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Messages - ToonyMan

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6091
Also, the second statement is up for fallibility. He could've organized a team with spies in it, but then they would've laid low just to put the assumption that he's clean
If the spies laylow on the first mission then they're making a really bad move.

Quote
I don't really like this though, I'd much prefer if the team we organize we actually have fairly confident town reads instead of putting people with suspicions in there.  If I were you Tiruin I would put myself and two people I could see not being spies.
So let's go on with the next team:
Tiruin
Toaster
Leafsnail
Fine, I'll up-vote this.



I decided I'd rather see relational tells from Nerjin since I didn't have much of a read on him at that point, but Tiruin appears reasonably town and honest about his reads so I'm prepared to allow his self-nomination.
Is that so...I will say I couldn't understand half of what he was saying, but he self-nominated and the other two picks I can agree with for now.

6092
Toony: So, in general, are you for or against ppl including themselves in the team?
For.  I don't think I've changed my opinion on this since my "second" real post.

@Nerjin:
Fix your formatting and wait for me to post.  :P

6093
By "myself" I mean you, Tiruin for the second reply.  :P

6094
@Toony: So just because Nerjin picked the team mentioned, why are you against it? Have you a deep enough read of him to validate 'scum' in your eyes?
1.  It was RNG'd
2.  A spy would be nuts to organize a team with no spies in it

Now an explanation on the picks. We have three of the newest, or perhaps the people who are...particularly unknown except for what they post - no meta, or much visible experience on this board. NQT has shown to be quite the logician, Ford with a mindset based partly on correlations, and Nerjin by his...how do I say...shifting wording? I mean, in his first posts, he goes aggressive at poking posts in an overt manner (this is wifom [post], no explanation given to support such), and then goes on along the probability train, ending up with a random team roll.
This may seem like a meta tell, but if a sabotage goes through, I believe it will be easier to see who is whom.
I don't really like this though, I'd much prefer if the team we organize we actually have fairly confident town reads instead of putting people with suspicions in there.  If I were you Tiruin I would put myself and two people I could see not being spies.  That way, if the mission fails you know that 1. it has to be one of those two (or both) and 2. you can now rethink the issue instead of just going "see one of them were spies!!!"

Unless you're a spy of course.

Also, a small hypothesis: 5 missions where one of them, the fourth, requires 2/3 to be scum to succeed and 1/3 to succeed (assuming they don't lay low). This is a non-NK game. We have 10 players. Assuming a 4/6 ratio (GG states generalities >_<), 4 - spy, 6 - town at best, 3/7 or even 5/5 at worst. The former is judged against the scumteam, and the latter against the town, but putting all pertinent probabilities in anyway.
There's 4 spies and 6 town.  GG has also said this, here.

6095
Interesting.
Ford: Why did you down vote?
Dariush: Why did you up vote?
Dariush up voting isn't too surprising, but I'm confused about Ford's choice too.  If he made the vote early on it doesn't make sense to me, but if it was recent I can see why because he's trying to show he's not actually defending Nerjin:
Also, (@Toony), I'm not defending Nerjin so much as trying to figure out who's been handing out crazy pills to all the "smart" players.



Question though: We have DS, Toast and Me. Why all the downvotes? Because Nerjin picked them or...?
That's the largest reason I voted No, yeah.  I'm not going to allow a group that a suspected spy arranged, even if they did RNG in one try.

6096
2. If a spy wanted to know a rebel rolename, would you have told them one? Would you have sent them a role PM?
Yes. Since the flavour doesn't mean anything gamewise, I'd be more than happy to send it to anyone asking for it, name included. Obviously, the spies have their cover-flavour that would be sent instead, and it does take some of the fun out of the game, but since it's not mechanically meaningful I don't really see it as an issue if people want to clarify stuff with it.
On second thought, sharing flavour would be boring and dumb. And I can confirm no on has asked for flavour text anyways. For for Rolename, yeah, sure, I'd have no problem sharing that.
That's good, because I included a phrase from my flavor in my first post.  Although Ford says here that all role flavors are probably different?  It's possible, I tried grabbing the words that stood out the most.

