim feel free.

4587
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 27, 2020, 11:00:38 pm »
@NJW2000:
Why is the possibility that Heydude is scum and worried that a townie sent the contract (forcing him to reveal it immediately) so hard to grasp?
Sure, it's possible. My stance is that I don't think that's true. I understand your argument towards me.

Do you know he's town? Did you send the contract yourself, and thus find it difficult to envision someone calling him out for holding on to the information?
No it's not 100%, but I'm still siding with the feeling he's not mafia. I'm generally going to be suspicious of most people, but having some anti-mafia feels isn't the end of the world. No I didn't send the contract. Whoever did this clearly doesn't want to claim or they would have.

NJW2000 there's some things I'd like to know what you think, what are your feelings towards dolores? Towards Vector? Towards Leafsnail? I'm pretty curious what you think of them.



@4maskwolf:
Leafsnail feels like a combination between old-school "tunnel at cases from untouched angles" Leafsnail with Para 25 "low effort" Leafsnail.  Don't have enough experience with him to know what exactly that means.  Moving him down to my neutral pile for now.
It's either he's genuinely busy or he's quiet because he's scum. I'm thinking the latter.



@FallacyofUrist:
ToonyMan: Do you have anything solid on the recent proceedings to offer currently?
Yep, I'd like to make a reads list of everyone before the day ends. Should be at the bottom of this post once I get down there.

I feel like notquitethere, dolores, heydude, and Vector have been working solidly in the town's interests, though of course I'll reevaluate this as the game goes on.
While NQT's vote analysis is helpful for town, it's a null read for him I feel.



@Tricmagic:
I looked at those but none of those strike me as unfriendly to the scum team, which is what TricMagic claimed.
It wasn't? Kinda felt like it with the votes coming in and pressure being applied.
Also, what did I claim? Friendliness? No Bonk negates kills made by the wearer, so it's an option to buy it and give it to another?
Indeed. If you had picked No Bonk instead then we could have all openly bought a badge and stuck it onto someone else in a big loop chain. Sure it probably would have ran into problems because of shenanigans, but it could potentially stop kills from going off at night. You ignored my question where I asked you about this.



@Leafsnail:
Leafsnail:  Do you have anything on anyone other than Tric?  I saw you mention Vector, but you've not done a damn thing to develop that.  Why?
Think I'm going to +1 Toaster here. Leafsnail you haven't interacted with anyone besides TricMagic and Vector (barely). Why?



I'm going to bold people I've interacted with more, feel free to point out anything.

Reads, from most town to most scum:

ToonyMan, I'm town
gap
Heydude - contract logic, is also giving huge reads on everyone which I like
Luckyowl - newb
NJW2000 - I think we're getting some good insight out of them...hopefully
Nirur Torir - seems okay?
Vector - feel like they're buddying me, does throw shade on me, but seems calculated
dolores - typing a lot of words, don't know, does claim a secondary wincon
NQT - pretty quiet, he'd do a vote analysis regardless, scum lean
Toaster - same boat as Vector, I think they're more suspicious but I agree with their IcyTea argument
4maskwolf - seems like they're trying? scum lean
Juicebox - barely know they exist, scum lean
IcyTea - dumbly voted themselves, contract logic makes me more suspicious of them then Heydude, feel like they're lying a lot
UristofFallacy - playing bad should know better?
Jim Groovester - lazy lazy lazy
Leafsnail - too quiet, hiding something?
TricMagic - has no interest in the town, defeatist logic that everyone voting them is scum, don't do this



PPE:
Looks like we're getting reads from other players and Juicebox is here, nice.

@Juicebox:
Toonyman, Given that a 4 person mafia team has been confirmed, who are your other suspects for the mafia team? Who's your strongest townread and why? Do you consider IcyTea's slip to be an actual slip, or do you think they were just fishing for reactions?
Sure. If I had to pick the 4 person mafia team right now it'd be one of two sets:

The obvious team:
Leafsnail, Jim Groovester, UristofFallacy, IcyTea

The wildcard team:
Leafsnail, IcyTea, Vector or dolores, Toaster or Vector

Do you consider IcyTea's slip to be an actual slip, or do you think they were just fishing for reactions?
I did laugh at him to get more of a response, but I'm not entirely sure it's a slip. I would be voting him over TricMagic if I was that confident.

4588
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 27, 2020, 09:24:03 pm »
PFP

On a side note, I've been reading BYOR 0 for funsies -- and people think that Doll/Dolores and I sound alike? Are you shitting me?!
Hahahahaha. Maybe I've changed over the past few years. Well, I hope you know definitively now that we're not the same person. Love to y'all.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
No way. I don't feel Bookthras at all.

4589
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 27, 2020, 12:12:53 pm »
That list in blue was a list of people I was suspicious enough to try to send fries to in addition to Tric. Apparently it didn't quite work? Mostly? I only lost one carton of fries instead of the four cartons of fries I was shipping out.

So... someone probably has fries right now? But just one person? I admit I'm a bit miffed, since I gain a good bit of value from having people have my fries.
So...Jim if that wasn't redirected too.

4590
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Day 1 - The Badge Seller
« on: December 27, 2020, 11:34:19 am »
@FallacyofUrist:
Jim Groovester, ToonyMan, 4maskwolf, I also have my eyes on y'all.
I was also fried today. I assume this was your doing. I don't know what this entails but we shall see.
Disregard this. Webadict informed me this was an error I guess.

To note, apparently I wasn't meant to be sent fries. Webadict has a 'holiday brain' as they said.
Same. FoU probably did target somebody but not us?

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