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Messages - Silverionmox

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616
DF Suggestions / Re: Hunger, sleep, etc.: differentiate between military and civilian time for combat
« on: August 18, 2010, 12:14:18 pm »
Be my guest if you want to micromanage the waking up of every dwarf... Besides, you don't gain anything: stay in siege mode and you'll wait many times longer for economic stuff to get don, re-enter civilian mode and they will go right back to bed...

The inopportune bed & breakfast times are one thing. For that problem there is not really much room to improve that: one could suppress their hunger feelings etc, but that will lead to soldiers dying from starvation at inopportune times instead of going away to eat. That's not an improvement. You could artificially reduce the food needs of active soldiers, but that is something that will lead to exploits (food running out? no problem, draft half your fortress until the caravan comes! they'll eat less).

In addition, it solves the situation that just two squads doing combat takes a whole season to resolve. Toady has referred elsewhere that sending out an army off-map in the future would be problematic, since it would take a month for the squad to reach the edge of the map. Dilating time for military operations completely solves that.

So the particular problem that made me consider this solution can be fudged by other means, but the time dilation solves other problems as well. Without it, we'll always be torn between the two most interesting aspects of the game (economy & military) that both require a different timescale to be enjoyed to their maximum. For example, siege mode could feature night and day cycles - it's slow enough for that - so we can have raid under the cover of darkness etc. Night and day is completely irrelevant for the economy however, so without combat going on it only makes sense to skip it in economy mode.

617
DF Suggestions / Re: Hunger, sleep, etc.: differentiate between military and civilian time for combat
« on: August 18, 2010, 10:27:10 am »
Long-term sieges are characterized by an absence of actual combat and a lot of sitting and waiting (for reinforcements, for the other guys to give up, for hunger and disease to take their toll), and will thus revert to civilian mode.

Productivity is also a matter of quantity produced per job. Admittedly, dwarves are now spending their time walking around: but the reason that that happens is that production is abstracted to cram it in the year without making the dwarves walk very fast and be still in their workshops for most of the time.

- Ambushes switch to siege mode ASA the first hit/shot/warning cry happens. Civilians that are fleeing are into combat mode as well.
- The type of enemy doesn't matter: it's whether dwarves are in combat/fleeing that matters.
- Trapped Goblin: ah, but you don't improve efficiency: production and consumption on a per year basis remain the same; they're just stretched out more because in siege mode the dwarf time passes more slowly - so your stonecrafter will still produce 1 instrument each week, but the weeks will now pass slowly, allowing dwarves to move and combat more.
- Stragglers: there might be a lone goblin you can't reach. You should always be able to end (or start) siege mode voluntarily; even if you do it in the middle of combat, it will switch right back on. It should depend on actual combat being fought, not on the presence of enemies.
Another option to solve that is to mark enemies as non-threatening: if they don't actually hit your dwarves, they won't trigger fleeing reactions or attacks. That would also be useful for pitted animals or cave animals down below in a lower cavern (as an aside, their should be creatures that make all but the braves dwarves flee, even if they're tamed :) ).

It would be announced the first time to the player as follows:

**You are now entering siege mode.** Siege mode slows down the time of your economy (production and consumption of your dwarves) because there is combat going on. You can now concentrate on the military, who operate on their normal speed. You will switch back to civilian mode automatically when combat has ceased for a day, or by pressing [key]. More info, press <Help key>.

618
DF Suggestions / Re: Hunger, sleep, etc.: differentiate between military and civilian time for combat
« on: August 18, 2010, 08:28:38 am »
It's not only a matter of lax dwarves. The problem is that dwarves even can't push themselves much further without risking to die from hunger or exhaustion. That problem is caused by the artificial timing of their bodily needs. On one hand, there is the calendar; on the other hand, there is the biorhythm of the dwarves (the pace with which they get hungry). Those two are not synchronized. That's a problem with making a sim game, since doing it real-time is obviously not an option, and speeding it up while retaining the normal number of dinners/month isn't either.

For civilians, that can easily be abstracted by 1. speeding up all actions (eg. traversing the map takes a minute, although it represents a km) and where that doesn't suffice to cram all actions in a year, 2. to enhance productivity (eg. a dwarf requires only one workshop session to make stuff that would require twelve sessions when not abstracted).

For the military, abstracting combat like that is not possible because it does matter where dwarves and their enemies are at a given point in time. For civilians, everything that matters is that they have a cycle of sleep-work-eat-leisure-etc. and have produced x stuff at the end of the year.

So civil life and combat have distinct timing needs. Now we're doing everything in civilian mode, and that has undesirable effects: dealing with a goblin squad takes an entire season, tactics that could easily be executed before noon IRL are interrupted because half the squad is gone for lunch and a nap. Doing everything on a pace adapted to military operations would make any economic endeavour unenjoyable.

The best solution is IMO to switch the game to siege/adventure mode (eg. 2 dwarf days per real hour) when combat takes place. That mode would also have night and day/tidal cycles, while normal civilian mode (eg. a dwarf year per real hour) would just have daylight and a stable average coastline. Military mode would for example start when a squad of goblins arrives on Granite, 23rd and stop on Granite, 25th when they are dealt with.

619
DF Suggestions / Re: Hunger, sleep, etc.: differentiate between military and civilian time for combat
« on: August 17, 2010, 06:02:04 am »
That would be a reasonable approximation for the adrenalin rush. I still find putting the fort in slow motion while the fighters fight a more attractive solution :) (and less abusable).

Another big problem is that goblins don't need to eat or sleep at all. That makes the imbalance worse.