The fact that all four of you are pushing it so much is making a pretty strong case to me that you're all spies, because rebels would have the perspective to realize how full of holes it is.
And you're defending Nerjin because you're a spy as well isn't more likely?  Smaller conspiracies trump larger ones.

6097
@Nerjin:
If you're not going to say you're a Freedom Fighter then that would make you a spy.  There is absolutely no other conclusion.  Why are you rejecting this idea??  My feeling is that you didn't actually know you're a Freedom Fighter, because you're not.
I'm a freedom fighter. Did that make me magically 100% rebel to you? Does it effect anything other than me saying "I'm a freedom fighter"? No? Well look at that, you've wasted everyone's time pursuing something that doesn't mean a damn thing.
Does it?  I think everybody can judge for themselves from how you're acted to that.

ToonyMan:
There are multiple problems with your assertion that Nerjin is a spy and me and Dariush are spies by association.
First of all, spies want to be on teams with rebels, because they want to be associated with rebels, both to cast suspicion on them and to clear themselves.
Secondly, if his first proposal fails, then it's very likely the people he put up the first time will be excluded from any other teams that are assembled, which would greatly hurt the chances of getting a spy on the mission. I don't think Nerjin would take that kind of risk.
Yeah I'll agree with you there, at the very least Nerjin is a spy.  And someone on his RNG team.
I'm not a spy, and I can prove it using your logic. "I am a freedom fighter." by your logic I am now a rebel. Either way I don't know if someone on that team is a spy. Like I've said, I don't really know who to send honestly and I don't like being in power.
Don't make it that simple, role-claiming is largely about delivery in this case and you needed quite a bit of prodding before admitting that yes, you're a rebel.  The fact you don't know who to send and don't like being in power either makes you passive town or a spy.

Because you don't know the name of your role?  I would have accepted some other rebel-sounding name (it's possible GG wrote up multiple names to shake the town up), but with that strike-through and the fact I highly doubt GG called you a 'Trustworthy Player' makes me doubt you extremely.
*stares in disbelief*
Is role-claiming such a baffling idea (in a game with no nights or power roles) to catch scum?  Don't you find it odd that Nerjin won't say he's a Freedom Fighter?
... ... ... Does Dariush play a lot of games with you? If so I think I may have found out why he gets a little miffed at people.
Role-claiming doesn't mean a damn thing at this point in the game. It's a null-tell. A spy can just as easily say "I am a Freedom Fighter." why do you pursue this so doggedly?
Hehe, I know it won't work anymore.  But I'm glad I was able to use it on you.  Obviously the spies can now claim Freedom Fighter pretty easily, but that was not the case when this started.  Not saying Freedom Fighter in that response was your biggest mistake and I was making a clear point.

ToonyMan: If you couldn't choose yourself, what team of 3 would you like to see go on the mission, and why?
I'd replace myself with you, Captain Ford.  Toaster and Leafsnail would be the same reasons as before and I'd be interested in what happens, either it all goes well (even if you're a spy you just wasted your sabotage) or it fails and I'd have absolute proof one of you three is a spy.  I would of course be rooting for the former.
"I'm going to just send a team with a suspected spy, who I suspect personally, and just assume that everything's gonna go to hell."
Sounds responsible, has my vote.
Says the spy.

Seriously... Next person to bring up this whole "Freedom Fighter" thing is going to recieve scathing words from me. Let's stop focusing on what equates to a grain of sand in a desert and instead focus on something more important shall we?
"Please ignore my huge scum error."

6098
General Discussion / Re: I like anime, do you like anime?
« on: February 11, 2013, 01:14:19 pm »
Everybody should see Redline, it's a film so it's not like you're wasting too much of your time.

6099
@Nerjin:
If you're not going to say you're a Freedom Fighter then that would make you a spy.  There is absolutely no other conclusion.  Why are you rejecting this idea??  My feeling is that you didn't actually know you're a Freedom Fighter, because you're not.



