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Messages - Orange-of-Cthulhu

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241
DF Suggestions / Re: Kobold garbage collector caravan.
« on: October 04, 2020, 02:32:33 pm »

I don't use the bridge destruction bug


leave, fool! it's called ATOM-SMASHING and nothing else is acceptable

I like this idea quite a bit, and truthfully you could likely implement it in the current version with a few quick raw modifications. Making a new civ, calling the whatever you want for flavor (Trash-bolds, Collectors, Tinkers, etc). Though I'm not sure how you would adjust the trader pricing so that it would feel different from any other caravan.

Along these same lines, think about all that extra stone you have. If you don't atom smash or dump it in magam-chutes, then it is likely wasting space. It would be wonderful if some kind of lithovoric species would visit once in a blue moon, and assuming you gave them permission, swept through your fortress eating all excess stone, or hauling it off for later consumption.

I think the general idea of visitor-led trash reduction is great. Nice suggestion!

It could be a caravan with either nothing to offer or else they'd be selling some really weird junk for bargain prices. Their sales would more be like their gift to you because you are such a good guy giving them trash - and it would maybe be fun if new players treated them like a normal caravan and bought like broken bones and worn down goblin hats because they assumed it was a "serious" caravan offering stuff you needed.

I like throwing stone in there as well. Me personally, I like having the stones lying around, but I guess some players want rid of them. So I think the game should offer a fun dwarf fortressish way of achieving that, and lithivores seem great to me. Fun would ensue of they ate all the bitiminous coal you had not got around to processing yet. You should be able to tell them only to eat specific types of stones.

I'd love to have a friendly stone giant moping around eating rocks.

242
I like the standing orders idea a lot.

I had an absurd situation - I discovered I had assigned "bring 3 food" to a squad. and changed it to "don't bring food."

What I didn't know is that they dumped the food whereever they were standing when I changed the setting, meaning a lot of cheese got dumped in the barracks, without me knowing about it. The cheese then proceeds to rot, I guess haulers were busy - and since the military dwarves were set to train, non stop, in that barack, they were training for months in a stench of putrifying cheese.

It is very funny, but is very counter intuitive that nobody removes the cheese.

Same thing have happened with a dead llama lying for months in the midle of a tavern, with people drinking and socializing in the stench of a rotting llama. If you for some reason miss the purple cloud, maybe you're busy doing stuff 10 z levels down, it happens.

I just think gamewise, there should be some drawback to setting the standing order to "seek cover for rain". If there is zero drawback of doing it, then it's too much of a no brainer to turn it on. Maybe it is enough of a drawback that dwarves will randomly postpone outside jobs, so you get another problem which is getting enough trees cut at all, if it rains a lot on the map.

I think myself rain is too powerfull - it has made me embark in no-rain places like dry deserts and savannahs. Seems a bit odd to me that dwarves becomes a race that lives more in deserts, but it is only logical that a race that is hurt a lot by rain would seek to live in a desert.

243
DF Suggestions / Re: Kobold garbage collector caravan.
« on: September 23, 2020, 03:53:00 pm »
Shouldn't worn clothes be used for papermaking?

Would be cool also, but other items are also dumped. Dead goblins and body parts. Broken armor and weapons. Some plants produce useless seeds when eaten, I've got for instance 125 avocado pits in my stock right now, plus pits of other kind. I think cherries produces them as well.

244
DF Suggestions / Re: Kobold garbage collector caravan.
« on: September 23, 2020, 03:42:07 pm »
This whole kobold-focused thing isn't going to pan out because kobolds might not exist in any given world, or might be the most advanced civilisation.

Those xsocksx will actually degrade if placed in a garbage stockpile, so you don't need to sell them off anymore. More things should probably degrade if exposed to the elements, and ideally, saying "we need some way to reduce item counts because of the effect on FPS" becomes irrelevant with hbfs computers and coding.

I don't use the bridge destruction bug and I assume it will be fixed at some point.

I also personally dislike the trope you're referencing, though, so that may be colouring my opinion.

Well, I'm fine with kobold free worlds not having them. That's just that way that world is.

It could be other races doing it - I just think kobolds would fit well.

I don't understand why you think FPS isn't a problem, as people are using forts due to FPS and doing a lot of stuff to save on that. Loosing a fort to FPS is just very unsatisfactory, so off course you don't want to risk that and get nothing in return for taken that risk than a bunch of socks degrading in a garbage dump.

The caravan is used as garbage dump anyway - because it's needed.

I think it would be better just to build that feature into the game in a way so it fits better with roleplay.

