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Messages - Neonivek

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General Discussion / Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« on: July 19, 2017, 01:55:38 pm »
WOW! Did Mystery of the Druids end... incredibly stupidly.

It might win dumbest game ever made.

Yet it definitely wins worst protagonist EVER! Hands down!

O_O was my face for the entire last section.

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General Discussion / Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« on: July 19, 2017, 01:10:13 pm »
Ignoring that advantages can also be disadvantages and disadvantages can also be advantages.

What I mean is: What are you changing if both groups contain the same privilege?

Edit: An example of an advantage that is also a disadvantage would be Diplomatic Immunity. Having it also means you MUST act in accordance with being a diplomat and often means you earned it in some capacity. Being a diplomat, a requirement for diplomatic immunity, isn't anything anyone but diplomats do.

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General Discussion / Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« on: July 19, 2017, 12:54:26 pm »
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Actually one of the reason I'm not that fond of the term privilege, because it seems to imply that the goal is to bring the privileged groups down rather than brings the other one up, but that's the term that stuck so well, gotta roll with it.

One of the same reasons I don't like it. Yet as it keeps being used the unfortunate implications keep seeping in.

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Maybe it's because I'm French-speaking, so for me privileges means stuff like the privilege of the nobility, but for me those three things are part of the definition of privileges. Privileges are advantages that you get from belonging to a given group but didn't do anything to deserve

This isn't your fault.

Yet one must beg the question: Is that advantage real? Universal to that group?

For nobility it is easy to see what privileges they have access to because they are codified.

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Well, 1) A privilege is by its definition positive. Now, if membership of a group gives you some advantage but also expose you to discrimination  what does that change? Both should be challenged.

Wasn't the entire basis of Checking your Privilege was that privilege itself prevents you from understanding those without it? Sounds like by that definition a privilege IS a disadvantage as well.

Also I am not talking about entire groups I am talking about singular "privileges"

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If it is shared by other groups too, then it just mean that this other groups should also loose the same privileges.

What if that group IS the "Disadvantaged" group?

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General Discussion / Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« on: July 19, 2017, 12:14:14 pm »
Quote from: Sheb on July 19, 2017, 12:03:33 pm
Just checking, but you're still arguing in good faith and not being purposefully obtuse, right? Or maybe it's just your style of writing I have trouble understanding.

Horrible style of writing. I write the way I think without enough filtering. Let me just massage this a bit

Quote from: Neonivek on July 19, 2017, 11:24:30 am
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The underlying system that means that some group have privileges over other should be dismantled

I am smart, I have a privilege over dumb people. I should have my intelligence dismantled.

That is why that assumption doesn't work wholesale.

IN FACT IT HAS A DOUBLE ASSUMPTION!

I am smart, therefor I am the only person or group who is smart.

WAIT! Triple assumption

I am smart, therefor I am purely advantaged over people who are dumb.

It isn't like smart people have higher rates of depression than people who are dumb and thus we cannot look at it as purely advantage or disadvantage.

WAIT!!! FOURTH assumption

They are dumb, therefor they are purely disadvantaged over people who are smart.

The requirement for someone to do something about their privilege requires quite a few assumptions:
-1) That it is a privilege that can be changed, should be changed, and is just to be changed
-2) That the privilege is uniquely theirs and isn't shared or experienced by anyone else
-3) That the privilege is entirely positive without any sort of drawbacks or negatives that might make it a mixed bad and cannot be thought of as purely putting one over someone else.
-4) That the opposite, the "disadvantage" is purely negative and that there are no positives or perks associated with it.
-5) (I am adding this), that the Privilege is theirs to deal with and is something they affect. A Child isn't responsible for their protected status.

A example that is often cited, for example, is that women feel intense anxiety walking around at night. This is not only an anxiety shared by men, but statistically men have more to fear. This is to say nothing of the fact that "Check your Privilege" focuses on men exclusively for night anxiety as perpetrators, instead of arming women.