ToonyMan:
There are multiple problems with your assertion that Nerjin is a spy and me and Dariush are spies by association.
First of all, spies want to be on teams with rebels, because they want to be associated with rebels, both to cast suspicion on them and to clear themselves.
Secondly, if his first proposal fails, then it's very likely the people he put up the first time will be excluded from any other teams that are assembled, which would greatly hurt the chances of getting a spy on the mission. I don't think Nerjin would take that kind of risk.
Yeah I'll agree with you there, at the very least Nerjin is a spy.  And someone on his RNG team.

Because you don't know the name of your role?  I would have accepted some other rebel-sounding name (it's possible GG wrote up multiple names to shake the town up), but with that strike-through and the fact I highly doubt GG called you a 'Trustworthy Player' makes me doubt you extremely.
*stares in disbelief*
Is role-claiming such a baffling idea (in a game with no nights or power roles) to catch scum?  Don't you find it odd that Nerjin won't say he's a Freedom Fighter?

ToonyMan: If you couldn't choose yourself, what team of 3 would you like to see go on the mission, and why?
I'd replace myself with you, Captain Ford.  Toaster and Leafsnail would be the same reasons as before and I'd be interested in what happens, either it all goes well (even if you're a spy you just wasted your sabotage) or it fails and I'd have absolute proof one of you three is a spy.  I would of course be rooting for the former.

6100
I highly doubt GG called you a 'Trustworthy Player' makes me doubt you extremely.
Wow, even in a game without lynches you manage to be a tunneling word-twisting fuckhole from day one.
Sorry.

Decrement the number in the link URL by 1. (3917841->3917840->3917839 and so on) Go on a journey of pathetic failure to do a basic 1d10 roll.
On the other hand, I see that the results Nerjin gave are indeed the first ones rolled. While that doesn't make him 100% town in my eyes, it sure helps.
Way to go, the scum got lucky.  I'm sure at least one of those three players is a spy.
You're SURE? Do I need to remind you about the only circumstance in which you are SURE that someone is a spy?
I'm fairly suspicious of Nerjin, if he's content with a team choice (even if it's the first legitimate roll) then I will say I'm sure there's at least a spy in that group.  I don't see the problem with this reasoning.

Are you a Freedom Fighter Dariush?



Not scum
Trustworthy Player.
and so far there are precious few. I sorta wish I wasn't the one who had to do this. All the pressure is sorta hard to deal with. I don't want to be responsible for the first failure.
See that's funny, because I for one like to call myself a Freedom Fighter.  I have this nagging feeling you're scum (beyond having no confidence we will succeed the first mission) and Dariush and Captain Ford are probable scum by association.  Proof being Dariush and Ford trying to get you to switch (this would be in the spies favor for the early round, you only need one spy and any more would just get the group suspected and less able to sabotage) and Captain Ford also says that they "know myself to be a rebel" just now.
Are you a Freedom Fighter Ford?
My opinion right now is for you to construct an entirely new team.
Baseless-wifom-baseless-wifom-baseless-wifom-baseless-wifom
Mind if I ask why you suspect I'm scum other than I'm the first player to pick a team?
Because you don't know the name of your role?  I would have accepted some other rebel-sounding name (it's possible GG wrote up multiple names to shake the town up), but with that strike-through and the fact I highly doubt GG called you a 'Trustworthy Player' makes me doubt you extremely.
So you're an idiot. This much is apparent. Claiming someone scum due to them not picking a name that sounds just right to you. Either scum or a moron. You're choice. I lean towards both myself. It is equally likely, if you'll indulge me, that I simply did not think the actual question you were asking was "What was the flavor you got in your role PM?" My apologies for not seeing this.
Sorry for being dumb, but are you going to claim you're a Freedom Fighter or not?

Toonyman:
Are you a Freedom Fighter Ford?
ಠ_ಠ
Yes, I am.
Okay answer.  (though you're damning Nerjin even more)
How? Mind if I ask what your logic is for this?
If Ford says he's a Freedom Figher and you don't, what would that entail?