It removes the illusion of trading with another civ when you dump all the fort's junk on them lol. It makes the caravan feel more like just a game mechanic.

245
DF Suggestions / Kobold garbage collector caravan.
« on: September 23, 2020, 10:12:25 am »
The inspiration of this is various garbage-centered characters in sci-fi comics (there's one in the movie Labyrinth as well), plus the desire to make one game tactiv more role-playish.

Problem I:

I usually use caravans as garbage dumps - it's the easiest way to get rid of the rubbish like xsockx that pile up, and because of FPS I want rid of items I don't need.

It feels weird to me that a trader caravan come, and they will always accept a "gift" of a lot of worn down clothes, invader junk you don't want and so on. I feel like, they should be inclined to say no to worthless things. And also that destroyed socks and thongs should have a trade value of 0. So, IT DETRACTS FROM ROLEPLAYING and feeling like you're in a coherent world that you hand over your garbage to traders.

Problem II:

Garbage disposal is, to me, a tedious problem. I like that the game has some of it, but I think that for the offered entertainment of it, it takes too much space in the game to get rid of random animal corpses outside and such.

Problem III:

Atom smashers are used in the game, because it simply is the best solution. It also detracts from roleplaying though.

I think therefore, it would be better to simply introduce a garbage collector function in the game that also worked as an element of a fantasy world.

So I'd say the kobolds have a strange cult centered around the collection and worship or garbage, which they collect from the entire world and then dump in a large pile that they dance around and worship, and the bigger their pile is, the happier their god is. So they send out caravans that don't sell anything, but just offers to the player to donate junk to it. And then you give them the stuff, and everybody's happy!

As they can't talk, the screens should just be like "A kobold caravan arrive. Their diplomat ask "UMUNUMUNUNU! NUGUMUNU!". Do you accept yes/no."

So there'd be a challenge there to figure out what they are asking, plus it would be fun to sometimes get incomprehensible messages.

They should get angry and leave if you offered them valuable items. "Like, are you trying to make us commit blasphemy or what???"

It would be very cool if they helped themselves with collecting the items, to relieve the workload and get it done faster.

I'd like if there was a downside to it - like the more you donated to them, the more likely it would be they'd send thieves or invadors, because they consider you rich. Other civs might also respond negatively in you helping the kobold garbage god cult.

I don't care that much if the garbage collecters are kobolds or another race, I just think kobolds seem to fit the role well.

I think most players would enjoy a lot some help with the garbage situation, and solve it in a more funny way than have to select d on a lot of individual items and them pull the atom smasher lever.

I think also down the road, when trade and economy gets "realistic", it probably can't work to make caravans take a large number of junk items. If you simulated the traders more realistically, they'd not want to devote their time to hauling broken socks around the continent.

It could be expanded to necromancers sending caravans to ask if you would donate the content of all your refuse piles and if they can collect the corpses lying around. Seems like a lot of opportunities for having that backfire, but many players would love somebody else cleaning up the battlefield and just truck the corpses away.

246
DF Suggestions / Move the standing orders to the mayor's screen.
« on: September 17, 2020, 07:26:15 am »
I would love the mayor and other nobles to have more of a function, and make the mayor more like the bookkeeper or the broker, which are nobles you really like because they are important.

I think it would be more organic if the standing orders, the o screen, were integrated with the mayor.

For starters, I'd like them to move to the mayor screen, and they should not all be available in the game all the time. They should be locked or unlocked according to the player's actions, the same as the bookkeeper unlocks you knowing what you have in the stocks.

Some of the options should not be accessible to the expedition leader, and only show up when you get a mayor.

This would reflect that as the fort grows bigger, also the administration changes. You start with 7 dwarfs doing more what they want, it's more of an egalitarian situation, and then it goes in the direction of becoming more centralized and more refined.

I imagine the mayor has to regularly hold meetings with dwarves, in order to keep all the options available. Say the option "gather refuse outside yes no", is locked, the mayor would unlock it by holding a meeting and then figure out how to organize the change. The options is then unlocked for say 2 years, after which it loks and the mayor needs to organize a new meeting to unlock it again.

It would make sense of the meeting was with say 2 other nobles or administrators.

EXTRA WISH: I think there should be more types of standing orders, in order to give the player more control and to personalize the behaviour of the dwarves.

For instance, you should be able to control the priority of praying jobs or going to the tavern jobs. Or you could increase the weight of leisure jobs, or decrease them if you want them to work till they bleed.