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General Discussion / Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« on: July 19, 2017, 11:24:30 am »
Ok let me rephrase it.

You are making an assumption based on the life experiences of all men and all women and deeming it is true in all situations.

So what privileges does a man have?

Not "Men" so you can point out that CEOs are mostly male (something that benefits only a fraction of a fraction of men... Men who are sociopaths)

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The underlying system that means that some group have privileges over other should be dismantled

I am smart, I have a privilege over dumb people. I should have my intelligence dismantled.

That is why that assumption doesn't work wholesale.

IN FACT IT HAS A DOUBLE ASSUMPTION!

I am smart, therefor I am the only person or group who is smart.

WAIT! Triple assumption

I am smart, therefor I am purely advantaged over people who are dumb.

It isn't like smart people have higher rates of depression than people who are dumb and thus we cannot look at it as purely advantage or disadvantage.

WAIT!!! FOURTH assumption

They are dumb, therefor they are purely disadvantaged over people who are smart.

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General Discussion / Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« on: July 19, 2017, 11:12:00 am »
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1) Well, mate, I'm sorry to break it to you, but if you're a man, it makes sense to assume that you don't suffer from everyday sexism the way a woman does

Now you just made an assumption based on the experiences of all women and all men. So you are talking for all women and men and are delegating out traits that will apply in all situations.

Goodness is checking your privilege just the overflowing font of equality in that: It is equally sexist to both genders.

But how about you list those Privileges that a MAN has? Not "Men", a Man.

I mean let me think of things I experienced: I've been objectified, I've been cat called, I've been sexually harassed, sexually assaulted, I've been denied consent, I am scared to go outside at night, I have to dress and act a certain way if I want to be taken seriously, things built for the majority do not suit my needs, the media doesn't represent me.

 
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How is the "Do something about it" misuse?

I have a chocolate bar, I should do something about it. I am homeless, but I am a man... I should do something about it.

The way it is positioned is hilarious! Because she says you aren't a bad person for being privileged, but goes on to essentially say that your privilege should be dealt with as if it is a disease or some mortal sin.

At BEST it could be that you should use your advantages to help others. Yet that isn't the way it is positioned, because it is an accusation.

---

Which I guess is the ultimate problem with "Check your Privilege" as you proven... it isn't an exercise it is an accusation, and assumption.

Perhaps it can't be used correctly period.

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General Discussion / Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« on: July 19, 2017, 10:46:20 am »
OHHH citation needed Sheb? Ok... This is fun!

How many sources DO you need here? I can find all the sources you need (though I assume it will never be enough)

No really. 36 Questions Women have for Men a good enough video?

"Why do men hate when you tell them to check their privilege? Just check it, AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT" (Which by the "Do something about it" is the immediate... misuse. Then again "Just check it" also assumes the conclusion as well.)

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Why can't you tell people that they should try to realize the ways in which their life can be privileged compared to others?

-1) Because you are making assumptions about their privilege based on superficial characteristics.
-2)You are making judgements based on the privilege to create a heigharchy (Dang spell check, I give up!) of validity and need. Hmm... A line of thinking where some people are better than others based on the color of their skin... hmm...
-3) You aren't asking someone to understand someone elses POV and through that lens understand what they truly have. You are asking someone to come to vague conclusions about their privilege based on vague notions that often cannot be defined, quantified, or don't even apply.

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General Discussion / Re: The Abusive Policing Thread: Beyond Brown, No Justice
« on: July 19, 2017, 10:32:25 am »
Quote from: Descan on July 18, 2017, 07:13:05 pm
I'm only going to say this once.

Police officers are not denied entry to [queer] parades.

The individual officer is completely allowed to come; just not in uniform or in his/her capacity as an officer, nor do they want the police precincts to participate with their own police-theme floats.