I have this nagging feeling you're scum (beyond having no confidence we will succeed the first mission) and Dariush and Captain Ford are probable scum by association. Proof being Dariush and Ford trying to get you to switch (this would be in the spies favor for the early round, you only need one spy and any more would just get the group suspected and less able to sabotage)
My first problem with this is that you think Nerjin is dumb enough to include 3/4 of his team on his first proposal for the first mission.
It's possible or even likely.
I won't deny it. I'm trying to put every possible member of my team on the first mission. After all Rebels need rebels on the team to win.
Huh, I think you read that statement incorrectly.  Your first and second sentence implies you're a spy but the third states you're a rebel.

Can I just tell GG No. in the thread?  NO.  I don't think I will ever accept a team Nerjin constructs.
With your intelligence I'm not all that offended.
Hey hey, I think I've called you dumb at worse and it's just game talk.  Of course I'm not going to accept a team you make if I think you're a spy!

Decrement the number in the link URL by 1. (3917841->3917840->3917839 and so on) Go on a journey of pathetic failure to do a basic 1d10 roll.
On the other hand, I see that the results Nerjin gave are indeed the first ones rolled. While that doesn't make him 100% town in my eyes, it sure helps.
Way to go, the scum got lucky.  I'm sure at least one of those three players is a spy.
Well I'll ask you this question then, what's your team set up? Please, tell me truly I implore, who exactly do you trust enough to send on the mission? Try being less of an arrogant ass and try to contribute more than just "This guy is scum. Nothing he says is right." Why do you claim any of the players on my set-up is scum? Please, I'd like to hear your views on the team members more than the organizer.
ToonyMan - I didn't like self-nominating in my first post but after back-and-forthing with Ford I did come to the conclusion that it's best at least for the early game because if it's me I know I'm town and if it's someone else that just turns into a 50/50 flip (4 scum 4 town) that wouldn't change much even if they didn't self-nominate.  This doesn't take into account player behavior during the game, but I can not fault you for nominating yourself at the start, purely based on that.
The other two would be mainly a procession of elimination but also the two people I could likely trust the most.  (Ford would have been a possible choice as well if it wasn't this game)
Toaster and Leafsnail have both made decent starting posts and decent mid-day posts.  Toaster is on the team list that Nerjin RNG'd but I would place more money on Deathsword and Tiruin for spy right now.



Hi everyone I'm replacing in. Though I probably won't be active for a few days.
We still will need Tiruin to show up for the next team organization...

PPE:
Something I noticed.
Way to go, the scum got lucky.  I'm sure at least one of those three players is a spy.
You could say this and you would be right 5/6 of the time.
Am I right ZU?

6101
Not scum
Trustworthy Player.
and so far there are precious few. I sorta wish I wasn't the one who had to do this. All the pressure is sorta hard to deal with. I don't want to be responsible for the first failure.
See that's funny, because I for one like to call myself a Freedom Fighter.  I have this nagging feeling you're scum (beyond having no confidence we will succeed the first mission) and Dariush and Captain Ford are probable scum by association.  Proof being Dariush and Ford trying to get you to switch (this would be in the spies favor for the early round, you only need one spy and any more would just get the group suspected and less able to sabotage) and Captain Ford also says that they "know myself to be a rebel" just now.
Are you a Freedom Fighter Ford?
My opinion right now is for you to construct an entirely new team.
Baseless-wifom-baseless-wifom-baseless-wifom-baseless-wifom
Mind if I ask why you suspect I'm scum other than I'm the first player to pick a team?
Because you don't know the name of your role?  I would have accepted some other rebel-sounding name (it's possible GG wrote up multiple names to shake the town up), but with that strike-through and the fact I highly doubt GG called you a 'Trustworthy Player' makes me doubt you extremely.



Toonyman:
Are you a Freedom Fighter Ford?
ಠ_ಠ
Yes, I am.
Okay answer.  (though you're damning Nerjin even more)

I have this nagging feeling you're scum (beyond having no confidence we will succeed the first mission) and Dariush and Captain Ford are probable scum by association. Proof being Dariush and Ford trying to get you to switch (this would be in the spies favor for the early round, you only need one spy and any more would just get the group suspected and less able to sabotage)
My first problem with this is that you think Nerjin is dumb enough to include 3/4 of his team on his first proposal for the first mission.
It's possible or even likely.