I think personally you should have the option so that with one click it sends a command "after dwarf has finished current job, the next job will be socilize in the tavern/ going to pray / haul an item" or whatever.

I'd like that mayor or king could issue an order that would function like big cleaning day or a new years celebration in the tavern.

Optional: Some of the orders could be moved to barons or kings. To me, it makes sense that the king makes the decision if people gather vermin or not. I'm not sure which orders should stay with the mayor and which ones should move to the king. The manager might also get some of them.

Optional: It also makes sense to me that the mayor or a noble would sometimes change the standing orders, bases on their preferences. "The king has ordered the dwarves to gather vermin". It would take some getting used to, but I think it would be fun. And you'd have the option of getting rid of the mayor/noble that issued standing orders you did not like.

Optional: The administrator level of the mayor should determine which standing orders he can even do. He should gain levens in administration, the same way the bookkeepet and broker gains levels. This creates the interesting possibility that your super administrator dies and some noob becomes mayor - meaning you will have to wait to be able to change the standing orders.

247
+1

There has been lots of talk about the mechanics of how different circumstances affect a dwarf's happiness. But a brilliant system of stress factors is irrelevant if it's opaque. The game already has a blizzard of traits and preferences that are presumably interconnected in fascinating ways---except that the players don't understand the connections. So lots of work has gone into a system that the players can't use or appreciate.

There are many other games out there that revolve around keeping vitual citizens happy, and each has to face the same sort of challenge. I hope that the Brothers Adams have looked at some of those games in designing the new stress system. Even though the mechanics of happiness vary widely from game to game, the task of summarizing and presenting the information is pretty much the same every time. Players always ask the same three questions:

1. Why did my person do that? Why did they choose Option A over Option B. In DF, this would mean displaying the numbers on each dwarf's needs for hunger, sleep, socialization, worship, etc. The Sims series, for example, has an elegant system of need bars that show whether your virtual person is likely to seek out food, entertainment, or the bathroom.

2. Why is this person happy or unhappy? DF has some of this now, but it's very indirect and confusing. And, as has already been discussed at great length, the underlying formulas are broken.

3. What's driving the happiness or unhappiness of my people overall? This is OP's point: If several citizens have the same source of unhappiness, then the game needs to combine that data and present it. Do the dwarves need better food, nicer bedrooms, fancier clothes, or more temples? Right now, the game tells you nothing.

To the many players out there: What management-type games do you think do a good job of presenting psychological information?

As to individual diagonosis. I haven't thought about that, but yes, you want to know why this specific dwarf has become haggard and drawn, or what he/she needs. I think yes, it would improve the game, because you'd have an idea of what to do.

I'd like to add that - I think it should be the job of the chief medical dwarf. So not only does the chief medical dwarf fix broken bones and such, he will also do preventive medicine and do something to adress the happiness of the dwarfs.

So when a dwarf becoms haggard or maybe changes a level in happiness, the medical dwarf gets a job "assess happiness", and he goes to the dwarf in question and asks him what the problem is. The quality of the report should depend on his skills. A low skilled dwarf just tells you "not enough recreation", a better diagnosis tells you "not enough prayer, because the unhappy dwarf is constantly mining."

I think it should also be possible to create a job for the medical job to check the happiness of specific dwarfs.

This is, if you want to be able to "protect" an important dwarf, say your legendary armorsmith and really go out on a limb for him. You should be able to get the information about what would make him happier - so you could do something in the game that would achieve this.

As it is, you really just fight in the dark. You give important dwarves a huge bedroom and try to not overwork them and cross fingers. But if you were told "he really needs to eat leopard brain", it would create gameplay.

If i HAD that information, I'd make it a thing to try to get some leopards and butcher them. And it would create a story about my raiding of the elves cauising a huge war - and the beginning of the war was that an armorsmith wanted to eat leopard.

I think the more information you have, the more projects the player would initiate. It would create mini-missions, like when a noble demands more armor stands. Except these missions would be much more variety, and the player would initiate them, which to me is much cooler than getting the (I guess) random noble demands.

248
In the mood debate, I in fact thing the system works fine.

BUT that it is simply so complex that many players have problems with figuring it out. And that makes people think it doesn't work, and pherhaps decreases their enjoyment of the game. I that the happyness boosters are too hidden for players. And when it is so hard to see fortwide effects in the game of the things you do regarding mental health, well probably many players do not do much about it.

I think what works is more the cumulative effect of many things - the easy ones as legendary dining room, blissfull bedsooms, interesting expensive statues in the hallways etc. The harder ones - giving dwarves enough free time to pray/read books. And then more tedious stuff like making (and managing!) 10 squads set to train wrestiling 1 or 2 months a year, as a sort of fitness club to generate happy thoughts of "relieved a sparring session."

