Bay 12 Games Forum

This was my third or fourth attempt at a Dwarf Fortress... Never finished it because the goblins wiped me out using a hole I had made to increase efficiency, clients were updated and I never kept the files to reclaim.

I used a common area size (10x10 areas, 3 wide halls, pillared and stair-cased hallway intersections) and divided each area up into sub rooms depending on the usage.  It was never completed, lay in ruins in a virtual world and will never be revived.  (Mainly because DF lacked a mass build feature.)

http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-2212-oiledsqueezed  (level 15, zoom 2.5 seems to be a good overview...) I wish I had known about 3Dwarf when I started.  I would have loved to see that.

That was eventually put aside for a very elaborate layout (inspired by a Star Wars scene in the Death Star) that suffered a similar fate:  http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/3226/moistpaged18region11055hk5.png

Quote from: Andir on August 01, 2008, 01:57:24 pm

Quote from: Davion on August 01, 2008, 01:45:26 pm

That has been proven with many game communities where the developer frowns on certain modding practices, and the modding practices don't stop they just go on in secret until it's safe to come out.

Sure, but usually these "secret" projects you talk about are not used by a great number of people.  If someone created a hack interface that offers better views, more information and more intuitive control, you better believe that it will get more traction being on a official forum.

I disagree highly. I guess it depends on your definition of "modifying" a game, but NoCD cracks, certain memory editing, etc. have been around forever, and I'd say there are millions of people who have used them. Progress will always push forward, regardless of the wants of the developers. I agree entirely with Davion's statement.

Cracks are quite a bit different than a mod to a game.  Sorry, but that's a poor... poor example.  And I'd argue that the recent crap with developers trying to prevent these kinds of hacks has actually encouraged normal people to seek out the hacks in order to alleviate the headaches caused by the developer's anti-piracy measures (long keys, constantly swapping CDs, self-infecting PCs with rootkits, etc.)

I point to any MMO Emulator project as an example.  They exist.  They allow people to use the interface written for the MMO and yet they don't draw millions of people away from the MMO.  And how prolific do you actually thing WoW Glider is?  I'd argue that it's likely a very select few people that actually run it, but it's influence is greater than most other hacks simply because of it's nature.

Quote from: Omega2 on August 01, 2008, 10:37:13 am

What draws the line between "good" hacking and "bad" hacking in DF?

In principle this is something that should be discussed at some point, but I think for now it might be sufficient to wait what happens, i.e. what the hackers actually come up with, and how much of that will become obsolete anyway as Toady improves the interface on his own (see the prospector), or whether Toady at some points calls out "that's enough hacking!". So maybe this issue resolves itself and making it an official issue just complicates things.

Actually, right now would be a damn good time to do it as I have the memory location for the cursor location in the map, view port boundaries, and other information that I can use to scrape and display info in an alternative manner.  I can manipulate the cursor to whatever location I want to see on the map at the click of a button, the viewpoint changes instantly.  If I wanted to, I could make a template program to automatically designate constructions or digging locations right now.  I was thinking about taking this one more step.  I would extracting the map data surrounding the cursor using the memory locations from 3Dwarf and using some of that source to provide me a 3D "window" of the current cursor location and surrounding area.  With the data collection going on in the 3Dwarf arena concerning tile data, and all that, the 3Dwarf "hack" is getting closer to what I envision and maybe I just inject some code to their base to do real time updates that I want.

There wouldn't be any key input and it would simply be an alternative view (though stuffing keys is entirely possible)... but it's definitely getting into that gray area everyone seems to be concerned with.  The question I ask myself is whether I should continue my tests or what I should do next.  My method is obviously not the most ideal, but I want to see my surrounding better and this is the only solution I have right now.

This is in no way a threat, (for those of you thinking...) but I tire of the interface and in order to keep playing I'm willing to go through this myself.  Of course, if/when I get done I'm not going to keep it to myself.

Why don't I create my own DF then?  It boils down to world generation.  I can make games, interfaces, and all that.  Where I lack talent is developing and generating content, art and assets.  Maybe I just extract DF worlds and make my own game using the maps.  I'm not sure what course I plan on going right now.  The above interface hack was my first test.

I just got finished messing around with Google Code and I came across a library (as well as some other things) that is for rendering, as they put it, "code page 437" or DOS ASCII graphics. Source is written in C and uses SDL. Oh and it actually makes a reference and gives a link to Dwarf Fortress.

http://code.google.com/p/libfake437/

Here's another program that's actually geared specifically for Dwarf Fortress. Might have missed it, but I haven't seen a link to this on the forums yet. Then again I haven't actually searched for it either.

http://code.google.com/p/dwarvis/

From my understanding, dwarvis is 3Dwarf.