Sieges over multiple days should be possible of course, and that implies that soldiers should sleep sometimes. The problem now is that you don't have any idea when and how long they will sleep. An indicator for that would be good. In any case, they should be more flexible. Any army sets out guards for the night, and you can be sure that those don't always get to sleep the day before their duty.

620
DF Suggestions / Re: Hunger, sleep, etc.: differentiate between military and civilian time for combat
« on: August 16, 2010, 05:35:19 pm »
That's one option, I actually do prefer the other one. Fudging their need to sleep etc. strains the suspension of disbelief (different rules for essentially the same dwarves) and is open to abuse.

I'd rather have civilians life slow down while the fighting happens. That way, dwarves can simply get hungry once per 2 months (or whatever x per unit of dwarf time); it's just that time slows down. In a sense, combat should take place in adventure mode. Civilian life can then be sped up and somewhat abstracted for normal gameplay (which is as it is now).

This has the additional advantage that you're not bothered by economic messages and work while fighting.

621
DF Suggestions / Re: Mechanical problem
« on: August 16, 2010, 09:31:37 am »
Maintenance requirements would be logical, but be warned that dwarves waste a lot of time by moving around. It could mean that you need to have ten mechanics that are on the move (and that means pathfinding over long distances) nine months out of twelve just to keep your basic defensive traps sharp.

622
DF Suggestions / Hunger, sleep, etc.: differentiate between military and civilian time for combat
« on: August 16, 2010, 09:24:11 am »
Recently I had a goblin invasion, and they reached the upper part of the fortress. I had everybody burrowed up down below, so no problem. I activated the squads and sent them upstairs. What happened? As soon as they arrived, they went to bed.

That's obviously not what a soldier is supposed to do. The problem is that civilian and military dwarves get hungry, sleepy etc. at the same rate. For civilians that can be balanced out in any way, because they can reach the dormitory, dining hall etc. and over the year they achieve a reasonable cycle of working, sleeping etc.

However, the military can't average their schedule out like civilians, because as opposed to quartzite rocks the enemy doesn't wait until they're ready to hammer them in shape.

Possible solutions:

- Suspend bodily needs for soldiers on duty. pro: simple. contra: abusable; why do they have backpacks etc. then at all?

- Let creatures in combat act faster. Or, effectively, make civilians slow down a hundred times. (Civilians that are attacked are in combat, naturally, to prevent a single goblin to blitz through your fortress.) pro: combat can take place in a fitting time; the bodily needs' timers can run as normal without disrupting combat. contra: civilian life slows down when in combat

I don't think the last solution causes insurmountable problems. There can be a situation with the occasional straggler that you can't reach but is not dangerous to you for some reason, so there should be a key to return to civilian time. It will automatically switch back to military time (or siege time/mode, as it probably will be called) when the creature succeeds in attacking again, anyway.

(This would also solve the future problem of sending out dwarves to the outside world, and it takes them a month to reach the edge of the map.)

623
DF Suggestions / Re: Elk Bird
« on: August 11, 2010, 01:48:01 pm »
Quote
FANTASY! Why do the creatures have to be realistic
That's the old realism in fantasy paradox. Answer: realism is not important, verisimilitude is. Explained: the world has to make sense, in order to have the stories make sense. That does not mean realistic in the sense of emulating reality, but it does imply realism in the sense of having a universe with consistent rules. If stuff just happens randomly, your achievements are devalued; after all, if all kinds of things happen randomly, why bother striving to achieve something?

624
DF Suggestions / Re: Elk Bird
« on: August 07, 2010, 05:37:01 pm »
That reminds me, we don't have proper tides aboveground either.

625
DF Suggestions / Re: Elk Bird
« on: August 07, 2010, 01:51:26 pm »
Quote from: Aspgren on August 06, 2010, 05:06:47 pm
Seasonal horns?

... I wasn't aware that the underground HAD seasons.
Good point. The rains that fall and percolate through the layers will give some kind of rhythm as well as the changing flow of the rivers. In addition there can be rhythm in the intensity of magma flows. Finally, creatures tend to develop rhythmically. If the foundational elements of the food chain have a rhythm, so will everything else. For example certain cicadae only burst forth once every x years.

626
DF Suggestions / Re: Elk Bird
« on: August 06, 2010, 12:03:48 pm »
Making them seasonal like actual elk antlers is the simplest solution. Makes it possible to harvest them without butchery too, if so inclined. That should make antlers harvested in that way carry the Elven Seal of Approval for trade.

For the other issues, it's a logical necessity that the elk bird has a rather short, broad, strong neck... to support it's horns. Problem solved.

627
DF Suggestions / Re: Roads increasing speed of creatures
« on: August 04, 2010, 03:55:50 pm »
In addition, wheeled vehicles are flat space only.

628
DF Suggestions / Re: Technological progress?
« on: August 04, 2010, 03:40:31 pm »
As long as the "tech level" is realized by something concrete (like manuals in libraries, or existing infrastructure) it could have a place in the game. Abstract number accumulation is not where this game is going.

629
DF Suggestions / Re: Technological progress?
« on: August 04, 2010, 01:32:49 pm »
I think DF is intended to be about development of personality rather than technology. It's subtitle is "stories of diligence and greed" or a variation thereof, i.e. a positive and a negative personality trait. The conflict between those is what will make the stories, will make the personalities, and will make the game.

630
DF Suggestions / Re: Give dwarfs some dignity and stop the lagging.
« on: August 02, 2010, 12:29:02 pm »
It's a matter of economy: what is the distinction between a dwarf's private items and the common items? How do they interact? The fortress leadership ought to be able to claim stuff by eminent domain, at an obvious cost in unhappiness, or if an appropriate law is in force, material compensation.

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