It's barring the *institution* from the parade, not the people. And it's not like police precincts are corporations, either :V

No just police officers who had ANY pride or value in their uniform.

Just police officers who want to work to fight against discrimination.

It isn't like this unwarranted demonization of the police is harmful, and it isn't like a lack of uniformed police officers in "Queer" Parades is causing a problem and is being called for by entities OUTSIDE the Queer community.

We aren't talking about a Ideological, commercial, or political entity. So YES it is against Police Officers "Yes, you can come to the parade. Yet you can't be noticeable as police"

In fact maybe the police SHOULD have their own float. That actually sounds like a great idea and it isn't like, say, Firemen haven't had their own float before.

And you know what? Maybe we should encourage police officers to come to these parades in uniform, actually get them involved in the community. Actually desensitize the police to this community as well as vise versa. Build bridges and hopefully allow people to come to understand one another.

OHH WAIT sorry! We can't because an ideological entity says no. In fact it has shut down the Pride Parade, sorry everyone but you know... it is important those Police Officers learn their lesson about being antagonistic towards people. (Man my local chapter is horrible)

---

Maybe I am projecting... The way it worked near me was

The Pride Parade wanted uniformed officers for many reasons but if you looked at it pessimistically, it provides a degree of protection and allows the parade to function.

A Ideological outside political entity wanted uniformed officers not to be allowed in the parade because they wanted to demonize uniformed officers and then proceeded to block the parade for their own political platform even after promising they wouldn't do so.

So maybe other Pride parades didn't actually want uniformed police officers and it was only locally where this ideological group was harassing people.

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General Discussion / Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« on: July 19, 2017, 10:22:44 am »
Quote from: Sheb on July 19, 2017, 04:17:13 am
Quote from: Neonivek on July 19, 2017, 02:47:07 am
Privilege is privilege. It is fluid, very specific, but doesn't necessarily impair empathy or understanding. Someone who has money hasn't always had money, and someone with no money doesn't necessarily have problems with money. Yet even within that there are shared common experiences. IF I took what you said at face value then explaining my injury would be pointless altogether regardless of what cult you created to help me.

That fluidity doesn't readily apply to race, gender, disability or lack of thereof, etc though.

Yes it does. Lets ignore the racism and sexism involved with this line of thinking and instead just go with someone in a Wheelchair.

One person who is in a Wheel Chair might not suffer the hindrances that another person does. They might not perpetually be confronted by the same limitations or the same benefits of being in a wheelchair. Ramps might be more available in one town, not available in others, people might be more helpful in one place, or it might not be in another, one person might be good at working their wheel hair, another might have weak arms. As well there are benefits to being in a wheelchair as well that not everyone in a wheelchair might have access to.

Privilege is only the same if everyone has the same experiences and same life.

You really should ask separated twins if their lives were exactly the same.

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Just because some people use it poorly doesn't mean the entire concept is flawed.

It is never used correctly. NEVER! You cannot tell someone to check their privilege without creating that flaw. This is because it can only be used correctly on yourself and not other people, but it is created to be used on others.

And some other stuff you posted but I just woke up...

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TIL children of gay men are tone deaf.

Nah. Men oscillate too and not all women oscillate (In fact there was a fad a while ago that told women not to oscillate or baby talk at all).

If there is an effect developmentally it would probably only be that they don't have perfect pitch... But only like what? 30% of people have perfect pitch?

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General Discussion / Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« on: July 19, 2017, 02:47:07 am »
Quote from: Kansa on July 19, 2017, 02:38:23 am
No you aren't but if you move on to people who actually listen instead of continuing to plead to the people who aren't even trying then you might get to the hospital. It's not about people being idiots it's about them not even trying to understand.

Privilege is a barrier in understanding, it's one you can overcome though. If you are actually trying I don't think you should be silenced, I don't think it's helpful in a conversation though to have people just deny it.