Before the note feature I color coded my levers. Red (hematite) for the magma dropping goblin incineration machine, yellow (orthoclase) to raise the golden drawbridges, blue (microline) for the waterworks to refill my reservoir, etc. It worked out alright. Plenty of colored stone out there to make different lever colors.

I used to just draw out letters with designate-dig in the rocks nearby to signify what each lever was.  As long as you don't connect the dig designated squares with the rest of the map, they stay there as a temporary note that's quickly identifiable.

Quote from: Blacken on July 31, 2008, 12:45:07 pm

Quote

Also, if you read the original post, you will have noticed that I am suggesting the open-source model for the interface only. Toady wants to protect his game logic and I understand that. But even a messy open-source model would be perfect for the interface, so that many different ones crop up: who cares if there are 100 different ones, if at least 5 are excellent.

At which point it becomes considerably simpler to build a replacement open-source engine. Whoops, there goes Toady's DF.

I seriously doubt the lack of a fully-featured 3rd party GUI is holding anyone back from creating a DF replacement engine.   

Agreed.  I've thought to myself many.. many times how to do a fortress like game since I really don't care about the history, adventure mode, or some of the other things.

I could have gone on about how I think that the world should be a server, the interfaces should be separated into adventure and build interfaces and all kinds of other fun stuff, but that's neither here nor there.

The idea that somehow the separation of the interface is keeping people from making their own DF clones is ridiculous.

I updated my little viewer to read maps from the DFMA. This is Charmglen, from Sappho.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Still working on the interface to try and make it more intuitive... I'll happily post the code if anyone wants to have a look-see.

Please... I'm curious how you're loading/warping the tiles to make it look like that.  There's a kind of "Mode 7" feel to it.

My point was that we have a very balanced system here that WORKS. Toady gets to make his dream game and he enjoys doing it. He can work without someone lording over him and with no deadlines but those he sets for himself. His income relies completely on our player satisfaction. But since our donations are voluntary, he is not shackled in any way to our demands. This is a situation that some game developers would kill for!

I can play this game without feeling that I need to "get my moneys worth" out of my investment. If something bothers me I can learn to work around it while suggesting a fix to Toady with as much detail as I can. Eventually things do get fixed.

So just give it time. Obviously you have a lot of ideas on how to make the interface better, or you wouldn't be wanting to make one of your own. Put them out there and let it stew.

Yes, so... Toady makes the decisions.  He was presented a choice and a way to move forward that he can decide to follow or not.  The OP made a detailed and specific list of the potential they saw in the game, just like all the other requests for mass construction, et. al... and he/she was instantly attacked by the "members" of the community because it didn't match the direction THEY wanted in the game.

The idea was presented to Toady.  Some of us back the idea, offering some tips and guidance to hope that Toady decides to take on some of those ideas when he sits down to work out the logistics of the interface and appearance arc.

The problem arises though, when people suddenly declare that the OP is trying to "steal [the game] from him" and that they think "Toady should [not] worry about this" without providing any constructive feedback on the idea, how it could be better worked out or how they'd prefer Toady proceed.  They start off by classifying the OP as a "two bit programmer" for asking that any part of the client be opened up and outright declare that we should wait for an interface enhancement that even Toady apparently hasn't really decided the direction of yet.  Some people offered actual alternatives to anyone that wished to enhance their experience now, but others continued down the path of classifying anyone that gave half a thought about Open Sourcing anything as a wild animal "froth[ing] at the mouth".  I of course made an improper move by pointing out this thought and am myself attacked because I was spewing "disingenuous rhetorical tricks" and "stereotyping"??  Some even go so far as to say that "[open sourcing] drives your life's work into a path you never intended. You lose control of your own game, and have to search for a job again." and that "[we are]breathing down his neck all the time" by posting a thread on a forum...    Of course, we can't leave sleeping dogs lie, so it continues on for pages and pages on how we should "Wait until he [completes the interface], THEN complain about the result so he can improve it." instead of offering advice up front.

I could go on for another page or so, but nobody is clearly listening.  The naysayers continue to harass those looking to inspire or guide Toady.  Maybe even help him decide what could happen with the interface changes, what it could take to do it and that it's not the end of the world to experiment in different avenues.  To the naysayers, there is only one solution to the problems facing the game.  Ignore the problems and wait while berating anyone that would DARE try to assist, guide, teach, or suggest that Toady listen to them.