My second problem with this is that you are assuming that if there was more than one spy on a mission, that they would all sabotage.
No they shouldn't need to, it's a strategy really, since one spy is likely to be in the first mission anyway.

My third problem with this is that you're making the incredibly dumb assumption that the spies would include more than one spy on the first mission, and then sabotage it. If the spies were going to throw one of the missions to the rebels to try to gain credit, it would be the first one.
No no no no, the spies would want to win as fast as possible.  Throwing it to the rebels is not right.  They just need three wins, if they can get the first (especially with multiple spies in the first mission to cause confusion) it's a more clear victory for them.

Also I need to remind you that your first problem is still in the works, spies can't communicate after the game starts.  While it's true they would know it's Nerjin's first to organize it's possible this was all set-up and you're trying to wiggle your way out of my statements.  The fact Nerjin has no confidence in his team choice (and even went so far as a random pick) makes this even better.

My opinion right now is for you to construct an entirely new team.
That is an incredible amount of paranoia right there.
Is that wrong?



Can I just tell GG No. in the thread?  NO.  I don't think I will ever accept a team Nerjin constructs.

Decrement the number in the link URL by 1. (3917841->3917840->3917839 and so on) Go on a journey of pathetic failure to do a basic 1d10 roll.
On the other hand, I see that the results Nerjin gave are indeed the first ones rolled. While that doesn't make him 100% town in my eyes, it sure helps.
Way to go, the scum got lucky.  I'm sure at least one of those three players is a spy.

6102
Not scum
Trustworthy Player.
and so far there are precious few. I sorta wish I wasn't the one who had to do this. All the pressure is sorta hard to deal with. I don't want to be responsible for the first failure.
See that's funny, because I for one like to call myself a Freedom Fighter.  I have this nagging feeling you're scum (beyond having no confidence we will succeed the first mission) and Dariush and Captain Ford are probable scum by association.  Proof being Dariush and Ford trying to get you to switch (this would be in the spies favor for the early round, you only need one spy and any more would just get the group suspected and less able to sabotage) and Captain Ford also says that they "know myself to be a rebel" just now.

Are you a Freedom Fighter Ford?

My opinion right now is for you to construct an entirely new team.

6103
@Nerjin:
If you had to describe a rebel in two words how would you say it?

6104
I wouldn't say it's a "WINNING STRATEGY" but it should help us more than hurt.  I mean, if the spies can get two wins in the early games then they've pretty much guaranteed victory (they could probably get the team organization to fail until it falls onto a spy, in which case it's instant-win, they could be as obvious as possible). I change my mind.

These first three rounds are really really important to get the lead on.

Point A1 assumes that organizers can pick themselves, and A2 and B1 assume they can't.
Whoopsie.  Rephrase A1 as "They won't be able to nominate themselves and at the very least won't be able to guarantee the early mission sabotages.  I got my syntax reversed.

I think I see what you're saying though, going over it.

I'm still inclined to think that it benefits spies more than rebels, especially in the early game. I'm not sure if there would be any long-term benefit to it or if it would be worth the price.
Yeah you're probably right for the early game actually at the very least.  We're more likely to roll a town organizer which would make the chance of picking a spy less if they have to nominate themselves and not otherwise.  I shouldn't try to work out a logic while posting it, it gets all muddled.

I'm okay with Nerjin nominating himself.  He's just putting more scrutiny on himself and if he's town it does look to be the right thing to do.

6105
Let me explain that a bit more:

A.  The team organizer is a Spy,
     1.  They can nominate themselves and at the very least guarantee the early mission sabotages.
     2.  In the later game missions that require two spies in the mission, they will have to blatantly pick more of their team.
B.  The team organizer is a Freedom Fighter.
     1.  They aren't able to nominate themselves, which does raise the chances of getting a spy in the mission, however there's a pretty good chance they picked a spy already.
     2.  Also the chances of the team organizer being a spy is almost 50/50 and that would cause more harm, you can not trust a spy.

After this first mission we're going to have to do a lot of team management stuff, everybody should be participating.

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