It would be like in this conversation instead of talking about what it means to both of us just me saying again and again no one misuses the word privilege and you are an idiot for saying so. That doesn't help at all and isn't going to lead to new understanding when I don't even listen to what you have to say.

Privilege is privilege. It is fluid, very specific, but doesn't necessarily impair empathy or understanding. Someone who has money hasn't always had money, and someone with no money doesn't necessarily have problems with money. Yet even within that there are shared common experiences. IF I took what you said at face value then explaining my injury would be pointless altogether regardless of what cult you created to help me.

Yet when you are suggesting is that outright "Denial" should be shut down. Which is set up to mean "Wholly denial" but actually means "Any contradiction" because any part of what someone says and what they mean can be contradicted.

This is what creates the ideological cult.

This "Conversation" is what it important. Don't contradict the "Conversation" it isn't helpful to do so. If you contradict the "Conversation" Then you are against it.

If your point is so important and so worthy of attention then why does this contradiction scare it?

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General Discussion / Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« on: July 19, 2017, 02:30:40 am »
Quote from: Kansa on July 19, 2017, 02:25:36 am
Maybe you just smeared blood on yourself though, maybe you are lying about the pain.

Like I said this is the situation where privilege is a problem, if you ask legitimate questions I don't think you should be silenced. If they deny you have a gunshot wound however they are never going to take you to a hospital no matter how much you plead to them

Except that even if "Only I" had a valid opinion, If everyone around me was an idiot and doesn't believe me I am not going to the hospital anyway.

As well they can still deny I have a gunshot wound and still take me to the hospital for emergency treatment.

Creating a mob mentality in order to ensure I am taken to the hospital isn't going to help anyone. To suggest privilege on its own is a barrier is not to understand what privilege is.

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They can offer good points but if they just repeat there is no global warming despite the evidence and say that we don't need a fix it's not really going to help the problem

Yes, unhelpful people are not helpful.

Yet that is a quality that they are not helpful or that they won't stop interjecting. It isn't a quality of them not believing in Global Warming.

A cultish attitude towards Global Warming doesn't help anyone and it genuinely stops criticisms that help aim it correctly. Remember that a lot of information about Global Warming was outright fictitious which outright hindered its adoption and continues to, to this day (some of it intentionally spread).

Heck global warming has been commoditized with many fixes and cures that are outright scams. Yet criticism of them is taken as criticism of Global Warming which is linked directly to how you are handling the subject.

Which... given the subject you are opening a LOT of unfortunate implications.

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General Discussion / Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« on: July 19, 2017, 02:21:39 am »
Quote from: Kansa on July 19, 2017, 02:19:10 am
In the gun example it's more like people denying that you got shot at all, it's not helpful to the situation doesn't add to the conversation and you are still going to bleed out despite them denying it.

No one is trying to stop me from getting medical attention and my bleeding wound is pretty good evidence.

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If you don't believe in global warming you aren't going to be a valuable voice in the conversation about how to stop it

If you don't believe in global warming there is a sizable body of evidence set against you. No one needs to shut you down.

As well even if we ignore that it suggests we should shut down dissenters (Intellectual Inbreeding hurray!)... Someone who doesn't believe in global warming can still have very valid points on environmental protection, pollution standards, economic concerns AND can offer a valuable insight that you will not get from a zealous supporter of global warming.

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General Discussion / Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« on: July 19, 2017, 02:01:45 am »
Quote from: Kansa on July 19, 2017, 01:47:03 am
But it's important to realise that there are some things that I am never going to experience just because of the way I was born and it's better to let those people talk on that subject instead of me

If we are talking about personal experiences you are somewhat correct, no one can experience something for you and you are the best advocate for said experiences. Empathy suggests that there is leeway but it is a decent rule of thumb for most situations.

If we are talking about a particular subject, one that personally affected you, then the answer is emphatically no. This is where the "Check your Privilege" because caustic for not only shutting down criticism but it perpetuates a sense of victimhood.