I also think that the way it is set up dwarf happyness is an integral part of the game, as important as the booze supply and such. It's something you need to devote a lot of playing time to - But it is mostly overlooked by players.

My solutions to this is to intruduce in the games hints to the player as regarding to what can be done to make the dwarves happier.

Off course, indications exist already in the negative/positive thoughs in the dwarf info screen.

But it is information overload to most players to look through 150 dwarves and gauge whether it would work best to work hard on getting masterwork clothes and meals, or if you oppositely need to give the dwarves more time to chill so they can pray.

I think these hints need to be supplied with an "executive summary" for the player.

So - once in a while a system will read through all the happy/unhally thoughts in the fort should, check for "most common unhappy thought", "least common happy thought" and such and you'd get a message about it.

Messages

"lack of military training is a heavy burden on the hearts of the dwarves in the fort" (if martial happy thoughs were the most rare)

"no dwarves expressed happiness with the food"

"satisfaction with bedrooms is at an all-time low."

"The dwarves are restless because the have no time to pray."

Maybe also progress reports

"The satisfaction of bedrooms has greatly increased since the last report!"

This IMO would make it easier for players to fix the biggest "holes" in the defense against collective insanity. It would make it possible to ignore the hints as well, if you don't feel like making the dwarves happy. And at the very least, if you have been disregarding messages of unhappiness because of crappy bedrooms for years, you's feel ownership of the problem if suddenly they all went nuts.

I'd say the best place for these hints would be the mayors screen in the nobles screen - this would also make the mayor usefull. You'd like the mayor better, because you needed to go to his screen in order to check what it important to do to increase happiness. So he'd feel like he was usefull like the bookkeeper and the broker.

The messages should off course be extremely humorous and funny! And I prefer to have them inside the mayor's screen to you can choose to not look at them, if you don't care. They should not pop up in the screen so you needed to click return to get rid of it and keep the game moving on.

249
For the kill.

It is counter intuitive to me and RP-breaking that you cannot kill them simply by not just stabbing them in the cage through the bars.

Instead yeah, you can treat the cage as an item and them destroy the item as any other item. You can crush a cage with a prisoner under a drawbridge same as you can a sock.

To me, it is somewhat tedious to have to process all the cages manually.

I would love to just select the cage with q and choose maybe e for "execute prisoner", and that's it. It should include removing the corpse from the cage and stripping it naked, so everything is ready to be hauled.

Then the players who want to do the elaborate stuff with dumping them from high places or to beast dens could do that, or do other stuff with them, and players that just want it done could do it the easy way.

And sure, it should not work with unkillable stuff.

It could be set so the "execute" command makes the executioner get a perfect spear stab to the brain, but if that is not enough to kill the prisoner, nothing would happen and you'd get a message like "Urist cancels execute caged prisoner: Impossible."

I like your suggestion that they can refuse to be set free. "I shall never give up the fight for justice! Your offer means nothing to me!"

The slavery to me should work like a slave has hauling turned on, and they just haul and haul and are not allowed to socialize or read books or any other fun stuff. Like you should be able to give them "slavish" jobs.

Well it could work in a lot of ways, but my main idea would be that they became like citizens, only with reduced job possibilities plus "rights".

But Ok it matters not, if dwarves don't use slaves.

250
When you cage invaders, they just become an item like any other. And you get rid of them by either letting them out and killing them or destroying the cage.

To me, it gets tedious to "process" a lot of cages manually, plus it feels historically incorrect. It feels weird to have to destroy the entire cage in order to get rid of a prisoner inside it.

So I'd like more options:

1: Execute.

The cage should have an option to execute prisoner, so with just one click he gets stabbed through the cage and stripped of his stuff. I guess the chief of the guard does the executing.

2: Free.

Historically, prisoners were sometimes led free on a oath they would cease hostilities, or simply sold off. On this option, you ask the prisioner to swear to cease histilities in return for his freedom. If he accepts, the prisoner would get stripped naked, set free from the cage, and then walk straight of the map and home.

IDK if it an be implemented that they keep their oath, but you could for instance make it so that if freed prisoners reach their home site, there is a % chance that they stop attacking you for five years. It's fine by me if they show up again, it would motivate you even more to kill them.

There is a lot of possibilities here, ransoms were a big deal. You could go overboard and have a messenger go and ask for some stuff in return for you freeing the prisioners. Or some emissary could show up and give you stuff in return for freeing the prisoners.