If I am talking about how I was shot on the subway, Only "I" could talk about how it felt to be shot, even other people who were shot didn't have "My" experience. I am not, however, a expert on gun violence, victimization, or a psychologist NOR is my viewpoint a collective viewpoint. When you extend my experience outside of a personal experience you are creating problems.

Finally just because I said I was shot and it felt a certain way it doesn't mean that you must take my personal account. I might be lying, I might be mistaken, I might have come to the wrong conclusions, my experience could be extremely niche. As well how much people value my Point of View is up to them as well.

Sure, you could say that being homeless is easy and contradict an actual homeless person. You would be wrong and people would be bound to point that out, but the way you don't handle it is to say "Hey, that homeless person had it rough, your privilege disavows you from speaking". (Still remember that guy who as an experiment was homeless for a day and said it was easy)

Second Finally.  The point of speaking of your experiences is to relate them to other people. They hear what you are saying, they ask questions, and they come to their own conclusions, conclusions that they might tell other people. What "Check your Privilege" wants is for you to take their conclusions and not to ask these questions.

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General Discussion / Re: Neonivek and Friend's Musings (Bad Ideas Ahoy!)
« on: July 19, 2017, 01:20:38 am »
Ok I just wanted to say something because this is apparently something new.

Just because you, or anyone, prescribes to an idea it doesn't mean you prescribe to that idea's ideology.

Believing that Welfare provides a suitable safety net and improves society doesn't make you a Liberal. Believing in strong military spending doesn't make you Conservative. Being a strong morally upstanding person doesn't make you a Christian.

When someone makes the argument that it is indeed the case they are doing one of two things

-1) They are trying to devalue the idea: Hitler ate sugar
-2) They are trying to convert or assert their ideology onto you: You believe in Animal Rights? Well you are basically a PETA member! You should also agree with this!

Secondly!

Just because an Ideology prescribes to an idea, it doesn't mean they uphold the spirit of that idea, and additionally just because someone prescribes to an ideology it doesn't mean they prescribe to all the ideas under that ideology.

A common defense one will see with an Ideology is that they aren't "Against" something or that they are "For" something, or someone who is caught doing something untoward will often defend themselves by using that Ideology as a defense ("I am Christian, we give to the poor. I wouldn't steal from them"). This is to outright deflect criticism or even control criticism.

For example a lot of ideologies say they openly accept and encourage criticism and they might even have essays on the importance of such. Yet when criticism is presented the ideology, or its members, might use its weight to shut it down.

Additionally they might even say they are open to criticism and that attempts to shut down dissent are by a small minority. Yet when that ideology actively goes out of its way not to discourage or even encourage such behavior or just excuses it, then you get the idea.

---

I am just feeling so betrayed... I don't know what to do...

What I especially hate about making this post is... I hate that I have to make it... Because there are plenty of groups that are unfairly marginalized or demonized because of select members they either have no control over, or who are included for no reason ("All animal rights is PETA"), or the group Isn't A POLITICAL OR IDEOLOGICAL AFFILIATION AND THUS MEMBERS ARE INFORMAL AT BEST OR AUTOMATIC AT WORSE ("Internet User"). You know, like how ALL GAMERS are somehow at fault because Anita Sarceesian is harassed and how OBAMA himself told Gamers to police this (It would be like saying that All Fishermen should police Pirates, because you know... Boats).

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General Discussion / Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« on: July 18, 2017, 11:57:54 pm »
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Pretending everyone starts out on equal footing in all they do is intellectually dishonest, as is the entire 'meritocracy' lie people like me tend to build up on top of that in order to feel superior.

Yes, that is right... It is almost like "Check your privilege" is completely bananas and fictitious.

Because it relies on the idea that people of a certain race of gender have the same footing. That they all have access or denial to the same privileges. As well as boiling down all privilege to gender and race and orientation rather then opportunity and social standing.

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