But I would be happy with a very simply solution that just rids you of them.

All the old solutions would off course still be possible.

3: Slavery. I personally think it is too dark for the game, but if the developers feel like it, it would make sense to keep them as slaves or servants of nobles or something. IDK how it could work, but it would be neat to have some slaves from a former invasion.

251
That is nice, and thanks for the info.

I still think the info should be available everywhere.

252
DF Suggestions / Re: Crusades Against Necromancy
« on: August 21, 2020, 06:23:23 am »
I like it.

It could be modelled on the actual crusades, with several civs chipping it.

If a civ called a crusade, you'd get a messanger asking if you wish to participate in the crusade, and he'd demand warriors from you. There should be some benefit to it. Like the warriours got a title as "crusader" or something cool.

Then all the soldiers go to the defined meeting places, and when they are gathered they go on a raze mission to the target. If they survive, they return, and surely, many engravings will commemorate the crusade!

Alternatively, if you had a King he could call a crusade, and you'd send messengers around to ask for help.

(I see no problem why you cannot call crusades on any settlement you want to? Why only necromancers? Heck, you could yourself get attacked by a crusade.)

253
(In order of personal priority)

1: Increase the info on the library screen. ATM you can only see what books you have with the artefact screen, but copied books are hidden. We need a list of all the books in the libary, including the copies.

2: Expand the book list to a list that does look like it belongs to a real library. The list should include author, title, general topic.

There should be statistics, such as "number of times read" and "days belonging to fort." plus a list of readers (The old game SimCity2000 had random statistics on buildings, and there is nothing more enjoyable than that. I would love to know what the most popular book in my library is!) As well, I would want a list of readers, so I can see who read the most books. It would personalize the dwarves say if I could know that my fisherdwarf had read all the books about pulleys.

Books should be sorted by general topic (medicine, history, philosophy etc.). So you could really nerd around and go "whoa I only have 2 books on climate, I really have to raid some place with a lot of climate books!".

3: Add a noble, the Master Librarian.

The library lacks this guy in charge of it. The function should be modelled on Malachia in "The Name of the Rose" by Umberto Eco.

He'd decide which books got copied, as in he would order the scribes to copy this or that book, so his preferences would matter. (Pherhaps the forementioned book list would be acessible on his nobles screen.)

He'd issue demands like "new zinc bookshelf", for all the relevant library objects (3 chairs, chests, bags, writing materials, books, shelves, scrolls, codexes, quires). He'd sometimes forbid the export of parchment, quires, scrolls. He'd conduct meetings with scholars, scribes, other nobles, visiting scholars, resulting in happy or unhappy thoughts, depending on his personality.

He'd be in charge of the museum as well, and issue mandates for that as well. ("Bones should be displayed", "an object of brass should be displayed". etc.)

He'd double as doing a bit of work as a scribe and scholar. He should keep a few books closed to the public, because the information in them is just way too explosive for the general dwarf! (Urist has hidden "Can the Fortress Save the World" from the general public, as he deems it dangerous to read for unstudied people.")

He should have a tendency to get involved in the dark villanous plots that I do not know as I don't play that version yet, but is anything better than a Master Librarian found murdered in the library with a bloody page torn out of a mysterious book? I think not!

254
Reason: I had a werebeast attack that left a male -trained- giraffe badly injured.

I figured it would die anyway, so I wanted to butcher it. The problem was I had TWO male -trained- giraffes, and on the z-screen where you can butcher them I had no idea to tell which one of them was the injured one. The only option was to butcher both of them.

It feels counter-immersive, that you are not able to order "butcher the injured giraffe." It's like my butcher is blind, and cannot tell a werebeast-mangled giraffe from a healthy one :)

This could be fixed by added a v (view) option on the z-screen, so you had knowledge of which giraffe you ordered to be butchered. The k-screen gives you the info "he's right leg is mangled, his left leg is mangled etc.". You can also see it on the u-screen. It should be accessible from the z-screen as well.

Another info that should be accessible here is the relations of the animal.

I have some animal trainers that bonded with some giraffes they trained. I don't want to butcher the giraffes that bonded with my former animal trainer that now is the legendary armorer, in order to not damage his already fragile mental health. I want to butcher the giraffe that bonded with the unimportant or dead dork. But the bonding info is only accessible on the dorks relationships screen, but the animals just don't have one. So again, I have no way to tell which giraffe is who on the z-screen, where you can order them to be butchered.

And again, it is counter immersive that you don't know which specific giraffe you're butchering.

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